World Building

[ChunkyC]

I'm just getting into creating a human recently - settled planet for my current novel and the next two, and thought a discussion of world-building would be interesting and educational.

I tend to think of two kinds of worlds: human - occupied (Earth and planets settled by humans) and alien - occupied (home worlds of alien species and alien settled planets).

I have been slowly collecting bits as I write and putting them into two main documents: a history file and a glossary of flora and fauna, place names, etc. Recently I've added a third document for character names, with given names and surnames, so that I can track family lines across the three novels, which will cover a thousand years of this world's history.

How 'bout y'all? How do you go about building up your world or worlds?

[Yeshanu]

I typed "World Builder" into google and hit the jackpot:

hiddenway.tripod.com/world/ (http://hiddenway.tripod.com/world/)

I'm gonna save that link! :jump

When I first started writing my fantasy novel, I was a D&D player, and I wrote a novel that reflected it. Draft #2 requires a lot of rewriting because the world wasn't really fleshed out to begin with.

So:

Step number one: Draw the map. This is harder than it seems, because if you want the world to conform to any known laws of climate and geography, you've got to be careful where you put mountains, deserts, etc. I think it's probably more important in science fiction than fantasy, because a fantasy author can always claim that a magical universe works differently...

Number two (for fantasy authors): Laws of magic -- How does it work, and how much does it permeate the world? I hate D&D type worlds where every second mage can cast a light spell on a rock, but where taverns are still lit by smoky lanterns.

My big beef: Religion. A fantasy world where the gods routinely appear to humans/elves/dwarves/whatevers in corporeal form is not going to have a lot of atheists in it, and the religion of the masses would be a lot more evident than it is in NA society today. And for all of you science fiction authors out there: Do you really believe that religion (which has existed scince the beginning of human history) is going to disappear in the next two hundred years? If not, then why aren't there any priests/ministers/rabbis/imans on board your starships?

My other big beef: Societies. You'd think that the only societies an author could use to base a fantasy society on were modern NA or medievel Europe. Natch!

And modelling an elvish society after a known human society is even dumber. One of the questions I ask myself: How would a thousand-year-plus lifespan for our species change our society? Lots and lots and lots of answers here...

History of a world with long-lived or immortal creatures in it becomes a bit of a problem. Humans have only been writing for a few thousand years, but to elves, that's only a few generations (unless you're Elrond, in which case it's current history). You then have to go back tens of thousands of years. I go to the Royal Ontario Museum occasionally -- I need to check out the history of Ontario with regards to ice ages in order to grasp exactly how much history I need to outline here... :ack

Good news though: I read a book by David Eddings that said the second and subsequent worlds are easier. If you want to check out the book, BTW, The Rivan Codex (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345435869/qid=1093125615/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-1150427-1531944) is a helpful resource for fantasy writers.

[DaveKuzminski]

If you're creating an alien world, you might keep this in mind. Man is not the biggest, fastest, or strongest creature on the Earth. Nor is man the smallest, slowest, or weakest creature. It is very likely that man became dominant because he had to in order to survive. Had man been bigger, faster, or stronger, there would have been no need to fashion tools and weapons. Had man been smaller, slower, or weaker, man might not have lasted long enough to use his intelligence. There is no reason to believe that an alien lifeform wouldn't fall into a similar categorization on his home world. He wouldn't have a reason to develop tools if he was the biggest, fastest, or strongest. So on and so on for the other categorization I mentioned.

Therefore, an alien would have just as much reason to be cautious and fearful of others he might encounter in space or on his home world or ours as we would.

[HollyB]

Great link, Yesh!

I just read a very technical essay by Poul Anderson that details one way to create a world. You start by deciding how hot/bright your central star is, then choosing the orbit of your planet around the star, then the mass of the planet, its gravity, and so on.

It kind of hurt my head to read it, but I thought it was extremely useful in terms of creating a realistic setting for a whole new world. (For example, if your star is an F7 - hotter and brighter -- and your orbit is further out than Earth from Sol, then your characters would see a small white sun.)

I find world-building so appealing -- talk about total authorial control! Bwaha ha ha ha! Imagination overdrive! Blue trees if I want them (if I can figure out blue chlorphyll, that is)! Lots of BEMs that live in blue trees! Draconian bug-demons that live in the scales of BEMs! Hey, now I'm on a roll...

[ChunkyC]

Great link, Yesh. And funny you should mention religion. In the books I have planned, the rise of a religious order plays a prominent role on this world.

[arainsb123]

In response to the first post, your series sounds somewhat like the Foundation series. Hope you're as successful as Asimov! :grin

[wwwatcher]

Thanks for the site Ruth. (I think I had it saved as a favorite before my harddrive imploded.)

It probably has this World building questionaire listed but just in case:
www.sfwa.org/writing/worldbuilding1.htm (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/worldbuilding1.htm)

Faye

[ChunkyC]

Hi Ara. Thanks for the encouragement. I do hope my series is different, but I wouldn't thumb my nose at a comparison to such a legend as Asimov were such a thing to come my way when the books are done. But first things first: Finish the darn things!

So -- right now I'm working on the second of the four novels and the first one to be set exclusively on this new human-settled world. I'm struggling with the need to make the planet enough like Earth for humans to live there, but also feel the need to make it alien enough to pique the interest of the reader as well. At the moment I'm doing that primarily through the plant and animal life that surround the initial human settlement.

Fun fun fun....

[Yeshanu]

It probably has this World building questionaire listed but just in case:

Thanks, Faye. That list was the one I was actually looking for when I went googling and hit the motherlode. Li'l mac sent it to me, and I found it very useful.

[Pthom]

Chunky:

Niven's Destiny's Road, Legend of Heorot are examples of planets newly inhabited by humans where there is no predominant intelligent life (subjective).

Card's Speaker for the Dead and Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky are examples of planets where humans encounter intelligent life forms (ie: aliens).

Niven's Integral Trees takes place in a 'world' (ie: not a planet) where the predominant life is plants only.

In all these cases, the authors have done extensive research into the possibilities of biology, both the original ecosystems and how they affect the human interlopers. All the above stories are internally consistant, in that any disbelief I may have had at the outset was suspended. (Actually, I had no trouble with believing any of them, except for Card's, and yet he finally brought me around to accepting the possibility of the ecology of the "piggies.")

As for the story I'm working on, I opted for a totally man-made place (a huge space station, if you will), occupied only by humans. I have no aliens or alien ecology as I'm not enough of a biologist to invent such things well enough to make them believable to me. And, of course, if it ain't believable to me, how the hell can I expect you'll believe it?

Nonetheless, I set the thing two millenia in the future, and did have to invent what human society would be like after twenty generations in isolation. To be honest, I'm not sure I've succeeded with that, either, but at least I believe it.

[ChunkyC]

Sounds intriguing, Pthom!

I loved Integral Trees. What a magnificently imagined 'world'.

[Pthom]

I didn't mention (on purpose, mainly because we all know it so well--or should) probably the best imagined world ever: Ringworld

How the hell does Niven do that? and so consistantly?

[Kida Adelyn]

One thing that drives me nuts in some peoples worlds is when magic is as comman as fleas and people still fear it. Or when a large portion of the population is magical, and some people don't have magic, there is never a conflict between magic and non magic peoples because the magic people believe they are the best because of the magic. Always equal status or the other way around. I don't get it.:shrug

[Risseybug]

I am glad you feel that way! I kinda hate that too. In my book, magic is not "prevelant" let's say, but limited. People know it exists, and accept it. But people who live in the city don't see many fairies, who live in the forest, so they may be daunted by them.

And the whole conflict between magic and non magic persons is sort of why my whole world is the way it is. It was once part of our world, but had to separate when non magic people got so afraid of it they wanted to destroy it.

[ChunkyC]

Good points, Kida & Rissey. Even in fantasy where you can make just about any set of rules you want, your world has to have an internal logic.

[Risseybug]

That's it exactly. "fantasy" doesn't mean "illogical" or "nonsensical".

There has to be a reason!

[SouthernDesert]

I've done pretty much what everyone else has, except for conducting an extensive amount of research.

I find information where I can, xerox or download it and set up a file system for land, air and sea animals; land, etc. Then I also add a glossary so that the terminology is consistent from one story to the next (it's amazing how often I trip myself up without referring to the glossary). And yes, I draw maps too.

But, everything aside, remember, it's your world and do what you consider to be right - as long as it sort of makes sense.

Have fun.

[ralucapopov]

Hi,
I'm new to the group and I started with "simple" historical settings in the English 1300. I read Britannica for information, choose the years, and forgot about reality from there on.

Have a map for distances, locations and names,
have a character's list with names, b-days a.s.o.,
have freedom to ignore the rest.

Of course, friends caught me with heroes drinking coffee before its induction into Europe and changed it to ale, potatoes to turnips, but aside from this type of reality, I don't think I have much to do with anything else.

I have written 2 novels with these heroes and I have two more before going on to pure fantasy. But if I need time travel, here it comes! no scientific justification offered.

In the meanwhile I collect bits of info for my fantasy. The world will be populated by insects and human's will be invited for a "visit" (imported food?):rollin

The transport will be by fantastic means and no sci-fi needed. Why give critics a means to cut my novel to pieces? I love the idea of a world in the shape of a discus sitting on the backs of three elephants standing on top a magic turtle floating through space. What's wrong with it?:clap

[ChunkyC]

:thumbs Hear hear for magic turtles, Ral. And welcome to our little corner of the net.

[LiamJackson]

CC, I've got an older, out of print book that has a rather extended section on 'world building.' The section was penned by OS Card. Send me a mailing address via e-mail and I'll send you the book. It may or may not be what you're looking for but you're welcome to have a look at Card's methodology.

LJ

[ChunkyC]

How can I say no to that? You're a saint, Liam. Par-tickle-ars on the way.

[btinternet]

I don't know if it's the book that Liam was sending, but there's a good section on world building in a book called Writing Science Fiction (edited by Gardner Dozois, has the Poul Anderson essay on world-building)

There's also Aliens & Alien Societies (Stan Schmidt) and
World-Building (S. Gillett & Ben Bova)

I think I've got another couple at home - I'll check and post them tonight if I can find them....

BT, owner of entirely too many writing books....

[Writing Again]

While I'm not against reading about world building, almost anything can be fun to read, I take the Ursula K. LeGuin approach to it.

"If there is something I need to know I look in my subconcious and there it is. Like I knew it all along, I just hadn't thought about it yet." (NOTE: this is from memory, not an exact quote.)

[alinasandor]

Can't go wrong with something writen by Orson Scott Card!!!

[Dhewco]

Does anyone else find it hard to have the right amount of description in the beginning of a fantasy, without boring the reader with a bit of info-dumping?

I constantly struggle with this. One time, in a prologue, I had a six or seven paragraph block with nothing but characters entering a room. Big mistake, one I've since corrected. At the time, however, it seemed like a good idea.

[Risseybug]

You'd laugh if you could read the orginal opening to my last book. Heck, I'm laughing about it...:rofl
It was five pages about the main characters personality. Really, five pages. I shake my head when I think about it. Ick.

I also spent almost a whole page describing the inside of a cottage. This, for 9-12 year olds! :rofl

[Yeshanu]

In my first draft, I had a long section describing the elves and where they lived. In the second draft, I took it out. Beta reader's question: "What do these elves look like? Are they Tolkien-type elves, or little short guys?" (Question is not word-for-word, but you get the jist...)

Anyhow, I'm trying to balance. I believe Risseybug overdid it, but there does need to be some description in fantasy. Only problem is, if the pov character needs to be described, she wouldn't necessarily describe herself to a reader's satisfaction, even if she looked in a mirror. (Unless the reader wants to know about the new zit forming on her upturned, button nose...)

So how to do it... :ack

[Pthom]

So how to do it...Does it matter? Does anyone know what Ender looks like? Probably. A better question: does your impression of Ender's appearance match his or hers or mine? I don't recall ever seeing a physical description of Andrew Wiggins, but the lack of it never hampered my enjoyment of the books where he was the main character.

[HConn]

If you have to describe a POV character, you should try to do it the way you'd do any infodump--through conflict.

Put the character in a place where they are surrounded by people dressed way better than they are, or among people who are impossibly crude. Make them ashamed of the way they look, or arrogant about themselves, or whatever. Or have them planning something where looks are important, and they have to check themselves.

If you have this kind of conflict, you have a reason to talk about how they look. However, there's never a reason to have a character comment on their own eyes like limpid pools.

[A Pathetic Writer]

I constantly struggle with this. One time, in a prologue, I had a six or seven paragraph block with nothing but characters entering a room. Big mistake, one I've since corrected. At the time, however, it seemed like a good idea.

Imagine the challenge Peter Jackson had with the chapter "The Council of Elrond" from Lord of the Rings... That's a chapter in which all of the characters sit in a circle and talk about everything that's ever happened in the history of Middle Earth for a full day, and no fewer than three crucial characters, two significant subplots, and the main quest are all introduced.

Tolkien got away with it, because in part, his world had been established in the earlier book (Hobbit), and because he gave us a few chapters to get acquainted with the Hobbits.

But most of the people I know who had never read The Lord of the Rings before seeing the movies, have said "Man, I stopped reading right before it got good."

If Tolkien had a problem with this... Then don't feel too bad if you do to.


Just aspire to be better than he.

:ack

[Kida Adelyn]

*sigh* magnetical attraction to mentions of LOTR

Tolkien had a big problem with that. But when he wrote it, his style was acceptable. :shrug I think when I read it the first time I skipped over half the book. ;)

[macalicious731]

"What do these elves look like? Are they Tolkien-type elves, or little short guys?"

Ruth, that question sounds really familiar. Hehe...:b

[Yeshanu]

No wonder, li'l mac... (You asked it.) :b

Just aspire to be better than he.

<sigh> My problem in a nutshell. :ack

[seeb55]

How about, step one, pretend that you are god of this world. Step two, really let yourself be consumed with a god complex. Like, If I were god,....
Step 3, don't let there be any other gods in this world, be the alpha and the omega.

Some people refer to 'God 'as the 'Creator', I also like to use the 'Writer' as a synonym for god or creator. After all, you are sole creator of your story's universe.

Imagine if this reality we live in was merely a story written by the creator we refer to as god; to be edited, rewritten, and or thrown away at her will?

Just my .02

[DragonHeart]

Bumping so this doesn't get deleted. In my opinion it has some excellent resources. As a side thought, it could probably be merged with the other worldbuilding thread.

[whitehound]

However, there's never a reason to have a character comment on their own eyes like limpid pools.Bloodshot, possibly! When people look at themselves in a mirror it's usually to enumerate their wrinkles, deranged eyebrows, nostril hair etc..

[ChunkyC]

Or if your character is such a narcissist that it would be out of character for him/her to pass up an opportunity to admire themselves in a mirror. :tongue

[Tirjasdyn]

I'd imagine that a narcissist would have a fit at seeing his eyes looking like limpid pools...

[Srresturl]

Does one have to answer all those questions by Patricia in order to write a fantasy novel??

[trebuchet]

In my first draft, I had a long section describing the elves and where they lived. In the second draft, I took it out. Beta reader's question: "What do these elves look like? Are they Tolkien-type elves, or little short guys?" (Question is not word-for-word, but you get the jist...)

So, why do they have to be either? Mine are a race descended from some folks, known as Eleveans, who came from over the sea, and history records them as being invaders. Not that they were. They've got some "magic" left over from that time, but they don't have the long lifespans, great wisdom, etc. People in the present setting call them Elves, and it's a derogatory term.

[sunandshadow]

"Does one have to answer all those questions..."

Nope. The only thing one has to do to write a fantasy novel is sit down and write 80,000 words, hopefully organized into a plot structure and with some sort of magic in there somewhere. But do you want to write just a fantasy novel? Or do you want to write a publishable fantasy novel? Are you aiming for 'extruded fantasy product', 'the next great american fantasy novel', 'a rollicking good adventure which will have them rolling in the aisles', 'a pulse-pounding otherworldly sensation', blah blah blah... There are fantasy novels and there are fantasy novels. What you have to do is whatever it takes to accomplish your goals as a writer, whatever those may be.

[LloydBrown]

You'd laugh if you could read the orginal opening to my last book. Heck, I'm laughing about it...:rofl
It was five pages about the main characters personality. Really, five pages. I shake my head when I think about it. Ick.

I also spent almost a whole page describing the inside of a cottage. This, for 9-12 year olds! :rofl

Is that bad? T.H. White got away with it in The Once and Future King. I was reading that book to my kid and had a hard time with the end of The Sword in the Stone because I kept tearing up. (that rhymes with tier, not tare).

[LloydBrown]

When I first started writing my fantasy novel, I was a D&D player, and I wrote a novel that reflected it. Draft #2 requires a lot of rewriting because the world wasn't really fleshed out to begin with.

Michael Stackpole said that D&D players tend to be great at character development and that Dungeon Masters tend to excel at world building and plotting.

So I've been trying to play more and run less. ;-)

Stackpole's seminars at GenCon, btw, were the best thing EVER. I had about 10 articles at Dragon when I did that seminar, then I came home, wrapped those up and pounded out a 90,000-word ms in 6 weeks.

My plot is strong, and my world is internally consistent, but my character development is weak. Can you tell how I spend my D&D time?

[Srresturl]

My goal is for publishment.