Boring start

[Mike The Mover]

I've got a problem; my movie is boring for the first 23 pages. It's a comedy and it doesn't get funny until around the 23rd page. You can read it in the other forum. I'm thinking maybe I should cut some of the begining scenes...

Will people read the whole script before they make a judgement?

[wordmonkey]

Cut the first 22 pages then.

Seriously.

Is it actually funny at that point or is that were the story really starts?

You don't always need to set up things. In fact it's often a good idea to throw an audience into the middle of a scene/story and let them catch up. It does require better writing to do that as it is easy to just lose the audience or forget to tell them an important thing that you would have covered originally, but very do-able. Pilot episode of LOST is a great example of this. We didn't really see the crash properly until Season Two and then that was the Tailies.

Without reading the script, I would guess you started too soon. However, look back over what you have and look for places to add gags (and I mean any and all kinds of gag, not just funny lines). Can you introduce your protagonist or antagonists in a way that shows what they do AS they do it? James Bond and Indiana Jones movies do this by giving you the end of one story and thus dropping you straight in the middle of the action. Obviously this isn't an action movie, but if you have the funny tail-end of another story, you can start with a hook and if you want (since you are now 22 pages down) run the end of the first story as a subplot through the rest of the real story.

Did that make any sense? A bad example is an early John Cusack movie where throughout the film an ever more demanding group of paperboys are chasing him for their payment. It has nothing to do with the main story but provides funny cut-aways from the rest of the plot and allows for another hurdle to be placed in the path or the hero.

You have on average, 10 pages to hook a script reader, so focus on those pages first.

My over priced two-cents. Do with it what you will. But there is no refund.

[scripter1]

"You have on average, 10 pages to hook a script reader, so focus on those pages first."

Doesn't mean those ten pages shouldn't be interesting, in the case of a comedy really funny.

It just means that you've got about ten pages to really get your story going and have the reader want to know what happens next in THAT story.

The sooner you can do that the better.

Just read the first oh, five lines or so of your script.

Too much common, ordinary stuff.
Monkey is correct, you need to find a strong situation to jump right into and get going right away.
And you need to liven up your dialog with witty exchanges or something.

You may find this really stupid but maybe it makes a point.

When I was a teenager me and my older sister came up with stupid ways to answer the phone.
At the time she was working at the ZOO.
Her name is JANELL and I'm ANN.
If she answered the phone she would say "Tate's Zoo, this is Gazelle speaking. No, the Antelope is not here."

Oh, and then there was "Tate's pool hall, Eight ball speaking."

My favorite we came up with was "Tate's MORTUARY. You stab em, we slab em."


Dead silence always followed that one.


If someone hung up on us and then called back we would switch around.
Amazing how many people didn't even catch the 'Tate' part.


So one way to spice up your opening scene is to make a pun or play on words or something with the name of the cleaning service.

And then you need some type of sight gag or joke to introduce the guys.
What is going on with these guys? Who are they? What about them is funny?
What it is it about your STORY that makes it funny?
Why is it a comedy instead of a drama?
Every story has a bit of humour in it but comedy really loads up on it.
What is it about your story that people will find really funny?

And remembr too, that a lot of comedy is based in tragedy.
(that's not the EXACT statement I know.)
We laugh for two reasons 1) because we're glad it's NOT us and 2) because it HAS been us

One of the most hilarious scenes I've seen recently was from My Super Ex Girlfriend.
The Great White Shark through the window scene.
BRILLIANT!!! HYSTERICAL!!! because it was so absurd, so creative, so ...... out there.
I mean really? WHO thinks of snatching up a great white shark and pitching it into someone's bedroom?!!!!

The rest of the movie was pretty lame but that one scene got the whole theater howling.

So, be creative. And it's okay to be really stupid first. Don't throw out ANY idea until you've twisted it every which way to see if there is one little ounce of gold in it.

[mommyjo2]

Did that make any sense? A bad example is an early John Cusack movie where throughout the film an ever more demanding group of paperboys are chasing him for their payment. It has nothing to do with the main story but provides funny cut-aways from the rest of the plot and allows for another hurdle to be placed in the path or the hero.


That's not a bad example of how to jazz up a comedy script.

Everyone I know remembers that the MOST from that movie - "I want my two dollars!"

[wordmonkey]

Exactly.

"TWO DOLLARS"

I remember almost nothing else about that movie, but I remember "TWO DOLLARS."

And what scripter1 said is what I should have said.

[whistlelock]

remove the first 23 pages. burn them.

being boring at the beginning is a sin. don't commit it.

[Mike The Mover]

You don't always need to set up things. In fact it's often a good idea to throw an audience into the middle of a scene/story and let them catch up. It does require better writing to do that as it is easy to just lose the audience or forget to tell them an important thing that you would have covered originally, but very do-able. Pilot episode of LOST is a great example of this. We didn't really see the crash properly until Season Two and then that was the Tailies.


I was thinking as a way to improve my screenplay I would move one of the really funny scenes and use it as an opening scene. That way the reader would at least know something about this movie is funny. Because there are funny scenes, (I hope) 25 pages into the script.

[whistlelock]

Don't be boring in the middle part. That's not acceptable either.

Go find a comedy with 20 minutes of boring stuff.

[scripter1]

missing the key point Mike.

You can't just take scenes and switch them around.
You're talking about a comedy here. You've got to make the WHOLE thing funny.

Scenes go in certain places and happen at certain times because that is the BEST way to tell the STORY. They advance plot points.

Start with your basic three key points in the story.

Something happens to kick off the story, get people moving.
Something happens that makes it worse.
Something happens that resolves it.

Really, in a script, or any story for that matter you CAN start at any of those points. Maverick (Mel Gibson) starts in the middle of the story, with Mavrick hanging from the tree.
Memento starts with the end and goes backwards.

Within the three main acts you have several story beats per act that move us through each section.
So, what you need to do is plot out ALL of your possible story scenerios and discover which ones convey your story the best. Then you need to brainstorm the funniest way to put that forth.

I've got some articles for you to read about two ways to come at a story.

[Aldenard]

I always remember Punch-Drunk Love when I hear about boring beginings. It starts out slow, with Adam Sandler's character in an office talking on a phone. PTA knew this was a bad was to start a film, so he has a car flip and crash in the road in a magnificent display. This exists soley to wake the audience up and make them pay attention, with no real relevance to the actual plot. However, a car drops off a harmonium right after this, which is critical to the plot, so it the car crash was important to get the audience to pay attention to what seems like an unimportant event.

[wordmonkey]

I was thinking as a way to improve my screenplay I would move one of the really funny scenes and use it as an opening scene. That way the reader would at least know something about this movie is funny. Because there are funny scenes, (I hope) 25 pages into the script.

It's hard to do, I admit, but you gotta be ruthless. If that scene on page 25 is funny, and funny enough to move to page one, maybe THAT's where you need to start and scrap or completely revise the start.

Remember, and I hate these old cliches, but they are true. Comedy is set-up, followed by pay off. The really good stuff is set-up, followed by pay-off, followed by another pay-off (and if you follow the rule of three) another pay-off. But the key there is that each pay-off is made bigger and better from the pay-off before it, NOT JUST the set up.

Timing is the key, as has been said. If you can write comedy and do it well, drama is a walk in the park.

That old nugget? "Dying is easy... now comedy, THAT'S hard." It's true.

And I hate to say it, but comedy is a very serious thing and you have to be willing to stop laughing at yourself and work out what is funny, why it's funny and how you can make it funnier before building it again and being able to laugh at the gag.

The bonus here is that you have time to strip your script down to the frame and rebuild it, better, faster, funnier.

[mommyjo2]

If you can move a funny scene from the middle of the script, to the beginning, than you need to just start at the funny scene (and the middle is now the beginning).

[scripter1]

IF you can just pack up a scene and plop it down in the front of your script then you don't know SQUAT about your story and you haven't got any type of structural integrity at all!!!!!!

The whole thing is screwed up from the get go!!!

Mike, right now you need to quit worrying about how funny your writing is and actually figure out where and how your story needs to go.
You need to go back to stage one planning and discover where you story REALLY starts.

I'll have those articles for you tomorrow.

[Goodwriterguy]

IF you can just pack up a scene and plop it down in the front of your script then you don't know SQUAT about your story and you haven't got any type of structural integrity at all!!!!!!
While I'd agree with this generally, I don't think it's necessarily true in every case. One thing we can do in movies is play with time and play with perceptions. A scene may be largely inexplicable on its own and be entirely explained by what happens next. In my experience I've seen scenes shifted around or moved to the front to gain a more compelling opening with no loss of story logic or meaning at all, with perhaps just a bit of tweaking to make the change work.

Never say never.

[scripter1]

You're absolutly right.
Writers play around with thier scenes all the time, working to get the best pacing, the perfect build up. One of the methods for creating the plot outline is write down all the needed events on 3x5 cards and then switch em all around looking for the best set ups.

BUT

way way way WAY different then we're talking about here.
Note the key words in my post: pack up and plop.

Many novice writers think that a scene isn't working simply because of the place it's in, or because a character isn't right, or they need a monster or some action, or what ever.
They arbitrarily go around their script adding in things and taking out things trying to liven it up or make it say something.

It's like the stuido head giving you notes that say "Let's make the superhero a hot sexy chic because Jolie winked at me at a party two years ago." And the writer is sitting there going, "But the theme is about father's and thier relationships with daughters. If we change the main characters you change the whole script." "You better get writing then, I have to get a draft to Jolie in two weeks."

What they have to do is sit down and ACTUALLY think out the NEEDS of the script. Why a different scene in this new spot enhances the script.
Does it build up the surprise twist better? Does it show us a character change at a key moment? Ect, ect.

If you take a boring scene and move it it's STILL boring.

It's fine Mike if you want to move the scene. BUT you've got to think about it. You've got to tweak the other scenes so that it all flows smoothly, like that scene was there from the beginning.
Then you have to plug the hole with something just as good, even better since you'll likely be dealing with act 2 issues, and have it read like it was all perfectly planned out.

[scripter1]

finally showed up.

http://www.scriptsecrets.net/articles/zombie.htm

http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/.tip166.htm

http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/.tip239.htm

[wordmonkey]

What they have to do is sit down and ACTUALLY think out the NEEDS of the script.

I would give a variation on this. You have to think about the needs of your characters.

I know this might sound faffy and flaky, but I have NEVER been let down by putting a lot of effort into my characters and then letting them tell me what they wanna do. I can set goals and throw in roadblocks, but if I do my job with the characters, the antagonists will be far more evil and better at their job than I could be trying to be them, and my protagonists get far more creative and insightful when it comes to getting to the goal I set.

[Goodwriterguy]

You're absolutly right.
Writers play around with thier scenes all the time, working to get the best pacing, the perfect build up. One of the methods for creating the plot outline is write down all the needed events on 3x5 cards and then switch em all around looking for the best set ups.

BUT

way way way WAY different then we're talking about here.
Note the key words in my post: pack up and plop.

Many novice writers think that a scene isn't working simply because of the place it's in, or because a character isn't right, or they need a monster or some action, or what ever.
They arbitrarily go around their script adding in things and taking out things trying to liven it up or make it say something.
This is just poor writing habits. Nothing can be arbitrary. A screenplay is like a symphony in this respect and flat notes ruin the show. Coherence is achieved by building, deliberate construction.


It's like the stuido head giving you notes that say "Let's make the superhero a hot sexy chic because Jolie winked at me at a party two years ago." And the writer is sitting there going, "But the theme is about father's and thier relationships with daughters. If we change the main characters you change the whole script." "You better get writing then, I have to get a draft to Jolie in two weeks."
The moguls often think in the simpler ways of the market, they aren't story guys they're money guys, movie guys. A writer can be prepared for these kinds of interactions, and stand their ground to whatever extent they may choose or figure they can get away with. It is good to defend your symphony. On the other hand would it kill the thing to add some gunplay at one point or another? The compromises of a sale.


What they have to do is sit down and ACTUALLY think out the NEEDS of the script. Why a different scene in this new spot enhances the script.
Does it build up the surprise twist better? Does it show us a character change at a key moment? Ect, ect.

If you take a boring scene and move it it's STILL boring.
My remarks were much more narrowly focused on the idea of moving a high-action scene or, conversely a high-comedic scene to the front to achieve a more energetic and compelling opening. That's a specific writing issue I've seen recur time and time again with writer after writer. Openings are inherently a dilemma anyway, you've got to have an energetic situation going on (think of the opening of "Raiders of the Lost Ark"] and convey enough story information to hook an audience or a reader. We almost always begin on something that's setup material, we're trying to get our story going. That means dialogue, when what we need is action.

As a consequence, many openings are slowed to a crawl by exposition and set up talky scenes. Once that's done we get a big action scene, afterall, we've set it up, now we can do it. This scene usually occurs somehere around page 10 or 12 or 15. One can often just flip such a scene to the top and open with it. Who cares if we don't know who's who quite yet, this is an exciting scene! How's he gonna dodge that rolling ball of stone? Lookit those spiders! Will the plane make it into the air? Who is this guy?

Moments later we're at the university, fragged by that exciting opening and ready to hear some dialogue and learn who this guy is.

It won't take long for the audience (or a reader) to make sense of it and come to know what's going on and why.

Another angle of this is the scene dance one can get into when working on a particular sequence, say a ten page sequence with 25 scenes. One's first draft does not often catch the exact right sequencing of scenes in sequences like this, so in second drafting they can be shuffled a little perhaps, brightened up, tightened up, tuned up, taken a step up to enhance the telling. Maybe add a POV or something.

But as you say, none of this can be arbitrary. It has to be done against the grand scheme of your tale and how it ends. And you have that grand scheme at hand, either in an outline or a treatment or a beat sheet or just in your head, it is your guide ... as far as it goes, which doesn't extend to tuning up sequences or openings or endings, or scenes, which are just writer's work.

[clockwork]

I've got a problem; my movie is boring for the first 23 pages. It's a comedy and it doesn't get funny until around the 23rd page. You can read it in the other forum. I'm thinking maybe I should cut some of the begining scenes...

Will people read the whole script before they make a judgement?

Swinging this one back....

"It's a comedy and it doesn't get funny until around the 23rd page." Uh-oh. Then, technically, is it a comedy? Shouldn't a comedy, at the very least, be funny?

And no, people will not read the whole script before making a judgement. They'll make a judgement based on how it looks and feels when they pick it up, how long the script is, what the first page looks like, what your query letter read like - in short, they will make incessant and focused judgements from second one. There are so many reasons to reject scripts - don't shoot yourself in the foot. Make it hard for them to reject you. If you have doubts about your script now, it's unlikely that it'll safely make it through a read. You already know you have a problem. Do what feels right. Being intuitive about your work and the choices you make is important.

[mommyjo2]

remove the first 23 pages. burn them.

being boring at the beginning is a sin. don't commit it.

Don't do that. Take them out of the script, but don't destroy them.
Keep a file for ideas, and a file for scenes that needed work, didn't fit, etc.
The scene might be good for another script, or a jumping off point for another movie, or even as a 'rewrite' exercise as you start reading more books or taking classes.

Someday, if and when you are getting paid and booked to write for the next 3 years, you can pull them out for your interview with CS and laugh... "here's how I got my start".

I have a computer file for my script -it's labeled "Pie Crust -(title of movie)"
I put my extras - scenes that don't work, had to be cut, don't fit in - in there. It is like pie crust. Got to trim it off, but just because it doesn't work for the Big Apple one doesn't mean it won't work to make a tart.

[scripter1]

Well, it's a chicken or the egg kind of thing.

You can come at a story two ways (see the articles I posted.)

You can start with characters and then come up with a story that best develops them and takes them through their paces, producing the changes each character needs to make.

OR

You can take a story and then create the characters needed to bring it full circle.

Bottom line is Mike, just work back over your basic concept and consider that you may be coming at this all wrong. Since I don't know enough about your story it's hard to say exactly what is wrong.
At this point, first script, you're likely to have all kinds of issues.

And you know what, that is just fine!
Your learning.
Just do a bit more studying, reading scripts and message postings, and then keep working your script over.
From time to time something will click, you'll know what you need to do and you'll see improvment in the script.

Happy writing.

[Write_At_1st_Light]

I've got a problem; my movie is boring for the first 23 pages. It's a comedy and it doesn't get funny until around the 23rd page. You can read it in the other forum. I'm thinking maybe I should cut some of the begining scenes...

Will people read the whole script before they make a judgement?
Hi Mike!

This is a good thread because my next script is to be a comedy and so I figured I'd just weigh in.

I think you can have setup - unfunny - as long as it's short. I think 23 pages might be too much. If you look at a classic comedy - Dr. Strangelove - it does not reveal itself to be a comedy until you get inside the B-52 bomber. Just a bit after they receive the Plan R message. Until that point there is very little to laugh at - the flick could, in fact, be considered a drama to that point. Then it builds. And builds. Until you have Strangelove attacking himself with his own hand at the end, and saluting the Fuehrer, and the general discussing a "mine shaft gap". And all that bodily fluid stuff in between.

Anyway you are going to have unfunniness zones in your comedy throughout, because you'll need it for setup. If you can keep them short. You don't have to setup everything all up front. You can do a bit of drama setup in the beginning, and then switch immediately to a funny scene that will make sense later on.

Good luck to both of us, and actually to EVERYONE!

[wordmonkey]

IAnyway you are going to have unfunniness zones in your comedy throughout, because you'll need it for setup. If you can keep them short. You don't have to setup everything all up front. You can do a bit of drama setup in the beginning, and then switch immediately to a funny scene that will make sense later on.

Strangelove is a sub catagory. It's satire. Satire can set you up with a serious premise and then proceed to pull the legs off one by one.

I would say go watch the Marx Brothers for straight comedy. But frankly there are lots and lots of comedies. A slow start is a slow start and sadly, as is, I doubt Strangelove would get a greenlight today. I might be wrong, but watch it and compare it to a comedy that's showing now.

I also disagree that a good comedy has unfunny zones that are "set-ups." In many cases, what makes a great set-up is that you can watch it and you can tell that it's gonna back-fire. You can laugh in anticipation.

All the comedy parts should be funny in some way. If you add drama or conflict or romance, that's cool and they can be played straight, but all the comedy parts should always be driving for the laugh.

[Write_At_1st_Light]

Strangelove is a sub catagory. It's satire. Satire can set you up with a serious premise and then proceed to pull the legs off one by one.

I would say go watch the Marx Brothers for straight comedy. But frankly there are lots and lots of comedies. A slow start is a slow start and sadly, as is, I doubt Strangelove would get a greenlight today. I might be wrong, but watch it and compare it to a comedy that's showing now.

I also disagree that a good comedy has unfunny zones that are "set-ups." In many cases, what makes a great set-up is that you can watch it and you can tell that it's gonna back-fire. You can laugh in anticipation.

All the comedy parts should be funny in some way. If you add drama or conflict or romance, that's cool and they can be played straight, but all the comedy parts should always be driving for the laugh.
You might be right about Strangelove today, but if you are? Then that means we have real problems in the movie industry. It's the movie industry that has to change BACK to a point where the brilliance of something like Strangelove can be perceived.

[Mike The Mover]

Hi Mike!

I think you can have setup - unfunny - as long as it's short. I think 23 pages might be too much.

I've cut it down to 10 pages of set-up and opened with a comedic scene that actually fits. The set-up is essential to the overall story. I just can't tell the story without the set-up.

Good luck Write_At_1st_Light and everyone else!

[mommyjo2]

A setup can seem unfunny, if the audience is in on the joke.

[icerose]

I say post the ten pages see if anyone laughs. If no one even cracks a smile, you might still have a problem.

[dclary]

Yeah kill the first 22 pages.

Honest to God, if you want your script considered for a comedy there better be SOMETHING funny on every single page.

[xhouseboy]

Yeah kill the first 22 pages.

Honest to God, if you want your script considered for a comedy there better be SOMETHING funny on every single page.

Just caught The Big Lebowski again - it was on last night.

Whenever it wasn't laugh out loud, there was always something on screen to keep a smile on the face.

It didn't get a chance to wane. Not with Goodman weighing up every situation, however trivial, and declaring he didn't watch his buddies dying face down in the mud for this to happen... or Bridges wandering around coked out of his head while trying his hand at private sleuthing... or the Nihilists whose philosophy was that they cared about nothing but were determined to scam $1m dollars out of a handicapped millionaire, who was himself a con artist trying to scam this cash from needy children, and so on and so forth....