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dclary
09-23-2006, 02:33 AM
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/22/D8KA2UUO1.html


What's the consensus here? Can we agree that men and women actually are physiologically different, and that the ideal man in the prime of human conditioning is larger, stronger and better suited to difficult spacey stuff than the ideal woman?

blacbird
09-23-2006, 02:39 AM
You don't understand math, declarey.

caw.

Maryn
09-23-2006, 02:51 AM
You mean can we agree the physical size and strength equals the ability to retain consciousness?

Nope. We can't.

Maryn, remembering vividly that the ones who fainted during gory driver's ed movies were all male

dclary
09-23-2006, 02:58 AM
No, I didn't mean that at all, I don't think.

Birol
09-23-2006, 03:00 AM
I think you meant to be deliberately misogynic and start an argument.

Kate Thornton
09-23-2006, 03:00 AM
WTF is an "ideal man"?

Here's an article on Physiological parameters that predict orthostatic intolerance after spaceflight:

http://www.desc.med.vu.nl/NL-taxi/DELTA-Day-Abstracts.htm

billythrilly7th
09-23-2006, 03:04 AM
WTF is an "ideal man"?


http://www.citypages.com/blogmedia/amadzine/lowedown.jpeg

dclary
09-23-2006, 03:04 AM
I think you meant to be deliberately misogynic and start an argument.

Yes! That's it, exactly.

I was hoping more a debate than an argument, but you get more spirited dialogue if you start off with an inciteful push.

dclary
09-23-2006, 03:06 AM
WTF is an "ideal man"?


I don't know. I just wanted to make it clear that we weren't talking about fat lazy average guys versus solid athletic women. It's VERY clear and obvious that women CAN certainly be stronger, abler, and better than many (if not most) men with enough drive and training. But NASA's standards for applicants require men and women at the tip-top of the genetic pool. Given that, wouldn't it be fair to say the best genetic man is going to be stronger than the best genetic woman?

Kate Thornton
09-23-2006, 03:13 AM
Stronger, no doubt. But NASA picks for more than just strength - agility, command experience and scientific expertise count.

Ultimately, those will be some of the qualities we'll all be looking for for space colonization, too.

I think a better topic would be Why Humans Are Having Such A Hard Time Getting Off this Planet.

Here's a headline from last week that made me laugh:

"Astronauts Lose Bolt In Space: Nuts OK"

English Dave
09-23-2006, 03:17 AM
Space. The final frontier.

Where men's inability to throw up or cry really means something.

I'm fer it!

dclary
09-23-2006, 03:26 AM
Stronger, no doubt. But NASA picks for more than just strength - agility, command experience and scientific expertise count.

Ultimately, those will be some of the qualities we'll all be looking for for space colonization, too.

I think a better topic would be Why Humans Are Having Such A Hard Time Getting Off this Planet.

Here's a headline from last week that made me laugh:

"Astronauts Lose Bolt In Space: Nuts OK"


LOL. That IS funny.

And you're right. If we're ever going to survive as a race we gotta get off this damn rock.

Papa'sLiver
09-23-2006, 03:28 AM
I think you meant to be deliberately misogynic and start an argument.


Yup.

dclary
09-23-2006, 03:30 AM
How could I be "misogynic?"

I don't even know what that means!!!

dpaterso
09-23-2006, 03:32 AM
Both male and female astronauts alike have passed batteries of physical and mental tests that qualify them to ride a rocket into space. Both sexes are capable of withstanding the gee forces they'll encounter during launch. In other words, there's nothing to discuss.

-Derek
My Web Page - shameless vampyre fiction & other shameless writings. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)
This is the crack team that foils my every plan? I am deeply shamed.

aadams73
09-23-2006, 03:38 AM
What's the consensus here? Can we agree that men and women actually are physiologically different, and that the ideal man in the prime of human conditioning is larger, stronger and better suited to difficult spacey stuff than the ideal woman?

Puhlease. I can do anything you can do except swill beer and produce sperm. I could probably even pee standing up if I had one of those bendy straws. :D

Having said that, you couldn't pay me enough to get me up in outer space. Well, not until we go all Star Trekky.


Oh wait, I can't grow hair on my chest either.

English Dave
09-23-2006, 03:43 AM
.


Oh wait, I can't grow hair on my chest either.

We're made for each other!

aadams73
09-23-2006, 03:46 AM
Alas, I am not a stained window :D

English Dave
09-23-2006, 03:47 AM
Alas, I am not a stained window :D

Gimmee three seconds.

aadams73
09-23-2006, 04:01 AM
That long?

English Dave
09-23-2006, 04:03 AM
That long?

You get sex plus the Totenham Hotspur cup winning side.



Spoken quickly.

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 04:22 AM
How could I be "misogynic?"

I don't even know what that means!!!
You're sexist.

misogynic

adj : (used of men) having deep-seated distrust of women

Perks
09-23-2006, 04:25 AM
I'm confused. She did just fine in space. She got wobbly once she came back. So, being an astronaut is dandy for women. Apparently it's her proximity to you, dclary, that seems to cause her problems.

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 04:28 AM
I'm confused. She did just fine in space. She got wobbly once she came back. So, being an astronaut is dandy for women. Apparently it's her proximity to you, dclary, that seems to cause her problems.
As does everyone when they return from space. It usually doesn't happen during a press conference, for all to see, is what was said on the news.

Perks
09-23-2006, 04:28 AM
But, all pissing contests aside - standing or squatting, we all seem to get the stuff out.

If you want to assert that the fittest man is going to be stronger than the fittest women, I've no argument to make. It hardly makes for edgy debate, though.

English Dave
09-23-2006, 04:31 AM
Women set the tone.

Men follow.



Edgy?

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 04:31 AM
It hardly makes for edgy debate, though.
Gotta keep up the lead in thread starting...

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 04:31 AM
Women set the tone.

Men follow.



Edgy?
The norm

English Dave
09-23-2006, 04:32 AM
The norm

Yep. :)

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 04:33 AM
:D

robeiae
09-23-2006, 04:50 AM
Debate? Hmmm...

Actually, I think that on average, women might be better than men as astronauts, physiologically speaking. Of course, it's a new field for women, so we are hardly getting the same kind of sample to choose from. Give it a few more years.

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 04:56 AM
Debate? Hmmm...

Actually, I think that on average, women might be better than men as astronauts, physiologically speaking. Of course, it's a new field for women, so we are hardly getting the same kind of sample to choose from. Give it a few more years.
Women pilots, scientists, etc., yup, I agree.

English Dave
09-23-2006, 04:59 AM
Women pilots, scientists, etc., yup, I agree.

Men minus guilt = women.


Simple equation. :)

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:06 AM
You're sexist.

misogynic

adj : (used of men) having deep-seated distrust of women

Well of course I'm sexist. Who would be dumb enough not to be?

In case you haven't noticed, there ARE differences between men and women. Physical, psychological, biological. Even feminists understand that. To think otherwise would just be stupid.

And I guess I'm not misogynic then. I don't distrust women any more or less than I distrust men.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:07 AM
I'm confused. She did just fine in space. She got wobbly once she came back. So, being an astronaut is dandy for women. Apparently it's her proximity to you, dclary, that seems to cause her problems.

Excellent point! I am forced to register myself as a deadly weapon of love when I'm wearing my Axe.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:08 AM
But, all pissing contests aside - standing or squatting, we all seem to get the stuff out.

If you want to assert that the fittest man is going to be stronger than the fittest women, I've no argument to make. It hardly makes for edgy debate, though.

Exactly. And if you read my first post carefully, this is exactly what I was saying. I just said it in such a way as to get danderable folks' dander up.

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 05:14 AM
Well of course I'm sexist. Who would be dumb enough not to be?

In case you haven't noticed, there ARE differences between men and women. Physical, psychological, biological. Even feminists understand that. To think otherwise would just be stupid.

And I guess I'm not misogynic then. I don't distrust women any more or less than I distrust men.
Obviously there are differences between men and women. The fact that you even wrote that shows that you are misogynic.

Not every male is "dumb enough" to be sexist. Many weren't raised in that manner. Many were raised w/ class.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:16 AM
Obviously there are differences between men and women. The fact that you even wrote that shows that you are misogynic.

Not every male is "dumb enough" to be sexist. Many weren't raised in that manner. Many were raised w/ class.

Ok then, what does "sexist" mean? Maybe my definition tables are corrupt.

English Dave
09-23-2006, 05:16 AM
Obviously there are differences between men and women. The fact that you even wrote that shows that you are misogynic.

Not every male is "dumb enough" to be sexist. Many weren't raised in that manner. Many were raised w/ class.

By women...you *****! :)

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 05:18 AM
Ok then, what does "sexist" mean? Maybe my definition tables are corrupt.
I think it may be good for you to look it up, yourself.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:19 AM
I think it may be good for you to look it up, yourself.

Unhelpful, too. Sheesh.

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 05:20 AM
Unhelpful, too. Sheesh.
You're lazy. What do you think it means?

English Dave
09-23-2006, 05:21 AM
I think it may be good for you to look it up, yourself.

Clary is married JM. As such, anything he posts here is a form of release.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:21 AM
Ok, I looked it up.

Sexism:

Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
Ok, for number 1, now I have to look up discrimination. Dammit. This is hard!

Number 2 is easier. That ain't me.

BRB with the definition of discrimination.

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 05:23 AM
Clary is married JM. As such, anything he posts here is a form of release.
Meaning, he spends very little time w/ his wife :)

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 05:23 AM
clary, it means you think women are inferior.

English Dave
09-23-2006, 05:24 AM
Meaning, he spends very little time w/ his wife :)


I didn't say happily married!

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:26 AM
dis·crim·i·na·tion (dĭ-skrĭm'ə-nā'shən) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n.
The act of discriminating (http://www.answers.com/topic/discriminating).
The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.Oh, great with the #1. Thanks a lot dictionary.com.

#2. The ability to make fine distinctions or discernment. I can discern that men and women are different, so that means I'm discriminating, which means that I'm sexist.

Hmmm, except that #3 doesn't apply though. I mistreat everyone equally and fairly. So maybe I'm not a sexist.

How can you have a definition with a positive connotation AND a negative connotation, and expect anyone to understand whether or not you mean it positively or negatively, even when taken in context?

Bizarre.

Anyway, yeah, it looks like I'm a sexist, but a good sexist, not a bad one.

Aren't you?

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:26 AM
Clary is married JM. As such, anything he posts here is a form of release.You should know. How's Camilla?

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:27 AM
clary, it means you think women are inferior.

Inferior to what? Women are awesome! What, are you calling me queer?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I love women. And often they have loved me.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:28 AM
:ROFL: I didn't say happily married!

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 05:28 AM
There's no such thing as a good sexist, clary. Sorry. Thinking women are inferior is not a good thing, at all.

Jean Marie
09-23-2006, 05:29 AM
At least you admit it, now that you know what it means.

English Dave
09-23-2006, 05:30 AM
You should know. How's Camilla?

Still pulling to the left in the second Chucka. Otherwise not too bad.

rekirts
09-23-2006, 05:30 AM
Erm, the title of the thread is, "Why Girls Shouldn't Be Astronauts." Simple answer, because they're too young. When they grow up and become women, that's a different story.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:32 AM
There's no such thing as a good sexist, clary. Sorry. Thinking women are inferior is not a good thing, at all.

Ok, except there are connotations of discriminating that are positive. So what you're saying is that "sexist" only uses the *negative* definition of "discriminating" becoming lingually discriminatory itself then, no?

In that case, I'm not sexist. Because I definitely don't think women are inferior. Just different.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:33 AM
Erm, the title of the thread is, "Why Girls Shouldn't Be Astronauts." Simple answer, because they're too young. When they grow up and become women, that's a different story.

Excellent answer! NASA should stop sending prepubescent girls into space!!!

rekirts
09-23-2006, 05:33 AM
And boys shouldn't be astronauts either because they're too young, too.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:34 AM
Oh, and serious (kinda) answer to why not post this in OP instead of TIO?

Because TIO stays on topic. I hate the fact that every goddammed thread in OP gets hijacked on page one and ends up Stew and Robeiaiao cybersexing themselves for our viewing displeasure.


ETA: Hmmm. I meant to post this in the Mayan dumba$$es thread. Sorry.

English Dave
09-23-2006, 05:36 AM
Oh, and serious (kinda) answer to why not post this in OP instead of TIO?

Because TIO stays on topic. I hate the fact that every goddammed thread in OP gets hijacked on page one and ends up Stew and Robeiaiao cybersexing themselves for our viewing displeasure.




Is that gay Porn?

Gotta be cheaper than the Marriot.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:38 AM
Is that gay Porn?

Gotta be cheaper than the Marriot.

I go to the Hilton for my porn... if you get my drift.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:39 AM
Dammit! Now we're off topic!

This is YOUR fault, crooked-teeth-boy!

English Dave
09-23-2006, 05:41 AM
I go to the Hilton for my porn... if you get my drift.

Yes. I get it.

You're cheap.

She's on Freeview in the Marriot.

dclary
09-23-2006, 05:42 AM
Yes. I get it.

You're cheap.

She's on Freeview in the Marriot.

Doh!

TsukiRyoko
09-23-2006, 06:02 AM
What you waiting for then, Dave? Get up there.

Opty
09-23-2006, 06:02 AM
I dunno, Dave.

If this had been called, "Why Girls Shouldn't Be Firefighters," I might've been able to support it.

robeiae
09-23-2006, 06:04 AM
I dunno, Dave.

If this had been called, "Why Girls Shouldn't Be Firefighters," I might've been able to support it.This is true.

dclary
09-23-2006, 06:10 AM
What you waiting for then, Dave? Get up there.

I am by no means the ideal specimen of man, physically speaking.

Let me know when the Huttese space program is initiated.

dclary
09-23-2006, 06:12 AM
This is true.

No, see I can't. I know many female paramedics and firefighters. While it's true that not ALL girls could be firefighters, it's just as true that not all MEN could either.

Plus, the article was about astronauts.

robeiae
09-23-2006, 06:22 AM
No, see I can't.This response is incoherent; DrSpork said "if this had been called...I might've been able to support it," and I agreed that I might have as well with my "this is true." You didn't really address either position in context. You should've said something like "but I wouldn't," meaning you wouldn't have named the thread as DrSpork suggested or you wouldn't have supported a thread with such a name. As it is, your "no, see I can't" can only be taken as a Yoda-like proclamation of real or figurative blindness: see I cannot. I know many female paramedics and firefighters. While it's true that not ALL girls could be firefighters, it's just as true that not all MEN could either.Perhaps others know female astronauts--your personal experiences are hardly a sifficient basis from which to draw a general conclusion.
Plus, the article was about astronauts.An article that you chose to serve your own ill-conceived agenda...











:D :tongue

dclary
09-23-2006, 06:25 AM
This response is incoherent; DrSpork said "if this had been called...I might've been able to support it," and I agreed that I might have as well with my "this is true." You didn't really address either position in context. You should've said something like "but I wouldn't," meaning you wouldn't have named the thread as DrSpork suggested or you wouldn't have supported a thread with such a name. As it is, your "no, see I can't" can only be taken as a Yoda-like proclamation of real or figurative blindness: see I cannot. Perhaps others know female astronauts--your personal experiences are hardly a sifficient basis from which to draw a general conclusion.
An article that you chose to serve your own ill-conceived agenda...











:D :tongue

Bastiche! I thought you were going with option B!

"see I cannot." :roll:

Perks
09-23-2006, 06:39 AM
You guys are freaks. You know that, right?

rekirts
09-23-2006, 06:50 AM
You keep up all this shyte about girls shouldn't do this and girls shouldn't do that and I'm going to start a thread about the vileness of child labour. Girls should bloody well go to school and get an education so that when they're women they can do whatever they hell they're qualified for.

So there! *Flounces out of thread.*

robeiae
09-23-2006, 07:02 AM
*shakes head*

Chicks.

Chacounne
09-23-2006, 07:11 AM
Ummmm, just a point ... space is the one area where strength really doesn't matter, because there isn't any gravity ...

Trying to be helpful,
Heather

MattW
09-23-2006, 07:33 AM
Ummmm, just a point ... space is the one area where strength really doesn't matter, because there isn't any gravity ...
As long as you don't plan on coming back to good ol' 1G, sure.

If you do, muscle entropy could more seriously affect women (long term or without preventive exercise) - even a "fit" female astronaut should have 10-20% body fat, while similar males could be in the range 5-12%.

But for the purposes of current space flight, it doesn't really matter because we're not really going anywhere.

SC Harrison
09-23-2006, 07:55 AM
What's the consensus here? Can we agree that men and women actually are physiologically different, and that the ideal man in the prime of human conditioning is larger, stronger and better suited to difficult spacey stuff than the ideal woman?

First of all, physical strength in zero-g is not nearly as important as it is down here in heavyland. Plus, a petite astronaut consumes less of everything (oxygen, food, water, etc.), and the difference in weight between the male (200 lbs?) and female (120 lbs?) equates to more food and water. Rand says:

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA022287

Abstract : Assuming they possess the same educational and intellectual qualifications, the female astronaut has certain physiological advantages over the male. Women are generally lighter in weight and require less oxygen and metabolic nourishment, important considerations when every pound of added capsule weight is a detriment to cost and capability factors of manned spacecraft. Examination has shown that women react more quickly to stimuli, tolerate boredom and monotony better, and are less prone to hallucinations during periods of sensory deprivation. They are less susceptible to heart attacks and have a higher tolerance for radiation. Under the theory that astronauts should be chosen for small mass and dependability, females would seem to be ideal subject. The report discusses fatigue, endurance and response; reactions to altitude conditions; hormonal functions; and psychosocial obstacles.


And then there are cardio-vascular issues to consider. Most of us (should) know of the higher risk in men for heart problems. Try not to go to sleep reading this:

http://www.femsinspace.com/injurytoheart.htm

APPENDIX
Recent evidence has been published [33] indicating that the normal life span of an adult human endothelial cell has been estimated to be around 30 years. The regenerated cells, however are dysfunclional. predisposing to vasoconstriction [33]. Since young women retain magnesium better on marginal magnesium intakes than do young men [34]. and estrogens have been shown to have several cardio-vasular protective effects [35-37]. a case can be made for selecting an all-female astronaut crew to Mars with return prior to age 30.

Perks
09-23-2006, 08:09 AM
All that and I'm thinking Dave and all you naysayers better hope that you're wrong, or there will be lots of long, lonely nights once they figure out how to transfer all your hairy manasses to Alpha Centauri.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
09-23-2006, 05:33 PM
Exactly. And if you read my first post carefully, this is exactly what I was saying. I just said it in such a way as to get danderable folks' dander up.

IOW, you're a troublemaker.

I rest my case, yer honor.

Lyra Jean
09-23-2006, 07:17 PM
So if there was a program to send people off this rock what would you put down as your qualifications?

1. I'm a follower
2. I'm fertile

I'm not into math. I have no science skills. Should I get some just in case this scenario happens. Then I can write down some real skills.

dclary
09-24-2006, 12:34 AM
IOW, you're a troublemaker.

I rest my case, yer honor.

I prefer the term "Partystarter."

aadams73
09-24-2006, 01:20 AM
I'd call you more of a....sh!tstirrer.

nicegrrl
09-24-2006, 01:24 AM
I dont think being strong hasw much to do with making a good austronaut.

dclary
09-24-2006, 03:50 AM
I'd call you more of a....sh!tstirrer.

That works.

LOL

Kate Thornton
09-24-2006, 05:45 AM
So if there was a program to send people off this rock what would you put down as your qualifications?

1. I'm a follower
2. I'm fertile



Actually, in a colonization run, your attributes would be much sought after.

I'm just an engineer and not physically able to go - but someone would have to stay here and rule...

fallenangelwriter
09-25-2006, 11:00 PM
I realize that this is TIO, so I try to take things lightly.

I will point out, however, that misogyny (of which the adjective form is generally misogynistic, by the way. /pedantry), whether genuine or not, is not funny.

Since this is TIO, I'm don't think the thread needs to be closed, or anything. But I do want to take a moment to express my opinion that this kind of thing is repulsive and juvenile.

Sexism is real. It's pervasive, even, and highly damagin. It's not funny. And a lot of misogynistic attitudes are submerged nowadays. People aren't so free to express them openly. But there are many kinds of bigots, and often those who really mean what they say will mount that feeblest defense: "I was only kidding. Gosh, can't you take a joke?"

But jokes about oppressing women only legitimize the actual oppression of women. That isn't a part of what I would consider civil discourse.

English Dave
09-25-2006, 11:06 PM
Sexism is real. It's pervasive, even, and highly damagin.

Yer darned tootin'.

Do you have a defective keyboard?

Just asking because I have. The 'O' , 'I' 'T' and 'H' have worn away completely and the 'Y and 'E' are hanging on by a thread. :)

dclary
09-25-2006, 11:42 PM
I am sorry for starting this thread. I never meant to disparage women, by far the fairer, smarter, wiser of the two genders.

Please forgive me.

scarletpeaches
09-25-2006, 11:44 PM
Of course women can't be astronauts. How is someone supposed to get in the kitchen and cook their husband a nice meal in zero gravity?

robeiae
09-25-2006, 11:46 PM
I am sorry for starting this thread. I never meant to disparage women, by far the fairer, smarter, wiser of the two genders.

Please forgive me.

I fixed this for you. It reads better, now. :D