Yet another one

[blacbird]

When will decent committed religious Christians stop listening to these guys, and sending them the rent money?:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15536263/

caw

[billythrilly7th]

sending them the rent money?:


When faith takes over from fear in the religious arena.

Or when the motivating factor for religion is faith instead of fear.

Whichever you like best.

Thank you.

[poetinahat]

Based on that article alone, the guy's not got a case to answer... yet. There's only somebody making accusations, but he won't substantiate them.

I wonder if "people are supporting him via PM's and rep points" as well.

[TheGaffer]

He did resign, though, didn't he?

Here's a little more background from Salon's Lauren Handler, who wrote a book called "Righteous: Dispatches from the Evangelical Youth Movement," as I'm really not well-versed in this area. Of course, being from Salon, she's more likely to come from a liberal POV, but this description seems fairly straight-forward.

"Ted Haggard may not just be the most important evangelical you've never heard of, but the most important evangelical, period.

"Joel Osteen may have the largest church in the nation. His Lakewood congregation packs the Compaq Center to bask in his blinding smile and equally blinding promise of the great financial wealth that only faith in Jesus can deliver. But his minions are a paltry bunch compared with the 30 million members of Haggard’s National Association of Evangelicals.

"Rick Warren may be the bestselling evangelical scribe since the Bible's original autographs. His 'Purpose-Driven Life' has sold more copies than any other nonfiction book in history, that is, if you don’t consider the Bible nonfiction. But he’s hardly got the ear of the president, with whom he doesn't always see eye to eye (or tooth for tooth).

"And even James Dobson, long heralded as the most influential evangelical in the world, lacks the pull with the evangelical movement he once did. Dobson never takes off his suit jacket, even at his desk, while Haggard can't stand the feel of anything but denim against his skin. Dobson has been seen by many evangelicals as stepping too far into the 'corrupt' dark side of Washington since he launched his PAC, while Haggard manages his influence carefully without the tarnish of politics ever marring his flawless gleam. It's Haggard who is the bionic hero of the young cadets and airmen he ministers to in his own megachurch, just down the road from Dobson's Focus on the Family. In Colorado Springs -- known alternately as the Vatican and the Washington of the evangelical world -- it is Haggard who is king, the crony and the conscience of his youthful parishioners as well as his president.

"Which is why it matters so that Haggard seems to have fallen. The Mark Foley scandal inspired plenty of people to question their devotion to the Republican Party. But Foley is a politician; most evangelicals would already suspect him of thinly cloaking his identity in a three-piece, pinstriped superego. Haggard, on the other hand, has always represented the real deal. He's the one John Wayne would have tapped for his posse. He's the one who represents most how deeply political this evangelical population can be, while always disdaining the notion of politics, always cleaving toward the ranch rather than the Hill.

[wordmonkey]

When faith takes over from fear in the religious arena.

Or when the motivating factor for religion is faith instead of fear.

I am shaken to the core.

You said something that I not only kinda agree with, but my immediate reaction was not to punch your avatar.

This is the end times! Prepare for the rapture. I agree with billy t!

;)

Though in fairness, believe what I tell you or you're going to hell kinda makes faith about fear, doesn't it?

[wordmonkey]

Based on that article alone, the guy's not got a case to answer... yet. There's only somebody making accusations, but he won't substantiate them.

Yeah, 'cos if it was all bogus he would still have quit.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[TheGaffer]

Based on that article alone, the guy's not got a case to answer... yet. There's only somebody making accusations, but he won't substantiate them.

Well, that shoe just dropped.

http://www.kktv.com/breakingnews/4557411.html

After Pastor Ted Haggard went public Wednesday night denying allegations of a homosexual affair, senior church officials told KKTV 11News Thursday evening, Pastor Ted Haggard has admitted to some of the claims made by a former male escort. The church's Acting Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley, tells KKTV 11 News that Pastor Haggard has admitted to some of the indiscretions claimed by Mike Jones, but not all of them.

[aghast]

there are reports that he has "admitted to some guilt but not all the allegations" but there is no detail, and he just resigned - not looking good - again its not about being gay but about the hypcricy, if at least some of the allegations are true, then hes one of the biggest hypocrites in the world- damaging? you bet -but then you have to wonder why now right before the election and not four monhts ago

[TheGaffer]

you bet -but then you have to wonder why now right before the election and not four monhts ago

Unfortunately this can be said about every single story that comes out in October before every election. It can't be avoided. Stuff happens. Sometimes it happens in October.

[billythrilly7th]

or what it's worth....

A former male prostitute who accused Colorado Springs pastor Ted Haggard of engaging in gay sex over the course of three years failed a polygraph test administered Friday morning in Denver.

The polygrapher, John Kresnik, said the results “indicated deception� but he also believed the results may have been skewed because the accuser, Mike Jones, was suffering from a migraine and didn’t get much sleep.

“I’m disappointed with myself,� Jones said on Peter Boyles’ morning talk show on KHOW radio after taking the 90-minute polygraph. “I feel like I’ve disappointed a lot of people. I initiated it and I’m willing to accept the consequences of it.

Not every accused is necessarily guilty although most of them are...:)

Regardless, I think we all learned a good lesson here and I, for one, will be a better man because of the Ted Haggard incident and rush to judgement.

Thank you.

[aghast]

polygraph tests are not often accurate and its weird that the guy would suggest a test if he knows hes lying - i think we need some time to determine who is lying

[billythrilly7th]

And if he had passed, you'd have a problem with those results too, right??

And let me make this clear, I can't stand these robbin, thievin, hypocritical fear mongers, (as Bono said, "'My god ain't short of cash, Mister) but I also can't stand innocent people and people who have been "accused" of something not even given a fair shot.

In this country it's automatic guilt. From the Duke Lacrosse players to this hump.

"YET ANOTHER ONE!!!!!"

That's it!!! Guilty!!!!

He was ACCUSED of something by god knows who.

Guilty!!!!

Sad state of affairs.

[aghast]

i am not disagreeing with you but i am not going to say haggard is guilty or jones is lying but you seem to say oh jones didnt pass the test so he must be lying which i just say 'not necessarily so' - now haggard admitted to buying meth (but threw it away) and getting a 'massage' but no sex you kind of have to wonder - it just doesnt make sense to get a 'massage' for a gay prostitute and buy meth but throw it away - again i am not saying hes lying and thats why i am saying give it time and the truth may come out but so far the meth thing checks out (whether he did throw it out or not) so you have to wonder what else is there - it so easy to say 'i didnt inhale' and 'i just let the guy touch me for a massage' - but like i said it doesnt make sense of a guy like him to buy meth but doesnt take and hire a male prostitute for a massage only - but i am not going to say hes lying until we know for sure and i wonder if we will ever know for sure... and i do hope that you dont jump to conclusion and say haggard is innocent either, but yeah innocent until proven guilty but i am not betting on it, thats all

i think we need some time to determine who is lying

[billythrilly7th]

but you seem to say oh jones didnt pass the test so he must be lying

The serious part of that post was "For what it's worth..."

Everything that followed was the not necessarily serious part.

"For what it's worth" means...."here's an update for ya, :Shrug: "

Hopefully after a little more time spent here, you'll get a feel for what being Thrilly is all about.
:)

[billythrilly7th]

All I want is fairness and lack of hypocrisy.

If the Haggart dude took the lie detector test and failed...

"He failed!! That's it!!! Guilty!!!"

But he doesn't even need to take it for that as I mentioned.

All across America...

"This person did this!!"

Thread: Here we go again!!!

Post: Another truck driver buys apples from an illegal alien! Here's the link....Guilty!!

It's sad.

And more often than not, the hypocrisy of the human animal comes out in these situations.

If it's YOUR guy...it's a defending.

If it's the other guy...it's a bashing.

No due process.

No nothing.

Sad.

Thank you and good night.

[blacbird]

From NBC tonight:

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The Rev. Ted Haggard admitted Friday he bought methamphetamine and received a massage from a gay prostitute who claims he was paid for drug-fueled trysts by the former head of the National Association of Evangelicals.

Mike Jones, the 49-year-old Denver man who raised the allegations this week, quickly refuted Haggard’s denial.

Shortly after Haggard told reporters outside his home, "I bought it for myself but never used it. I was tempted, but I never used it,” Jones told MSNBC-TV’s Rita Cosby that Haggard snorted meth in front of him about once a month for two years.


caw

[billythrilly7th]

For the record, I'd bet my beer money that the prostitute meth dealer(his parents must be proud) is telling the truth.

But that doesn't change the fact that we live in a "pile on, he's guilty, regardless of truth, jump to conclusions based on our biases" society.

And that's a shame.
:(

[SC Harrison]

For the record, I'd bet my beer money that the prostitute meth dealer(his parents must be proud) is telling the truth.

But that doesn't change the fact that we live in a "pile on, he's guilty, regardless of truth, jump to conclusions based on our biases" society.

And that's a shame.
:(

Yeah, but who has the time or desire to wait for a year-and-a-half for the case to be finally adjudicated before "concluding"? I need it now, man! Snap, pop, and it's on to new business.

[robeiae]

For the record, I'd bet my beer money that the prostitute meth dealer(his parents must be proud) is telling the truth.
Maybe he's also a licensed massage therapist...

[SeanDSchaffer]

He did resign, though, didn't he?



In some Christian circles though, that only means that the church he worked for could have pushed for his resignation. Sort of an added insult to the 'Pile-on' mentality that Thrilly has been talking about.

Like Thrilly, I think this is a very sad state of affairs. In the United States, the rule "Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't seem to hold much weight any more.

[aghast]

innocent until proven guilty does not apply to the rich and famous and powerful, and its a shame but thats how it is in our societies - oj simpson, guilty, robert blake, guilty, paris hilton, guilty, mel gibson, guilty, michael jackson, guilty, mike tyson, guilty, the enron guys, guilty, foley, guilty, tom delay, guilty, the clintons, guilty - so will we say the same abou cheney and gwb say about illegal war related activities - ha, right - can we be fair? there is certainly partison politics here - the same people who dogpiled on hilary clinton over whitewater are probably those who are saying oh come on, we shouldnt judge haggard, the gay escort must be lying...

[blacbird]

But that doesn't change the fact that we live in a "pile on, he's guilty, regardless of truth, jump to conclusions based on our biases" society.


Maybe. But there's a long history of thick smoke associated with this particular sort of fire, and this one sure doesn't look any different.

And you yourself would never make such a jump in regard to, say, John Kerry or Hilary Clinton, would you, Thrills?

caw

[TheGaffer]

Billy, you're certainly correct about what you're saying.

I think people are jumping on the hypocrisy more than anything else - a gay-basher now accused of a gay tryst. And then his non-denial denial (I bought meth but didn't use it, I got massages but not sex) is just fantastical.

But yes. This has become a "OFF WITH HIS HEAD" kind of culture, just as political elections have become "HORSE RACE CENTRAL" kind of culture, too. And everything's become overpoliticized to the "if he's my guy I'm defending him" and vice-versa, which makes me pretty sickened. And we saw it with BIll Clinton, just as we see it with this guy, and many others.

[blacbird]

innocent until proven guilty does not apply to the rich and famous and powerful, and its a shame but thats how it is in our societies - oj simpson, guilty, robert blake, guilty, paris hilton, guilty, mel gibson, guilty, michael jackson, guilty, mike tyson, guilty, the enron guys, guilty, foley, guilty, tom delay, guilty, the clintons, guilty - so will we say the same abou cheney and gwb say about illegal war related activities - ha, right - can we be fair? there is certainly partison politics here - the same people who dogpiled on hilary clinton over whitewater are probably those who are saying oh come on, we shouldnt judge haggard, the gay escort must be lying...

Another point to be made here is that, for the most part so far, this isn't a legal issue (though the meth thing might get to that). It's a matter of his association with a private entity (his church and evangelical organization), the laser-beam hypocrisy of his behavior (even the portions he has so far admitted to), and public opinion of those things, which doesn't require unanimity of a jury.

So, I reiterate my original question: Why do people keep making these guys filthy rich?

caw

[billythrilly7th]

And you yourself would never make such a jump in regard to, say, John Kerry or Hilary Clinton, would you, Thrills?


Not John Kerry. Although a hump, a decent man. I'd give him the benefit oif the doubt in a scandal situation. The other has a scandal sheet a mile long.
So, not so much....

Obama: No jump.
Reid: Yes jump.

First time offenders get much more slack. But I still don't immediatly thing "guilty!!" I wait to see the evidence flow in before my ultimate verdict.

Thank you.

[billythrilly7th]

So, I reiterate my original question: Why do people keep making these guys filthy rich?


I already answered it.

Why must you ask it again?

Thank you.

[clintl]

It's looking a lot better for the escort's story than for Haggard's at this point.

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=ac2e5ae3-0abe-421a-002e-f8d72bfbc01f&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

[billythrilly7th]

I don't think anyone doubted that it was Haggards voice. This adds nothing to the story. He already admitted he bought meth and taht's what the messages were about.

August 4, 2006 2:18 pm
“Hi Mike, this is Art. Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply. And I could pick it up really anytime I could get it tomorrow or we could wait till next week sometime and so I also wanted to get your address. I could send you some money for inventory but that’s probably not working, so if you have it then go ahead and get what you can and I may buzz up there later today, but I doubt your schedule would allow that unless you have some in the house. Okay, I’ll check in with you later. Thanks a lot, bye.�

August 4, 2006 5:10 pm
“Hi Mike this is Art, I am here in Denver and sorry that I missed you. But as I said, if you want to go ahead and get the stuff, then that would be great. And I’ll get it sometime next week or the week after or whenever. I will call, though, you early next week to uh, see what’s most convenient for you. Okay? Thanks a lot. Bye.�

There's no "Can't wait to see you, stud" or "I'm so horny for you" quotes. Purely drug related. Now, since Mike Jones failed the lie detector test, he better come up with some other evidence about the gay affair or Haggart comes away okay in the end of this.

"Congregation, I have sinned. But I also have been sinned against. Although, I did buy drugs in a moment of weakness, I have also been the victim of falsehoods. Mike Jones, who failed a lie detector test, accused me of having a gay relationship with him. That is not true. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Although, according to the Bible there is. But, that's for another sermon."

If you make allegations you better have evidence. And in the absense of evidence and the failed lie detector test all we are left with is, like I said a few posts up..."I'd bet my beer money the Mike Jones is telling the truth..."

Luckily, in this country, people aren't convicted because of what people feel in their hearts.

Thank you.

[poetinahat]

Yeah, 'cos if it was all bogus he would still have quit.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
He did resign, though, didn't he?
And just how does a resignation constitute guilt? It doesn't.

All one could say about it is that it was a decision made for expediency's sake. Could've been to protect his family from the ordeal, protect his church -- whatever. Whether the accusations were true or not, the storm they created would've been tough to endure.

If he's admitted something since then, it has nothing to do with whether his resignation was an admission of guilt.

[blacbird]

Well, there's guilt and then there's guilt. Depends on how you define it. Me, I could care less what a person's sexual preferences and practices are, as long as they are consensual and not coerced or forced. But Ted Haggard led a church and evangelical association which denounces homosexuality in the strongest terms. So it's the hypocrisy that is currently biting him hard in the backside, and anybody can make whatever judgment they want about that.

caw.

[billythrilly7th]

But Ted Haggard led a church and evangelical association which denounces homosexuality in the strongest terms. So it's the hypocrisy that is currently biting him hard in the backside, and anybody can make whatever judgment they want about that.


I agree with you IF he engaged in man sex.

But at this point other than, and I'm with you 'cause I think it too, we have no evidence other than "I'm with ya, I know he did."

Billy's Brain and Heart: I know he did. Come on. Of course he was.

BUT...Prostitute drug dealers WHO FAILED A LIE DETECTOR test don't have the crediblity they had back in the 50's.

So....I have to just say....Haggard...uh....whatever.

[aghast]

haggard already admited to meth but he said he threw it away but honstly the voicemail messages are not conclusive, they could be about anything, like a broadway ticket or pair of socks but since haggard already admited to meth its probably about meth but yeah theres no prove of the sexual business relationship so jones will have to provide more proofs or it will just be he said, he said - still the meth thing alone is going to be tough to dispel and no one is going to believe that he bought the stuff but didnt use it - meth is very addictive - so we know hes lying at least for certain part of the story - i predict that haggard will go to rehab - seems like the thing to do now and once you are done you are a new man - and everything else will blow over because jones cant prove anything about the gay sex thing - either way its still high hyprocacy and its not good to the church

[billythrilly7th]

"I threw it away."

:ROFL:

This guy is the Bill Clinton of disgraced evangelicals.

"I didn't inhale."

"I didn't have sex with that woman."


"I threw it away."

What a liar.

Unless, he did throw it away. I have no evidence at this point, but this is in my jurisdiction and I'm looking into it.

Goodnight AW!!

:D

[aghast]

it looks like the church decides to believe mike jones after all - http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html - the investigation board has determined that he did conduct sexual misbehavior - thats really bad, not that consensual gay sex is bad (but of courswe the church would say it is) but his hypocritical stance , working with the white house to 'gay bash' as bill maher said - the lies haggard is telling make him look horrible, first 'i dont know haggard' and then 'i only got a massage' and 'i bought meth but didnt take it' - wow, hes worst than clinton and at least clinton wasnt hypocritical enough to persecute adulterers - selfhating gay men who help discriminate gay people are the worst - another news - doogie howser is gay and happy - good for you doogie

[blacbird]

On the issue of "guilt", from the governing Board of Ted Haggard's church, just released tonight.

“Our investigation and Pastor Haggard’s public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct,” the independent board said in a statement.

caw.

[TheGaffer]

This guy is the Bill Clinton of disgraced evangelicals.

EXACTLY! That's my point!

"I didn't have gay sex. But I did get a massage from him."

"I bought the meth. But I threw it away."

WHAT?

If you've never done drugs, you've never done it. If you've smoked pot, you've smoked pot. Don't gimme these half-measures. Good grief.

[ColoradoGuy]

This link (http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326174)to Haggard’s local paper is interesting because it is impossible to overestimate the influence of Haggard and New Life Church in Colorado Springs. I spent several years in the region as the president of the Southern Colorado AIDS Project, a non-profit AIDS service organization, and I can tell you the reach of him and his people is immense. I got hate mail from these folks and their friends for “pushing the gay life style.” (i.e., doing HIV education programs.)

Anyway, this is a quotation from one of Haggard’s own books, written to his children:

“Everything in your life is public. There are no secrets. Everything you say, everything you do, every place you go, every thought you think is going to be known by all. So if you want to do something that you’ll have to keep secret, don’t do it.

“Don’t believe the lie that you can ever say something, do something, go somewhere or think things that others won’t know about. People who believe in secrets are people who ultimately fail.”

[dclary]

When will decent committed religious Christians stop listening to these guys, and sending them the rent money?:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15536263/

caw

BTW: as a decent committed religious Christian, I've never sent any group money. If you're on TV, you're doing ok without me.

[aghast]

good christiand dont need evangelicals - its the truly helpless who need that and these people like jim baker, jerry falwell and now haggard and even after all these things they are still pouring millions of dollars to these 'churches' - people are insane