The lies that are not meant to deceive [Archive]

greglondon

11-19-2006, 05:22 AM

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9870

On 9 June 2006 seven civilians were blown up on a Gaza beach. The footage of the sole survivor, 10 year old Huda Ghalia, screaming amid the ruins of her family was so unbearable that Israel even muttered some apology. But only for a moment. Almost immediately, defence minister Amir Peretz announced a "propaganda offensive" to prove that Israeli shells were not to blame.

The army said witnesses were mistaken or lying; the hospital computers wrong or falsified; the staff's claims fallacious or malicious; the analysis of crater, shrapnel and injuries by former Pentagon battlefield analyst Marc Galasco befuddled. Yes, Israel's apologists conceded, the army had fired six shells on and around the beach. And true, one of those shells was unaccounted for. But by sheer coincidence, at the exact time as that shell went missing, the Ghalia family trod on a mine - one single mine on the entire beach - that Hamas, in a lunatic break from its operational history, had planted.

How, the world asked in incredulous rage, can they possibly think this ludicrous scenario will convince us? The answer, of course, is that they don't.

billythrilly7th

11-19-2006, 05:23 AM

For you, Bird Prey... http://www.targetofopportunity.com/jewish_occupation.gif

greglondon

11-19-2006, 05:25 AM

let the muddying of the waters commence

dclary

11-19-2006, 05:30 AM

Well, I've got to hand it to you, Greg. You certainly picked an authoritative source for your deceptive lie citation.

greglondon

11-19-2006, 05:38 AM

Well, I've got to hand it to you, Greg. You certainly picked an authoritative source for your deceptive lie citation.

If you have better sources about what happened, by all means, lets have a look.

dclary

11-19-2006, 05:40 AM

I don't have any sources on what happened. I just know that a full-sized live pig has a better chance of crawling out my a$$ than a socialist has of telling the truth about any topic without skewing it toward his or her own twisted, subversive worldview.

Bravo

11-19-2006, 05:41 AM

here's something more recent:

This street in Beit Hanoun is very, very quiet indeed. It's just a matter of hours since a number of Israeli shells fell on houses in this area, killing 18 people, including six children and two women.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6128614.stm

greglondon

11-19-2006, 05:46 AM

The point of the thread was really not the shelling at Gaza, but the lies being told about the shelling at Gaza. Incredible lies that no one could believe, told not so that the lies are believed, but told simply to muddy the waters, to divert attention, divert resources, and so on.

Not much different than Billy posting a Shrug in a discussion which distracts and diverts. Or someone getting indignant over some minor point and demands all attention be focused on that minor point because the original poster distorted some minor truth and oh the indignation. Not meant to forward the conversation or get to any deeper pattern, but to serve as a roadblock, a detour, a speedbump to slow things down.

There isn't a lot of actual conversation going on from certain of the right wing extremists in these forums, just lies not meant to decieve, but to divert and distract and muddy the waters.

Billy's pathetic map of the occupation by Israel of Muslim land is one example. It has nothing to do with the real issues in the middle east, but he can throw it in there to monkey the works. Like he can throw in a shrug and an apology, and then say it was funny.

I don't know all the specifics about what happened on that beach in Gaza. What I do know is that I recognized a deeper pattern in the lies not meant to decieve actually applies to certain posters over here.

It just gives me a better perspective of the stuff that goes on here.

Bravo

11-19-2006, 05:48 AM

greg, the sooner you realize that arguing w/ billy is like pissing in the wind, the more enjoyable your TIO experience will be.

gnite.

and good luck

dclary

11-19-2006, 05:48 AM

They probably shouldn't have built their houses there, Bravo.

You and I both know that there will never be peace in Israel/Gaza. Not while two peoples live there. It is an impasse of the bloodiest, worst sort.

billythrilly7th

11-19-2006, 05:50 AM

"BeLIEve"
U2
The Fly

Thank you and goodnight.

greglondon

11-19-2006, 05:50 AM

They probably shouldn't have built their houses there, Bravo..

are you talking about an israeli settlement in palestinian land by any chance?

Bravo

11-19-2006, 05:51 AM

You and I both know that there will never be peace in Israel/Gaza. Not while two peoples live there. It is an impasse of the bloodiest, worst sort.

i really dont think it's unsolvable.

but that's neither here nor there.

right now, the entire thing disgusts and disappoints me when i think about it too much.

i think ill go watch borat tonight.

possibly.

greglondon

11-19-2006, 05:52 AM

greg, the sooner you realize that arguing w/ billy is like pissing in the wind, the more enjoyable your TIO experience will be.

gnite.

and good luck

yes, I'm learning not to take Billy seriously.
Still working on that.
And a few others in the TIO group.

English Dave

11-19-2006, 05:52 AM

The BBC are Imperialst running dog Muslims. Nuf said.

dclary

11-19-2006, 05:56 AM

are you talking about an israeli settlement in palestinian land by any chance?

Both.

It's like two kids fighting in the back seat of a car, each trying to encroach the other's space for no other reasons than bordedom and trying to get a rise out of the other.

William Haskins

11-19-2006, 06:05 AM

at least israel felt enough shame and moral pressure to investigate it. had it been an islamic martyr blowing up some innocent little jews, there would have been proud and loud claims of responsibility and dancing in the streets.

greglondon

11-19-2006, 06:11 AM

at least israel felt enough shame and moral pressure to investigate it.

or cover it up with a bunch of BS.

You might as well say we "investigated" the gulf of tonkin.

Oh wait, can't compare Iraq to anything else, especially vietnam.

You might as well say we "investigated" if any innocent people ever got extraordinarily renditioned and tortured. Nope. no innocent people here.

How do you know, they never had a trial?

Oh, we know, because we "investigated".

Uh huh.

greglondon

11-19-2006, 06:13 AM

The Neocon Whisperer. Yeah, that's Greg.

Oh gawd, shoot me now...

:guns:

Never mind, I got it.

dclary

11-19-2006, 06:23 AM

So they blew them up just for the halibut?

dclary

11-19-2006, 06:24 AM

LOL. I just snorted milk out my nose.

greglondon

11-19-2006, 06:26 AM

Both.

It's like two kids fighting in the back seat of a car, each trying to encroach the other's space for no other reasons than bordedom and trying to get a rise out of the other.

Except one kid kills 1100 civilians and the other kills 150 military people.

Not to mention all the destruction that Israel rained down on the Lebanese population when they wiped out their civilian infrastructure.

Was every single lebanese killed in that 35 day war guilty of supporting Hezbollah? Was all of lebanon who suffered the destruction of all their infrastructure (billions of dollars worth, I think) worthy of suffering that destruction?

Those are yes/no questions.
There is no such thing as a yes-but question or a no-but question
when it comes to the morality of a war.

Q: Israel killed innocent and uninvolved lebanese civlians?
A: Yes-but hezbollah hides among the lebanese.
Q: Did all the lebanese killed by Israel hide hezbolla in their homes?
A: no-but some of them might have.
Q: did the people killed at that beach by israeli shells deserve to die?
A: No-but it was an accident on Israel's part, or they stepped on a mine.
Q: Did the poeple artilleried by Israel last month in a civilians sector deserve to die?
A: No-but it was a mixup in coordinates.

You want to see some peace in that area, then stop accepting yes-but and no-but answers. There are no excuses for mistakes that end up killing innocent poeple. If Israel will not own up to them, acknowledge they are responsible and make reparations, then every innocent killed is simply the seed that turn's into that dead innocent's brother's righteous cause to turn himself into a suicide bomber.

no more excuses. Someone needs to grow up and take responsibility if that mess is ever going to straighten out.

And if anyone argues "they started it" or "they're doing it too" or any of that h0rse$h!t, then they're being as immature as those two kids in the back seat of the car, but they're killing people while doing it, and they dont' deserve my support.

dclary

11-19-2006, 06:26 AM

I'm also guessing he's lucky it wasn't Kent State rent-a-cops, if you get my drift.

William Haskins

11-19-2006, 06:57 AM

There are no excuses for mistakes that end up killing innocent poeple.

acknowledge that there are also no excuses for deliberately strapping a bomb to oneself and targeting innocent civilians and i'll believe that you intend to debate in good faith and not simply spew talking points.

greglondon

11-19-2006, 09:07 AM

acknowledge that there are also no excuses for deliberately strapping a bomb to oneself and targeting innocent civilians and i'll believe that you intend to debate in good faith and not simply spew talking points.

Oh sod off. killing civilians is not acceptable no matter what. I spew no talking points. You want to debate in good faith, then bring some to the table. Have I typed anything in bad faith? No. Then you've got no basis for this crapola.

Now, about killing civilans being bad: how about that bit where 1,100 lebanese civlians were killed, one-third of them children, versus 150 israeli's killed, mostly military?

It's all fun and games until we talk real numbers around here.

blacbird

11-19-2006, 09:54 AM

acknowledge that there are also no excuses for deliberately strapping a bomb to oneself and targeting innocent civilians and i'll believe that you intend to debate in good faith and not simply spew talking points.

Give us a wee break, William. Nobody here has ever suggested or even implied such a thing, to my knowledge. It's such a universally accepted premise, no one even feels obliged to mention it. It's a deflection of the point even to bring it up.

caw

Robert Toy

11-19-2006, 02:48 PM

Now, about killing civilans being bad: how about that bit where 1,100 lebanese civlians were killed, one-third of them children, versus 150 israeli's killed, mostly military?

It's all fun and games until we talk real numbers around here.
Greg,
It appears that you keep making reference to how many Lebanese and/or Palestinian civilians were killed vs. Israeli soldiers, or how many Iraqi civilians have been killed since 2003, when the total numbers are miniscule as compared to what has and is happening in places like Darfur, Rwanda, etc.

Please don’t misunderstand me, I believe any civilian deaths in a war are horrible, basically war sucks.

I’m just extremely puzzled by your outrage of 1,100 civilians, or 8 civilians on a beach being killed, yet in Africa millions are slaughtered and not a peep.

Can you please answer a few simple questions?

I quote the numbers in the M.E. because (_____________).

I don’t quote the numbers in Africa because (____________).

greglondon

11-19-2006, 07:16 PM

I’m just extremely puzzled by your outrage of 1,100 civilians, or 8 civilians on a beach being killed, yet in Africa millions are slaughtered and not a peep. .

Is there a rule that as long as there is something -worse- going on than the topic at hand, we cannot talk about that topic?

Robert: Well, perhaps Israel's actions should be investigated, and actions should- (points off screen) What in the world can that be?

What? Where? I don't see anything.

Robert: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.

Because over here, it sounds an awful lot like a distraction while you switch glasses.

Robert Toy

11-19-2006, 07:34 PM

Is there a rule that as long as there is something -worse- going on than the topic at hand, we cannot talk about that topic?

Robert: Well, perhaps Israel's actions should be investigated, and actions should- (points off screen) What in the world can that be?

What? Where? I don't see anything.

Robert: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.

Because over here, it sounds an awful lot like a distraction while you switch glasses.
Greg, you should be a politician, an eighty-nine word post that avoided the question. If nothing else, you are amusing. ;)

William Haskins

11-19-2006, 07:43 PM

Give us a wee break, William. Nobody here has ever suggested or even implied such a thing, to my knowledge. It's such a universally accepted premise, no one even feels obliged to mention it. It's a deflection of the point even to bring it up.

caw

i'm disappointed that you've taken this tact, bird. i painted with no broad brush, and i think greg's reaction above more than illustrates the hysterics some will engage in when the inconvenient "deflection" of mentioning jewish children being blown apart in cold blood is brought up.

Bravo

11-19-2006, 08:10 PM

Greg, you should be a politician, an eighty-nine word post that avoided the question. If nothing else, you are amusing. ;)

you seriously counted?

William Haskins

11-19-2006, 08:30 PM

There are no excuses for mistakes that end up killing innocent poeple.

The rocket -one of eight that struck Israel during the day - killed a 57-year-old woman walking to the grocery store in the Israeli town of Sderot near the Gaza border and raised the specter of a large-scale offensive against militant rocket squads.

Militants affiliated with the Palestinians' ruling Hamas group and Islamic Jihad both claimed responsibility for the fatal Sderot attack, calling it retaliation for 19 civilians killed by Israeli shelling last week in the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun.

http://www.coloradodaily.com/articles/2006/11/16/news/beyond_boulder/news2.txt

and the beat goes on...

robeiae

11-19-2006, 08:30 PM

you seriously counted?You seriously checked to see if he did? :D

William Haskins

11-19-2006, 08:32 PM

is that the villain from penelope pitstop?

robeiae

11-19-2006, 08:35 PM

Yes, The Hooded Claw...I'll switch to Dick Dastardly, soon.

ColoradoGuy

11-19-2006, 08:35 PM

i think greg's reaction above more than illustrates the hysterics some will engage in when the inconvenient "deflection" of mentioning jewish children being blown apart in cold blood is brought up.
The problem, though, is that the undeniable fact of terrorists randomly murdering Israeli citizens trumps everything, putting all discussion of any Israeli actions in return out-of-bounds. That's not fair. For myself, I don't think tit-for-tat ever works, and is sometimes morally wrong besides. This is one of those times.

William Haskins

11-19-2006, 08:39 PM

it's an endless spiral, i know. i guess my point is that the blood of the beach-goers can no more stain the hands of israel than the blood of the grocery-shopping grandma stains the hands of palestinians.

the distinction i made above (and reiterated with the bolding of the phrase about claims of responsibility) is that israel at least acknowledges the shame of collateral civilian damage, while the militant groups in gaza trip over themselves to be the first to claim the scalps of dead jewish civilians.

ColoradoGuy

11-19-2006, 08:46 PM

it's an endless spiral, i know. i guess my point is that the blood of the beach-goers can no more stain the hands of israel than the blood of the grocery-shopping grandma stains the hands of palestinians.

the distinction i made above (and reiterated with the bolding of the phrase about claims of responsibility) is that israel at least acknowledges the shame of collateral civilian damage, while the militant groups in gaza trip over themselves to be the first to claim the scalps of dead jewish civilians.
Agreed. This is in part, I think, because Israel's actions are usually carried out by their duly organized forces, primarily the IDF, whereas much of the evil done by the other side is by a motley assortment of persons that runs the gamut from dreamers to homicidal psychopaths. So one can at least confront the Israeli government to justify what has been done in its name.

dclary

11-19-2006, 09:36 PM

I spew no talking points.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
:roll:

AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA

:roll::roll::roll:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! AHAHAHAAH!

:roll:

HAAHAHAHAHAH!

:roll::roll:

HAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHA!

Whew! Man do I feel better. Thanks, Greg!

robeiae

11-19-2006, 09:39 PM

the distinction i made above (and reiterated with the bolding of the phrase about claims of responsibility) is that israel at least acknowledges the shame of collateral civilian damage, while the militant groups in gaza trip over themselves to be the first to claim the scalps of dead jewish civilians.To that end, this just in:

http://news.bostonherald.com/international/view.bg?articleid=168062

Those mean Israelis, calling off an airstrike because of potential civilian casualies...while many of those civilians happily chant "death to Israel" and "death to America."

ColoradoGuy

11-19-2006, 10:44 PM

The problem I have is that by default, the blood of the beach-goers is on my hands, being an American taxpayer who, despite reason, is paying to arm one side of the conflict.
Good point. I want to have the right to question what they do with my money without having my integrity impugned

SC Harrison

11-19-2006, 11:09 PM

Good point. I want to have the right to question what they do with my money without having my integrity impugned

Exactly.

Unfortunately, if you express concern with what you perceive is an improper/inhumane/counterproductive approach to fighting terrorism (civilian casualties, civilian infrastructure), you are either labeled a terrorist sympathizer or an "appeaser".

If you express concern over the plight of Israel and the growing legitimacy of terrorist organizations you are labeled a racist hawk and a blind supporter of Israel.

And, if you're concerned about both (like me), you're either crazy or a fence-sitter who has an unrealistic world-view.

The thing is, each and every action has to stand on its own merits, regardless of what happened two weeks or two years or two decades ago. If said action takes us farther away from a resolution of the crisis, it is wrong.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 02:10 AM

The rocket -one of eight that struck Israel during the day - killed a 57-year-old woman walking to the grocery store in the Israeli town of Sderot near the Gaza border and raised the specter of a large-scale offensive against militant rocket squads.

Militants affiliated with the Palestinians' ruling Hamas group and Islamic Jihad both claimed responsibility for the fatal Sderot attack, calling it retaliation for 19 civilians killed by Israeli shelling last week in the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun.

http://www.coloradodaily.com/articles/2006/11/16/news/beyond_boulder/news2.txt

and the beat goes on...

Same post, different emphasis.

Great. one dead Israeli in retaliation for 19 dead palestinians.

now, show me some of that indignation directed at Israel.

Can't do it, canya?

It's all a spiral. out of control. either both sides are equally bad.
or we simply can't talk about anything.

Why don't you just say what your argument really boils down to:

He started it.

As if the Geneva Convention and the rules for a moral war
have an escape clause for whoever gets hit first.

whatever.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 02:12 AM

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:roll:

AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA

:roll: :roll: :roll:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! AHAHAHAAH!

:roll:

HAAHAHAHAHAH!

:roll: :roll:

HAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHA!

Whew! Man do I feel better. Thanks, Greg!

Hope you choked on your milk

dclary

11-20-2006, 02:30 AM

Hope you choked on your milk

Now, now, that's not nice!

greglondon

11-20-2006, 02:33 AM

Now, now, that's not nice!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:roll:
AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA
:roll: :roll: :roll:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! AHAHAHAAH!
:roll:
HAAHAHAHAHAH!
:roll: :roll:
HAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHA!

Whew! Man do I feel better. Thanks, dclary!

dclary

11-20-2006, 02:42 AM

See how nice that feels?

We all should laugh and smile more.

:D

blacbird

11-20-2006, 03:12 AM

See how nice that feels?

We all should laugh and smile more.

So should Dick Cheney.

caw

William Haskins

11-20-2006, 03:51 AM

Just to get back on track, I want to point out that Israel has a lot to lose by not acting as contrite as possible, regardless of a highly suspect - in fact - absurd conclusion to the beach affair.

of course. any errant violence on israel's part provokes international condemnation. they have far more to lose than the militants who earn sympathy for every jewish limb they can strew across a mall or public street. we are told to try and understand their rage and then metaphorically pat jewish widows and parents of dead children on the head and say, "there, there... it's a shame perhaps... but you people really do ask for it..."

Bravo

11-20-2006, 04:07 AM

it's an endless spiral, i know. i guess my point is that the blood of the beach-goers can no more stain the hands of israel than the blood of the grocery-shopping grandma stains the hands of palestinians.

of course. any errant violence on israel's part provokes international condemnation. they have far more to lose than the militants who earn sympathy for every jewish limb they can strew across a mall or public street. we are told to try and understand their rage and then metaphorically pat jewish widows and parents of dead children on the head and say, "there, there... it's a shame perhaps... but you people really do ask for it..."

very poor equivocation throughout.

isreal is a nation, therefore, israel's actions represent the nation.

militants by their nature are not part of any nation. furthermore, palestine is not a state, it never has been, and judging from the way things have been going, it never will be.

any indiv. w/in palestinian can take up arms and launch a few rockets into israel or whatever. but there is neither an army, a govt, or any legal means to stop them b/c guess what: there is no state.

any attempts to create a state have been wrecked mostly by the occupation.

and yes, you can go back and say that arafat stole money and all that, but the bottomline is he did condemn terror and he did recognize israel for 15 years. it got none of them anywhere b/c israel controlled their air, water, land and made damn well clear who was in charge and what sort of swiss cheesed state theyll get.

they sat there and carved palestine into small little prisons and any1 anwhere living in those conditions for their whole lives will go insane.

anyone.

and comparing islamic jihad's statements w the statements of the israeli govt is just nonsense. it might make just a bit more sense, if you then went and quoted every right-wing israeli nut who thinks the palestinians are cockroaches on their god-given land.

William Haskins

11-20-2006, 04:17 AM

Your point of view really bothers me, Haskins. I don't know why I can't instill any outrage in you over a trampled people resorting to desperate measures versus a nation armed to the teeth via your tax-paying dollar, invading at any provocation.

obviously, it's because i'm a bad person.

Unique

11-20-2006, 04:18 AM

Bravo

11-20-2006, 04:21 AM

People who choose to make themselves shields (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/19/AR2006111900210.html) shouldn't complain when they end up targets.

"Instead of leaving the buildings, the homeowners remained inside and were quickly joined by crowds of supporters who gathered on balconies, rooftops and in the streets outside.
"Death to Israel. Death to America," the crowds chanted."

"The first incident occurred just before midnight at the home of Mohammed Baroud, a leader of the Popular Resistance Committees, in the northern town of Beit Lahiya. Baroud oversees rocket attacks on Israel.''

so when they use civil disobedience that's even wrong?

what the hell can these ppl do? honestly?

if they launch a rocket, after israel blows up a house of women and kids, theyre the bad guys.

if they form human shields, theyre the bad guys.

what do you want from them exactly?

just to roll over and let israel's tanks and missiles wipe them out?

William Haskins

11-20-2006, 04:21 AM

your first mistake is assuming i feel no outrage at the plight of the palestinians, BoP.

Bravo

11-20-2006, 04:23 AM

btw, let's rewind the tape to when these rocket attacks happened.

they happened after israel flagrantly broke the 16 month cease-fire w the beach attack:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/

William Haskins

11-20-2006, 04:28 AM

rewinding is an endless (and rather futile) exercise in the middle east, qaz.

William Haskins

11-20-2006, 04:30 AM

It's not my mistake, Haskins, if you don't express it. All I have witnessed is you standing firmly in the Israeli camp. Now that I know better, I can reassess your position with the assumption that you are at least as sympathetic to the Palestinian plight? Am I correct?

not that much time has passed since i stated a clear case in this very forum for palestinian statehood, withdrawl to the 67 borders and huge assistance to the burgeoning state. i have never played black and white with this issue.

Bravo

11-20-2006, 04:31 AM

rewinding is an endless (and rather futile) exercise in the middle east, qaz.

sadly, very true.

Unique

11-20-2006, 04:34 AM

From the article:
"An apology was initially issued to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz in which the IDF said it "regretted the strike on innocents," but Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, the IDF's chief of general staff, later said the military is investigating the possibility that it was not naval artillery that struck the beach."

And
"Hamas has stuck to the cease-fire it announced in February 2005, but other groups did not sign on and have continued attacks against Israel."

"The militants got into a car, which the Israeli air force then attacked, according to the IDF. A large explosion followed, killing three people. The IDF said the blast was likely due to explosives in the car."

So how do you tell who's who in conditions like this?

dclary

11-20-2006, 04:34 AM

sadly, very true.

I would be willing to give Esau a second bowl of chili if it would make things better.

Bravo

11-20-2006, 04:34 AM

My apologies, Haskins. I must have missed it.

youre forgetting the long talk we had before w the peace plan, BoP.

i did too actually.

dclary

11-20-2006, 04:35 AM

But the Baal statues still gotta go.

Bravo

11-20-2006, 04:42 AM

No, Brav, I'm not.

I mistake a lot of things, Brav, but I know a visceral response when I see one. I submit that Haskins is struggling with his even-hand, even as I am. . . . and as you are.

okay fair enough.

i honestly forgot about that discussion until he mentioned it again.

William Haskins

11-20-2006, 05:21 AM

well sh1t... no one has any chance at all with you then. that's some pretty drastic moving of the goalposts.

i'm remarkably consistent in what i believe.

SC Harrison

11-20-2006, 04:51 PM

I blame Israel for provoking the the recent conflict by evacuating land and trying to negotiate a truce.

They deserved 120 rocket attacks and kidnapped soldiers.

Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers to negotiate a prisoner exchange because it had worked well in the past, but it backfired on them.

The removal of settlements in Gaza was the right thing to do, but even the IDF knew it wouldn't stop attacks from militants. Removing (at least some) settlements from the West Bank is also the right thing to do, but it won't bring about instant peace either.

MattW

11-20-2006, 04:53 PM

Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers to negotiate a prisoner exchange because it had worked well in the past, but it backfired on them. Good. They had played Israel into a game of concessions, and finally asked for too much. Heartless, uncaring thugs who have no regard for the life of anyone - including Palestinians.

The removal of settlements in Gaza was the right thing to do, but even the IDF knew it wouldn't stop attacks from militants. Removing (at least some) settlements from the West Bank is also the right thing to do, but it won't bring about instant peace either. If the attacks continue, who can blame the Irsaelis for not wanting to go to the table ever again? Apparently everyone...

SC Harrison

11-20-2006, 05:10 PM

If the attacks continue, who can blame the Irsaelis for not wanting to go to the table ever again? Apparently everyone...

When people say, "The Palistinians don't want peace", they're only partially right. There are elements who have gained power in the occupied territories only because of the conflict. Through their provocations and Israel's responses, they have convinced many that their way is the only way. To them, a peaceful solution is anathema, because their role becomes superfluous.

And that's why negotiation must continue, because it may be the only way to minimize the influence of the militants.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 05:18 PM

I'd like to hear what you have to say.

***** *** ** *** **** *********

I'm not telling any Israeli widow that she asked for it.
I'm pointing at the Israel's attack on Lebanon as a whole
in the last fracas, pointing out 1,100 lebanese civlians dead
and 150 Israeli military dead, and saying
"that isn't making anything better."

Human shield?

You think if we were fighting some country or terrorist group,
and they figured out where one of our generals lived
and blew up his house and killed the general
and his wife and kids and his neighbors who came over to visit,
you think we'd call the kid a "human shield"?

**** **** ** ****

The rules of warfare might have something to say about civilians
who place themselves at a military base, but if you blow up
an apartment building, there is no such thing as "human shields"
to excuse away the cilivians you just killed.

Israel's last fracas killed 1,100 lebanese, mostly civilians, and
one-third of them were children. And to invoke "human shield"
as a way to erase the immorality of killing some 8 year old
in an indiscriminate arial bombardment is disgusting.

It's no better than the suicide bomber who uses whatever
excuse they tell themselves to strap on a vest and blow
themselves up in a market, killing all the civilians there.

The only difference is when you simply look at numbers
and take away all the excuses from both side, you tend
to see stuff like the last Israel invasion of Lebanon.

Israel killed 1,100 people, mostly civilians, one-third children.
Hezbollah killed 150 people, mostly Israeli military.

Without the spin, without the "human shield" crap,
without the melodrama and all the other excuses
that get thrown around, if you just look at the numbers,
you see a different story.

Bravo

11-20-2006, 05:56 PM

yea greg, much better w that.

thank you.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 06:37 PM

Israel's invasion into Lebanon was not only a catastrophic military failure, but a public relations disaster as well. And of course, the lives that were lost and the devastation brought have only bolstered anti-Israeli resolve.

But I'm interested in a solution. What do you think?

I think the piece missing is the admission that Israel's invasion
was not only a military failure and a PR disaster,
but that it was flat out morally wrong.

Why was it morally wrong?
Because Israel's invasion into the entire nation of Lebanon
effectively punished, killed, damaged, and destroyed
an entire nation for the actions of a few.

Collective punishment is morally reprehensible.

The solution is (1) an acknowledgement that the
Isreali reaction to Lebannon and Palestine
has been collective punishment and
(2) dealing with the terrorists as separate from
the civlians.

If Israel cared about dead palestinian and dead
lebanese civilians as much as it cares about
dead israeli civilians, if it took actions that
minimized civlian deaths, regardless of their
nationality, and if it restrained its military operations
to this effect, that would be the first big step
to a peaceful solution.

It would help if Isreal actually gave a damn about
Palestinian civlians in general. Maybe do a little
something to help them get their own democratic
government up and running rather than spending
all these years delaying it and keeping the palestinians
as stateless refugees. That would help.

Israel's latest round with their "barrier" solution
seems more of the same attitude of:
"I got mine, you figure your own damn problems"
They appear to have taken on the attitude that
they will seal off the barrier, keep out all Palestinians,
and collectively punish them through border restrictions.

I've been in Israel. You can't be an isolationist
when you are on top of your neighbors like they are.
People commute across the borders to go to work,
get groceries, day to day stuff. The barrier will
be good to seal an otherwise porous border, but
if it is used to enforce curfews on an entire population,
then it's going to make things worse.

If Israel wants the palestinians to work with them,
they need to start working with the palestinians.
And working with them as distinctly different than
the terrorists from palestinian lands.
Guilt by geography isn't going to solve this problem.

It seems like Israel is even in its best approach
subscribing to Adam Smith's "invisible hand" idea.
That if Israel simply takes care of its own best
interests, and lifts not a finger for its neighbors,
that somehow it will work out.

Or if it doesn't work out, somehow they are free
of any and all blame.

Israel and Palestine are an arranged marriage.
And in a marriage, you sometimes have to
take care of your spouse before you take
care of yourself. There have been days when
my wife's gotten sick and I take the day off
to take care of her. There have been times
I've slept in a fiberglass chair in the emergency
room just so I could be nearby when she woke up.

And Israel can either try to reconcile and help
its neighbor, or it can file for divorce in a
never ending war of tit-for-tat and escalations.

Opty

11-20-2006, 06:45 PM

The point of the thread was really not the shelling at Gaza, but the lies being told about the shelling at Gaza...

It just gives me a better perspective of the stuff that goes on here.

Yes, because there have never been lies told about Israeli bombings (http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/corruption-of-media.html)before.

:rolleyes:

greglondon

11-20-2006, 06:53 PM

Yes, because there have never been lies told about Israeli bombings (http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/corruption-of-media.html)before.

:rolleyes:

Israel killed 1,100 lebanese, mostly civilians, about 300 were children.
Hezbolla killed 150 israelis, mostly military.

or are those lies too?

Opty

11-20-2006, 07:05 PM

very poor equivocation throughout.

isreal is a nation, therefore, israel's actions represent the nation.

militants by their nature are not part of any nation. furthermore, palestine is not a state, it never has been, and judging from the way things have been going, it never will be.

any indiv. w/in palestinian can take up arms and launch a few rockets into israel or whatever. but there is neither an army, a govt, or any legal means to stop them b/c guess what: there is no state.

That's simply poor semantics.

"Palestine" (the Palestinian people) have elected leaders, therefore, a government of sorts (Palestinian Authority).

Hamas won the last round of elections earlier this year.

Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization/entity.

Therefore, if Palestine were to become a nation, it would be a terrorist nation, considering it's, you know, already run by terrorists (Hamas rules the Palestinian Authority).

they sat there and carved palestine into small little prisons and any1 anwhere living in those conditions for their whole lives will go insane.

anyone.

Yes, much like an entire nation of people who've been slaughtered and persecuted for a millenium who, the day after their official nation was formed, were subsequently bombed/attacked by every surrounding nation, and have been every day ever since, are also likely on the verge of insanity.

and comparing islamic jihad's statements w the statements of the israeli govt is just nonsense. it might make just a bit more sense, if you then went and quoted every right-wing israeli nut who thinks the palestinians are cockroaches on their god-given land.

Not really. Quoting the ruling party of the Palestinian people, who just happen to be Islamic jihadists, is just as applicable as quoting the ruling party of Israel.

I see no difference.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 07:11 PM

Yes, much like an entire nation of people who've been slaughtered and persecuted for a millenium who,

Oh, well, I guess it's OK if they kill a few civilians, then.
I mean, everyone's done it to them for millenium,
they ought to be able to get back at a few now, right?

How does that work, anyway?
Do they get coupons they can redeem later or what?
Is it like free passes that get handed out?
Is someone keeping count?
Diebold?

If someone killed my great-great-great-great-grandfather unjustly,
can I get a coupon or a pass for an otherwise immoral killing?
Where do I file the paperwork for something like that?

Opty

11-20-2006, 07:24 PM

They have every right to defend themselves. I don't like it when innocent civilians die, but overall they are not intentionally aiming at civilian targets (though, it does seem that the beach was a very poor decision on the ship commander's part).

Hamas DOES intentionally fire at civilian targets with the intent of killing innocent people and then hide like cowards behind their own people when attacking Israel.

Both sides have fault, but the egregiousness of the Palestinian Hamas far outweighs any atrocities committed by Israel.

Doesn't make those committed by Israel right, but it does make your fervent defense of Palestinians and condemnation of Israel misplaced, at best, and transparently bigoted, at worst.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 07:35 PM

the egregiousness of the Palestinian Hamas
far outweighs
any atrocities committed by Israel.

death tolls for the latest fracas:
Israel killed 1,100 lebanese, mostly civilians, about 300 were children.
Hezbolla killed 150 israelis, mostly military.

Out of curiosity, how do you define "far outweigh"?

Opty

11-20-2006, 07:39 PM

By not myopically focusing on one "fracas," and instead looking at the totality of atrocities Hamas and other terrorist groups have levied on the Israelis over the past 50+ years.

William Haskins

11-20-2006, 07:46 PM

O.K. So how do you deal with terrorists separate from civilians? Is there a practical, applicable solution?

it's tough when they set up their rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoods for their own cowardly purposes, not the least of which is hoping their own people get killed so they can play the civilian-massacre PR card.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 07:53 PM

By not myopically focusing on one "fracas," and instead looking at the totality of atrocities Hamas and other terrorist groups have levied on the Israelis over the past 50+ years.

So, like I said, how does this work?
Is there a counting system that keeps track of the 50 year period?
And then someone hands out free passes or what?
Then when you kill a civilian today,
do you give someone that coupon?

Do the coupons expire? Appantly they last at least 50 years,
or a millenium, depending on which quote from you I use.

Also, if we hand out coupons for all the nasty things done
to the ancestors if Israel for the last 50 or 1000 years,
how many coupons got handed out to the folks who
were living in the middle east and got kicked out when
Israel was formed?

I'm just trying to figure out how this
system of eternal tit-for-tat works.

Opty

11-20-2006, 07:55 PM

Your entire argument is predicated on the League of Nation's right to replace a nation with a new one, and reassign the understandably resentful to a "tent"-ament without just compensation.

Actually, no it's not, but that's a convenient way you've tried to recraft it.

However, if you'd like to talk about "reassigning understandably resentful" residents without "just compensation," I should point out to you that much of the land that was given to the Jews was actually already owned by them, as several had already bought land from the Ottomans, because no one was really living in those areas.

Or, we could go back to the first Roman-Jewish war, when the Romans slaughtered the Jews and drove them out of that land (originally) by force.

Opty

11-20-2006, 07:58 PM

So, like I said, how does this work?
Is there a counting system that keeps track of the 50 year period?
And then someone hands out free passes or what?
Then when you kill a civilian today,
do you give someone that coupon?

Do the coupons expire? Appantly they last at least 50 years,
or a millenium, depending on which quote from you I use.

Also, if we hand out coupons for all the nasty things done
to the ancestors if Israel for the last 50 or 1000 years,
how many coupons got handed out to the folks who
were living in the middle east and got kicked out when
Israel was formed?

I'm just trying to figure out how this
system of eternal tit-for-tat works.

Well, apparently in your world, it works this way:

Palestinians and terrorists intentionally slaughter innocent people by any violent means necessary, including using their own people as human shields and strapping bombs to children, nearly every day for over 50 years = Brave, heroic, and deserved/commendable.

Israeli's unintentionally kill innocent people as result of retaliation against terrorists = Unforgiveable and damnable.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 08:10 PM

Well, apparently in your world, it works this way:

Palestinians and terrorists intentionally slaughter innocent people by any violent means necessary, including using their own people as human shields and strapping bombs to children, nearly every day for over 50 years = Brave, heroic, and deserved/commendable.

Israeli's unintentionally kill innocent people as result of retaliation against terrorists = Unforgiveable and damnable.

Right. If anyone holds Israel accountable for its actions,
then they obviously aren't holding anyone else accountable.
That's exactly what I said. Oh wait. No it isn't.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=932298&postcount=27

killing civilians is not acceptable no matter what. You want to debate in good faith, then bring some to the table.

Israel wiped out Lebanon's civlian infrastructure.
Here's a nice little map of all the locations they bombed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Locations_bombed_Aug13.jpg
Apparently, Lebanon was virtually infested with human shields.

You wanna tell me that this had anything to do with
something done against Israel 50 years ago?
Or do you want to start dealing with the mess going on today?

greglondon

11-20-2006, 08:21 PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/Locations_bombed_Aug13.jpg

From the jpg:

electrical power plants and related fuel tanks destroyed

factories (food industries), warehouses, dams, SCHOOLS,
TV and radio stations, churches, mosques,
HOSPITALS, AMBULANCES, and a UN BASE were bombed.

estimated 2.5 billion dollars in damage to infrastructure

more than 10 thousand tons of oil polluting 80 km of sea coast.

---

So, how many coupons does this redeem?
I assume you agree that this was unwarranted destruction.
2 billion dollars of civilian infrastructure wiped out and
hospitals bombed and schools and power plants destroyed,
and massive oil spills created, didn't really have anything to
do with an actual hezbollah target, did they?

So, if this went over the top, how much?
How many coupons did Israel cash in on this operation?
When will Israel overstep the bounds of moral warfare enough
that it finally uses up all its coupons and people can
legitmately criticize them for breaking various rules of warfare?

Because as long as they have coupons,
apparently no one can criticize them

Who knew there were free passes to the Geneva Convention...
Oh wait, Shrub is still president. I see....

billythrilly7th

11-20-2006, 08:54 PM

You wanna tell me that this had anything to do with
something done against Israel 50 years ago? Or do you want to start dealing with the mess going on today?
Greg London 9:40AM

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=934409&postcount=338

And given that we overthrew the democratic government in Iran back in 1953 to install a dictator to control their oil for a quarter century,what animal are we?
Greg London 7:13AM

"I haven't seen this many contradictions since Peter went to work at the car wash...we have a clip? Oh no clip. I thought we had a clip."
Stewie Griffin

greglondon

11-20-2006, 09:02 PM

that dictator remained in power until Reagan was elected, Billy.
Slightly more recent on the scale of things than, say FDR.

billythrilly7th

11-20-2006, 09:08 PM

that dictator remained in power until Reagan was elected, Billy.
Slightly more recent on the scale of things than, say FDR.

Yeah. 26 years ago. Slightly is right.

But I quote you...
"Or do you want to start dealing with the mess going on today?"

Excellent, sir. I've been applying that to everything. I'm glad you're on board.
:)

Good day.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 09:12 PM

But I quote you...
"Or do you want to start dealing with the mess going on today?".

Click the link, Billy, I was asking about an animal totem.
Not exactly the same as trying to solve a current political problem.
You want to have a serious discussion now?
or talk about the coyote and fox?

greglondon

11-20-2006, 09:14 PM

"Sorry, DrSpork, it belongs to the Apaches now. They were here long before you or Mr. Smith.

:roll:

Bravo

11-20-2006, 09:24 PM

how timely:

Since the Holocaust, it has been almost impossible to hide large-scale crimes against humanity. In our communicative world, few modern catastrophes are concealed from the public eye. And yet, Ilan Pappe unveils, one such crime has been erased from the global public memory: the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1948. But why is it denied, and by whom? The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine offers an investigation of this mystery.
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670/sr=8-1/qid=1164045252/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-6663446-8904662?ie=UTF8&s=books

billythrilly7th

11-20-2006, 09:27 PM

Click the link, Billy, I was asking about an animal totem.
Not exactly the same as trying to solve a current political problem.
You want to have a serious discussion now?
or talk about the coyote and fox?

I am having a serious discussion. I love your quote. What you said is my general philosophy and I've been stating that for a long time...

"Or do you want to start dealing with the mess going on today?"

We're all on the same page finally.

"Eureka, my garbage can is full!"
Alice Kramden
Honeymooners.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 09:32 PM

I am having a serious discussion. I love your quote. What you said is my general philosophy and I've been stating that for a long time...

"Or do you want to start dealing with the mess going on today?"

We're all on the same page finally.

Good, then please explain the recent fracas in Israel whereby

Israel killed 1,100 lebanese, mostly civilian, and one-third were children
Hezbolla killed 150 israelis, mostly military.

As well as teh wide spread bombing campaign Israel launched against
Lebonon causing 2.5 Billion dollars worth of damages.

No. wait. Let me do it for you....

Sorry Lebanon.
:Shrug:

That's your standard reply, isn't it?

greglondon

11-20-2006, 09:35 PM

how timely:

http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670/sr=8-1/qid=1164045252/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-6663446-8904662?ie=UTF8&s=books

waiting for the palestinian holocaust deniers to come out of the woodwork.

William Haskins

11-20-2006, 09:36 PM

again, you refuse to factor in the fact that those brave hezbollah freedom fighters had no qualms about launching their attacks from civilian neighborhoods.

billythrilly7th

11-20-2006, 09:38 PM

Sorry Lebanon.
:Shrug:

That's your standard reply, isn't it?

It works in many cases.

Not even close in this one.

I'm not "sorry, Lebanon" at all.

Try next time to not have a terrorist organization running operations within your border, kidnapping and murdering Israeli soldiers and hiding amongst civilians and you won't run into these types of problems in the future, Lebanon. Good luck.

MattW

11-20-2006, 09:43 PM

Greg, what is the starting point and end point of your 1150 and 150 figure?

Where is it convenient to draw the line? Does the clock begin when the first Israeli set foot in Lebanon? Or does it begin with the months of rocket attacks that provoked the invasion?

Also, does Israel hate the Lebanese people so much that they drop leaflets warning them that they are harboring terrorists in areas that are about to be bombed? Evil!

Attacking property and infrastructure is not disallowed - it is only questionable as an effective tactic at winning support, or driving support away from those in power who continue to support or turn a blind eye to the rocket launchers and bomb factories next to their schools, mosques, and hospitals.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 09:46 PM

again, you refuse to factor in the fact that those brave hezbollah freedom fighters had no qualms about launching their attacks from civilian neighborhoods.

And you refuse to factor in that unless those civilians actively assisted
in the launching of those missiles then the rules of warfare say they are
off limits as legitimate military targets.

ColoradoGuy

11-20-2006, 09:47 PM

I think it's important to make the distinction that past events, even long-past events, help us to understand the present. That understanding is good, even crucial. Past events, however, do not dictate what we must do in the present.

It seems to me, as a general statement, that Israelis do a relatively poor job at trying to understand why the Palestinians feel as they do, while at the same time demanding that we, particularly Americans who fund their actions, understand the many past crimes against Jews.

Reasonable Palestinians exist--I know many such people. If these moderate Palestinians really knew Israel recognized and understood their viewpoint, their loss, even better regretted their loss, then I think much of the support for radical Palestinian terrorists would disappear.

That should be the strategy, I think: undercut the terrorists by doing what they fear most, which is offering understanding and compassion of the Palestinian plight. In return for that, I think, the land issues could be resolved, even if it meant most Palestinians would never get back what many of them regard as their unjustly appropriated land.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 09:53 PM

Greg, what is the starting point and end point of your 1150 and 150 figure?

Where is it convenient to draw the line? Does the clock begin when the first Israeli set foot in Lebanon? Or does it begin with the months of rocket attacks that provoked the invasion?

You don't get it.

It is -NEVER- acceptable to kill civilians.
I don't care what side you're on.
I don't care what side of the map the civilians are on.
If the person is not engaged in military activities,
they are not an acceptable target.

And they are not excused away because
someone nearby launched a rocket or fired a mortar.

Guerrilla war sucks.
That doesn't make the rules of warfare go away.

Israel killed 1,100 lebanese, mostly civilians.
400 of them were children.

That is not acceptable.
There is no moral justification for this.
Look at that map I posted that shows the
locations in Lebanon that were bombed by Israel.
Look at the damage done by Israel to lebanon's
CIVILIAN infrastructure. 2.5 billion in damages.

William Haskins

11-20-2006, 09:54 PM

And you refuse to factor in that unless those civilians actively assisted
in the launching of those missiles then the rules of warfare say they are
off limits as legitimate military targets.

i do nothing of the sort.

by your logic, any military action, right or wrong, conducted from civilian areas is immune to retaliation.

greglondon

11-20-2006, 10:01 PM

If these moderate Palestinians really knew Israel recognized and understood their viewpoint, their loss, even better regretted their loss, then I think much of the support for radical Palestinian terrorists would disappear.

That's basically what I tried to say here:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=934527&postcount=87

But I don't think it is enough that moderate isrealis simply "understand"
moderate palestinians, they need to help them, or at the very least,
make sure they stop making life difficult for moderate palestinians
by blowing up the apartment building they live in because someone
launched a rocket from that point or by closing borders.

If all Israel does is say "I feel your pain" and then shut its doors,
that's not going to go too far. Is Israel planning on compensating
lebannon for teh civilian deaths and damage it caused?

MattW

11-20-2006, 10:01 PM

And you refuse to factor in that unless those civilians actively assisted
in the launching of those missiles then the rules of warfare say they are
off limits as legitimate military targets.
Hezbollah exists to violate international law:

In international conflicts, guerrillas must distinguish themselves from the civilian population if they are preparing or engaged in an attack. At a minimum, guerrillas must carry their arms openly. (Protocol I, Art. 44 (http://spj.org/gc-text5.asp?#44), Sec. 3)

Under the earlier Geneva Conventions, which are more widely recognized, a guerrilla army must have a well-defined chain of command, be clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry arms openly and observe the laws of war. (Convention III, Art. 4 (http://spj.org/gc-text3.asp?#4), Sec. 2)

Bravo

11-20-2006, 10:04 PM

Where is it convenient to draw the line? Does the clock begin when the first Israeli set foot in Lebanon? Or does it begin with the months of rocket attacks that provoked the invasion?

please show me a single rocket attack from lebanon before israel invaded.

thank you

and please hurry, so i can show you the UN observers' list of thousands of violations israel committed on the border.

MattW

11-20-2006, 10:14 PM

You don't get it.I'm sure I don't.

It is -NEVER- acceptable to kill civilians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1197051.stm

Do you see a difference in intentionally attacking civilians and attacking civilian areas populated by terrorists?

Israel killed 1,100 lebanese, mostly civilians.
400 of them were children.

In this narrowly defined time frame, yes.

Look at the damage done by Israel to lebanon's
CIVILIAN infrastructure. 2.5 billion in damages.What is the value of the property GIVEN to Palestinians by Israel? What of the greenhouses gifted to them by Jewish philanthropists that were subsequently trashed? What of the buses, businesses, and personal property destroyed by hundreds of rocket and suicide attacks? Does that tally not matter because it happened first?

greglondon

11-20-2006, 10:23 PM

Hezbollah exists to violate international law:

Yes, please show me the international law that says the presence of illegal combatants violating international law forfeits civilian status of an entire nation.

And as a matter of course, Israel has also violated international law. Sharon wouldn't go to England back in 2005 because he was afraid of getting arrested for war crimes

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9669

English Dave

11-20-2006, 10:49 PM

Under the earlier Geneva Conventions, which are more widely recognized, a guerrilla army must have a well-defined chain of command, be clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry arms openly and observe the laws of war. (Convention III, Art. 4 (http://spj.org/gc-text3.asp?#4), Sec. 2)

Didn't the US sign up for the Geneva Convention and then invent Combatant non -combaant-combatants or something to circumvent it?

MattW

11-20-2006, 10:54 PM

I'll play your game.please show me a single rocket attack from lebanon before israel invaded.

At around 9AM local time, on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah initiated rocket attacks on Israeli military positions...and the town of Shlomi.

Is that too far from the Israeli invasion to count?

Peace terms from the previous conflict put the burden on Lebanon to quash Hezbollah. They failed to do so, Israel was faced with provocation, and responded with force.

and please hurry, so i can show you the UN observers' list of thousands of violations israel committed on the border.The same UN observers who were feeding intelligence on Israeli troop movements to Hezbollah? Sure, tell me all about these neutral observers...

Nobody's hands are clean.

Bravo

11-20-2006, 11:08 PM

I'll play your game.

finally. :)

Is that too far from the Israeli invasion to count?

no it's not actually,but this was your original statement:

Originally Posted by MattW
Where is it convenient to draw the line? Does the clock begin when the first Israeli set foot in Lebanon? Or does it begin with the months of rocket attacks that provoked the invasion?

what months of bombardment might that have been?

Peace terms from the previous conflict put the burden on Lebanon to quash Hezbollah. They failed to do so, Israel was faced with provocation, and responded with force.

no there was no "peace terms" or peace treaty, but nice try. israel left unilaterally and never underwent negotiations w/ lebanon. and that left certain issues like maps for landmines and the sheeba farms unresolved.

The same UN observers who were feeding intelligence on Israeli troop movements to Hezbollah? Sure, tell me all about these neutral observers.

please show some credible evidence of something like that.

p.s. is that why israel killed the observers?

Nobody's hands are clean.

so why did we arm one side to the teeth?

greglondon

11-20-2006, 11:08 PM

Peace terms from the previous conflict put the burden on Lebanon to quash Hezbollah. They failed to do so

and therefore the rules of war regarding civilians do not apply to Israel.

DeborahM

11-20-2006, 11:08 PM

They say a picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ8fSkSMhjw&eurl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ8fSkSMhjw&eurl)=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyHQFyO_fu4&eurl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyHQFyO_fu4&eurl)=

http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/airstrike_vid_exp.html (http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/airstrike_vid_exp.html)

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2759420/share (http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2759420/share)

http://grouper.com/video/MediaDetails.aspx?id=1464726 (http://grouper.com/video/MediaDetails.aspx?id=1464726)

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184167.php (http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184167.php)

http://www.asuwebdevil.com/issues/2006/09/07/opinions/697545 (http://www.asuwebdevil.com/issues/2006/09/07/opinions/697545)

http://pmw.org.il/bulletins_aug2006.htm#top (http://pmw.org.il/bulletins_aug2006.htm#top)

greglondon

11-20-2006, 11:13 PM