Biblical themes

[kdnxdr]

This might be the thread that bites the dust quick but, here goes. I've noticed that quite a few poems have had bibilical themes worked into them one way or another, even when the poem was not religious.

It seems to me that alot of poems that seem to be anti-religious use biblical themes. Are there certain statements that, as poets, regardless if we are christian or not, are stated best with these bible based images?

Curious if anyone would like to comment on this phenomenon.

kid

[Perks]

It's just so pervasive and accessible in Western culture. It's there to illuminate a thought or there to be lampooned by the scornful. Whatever one's religious affiliation, The Bible is a gem mine for poetic reference and a touchstone for a vast readership.

[Rivana]

Well I can only speak for myself but for me it's:
*Common ground for most -if I say Angel, you've got a pretty good idea what I'm talking about. If I say 'eye for an eye', that works too.
*Write what you know. I'm not very familiar with say Hindu tradition so I stick to my bases.
*The bible lends itself well to poetic wording.
*Mythology is always a nice area to work in, no matter ones own spiritual views. I can write poems about both Valkyries and Angels without batting an eyelid and they will both have a message and a voice.
* Well known, mythology, theology etc have ready made connotations. They add a certain air of mystique to your work.
*Sometimes it's just about religion and then you use religious phrases etc because it's a large part of many people's lives...
Religion leaves no one unaffected. That is a powerful paradigm to pick pieces from.

Hm...that's about what I can think up right now. I'm getting a bit tired.

[veinglory]

I use a lot of Christian source material because it is a source of symbolism that I share with most of the audience. Si ti can serve as a great short hand to get to the specific point being made. I am curious about your statement that the poems are anti-religious? I know that would not be the case with me.

[wordsheff]

It's just so pervasive and accessible in Western culture. It's there to illuminate a thought or there to be lampooned by the scornful. Whatever one's religious affiliation, The Bible is a gem mine for poetic reference and a touchstone for a vast readership.

second that

[Bret]

If you are familiar with your scriptures (whatever your scriptures are) it would be foolish not to incorporate themes and allusions from them.

Even a quick, veiled reference to some Biblical stories can trigger strong emotions. You need some "go to" tools in the ol word garage.

[aspier]

I use a lot of Christian source material because it is a source of symbolism that I share with most of the audience. Si ti can serve as a great short hand to get to the specific point being made. I am curious about your statement that the poems are anti-religious? I know that would not be the case with me.

AND

It's just so pervasive and accessible in Western culture. It's there to illuminate a thought or there to be lampooned by the scornful. Whatever one's religious affiliation, The Bible is a gem mine for poetic reference and a touchstone for a vast readership.


These two quotes say it all. Of course one gets anti-religious 'poetry' but those aren't poetry in the true sence of the word as poetry has NO Master and isn't really usable for propaganda, pro or con. Poetry sec (poetica univesalis) deals with 'honesty' inside a poet, the deep in ... down inner stuff oiling the poet's motives and driving forces. There are symbols, sources, architypes and etc. that 'feeds' the poet. Ours - Western world - come from the Bible or rather the TNCH (Old Testament). In this sence the Bible is the real source to civilised thought. Its engraved in the collective unconscious of everybody wheter Christian or secular. And these 'themes' we are talking about, cannot really be exploited ... they just ARE in the poet. Its like a spider's web - there's glue on every inch of tread. Many poems 'turn out' anti-religious (rather anti- christian) or seem to go into that direction because the poet states things always 'anew' and in this process he gets carried away, blowing his own horn too loudly. When 'old things' are phrased 'new' there is always this frown and question - is it ok or is it put to steep. Theres also that dangerous element clouding refs to biblical themes, the 'crossing of a line', blasphemy ... sometimes the cord on which the poet balances are very very thin.

When I write a poem with a religious theme I only discovered it afterwards and sometimes when I re-read what I wrote I grow ice cold. Its a kind of 'did I write that?' or a 'OMG this is blasphemy! how do I get out of it?'. And from there on starts the problems and the questioning. 'Shall I fix it? How can I fix it without being false to my intuiition?' etc. implying shall I be untrue to the original thought for the sake of 'correctness' of the Bijbel or leave it in its 'blasphemous' state. Its a terrible tumult that overrides the poet when he works 'in depth' with Biblical themes. And sure there is always doubt. Is this wrong or is the 'old said new' a better approach?
The idea that ALL poetry are anti-religious is a strong one throughout the history of literature. That's because of that 'I ness' or the 'me' thing of the poet. He is 'creator of the new' and he loves the role. Soon however he proves himself 'the fallen angel' (devil) competing with God. Vienglory has ask a valuable question in his quote! Who dares answer him?

Probably the whole point is - using Biblical themes imply that the poet should knows the themes bloody well ... its a terrible daring fine line you are stepping on when you directly refer to these themes in your poems.

So Bijlel = source + biblical themes = fine line

aspier

psst I'll do corrections of this later ok?

[kdnxdr]

Veinglory, I'm not sure if your question was directed towards me or whom. I personally belive there are poems that are anti-religious or anti-christian. However, I was not referring to any one poem or poet.

kid

[veinglory]

Yes I was wondering about your initial reference. I am very interested in spiritual poetry and cannot easily bring to mind any anti-religious poetry that is based on biblical themes. Some registers a degree of despair or disillusionment (e.g. James K Baxter) but IMHO doubt is a part of faith, or at least a common other side of the coin.

[moblues]

While some of the things I've posted in different sections of this board may seem anti-religious, nothing could be further from the truth. I may not be too happy with the Catholic Church right now, but a lot of people with my background feel the same way.

Let's see:

Middle-aged Irish guy from the south side of Chicago? Check.

Spent grade school ducking punches from nuns bigger than Dick Butkus? Check.

Spent H.S. at a Christian Brother's school avoiding the advances of the brothers everyone from the previous class warned us about? Check.


I'm not anti-religion. I'm anti-organized religion. I acknowledge my faith and have a regular dialogue with my maker. The Catholic Church is one of the biggest money making organizations in the world. They have influenced politics and our history for centuries. Too much power.

This being said, some of the most life-changing influences that came from people during this time were also the nuns and brothers I met while attending these schools. I do have a sense of humor about it. I'm sure the Big Kahuna does as well. Think Dave Allen at Large. Great show from the BBC in the '70s.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with this post. This was a great question. I also kind of explained to myself why religion finds its way, however subtle, into my work.




Mike

[aspier]

Yes I was wondering about your initial reference. I am very interested in spiritual poetry and cannot easily bring to mind any anti-religious poetry that is based on biblical themes. Some registers a degree of despair or disillusionment (e.g. James K Baxter) but IMHO doubt is a part of faith, or at least a common other side of the coin.

John Dunn - mystical experience to read his work

[kdnxdr]

When I think of anti-religious poems, my orientation being christian and that my faith hangs on the accepted belief of a historical, and supernatural, Jesus, I think of poems that either malign the basic tenets of the faith or poems that celebrate death as the preferred alternative to life as anti-religious. And, of course, that's my personal perspective.

[kdnxdr]

One genre that is representative of anti-religious poems are vampiristic poems. Agan, personal perspective.

[veinglory]

I write vampire poems and think that calling them anti-religious is projecting an intention rather than appreciating that of the poet. The reader takes what they want form a poem but should have some awareness what part come from the writer and are part of the poet's intent. My intent is to write about vampires, as fictional beings , no more. If I make religious allusions in these poems (as I sometimes do) that is because the Bible provides some of the richest imagery of life, blood and immortality.

I do not intend to make any comment about Christianity in my vampire poems which are written for genre markets and, ideed, most of my poetry is fictional. If my poems were taken as literal I would be symultaneously Christian, pagan, atheist and Hindu. Of course people seem to be utterly convinced all poetry is autobiographical and have very little awareness of genre poetry. That may be why I was listed as 'raised Christian' in the liner notes of a recent poem despite the fact that I was raised atheist and never said otherwise.

[aspier]

What veinglory says is applicable to angels as well. I am absolutely fascinated by angels but the have nothing to do with my faith. I am actually studying now all instances in the TNCH (old Testament) where they appear. Also New Testament. Look at the appearance of the angel in Jezus' grave for instance. Mary came in with mirre and other things to 'wash' (care) for the dead. Then she saw that lightend being sitting on the bench and got a fright. But it was the angel who got the biggest fright of them both. He says 'What are you doing here!' He couldn't believe that a human being can be so naive as to look for the living among the dead.

By saying this I don't mean to distract but illustrate that what vienglory said that 'being busy' with a topic doesn't actually imply that one sees (or use it) to be pro or anti. The topic vampire ... yes 'being busy with death' (and certain of its consquences) isn't nessaccary anti-Christian.

In my view of the 'angels' there might be a slight twist in what ministers and the Church say about them and/or how to interpreted their appearances in biblical stories, but I don't think I am anti because of that. As a matter of fact, I suspect I am much closer to the truth of the matter than many. That angle who pointed out to Abraham where the goat (or was it a lamb?) was when he wanted to kill his son with the big farmers knife ... you know what he said?

'Hey, what are you doing?' Just like that, sitting on a bush behind Abraham. He too couldn't figure out why a human would come up^with an idea to offer his son.

'Weird humans!' I can see him shaking his head.

[wyzguy]

The difficiulty many people have is with definitions.

For many Christians, anything not explicitly Christian is anti-Christian. Christianity is an exclusive religion. Jesus said "No one comes to the Father but by me."

For many non-Christians, there is no specific "Anti" intent, just an unwillingness to conform to Christian teachings.

Hence, from one side, anti-Christian. From the other, polite nonacceptance.

[kborsden]

as long as one knows what one is talking about and doesnt use scriptures incorrectly, then biblical referance can be a powerful tool.

the bible itself is in so many ways through its own contradiction 'anti'...

maybe this is because of what it is and where it originally comes from. there are so many takes on what it exactly is trying to say that there is no wonder thet most organized religions are seeded with confusion.

christianity was once a forbidden cult that has now grown into a full blown religion with many tentacles. does this mean that all cults are up and coming religions even though they are seen as sacrelige?

a strange yet humorous thing is this: the bible forbids sexual relations of a homosexual nature and yet preaches love between man. can God not keep himself from creating gays? does he have some strange compulsion to put them upon the earth? does he feel bad about it afterward that he has to make a few heteros to stone them? even if the case is that all life is sacred?

who's to know.

[aspier]

as long as one knows what one is talking about and doesnt use scriptures incorrectly, then biblical referance can be a powerful tool. = most valid statement

the bible itself is in so many ways through its own contradiction 'anti'...

maybe this is because of what it is and where it originally comes from. there are so many takes on what it exactly is trying to say that there is no wonder thet most organized religions are seeded with confusion.

christianity was once a forbidden cult that has now grown into a full blown religion with many tentacles. does this mean that all cults are up and coming religions even though they are seen as sacrelige?

a strange yet humorous thing is this: the bible forbids sexual relations of a homosexual nature = does it? where? I know of no text in the bible that 'forbids' anything! The Jews got it right - they say the bible is THORA which means 'way' or 'direction'. New Testament is just a transcended re-interpretation of the old (the thora and other scriptures). Christ shows the 'way' only ... and the talk is about 'better', 'higher' and 'geniuen' relationships, agape ... real love and NO CONDITION. In other words HOPE and WORTH IT stuff. But this is oopsy besides the topic, no? and yet preaches love between man. can God not keep himself from creating gays? = this is a view that borders on 'mechanical creation' attitude. Everything in the bible is 'dinamic', a creation ex nihilo, new start ... I am almost sure gayness isn't even an issue. Screwed up relations is. That's all. he have some strange compulsion to put them upon the earth? does he feel bad about it afterward that he has to make a few heteros to stone them? even if the case is that all life is sacred?

who's to know.

Smile! Quite a loaded post. See my comments. The most valid point you made re biblical themes is the one that one should know what you write when you dabble in themes. And this is the most dicey thing of it all. And yes, the bible themes can be commercialised. Take the 'Superman' story. That's a 'Jew' story, comes straight from the Old Testament. Mixture of angle stuff and the omnipresense of God. And the Matrix ... oh, they know about the themes ... but ofcourse they have tuned in on popular cult scifi stuff and ufo believes. Quite a viewable action filled trilogy, no?

Good post, yours!

aspier

[greatfish]

You're correct that a lot of written work makes use of biblical themes, and most of the time they are not christian works. That's because writers are not making commentary on religion, they're usually attempting to draw parallels between events in the bible and events in their writing. It doesn't just happen with the bible either, it's quite common for writers to make allusions to almost any other major work.

Why do writers want to show the relationships between their work and the bible? It's hard to say for sure, but most great writers seem to understand that we have a tendency to retell the same stories over and over, and perhaps by referencing the previous works, they want to point out the similarities and differences. One of the greatest written pieces on the subject is a novel by William Faulkner titled "Absalom, Absalom!". It's basically trying to find the answer to why we tell and retell stories, and within the pages it has countless references to mythology, christianity, and other major written works including Moby Dick and Paradise Lost. The title itself alludes to the story of King David from the Old Testament, a story that the plotline loosely follows.

[kdnxdr]

Thank you all for your great input! Such a variety of perspectives and information.

I hope some others will contribute.

kid

[skylarburris]

The Bible is simply the fountain of Western literature. You will find allusions to it in all writing: fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. It is a "cultural vocabulary" shared by westerners, regardless of whether they believe its contents or not. This is true now. It may not be as true in future generations, as Bible literacy is increasingly going by the wayside and as more and more schools are focusing on assigning primarily 20th century literature and far less 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th (which relies more heavily on these allusions).

But yes, anti-Christian and anti-religious poems will make use of these allusions, just as will religious poems, as long as these allusions remain a part of the cultural vocabulary. This is why I believe that even in public schools, in English classes, students should be assigned to read the Bible--not to discuss it theologically, but to read it and be tested on its primary characters, stories, and most famous phrases--just as you would test students on vocabulary. Students of English must read Greek mythology as well, which is probably the second largest source of allusions after the Bible.
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