The Ellipse and Dash Addict Club

[AnneMarble]

Hello, my name is Anne, and I may be using too many ellipses and dashes in my dialogue.

When are ellipses in dialogue OK? When are they overused? Are there any guidelines about how often is too much?

I usually use ellipses if someone says something but doesn't finish the sentence. For example, "Could it be?..." or "But..." (One of English teachers told me I should use dashes for that instead, but I thought dashes were used only for interrupted dialogue.)

However, sometimes I'll use it in the middle of a sentence, to indicate strong emotion. And while looking at a line of dialogue today, I realized it can be very easy to abuse ellipses. For example, this line made me laugh:
"Too much bleeding. The ... dagger... cut into his liver."

It's supposed to show his emotion, but when I read it again, I thought it made him look not very bright. Like he had to to look at the weapon and think before remembering what it was called.
:ROFL:

Or am I reading too much into those ellipses? :)

And what are the guidelines about breaking dialogue at the end of a line with dashes? I've heard some writers point out that you shouldn't do that too often because people generally don't interrupt each other as often as happens on newbie writers' pages. That's probably true in most settings, so I try not to abuse it. But how do I know what's appropriate and what's dash abuse?

[moth]

Hi Anne. :hi:
Hi, my name is moth, and I am a dash-addict.

I don't know any rules for dashes or ellipses, but boy oh boy do I overuse dashes. (ETA: I would love to know the rules for them. Though I probably should already...*sheepish*)

I tend to shy away from ellipses for some reason. I find myself saving them for when a character is hysterically crying or shellshocked or something else extreme.

"Too much bleeding. The ... dagger... cut into his liver."
Sorry, but all I got from this was Captain Kirk! :tongue

The only way I can get my dashes reined in is to write them all I want in the first draft and then revise, revise, revise. I find that I usually only really need a small percentage of them anyway. Like anything else it's more effective the less often you use it, and I try to keep that in mind when I revise. But in a first draft, it's usually a dashfest. :tongue

[Stacia Kane]

I'm a dash addict as well. Ellipses, yes, I might use them too much, but I'm always dashing--or rather, my characters are, in their thoughts. :)

I haven't gone through my current WIP yet to find and excise as many as possible, though, and I, like AnnMarble, wonder how many is too many?

[CaroGirl]

I completely agree with moth. Write it and take them out later. If you're aware of it, you might be able to break yourself of the habit over time. Until then, save removing them for the editing/revision phase.

Personally, I don't like ellipses or dashes, and prefer them to be used v. sparingly. You should be able to convey the same effect if you've set the scene properly (context), and also through correct word choice.

Good luck, hard habit to break, I think.

[Bufty]

I'm guilty, too.

I think the key to dashes and asterisks is to ask oneself if they really mean anything. When trying to read mine aloud, ninety-nine times out of a hundred they sounded dumb. On reflection, writing them in was simply me gasping as mistakenly 'realistic' dialogue flowed from my fingertips, when I should have been paying more attention to the words and sentences.

After all, put an ellipse or dash in the wrong place, or use it too often and it not only becomes meaningless, the reader has to guess what it means.

Just my two-penneth.

[Amiton]

I can't say for certain what the precise grammar rules are for the ellipsis and the dash are; I just know how I use them. In general, though, I think the common sense rule for overusing anything is that if you're asking the question then you probably are. I'd definitely say the ellipses are out of place on the example you gave are over the top, but you knew that!

Anyway, in as much as dialogue, I would use the ellipsis for a comment that trails off and a dash for a sudden stop. e.g. "Bill, you're a great guy, but... I don't know." v. "I'm going to go to the -" Jill would have said "store," except that right at that moment the gas main exploded. Or some such. I also can't think of any scenario where I would use an ellipsis after terminating punctuation (period, question mark, exclamation point). Honestly, I can't think of a situation where I'd use it after any punctuation, but I'm less firm about that.

Amiton.

[PeeDee]

"There's some....THING! Out...there! On the....wing of the plane!"

Remember: when you're done, read your novel out loud. If nothing else, read your dialogue out loud. If, at any point, you would be embarassed to read that line out loud to people you don't know, then change it.

[Siddow]

Hi...I think I belong in this club.
Not that I overuse them in my writing--no, no, that has never been a problem--but in my personal correspondence (I do write letters the old-fashioned way), I find myself oddly affectionate of using parenthetical phrases.

I have no advice, only cookies...

[PeeDee]

When people used to send me letters....they would always just break all their sentences up like this....which drove me nuts, because there are several keys on your keyboard....and they're designed specifically to keep you from doing this......in case this isn't clear, they're the TAB key and the ENTER key......clever use of which can give you paragraphs which are easier to read......than this eyesore is turning out to be.......and even worse.....people send me emails like this every now and then......and they go on and on for pages full of asinine details......(most of which I wouldnt' care about reading, paragraphs or otherwise).....and with so many dots filling up the page.....it's small wonder that I give up after a sentence....maybe two.......I mean, we have all these wonderful forms of punctuation out there.....could we maybe give them jobs......the comma has a family to feed.....so does TAB and ENTER......help them feed their little children, young Semi-Colon and Ellipses.

[mjlpsu]

I'm an em-dash addict. But that's just because I like the em-dash much more than the semicolon.
I really don't like the ellipises though. They're useful for academic and journalistic writing, but I find these a little annoying in literature. They work OK in stage and screen plays too.

[Scarlett_156]

My name is Kristi, and I'm an addict. I've been straight for, oh, about 16 days, 5 hours, 23 minutes, and...

Oh wait... you're talking about punctuation here. Never mind! :)

[IrishScribbler]

I use dashes and ellipses, as well, but I try to use them sparingly. In my WIP my protagonist struggles with mental illness, so I use them frequently when she's not lucid to show her fragmented thought processes. I think it works well (but we'll see what the agents/publishers think).

[Southern_girl29]

I use ellipses in my dialogue to point a pause, but I know I use too many. When I do my edit and rewrite, I'll take some of them out then.

[Amiton]

My name is Kristi, and I'm an addict. I've been straight for, oh, about 16 days, 5 hours, 23 minutes, and...

Oh wait... you're talking about punctuation here. Never mind! :)

:Thumbs: :banana: :idea:

Erm. What were you talking about? I think I could stand to hear a little more... :tongue

Amiton.

[Carrie in PA]

Hi... Anne! I'm Carrie... and I'm an ellipsis addict!
I use them... a lot. I like them... a lot.

I do... try... to edit them out later...

:D

[FloVoyager]

*raises hand* I... also... overuse certain punctuation marks, but I like them -- at least, in the first draft.

I get rid of most of them in the second draft. :D

[Serenity]

My God!!!!! Thank you-- all of you, really...

I thought I was alone in this world... I see now that I am not-- nor do I have to be-- ashamed of it anymore!

My name is Melissa... and I am an ellipseholic-- and dash-- addict...

eta: this probably drives my co-writer Chaos as insane as my use of *'s... she's threatened me with bodily harm if I continue to use them-- the *'s-- in our next endeavor!

... --- ... Oh wait... S.O.S. so maybe the over use of ellipses and dashes ARE a cry for help! :P

[PeeDee]

My name...is Pete.....and I sometimes lock myself in the bedroom and wear stretchy pants.

*stunned silence*

*looks at which room he's come into*

Er. Just kidding. Wrong room. Bye.

[Serenity]

WAIT... I want to see the stretchy pants again!!

[Carrie in PA]

WAIT... I want to see the stretchy pants again!!

*Psssssst! No, you don't. They're... (looks around to make sure PeeDee isn't reading) leopard print!!!!!*

[Amiton]

*Psssssst! No, you don't. They're... (looks around to make sure PeeDee isn't reading) leopard print!!!!!*

Ewwww. So much for wanting to eat lunch in a little bit.

Amiton.

[PeeDee]

comes into the room

*squeak squeak squeak*

stops walking.

Well. *I* am hungry, at any rate. I'm going to run into the kitchen and get something to eat.

starts running.

*squeaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueak*

[Carrie in PA]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[sammyig]

I am an ellipses addict. I think it comes from writing plays and how I was taught to do so. In my prose, I always find myself having to go back and readjust my sentences so that there are only few evidences of ellipses.

[(grasshopper)]

For those of you who feel uneasy about not knowing the rules governing the use of points of ellipses, check the Chicago Manual of Style.

For those of you who are not uneasy about this problem, Good luck.

First, before going into the actual rules of use, I'd like to clear up a huge, gaping error committed by many writers unfamiliar with points of ellipses.

Of course this does not apply if you are casually playing with ellipses to spice up email or postings and such. There are no rules for that, so three dots in a row (or any number of dots, for that matter) like this … (with no space in between the dots) works fine.

But beware!

According to the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition, section 10.48, ellipsis “are usually separated from each other and from the text and any contiguous punctuation by 3-to-em spaces.”

A “3-to-em” space is 1/3 of an “em” space.

An em is a unit of linear measurement equal to the point size of the type. For example, if you are using 12-point type, an em would be 12 points long, or the same length as a character (in non-proportional type).

Admittedly, this rule is for typesetters and is a bit technical for the average novelist, but it brings up a point often neglected by many average writers, to wit:

In serious writing, points of ellipsis need some kind of space between them.

The rule of thumb for those using typewriters or word processors is to use one tap of the spacebar between the dots (and any text or contiguous punctuation).

Even the people at Microsoft are aware of this. Word automatically puts in the notorious 3-to-em spaces between the dots. Have you noticed that when you type three dots without spaces in between, they suddenly change and separate from each other a little? Well, botta-bing! Word just put 3-to-em spaces between them.

Here are some usage examples:

Correct: And then she smiled . . .
Incorrect: And then she smiled. . .
Incorrect: And then she smiled...
Incorrect: And then she smiled ...

Correct: And then she smiled. . . .

Note that this last example demonstrates the use of a period at the end of the sentence which is then followed by three ellipsis points. This does not break any punctuation rules. The period follows the standard rules of punctuation, thus there is no space between it and the last character of the sentence. The points of ellipsis are separate and distinct from the stop mark (period) at the end of the sentence.

So what you see is four dots, BUT! In reality there are TWO separate and distinct punctuation marks there.

And by the same token, the following examples are allowed and correct:

And then she smiled . . . !
And then she smiled . . . ?
And then she smiled? . . .
And then she smiled! . . .

I could go on with lots of examples, but I suspect that I may have lost all but the most dedicated to the craft of proper writing . . . <sigh> . . .
There's more if you want to see it.

[Serenity]

:Wha: I think my head just exploded . . .

:wag: Teasing. I will be the first to admit that grammar was my worst subject in school. (Horrible thing for a writer to admit, I'm sure.) But, it's also something that can always be learned, thank God!

[DeborahM]

I too am an ellipseholic...hangs head...but smiles. :Shrug:

[LeeFlower]

I --as someone may have noticed from my posts here-- am a dash addict.

I can't leave them alone.

Drafting, I just don't worry about it. As I'm going back and editing, I'm trying to end comma/dash apartied by inviting them back to the party.

[PeeDee]

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h188/ginm78/thNachoLibre.jpg

[Serenity]

Pete... that's just... wrong.

[PeeDee]

But they feel so right.

*squeaksqueak*

[J. Weiland]

Mmm...ellipses.

[PeeDee]

Mmm...ellipses.

That's me bum yer talkin' 'bout.

[BardSkye]

comes into the room

*squeak squeak squeak*

stops walking.

Well. *I* am hungry, at any rate. I'm going to run into the kitchen and get something to eat.

starts running.

*squeaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueak*

Be sure you don't do this while wearing cordeuroy (sp?) pants. My boss did once.

*squeakswishsqueakswishsqueakswish*

His pants burst into flames from the friction. It was terrible.

[PeeDee]

I agree. I HATE it when my boss has flaming pants.

[Serena Casey]

Ahh...this...is...the...room...I...was...looking.. .for...

(Ahem. Not because of the stretchy pants.)

[UrsulaV]

I gotta admit--I'm an addict.

But what can you do...? They're just so...so...

Err...

Thingy.

[Tracy]

Pee Dee - I've just one thing to say to you: Too. Much. Information.

And to the others: please, I beg you, stop encouraging him.

[Rashenbo]

Hello... I am an ELLIPSE addicit. I just love to use those little guys. I'm really bad about using them in emails and forum posts. I'm not sure why I just can't stop myself from using them... I notice when I'm writing my novel that I also want to use them. I think I've gotten a lot better about catching myself while I'm working on that though...

:)

Do I get an ellipse badge? Yay... Yay...

[Shadow_Ferret]

I don't use either much. Not excessively. On occassion, I'll use the elipses to show that someone was interupted in their speech by someone else.

"I was going to say, the only time one uses elipses ..."

"Is when the other person interupts them?"

Let's out a sigh. "Yes."

And as far as M dashes, I never really figured out what they were for. Are they just fancier (parentheticals?) -- or what?

[DeborahM]

The M dash "–" is just a longer dash, which I hear agents are prefering these days over the regular dash.

[Amiton]

Hello... I am an ELLIPSE addicit.

Okay, I usually try to keep my hole shut, especially regarding grammar in a writing forum, but since you capitalized it, it's killing me. It makes me feel like you're correcting people, but in the wrong direction
:flag:


An ellipse is a geometrical shape with two (or more) points of focus - the rectangle of the circle family. An ellipsis is the three dot thingy, and ellipses is the plural of the three dot thingy.

Sorry, but it was really gnawing at me. I didn't mean to be a jerk.

Amiton.

[Shadow_Ferret]

The M dash "–" is just a longer dash, which I hear agents are prefering these days over the regular dash.

The M dash is the width of an M. Usually we type it as two hyphens "--."

— M dash
– N dash
- hyphen

[DeborahM]

The M dash is the width of an M. Usually we type it as two hyphens "--."

— M dash
– N dash
- hyphen

AND? You're point being?

My point was regarding the agents.

[inanna]

This stuff is like crack to me. Thanks for the tips, everyone.

[Shadow_Ferret]

AND? You're point being?

My point was regarding the agents.

Guess I missed your point and I just like showing off my typsetting skills. :)

[J. Weiland]

the end...-

[DeborahM]

Guess I missed your point and I just like showing off my typsetting skills. :)

You're just too good!

I heard from an editor not too long ago they and the agents are really tired of the old ... and - and are excited to see the M dash when used.

[veinglory]

Is there room in this group for the punctuation mark that dare not speak its name



(;)

[Patricia]

So . . . guilty, and I love ems too.

[NTG]

Sorry, but all I got from this was Captain Kirk! :tongue

"There's some....THING! Out...there! On the....wing of the plane!"

PeeDee, did you quote that line knowing that it was spoken by William Shatner in a Twilight Zone episode?

Nathanael

[ORION]

My name is Orion and I am not only an ellipses and emdash addict I am an italics addict too...Help me...
The good news is I take them out on my edits and save them for my NEXT first draft mya ha ha...

[Siddow]

ALL HAIL THE SEMICOLON!

ahem...moving on.

[Saundra Julian]

Lordy, I hate semicolons! However, all the others spoken of on this post are my friends... :)
With the exception of PeeDee's pants...now, that was just gross!

[moth]

PeeDee, did you quote that line knowing that it was spoken by William Shatner in a Twilight Zone episode?

Nathanael
I knew that -- pre-Trek, I think, wasn't it? -- and actually I almost quoted that part of PeeDee's post and said something but at the last second I didn't...:tongue

(Gack, I just realized I used dashes and an ellipsis :rolleyes: )

[Shadow_Ferret]

Is there room in this group for the punctuation mark that dare not speak its name



( ; )
Wait, we're not supposed to use ";" now? Crom! I just edited out most of my "but"s and changed the sentences to ";". That's because I have a big old but problem.

[Saundra Julian]

I have a butt problem BUT it's from sitting at my computer for hours on end! ;)

[NeuroFizz]

Punctuation, including ellipses and em-dashes are tools. They are useful when dialogue tails off (ellipses) or is interrupted (em-dashes). Like any other tool, when overused they (1) lose their effectiveness, and (2) become noticeable to the reader, taking the reader out of the flow of the prose. If you can't say what you want to say with words, use punctuation tools. If you have too many punctuation tools in your writing, think of what that means based on the previous sentence.

[aghast]

there are many unnecessary biases against -- ... ; : ! () and gosh, even commas simply because people overuse or misuse them, there is nothing wrong with them, they are there to be used 'properly' but when people are writing things like 'i think... i will just ... scream' for the wrong purpose then you are defeating the language and trying to make something out of something else and when people say 'i dont get it, why does he talk like william shatner' you understand you've failed to communicate - like i dont mind an occasional ! but if you keep using it, and inappropriately or add extra ones like 'get out!!!!!!!?!?!' then i really do question do you even know how to write - obviously i am talking about ms and not messageboard posts ;)

[Amiton]

...and gosh, even commas simply because people overuse or misuse them, there is nothing wrong with them, ...

ACK! Commas are da debil! I don't know why, but I've always had the worst phobia over commas. I'm not even talking about debates whether you should use a comma before the 'and' at the end of a list. I don't think I overuse them, or at least not too much in a technical sense, but every time I use one I cringe inside. Comma splices, improper usage, artificial pauses, argh! Uck, phooey!

Amiton, victim of the comma.

[Carmy]

I'm an addict, too, but I'm trying very hard to use them only when dialogue or thoughts trail off or is interrupted.

This ain't easy, folks.

[Oddsocks]

I use dashes too much. Mostly when some other punctuation mark would probably be better (or maybe just beginning a new sentence).

I don't have this problem with ellipses, though - I don't like them much.