v.o. and o.s.; confused

[FJ and G]

I've read some conflicting stuff on these.

In my scene, I have a sportscaster who is present in the scene but not in the scene, so what do I use?

I'll clarify.

He's present in the stadium during a football game, giving the announcements but the camera never shows him, yet he is there in the scene, just not shown.

We can hear him calling the plays, however, on radios that some of the fans are listening to as they watch the game.

I'm so confused, please help.

[RobZombie1972]

uhm...okay, i´ll try to help you.

i guess the one of the moments you use the VO is when you have a narrator or something.

if we don´t see the sportscaster on screen but he´s is in it, its a OS.

you can use this one in a montage...tip: study some sport scripts - there are tons of examples.

[Writing Again]

If he is not shown it would seem he is off screen.

If he is announcing is it over loudspeakers? If so it would seem to me that should be noted.

Is the identity of the sportscaster important? If it is then more care should be taken, if not then why make an issue of it?

The sportscaster blares over the loudspeakers.

SPORTSCASTER

And so and so did such and such just before...

[dpaterso]

I echo what's been said.

If the sportscaster isn't right beside us -- i.e. if we're not sitting with him in the commentary box watching the game with him -- or if any electronic transmission or distortion is involved, then he's (V.O.)

If we're beside him in the commentary box while he's talking but we don't see him then he's (O.S.)

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[SimonSays]

Different people have different understandings of what should be used where.

There are so many permutations of when you hear and do not see a character.

I am not getting dragged into this debate again. Once was enough for me.

BUY A BOOK ON SCREENPLAY FORMATTING
READ IT
DO WHAT IT SAYS

Gobble, gobble
Simon

[kojled]

usually, if char is there but can't be seen (like in another room) it's OS.

i have a shot where camera is on the char but they can't be seen because it's pitch black (where they are but light in other part of shot) - this is VO because, obviously they are not 'off screen'

z

[FJ and G]

OK, some say v.o. and others o.s.; I'll flip a coin

[SimonSays]

FJ - Don't flip a coin on ANY of this stuff.

Invest 19.95 in a good screenwriting book and read it.

I guarantee you David Trottier, Syd Field, Robert Mckee, Lew Hunter know more than anyone you will ever come across on this site.

It's best to get newer books when dealing with technical formatting questions, because technology has allowed writers to do things very simply that were a pain in the ass or not feasible when people were using typewriters.

Things like v.o. / o.s. usage have not changed over time.

[FJ and G]

Simon,

I read formating books and as I mentioned, there's conflicting opinions there, at least from my reading in my specific case.

I'm asking the question of forum members.

[SimonSays]

How do you know which forum members actually KNOW and which only THINK they know, but actually don't know?

If any of the books you read are written by any of the people I referenced above, then pick ONE and follow it. Just be sure to be consistent in your usage.

[dpaterso]

Simon, if you don't know the answer then just admit to it, there's no shame. ;)

FJ & G, I thought the replies were pretty clear. Going again:

INT. COMMENTATOR'S BOX - DAY

Mike and Sally watch the game.

SALLY
Wow, good view! So how come you've
got tickets to the commentator's box?

MIKE
Because I'm special.

SPORTSCASTER (O.S.)
And things are hotting up as we enter
the final quarter with everything to
play for!

(In the above, the sportscaster is physically in the box but he's off camera and unseen -- O.S.)

-or-

EXT. STADIUM PARKING LOT - DAY

Fans crowd around a radio.

SPORTSCASTER (V.O.)
And things are hotting up as we enter
the final quarter with everything to
play for.

(In the above, the sportscaster is not present. His voice is being broadcast over the radio -- V.O.)

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[SimonSays]

DPat -

The last time there was a thread on this subject - it turned into this huge debate. It was one of my first posts and that's when I realized that trying to out-talk anyone on this board was a waste of time and energy and it was simpler and smarter to just direct people toward's better more reliable resources - because those who are wrong on this board have the same amount of conviction as those who are right.

There are in fact some gray areas on some issues - where the industry standard is unclear. In such cases I suggest deferring to the experts rather than you or me.

I originally learned what I know by reading books on formatting. I have never had an agent or producer tell me I was wrong. So I assume my sources were correct.

If you are serious about being a professional screenwriter and are unwilling to fork over 20 bucks for a book to learn about it, then you are not really serious about being a professional screenwriter.

[JustinoXV]

Yes, sometimes books do give conflict information. In those cases, after reading the books, go with the one that seems most reasonable. Or flip a coin like you said you would.:)

Then write your script and submit it. I could be wrong, but I don't think that V.O. and O.S. will make or break your script.

[SimonSays]

I agree Justino -

But if you use o.s. instead of v.o. for actual voice over narration you will confuse the reader - because narration is ALWAYS a voice over.

If you mix it up for a phone call etc., it's not confusing because you have set up through the descriptions, etc. that the character is on the phone.

That's why it is important that you understand definitions of screenplay terms, because it makes it easier to figure out usage.

[DoubleIT]

Why do so many people on this site fight over small technicalities like this? I feel as though if the script is good and the reader gets the right idea it doesnt really matter. Do what you think is correct and as long as you are consistent with your usage people will understand. A producer isnt going to trash your script because he thought an instance of VO should have been OS. In my opinion, however, Off Screen means the audio are near by, but cant be seen. The mic in the room could have captured that audio. With a VO the mic in the room could NOT have captured it, thus someone would have to do a voice over later on.

[dpaterso]

The thing is, Simon, these questions are all pretty darn basic. They're not something by which a script will be rejected or sold -- far from it (and of course you know this). But it's hardly worthwhile indulging in lectures over something so trivial. Best to give a quick, helpful answer... and save the lectures for the important questions, which may or may not come later. Come to think of it I've yet to see a question that couldn't be answered simply by reading the huge number of scripts available online. This isn't exactly rocket science so let's not get off on pretending otherwise. And what's the harm in a little "debate" now and again to clarify the best or close to best solutions, exchange some banter and feel each other out? That's what people do; that's what makes them interesting instead of robots or identical clones.

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[Writing Again]

How do you know which forum members actually KNOW and which only THINK they know, but actually don't know?

Well in my case it is easy. I'm a screenwriter in training so I don't KNOW: What I'm giving is the best answer I know based largely on reading the books you suggest buying. I'm really collecting quite an assortment.

When those books give what seems to me to be conflicting advice I do what seems best to me, keep it consistent and place my faith that DoubleIT is right: One or two instances of less than perfect format is not going to make or break my script.

[DoubleIT]

I totally agree with Derek. I just signed up here yesterday but i read a ton of the posts. It seems like too many people here dont understand film, havent studied it much and havent ready that many scripts. Most people can not fire up Final Draft for the first time and write a great script. I think a lot of people would benefit from going to Mikes Script O Rama and reading some scripts (both good and bad). That way you can see what rules were followed and broken in scripts that were sold. I was hoping to find discussions about issues to specific scripts... " I am having a problem with his motivation here" or " Does it make sence that he is doing this". I think a lot of people here need something to argue about (which is good) but the only thing to argue about are these small stupid things. As its been said, most of these problems can be solved by reading a script or a good book on script writing.

I dont mean to be a hater, because I have learned so much from various message boards in the last 5 years, and I am very excited to be apart of this one. I just know we can up the stakes a bit and have even better discussions and improve everyones writing. And I did spend 3 hours here last night reading a lot of good threads. I can already tell i'll be posting here a lot 8)

[William Haskins]

I think a lot of people would benefit from going to Mikes Script O Rama and reading some scripts

you mean drew's script-o-rama, yes?

[DoubleIT]

"you mean drew's script-o-rama, yes?"

Mike, Drew, Bill, Bob... they are all the same :D

But yes I did mean Drew, my bad.

[William Haskins]

cool. i just really feel as though there's only room on the web for one *real* script-o-rama, and i wanted to make sure this mike cat wasn't horning in on drew's turf.

if so, we were gonna hafta roll on that bitch and show him what's up...

[DoubleIT]

"if so, we were gonna hafta roll on that bitch and show him what's up... "

Mike vs. Drew: Attack of the Script Sites.

Just got off the phone with Hollywood. We got a green light :hat

[JustinoXV]

"Come to think of it I've yet to see a question that couldn't be answered simply by reading the huge number of scripts available online."

Some caution here. Some scripts online are not the actual screenplays, instead, someone transcribed a script from watching a movie. Depending on how it was transcribed you can get wrong information about formatting.

Forums like this can good sources of info on things like what books can you buy on screenwriting. The internet is good for looking up agents (WGA), and certain other things.

But there's going to be a lot of conflicting information out there. Particularly in the beginning, you may benefit from having a teacher, mentor, etc who can provide you with one voice.

And though this apparently makes some people angry, internships in the film industry are away to see scripts and how they are done.

And for those who feel so threatened by someone mentioning interning, anyone, I repeat, anyone can get an internships at a prodco or studio. All you have to do is send in your resume and do a good job on the interview.

From the things I've seen commonly debated on internet forums, my internships solved several things as far as I'm concerned.

Scripts are bound with two, not three brads.

You never put WGA or copyright information on the title page.

Being an expert on grammar isn't what screenwriting is about. If you can come up with sellable concepts and structure them properly, that's what's needed. Provided you send them to the right people. Readers are told to look within certain parameters like genre and budget when selecting scripts that they pass along. Everything sent it is still concerned a raw draft (if purchased it will go through rewrites).

[SimonSays]

DPat:

"The thing is, Simon, these questions are all pretty darn basic. They're not something by which a script will be rejected or sold -- far from it (and of course you know this)."

Derek -

I couldn't agree with you more. I've repeatedly pointed out that this type of stuff, or whether or not you have a copyright notice on your cover page will NOT make or break your chances. And I've repeatedly been told I was wrong - which I'm not.

I've repeatedly pointed out it is the story, the structure, the character development and the concept that matter. But there doesn't seem to be much interest in those issues on this board.

And on the rare occasion when it does come up, people who have no grasp of those things chime in with godawful, and downright frightening input.

You may see it differently. But that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[DoubleIT]

"I've repeatedly pointed out it is the story, the structure, the character development and the concept that matter. But there doesn't seem to be much interest in those issues on this board. "

Thats exactly how I feel too.I was hoping that this board WOULD deal with these issues. It seems like there are a lot of people on here at very different levels of knowledge. I worry many dont have the baseline knowledge to participate in, dare i say, more advance discussions of screen writing.

[noh1]

Being an expert on grammar isn't what screenwriting is about.


Now, that's true, to a certain respect, however, you're a writer, correct? What do writers write in? They write in English (at least here). Now, if you've got this great concept and great characters and story (which I agree, are of course important. Why the hell wouldn't they be?), how am I going to see it through your lousy spelling and sentence structure and childish grammar?

It IS important, and don't for a moment think it's anything else. Your spec is your calling card. It's your selling tool. It's YOU, in another form, sent via the mail or the internet, to put its best foot forward.

All these things mentioned are important, and trust me, if one section is lacking, you probably won't get very far. Even if you write an A+++ script, it will get rewritten.

anyway, that's my .02

[SimonSays]

Noh-

You're right with one caveat - if your dialogue is all grammatically correct - you will not get anywhere.

How we speak is very different from how we write.

[Boobsie Malone]

My first screenwriting professor told me never to read a screenwriting book. So, I haven't. I've received quite a few as gifts, none of their spines have been broken. They just sit on the shelf collecting dust.

I've read many scripts. I've written many scripts. And I've gotten feedback from writers whose writing I admire. I watch movies and TV all the time. I take classes. I go to seminars to hear writers I admire talk about their experiences and writing processes. And then, when I've done all that, I read more scripts.

This has worked for me. It may not for you.

[SimonSays]

Boobsie - you make much sense. Taking classes, seminars, workshops etc. is the best way to go. But many cannot afford to do so, don't have the opportunity to do so, or just choose not to.

For those don't do so, a good book on screenwriting is a better resource than this board. There are in fact some good ones out there. Books that explain structure, character development etc. Linda Seger's book for one, is really helpful for doing rewrites.

I do have a formal education and practical professional writing experience, but I still turn to my books at times. As a refresher, to find some perspective, etc.

[William Haskins]

screenwriting books, in my opinion, can be read in order to glean some idea of what the conventional wisdom and expectations of the industry are. other than that, they're pretty useless unless their elements of pop-psychology motivate you.

[SimonSays]

Actually the good ones teach and explain elements like beats and character - these things are not "conventional wisdom" or about "industry expectations"

They are the basics of storytelling and drama - and without them you do not have a story.

If you know this stuff already, that's one thing. But if you don't understand them - you cannot succed as a dramatic writer of any kind.

[William Haskins]

i cringe at the thought of anyone undertaking a screenplay without some grasp of beats and character, or any of the other "basics of storytelling and drama".

odds are, no screenwriting book is going to help such a person.

[Boobsie Malone]

Indeed, Willy. Indeed.

BURN THOSE BOOKS, HEATHENS!

Edit, sorry, I'll be helpful. So, yeah, some people can't afford to do those things. If I can't afford something, I try to figure out how I can do it cheaper.

For example: The seminars I go to, are usually put on by the WGA foundation. A place where I volunteer. A place, you could volunteer, too. And, you know what happens if you volunteer? You can get into some of those seminars for free!

Another example: I go to a lot of seminars from the Museum of Television and Radio. Again, one could volunteer there!

If you can't afford to buy scripts. Both the MTR and WGA have libraries, chock full of scripts. If you're not in LA (and really, why aren't you?), your local library should have some scripts that have been put into book form (American Beauty, Shawshank redemption).

And I'm not an advocate of stealing @#%$, but there are plenty of sites that have online scripts for free.

Also, there are plenty of schools that will give discounts and aid to those folks who have financial difficulty. I know UCLA has online classes, and the guy who runs the program Brandon, is a very cool guy.

If you want to do this. If you really want to do this, you'll find a way. If not, keep posting debates about what McKee said about X.

[JustinoXV]

"Why the hell wouldn't they be?), how am I going to see it through your lousy spelling and sentence structure and childish grammar?"

I'm not advocating that someone send in a script that is unreadable.

My major concern is that some writers tend to obsess over their scripts to the point where they spend years on the same script, without ever submitting it to someone.

And the level of writing that is required for screenwriting is certainly not the highest level of writing. The writing in a thesis or dissertation would blow any screenplay away.

"If you want to do this. If you really want to do this, you'll find a way. If not, keep posting debates about what McKee said about X."

Right on Boobsie. You're absolutely write.

[Optimus Maximus]

The writing in a thesis or dissertation would blow any screenplay away.
Since you were asking about my writing earlier, justy, I'll be more than happy to blow your screenplay away by letting you see my thesis (which I'm currently working on) when I'm done.

[William Haskins]

can he give you notes?

[SimonSays]

Justino - have you ever read a thesis or dissertation? The writing in them can often be dry and boring. Good grammar, yes. Well thought out? yes.

But well written from a grab the readers attention and keep them riveted. In many cases no - because they are not written by writers - they are written by physics majors and psychology majors not english majors.

[Optimus Maximus]

*Ahem*

I hate to disagree, but I take exception to your contention that because one writes a thesis/dissertation and is not an English major (who actually mostly study literature, not mechanics), that means he/she is not a good writer.

For the medium in which they are writing, they are quite excellent. Believe it or not, PhD/Master's students receive much more training in formal writing than English majors. Several of my professors even have degrees in linguistics. I'd challenge you to try to credibly discount their superb writing ability.

The point that I think's buried in your post...somewhere...is that there is a difference between writing and storytelling, and there is also the matter of writing for your audience.

When you write a thesis/dissertation, it is inherently "dry" because it is a technical piece, intended for a technical audience. It is not only technical from the standpoint of its subject matter, but it must have both grammatical and syntactic precision that come absurdly close to flawless. Though you may find it "dry" (and most times, they are), the intended audience will undoubtedly not share that opinion.

If well-written, a thesis - much like a script - will, indeed, "grab the reader's attention" (I'll concede that they rarely keep anyone "riveted" other than, perhaps, the original author. And even that's stretching it).

How? Because of it's interesting subject matter, executed in a unique/interesting way, and presented in a structurally pristine manner, with careful attention payed to expert format and top-notch writing.

Just like a well-written script.

They both tell stories. However, a script's purpose is to "entertain," while a thesis/dissertation's purpose is to inform and educate.

It's all about audience.

They are totally different types of writing intended for totally different types of audiences. You simply cannot compare the quality of the writing of one to the quality of the other because they are implicitly different forms of writing, measured by completely different standards.

Personally, I could read an incredibly well-written script and think it sucks if it's a horror/thriller/suspense script. Why? Because even if it's a kickass script, I personally hate those types of stories, so I'll not think highly of the script. I can appreciate the writing, but not the content.

Because I'm not the audience for that piece. Just like Simon is not the audience for a technical thesis or dissertation.

Now, a psychologist/physicist may not be a "writer" from the standpoint that writing for profit is their main career focus, however most are quite adept at writing well within their mediums, and could bury most screenwriters when it comes to using proper grammar, syntax, and spelling (the technical aspects of writing). However, I imagine I would find a script inherently more interesting than a dissertation.

Noam Chomsky is certainly not a "Writer," but from a technical standpoint, he could write anyone in Hollywood under the table and make them his bitch.

Is he a good storyteller?

Hell no. But that's not what his facet of professional writing is concerned with. Not all writing is meant to be "entertaining," or riveting. To assert such a notion is naive. The many fields, professions, and types of writing make up a continuum, not a "black/white," "either/or" bivariate concept.

You can write very well and not be a "Writer."

However, just because a person calls himself a "Writer," doesn't mean that he can write well, either.

I, on the other hand, happen to excel at both.

:p

[dpaterso]

Simon,
I couldn't agree with you more. I've repeatedly pointed out that this type of stuff, or whether or not you have a copyright notice on your cover page will NOT make or break your chances. And I've repeatedly been told I was wrong - which I'm not.
I'd suggest you deliver your professional advice and turn your back on the trivial bullshit that follows. Prolonging non-debates is just going to add to your frustration.
I've repeatedly pointed out it is the story, the structure, the character development and the concept that matter. But there doesn't seem to be much interest in those issues on this board.
You're right, but the flurry of 101-level questions suggest that those advanced topics may not be fully appreciated. If you want to introduce such topics, do. See what kind of reaction you get. This could be your major contribution, your chance to shine. Let's face it, you can repeat "I am a professional" until the stars go out, but you're still just another anonymous username -- until you deliver something of profound and lasting value. Wha'd'ya say, champ? ;)
And on the rare occasion when it does come up, people who have no grasp of those things chime in with godawful, and downright frightening input.
See suggestions above. Complaining gets you nothing; pick up the flag and lead the charge.

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[NikeeGoddess]

Wow! did this thread go off on a tangent or what?!
i had to check it out. i thought maybe mamma had come back to haunt us on the VO vs OS topic again :eek :lol

[dpaterso]

I miss maia. There, I said it. (Looking heavenward, expecting lightning bolt.)

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[Writing Again]

SimonSays:

Boobsie - you make much sense. Taking classes, seminars, workshops etc. is the best way to go. But many cannot afford to do so, don't have the opportunity to do so, or just choose not to.

Please add to that, "lack of time." When, like me, you do not get a good primary education you have to spend an inordinate amount of time working to earn a living.

For those don't do so, a good book on screenwriting is a better resource than this board. There are in fact some good ones out there. Books that explain structure, character development etc. Linda Seger's book for one, is really helpful for doing rewrites.

Everything I know about anything has been garnered by consuming libraries of books that I read on my own. Except for those things I have dealt with in actual experience, everything I know came from a book, nothing from a classroom.

But wait, I've cheated: Some of those books I've read have been the one's college professors use when teaching their courses.

I do have a formal education and practical professional writing experience, but I still turn to my books at times. As a refresher, to find some perspective, etc.

Good for you. I think part of a sound formal education should include respect for books. Not slavish adherence, but solid respect.

William Haskins:

i cringe at the thought of anyone undertaking a screenplay without some grasp of beats and character, or any of the other "basics of storytelling and drama".

odds are, no screenwriting book is going to help such a person.

I tend to agree, but there are a lot of books out there that do tackle these issues. Linda Seger's book "Creating Unforgettable Characters" is a book every genre of writer can benefit from if they have any problems developing characters.

Syd Field has become a bit of a joke in some circles because of the slavish way many of his adherents drool over his every word, and a lot of things he says are out of date, but read intelligently he is not a waste for a beginning screenwriter to spend the time reading. Some of the things he tackles are "basic story telling."

[JustinoXV]

"
Please add to that, "lack of time." When, like me, you do not get a good primary education you have to spend an inordinate amount of time working to earn a living."

Age is probably the biggest factor. Any young person can arrange his or her life in order to take those classes, workshops, etc. if he or she choses. If you're an older person who works full time to pay the mortgage, car note, and to take care of the kids, you might be less willing or able to make the necessary changes.

As for education determing working hours, not really. Medical resident work about 100 hours a week. Ditto for certain types of lawyers and investment bankers. These people have medical degrees, law degrees, and MBAs.

[Writing Again]

As for education determing working hours, not really. Medical resident work about 100 hours a week. Ditto for certain types of lawyers and investment bankers. These people have medical degrees, law degrees, and MBAs.

Yeah, but they choose to so they can wear nice clothes, drive nice cars, live in nice homes, hire a gardener, and send their kids to college.

I've worked 112 hours a week and hoped I could buy a new tire before the old one blew, or at least before I got a ticket for bald tires. No, it hasn't always been that bad, but I have been there. Still my family has always had food to eat, clothes to wear, and a home to live in.

And before someone says, "It was your choice to become a grammar school drop out" the answer is that it would not have mattered. College was never an option for me, or any of those who went to school with me. The teachers did not teach us enough to pass any entrance exam. Their primary goals did not include teaching us: Their primary goals were focused on keeping us from killing each other: Sometimes they succeeded.

[JustinoXV]

"Yeah, but they choose to so they can wear nice clothes, drive nice cars, live in nice homes, hire a gardener, and send their kids to college."

Medical residents can barely pay their rent. Doctors do not make money until years later.

As for those investment bankers, etc. most of them live in big cities and do not have gardeners. Many of them live in apartments, unless they are one of the star bankers who can also afford to buy a house in the suburbs. And in the beginning, they do not have fantastic salaries.

As for sending their kids to college, anyone can do it. It's called financial aid. Even if a kid has parents on welfare, if the gets gets into any majory university, the kid can get financial aid for tuition, room and board, and books. For additional money the kid can sign up for some sort of work study job.

As for education goes, well, I've known waiters and waitresses in places like NYC and LA who make hundreds of dollars in tips a week at high end restaurants. I've know college educated people working as secretaries for only $10 dollars an hour in the same city. College education doesn't necessarily mean that you will get a good salary.

[Writing Again]

As for sending their kids to college, anyone can do it. It's called financial aid. Even if a kid has parents on welfare, if the gets gets into any majory university, the kid can get financial aid for tuition, room and board, and books. For additional money the kid can sign up for some sort of work study job.

If the kid is getting financial aid the parents are not sending the kid to college. The people providing the financial aid are doing the sending. If the kid is working for additional money then they are at least partially paying their own way. By no stretch of the imagination are the parents sending the child to college. The parents have a child who is in college and that is their sole contribution.

As for the rest, heck, you got me feeling sorry for all those poor abused college kids out there who are having it so rough.

[JustinoXV]

"If the kid is getting financial aid the parents are not sending the kid to college. The people providing the financial aid are doing the sending."

Everyone at some point has paid taxes, even if only sales tax (if the person hasn't worked).

The funds for financial aid come in part from the taxes the public pays, as well as priviate donations from wealthy people and/or companies(whose products everyone buys).

A poor parent whose child gets financial aid is still sending their child to college. Such a parent did a good enough job raising their child and instilling a value of education in their child's life to make them want to go. That is an accomplishment.

"As for the rest, heck, you got me feeling sorry for all those poor abused college kids out there who are having it so rough."

Bitterness? For those who do not have diplomas, you can still get a GED and go to a college or university.

Yes, if you want to be an analyst make millions, you need an MBA. If you want to be a lawer, you've go to law school. If you want to be a doctor, you need to go to medical school.

With that said, those are professional degrees. Many people who have just bachelor's in liberal arts fields end up doing office work that a child with a good grammar school education could have done.

I've known people who were hot enough and personable enough to make a lot of money off their looks as bartender, models, waiters, etc in large cities.

Life is what you make of it.

[Writing Again]

"As for the rest, heck, you got me feeling sorry for all those poor abused college kids out there who are having it so rough."

Bitterness? For those who do not have diplomas, you can still get a GED and go to a college or university.

Bitter? Nope. Defensive? Probably. But you should not have a problem with that, Justino, you are one of the most defensive posters around here.

Basically I just have a low tolerance for woebegone crap from people who run around crying "poor me" while making it obvious just how little they think of crappy ignorant you.

My kids teacher who complains that he is so over worked and underpaid -- While gassing up his $50,000 hummer. Yeah, right. He is too busy feeling sorry for himself to notice the car I'm gassing up is 10 years older than he is for crissakes.

One of my bosses who complains about how much the contractors cost who are building his new home. Then he feels slighted because he discovers that some no account bum like me has a pool that is just as big as the pool he is having put in. Seems his daughter complained that as the bosses daughter she should have a bigger swimming pool than the children of any of his workers so she can properly impress her friends. He made the comment he must be paying his workers too much if they can live like that. Seems with all his whining he did not buy enough property to be able to put in a bigger swimming pool than I have. Too bad, candy boy, live with your hard knocks the way the rest of us do.

If you become a top paid screenwriter and you want to tell me how hard it is to deal with some of the crap, like lunatic bosses, and notes that don't make sense -- I will understand. Tell me how the only thing keeps you from slugging some idiot is the pay check at the end of the road and I will understand. Tell me how hard it is to keep your schedule and make all your deadlines and I will understand. But don't cry on my shoulder that you have to spend $50,000 of the last million you made on a fancy car to keep up your image. I got no sympathy.

I have no education: That is a fact.

But

My family has never gone hungry, and has always had a comfortable house to live in. In order to do that there were times when we had to manage our money pretty close. So be it. Rough times aren't something to complain about: They are something to be proud of. We did it. And we never went on welfare to do it either. My wife worked when she wanted to and didn't work when she didn't want to. She never had to work to make ends meet.

As for what I want to be, all I ever wanted to be was a writer: A novelist to be specific. The kind of writer who writes about real people with real problems. You don't do that by going to college. You do that by getting out there and living life, and that is what I have done.

If I've got a kick coming it is that I took time out to raise a family. I made a choice; I may have made the wrong one.

But the conversation here did not revolve around that. We were talking about the situation as it stands now. The most prominent difference between now and then is my recent interest in learning screenwriting. In truth I have not yet made a commitment to become a professional screenwriter. My commitment is to learn to write screenplays. Once I have done that then I will decide if I want to try making it a profession.

I don't have the time to drop everything and run off to school to learn screenwriting: Nor do I have the money. If I did have the time and the money, I don't have the background education to give me entry. In order to get it would probably take me from one to two years. The fact that the American education system failed to fulfill its function for me and hundreds of thousands of others is a side issue here.

Not to mention, in case you have not been paying attention, I do not do well in a scholastic situation. I'm the guy who thinks a noun that performs an action should be considered an active noun because it makes understanding the mechanics of grammar so much easier. I'm the guy who would have told Boobsey Malone's first teacher (who told her never to read a screenwriting book) that I will damn well read what I choose when I choose and if he doesn't like it he can find someone else to teach nonsense to. ( And if I were being particularly pizzy I'd say, "to whom to teach your nonsense.")

I don't want to hear how to get a formal education to be able to succeed as a screenwriter or as anything else. I want to hear how I can succeed by building upon what I've got. Tell me how I can learn what I need to know without a formal education. If you can't tell me that then step aside, there is somebody behind you who has something to say I want to hear.

[dpaterso]

Seems with all his whining he did not buy enough property to be able to put in a bigger swimming pool than I have. Too bad, candy boy, live with your hard knocks the way the rest of us do.

Funny stuff, WA. ;)

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)