Reminiscent of actions taken against the Jews by the Third Reich

[Popeyesays]

This letter was leaked by someone in the Iranian Ministry of the Interior apparently. It reiterates actions decreed against Baha`i's in Iran the previous year .

Yeah, I've been Baha`i for more than thirty years. It's the largest single religious minority in Iran, was founded in Shiraz, Iran in 1844. The initial revelation of the religion resulted in as many as 20,000 deaths of those early Baha`i's at the hands of the Shah's government. Today there are approximately 7,000,000 Baha`i's in virtually every nation around the world.

Persecutions have only worsened there since Khomeini's revolution took power.


19 August 2006 Letter from the Iranian Ministry of the Interior

[TRANSLATION FROM PERSIAN -- Translator’s notes appear in square brackets [ ].]
28 Murdád 1385 [19 August 2006]
Islamic Republic of Iran
Number: 70878/43
Ministry of the Interior
In the Name of God
To the honourable political-security deputies of the offices of the Governors’ General of the country
Greetings,
Respectfully, we have received reports that some of the elements of the perverse sect of Bahaism are attempting to teach and spread the ideology of Bahaism, under the cover of social and economic activities. In view of the fact that this sect is illegal and that it is exploited by international and Zionist organizations against the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, we therefore ask you to order the relevant offices to cautiously and carefully monitor and manage their [the Bahá’ís’] social activities. In addition, complete the requested information on the enclosed form and forward it to this office for its use by 15 Shahrívar [6 September 2006].
Siyyid Muḥammad-Riḍa Mavválízádih [Seyyed Mohammad-Reza Mavvalizadeh]
Director of the Political Office
[Signature]

-------------------------------

Facsimile of the original letter in Persian:
http://info.bahai.org/pdf/19august2006letter.pdf (http://info.bahai.org/pdf/19august2006letter.pdf)
___________________________

[billythrilly7th]

Sadly, for them, happily for the world, but also sadly for the world in a although it's good for the world long term, it's still sad that it will come to this way....Iran's days are numbered.

[dclary]

Not if the Democrats have any say in the matter, they're not.

[greglondon]

Iran's days are numbered.

Yeah, we'll just take that phantom extra division of troops and a phantom carrier battle group, and phantom bomb the phantom hell out of phantom Iran.

In short, what the hell are you talking about that has any basis in reality? we need a couple hundred thousand troops in Iraq that don't even exist. The only place these troops for invading Iran are going to come from are out your bippity boppety boo.

[greglondon]

Not if the Democrats have any say in the matter, they're not.

I think you mean "Pentagon" when you say "Democrats", because the Pentagon will basically look at anyone proposing to invade Iran and inquire as to whether they are indeed smoking crack.

This is the problem with living in the real world. We don't have that limitless supply of military firepower that is commonly available in war porn fiction. Of course, explaining this to folks living in non-reality based imaginations can be difficult.

[oswann]

Sadly, for them, happily for the world, but also sadly for the world in a although it's good for the world long term, it's still sad that it will come to this way....Iran's days are numbered.


I would actually love to be to be as simplistic as this. I would love to think overthrowing systems of government would lead to the instant love of American style democracy and to believe the uncountable amount of waffle Billy throws up daily in his life dedicated to sitting in front of his computer. I'm sure the sky is clear in Billy's world and he sleeps like a baby.


Os.

[dclary]

I know it is and I do in my world!

[nicegrrl]

Iranians are not idiots. They will overthrow this regime by themselves soon enough. Arabs however...well, arabs are idiots. Really, they are.

[billythrilly7th]

I would actually love to be to be as simplistic as this. I would love to think overthrowing systems of government would lead to the instant love of American style democracy

"Iran's days are numbered" is a fact. There is no need for it to be more complicated.

And there won't be an "overthrowing" and attempting to "lead to an American style democracy."

There will be destruction that rains down like hellfire from above.

Everybody likes to talk about how we're too busy in Iraq to fight Iran.

Yeah, if we wanted boots on the ground in Iran. But we learned our lesson.

Our air force, our navy, our air craft carriers and our missiles and bombs are well rested.

If Iran continues down the path they are currently on, they will see how well rested.

I hope they come to their senses.

They will not get a nuclear weapon.

A simplistic fact.

Thank you.

[billythrilly7th]

Arabs however...well, arabs are idiots. Really, they are.

That's not nice.

[Robert Toy]

Iranians are not idiots. They will overthrow this regime by themselves soon enough. Arabs however...well, arabs are idiots. Really, they are.
That’s a pretty board brush you’re using – read history much?

[Bravo]

That’s a pretty board brush you’re using – read history much?

hello robert.

waking up from your nap?

i havent seen you post here much.

[badducky]

Germans weren't idiots, but they still kept Hitler around. Heck, one of Hitler's own little non-idiots managed to win a Nobel Prize.

Don't give smart people too much credit. If you told me -- as a fairly smart person -- that I could either allow this extremely intolerant regime to continue abusing other people, or I could risk my life and limb in a futile quest to end a military propped up by oil-wealth and religious fervor... Well, I'd do exactly what many, many smart Iranians do. I'd get on a plane to Vancouver, Canada and thank Allah I'm able to get myself and my family out of that heckhole. I wouldn't stay and fight.

Me is pretty smart. Not the brightest guy out there, but bright enough to figure this equation out.

Let's see... Risk life and limb to end a regime that would happily rape, torture, and murder every member of my family over even the slightest of heresies, or scrimp and save for that plane ticket and get the heck out in peace.

I don't foresee a revolution. I foresee a steadily increasing polarization that will collapse from the top through a military coup, or will collapse from the bottom through international intervention.

In 1936 one couldn't just hop onto a plane to escape Anti-Semitism.

[billythrilly7th]

hello robert.

waking up from your nap?

i havent seen you post here much.

He's writing.

Something you should consider doing at some point after finishing your 18 years of post high school schooling for god knows what at this point.

Thank you.
:)

[TeddyG]

I just knew the Zionists would get blamed in there...
some things are just so predictable :D

[Bravo]

Something you should consider doing at some point after finishing your 18 years of post high school schooling for god knows what at this point.



are you purposely trying to depress me?

.....

i have to go to class now.


:(

[billythrilly7th]

are you purposely trying to depress me?

i have to get to class now.....


:(

I wasn't purposely trying to, but there are "happy accidents" in life.

Good luck in class. Say hi to all the cute chicks for me.

:)

[nicegrrl]

That’s a pretty board brush you’re using – read history much?

Yeah, And Ive yet to understand how bedouins could not progress past the point of tribes living in tents until the west showed them what oil was for despite the fact that they existed between ancient greece, persia, egypt and byzantium- essentially the middle of all great ancient civilizations. What is their excuse for being so dumb for so long?

Iran does not like its regime of ayatollahs for the most part nor do they like organized religion. They'll grow out of this.

[badducky]

Also, I look forward to the day someone can say "Jewish" and nobody immediately thinks of "Hitler" or "The Holocaust" or "The Political Situation in Israel".

[Haggis]

Arabs however...well, arabs are idiots. Really, they are.

You must really want to be banned. Nothing else could explain a statement like that.

[TeddyG]

Also, I look forward to the day someone can say "Jewish" and nobody immediately thinks of "Hitler" or "The Holocaust" or "The Political Situation in Israel".

I can only shake my head at the utter stupidity of that statement.

[Bravo]

You must really want to be banned. Nothing else could explain a statement like that.

i honestly hope she doesnt though.

i think she says things that are on a lot of ppl's minds.

thank you.

[billythrilly7th]

Also, I look forward to the day someone can say "Bravo" and nobody immediately thinks of "Hump" or "The Bushy Situation with his hair."

:D

[nicegrrl]

You must really want to be banned. Nothing else could explain a statement like that.

Well they arent poor, so we cant blame poverty for their general psychosis, so what are our options? Its either their religion or their overall cultural backwardness.

[billythrilly7th]

I can only shake my head at the utter stupidity of that statement.

I wasn't sure what to make of it. I just kind of read it, tried to formulate something and respond but I had nothing.

It sounded like it could be stupid.

But then it also sounded like it could be "I hope the Jews can live in peace, prosperity and without anti-semitism where the mere mention of them no longer brings up these horrible images and events."

:Shrug:

[Robert Toy]

i honestly hope she doesnt though.

i think she says things that are on a lot of ppl's minds.

thank you.
Bigotry is on a lot of people’s minds, stating them on AW is not acceptable. Today it’s Arabs, tomorrow ____?

[billythrilly7th]

Bigotry is on a lot of people’s minds, stating them on AW is not acceptable. Today it’s Arabs, tomorrow ____?

Thrilly's?

:eek:

[Haggis]

Thrilly's?

:eek:

Exactly. It's the old "slippery slope" theory.

[TeddyG]

Unfortunately "sounded like" does not work on a writer's forum board.
Whatever was meant it came out totally ....... (fill in your fav. adjective here)

[English Dave]

Thrilly's?

:eek:

What do you think happened to the first six?

[TeddyG]

Toy you old friend

how the hell are you?

[Robert Toy]

Toy you old friend

how the hell are you?
Hanging in there, have a bit of a health problem at the moment - generally feel like s**t, but I'll survive. I’ve been hacking away on my WIP and hope to have it completed for my Christmas present.

And you?

[billythrilly7th]

What do you think happened to the first six?

You can read all about it in my soon to be released book....

"The Rise and Fall and Re-Rise of the Thrillian Empire."
Simon & Schuster
Spring '07
$19.95

I might be doing a book signing in Dublin. I hope you can meet me there.

[billythrilly7th]

[COLOR=black]Hanging in there, have a bit of a health problem at the moment - generally feel like s**t, but I'll survive.

It figures. Due to a number of factors, your resistance must be low there in France.

Hope you feel better soon.

[robeiae]

Also, I look forward to the day someone can say "Jewish" and nobody immediately thinks of "Hitler" or "The Holocaust" or "The Political Situation in Israel".Considering the boldfaced words, I find this sentiment to be quite well-intentioned.

The idea, I think, is that the label "Jewish" should be defined by what it means, not by what things can be associated with it, for whatever reason. It does mean those other things are unimportant or forgotten, it's just that they aren't immediately thought of as defining characteristics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Badducky.

[TeddyG]

Doing okay Toy...writing, finished and put together a collection of short stories which is being read as we speak..so I will have to wait a couple of weeks to know what happens..

I really hope and pray you get better and feel better. You are da man you know. One of my favorites. I have missed you.

[TeddyG]

Unfortunately Rob, what you fail to get is that being Jewish IS DEFINED by Israel, the Holocaust and all the other things. That is what perhaps you fail to grasp.

Being Jewish in today's world - one must come to terms with those things in any way that is seen fit. But it defines, without a shadow of a doubt, in 99% of the Jewish world, what Judaism is.

[Robert Toy]

Doing okay Toy...writing, finished and put together a collection of short stories which is being read as we speak..so I will have to wait a couple of weeks to know what happens..

I really hope and pray you get better and feel better. You are da man you know. One of my favorites. I have missed you.Glad to hear that you are getting lots of work done.

I'll drop in a bit more often and harass the troops.:D

[English Dave]

You can read all about it in my soon to be released book....

"The Rise and Fall and Re-Rise of the Thrillian Empire."
Simon & Schuster
Spring '07
$19.95

I might be doing a book signing in Dublin. I hope you can meet me there.

Give me your uncle's address. And God bless Publish America!

[robeiae]

Unfortunately Rob, what you fail to get is that being Jewish IS DEFINED by Israel, the Holocaust and all the other things. That is what perhaps you fail to grasp.

Being Jewish in today's world - one must come to terms with those things in any way that is seen fit. But it defines, without a shadow of a doubt, in 99% of the Jewish world, what Judaism is.And in 5000 years? Will this still be true?

[nicegrrl]

Bigotry is on a lot of people’s minds, stating them on AW is not acceptable. Today it’s Arabs, tomorrow ____?


Just because it does not sound politically correct and egalitarian to the point of naivite doesnt mean its bigotry.

Today its arabs, tomorrow its whoever else uses their multi billion dollar natural resource revenue to remain illiterate and ignorant of all progressive thought.

[TeddyG]

Yes...if even the most Reform of Jews today still know that there is a holiday that is called the Tisha Baav where we fast because of the destruction of the first and second temple 2000 years ago, and today in Liturgy in Synagogue, "Kinot" (prose) is still read about the destruction in 1000 CE of Jewish communities in France; and we still have a Seder on Passover reminding us of the Exodus from Egypt 5000 years ago - I certainly think the Holocaust will be remembered in the conciousness of the Jewish people for many many reasons.
As to the State of Israel - well you certainly are going at least 4000 years into the past in terms of its sources.

So Yes - and again Yes. There are certain things that become embedded in the conciousness of any people due to their utter horror. The Holocaust was one such event for the Jewish People.

[English Dave]

Yes...if even the most Reform of Jews today still know that there is a holiday that is called the Tisha Baav where we fast because of the destruction of the first and second temple 2000 years ago, and today in Liturgy in Synagogue, "Kinot" (prose) is still read about the destruction in 1000 CE of Jewish communities in France; and we still have a Seder on Passover reminding us of the Exodus from Egypt 5000 years ago - I certainly think the Holocaust will be remembered in the conciousness of the Jewish people for many many reasons.
As to the State of Israel - well you certainly are going at least 4000 years into the past in terms of its sources.

So Yes - and again Yes. There are certain things that become embedded in the conciousness of any people due to their utter horror. The Holocaust was one such event for the Jewish People.

You're living in the past Marj!

H.J Simpson

[TeddyG]

You're living in the past Marj!

H.J Simpson

So true .. so true...and yet so wise....

[billythrilly7th]

I don't think people should be defined by the horrible things that occurred to them in the past. Those things should be acknowledged and remembered, but not be the defining characteristic of a people.

Black people shouldn't be defined because of slavery and Africa.

And I don't think Jewish people should be or are defined, at least in America, by Israel or the Holocaust.

Those things are part of the equation, but I think Jewish people should be defined by their contributions to the sciences and the arts and the world as a whole. And their ability to make a delicious Brisket.

Thank you.

[English Dave]

So true .. so true...and yet so wise....

Which episode did he say that in?

[robeiae]

So Yes - and again Yes. There are certain things that become embedded in the conciousness of any people due to their utter horror. The Holocaust was one such event for the Jewish People.So in 5000 years, if someone says they are Jewish, I should immediately think of Hitler? That's the proposition you're defending, you know.

Personally, I would never want my religion to be defined by it's link to outside agents and factors, first and foremost. I don't get your position on this, Teddy. Not at all.

Badducky wasn't talking about the Jewish consciousness, he was talking about the initial response of others. Even today, if someone says "Jewish," my immediate response need not be to think of Hitler. Can't I think of my relatives, whom I love, who are Jewish?

[badducky]

I can only shake my head at the utter stupidity of that statement.

Why is it stupid? Like Rob said.

Someday, being "Jewish" won't carry the weight of the horrible things done to Jews. Someday, being "Jewish" won't instantaneously distinguish itself in political and historical connotations from other religious categories like being "Baptist" or "Buddhist".

[Robert Toy]

Just because it does not sound politically correct and egalitarian to the point of naivite doesnt mean its bigotry.

Today its arabs, tomorrow its whoever else uses their multi billion dollar natural resource revenue to remain illiterate and ignorant of all progressive thought.
How one chooses to use their multi billion dollar natural resource revenue is not for you to determine. Making broad statements on standards or opinions that differs from your own is bigotry.

How about Venezuelans?

[Haggis]

Just because it does not sound politically correct and egalitarian to the point of naivite doesnt mean its bigotry.

I'm no fan of political correctness. But we're not talking about pc here, or the lack thereof. Labeling a whole ethnic group "idiots" is a hell of a lot more than that. If it walks like a duck...etc. Sure sounds bigoted to me. I thought nicegrrls didn't do things like that.

[English Dave]

How one chooses to use their multi billion dollar natural resource revenue is not for you to determine. Making broad statements on standards or opinions that differs from your own is bigotry.

How about Venezuelans?

Much as Chavez is being painted as an ogre he has done more for the general population of Venezuela in a few years than previous Governments did in decades. If ever.

[robeiae]

Much as Chavez is being painted as an ogre he has done more for the general population of Venezuela in a few years than previous Governments did in decades. If ever.The same is absolutely true of Lenin. And Mao. And Cromwell, oddly enough...:D

[badducky]

Gosh, Inuit eskimoes have access to all modern conveniences and technologies and schools and yet they insist on living exactly as their culture lived for tens of thousands of years successfully...

Clearly, I must hate them for not being exactly like us smart westerners.

;)

[billythrilly7th]

Much as Chavez is being painted as an ogre he has done more for the general population of Venezuela in a few years than previous Governments did in decades. If ever.

That sounds very familiar. I can't quite place where I've heard something like that before. But I have.

[Robert Toy]

Now we are getting somewhere - hate everyone equally, that's fair! :tongue

Added: BTW Chavez is my hero! :)

[English Dave]

The same is absolutely true of Lenin. And Mao. And Cromwell, oddly enough...:D

Lenin, Mao and Cromwell had a low starting point.

There's a sentence you won't see too often.

Today, thanks to the info highway people have aspirations that can't readily be controlled by Government.

Chavez will last as long as he delivers. He knows that.

[robeiae]

Chavez will last as long as he delivers.That's what my prom date told me...

[billythrilly7th]

Added: BTW Chavez is my hero! :)

Me too!

Viva La Revolucion!!

[English Dave]

That's what my prom date told me...

That's what I told my prom date.

And readers, that prom date is now.......a feminist.

[billythrilly7th]

Chavez will last as long as he delivers. He knows that.

He is constitutionally bound by term limits.

So, he will be out of office I think in 2010 or 2012.
















:rolleyes:

[English Dave]

He is constitutionally bound by term limits.

So, he will be out of office I think in 2010 or 2012.


It's South America Billy. Length of office = how p1ssed off the army are.

[billythrilly7th]

It's South America Billy. Length of office = how p1ssed off the army are.

:ROFL:

Well said, blokey.

[dclary]

Don't give smart people too much credit.

MENSA MEMBER
Want to join Mensa? It's a group of only the smartest people in the world.

DILBERT
If you're so smart, why do you work here?

MENSA MEMBER
Apparently intelligence is highly overrated.

[badducky]

I've always wanted to join the Society for Female Engineers...

[nicegrrl]

How one chooses to use their multi billion dollar natural resource revenue is not for you to determine. Making broad statements on standards or opinions that differs from your own is bigotry.
How about Venezuelans?
When is the last time the Venezuelan govt stoned a rape victim to death? Making broad statements on standards that severely differ from those based on the declaration of human rights is not bigotry, its more like a sense of compassion for one's fellow human being.
And I abhor cultural relativism and I wouldnt shed a tear if all Inuit deviations from standard contsitutional law were banned. Inuit traditionally ate their children in the winter to prevent from starving when neccesary. There is nothing precious about cultures. Cultures do not have rights and nor should they. Individuals have rights- individual women, children, men and animals. If a culture decides not to recognize such rights, that culture can go to He11.

[Sheryl Nantus]

When is the last time the Venezuelan govt stoned a rape victim to death? Making broad statements on standards that severely differ from those based on the declaration of human rights is not bigotry, its more like a sense of compassion for one's fellow human being.
And I abhor cultural relativism and I wouldnt shed a tear if all Inuit deviations from standard contsitutional law were banned. Inuit traditionally ate their children in the winter to prevent from starving when neccesary. There is nothing precious about cultures. Cultures do not have rights and nor should they. Individuals have rights- individual women, children, men and animals. If a culture decides not to recognize such rights, that culture can go to He11.

*falls off chair laughing*

sweetie, you know as much about the North as you do about... anything else.

just *where* did you get this information about Inuit eating their young? Seriously? That great university education?

[badducky]

Oh, make no mistake about it: I am no relativist.

However, the big difference between brutal South American regimes and brutal Middle Eastern Regimes is that the Middle Eastern ones will be open about their offenses. South American ones are big on suppression. Make no mistake about it: Drug Cartels and Military Personnel do terrible, terrible things to people in Venezuela daily. Much of it occurs so far below the radar of the modern world that it's difficult to find any information at all in our comfortable little homes.

Of course, it often isn't religious violence. Usually the violence in South America is based on money and power. Obviously, this is little consolation to the many, many victims.

[badducky]

Oh, and the Inuit culture had major taboos about cannibalism. Major taboos. FYI.

[Robert Toy]

When is the last time the Venezuelan govt stoned a rape victim to death? Making broad statements on standards that severely differ from those based on the declaration of human rights is not bigotry, its more like a sense of compassion for one's fellow human being.
And I abhor cultural relativism and I wouldnt shed a tear if all Inuit deviations from standard contsitutional law were banned. Inuit traditionally ate their children in the winter to prevent from starving when neccesary. There is nothing precious about cultures. Cultures do not have rights and nor should they. Individuals have rights- individual women, children, men and animals. If a culture decides not to recognize such rights, that culture can go to He11.
:roll:

[English Dave]

Oh, and the Inuit culture had major taboos about cannibalism. Major taboos. FYI.

I don't care. She said it three times so it must be true.

[Sheryl Nantus]

I don't care. She said it three times so it must be true.

repeat after me - Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice... Bee....

[nicegrrl]

why did that post three times?

[dclary]

why did that post three times?

When AW crashes (as it does a few times a day) whatever was in the process of being posted at that moment gets bonus time.

[nicegrrl]

Yeah, the most extensive anthropological study of inuit describes how inuit would eat their children during winter to save from starvation. It was a painstraking process to decide which child to eat. Let me see if I can find the book title.

[SC Harrison]

So Yes - and again Yes. There are certain things that become embedded in the conciousness of any people due to their utter horror. The Holocaust was one such event for the Jewish People.

If those events were separated by centuries of peace and contentment, they would still be memorable, but they were not. They were linked by countless indignities and inhuman treatment, perpetrated from very small to large scale, from backwards cultures to the very advanced, all over the world.

But...it breaks my heart to see current events that perpetuate and exacerbate hatred of the Jews, which is why I wish a solution to (at least) the Occupied Territories can be found, and soon.

[Robert Toy]

Is the recipe included, or did they just eat them raw? :)

[Haggis]

Is the recipe included, or did they just eat them raw? :)

You never heard of Eskimo Pies?

[Robert Toy]

You never heard of Eskimo Pies?
:roll:

[robeiae]

You never heard of Eskimo Pies?Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Yeah, the most extensive anthropological study of inuit describes how inuit would eat their children during winter to save from starvation. It was a painstraking process to decide which child to eat. Let me see if I can find the book title.

please do.

as long as it's not published by the same people who put out The Turner Diaries.

[robeiae]

I thought those were seals...

[dclary]

You never heard of Eskimo Pies?

/must buy new monitor... replace coke-spewed-one.

:roll:

[badducky]

I look forward to this book, too. My extensive Anthropological textbooks have all indicated cannibalism was an extreme taboo, and they're less than five years old.

[Robert Toy]

I look forward to this book, too. My extensive Anthropological textbooks have all indicated cannibalism was an extreme taboo, and they're less than five years old.
But do your books have pop-up igloos when you open them up?

[English Dave]

I look forward to this book, too. My extensive Anthropological textbooks have all indicated cannibalism was an extreme taboo, and they're less than five years old.

I'll call your five year old text books and raise you myth and legend.

[Patricia]

Also, I look forward to the day someone can say "Jewish" and nobody immediately thinks of "Hitler" or "The Holocaust" or "The Political Situation in Israel".

You're going to look a long way, for a long while, because it's not going to happen.

[English Dave]

You're going to look a long way, for a long while, because it's not going to happen.
Dammit. Why can't I get with the zeitgeist?

[Patricia]

Dammit. Why can't I get with the zeitgeist?

Actually, in my opinion, the spirit of the Jewish nation was defined long before Hitler, but is best defined by such for today's generation. The current political climate in Israel was set in motion during the age of Abraham, with the births of Isaac and Ishmael (Now, like the good little moderate I am, I'm going to duck my head and run out of here).

[Bravo]

Bigotry is on a lot of people’s minds, stating them on AW is not acceptable. Today it’s Arabs, tomorrow ____?

well i think every1 knows where i stand on these things by now.

but it's important sometimes to have ppl like her say these things and have ppl actually show where the argument is flawed (and, i have to say, im surprised to see you take this side here).

she prob wont ever change her mind, but i can guarantee that there are ppl less extreme who need to see what's wrong w the statements b/c deep down, they have similar beliefs.

that being said, i think nicegrrl frequently uses language in a way that's combative and divisive ("God must be a yankees fan"???) and that's why she gets this reaction almost everytime.

[billythrilly7th]

("God must be a yankees fan"???)

She said "red sox fan."

Of course god is a Yankee fan.

27 World Championships!!!!

yeah boy!!!

[Bravo]

well, i know you were stung by that.

hopefully youre working on reconciling.

good luck you two lovers.

[billythrilly7th]

Man, you got rusty hunched under that desk.

What the hell are you talking about.

[nicegrrl]

QUOTE]but it's important sometimes to have ppl like her say these things and have ppl actually show where the argument is flawed (and, i have to say, im surprised to see you take this side here).
[/QUOTE]

Uhuh. Whining about how my statements are "cold" or "just plain wrong" does not in any way point out an error.

Billy, apparently this board hasnt chilled out about my "extremely offensive" comment that God must be a redsox fan after Cory Liddle's
death. What is this board? absolutemelodramaticchildrenonlifetimeTV?

Wait, dont cry, dont cry. It's ok. You're all ok. Everyone is nice. All cultures are nice. Just because people think differently doesnt mean that I should judge them. Always be nice and everything will be fine.

[Bravo]

What the hell are you talking about.

she asked to marry you yesterday.

[Haggis]

Nicegrrl, cultures aren't nice or un-nice, or smart or idiotic. They're simply cultures. While you're looking up that Inuit child-eating reference in your anthro book, be sure to check out the definition of the word "ethnocentric." I'm sure you'll find it there.

[nicegrrl]

They're simply cultures. While you're looking up that Inuit child-eating reference in your anthro book, be sure to check out the definition of the word "ethnocentric."

This is BS. Cultures are not simply cultures. Some ways are more effective and reasonable and humane than others. There are few things so "ethnocentric" as the concept of cultural relativism, for what culture outside the post modern west respects such a concept?

It's a text based on some guy who lived with the inuit for several decades in the 19th century and another anthropologist from the early 90s and I think the location was on Baffin Island- the title is very long and is something like "anthropological lanf based lifestyle in the Inuit in Baffin Island"- basically the title summarizes the topic of the book, so it difficult for me to remember in precise detail.

[Bravo]

QUOTE]
Uhuh. Whining about how my statements are "cold" or "just plain wrong" does not in any way point out an error.

yeah, well i didnt jump at you, thank you.

but i was saying that i was a bit surprised that robert took the stand that he did. that's all.

Billy, apparently this board hasnt chilled out about my "extremely offensive" comment that God must be a redsox fan after Cory Liddle's
death. What is this board? absolutemelodramaticchildrenonlifetimeTV?

once again, hopefully that wasnt directed at me.

since i was just defending your right to say these things here.


Wait, dont cry, dont cry. It's ok. You're all ok. Everyone is nice. All cultures are nice. Just because people think differently doesnt mean that I should judge them. Always be nice and everything will be fine.

that's a nice girl.

[nicegrrl]

Billy is not ready for marriage and he wants a sugar momma. I think that all people who are serious about a creative career such as writing or art should marry sugar mommas or daddies. Unless you are rich like Steven King, in which case you should marry whoever makes you happy. If you are not rich, you should marry someone rich that makes you happy.

[Bravo]

ill get rich on my own.

[Bravo]

or die trying.

[nicegrrl]

once again, hopefully that wasnt directed at me.

since i was just defending your right to say these things here.


Ok then, I'll try to be nice to you.

BTW, what jobs allow you and Billy to post here continuously all day? Tis the job I want.

[Haggis]

STEPHEN King.

[Bravo]

Ok then, I'll try to be nice to you.

BTW, what jobs allow you and Billy to post here continuously all day? Tis the job I want.

billy & dclary run on donations for their posts.

i barely post here these days.


and please dont be nice to me for that. i think youre extremely reductionist and abrasive.


eta: although im sure youre a nicegrrl in the real world, i really think you need a new name to fit your online persona. :)

[nicegrrl]

eta: although im sure youre a nicegrrl in the real world, i really think you need a new name to fit your online persona.

I probably should. suggestions are welcome. But I think Ill keep the fish.

[robeiae]

It's a text based on some guy who lived with the inuit for several decades in the 19th century and another anthropologist from the early 90s and I think the location was on Baffin Island- the title is very long and is something like "anthropological lanf based lifestyle in the Inuit in Baffin Island"- basically the title summarizes the topic of the book, so it difficult for me to remember in precise detail.
Are you talking about Knud Rasmussen (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/biography/pqrst/rasmussen_knud.html)? He traveled throughout Inuit regions, collecting all sorts of data. I think he even searched for the Franklin Expedition, wherein actual proven cannabilism occured...among Europeans who had run out of food (yes, like the Donner party). But he also heard stories of Inuit cannibalism, including stories of Inuit eating their own children, if I remember correctly. That's all they were, though--stories. If you understand anthropology, then you would understand that such stories can occur in any culture that has a strong bias against cannibalism. The stories are horror stories that serve to reinforce this bias and remind people what might happen if they don't prepare well for the worst winter months. To postulate that cannabilism was/is a common feature of Inuit society is simply incorrect.

[nicegrrl]

The text I am thinking of definitely described real events of people eating their children. It might be referenced in "Never in Anger", which was a late ethnography of the Inuit.

In any case, I recall being consistently appalled in all the anthropology courses I took in college. Backward cultures just need to go.

[SpookyWriter]

BTW, what jobs allow you and Billy to post here continuously all day? Tis the job I want.They're with Homeland Security. Don't you just feel safer knowing they're keeping an eye out for the bad guys. :D

[Unique]

The text I am thinking of definitely described real events of people eating their children. It might be referenced in "Never in Anger", which was a late ethnography of the Inuit.

In any case, I recall being consistently appalled in all the anthropology courses I took in college. Backward cultures just need to go.

Why? If they don't export it, what difference does it make?

(just curious - the eradication of backwards Amazonian tribes is a pet peeve of mine)

[nicegrrl]

Why? If they don't export it, what difference does it make?

(just curious - the eradication of backwards Amazonian tribes is a pet peeve of mine)

Many of them do export it and even for those who dont, I still cannot support inhumanity or lack of health and hygeine in the name of preserving some tribal culture. Maybe the tribes of wherever can accept marrying children off and half their infants dying of childhood diseases. I do not think that is acceptable, however.

[robeiae]

The text I am thinking of definitely described real events of people eating their children. It might be referenced in "Never in Anger", which was a late ethnography of the Inuit.I seriously think you're confused. It may be you are thinking of some other culture, or some work of fiction; I can't really say--but I have never heard of what you are describing, not that I'm an expert on the Inuit, by any stretch of the imagination. Still, if this was the case, it would be in every scholarly study of the Inuit that was out there. If I have to go into the attic and bring down my anthropology books, I will--but I'm gonna be mighty ticked off if I don't find any references to this...

Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry...:D (see, I'm already starting to turn green!)

[Unique]

Leaving out those who do export it (I'm not fond of it either)(even when we, as a Western nation do it)

It's easy to stand on the outside and look in; what do you think it looks like from their point of view? Maybe they don't want what we have. What right do we have to cram it down their throat? I, for one, don't think we do have that right.

[robeiae]

Why? If they don't export it, what difference does it make?The crusaders were certainly backwards in many ways, compared to the Muslims and the Byzantines...and they exported it! So can we eradicate them? :tongue

[nicegrrl]

lol, look for the part where they have homosexual orgies. If you read all of your texts really carefully, several times, you should find it in there.

[robeiae]

lol, look for the part where they have homosexual orgies. If you read all of your texts really carefully, several times, you should find it in there.Ummm...that's the Spartans.

[Unique]

The crusaders were certainly backwards in many ways, compared to the Muslims and the Byzantines...and they exported it! So can we eradicate them? :tongue

you can try....:Wha: and if your time machine works out that well - can I try out the American West? Oh, about 1849?

[nicegrrl]

The crusaders were certainly backwards in many ways, compared to the Muslims and the Byzantines...and they exported it! So can we eradicate them?

So far as I know, the crusaders are like 1000 years dead. One doesnt have to eraticate all people in order to eradicate a culture. Some people maybe, but I'm not going to shed any tears if someone eradicates the extremist Imams in Saudi Arabia (which would be all of the Imams).

[nicegrrl]

Did anyone watch southpark last night- where cartman freezes himself and gets unfrozen 500 years in the future.

Man, that scene with Ms. Garrison and Richard Dawkins is something else.

[Haggis]

Did anyone watch southpark last night- where cartman freezes himself and gets unfrozen 500 years in the future.

Man, that scene with Ms. Garrison and Richard Dawkins is something else.

More Koolaid, nicegrrl?

[Sheryl Nantus]

Ummm...that's the Spartans.

that's okay - she's not really good at history.

*rolls eyes*

so you can't produce the book but you're standing by this idiotic comment about the Inuit.

if you took history in university you should be asking for your tuition fees back - obviously the teachers didn't do a decent job.

[Bravo]

sheesh.

nice girls really do finish last.

[nicegrrl]

that's okay - she's not really good at history.

*rolls eyes*

so you can't produce the book but you're standing by this idiotic comment about the Inuit.

if you took history in university you should be asking for your tuition fees back - obviously the teachers didn't do a decent job.

1) I never took history in college.
2) I am good at history.
3) Does anyone understand the purpose of the comment about homosexual orgies? If I have to explain it, Ill be seriously dissapointed. Robaie, you got it, right?
4) I learned about the child eating inuits in anthropology, not history and I can produce a professor that would stand by that idiotic comment if you like.

[Haggis]

And it only gets better and better.

[SpookyWriter]

1) I never took history in college.
2) I am good at history.
3) Does anyone understand the purpose of the comment about homosexual orgies? If I have to explain it, Ill be seriously dissapointed. Robaie, you got it, right?
4) I learned about the child eating inuits in anthropology, not history and I can produce a professor that would stand by that idiotic comment if you like.Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't anthropology the study of human history? Hmmm...

ETA: I'd ask for a ituit refund. (pun intended)

[Haggis]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't anthropology the study of human history? Hmmm...

ETA: I'd ask for a ituit refund. (pun intended)

Actually Spooky, anthropology is the study of cultures. Something nicegrrl doesn't believe in.

[nicegrrl]

no, you are wrong. Anthropology is not the study of human history. Biological anthropology is the more or less the study of human evolution. Cultural anthropology does not neccesarily involve any historical component. This isnt common knowledge?

[robeiae]

This isnt common knowledge?If it is, Spooky would know...he's pretty common.
:roll:

(You were owed that one, Spooky...plus, Carrie gave me five bucks to say it :D )

[nicegrrl]

Something nicegrrl doesn't believe in.

?

[veinglory]

This is BS. Cultures are not simply cultures. Some ways are more effective and reasonable and humane than others. .

Cultures are pretty much by defintion simply cultures. Each tends to be effective for the place where it developed. A New York suburbanite may feel superior to an Inuit living an (increasingly rarely found) traditional lifestyle. But leave them on the permafrost and you quickly see that 'superiority' is a matter of context. (A morning bath might normally be great for hygeine....)

ETA: a suitable thought with thanksgiving coming up

[Haggis]

I was kinda hoping you'd show up, VG.

[veinglory]

I am the proud descendent and flamebearer for two of the world most widely condemned inferior races; the Australian aborigine and the Irish. When the earth's environment goes to hell I confidantly expect my kin and the Inuit to inherit the earth. (After all we have strategies to cope with the extreme cold, the extreme heat and a whole heap to rain, right?)

[Haggis]

I am the proud descendent and flamebearer for two of the world most widely condemned inferior races; the Australian aborigine and the Irish. When the earth's environment goes to hell I confidantly expect my kin and the Inuit to inherit the earth. (After all we have strategies to cope with the extreme cold, the extreme heat and a whole heap to rain, right?)

And you eat your children, right? :D

[Popeyesays]

Well, Nicegrrl. I will admit that Arab culture is in a decline at the moment.
One should remember however, that without the Arab culture, none of the Greek and Roman classics would exist in the world today. Christian monasteries regularly cut up the works of Herodotus, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Aristotle, Plato, Demosthenes, etc. to make prayer books for the monks who largely could not read in the first place.

Islam preserved for all time those works, as well as the works of many Jewish scholars of the otherwise 'Dark Ages'. How many great Jewish scientists and scholars survived to instruct the world with their thoughts because they took refuge amongst the Muslim scholastic centers of Jerusalem, Alexandria, , Cordoba, Toledo, Baghdad and other cultural centers of the Islamic world while the Christian kings and priests sought to destroy judaism with the Inquisition?

Left to itself, Europe might never have recovered from the dark ages at all.

The cultural rot that set in in the seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth centuries AD are from other causes than stupidity.

Chemistry, Math, Philosophy, Physics all were nurtured and developed by the classical culture of Arabia and Islam--whatever problems we may face with unyielding religious intolerance from the authorities of that culture today.

Remember that a fringe, conservative, reactionary clergy have destroyed many religions before Islam faced that doom.

Regards,
Scott

[dclary]

Ok then, I'll try to be nice to you.

BTW, what jobs allow you and Billy to post here continuously all day? Tis the job I want.

I'm on a pay-per-post plan. I went around claiming to do a charity for crippled autistic girl scouts with degenerative baldness, and got 832 people to pay me 1 dollar per post.

[dclary]

Well, Nicegrrl. I will admit that Arab culture is in a decline at the moment.
One should remember however, that without the Arab culture, none of the Greek and Roman classics would exist in the world today. Christian monasteries regularly cut up the works of Herodotus, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Aristotle, Plato, Demosthenes, etc. to make prayer books for the monks who largely could not read in the first place.

Islam preserved for all time those works, as well as the works of many Jewish scholars of the otherwise 'Dark Ages'. How many great Jewish scientists and scholars survived to instruct the world with their thoughts because they took refuge amongst the Muslim scholastic centers of Jerusalem, Alexandria, , Cordoba, Toledo, Baghdad and other cultural centers of the Islamic world while the Christian kings and priests sought to destroy judaism with the Inquisition?

Left to itself, Europe might never have recovered from the dark ages at all.

The cultural rot that set in in the seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth centuries AD are from other causes than stupidity.

Chemistry, Math, Philosophy, Physics all were nurtured and developed by the classical culture of Arabia and Islam--whatever problems we may face with unyielding religious intolerance from the authorities of that culture today.

Remember that a fringe, conservative, reactionary clergy have destroyed many religions before Islam faced that doom.

Regards,
Scott

If this is true, why then did the jihad destroy the library at Alexandria?

And I've asked Bravo this: what would the muslims who cherished science, learning, and knowledge today say about Islamic leadership today, and its efforts to keep an entire chunk of the globe in the 12th century?

[Bravo]

If this is true, why then did the jihad destroy the library at Alexandria?


more ppl need to read wikipedia.

Ancient and modern sources identify four possible occasions for the destruction of the Library:

1. Caesar's conquest 48 BC
2. the attack of Aurelian in the 3rd century AD
3. the decree of Theophilus in 391 AD, and
4. the Muslim conquest in 642 AD or thereafter.


Although the actual circumstances and timing of the physical destruction of the library remains uncertain, it is however clear that by the 8th century AD, the library was no longer a significant institution and had ceased to function in any important capacity. Alexandria was not a major research center for the Islamic world. Moreover, if the collection had survived to the early 700s, it would very likely have been incorporated into the library of the Al-Azhar mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Azhar_mosque) (and later university) in Cairo. This collection has come down to the present intact, but does not include Alexandrine texts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

[dclary]

more ppl need to read wikipedia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria


So what are you saying? They didn't destroy the library at Alexandria?

[Bravo]

a) it's unclear.

b) if they did, it wasnt used as a library at that point

c) you need to back up your statements.

[billythrilly7th]

I'm just happy that Nic Cage found the scrolls that were originally at the library at Alexandria and that they weren't destroyed.

[SpookyWriter]

If it is, Spooky would know...he's pretty common.
:roll:

(You were owed that one, Spooky...plus, Carrie gave me five bucks to say it :D ):D

[dclary]

a) it's unclear.

b) if they did, it wasnt used as a library at that point

c) you need to back up your statements.

a) ok.

b) I didn't know that.

c) that's why I asked.

[Popeyesays]

If this is true, why then did the jihad destroy the library at Alexandria?

And I've asked Bravo this: what would the muslims who cherished science, learning, and knowledge today say about Islamic leadership today, and its efforts to keep an entire chunk of the globe in the 12th century?

Muhammed Himself would be ashamed of what the Mullahin do in His name.
But then, Jesus would be shamed by what His clergy have done in His name as well.

Solution: Do away with clergy. The Baha`i Writings removed all authority from the clergy and establishes no clergy of its own. This is one of the reasons the priest-ridden government of Iran opposes the faith so strongly.

Regards,
Scott

[SC Harrison]

Muhammed Himself would be ashamed of what the Mullahin do in His name.


I'm not so sure he would be that upset. He wasn't shy about attacking caravans to increase his wealth and swell the ranks of his followers.

Then again, almost everybody did that back then, so I guess I shouldn't be critical.

[Popeyesays]

I'm not so sure he would be that upset. He wasn't shy about attacking caravans to increase his wealth and swell the ranks of his followers.

Then again, almost everybody did that back then, so I guess I shouldn't be critical.

Actually, Muhammad was a trader and a caravan boss. Caravans certainly were subject to attacks by brigands, however Muhammed in the Qur'an says He never held a sword until He led the defense of Medina against the Meccan attackers.

Muhammad only allowed war if first attacked. Those outside Islam who entered into treaties and agreements with the Muslims were sacrosanct. They could not be touched.

But Islam changed at the hands of its clergy over time. Now we have what would make Muhammad shamed by His followers.

I put up the letter NOT to attack Islam, but rather to procure for Baha`i's in Iran what they deserve as citizens of Iran.

Already Baha`i holy places have been bulldozed and destroyed, Baha`i cemetaries dug up and desecrated. Almost eight hundred individuals have been executed or killed by mob violence for their faith in Iran just since Khomeini returned to Teheran. When the husbands of the family were shot, the widows would be billed for the cost of the bullets.

Baha`i marriages have been declared null and void and the children taken since the Baha`i mothers were 'prostitutes' under the law. Baha`i's due pensions have been denied them. Work papers and school papers are unavailable for Baha`i's since one must declare Islam, Zoroastrian, Christian or Jewish religion on those applications, Baha`i is not an allowed option, and Baha`i's cannot deny their faith.

All the precedents for genocide are in place already.

Almost 300,000 Baha`i's remain in Iran, unable to leave because they are denied papers to travel. There were more than 500,000 there before Khomeini's revolution.

So, do I blame Muhammad and Islam? No. I believe that the government of Iran is hag-ridden by clergy who see their chance to exalt themselves, and usurp the power of the citizens of Iran without any shame at all.

That's why I say that Muhammad would hide His face in shame at their actions in His name. Muhammad wrote clearly in the Qur'an that there must be NO coercion in religion. It's time the government of Iran embraced that policy.

Regards,
Scott

[Tilly]

Popeyesays, has this deteriorated under the current Iranian president, or has this been the situation since the Iranian revolution?

[SC Harrison]

Actually, Muhammad was a trader and a caravan boss. Caravans certainly were subject to attacks by brigands, however Muhammed in the Qur'an says He never held a sword until He led the defense of Medina against the Meccan attackers.



I'll get back to you later on this, as I can't do proper searching at work, but I recall something about "glorious raids" back in the early days. Of course, I haven't read the entire Quran, and have only read English-translated excerpts, so there may have been some things misinterpreted.

By the way, this is not an attack on you or Islam, I just love a good arg...discussion about historical motivations and such.

[nicegrrl]

Regardless of what Mohammad would think, the Bahai consider him a prophet anyways. Strangely, the muslim fundies oppress minority sects of their own religion worse than they oppress religions that are completely different.

Poppeysaries, I personally do not accept the apologist rationalizations of Mohammads actions, but I dont argue the fact that it is neccesary to interpret mohammad and Islam in some progressive light.

[Bravo]

Regardless of what Mohammad would think, the Bahai consider him a prophet anyways. Strangely, the muslim fundies oppress minority sects of their own religion worse than they oppress religions that are completely different.


mmm, actually bahai is not a sect of islam but a separate religion.

[nicegrrl]

It's often considered a sort of sect of Islam because its roots are so closely tied to Islamic culture.

[Bravo]

yeah, well they themselves consider it a new religion.

[nicegrrl]

I think that is largely because of the extremely exclusionary reaction that mainstream muslims have against the Bahai. From a theological perspective, I think Bahai is to Islam what Mormonism is to christianity. I consider mormons to be christian.

[badducky]

You don't get to make that decision, nicegrrl. It's not your faith. The only ones who get to make that decision are the members of the faith.

[Bravo]

I think that is largely because of the extremely exclusionary reaction that mainstream muslims have against the Bahai. From a theological perspective, I think Bahai is to Islam what Mormonism is to christianity. I consider mormons to be christian.

lol.

youre not nearly as informed as you think you are.

this isnt a situation where muslims are pushing bahais out.

it's a situation where bahai's themselves consider themselves a separate religion:


bahai....has become universally recognized as an independent religion established throughout the world.

http://www.bahai.org/features/intro


some more research and less manipulative & belligerent rhetoric will take you a long way.

[veinglory]

Based on the few followers of Bahai that I know it certainly seems to be a separate religion. If it was not at least somewhat distinct at a basic level there would not be the current attempts at oppression.

[Bravo]

If it was not at least somewhat distinct at a basic level there would not be the current attempts at oppression.

maybe, but that's almost irrelevant.

it was just a point of fact, that in this situation, bahais themselves consider themselves as following a sep. religion.

[veinglory]

Indeed.

[Popeyesays]

Popeyesays, has this deteriorated under the current Iranian president, or has this been the situation since the Iranian revolution?

It's hard to trace the beginnings of this particular oppression in some ways. You might consider it goes back as far as the killing of Ali, the 1st Imam by the hardliner followers of Abu Bakr and Usman, and that is the beginning of the split between Shi'ih Islam and Sun'ni Islam that causes so much sectarian violence in Iraq today.

The Bab was the forerunner of Baha`u'llah, and that was in 1844 when a descendant of Muhammad through His daughter Fatima declared Himself to be "the Gate" through which the Mihdi or Messiah of Islam would return.

The Baha`i Faith is considered a heresy by most Muslims because they believe that the phrase "Seal of the Prophets" means there will be no more Prophets after Muhammad.

The Bab and Baha`u'llah made clear claim to be Apostles of God affter Muhammad and this unleashed a wave of violent reaction by the established Persian authorities, both civil and religious.

The Bab was publicly executed on July 9th, 1850. About eighteen months later two bereaved Babis (followers of the Bab) made an attempt to assassinate the Shah of Iran. It was amateurish in the extreme, they shot at him with flintlock pistols loaded with bird shot rather than pistol balls and he was barely injured. It was a conspiracy of the two by themselves but the government hunted down and executed or murdered by vigilante justice somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000 Babi's.

Baha`u'llah was an important figure in the Babi movement and the son of a Noble House in the court of the Shah. He was arrested and held for months in an unlit dungeon where He had His first revelatory experience.

Baha`u'llah was released because the ambassadors of several foreign nations including Russia and Great Britain knew His family and agitated at the court to have Him tried or exonnerated. The Shah exiled Him, and over the next forty years He was exiled from Tehran to Baghdad to Adrianople, to COnstantinople and finally to an Ottoman prison city across the bay from Haifa in Palestine. The Shrine of the Bab is the most remarkable landmark on the seaward slope of Mount Carmel and the gardens surrounding it are known in Haifa as "The Persian Gardens" They are quite popular for wedding pictures in that half of Israel.

Persecutions have continued intermittently since that time in Persia (now Iran). The intermittent violence and persecution today has been ongoing since the fall of the Shah, though there were pogroms in the 1950's, 1930's and earlier.

Sorry for the long-windedness. One can read histories of the Baha`i Faith.
Dawnbreakers is by Nabil, (trans. and edited by Shoghi Effendi Rabbani)Nabil was an eye-witness to most ofl the events. He was also a meticulous interviewer of those who witnessed things he did not. http://bahaindex.com/writings/DawnBreakers/ (THe internet version presents all the footnotes translated into English. In the original edition, the footnotes appeared in the language of the original interview, French, English, Farsi, Russian, etc.)Also God Passes By, by Shoghi Effendi Rabbani, Thief in the Night, by William Sears.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

The Baha`i Faith grew out of Islam just as Christianity grew out of Judaism. Christianity is distinct from Judaism, but without Judaism to preceed it, it would be crippled. So, the Baha`i Faith is equally independent. If it were not so, it would simply be a messianic movement within Islam and would not have been a heresy to the Mullahs.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

I'll get back to you later on this, as I can't do proper searching at work, but I recall something about "glorious raids" back in the early days. Of course, I haven't read the entire Quran, and have only read English-translated excerpts, so there may have been some things misinterpreted.

By the way, this is not an attack on you or Islam, I just love a good arg...discussion about historical motivations and such.

Actually, so do I. I have run three different forums to discuss the history of the Holocaust and hold out against the folks who would say it never happened. Thankfully that whole dialogue has sputtered into confusion on the part of the deniers when David Irving admitted that the holocaust did indeed happen when he was on trial in Germany.

If you want a parallel English version of the Qur'an you can download it as part of Ocean, a free library of religious texts for Islam, Baha`i, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh and Tao primary texts.

The free library offers four different English translations of the Qur'an: Rodwell, Pickthall, Palmer and Yusuf Ali. In the Baha`i section is a wonderful history of Islam titled Muhammad and the Course of Islam, by H. M. Balyuzi. that has been a course resource at many universities in Britain and in the U.S.

[nicegrrl]

If it was not at least somewhat distinct at a basic level there would not be the current attempts at oppression.

If it were not so, it would simply be a messianic movement within Islam and would not have been a heresy to the Mullahs.


Have you noticed the Islamic world? They consider the ahmadia heretics. The ahmadia actually consider themselves muslims. It is totally not true that the Bahai religion has to be distinct in order for it to be oppressed. I know what the bahai faith is and I am well aware that they do not call themselves a sect of Islam, but looking at their places of worship and religious expressions, Bahai shows a clear relation to the islamic world.

[dclary]

Muhammed Himself would be ashamed of what the Mullahin do in His name.
But then, Jesus would be shamed by what His clergy have done in His name as well.

Solution: Do away with clergy. The Baha`i Writings removed all authority from the clergy and establishes no clergy of its own. This is one of the reasons the priest-ridden government of Iran opposes the faith so strongly.

Regards,
Scott

You are an excellent spokesman for your faith, and this is a fantastic answer. Thank you for this (and the subsequent posts that go into greater detail on Bahai).

[Popeyesays]

Have you noticed the Islamic world? They consider the ahmadia heretics. The ahmadia actually consider themselves muslims. It is totally not true that the Bahai religion has to be distinct in order for it to be oppressed. I know what the bahai faith is and I am well aware that they do not call themselves a sect of Islam, but looking at their places of worship and religious expressions, Bahai shows a clear relation to the islamic world.

One has no choice but to notice it these days. I've studied the culture for about forty years. That includes seven years before I ever heard of the Baha`i Faith.

Mainstream Christianity has feuded with Christian Scientists, Pentecostals, Mormons, etc. for as long as any of those branches have existed. Between the curcifixion and the Council of Nicaea the primary cause of a violent death in any Christian city were riots between Gnostics, Arians, Nestorians etc. all of whom were arguing amongst each other.

Occasionally violent strife between Muslims is as old as the passing of Muhammad. He lay on His deathbed while Fatima and Ali tended Him. Outside Abu Bakr and others were usurping the transition that Muhammad had made clear. I know all about the Ahmadiyyih, even know a couple personally, though I know many more Muslims here in Oklahoma than Ahmadiyyih. A lot of liberal Muslims will carefuly embrace members of that sect as brothers in Islam. Most conservative Muslims would rather die first.

Sectarian violence is one thing. Pogrom is another thing entirely.

Regards,
Scott

[Medievalist]

It's a text based on some guy who lived with the inuit for several decades in the 19th century and another anthropologist from the early 90s and I think the location was on Baffin Island- the title is very long and is something like "anthropological lanf based lifestyle in the Inuit in Baffin Island"- basically the title summarizes the topic of the book, so it difficult for me to remember in precise detail.

I'd like a citation, if you're asserting that Inuit had a socialized, accepted practice, of eating their children, rather than a few aberrant nutters who may have engaged in cannibalism.

The references to cannibalism in Inuit oral legends make it pretty clear that it was, to them, one of the horrors of horrors.

[nicegrrl]

I'd like a citation, if you're asserting that Inuit had a socialized, accepted practice, of eating their children, rather than a few aberrant nutters who may have engaged in cannibalism.

I really dont understand why this issue offends people. Inuit aside, there have been a number of small groups of cannibalistic peoples (who mainly eat people that are already dead). And cannibals aside, there are many foreign cultures that are rife with inhumane practices. Sorry, I wasnt born a westerner and I have never sympathized with the west's tendancy to romanticize the lifestyles of poor, ignorant, backward peoples. My mother knew my father for 2 hours before getting married- that's typical of traditional cultures, its also a miserable practice that shouldnt be accepted under the banner of tolerance.

[dclary]

I don't think anyone's upset with the statement, girrl. They're upset because you haven't offered any basis for the statement.

If you said "Inuits ate children like popcorn" and it was a widely known historical fact, no one would have an issue. The issue is that current anthropological knowledge of the inuit seems to state the very opposite -- they're just asking you to cite your source.

[Medievalist]

It's not offensive in itself -- I can tell you lots about similar practices in ancient cultures.

But you have a natural gift for uttering offensive assertions as if they were inane comments about the weather, and they're not about the weather.

You condemn an entire group of language speakers, the Arabs, then sneer in passing at the Inuit, then bemoan the fact that you're called on it.

This is beyond ignorant ethnocentrism; it's cultural bigotry. You may certainly assert a preference for one culture over another, or choose the sorts of behaviors you engage in, but condemning entire groups of people in passing, particularly from depths of stupendous ignorance, that is not acceptable.

[dclary]

For the record, I am a cultural bigot as well. I do not believe all cultures are equal. Certainly all are valid in the fact that they ARE cultures. But I also believe that we do not advance as a civilization until we weed out the cultures that keep us on the cusp of barbarity.

[nicegrrl]

This is beyond ignorant ethnocentrism; it's cultural bigotry. You may certainly assert a preference for one culture over another, or choose the sorts of behaviors you engage in, but condemning entire groups of people in passing, particularly from depths of stupendous igorance, that is not acceptable.

Because I know something other people dont know, I am ignorant? Seriously, Ill give you the email of the prof that repeated several times in class how some clan of inuit families ate their children.

And as for Arabs being stupid, well in seriousness, they are not all stupid- most of arab cultures have just been in a severe decline for the last 1000 years or so. That's sort of an odd statement since many of the regions that are now arabic speaking, were pushed into the arab language over the last 1300 years. The arab language came with Islam and the arabization came with the enforcement of Quranic authority. Hence, being "arabic" isnt the problem, its being from a cuture that has been ruled with strict theocratic authority for many centuries. But today, arabs are stupid. Not because they are born stupid, but because the aforementioned problem of coming from a culture that shows the scars of centuries of dogmatic stringency.

[Medievalist]

For the record, I am a cultural bigot as well. I do not believe all cultures are equal. Certainly all are valid in the fact that they ARE cultures. But I also believe that we do not advance as a civilization until we weed out the cultures that keep us on the cusp of barbarity.

Oh I dunno . . . I can think of a few ancient Celtic practices I'd like to bring back.

The thing is, one culture's Right Rational Way is another's sickening perversity.

And ultimately, it comes down to the centuries old question:

Would you want your sister to marry a Walloon/Quaker/Paluan/Republican/Presbyterian/Yankee/[fill in the blank]Gopher?

Deal with individuals as individuals.

[nicegrrl]

You may certainly assert a preference for one culture over another, or choose the sorts of behaviors you engage in, but condemning entire groups of people in passing, particularly from depths of stupendous igorance, that is not acceptable

If I condemn entire groups of people, why should you assume I do it out of stupendous ignorance?

I condemn Saudi Arabian culture. Not out of ignorance, but because of everything Ive ever heard about it. Im sure there are some aspects of Saudi Arabian culture that are positive, I know that there are rare individuals that rebel against this culture and I know that saudi arabian culture is unfairly manipulated by an authoritarian regime. Be that as it may, I condemn the end result of this- Saudi Arabian culture.

[estateconnection]

... Sorry, I wasnt born a westerner and I have never sympathized with the west's tendancy to romanticize the lifestyles of poor, ignorant, backward peoples. My mother knew my father for 2 hours before getting married- that's typical of traditional cultures, its also a miserable practice that shouldnt be accepted under the banner of tolerance.

So would a cultural phenomenon like say, sucking d!ck to get your cell phone bill paid fall under the banner of tolerance for a gold digger or the romantic lifestyles of poor, ignorant or backward peoples?

[Medievalist]

Because I know something other people dont know, I am ignorant?

You've yet to demonstrate you know much of anything, about anything.

Seriously, Ill give you the email of the prof that repeated several times in class how some clan of inuit families ate their children.

I don't care what the prof said, or you said; I requested a citation. I'm not interested in hearsay.

And as for Arabs being stupid, well in seriousness, they are not all stupid- most of arab cultures have just been in a severe decline for the last 1000 years or so. That's sort of an odd statement since many of the regions that are now arabic speaking, were pushed into the arab language over the last 1300 years. The arab language came with Islam and the arabization came with the enforcement of Quranic authority. Hence, being "arabic" isnt the problem, its being from a cuture that has been ruled with strict theocratic authority for many centuries. But today, arabs are stupid. Not because they are born stupid, but because the aforementioned problem of coming from a culture that shows the scars of centuries of dogmatic stringency.

You are both ignorant, and a cultural barbarian.

Have you been to an Arab speaking nation ? Do you know anything about the influences of Arabic culture on Western culture? Look up zero, for instance, and algebra.

Cultures are not stupid; individuals are, and I'm going to refrain from making a case in point.

[nicegrrl]

The thing is, one culture's Right Rational Way is another's sickening perversity.


I have no interest in acting or speaking as though the most ethical way of viewing things is to assume that no way is more ethical than the other.

I will not withdraw criticism because it is some culture's practice. Making children get married, genital mutilation, death for adultery, looking at natural signs for judicial decisions and many more cultural practices are just plain wrong.

[Medievalist]

If I condemn entire groups of people, why should you assume I do it out of stupendous ignorance?

Because you post things like this:

I condemn Saudi Arabian culture. Not out of ignorance, but because of everything Ive ever heard about it. Im sure there are some aspects of Saudi Arabian culture that are positive, I know that there are rare individuals that rebel against this culture and I know that saudi arabian culture is unfairly manipulated by an authoritarian regime. Be that as it may, I condemn the end result of this- Saudi Arabian culture.

The Sauds are a single family, from a larger tribe; they are in no way representative of "Arab culture." One can't, actually, speak of "Arab culture," since the Arab speaking peoples encompass a variety of cultures, and have, for thousands of years.

In fact, Arabic was a written language with laws and literature and history, long before English.

Arabs were practicing surgery and astronomy and sanitation when the West was still trying to decide if witches burned or floated.

There are incredible, gifted, brilliant, compassionate, intelligent Arabs in every field of human endeavor -- despite your bigotry.

[nicegrrl]

Have you been to an Arab speaking nation ? Do you know anything about the influences of Arabic culture on Western culture? Look up zero, for instance, and algebra.

I have on many occaisions.
0 and algebra? woo hoo, we have zero and alebra from them and calculus, relativity, penacillin, the printing press (which they illegalized), the telescope, cars, planes, air conditioning, calculators, computers etc. from the west.
I recall reading about a lot of Islamic scholars copying texts of ancient greek philosophers when I learned of Islam's role in scientific advancement.

Cultures are not stupid; individuals are, and I'm going to refrain from making a case in point.


That is most certainly wrong. Cultures make individuals stupid.

[nicegrrl]

The Sauds are a single family, from a larger tribe; they are in no way representative of "Arab culture." One can't, actually, speak of "Arab culture," since the Arab speaking peoples encompass a variety of cultures, and have, for thousands of years.



I did not say or imply that the saudis are representative of Arab culture.

There are incredible, gifted, brilliant, compassionate, intelligent Arabs in every field of human endeavor -- despite your bigotry.

There are not nearly as many gifted, brilliant, compassionate, intelligent arabs as there are gifted, brilliant, compassionate intelligent americans, jews, japanese, Indians, Chinese or Europeans.

Just ask the nobel committee.

[Medievalist]

I have no interest in acting or speaking as though the most ethical way of viewing things is to assume that no way is more ethical than the other.

And no one asked you to; ethics, by the way, are entirely culturally driven.

I will not withdraw criticism because it is some culture's practice. Making children get married, genital mutilation, death for adultery, looking at natural signs for judicial decisions and many more cultural practices are just plain wrong.

So are:

Child prostitution, unwanted children, drug abuse . . .

You err, however, in condemning an entire culture. That's like cultures who view all Western women as whores because we are publicly indecent, in their terms.

Or being disgusted because people eat pork, or use their left hand to handle food, . . .

Argue against the practice, condemn individuals, even, but not an entire of group of people who may not even engage in the things you find so appalling.

[nicegrrl]

And no one asked you to; ethics, by the way, are entirely culturally driven.



Well, I dont believe that. I believe that some things are objectively right and wrong and that there is a real way of determining what is objectively right and wrong and that the mindframe of secular humanism is a good way of doing this.


Child prostitution, unwanted children, drug abuse . . .


Child prostitution is wrong and illegal.
unwanted children- that is sort of problematic, hence we have birth control.
drug abuse- mostly illegal.



You err, however, in condemning an entire culture. That's like cultures who view all Western women as whores because we are publicly indecent, in their terms.

They are wrong and we are right.

Or being disgusted because people eat pork, or use their left hand to handle food, . . .

Left hand- they are wrong, the west is right although the practice is derived from teaching children to clean up after they go to the bathroom with their left hand- so in a sense it used to be practical.

pork- they are wrong unless they condemn eating all animals.

Argue against the practice, condemn individuals, even, but not an entire of group of people who may not even engage in the things you find so appalling.

Right, so if one person does it, its bad, but when 1 million people do it, it becomes ok. Please, I see no reason why you cant condemn an entire group of people for unethical behavior. If they all do it, well they are all doing wrong.
[/QUOTE]

[dclary]

So would a cultural phenomenon like say, sucking d!ck to get your cell phone bill paid fall under the banner of tolerance for a gold digger or the romantic lifestyles of poor, ignorant or backward peoples?

And where can I meet her?

[TheGaffer]

And where can I meet her?

I don't know anyone who is interested in a shriveled 850-year-old dong, bro.

[Popeyesays]

Pick a definition, guys.

Main Entry: 1stu·pid
Pronunciation: 'stü-p&d, 'styü-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French stupide, from Latin stupidus, from stupEre to be numb, be astonished -- more at TYPE
1 a : slow of mind : OBTUSE b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c : lacking intelligence or reason : BRUTISH
2 : dulled in feeling or sensation : TORPID <still stupid from the sedative>
3 : marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting : SENSELESS <a stupid decision>
4 a : lacking interest or point <a stupid event> b : VEXATIOUS, EXASPERATING <the stupid car won't start>
- stu·pid·ly adverb
- stu·pid·ness noun
synonyms STUPID, DULL, DENSE, CRASS, DUMB mean lacking in power to absorb ideas or impressions. STUPID implies a slow-witted or dazed state of mind that may be either congenital or temporary <stupid students just keeping the seats warm> <stupid with drink>. DULL suggests a slow or sluggish mind such as results from disease, depression, or shock <monotonous work that leaves the mind dull>. DENSE implies a thickheaded imperviousness to ideas <too dense to take a hint>. CRASS suggests a grossness of mind precluding discrimination or delicacy <a crass, materialistic people>. DUMB applies to an exasperating obtuseness or lack of comprehension <too dumb to figure out what's going on>.

Actually, Arabic means having to do with the Arabian Peninsula. There are dozens of cultures united in the fact that they follow the Qur'an. Those cultures are as disparate as the Moriscoes of Spanish descent and the Hadendowa of the Sudanese deserts.

To call them uniformly "stupid" is stupid in itself. Not to mention bigoted in the extreme. Baha`i's are taught to consider NO human being as intrinsically better than oneself, that all humanity, of whatever ethnicity, gender, religion or culture are equal in the sight of God and should be equal in the sight of any human being. The only thing not acceptable is intolerance.

From the Arabic Hidden Words:

68. O CHILDREN OF MEN!
Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

[nicegrrl]

So would a cultural phenomenon like say, sucking d!ck to get your cell phone bill paid fall under the banner of tolerance for a gold digger or the romantic lifestyles of poor, ignorant or backward peoples?

the former- I do not condemn what consenting adults do with themselves.

stupid: which definition? I pick popey. just kidding.

[estateconnection]

And where can I meet her?


Well, if what nicegrrl says is true and she wants to marry for money to concentrate on her writing ...

[estateconnection]

the former- I do not condemn what consenting adults do with themselves.

Ah, but you said yourself that your mother married your father after only knowing him for two hours, and it was a ....

"miserable practice that shouldnt be accepted under the banner of tolerence"

Was she not a consenting adult? Wouldn't you consider what you said in that case condemnation?

[Godfather]

dachau blues, those poor jews.







remember the gypsies too. the nazi's were not kind to the gypsies.

[Alan Yee]

remember the gypsies too. the nazi's were not kind to the gypsies.

And gays, or at least, people accused of being gay. Can't forget that. Sadly, these days it isn't Nazis not being kind to them.

[robeiae]

The thing is, one culture's Right Rational Way is another's sickening perversity.Yeahhhhhhhh...but there are some lines out there, no? Otherwise, you would be suggesting an unfettered big-S for evaluating everything under the Sun. We can't have that. Even Nieztsche would be on my side...

[Bravo]

Even Nieztsche would be on my side...

quit doing that!

[robeiae]

quit doing that!Hey! You saw it. Saw it with your own eyes! Medievalist challenged me! Gloves off, stick down, right in the center of the ice! She challenged me!

[Popeyesays]

Actually, I started this thread to make folks aware of a potentialy calamitous situation in human rights around the world.

If I was aware how it was going to be twisted into nonsensical comments, I would not have done it.

Regards,
Scott

[nicegrrl]

Was she not a consenting adult?

There might be a state somewhere where the age of consent is that low. South Carolina maybe?

[SpookyWriter]

Actually, I started this thread to make folks aware of a potentialy calamitous situation in human rights around the world.

If I was aware how it was going to be twisted into nonsensical comments, I would not have done it.

Regards,
ScottWelcome to TIO/Political views thread where nothing remains serious for more than a half page. For more serious discussions on human rights, I suggest OP. At least they are sober until 2:00pm.

[robeiae]

Actually, I started this thread to make folks aware of a potentialy calamitous situation in human rights around the world.

If I was aware how it was going to be twisted into nonsensical comments, I would not have done it.

Regards,
ScottScott, all threads that last around here tend to go through these kinds of phases. Relax. It's a good thread with some excellent and informative posts.

Besides, my comments here may seem nonsensical, but they are quite serious with regard to their underlying subject matter--subjectivity with regard to cultural practices and values. And Bravo is just complaining because he doesn't want to get drawn back into discussions right now.

[Popeyesays]

There might be a state somewhere where the age of consent is that low. South Carolina maybe?

"age of Consent" is not a universal truth. It is relative to the culture. As late as the 1950's Jerry Lee Lewis married his cousin who was 13. It was done with parental consent.

In the time of Jesus or Muhammad a girl became a woman at her first menstruation, at that point she was "age of consent", and eligible for marriage, or if a slave, less formal arrangements than marriage.

You'll note that Moses has nothing to say about "upon reaching the age of 18".

Regards,
Scott

[SpookyWriter]

"age of Consent" is not a universal truth. It is relative to the culture. As late as the 1950's Jerry Lee Lewis married his cousin who was 13. It was done with parental consent.

In the time of Jesus or Muhammad a girl became a woman at her first menstruation, at that point she was "age of consent", and eligible for marriage, or if a slave, less formal arrangements than marriage.

You'll note that Moses has nothing to say about "upon reaching the age of 18".

Regards,
ScottTry Texas. I saw girls in some a few rural areas who couldn't be more than 13 or 15 with wedding rings.

[Popeyesays]

Islam, when it was founded elevated the position of women in the society greatly. Before the laws of the Qur'an a woman was only a chattle, her children could be taken from her and left exposed to die if the head of the clan decreed it.

What we recognize as the stifling coverings inflicted upon women is NOT inflicted by the Qur'an, but existed for generations before the Qur'an was revealed. The Qur'an only decress that men and women must dress "modestly" and the Hadith (sayings of Muhammad) define that as men wearing pants and women covering their bosoms as well as the groins.

This would have been a great relief from the burka garments demanded before Muhammad was born, but those who followed Him were more comfortable dragging women back to their subservient positions than they were in following the dictates of their own Prophet. Again we see the clergy polluting the religion.

Regards,
Scott

[nicegrrl]

"age of Consent" is not a universal truth. It is relative to the culture. As late as the 1950's Jerry Lee Lewis married his cousin who was 13. It was done with parental consent.

Yeah, ok. My mom got married in 1979. My parents are biological relatives in multiple ways. Apprently, you think this is appropriate since it was appropriate to their culture. And your opinion is complete BS. Would you like to get married to someone 28 years old that you hadnt met when you were 15?

In the time of Jesus or Muhammad a girl became a woman at her first menstruation, at that point she was "age of consent", and eligible for marriage, or if a slave, less formal arrangements than marriage.



This is still the "age of consent" in many parts of the world for children who have no educational opportunities, ways of supporting themselves or realistic ways of backing out of the marriage. Oh, but wait- we shouldnt condemn these people because they are a group. Their way of doing things is ok relative to their culture. So even though we will throw a fit if a 13 yr old has to face the oppression of walking across the street to the next eckerds to get her morning after pill because the pharmacist has issues, we are fine if 13 yr olds are told to get married in some other culture because those are 'other' people and they get to do things some other way and the concepts of freedom, reproductive choice etc. dont apply to them.

[nicegrrl]

Islam, when it was founded elevated the position of women in the society greatly. Before the laws of the Qur'an a woman was only a chattle, her children could be taken from her and left exposed to die if the head of the clan decreed it.

This isnt really true. Islam did not elevate the position of women, nor do I think it reduced it. Women were not chattel before Islam. Mohammad's first wife was a prosperous merchant, hired him and asked him to marry her. How could she have done this if women were chattel? Not all clans treated women the same way. Women in Medina were better off than women in Mecca (according to hadiths- Mohammad's followers become upset when they move to Medina because the women have the upper hand). The Quran does speak against killing infant girls. It is not possible to say how prevalent that practice was before Islam.

What we recognize as the stifling coverings inflicted upon women is NOT inflicted by the Qur'an, but existed for generations before the Qur'an was revealed. The Qur'an only decress that men and women must dress "modestly" and the Hadith (sayings of Muhammad) define that as men wearing pants and women covering their bosoms as well as the groins.

This is oddly true. The Quran does not say that much about veiling. It does state that women should cover themselves, but it doesnt really specify how much they should cover.

[Medievalist]

Condemn the practice, not the entire culture.

And avoid the patently moronic statements like "Arabs are stupid."

[robeiae]

Condemn the practice, not the entire culture.Right. Cutting someone open to let the evil spirits escape may be an acceptable practice in some cultures, but there is nothing 'right' about it; it is entirely fair and correct to label the practice as ignorant and to oppose it from outside and in, if it is found to be still going on. ;)

[Stew21]

Bad analogy time:
condemning a whole culture for the wrong practices of a few is like saying because PA is a piece of **** scam "publisher" all publishing houses in the entire publishing industry are pieces of ****. Right?
:D

[Medievalist]

Right. Cutting someone open to let the evil spirits escape may be an acceptable practice in some cultures, but there is nothing 'right' about it; it is entirely fair and correct to label the practice as ignorant and to oppose it from outside and in, if it is found to be still going on. ;)


Someone told you I'd engaged in a little trepanning?

It does work you know . . .

And I've got to get my bell, book and candle all right and tight for a little work . . . .

;)

[robeiae]

Bad analogy time:
condemning a whole culture for the wrong practices of a few is like saying because PA is a piece of **** scam "publisher" all publishing houses in the entire publishing industry are pieces of ****. Right?
:DOnly if you already have a book deal...

[veinglory]

In cultures without another more effective strategy to deal with mental illness etc, cutting, burning or other ritual exorcisms may have enormous psychosomatic benefits or even bring about a cure. It is only disfunctional if the practice continues after a more effective alternative has been developed. Given our rather slow progress in that area it is not too suprising that ritual exorcism still occurs in the US although the physically invassive variants are now rather rare. (But exhaustion and sleep deprivation are still commonly part of the ritual)

[robeiae]

In cultures without another more effective strategy to deal with mental illness etc, cutting, burning or other ritual exorcisms may have enormous psychosomatic benefits or even bring about a cure. It is only disfunctional if the practice continues after a more effective alternative has been developed.VG, I think it goes without saying that more effective alternatives are being assumed in my bit. Still, even in the case where there are none, ends don't justify means. There's still nothing right about practices based on flawed or incomplete knowledge that inflict intentional harm on people without a demonstrable benefit. And the potential of pschosomatic benefits is nothing more than a potentiality; also, the existence of such benefits are not a given, nor are they inarguable when they appear to exist.

BTW, I would argue that there are many current practices in the field of medicine, accepted by mainstream doctors, that are not 'right.' Course, that's mostly my opinion, but we shall see...

[veinglory]

I do tend to think ends can justify means, from placebos to chemotherapy. If a little consentually inflicted damage will effect a cure.

Psychosomatic effects are rather more than a potential--but well established in some areas. I think they should be more widely used. Prayer for people in hospital is a good case to argue that cultural practices have a measureable benefit. Of course that is a 'no harm' example and so not contraversial. But until recent many doctor's actively discouraged it--it boggles the mind.

I think that when alternatives appear cultures tend to naturally adopt them and drop those old ways for less harmful ones. Not always straight away, of course, and there are things that can slow the process down (focussing on culture rather than practice being one of them).

[robeiae]

I do tend to think ends can justify means, from placebos to chemotherapy. If a little consentually inflicted damage will effect a cure.Sure, if the likely consequences of the process are predicated on empirical evidence. But when intentional harm is a part of a process where the cure is not actually a likely and/or predictable consequence...

I think that when alternatives appear cultures tend to naturally adopt them and drop those old ways for less harmful ones. Not always straight away, of course, and there are things that can slow the process down (focussing on culture rather than practice being one of them).
I agree.

[Popeyesays]

Yeah, ok. My mom got married in 1979. My parents are biological relatives in multiple ways. Apprently, you think this is appropriate since it was appropriate to their culture. And your opinion is complete BS. Would you like to get married to someone 28 years old that you hadnt met when you were 15?



This is still the "age of consent" in many parts of the world for children who have no educational opportunities, ways of supporting themselves or realistic ways of backing out of the marriage. Oh, but wait- we shouldnt condemn these people because they are a group. Their way of doing things is ok relative to their culture. So even though we will throw a fit if a 13 yr old has to face the oppression of walking across the street to the next eckerds to get her morning after pill because the pharmacist has issues, we are fine if 13 yr olds are told to get married in some other culture because those are 'other' people and they get to do things some other way and the concepts of freedom, reproductive choice etc. dont apply to them.

This is a splendid example of trying to imprint modern moral constructs on historical practices. Marriage is not for romance in most cultures, it is to create functional family groups, protect offspring and provide for the transfer of wealth from generation to generation. Romantic 'love' is a new priority. It's nice to have it, but it's not a cultural imperative by any means.

Muhammad's first wife, Khadija, was indeed a merchant, but her ability to control the wealth of her family and deceased husband was sorely tried because she was a woman without a husband. Muhammad was affiliated with the business before he married Khadija. It was a wise chice on her part, it solved the problems caused by the death of her husband.

Women had more independence in the oasis cities like Mecca and Medina than they had in the nomadic cultures, but the nomadic Arabs were the majority, not the minority.

Regards,
Scott

[Godfather]

And gays, or at least, people accused of being gay. Can't forget that. Sadly, these days it isn't Nazis not being kind to them.

yeah, now its republicans.

[English Dave]

This is a splendid example of trying to imprint modern moral constructs on historical practices. Marriage is not for romance in most cultures,



Yes it is. In my culture. And my culture is you love someone or you don't.
It might not work on a third of cases, but I'll take that 66% chance.

And I don't give a crap about religion.