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TwentyFour
08-17-2006, 04:26 AM
Tired of seeing those quotes in NEPAT? Me too, so I'm starting this thread. I sometimes quote PAMB and ask if the info. is correct or if they are completely off base with publishing, I seen many others do the same...


So...


For those of us who want to quote the PAMB before the evidence is deleted...here you go!


I hate to click on the sites listed and the whole page or thread is gone, it may be easier to find it by quoting it first on here and referring someone to this thread...if not then a moderator can close it.


I'll start it out with this one:

Are you really sure that you want your book in a bookstore? Do you know that bookstore sales only account for 25% of the books that are sold. That means that 75% of the books are sold elsewhere. Stop to consider all the work that you will be doing for a very small return.

My first book retails for $17.95 if a bookstore was to order one copy and receieve the standard discount that means they would pay 10.77 for my book. My roryalty for that book would be a whopping .87 cents. Not hardly worth the time I would say.

Your book would have to sell several hundred to make you any money at all. I realize that many of us, myself include did not write our books just for the monetary gain, however I don't think that any of us wrote or books to see such a little return.

I would rather market the book myself and put the difference in my pocket instead of a cash register in a bookstore somewhere. Many people prefer to buy books directly from an author as they can tell others that the know an author.."see he autographed his book for me"...



Ok that quote is just wrong by all means! I hope they see the light soon, but from his/her posts it would seem they are the new poster boy for PAMB and have encouraged others to buy and pay for many other services (websites, etc.).

Anyone else have a quote that stands out to them?

James D. Macdonald
08-18-2006, 04:18 AM
I would rather market the book myself and put the difference in my pocket instead of a cash register in a bookstore somewhere.

To which I would say, "My friend, what is your time worth? Shouldn't you be writing your next book?"

DamaNegra
08-18-2006, 04:29 AM
About NYLA:

Hello,

Beware of the dog! They have a very bad reputation! They take fees! Look for on Internet, you will find more infos there.
Have a good day.

Tee hee.

TwentyFour
08-18-2006, 06:04 AM
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black...IMO.

TwentyFour
08-19-2006, 06:45 AM
Here's a blast from the past...
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:45 pm

87 cents this and 87 cents that...
If your goal is to sell your book as expensive as possible why not start your own bookstore? Geez greedy people...
so what if you only get 87 cents or 8 dollars or whatever... is that the only thing you are thinking of?

I don't care how much my book goes for because I have reached my goal and that was to get published...

Joanna_S
08-22-2006, 02:33 PM
Okay, the irony of this one was too great. After one member told a story about being approached by one of those cheezy 'anthologies' where the writer has to pay a few thousand dollars to be published, one of the other PAMB people said:

Remember the rule of capitalism.

People pay you for your products and services; only fools pay for their products and services.

This from a PA author. If only he owned a mirror.

-- Joanna

TwentyFour
08-24-2006, 01:28 AM
Has anyone ever gotten a 2 year contract for a second book? Is this normal? If it is, does it really take 2 years?


I found it funny that this poor woman has had one book published but thinks that a 2 year contract means it takes two years to get out?

I can only speak for myself, but if I find a book in the bookstore that intrigues me, paying the extra few dollars is a small price to pay for what could easily be several hours of enjoyment.
I do however find that I am adverse to buying books that are not of a certain quality of production. Nothing over the top. Just a basic solid book that doesn't fall to pieces when you actually "open" it.
Other than that, it's the synopsis and flipping through a few pages that is the deciding factor for me.
First of all, I have had PA books and got one or two from the local library and they did actually fall apart, and these were new books from PA! They just fell apart from lack of binding, lack of glue, lack of care to put them together.

I also do not believe a bookstore will have many PA books in it marked at the price PA sells them.

Christine N.
08-24-2006, 02:04 AM
That's why PA doesn't pay on 'cover price'... the prices aren't printed ON the covers!
How does anyone in a bookstore even know how much they are? It's not like bookstore employees go around with a price gun like the old days. The prices of all the other books are on the covers. The only stickers I ever see are the discount ones.

Just another thing PA does to get in the way of bookstore placement. Oh, and do the bar codes scan yet?

astonwest
08-24-2006, 02:21 AM
That's why PA doesn't pay on 'cover price'... the prices aren't printed ON the covers!The prices used to be printed on the covers, and didn't pay on cover price back then either.

My personal guess was that authors would see the price listed on the cover proofs, and start asking too many questions about pricing (as I did).

If PA cared about their authors, I would have guessed they stopped putting the prices on so potential buyers wouldn't ask "Why are you selling this book for $5 if it originally sold for $19.95?"

But they don't, so I'll stick with my first guess...

CaoPaux
08-24-2006, 02:46 AM
A printed price is also a common requirement of (book)stores. Therefore, PA had only to take it off and *poof* more insurance their books wouldn't stocked.

TwentyFour
08-24-2006, 04:19 AM
The old PA books I seen had them on the cover, thin 99 page paperbacks that fell apart and were priced at $14.95! I knew then (and I had yet to find this site) that PA was fishy. Once I read the book and found errors everywhere, I knew for sure!

TwentyFour
08-24-2006, 04:45 AM
I had this happen on ebay once, it is harder to fix when the guy is in Canada and being deleted from the site, now I know PA can pay them back! I’ve personally purchased three books from PA authors. Actually, I’ve paid for four, but I only received three. “Why is that?” you may wonder. Well, through a mix-up, I bought a book from the PA book site and then shortly thereafter, I cancelled it and bought it directly from the author. Well, somehow the cancellation cancelled the book being sent, but it didn’t cancel the payment for the book coming out of my checking account. And then I never followed up on getting my money back from PA. It was my fault, not their’s.

astonwest
08-25-2006, 03:16 AM
Once I read the book and found errors everywhere, I knew for sure!If only I had purchased one of their books BEFORE signing a contract.

Even though it would be money in PA's pockets, it would almost be worth it to have a library of PA-examples, to loan out to people who are convinced they should sign with PA...

Popeyesays
08-25-2006, 04:25 AM
Look at the bar code on the book. The last three or four digits are the price. If they don't put it there, then that's probably why their bar codes don't scan right.

Regards,

Scott

Christine N.
08-27-2006, 11:53 PM
Ack. Ack. Ack. Snipped for brevity.

Publisher, a Book, a Few Random Thoughts

The subject was a publisher. In this case PublishAmerica. There are people out there that bad-mouth it so let me tell you my experience with the firm. Remember, please, that I've been dealing with various sorts of publishers for more than half a century. Since 1946 to be precise.

He keeps saying this, but I don't know which ones. Newspapers, magazines? Animals of a different color! If he'd ever dealt with a legitimate publisher, WHY is with PA? One must wonder. (ETA: Apparently the poster's experience with publishing IS newspapers and mags... again, NOT books. Books are a whole 'nother ball game, friend.)

I've dealt with good ones, bad ones, fair ones, unfair ones, honest ones, lying ones, cheating ones, greedy ones, sloppy ones, lazy ones and a couple of dozen other varieties.

Again, the question remains... I guess you didn't learn much about publishing for all your experience. Or maybe you're just stubborn? Not trying to be rude, but wondering WHY!

Considering all that it was downright annoying when PublishAmerica turned me down flat when I made them an offer I thought they couldn't refuse. And those bad-mouthers accusing them of accepting anything and everything, what a crock.

No, you just submitted late in the day. If you submitted it again the next day, early, voila! A contract! I wonder if anyone's ever tried resbumitting a 'rejected' manuscript.


Now when things don't go quite the way they want, those kind of people go off in a huff and write nasty posts on websites. Rank amateurs do that sort of thing.

Uh. huh. I really wish people would take a peek at WHO is doing the talking. Jim, Jenna, Victoria.. all rank amateurs with no credibility, right? I guess he did the same amount of homework on the bashers as he did on a publisher.
Oh, I'm SO jealous too, by the way.

And Miss Snark, along with all the other industry PROFESSIONALS (in books! real publishing!) who speak out against PA are people for whom things 'didn't go their way'. The mind boggles.

Being an old hand in the world of publishing

And yet....

Between times I was in contact with some of the nicest, most competent people I have ever encountered. Professionals in every respect. I don't stun easily after all these years but I was stunned by the efficiency and workmanship of Yael, the cover designer.

Yeah, just wait until you irritate them enough for a tone letter. Professional what? is my question. Yes, that cover designer can use clip art with the best of them.


Not only did he do a great job, he did it in three hours and he didn't have much to work with. The editor that handled my copy had the proof corrections made and back to me in twenty minutes. Then came the capper - the finished product exceeded my expectations in every respect.

Three WHOLE hours? How can you even think that quality work can be done in that time frame! Good art takes days, if not weeks. CLIP ART takes hours. The editor... 20 minutes, huh. How many errors did they put in? Your expectations are too low, IMO.

So what sort of person spends their time complaining about a company like that rather than acting like a professional in the writing game? Those that know nothing about the business, expect miracles, make unreasonable demands. In other words wannabes. Amateurs who feel it necessary to broadcast their shortcomings to the world. They may be forgetting one thing: the publishing world is a small one and every time they vent their frustrations with a nasty comment they are hurting their chances of acceptance with all publishers. They do read that stuff, you know, they do remember names. Like everyone, though, they ignore anonymous submissions of any kind. If a person lacks the courage to sign his name to something he has written he is not worthy of attention.

*picking myself up off the floor from laughing* Yeah, all those pros in the industry have a big list somewhere. Right. NOT. Espeically not for bad-mouthing PA, because they either a) know what it is or b) it's not even a blip on the radar.

WAKE UP! Look around... PA is knocking no one over in publishing. The industry continues to ignore them at every turn. You take that PA book and try to use it as a writing credit for a real agent or publisher, and see what they say.

Do the homework, my friend. Check out the "What the industry really thinks of PA" thread. LOOK at the credits of some of the people doing the talking.

Nope, talking about PA, exposing them, will never EVER hurt an author's chances of acceptance. No one will reject a book b/c of something said about PA.

I don't get the delusion some people labor under. Royalty checks are a-coming though.

*This is in no way a critique of the poster's work. I haven't read it. I'm only pointing out the continual spread of misinformation disguised as expert opinon. Real publishing experts that know of PA at all, agree that it is vanity in disguise. Don't fall for the hype.*

JulieB
08-28-2006, 12:34 AM
Twenty minutes? Wow. I need to tell that to my editor. She's took way to long to edit my book. But then, what do those folks at big-name publishing houses know, anyway? ;-)

Christine N.
08-28-2006, 01:06 AM
I know, right? My last book, I think we took a good three months of back and forth, cutting and rewrites. Of course, it's a children's book and about half the size of most novels.

It takes about 20 minutes to run a spell-check and accept everything without paying attention in a full-length, though, doesn't it?

It all seems rather ridiculous to me, what some people believe about this industry. Do the math, do the homework, and above all LISTEN to people who have been in it longer than you have. And by that I mean the part of the industry you're presently dealing with.

PS - from the same thread - I don't think anyone hates any individual author, and certainly NOT because of one singular opinion. Hate is a very strong word. Dislike? Ok, and not even the person, but the way in which opinion is expressed has a lot to do with it, especially when even simple points are not conceded. You might say I'm the same; but my opinions are based on what I KNOW about the industry, and that comes from things the nice people who actually work in it tell me. What reason is there to lie about it, when you can go to any library and find out the facts?? Some just don't wish to see the forest from the trees. If you're happy with PA, great. I suppose you don't want to be a career author - writing is just a hobby. Good for you.

Anyone who recommends PA to another author with aspirations of a writing career is doing that person a grave disservice, and I hope that person is not a close friend that you will miss when they find out the truth.

Raindrops
08-28-2006, 01:42 AM
Boy, I'm sure glad my editor doesn't spend three hours on my manuscript. As Christine mentioned, it takes 3 to 4 months, or even longer for a manuscript to shine like a new penny. Who in their right mind, would feel confident enough to see their book go to print with little time spent on editing it?:Shrug: But, I guess the above entry answered my question.

To this day, I'm still learning about the publishing industry. I welcome any info I receive, and I certainly would not bad mouth a person for trying to help me understand. ;)

James D. Macdonald
08-28-2006, 02:55 AM
In this case PublishAmerica. There are people out there that bad-mouth it so let me tell you my experience with the firm.

Honeymooner. His book's been out less than a month.

We'll see what tune he sings come February.

Christine N.
08-28-2006, 04:12 AM
What's Carl's excuse then?

He must just enjoy being a salesmen. I'm not saying that in a bad way either, because some really do enjoy that type of work and are very good at it. Not me, not most writers I know, but maybe he does.

James D. Macdonald
08-28-2006, 07:32 AM
White Raven? I think he's aware that he's playing the Published Author Role-Playing Game, and all he ever wanted to do is play author.

That doesn't excuse his Judas Goat activites, but it does explain them.

Bubastes
08-28-2006, 05:44 PM
Published Author Role-Playing Game? Okay, maybe I'm just dense or slow, but I simply don't understand what this is all about. Why would someone go with PA or POD just to "play author" (whatever that means). It's like buying a counterfeit designer purse -- you know it's fake, other people know it's fake, so what's the point? Am I missing something here?

JulieB
08-28-2006, 06:12 PM
Alas, there are people in this world who don't realize they're buying fakes. Then there are the people who buy the fakes and don't care because they think they got a deal. Then there are those who buy the fakes because they think they're beating the system. In the end, they usually cry when the bag falls apart a week later.

It's an egoboo. Someone can't afford the real bag so they buy the fake one in order to impress their friends. They're perfectly willing to overlook the fact that the label says "Briteon" or "Louie Louie Vitton" because darn it, they've joined the "in" crowd with their bags. They're playing the I've Got A Designer Bag game and it makes them feel special.

Of course, it isn't fair to dump everyone who goes POD into the same bag. POD is a technology, and there are good reasons for going with a real self-publishing outfit like Lulu, and they're discussed in-depth elsewhere on this site.

Christine N.
08-28-2006, 07:32 PM
Another country heard from. White Raven can't help himself, I don't think.

I don't know how much PA invests in each author: the costs associated with getting our books in all the on-line bookstores (mine was in at least 26 by last count), gives us our on WEB page and a message board to interact with our fellow PA authors, plus working with us on books covers, editing and etc.

Minimum time from new college grads who probably work for a pittance an hour. I don't know how much PA invests etither, but getting the book in print shape is only half the battle.

The investment cost per author must be substantial and amazes me that a company would risk so much for unknown writers with absolutely no guarantee of recovery.

They know they'll recover it as soon as you buy your first batch of books. They're laughing all the way to the bank. The only risk they take is that all your friends and family won't buy a copy. I doubt it's that much - what a couple hundred bucks?

If there is another publisher that does so much for so many authors, I am not aware of it.

This is really the most ridiculous statment I've ever heard. EVERY commercial publisher does more for their authors than PA, down to the smallest small press. Why? 'Cause they want to sell to the general public.

I am not naive enough to not know that there are major publishing houses that invest substantial amounts in a very select stable of authors; an author community that represents only one-half of one percent of all writers. I read the literary magazines and read what editors say about how they reject without getting past the first page and in some cases, the first paragraph.

Uh, Carl, if they're not reading past the first page or so, you need to rewrite it or find someone who likes it. My personal threshold is five pages. If you've got me still reading after five pages, I don't reject but request a partial. Many, MANY submissions I read don't make it past the first five pages. Some, I wish I could throw the computer across the room, some I fall asleep. You need a hook - it's one of the first rules of writing!

Submit, submit, submit. Literature tastes are subjective, sure. One editor may hate it, another love it. As UJ says, rejection is nature's way of telling you to write a better book.

I read about J. A. Konrath and his 500 rejections and three agents before publishing one word, and I have read J.A. Konrath. He is an excellent writer, and I think of all the excellent writers out there that will never go through the process that he did, myself included.

Joe is a heckuva businessman - and yet he went through all those rejections, probably rewrote, and STILL didn't go with PA. Think about that.

It is for all the writers good, bad and indifferent that Publish America is a godsend, because it means all of us unknowns are at least on equal footing, when it comes to the opportunity for having a book published, and for that Publish America has my commendation.

Why is it good for a bad writer? A bad writer can learn to become a good writer through rejection and critique, rather than going through the joy of being 'accepted' by PA and not realizing they need to write a better book! Good writers can do better than PA and get the distribution they're books deserve.
Carl, this is a silly statement.

Equal footing? How? The industry does NOT recognize PA books as credentials. Because they printed your book? If I ran by book through Lulu, does it give me equal footing?

PA is nothing more than a muddy slope. If you do actually make it to the top, Meiners and crew are waiting to shove you back down.

James D. Macdonald
08-28-2006, 08:19 PM
The investment cost per author must be substantial and amazes me that a company would risk so much for unknown writers with absolutely no guarantee of recovery.

I've gone over this before. Total cost to PA is around $300 per book, and they make that back (and more) on the author's first self-purchase (during the hurry-hurry-hurry 50% off period).

Christine N.
08-28-2006, 08:41 PM
Thank you, Jim, for the life of me I couldn't remember the figure.

PA is making about an 80% profit on each book.

Christine N.
08-28-2006, 08:51 PM
Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

They think they are better than the rest of us, and that their books should sell in the thousands. The truth is that our books are niche products that often sell fewer than a hundred copies (although some do sell considerably more) and are successful because of the total number of authors, not because one book does extremely well.

Fortunately, we no longer have to read posts by starry-eyed, wannabe authors, who think that their book deserves to become a best-seller.



Better than who? Just because they want their books on actual bookstore shelves, where they have at least A CHANCE at selling thousands, especially when backed by their publisher with their book in cataloges and with reviews in trade publications (or at least submitted for review??!?) I'm not better than anyone, nor has anyone here ever said as much, as far as I can see.

(sarcasm)Yeah, gee, who wants that? Not me.(/sarcasm)

Total number of poorly edited, high-priced books is better than a small number of GOOD books? Tell me the logic in that again? Oh, I see, PA makes all their money because they sap it from more people!

I haven't yet run across an author who doesn't want their book read. Since when is a children's book a 'niche project'??? The sale of children's books is a multi-million dollar industry, not niche!

I agree that there are many PA books that are, in fact, niche books, and probably would do very well with a small or niche publisher; IF they are written well enough.

I don't think many of the PA ship-jumpers had asprirations of literary stardom. They did, however, want to be treated in a proper manner and taken seriously by the rest of the world. You want to settle for PA - be my guest. Just don't drag down people who really want writing careers with you.

It bears repeating. Just because you have written a book does not automatically entitle you to publication. I know it sounds like a snobby, elitist thing to say, but think about it. If you just want a bound copy as a momento, go to Lulu. If you want to be read and respected, learn your craft and work hard, get the notice of someone who really thinks your work doesn't stink. Takes time, takes energy, takes work.

xhouseboy
08-29-2006, 02:59 PM
I am not naive enough to not know that there are major publishing houses that invest substantial amounts in a very select stable of authors; an author community that represents only one-half of one percent of all writers. I read the literary magazines and read what editors say about how they reject without getting past the first page and in some cases, the first paragraph.

Much the same deal as the select stable of sport's men or women. The talent is recognised and nurtured, and those with the right attitude work hard at further honing their talent. Those that don't make the grade either give up, or continue with their chosen sport as a hobby.

It's called life.

Christine N.
08-29-2006, 08:54 PM
From the thread explaining how books get on the bestseller list.

Now, keep in mind that these books are not yet PAID for which means the author is not paid.


WRONG! The author (more likely than no) has been paid an advance in the sum of several thousand dollars, based on what the publisher thinks will sell. An advance against royalties - it means that the author HAS INDEED been paid, and anything over the amount that the book does in fact earn will be paid at a later date.

If said book does NOT make the amount of money that has been paid in the advance, the author does NOT have to pay back the difference. That money is his to keep.

TracySutterer & GaryRogers
08-29-2006, 10:26 PM
Please excuse me for interrupting this discussion. I have to ask; has anyone on this forum signed with publishing houses such as: Random House, Farrar, Straus and Giroux / NY, G.P. PUTNAM'S SONS / Penguin Group, HarperCollinsPublishers, Bantam Books, etc?

If so, how are they treating you. In addition - can you give us some insight as to their operation, author / customer service, and royalty payments?

Just wondering - as usual.

Argile Stox

JulieB
08-30-2006, 12:47 AM
Now, keep in mind that these books are not yet PAID for which means the author is not paid.[/QUOTE]

::reaches for cloth to wipe keyboard and monitor::

I should know better than to have a beverage available when perusing this section of the board.

PA authors: That dollar you got was your advance.

SeanDSchaffer
08-31-2006, 08:04 PM
Published Author Role-Playing Game? Okay, maybe I'm just dense or slow, but I simply don't understand what this is all about. Why would someone go with PA or POD just to "play author" (whatever that means). It's like buying a counterfeit designer purse -- you know it's fake, other people know it's fake, so what's the point? Am I missing something here?


The problem is, MeowGirl, that many PA'ers don't know they're playing this game. That was one of my own issues when I signed with PublishAmerica. It took me roughly a year to realize I had not signed with a legitimate company. So the whole time I played the Published Author Role-Playing Game, I didn't even know I wasn't really an actual published author.

I think a lot of PA'ers have the same issue. They simply do not know yet that they've been had.

James D. Macdonald
08-31-2006, 08:52 PM
Please excuse me for interrupting this discussion. I have to ask; has anyone on this forum signed with publishing houses such as: Random House, Farrar, Straus and Giroux / NY, G.P. PUTNAM'S SONS / Penguin Group, HarperCollinsPublishers, Bantam Books, etc?

If so, how are they treating you. In addition - can you give us some insight as to their operation, author / customer service, and royalty payments?

Just wondering - as usual.

Argile Stox

Of that list I've only been published by HarperCollins. They're a big operation and get books onto bookshelves all over the country.

I have no idea how their customer service is -- I expect that bookstores in general are pretty happy with them. Their relationship with authors: pretty standard. Write a book, work with an editor, it's published. What's to say? Royalty payments are on cover price, paid twice a year (November and May). Rates vary, from 8% to 15%.

Popeyesays
08-31-2006, 09:13 PM
Please excuse me for interrupting this discussion. I have to ask; has anyone on this forum signed with publishing houses such as: Random House, Farrar, Straus and Giroux / NY, G.P. PUTNAM'S SONS / Penguin Group, HarperCollinsPublishers, Bantam Books, etc?

If so, how are they treating you. In addition - can you give us some insight as to their operation, author / customer service, and royalty payments?

Just wondering - as usual.

Argile Stox

The key thing to understand is that legitimate publishers do not consider their authors to be customers.

Customers are the people who buy the books, not the writers who publish with them.

The author/ publisher relations are conducted through the editor at the imprint or between the editor and the agent.

Regards,

Scott

Christine N.
09-02-2006, 12:47 AM
Here's a good one...

Jeffery is to be commended. He went against a stacked deck and from what I have read on other sites, more than upheld PA. The radio moderator is vehemently anti-PA, and the other caller as well.


I am not sure there is such a thing as a winner or loser in verbal jousting on a radio broadcast, but Jeff did have in his corner the fact that PA has published near 20,000 authors, and many with multiple books. That is a difficult statistic for any anti-PA person to overcome.



Our friend Carl is at it again. Read that whole passage quite carefully. "Anti-PA". Someone tell me why there aren't "Anti-Random House", "Anti-Tor" or even "Anti-Xlibris" people? Think about it, and ask yourself why, OH WHY, are a whole lot of people against PA?

Carl, the last statment makes no sense. I guess you've never heard the old axiom of "quality vs. quantity." Besides, a goodly number of those 20,000 authors no longer associate themselves with PA, for various reasons.

James D. Macdonald
09-02-2006, 01:24 AM
There are anti-XLibris people. Google on Xlibris + scam.

James D. Macdonald
09-02-2006, 01:25 AM
Oh, and did the recording of that broadcast ever get posted?

Christine N.
09-02-2006, 03:01 AM
Yeah, but is there a never-ending thread about it??
LOL At least Xlibris is honest about the fact they're a pay-to-publish outfit.

TwentyFour
09-06-2006, 01:52 AM
I'm doubting this will stay long on the PA board:

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: something we all need to know

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With checks in hand, we need to go out there and try harder this time. Don't you agree? but first, check this out. I think it explains everything in black and white and should resolve some issues.

http://www.fonerbooks.com/2005/08/does-publishamerica-really-publish.html
_________________



It may be praising PA but also gives the impression there is bad publicity on PA on the web for those who want to look.

Personally, had I never read a PA book then I would dismiss all this as some authors who have a vendetta against PA for some reason. BUT...having read a book or two, I got the immediate notion that since this book sucked and had numerous errors, the author being an A student in my class, then it must be the publishers fault. I may not be an expert on this in any way, but I have read alot of books and seen how they were written and how the publisher presents them. I have read some bad books but they were written well. I read some crappy stories but they were pretty much error free. I guess what I am saying is...I found out before hand how PA was just by the product they produced, it smelled fishy from the get go.

TwentyFour
09-06-2006, 01:53 AM
Oh, and did the recording of that broadcast ever get posted? Alien Enigma has a copy of it on his site I do believe, although I could not get it to load. He may have a copy he can post here?

SeanDSchaffer
09-06-2006, 11:45 AM
Here's a good one...



Our friend Carl is at it again. Read that whole passage quite carefully. "Anti-PA". Someone tell me why there aren't "Anti-Random House", "Anti-Tor" or even "Anti-Xlibris" people? Think about it, and ask yourself why, OH WHY, are a whole lot of people against PA?

Carl, the last statment makes no sense. I guess you've never heard the old axiom of "quality vs. quantity." Besides, a goodly number of those 20,000 authors no longer associate themselves with PA, for various reasons.


What amazes me about Carl's post, is that he's focusing on "Anti-PA". Why is this? Could it be that PA has made itself more important in its authors' minds than the authors themselves are? This has always bothered me, even when I was one of their 'fold'. Everything is PA, PA, PA. There is very little spoken about the authors as individual entities.

Carl, if you're reading this, take the time to think about this one fact: you are not pushing your own book half as much as you are pushing the company that is publishing it. Your hard work, both in your book and your marketing work, are being taken advantage of by a company that, IMO, has no vested interest in selling your work to readers. Does this not bother you to some extent? You're the author, and by God, you should be the one profiting from your hard work, not PA. They should be making money from selling your book, themselves, to readers around the world.

But instead, they're selling the majority of their authors' books, to their authors. Don't you find this just a little bit bizarre? When PA says your book is available for purchase in bookstores, answer yourself this question: why do you have to push your book yourself? For crying out loud, Carl, you did the hard work an author is supposed to do in writing and shopping the book around! Must you do all the other work too?

No, you shouldn't be. A writer's job is to write, not market a book. The marketing is the job of a marketing team within the publishing company, as I understand it (someone here please correct me if I'm wrong). If PA is paying you a pittance, it's not because you're not working hard enough. It's because their business model discourages the average reader (bookstores, also) from buying your book.

You can do so much better than PublishAmerica, people. Do as others here have suggested. Write a new, better book, and submit it to legitimate companies that will do their damndest to get your book read and in the process, sold to as many READERS as possible. Publishing is a business, and if you have a book a legitimate company thinks will sell, you'll never know what is possible if you never submit it to a real legitimate publisher or agent.

MadScientistMatt
09-06-2006, 06:06 PM
I wonder if Carl's motive is believing that if he defends PA enough, bookstores might stock his books.

astonwest
09-07-2006, 03:10 AM
I wonder if Carl's motive is believing that if he defends PA enough, bookstores might stock his books.Probably believes as his predecessor did, that if he defends PA enough, PA might actually give a d*** about him.

Christine N.
09-10-2006, 01:34 AM
Betty's back, and rambling...

Is ignorance bliss? What if I had known how the larger firms market books? What if I had known the relationship of the acquisition editor to the book and how those editors I mailed to must look beyond the pure editing process, and must consider if the book is good for their firm--the firm's list. What if I had known about publishing salespeople and marketers--those who sell books to bookstore chains--whose operating guide is how do we get more books like the bestsellers of last season? What recent bestsellers can we compare this book to?

What if I had been aware that the publishing industry, which produces in excess of 50,000 new titles annually and seems to imitate the role of the motion picture industry with the perpetual quest for the blockbusters that have failed? An industry that will publish any inane personality with a smidgen of celebrity, seeming not to understand they are publishing hardcover magazines. Would I have written the same book? It's difficult to know.

Did the foggy bottom of the publishing industry cause me to choose the path of least resistance, and by choosing the path of least resistance (Publish America), how much did that influence the writing? Did I give my best? Did Publish America publish my best effort? (I'm reminded of the sage who suddenly became aware that sinners wrote the Bible: how else would they know.).

Looking back, I now see that the book was not the best it could have been, not if I had sought outside scrutiny, research and advice. I came up against the barrier of good writing and chose not to break it. I took the path of least resistance, chose not to break from my comfortable circle, and did not write for the ages, but for a specific date in someone's cornfield. Maybe next time.


Maybe it's the sinus headache that's jabbing the left side of my brain, but this post (I snipped it) kind of went in circles. Is Carl saying he realizes he took the easy route? Is he regretting his decision to not do the homework?

I really want someone to tell me what this means, 'cause my head hurts too much to think about it.

Then we get this in reply..

Betty the question is not "Why are we here?" It is: "How did we ever get published?"....

The better question is "why are you so badly published?" How did PA get its claws into you? That's always my question, because I find the answers fascinating. I was misled, they answered first and no one else would take the book are the three I usually see, but I'm always interested.


Take your brilliant analysis about the process of publishing and getting published (the "line of least resistance" as you put it) and also think of it this way. A writer bangs his head for months and years trying in vain to get his manuscript read, looked at or responded to. All most writers gets is a card that says: "Sorry your work is not what we are looking for..." Or..."Sorry our agency does not have time to read your work. We are fully subscribed."

Oh, you mean he does what every other writer in the business does? He submits and submits and either gets an agent or publisher OR figures out he needs to write a better book? NO way!


And on it on it goes, until you get a letter from this new, outrageous publisher, Publish America, " We love your work. It needs to be published."

You and everyone else who submitted that day until the quota is filled.


And there you are, a published author along side the biggest and most powerful publishers in the world.

I don't even know what to say about this. There are no words. Maybe Jim has some.


Writing is a roll of the dice, to say the least.

Now this is right on the money. It IS a subjective business - and YOU have to understand that when you submit. Maybe you caught the editor on a bad day, or they weren't particularly in tune with your work. So you send again and again until you do find someone who does like it.

I'm pretty tired of this attitude that someone's written a book, for fun maybe, and decided that the rest of it is too much work, that they want it NOW. It really irritates me, because I take the business seriously. I did the homework, I got the critiques, I did the rewrites, I sent the submissions and collected the rejection slips. I listen when agents give me feedback, even when they say no because they just didn't love it. I've read submissions I just don't love, even though they're well written. Get off your butts and do it right, or go home. Maybe I'm being an 'elitist snob' - at this point I don't much care.

If your work isn't up to snuff, a) work on it until it is, using all the channels available to find out how to make it better, b) write a better book (which most writers do anyway) or c) decide you don't have what it takes to be a writer and just write for your own amusement. Nothing wrong with that. Don't blame the agents and publishers because your book isn't what they think will sell. That's their business and their business is to know what will sell. To MAKE MONEY by selling BOOKS. That's the reality, get over it.

PA is NOT giving anyone a chance, only taking them away.



You, Betty, and all of us at Publish America have come up with 7s and 11s on the first roll. Take it as far as you can and enjoy the "line of least resistance"...My thoughts on this nice day...

More like aces and eights in cards - deadman's hand.

If I'm being too snarky, someone stop me, but this sense of entitlement to have your words published because you've put them on a page is tiresome. And the two or three authors who continually beat the 'publishers and agents don't get my work' horse are annoying.

I have sympathy for every PA author who was taken, believing they were the real deal. I will do everything I personally can to help those who want it.

My sympathy for those who make excuses is wearing thin.

SeanDSchaffer
09-10-2006, 01:57 AM
If I'm being too snarky, someone stop me, but this sense of entitlement to have your words published because you've put them on a page is tiresome. And the two or three authors who continually beat the 'publishers and agents don't get my work' horse are annoying.

I think part of the sense of entitlement could come in part from a commercial I used to watch, from, I believe it was Xerox Company. It showed a college professor giving a lecture on publishing. The first words in the commercial were, "Of course everybody has the RIGHT to be published, but the odds are against you."

At least in my own case, those words stuck in my mind for quite some time. Ironically, if I'm not mistaken, the commercial had to do with digital printing technology, which, of course, is the technology used in the POD business model.

Am I blaming Xerox for this sense of entitlement? No, I'm not. I'm simply stating that there is a popular misconception that everyone has the right to be published. That, I think, is where many PA'ers (I know I was like this for a long time) get their sense of entitlement.

I honestly believe it's nothing more than a misconception, brought about by popular belief.


And are you being too snarky? Personally, I don't think you're any bit snarkier than you ever were before. If it gets too bad, I'm sure someone will tell you.

:)

Christine N.
09-10-2006, 02:32 AM
Gee, thanks Sean. LOL.

I can understand where it comes from. I really can. It's that 'what do you MEAN my words aren't golden?" syndrome. I had it once. But never did I assume that my first book was ever good enough to be published. Which was why I joined Critters, and found a wonderful mentor there named David, I think his name was, who was kind enough to go through my mess and help me sort it all out.

I STILL wasn't sure - so I submitted. I racked up the rejections. When my publisher made me an offer, I was really excited. Just like I'm sure PA authors are. BUT, I researched every single agent and publisher I submitted to. Critically.

Most writers I know have doubts about their work. Even the multi-published ones. All the time. And in all the submissions I've ever rejected, only ONE has ever come back with a snarky reply. The rest, of those that replied at all, were all very gracious.

I liken some of the PA poster's attitudes to the person who looks at Michelangelo's David and says "I could do that". Then goes to Home Depot for a block of marble and a chisel. Sure, some may have innate talent, but without training and practice, you're not gonna get a masterpiece. Then they blame the art world that no one will give them a chance.

And of course I mean 'you' in the global sense of the word. If my second book wasn't as good or better than my first, I would expect my publisher to reject it. I also would expect a rejection if my book wasn't selling well. Again, publishers are not not-for-profit (is that a double negative?); they are a business and want to make money, to sell books.

ETA: I don't want this to sound the way it's coming out. I'm not any wonderful, all-knowing publishing guru. I have a trunk novel somewhere too. I just was able to recognize it for the crap it was. And that's kind of my point. Most writers junk their first books.

Christine N.
09-10-2006, 02:47 AM
I'm a quoting maniac today, aren't I? There's just so much good stuff!

[It has been my experience that getting a good agent is harder than finding a good publisher. Beware also, because there seems to be a lot of shysters out there these days. Just as you should never pay a publisher any up front money, never send any money to anyone claiming to be an agent.

The irony is deafening.


It appears to me that all of the better agents these days don't want to be approached by authors. Instead they chase only authors with proven track records and try to undermine each other. Today they are more like sports agents than the literary agents of yesterday.


The misinformation abounds. You're not looking in the right places. Yes, some agents have full lists, are concentrating on selling the current clients' work, and some only take submissions by referral, but there are litereally hundreds of agents out there, looking for NEW authors. Not already published, not proven sellers, but new. First-time authors are published every day. All the time. Agents even represent a few of them.

Poaching clients from one another, well, most agents I've spoken with think that's just not right, and would never stoop to that practice. It's more than frowned upon. Agents and authors do part ways, it happens when one or both parties just feel the job's not getting done. The author looks for a new agent.

Just trying to help.

James D. Macdonald
09-10-2006, 04:30 AM
And there you are, a published author along side the biggest and most powerful publishers in the world.

I don't even know what to say about this. There are no words. Maybe Jim has some.

No, dude, you aren't "alongside" anyone. When I look at my books in the bookstore, when I look to the right and to the left of my book, I don't see a PA book on the shelf beside them. I don't worry about your "competition" because you aren't competing. You didn't even get to the start line.

That's the sad thing. Somewhere between 200 and 2,000 PA books are probably good enough that they could have been contenders.

spike
09-10-2006, 07:23 PM
The misinformation abounds. You're not looking in the right places. Yes, some agents have full lists, are concentrating on selling the current clients' work, and some only take submissions by referral, but there are litereally hundreds of agents out there, looking for NEW authors. Not already published, not proven sellers, but new. First-time authors are published every day. All the time. Agents even represent a few of them.


Just trying to help.

On that same thread:

Maybe there are honest agents out there, if you look, maybe you'll find one. But as for me, I don't know what they can do that I can't do myself.

Emphasis mine. Doesn't that just sum up the PA authors?

TwentyFour
09-10-2006, 07:26 PM
Based upon stats from my royalty checks, books I've bought and sold myself, and those that I know B&N stores have bought (as told to me by customer relations managers), I've sold a little over 1,000 books in my first year.

But, I can tell you, marketing has been costly. So, the gap between royalties and sales on the plus side and costs on the other, the gap is still sizable. To break even, I'd have to sell, probably, about 4,000 books.

Still lots of work to be done...
Sometimes all the work will sell your books but it doesn't cover what you paid for the initial marketing.

Joanna_S
09-11-2006, 12:06 PM
In a discussion about sales, a PA booster says that new authors sell, on average "500 books" a year. Someone posits that the number must be for other publishers, and not PA authors. (My own thought is, 500 books? 5,000 books, maybe, and that's for a small publisher)

This is the answer from the PA booster, emphasis mine:

I tend to agree with you that the number is actually lower, but I also belive that PA depends on what the author orders to help them make their money.

Many authors do not want to order copies of their own books, and that is sad. The book is an extenstion of yourself, and hopefully you will think enough of yourself and what you have written to promote the work.

Some people believe that everyone will run to the bookstore in mas and purchase their book, and this is not reality. We are unknowns in an oversaturated market, why do we think that someone, unless they know us will buy a book from an unknown author.

The same old nonsense "I know how publishing works" answers with the surprising bit of reality that PA depends on them buying their own books. If only he could wake up and understand his own words. But then, one would have to understand how publishing really works to see why there's something so very wrong in PAland.

-- Joanna

triceretops
09-11-2006, 01:14 PM
FROM THE PAMB:


With the book of literary agents having at least ten-thousand entries, I do not have the time, patience or funding to try to find my perfect match. With Publish America, while I don't have an agent, I sure am having a fantastic time going through the process of getting a book published and in my mind, I certainly think that is the better way to go.

AND THIS ONE:

It appears to me that all of the better agents these days don't want to be approached by authors. Instead they chase only authors with proven track records and try to undermine each other. Today they are more like sports agents than the literary agents of yesterday.
You may, however, find someone who is ernestly looking for the next Hemingway, and I wish you luck. I gave up.

I dunno...this just boggles my mind. One is complaining about not having the time and funding to find an agent. Gak! It costs an email and about 20 seconds to send a query. I think that's free, last time I checked.

Oh, yeah, agents don't want to be approached by authors. Only by celebs, and I'll bet they have back-alley drunken fights over them too.
Yeah, agents undermine each other everyday--stealing clients, underhanded deals, smoke and mirrors, ripping off plots, and other dispicable things.

Tri

Christine N.
09-11-2006, 03:34 PM
Why would i want to order copies of my own book when I get a fair few from my publisher for free?

Sigh. Ok, well, I think that many authors might order a copy or two if they run out of authors copies - and most publishers give a good discount and some even count it against royalties.

Most publishers have it in their contract that those copies are NOT for resale. PA COUNTS on the authors reselling - it saves them from having to hire an actual sales team.

xhouseboy
09-11-2006, 04:18 PM
We are unknowns in an oversaturated market, why do we think that someone, unless they know us will buy a book from an unknown author.

It might help if your publisher followed the tried and tested method of getting your book into a bookstore. Then someone might just pick it up, get hooked on the first few pages and purchase it.

Or is that too radical.

James D. Macdonald
09-11-2006, 05:11 PM
...why do we think that someone, unless they know us will buy a book from an unknown author.

Because it happens every day.

Every single multi-published author was unknown once. (The celebrities have a tiny minority of the titles on the shelf.)

Have you, personally, ever gone into a bookstore and bought a book by someone you've never heard of? Of course you have! Now, have you, personally, ever bought a book from an author who approached you in the food court of a mall? No, I didn't think so.

Sheryl Nantus
09-11-2006, 05:35 PM
typical comments from misinformed, uninformed people who shouldn't be allowed to post anything to do with publishing.

the ignorance is staggering.

LloydBrown
09-11-2006, 06:15 PM
One word of caution, a good agent expects you to produce. Not just now and then but on a regular basis. Many won't allow you to spend time blogging or posting on message boards. They do monitor how you're spending your time but they can open doors that otherwise are closed and take care of some of the annoying details so you can keep doing the one thing that earns money for them - writing.

Where do they get these ideas? You can write as little or as much as you want. Monitoring a writer's time? WTF?

Popeyesays
09-11-2006, 07:08 PM
Quote: "We are unknowns in an oversaturated market, why do we think that someone, unless they know us will buy a book from an unknown author."

This is circular reasoning. (1)My book deserves to be published.
(2) The mainstream publishers won't publish my book.
(3) The market must be oversaturated if they won't publish my book
(4) Yet my book deserves to be published.

If the reason that the mainstream industry takes few books is because the market is saturate, what chance does a PA book have of success.

Vanity publishing is no test of "readability" and story.

Regards,
Scott

James D. Macdonald
09-11-2006, 07:12 PM
Many won't allow you to spend time blogging or posting on message boards.

Agents have better things to do with their time.

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-11-2006, 08:57 PM
By the grumpy old man of the PS board:
One word of caution, a good agent expects you to produce. Not just now and then but on a regular basis. Many won't allow you to spend time blogging or posting on message boards. They do monitor how you're spending your time but they can open doors that otherwise are closed and take care of some of the annoying details so you can keep doing the one thing that earns money for them - writing.

Does anyone know of an agent with enough free time to cyberstalk the authors they rep?

Caro
09-11-2006, 09:11 PM
Many won't allow you to spend time blogging or posting on message boards.

::blink:: Then what about the notes from the last RWA conference where agents talked about how important a web presence is these days?

The mind boggles.

Christine N.
09-11-2006, 11:22 PM
Ugh. Agents WANT you to post on blogs, and have an internet presence. Go read Miss Snark - all that adds up to branding. Agents WANT your name in as many places as possible. So does your publisher and their marketing department.

They have a product with your name on it. It would be nice if your own websites came up when someone googled your name.

Ack. Ack. Ack. What agents are these people talking to??? Agents are spending their time reading subs, sending manusripts to editors, meeting with editor... SELLING BOOKS. They don't have the time nor the energy to babysit their clients.

Sheesh.

Sheryl Nantus
09-11-2006, 11:26 PM
they're not talking to ANYONE.

they're just deluding themselves that they've made the right choice by going with PA.

spike
09-12-2006, 04:21 AM
Once you obtain an agent, that agent has to sell. Ah, there's the rub. Many a manuscript languishes on the agent's shelf as said agent ministers to authors who stand a better chance of popularity.


A better chance at popularity? Heavens forbid, an agent would spend time with a mss that will sell!

What does Uncle Jim always say? Write a better book.

astonwest
09-12-2006, 04:25 AM
I imagine agents don't want you spending time on blogs and message boards when you're supposed to be sending in the final revision of a manuscript that was due at the publisher a week ago...

Christine N.
09-12-2006, 04:56 AM
Well, yeah, of course you have to make deadlines. PA even gives deadlines for things. But no agent monitors your free time or controls your life.

I just don't know where they come up with this stuff! And the worst part is that the person who said that supposedly has years of experience in publishing. Taken at face value, that is likely to get other PA authors to believe him. Look deeper - newspaper publishing. Journalism. Different animal altogether from fiction/book publishing.

triceretops
09-12-2006, 04:59 AM
Bookstores are so last-century.

Answer:

You are correct in your statement. Most people are too busy to go to a bookstore most people purchase items and pay bills online.

Our books are already on the shelves in the bookstores because we are online. Look at amazon our books are listed there but yet they dont have a "brick and mortar" store for someone to walk into and purchase one, but yet they have the books on their shelves.

This is the sour grape syndrome taking on an entirely new dimension and, still, it does not make sense. Neither comment.

Tri

SeanDSchaffer
09-12-2006, 05:12 AM
Most people are too busy to go to a bookstore most people purchase items and pay bills online.






The worst part about all this misinformation is, just how easy it is for someone who does not know the business (I fell into this trap myself when I was on the PAMB) to believe this nonsense.

Sure, people do pay their bills online, and people do like to buy books online. But frankly, if bookstores are on the decline, then why are there so many mega-bookstores (brick-and-mortar) all over the place? Some are like miniature malls, with coffee shops and bistros built into them. And the majority of these coffee shops and bistros that I have seen are not owned or operated by the bookstore itself.

In the Portland (Oregon) area there are several locations of the Powell's Bookstore, as well as several locations of Barnes & Noble, and I know of at least one Borders in downtown Portland. Of the three companies I mentioned, every one of them has in the larger stores in my area, businesses working inside them and independently of the bookstores, that thrive on customers in the bookstores!

My point is that if these people would open their eyes and look at the reality that abounds all around them, they would see that bookstores are not suffering nearly as much as people on the PAMB claim they are. The fact of the matter is, more people prefer to go to a bookstore and buy their book, and go home with the book in hand, able to read it immediately, than want to wait seven to ten days to get a book (six to eight weeks to get a PublishAmerica book) from an online seller.

The misinformation over there is so thick, I can see where people over there would get the wrong idea about how the business works.

Christine N.
09-12-2006, 05:19 AM
I buy quite a few books on line. But they are almost exclusively books I know I'm looking for, by authors I already know, OR non-fiction that I search for by catagory.

I still bought a pile of books at a real bookstore, many I hadn't heard of before and got because I spied them on the shelves. That's the downfall of online - you can't browse a shelf full of covers and pick one out and see it.

If nobody knows your book is out there, nobody will look for it.

spike
09-12-2006, 04:48 PM
I know AW requires members to respect other authors, but geezu! But this is terrible advice.

In working with and for numerous editors since 1946 my advice is always avoid them when possible unless you are referring to a good city editor at a newspaper. Why would anyone trust an editor they have never met at a company in a distant city? I have had a number of errors in short stories that were inserted by editors. If you are confident that you are a writer you shouldn't want a stranger messing with your work.

SeanDSchaffer
09-12-2006, 07:52 PM
I know AW requires members to respect other authors, but geezu! But this is terrible advice.


Methinks the only person disrespecting their fellow authors in that post is the PAMB member. When that person advises his or her fellow authors to not let an editor touch their work, that is a high form of disrespect. Editors know what is going to sell better than does the writer. That's why editors work for publishing houses, and writers work for themselves.

The kind of advice you mentioned, from the PAMB, is the highest form of disrespect, because it misinforms (like much of the advice does over there) other writers.

xhouseboy
09-12-2006, 09:05 PM
The kind of advice you mentioned, from the PAMB, is the highest form of disrespect, because it misinforms (like much of the advice does over there) other writers.

It's also got to the stage where one can view a quoted post, and know just who's been dishing out the advice. There's about three authors over at PA who are easily identifiable by the misinformation they spread around.

ETA: just went over and checked. I guessed right. It's the guy I call the Civil War veteran.

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-12-2006, 09:19 PM
In working with and for numerous editors since 1946 my advice is always avoid them when possible unless you are referring to a good city editor at a newspaper.

Spoken like somone with no experience in long-distance collaborations.

Why would anyone trust an editor they have never met at a company in a distant city?
Uhhhhh ... because a multi-million dollar a year publishing line trusts that editor not to screw up their investment in me?


If you are confident that you are a writer you shouldn't want a stranger messing with your work.
An author who resists editing is an author who thinks they have nothing left to learn ...

Christine N.
09-12-2006, 10:00 PM
More rubbish from the same source. (runs to check.. yep, same person)

This guy has NO experience in the BOOK publishing industry. NO experience with fiction outside of magazines and and no publishing experience outside of newspapers.

Editors are your friends, and are only EVER looking out for the best interests of the book. YOU, as the writer, have to be willing to let go of your ego and be willing to listen to another person who is looking at your work more objectively than you can.

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish. This person has given nothing but misinformation and bad advice lately, all because he's comparing apples and oranges.

Oh, a good city editor is better than a good book editor? Yikes.

A caveat - of course being edited badly, like PA, is almost better than not being edited at all. But most real publishing houses don't hire shlubs to do their editing, so you're pretty safe there.

NancyMehl
09-13-2006, 01:13 AM
An author who resists editing is an author who thinks they have nothing left to learn ...

An author who resists editing is an author who better get used to self-publishing....

Nancy

NancyMehl
09-13-2006, 01:20 AM
Having worked with an editor at a large newspaper for over three years, AND having worked with editors associated with various book publishers, I can say without a doubt that "those two dogs run different."

They are absolutely NOT the same thing.

Whoever said that has no idea what they're talking about.

Nancy

James D. Macdonald
09-13-2006, 01:38 AM
However, resisting getting edited by PA's t/r/a/i/n/e/d/ m/o/n/k/e/y/s/ editors is a good idea.

Arkie
09-13-2006, 03:28 AM
However, resisting getting edited by PA's t/r/a/i/n/e/d/ m/o/n/k/e/y/s/ editors is a good idea.

I agree. In my case, I edited my ms 13 times, forward, backward and sideways. I looked at that manuscript everyway possible, and the same thing with the proofs; however, when I received my two copies and opened the book, the first thing I found was an error.

I don't know who they hire to pose as editors, but I doubt, other than completing the required college English courses (if that), those personnel have no editing qualifications in the strict sense of the word, and I can state unequivically mine did not know the difference in two, too and to.

In the process of putting books together and getting them printer ready, through computer glitches or whatever, errors are often inserted and sometimes in strange places. I had the word "whom" inserted in an indention. The word had absolutely nothing to do with the sentence preceding or following, and it was not in the final proofs I submitted.

I think my greatest disappointment with the company was the lack of editing expertise, and moreso, the lack of pride demonstrated by their willingness to print a substandard book, and unwillingness to make changes, when brought to their attention.

Saundra Julian
09-14-2006, 04:34 PM
Another pearl of wisdom from the PAMB...

Some doubt the statement I'm fixing to make, usually it's those who are published with bigger publishing houses. There is a conspiracy to keep down up and coming authors. Let's just face the facts. Unless you are proven to be a big seller for a large house and promote an agenda, they won't even look at your stuff. I get tired of the propoganda put out by certain sites that you only need to write a good book. That's bogus. The people who make the decisions stay around for decades and they don't want change. If they wanted change, they would invest in new ideas and the such.

How many fake legal cases can the market stand? How many overly used adjective makers will the big houses publish? The stuff that floods the market is all the same. If you've read one Templar book, you've read them all. If you read one Sci-Fi story, you already know the basis of all others. In Sci-Fi, there are usually bounty hunters, a galactic federation, a war of some kind, and it's the same old stuff. I thought part of being an author was having creativity. Star Wars has come and gone. Do a service to your readers, do something new.

Guess someone needs to tell the Sci-Fi authors they are wasting their time writing a new book as "they're all the same old stuff!"

Guess the rest of us might as well give up too!

spike
09-14-2006, 04:50 PM
Another pearl of wisdom from the PAMB...

Some doubt the statement I'm fixing to make, usually it's those who are published with bigger publishing houses. There is a conspiracy to keep down up and coming authors. Let's just face the facts. Unless you are proven to be a big seller for a large house and promote an agenda, they won't even look at your stuff. I get tired of the propoganda put out by certain sites that you only need to write a good book. That's bogus. The people who make the decisions stay around for decades and they don't want change. If they wanted change, they would invest in new ideas and the such.

How many fake legal cases can the market stand? How many overly used adjective makers will the big houses publish? The stuff that floods the market is all the same. If you've read one Templar book, you've read them all. If you read one Sci-Fi story, you already know the basis of all others. In Sci-Fi, there are usually bounty hunters, a galactic federation, a war of some kind, and it's the same old stuff. I thought part of being an author was having creativity. Star Wars has come and gone. Do a service to your readers, do something new.

Guess someone needs to tell the Sci-Fi authors they are wasting their time writing a new book as "they're all the same old stuff!"

Guess the rest of us might as well give up too!

He is right about one thing. Publishers don't want change. They want to keep publishing books that will sell.

Bubastes
09-14-2006, 05:28 PM
He is right about one thing. Publishers don't want change. They want to keep publishing books that will sell.

Oh gee, what a coincidence. So do writers!

James D. Macdonald
09-14-2006, 06:02 PM
Some doubt the statement I'm fixing to make....

Doubt it? I'm going to call bullsh!t on it.

About 20% of the novels in bookstores this year were first novels.

(Oh, and Jeffery? How many copies of your own book did you buy? I know you didn't have to, but how many did you? And how many have sold? Any to someone you didn't know by name?)

Eric Summers
09-14-2006, 07:47 PM
Another pearl of wisdom from the PAMB...

If you read one Sci-Fi story, you already know the basis of all others. In Sci-Fi, there are usually bounty hunters, a galactic federation, a war of some kind, and it's the same old stuff. I thought part of being an author was having creativity. Star Wars has come and gone. Do a service to your readers, do something new.

Guess someone needs to tell the Sci-Fi authors they are wasting their time writing a new book as "they're all the same old stuff!"



That made me laugh. Sci-Fi has taken such a huge turn from the old space opera formulas that the books of today would not even be classified as Sci-Fi 20 years ago I bet.

One only has to look at the bestseller "House of Leaves" (the author's debut novel) to see that the myth of "the publishers don't want to take any chances on new authors" is total crap. Here is a book by a NEW writer that featured (among other things) 3 seperate storylines told at once, pages with as few as ONE single word on them, pages where the type was laid out in steps, pyramids, or other shapes, footnotes that ran of for dozens of pages BACKWARDS through the book, etc, etc. You don't even have to READ House of Leaves, just 1 minute flipping through it at your bookstore will show you that it is beyond a doubt not just "the same old thing".

James D. Macdonald
09-14-2006, 08:48 PM
Nah, Eric. Jeffery isn't talking about (and doesn't know anything about) SF (or "Sci-Fi" as he's pleased to call it). Those are all personal attacks against me. He's still pouting after I kicked his rump in that radio debate.

Bubastes
09-14-2006, 09:06 PM
Nah, Eric. Jeffery isn't talking about (and doesn't know anything about) SF (or "Sci-Fi" as he's pleased to call it). Those are all personal attacks against me. He's still pouting after I kicked his rump in that radio debate.

Oh, do tell! I haven't heard about this one.

SeanDSchaffer
09-14-2006, 09:24 PM
Nah, Eric. Jeffery isn't talking about (and doesn't know anything about) SF (or "Sci-Fi" as he's pleased to call it). Those are all personal attacks against me. He's still pouting after I kicked his rump in that radio debate.


My guess is that he is also getting this information from PA itself. Probably from the same tired old line that produced the classic worst-book-scenario, Atlanta Nights.

triceretops
09-16-2006, 04:10 AM
I was daydreaming today wandering how to make PA wealthy when suddenly a wacky idea came to mind. After careful research I figured out that PA makes money off of the books they sale, then why not try to sell as many books as possible. PA has a treasure trove of books and authors. Why not bulk mail their titles to residents across the United States for purchase, much like double day book club. Invest a little reap a lot. Like I said, just daydreaming.

PA is already wealthy...off you. It does not take CAREFUL research to know that a publisher has to sell books to stay afloat. They are not going to spend the money on bulk mail to send out titles (books?) or media kits to outlets, with the hope of selling them. They know the odds against this--the percentages don't pay off.

Tri

PVish
09-16-2006, 04:29 AM
From http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16612:
Why not bulk mail their titles to residents across the United States for purchase, much like double day book club.

Yeah, like we need more junk mail. Today I threw two "book club" offers into the trash.

If PA put all its 20,000 titles (including the ones they released) into a catalogue, can you imagine the weight of that sucker?

If PA really wanted to sell books to other than its authors, it might make the PA bookstore a bit easier to use or at least have a toll-free number for buyers to use when they order. But that would require effort--and money to pay someone to answer the phone, etc.

SeanDSchaffer
09-16-2006, 09:24 AM
If PA really wanted to sell books to other than its authors, it might make the PA bookstore a bit easier to use or at least have a toll-free number for buyers to use when they order. But that would require effort--and money to pay someone to answer the phone, etc.


My Emphasis.


I think they used to have a toll-free number for ordering....for the authors to use. I don't think that the average person could order using that number, though.

astonwest
09-17-2006, 05:23 AM
...or at least have a toll-free number for buyers to use when they order.They used to have a toll-free number.
I believe they got rid of it because all of their authors were calling all the time to complain...not sure how costs are calculated for a toll-free number, but my guess is that it's based on how many calls you field.

astonwest
09-17-2006, 05:26 AM
I don't think that the average person could order using that number, though.I think anyone who knew that the number existed could order with that number. Unfortunately, the only people who knew about it were authors and anyone the authors told.

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-18-2006, 01:58 AM
Folks: here's why PA is doing such a disservice to its authors. Real publishers, even small presses, can get your books into the distribution channels where the titles will be put in front of buyers from libraries and bookstores.

PA leaves its authors slogging through the swamps, chained to a onesy-twosy publishing method that guarantees they can't get into the channel and onto the same boat as the authors who have real publishers. They are trying to create an alternate marketing channel, for an overpriced product of variable quality.

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:41 pm
Post subject: PA MARKETING IDEA?

"I was daydreaming today wandering how to make PA wealthy when suddenly a wacky idea came to mind. After careful research I figured out that PA makes money off of the books they sale, then why not try to sell as many books as possible. PA has a treasure trove of books and authors. Why not bulk mail their titles to residents across the United States for purchase, much like double day book club."
***********
"Nevertheless, I think your idea could work, if PA, or a large group of PA authors who wanted to pool their resources, [B]could get their hands on lists of people who have demonstrated a favorable pattern of behavour by ordered a certain amount of books online during the past year.

In fact, with the way PA has been slighted on the promotional end of the industry, I'm suprised they haven't tried this themselves. Cut out all those middlemen who pay them little respect and go directly to the paying customer. They certainly have enough titles with a wide enough range of interests.

They already have changed the way the publishing industry does business with authors, now it is time for them to change the way the promotional end of the business is conducted, for their benefit and the benefit of the thousands of authors they have published."

Christine N.
09-18-2006, 02:54 AM
Yeah, "PA has been slighted on the promotional end of the industry."

Like they try. Sigh.

NancyMehl
09-19-2006, 06:27 PM
Here's another interesting discussion:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16677

Nancy

James D. Macdonald
09-19-2006, 08:14 PM
Ah, I see it's time for the Let's Do a Catalog! and the Let's Do a Bookclub! ideas to float up on the PAMB. Happens every year or so, whenever the old crop of authors that tried and failed vanishes and a brand new crop all starry-eyed arrives.

Christine N.
09-19-2006, 08:19 PM
yeah, and whatever happened to the 200 Authors book? Haven't heard from the guy who came up with that one in a while. What was his name? The theory of everything guy, right?

The ideas come and go, and I'll bet PA made a pretty penny off of that venture, you know at least some of the authors bought it.

rekirts
09-19-2006, 08:24 PM
From the PAMB re: the 'experiment' of making the books returnable:

I will give it a try. I think this experiment has been very success because if it wasn’t I believe it would have been cancelled by now.
A success for PA, yes, because bookstore still won't put PA books on their shelves and the authors still can't sell books without buying thier own. A success for the authors? Not on your life.

Eric Summers
09-19-2006, 08:36 PM
yeah, and whatever happened to the 200 Authors book? Haven't heard from the guy who came up with that one in a while. What was his name? The theory of everything guy, right?

The ideas come and go, and I'll bet PA made a pretty penny off of that venture, you know at least some of the authors bought it.

JC Keohane was his name, he compiled the "200 Authors and How They Were Published (http://www.amazon.com/200-Authors-They-Were-Published/dp/1413786464)" book. Like all 456 page softcover books, this one is "competitively priced" at a mere $29.95*

*Note I am not knocking John for the price, we all know who is responsible for that!

TwentyFour
09-19-2006, 09:10 PM
I'm sure that was a big seller! A two hundred author catalog of unknowns and the author sports it from one store to another to show they really have been published. The guy at the counter looks at it, smiles...and says:

...no thanks buddy...

then the author goes off on the guy. Buy my book! Stock my book! I'm a real author with the best publishing house in the good ole U..S..of A! I'll be back everyday with my homemade bookmarks, tablecloth, and cookies for a signing party...

The store owners love these guys!

To be honest, we have only had one PA book publisher to set up a signing in our town. The stores that let her in: the two she worked for and neither were book stores. One a grocery store, the other was a clothing store...it would appear that PA isn't a hit in my town!

Christine N.
09-19-2006, 09:27 PM
JC Keohane was his name, he compiled the "200 Authors and How They Were Published (http://www.amazon.com/200-Authors-They-Were-Published/dp/1413786464)" book. Like all 456 page softcover books, this one is "competitively priced" at a mere $29.95*

*Note I am not knocking John for the price, we all know who is responsible for that!


Oi, the four stellar reviews of this silly thing make my head hurt. Who ever heard of reviewing a catalog?

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-19-2006, 11:07 PM
After a post where the 5% discount and 10% restocking fee (meaning that the bookstore LOSES money on every return to Ingram) is mentioned.

"I wouldn’t worry about it to much because not all books ordered will sell and the store have to restock their inventory. Returning books is just a part of the business. There are far more books from other authors that are returned than a PA book. We are in a great position."

Great? 5% discount on books that are already twice the usual price is not great. Returnable books that bookstores will not order because they have to pay a restocking fee that is bigger than the discount they get from the publisher is not great.

It's great at discouraging sales through the normal channels, which must make the publisher's life easier. It must be a horrible bother to Tor and Harlequin to have to track all those thousands of books through all those bookstores.

astonwest
09-20-2006, 02:47 AM
Here's another interesting discussion:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16677

Nancy
Frankly, I'm surprised PA has allowed it to stay up as long as it has been, considering it points out the facts (complete with firsthand accounts from a bookstore) of the returnability scam.

Eric Summers
09-20-2006, 06:15 PM
Like most other "traditional publishers", the PAMB's now feature a "Marketing Tips" forum so authors can discuss how to sell their books (since PA won't do it for them).

Christine N.
09-20-2006, 07:33 PM
Yeah, I saw that this morning, and it kind of made me sick. I mean, my publisher's forum has a PR forum too, but mostly it's just to ask the PR/marketing person questions, not bounce silly ideas around.

Sassenach
09-20-2006, 07:48 PM
It'll make the participants feel warm and fuzzy toward PA, and make it seem as if they are doing something. It's easy to lie or misrepresent on the PAMB. Even the most outlandish claims are rarely challenged. [e.g., the guy who claimed to encounter 10 [!] people carrying copies of his poetry book and seeking autographs, while he and his co-workers were meeting at a local restaurant.

LloydBrown
09-20-2006, 08:50 PM
Hey, this won't last long: the new folder allows for guest log-in and posting.

Bubastes
09-20-2006, 09:07 PM
This may be a bit OT, but can someone explain to me why PA writers always list the ISBN below or next to the book title? What's the big deal? True published authors don't seem to do that, ever.

LloydBrown
09-20-2006, 09:16 PM
This may be a bit OT, but can someone explain to me why PA writers always list the ISBN below or next to the book title?

So that you can order their book. It's a desperate hope that somewhere, somebody will buy it.

Christine N.
09-20-2006, 09:31 PM
Actually, the PR person from my publisher told me to always put the ISBN next to the title in any piece of promotional material I send out. Like e-mails to places I want to make an appearance, bookmarks, business cards, PR's, that sort of thing. She put it next to the title in the media packets too, in several locations, because that's how most book shops, libraries and schools order books.

I don't put it in my signature on forums or in correspondence type e-mail, because I put my website link there, and that will give the ISBN. The average joe looks up books by title and/or author name.

Bubastes
09-20-2006, 09:33 PM
Actually, the PR person from my publisher told me to always put the ISBN next to the title in any piece of promotional material I send out. Like e-mails to places I want to make an appearance, bookmarks, business cards, PR's, that sort of thing. I don't put it in my signature on forums or in correspondence type e-mail, because I put my website link there, and that will give the ISBN.

Thanks for the clarification.

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-21-2006, 01:55 AM
Goooooooood Moooooorning PublishAmerica Lambkin! This is your wake-up call! You're being shorn by the publisher you chose.

From the first moment of contact they wanted my book and waited literally years to get. it.

Of course they were willing to wait. You are part of their cash flow, and you are their best customer for your book.

This is vanity press, on the installment plan. Instead of taking a chunk of cash up front from the wannabe author, PA takes it from a bit at a time, with every book sale. That's the real magic of POD for PA: the cost of running a vanity press has never been lower ... low enough that they can accept thousands of authors, ask no up-front fees, and still make a couple hundred bucks profit per author.

Real publishers make money selling books to people the authors don't know and will never meet ... and real publishers sell thousands of books. PublishAmerica makes money selling a few dozens of books to the author, the author's friends and family, and seldom makes sales to people outside the author's immediate sphere of influence.


I wish I could do publicity for them. It makes me cross that their detractors are so dedicated to bad- mouthing them.

If all you want is a book in your hands, and a few copies for friends and family ... lulu.com can deliver it better and cheaper than PA. LuLu won't tie the book into a seven year contract and LuLu won't tell you to shape up or ship out if you criticize them. To my knowledge, no one has ever been banned from the LuLu forums for what they said about LuLu. Odd that ... a vanity press named for a comic book character is more tolerant of dissent than the wrapped-in-the-flag vanity press named for a major country.

If you have dreams of being a nationally known author, with books on shelves in libraries and bookstores all over the USA, it's not going to happen. The harsh reality is that PA has stacked the deck agains you ever selling more than a few dozen books. The prices PA sets are way too high for the market, the discounts they allow are way too low to make them stockable, and their astoundingly low acceptance standards means that the few good writers are lost in a pile of slush.


Sigh .... makes me want to write a book just for PA ... maybe Mobile Midnights? Tucson Twilights?

xhouseboy
09-21-2006, 04:02 AM
Wonderful ideas. Collective marketing would be so much more beneficial for everyone concerned than anything we can do on our own. I kind of think PA would have to take the lead on it, and it would be as difficult as organizing a labor union, but it would work.
The "traditional" publishers have a strangle hold on marketing, and they stiff arm us at every traditional avenue, except through internet book stores. PA has a large collection of published authors, who collectively could make an end run around traditional marketing. I suspect that 90-something percent of people don't have any idea there is an alturnative source of books. If PA, the online book stores that support us and the majority of authors whithin the fold could band together for collective and mutually supportive advertizing efforts, this could be very big.


As my old Granny always used to say when confronted with something beyond her comprehension... Oh dearie, dearie me, what's the world coming to...

Christine N.
09-23-2006, 03:23 AM
Sigh.

Collective marketing would be so much more beneficial for everyone concerned than anything we can do on our own. I kind of think PA would have to take the lead on it, and it would be as difficult as organizing a labor union, but it would work.
The "traditional" publishers have a strangle hold on marketing, and they stiff arm us at every traditional avenue, except through internet book stores. PA has a large collection of published authors, who collectively could make an end run around traditional marketing. I suspect that 90-something percent of people don't have any idea there is an alturnative source of books. If PA, the online book stores that support us and the majority of authors whithin the fold could band together for collective and mutually supportive advertizing efforts, this could be very big.


Bolding mine. A) PA would never do such a thing, because if they wanted to, they would already be doing it, B)the "traditional" publishers have something PA doesn't have - a tried and true vetting system for submissions and real editors/cover artists/marketing people, C)90% of the people don't read, so that statistic doesn't matter and again, PA wouldn't support you, because if they wanted to sell books to the public at large, they would already be doing it.

Sheryl Nantus
09-23-2006, 03:42 AM
another idiotic statement from the PAMB:

"PA books are only returnable if ordered through Ingrams and if they are returned by the bookstore Ingrams charges a 10% restocking fee, which of course is charged back to the Publisher and if the publisher has paid royalties on that amount, the royalties plus the restocking fee are charged to the authors account. Hardly worth the effort I would say.
Besides that, having your book in their store is not doing you any favors at all. When my first book came out I had a friend who managed a borders where I lived. He ordered five copies of my book, I was excited to say the least. Basically here is what it boiled down too.
My book retailed for$17.95 which means he bought it for 10.77 each. When it was all said and done my royality was a whopping .87 cents per book. That is not worth my time. The only ones who came out ahead in the process was the bookstore and PA. I decide right there that I could market the book myself and put the money that the bookstore made into my pocket instead of the cash register of the store.
Besides that only 25% of all books sold in the United States are sold in bookstores. I now have centered my marketing to the other 75%."

first, your stats are wrong - but you know that, right?
second, what sort of idiot refuses shelf space in a bookstore so that you can personally beg people to buy your book? Your audience should be the people you *don't* know...

I swear, it's hard to read some of these posts without wondering if they live in the same reality as the rest of us.

and don't get me started on the WOW boards...

*shakes head*

LloydBrown
09-23-2006, 05:42 AM
When my first book came out I had a friend who managed a borders where I lived. He ordered five copies of my book, I was excited to say the least. Basically here is what it boiled down too.
My book retailed for$17.95 which means he bought it for 10.77 each. When it was all said and done my royality was a whopping .87 cents per book. That is not worth my time.

That's why real publishers put them on 2,000 bookstore shelves. How about $21,540--is that worth your time?

janetbellinger
09-23-2006, 06:10 AM
That's why real publishers put them on 2,000 bookstore shelves. How about $21,540--is that worth your time?

I should get so lucky.

Sassenach
09-23-2006, 11:06 PM
On the PAMB someone's crowing about receiving a letter from Mrs Jeb Bush [Fla First Lady]. Someone suggested taking this to their local paper--how it's worth a front-page story.

Don't these guys know that anyone who writes or sends something to a public official will receive a "nice" response? I used to write to everyone when I was a kid, and got photos and responses from the president--even Queen Elizabeth. Obviously, they were prepared by a secretary, but it's cool when you're 10.

stormie
09-24-2006, 12:05 AM
I just read that post by the PA author who received a letter from Mrs.Jeb Bush. "Thank you so much, PA. You are the best publishing company there is. I love PA."

Does anyone here feel as I do, that you just wish you could post on the PA Message Boards with facts (and also w/out getting deleted)? Not to burst their happy bubble over there, but to maybe help them to understand being pubbed by PA doesn't mean you're a "professional now" as a guy on those message boards said.

spike
09-24-2006, 03:46 AM
In response to a request for PA to have a marketing department:

With thousands of books being published by PA, it would be difficult for them to give equal marketing attention to every book published. PA would have to be very selective as to which books get that kind of attention. Needless to say, it would cause much agitation for those authors who don't get their books pushed.

Am I confused, or is this guy saying that PA is not selective about the books they publish print?

xhouseboy
09-24-2006, 03:55 AM
On the PAMB someone's crowing about receiving a letter from Mrs Jeb Bush [Fla First Lady]. Someone suggested taking this to their local paper--how it's worth a front-page story.



Mrs George Bush must be under the impression that PA's the most successful publisher in America. I've lost count of the number of PA authors who send her their books. She's probably got them marked down as a distinct possibilty for George's memoirs when his time in office is up. Wonder if they'll try to negotiate on the dollar advance.

astonwest
09-24-2006, 04:13 AM
My guess is that it'll be posted to the Up in Lights section, and the author in question will then draw many more of his/her author friends into the clutches of PA...based on everything PA has done for them...

:rolleyes:

TwentyFour
09-24-2006, 04:33 AM
Mrs George Bush must be under the impression that PA's the most successful publisher in America. I've lost count of the number of PA authors who send her their books. She's probably got them marked down as a distinct possibilty for George's memoirs when his time in office is up. Wonder if they'll try to negotiate on the dollar advance. hehe...you mean Jeb...

stormie
09-24-2006, 05:00 AM
From what I read, she's thinking of sending her book now to George and his wife, now that she has an "in" with Jeb.

TwentyFour
09-24-2006, 05:21 AM
She'd have better luck in ole George opening a bomb through the mail than her book. His flunkies might get it. I see that as a real waste of money.

PVish
09-24-2006, 04:10 PM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16766
Under the heading, "Is this a good idea," a poster suggests:
Why don't we all become shareholders in Publish America!
As owners we could promote our books for a nominal fee (cheaply)
because of sheer numbers we could get it done.

Another poster answers:
I believe PA is a privately owned company and therefore not a public company that offers shares. Of course you can always start your own publishing house.

Uh. . . .

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-25-2006, 04:03 AM
#1: I would still like to see PA start a marketing department

#2: With thousands of books being published by PA, it would be difficult for them to give equal marketing attention to every book published. PA would have to be very selective as to which books get that kind of attention. Needless to say, it would cause much agitation for those authors who don't get their books pushed.

*********

PVish
09-25-2006, 06:15 AM
From the "Marketing Tips" at the PAMB
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16612

What about putting an insert of your book in the newspaper and not just your local ones?

Get a lisiting of newspapers and contact them and ask them about doing it. Our only cost would be do print the inserts and mail to the newspapers.

I just thought of that and perhaps I'll try it now.

What are your thoughts?

Here are a few of my thoughts: Newspapers charge to put inserts in. They don't give free advertising. Even if they did allow someone to "mail in" these inserts (which is highly unlikely), you'd need thousands of inserts per city. The cost of printing these inserts and shipping them to newspapers all around the country is highly prohibitive. (Think: Have you ever heard of Random House doing this? Why do you think they don't?)

The "put the business card in the junk mail and/or bills" idea has already resurfaced on that thread. It won't be long until someone suggests putting fliers on windshields at the shopping center. It's been a while since that was last suggested on the PAMB.

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-25-2006, 04:51 PM
I've got it!!!!! They can buy lists of email addresses and sent out email announcements to MILLIONS of potential readers for FREE!!!!

PVish
09-25-2006, 05:53 PM
I've got it!!!!! They can buy lists of email addresses and sent out email announcements to MILLIONS of potential readers for FREE!!!!

And, if they all go in together and share the lists, they'll only have to spend PENNIES apiece! Or maybe a few PAers with some extra time can send out very long lists of all available PA books to the email addys on these lists. Wow! Think of the possibilities! Sheesh!

What never ceases to amaze me (a self-pubbed and POD-pubbed writer who has had modest success targeting a very narrow niche market) is that many of the PA authors don't know that not everyone wants to read just any book. IMHO, they appear to think that if people only know of their books, they will buy them. Most PA authors seem unaware of targeting a particular audience. (Yeah, I know: if they really knew how publishing worked, they wouldn't have gone with PA either.)

But at least they "didn't pay to get published." They just have to pay to get the word out. And to buy their books to resell. And to pay for gas to distribute all those fliers. And to visit bookstores and beg managers to shelve the books. Etc.

James D. Macdonald
09-25-2006, 05:55 PM
Suzie can sew the costumes and Billy's dad owns a barn! Hey, kids, let's put on a show!

Do you know why you don't see a lot of newspaper advertising for books? Because it costs more to run than the revenue it brings in.

Sure, you'll see some. For your major best-sellers by your name-brand authors. The purpose of those ads is to tell the public: "Y'know that book you were planning to buy the minute it came out? It's out!"

Those guys aren't best sellers because of the advertising; they get the advertising because of they were already best-selling. Even then they don't get inserts. They get a small black-and-white ad on the book review page.

Yo, PA authors! For anything you do, figure out what it'll cost. Then figure out how many more copies you'll need to sell in order to cover that cost. Then ask yourself if it might not be cheaper and easier all the way around to take a box of your books, put a five-dollar bill in each one, and leave it on the street corner with a sign that says, "Free! Take one!"

See also here: Stupid Internet Marketing Ideas That Don't Work (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3808&postcount=2315). (Anyone who wants to cut-n-paste it into the PAMB promotions board, feel free. You can leave off the title.)

stormie
09-25-2006, 07:01 PM
See also here: Stupid Internet Marketing Ideas That Don't Work (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3808&postcount=2315). (Anyone who wants to cut-n-paste it into the PAMB promotions board, feel free. You can leave off the title.)

Thanks, James, for the laugh. I needed that on a Monday morning! (I'm glad I had finished my coffee before I read it.)

endless rewrite
09-25-2006, 07:01 PM
In the following gem a PA author writes about how they plan to promote themselves and their book by going into schools:

I plan to offer to go to the local schools and read from my book and talk to the kids about writing dialogue, something no one teaches and something I can't do. I do, however, know how. I just don't follow my own knowledge because I don't like writing dialogue (which I will keep to myself.)

I wonder if they will be invited back.

xhouseboy
09-25-2006, 08:49 PM
I plan to offer to go to the local schools and read from my book and talk to the kids about writing dialogue, something no one teaches and something I can't do. I do, however, know how. I just don't follow my own knowledge because I don't like writing dialogue (which I will keep to myself.)

I plan on offering my services to a nuclear power plant up the road from me. I want to lecture them on fusion, or is it fission? Doesn't matter - I'll be winging it anyway.

James D. Macdonald
09-25-2006, 09:02 PM
From the PAMB (last Friday):

Besides that only 25% of all books sold in the United States are sold in bookstores. I now have centered my marketing to the other 75%.

That old myth is still being passed from hand to hand at the PAMB.

Perhaps, if you're talking about "all" books, that may be marginally true. "All" books includes textbooks, reference books, law books, corporate reports, medical books, engineering tables, training manuals, academic studies, and much else that you don't expect to find in bookstores -- but that aren't being sold by the author out of the trunk of his car in the parking lot at Jiffy Lube, either.

If you're talking about trade books (the novels; the general non-fiction) that make up the bulk of PA's offerings, those mostly sell in bookstores. 60-65% of them sell there. Another 30% are sold through book clubs (and PA authors have yet to break into the clubs). We're up to 90-95% of all trade books right now, without getting into the on-line sales and direct sales.

Young author: if you've written a romance, a western, a mystery ... if you aren't in the bookstores you aren't anywhere. Sell what you can in the food court of your local mall (until security throws you out). But don't talk about "joining the 75%." Those ranks, too, are closed to you.

From today:

Well, I have not had much luck with the media or book stores either, but I did get somewhere with two reporters. Here is my advice:

Be a pest. I am a journalist and I know first hand that the press releases I use are the ones from the PR flacks that constantly call or e-mail me. I want to get them off my back so I use their stuff. This is how I have gotten somewhere. I got one reporter from AZCentral.com, Arizona Republic's online newspaper, to ask me for a review copy. The other reporter told me she was willing to call me shortly but I have since read the paper is not going to publish anymore. I still plan to call her again. I plan to send another round of e-mails to the reporters again this week. E-mails tend to work better than media kits because journalist tend to put off opening their mail but always open e-mail because they are expecting important information.

I also found out that bookstores finalize calendars the last two weeks of the month. So I sent more information to the bookstores last week and will follow up this week. I have Borders and Barnes & Noble interested even if it's slightly. There again, be a pest. Keep after them and call them within their timeframe.

But my best source of advertising has been word of mouth. My friends in my Women's Club have told their book clubs and churches without having even read a word of my book; some already have ordered the book; my dentist is going to have her whole staff go to the bookstore to ask for them to stock the book; I put flyers on all my neighbors door steps. One of them is a volunteer at the library and is planning to help me have an event; I contacted the library for a book signing. I give bookmarks to anyone who knows me even if it is marginal; my friends back East are talking up the book; I talk to people about it when I'm buying other services. I got a picture framed for my husband for our anniversary and talked to the framer about my book.

I don't know how many of those will turn into sales but at least the word is out about my book.

Good luck to you!

As you might expect, this author's book won't be coming out until the end of October. I wonder what advice she'll be giving at this time next year, after she sees how well this works?

MicheleLee
09-27-2006, 01:13 AM
Okay, so I wasted a bunch of time reading some of the PA boards. It is so incredibly sad. Heart breaking that all these people (some with insanely poor writing skills) are all so excited about their books being published. Some actually talk about how nice it is that all the negative posts get deleted because they don't want to ever run across anything they find offensive. How incredibly sad.

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-27-2006, 04:06 AM
OMG: It's telepathy or something ... they're thinking of scraping addresses and spamming!

Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:57 pm
Building on something Ron mentioned, there are companies on line who create email lists for you. The reliable companies rent lists (they send the message for you, with your from info, and don't give you the email address). The responses from these types of lists are higher because they are more current, however you don't know if you are emailing twice to the same person (check out the websites of exmmarketing.com and ad-site.com for more info). You can buy email lists too, but these are usually much older with alot of out of date emails listed on them.

Then you can always buy an email extractor (they are around $80 to $100 dollars). Then you can pull your own email addresses (I don't know too much about these, so I don't know if you can pull email addresses to people who purchase books online or not).

Christine N.
09-27-2006, 04:10 AM
Run. Away.
Astroturf is next on the list, I'm sure. Like I don't get enough junk in my in-box.

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-27-2006, 11:21 PM
Run. Away.
Astroturf is next on the list, I'm sure. Like I don't get enough junk in my in-box.

Astroturfing ... you mean like having your friends post 5-star reviews on Amazon, publish glowing reviews of your book on associatedcontent.com, and have your whole church group ask the bookstore to stock your book?

It will never happen.

Christine N.
09-27-2006, 11:31 PM
Yep. I look forward to the misdirected e-mails in my in-box telling me about this great new book they've read, that I simply MUST run out and buy.

<eye roll>

spike
09-28-2006, 07:49 PM
The only bad marketing ideas are the one's that go unused..anything including books can be sold no matter how bad or good they are. I've seen people on e-bay sell snow balls, wads of hair and pancakes..if you push your book you can sell it. let no chance go untaken. Keep your info in hand always. Let no one walk past you with out at least offering them a card or book marker. The costs of these things are very little but if you dont have a penny, a hand shake and a smile will do fine...talk it up...talk,talk, and talk. The people at my job have made a joke about me pushing my book at them...at first this bothered me then one of their spouses called me and asked me where she could order one from...i sold a book because her husband went home complaining about me pushing the book...Dont wait on your book to sell itself. IT WONT....


Can you imagine working with this guy? This is worse than Amway!

Christine N.
09-28-2006, 07:55 PM
That guy's lucky he still has a job. Many places don't allow solicitation of any kind, and don't take kindly to employees that push products on coworkers.

LloydBrown
09-28-2006, 08:14 PM
Again, I want to ask this guy: how's that working out for you? If he's sold 30 or 40 books, why is he giving advice? And what dummy is taking it?

rekirts
09-28-2006, 08:56 PM
I'm surprised some of these people have any friends left. Really, if someone I knew kept pestering me to buy something, anything, I'd make a habit of avoiding them.

SeanDSchaffer
09-28-2006, 10:27 PM
I'm surprised some of these people have any friends left. Really, if someone I knew kept pestering me to buy something, anything, I'd make a habit of avoiding them.


The problem with this that I have encountered is that some of the more pesky solicitors will notice you are trying to avoid them, and not get the point. They will continue to search you out, not realizing they've done wrong.

That's where this situation really becomes a problem.

Sheryl Nantus
09-28-2006, 10:31 PM
I'm surprised some of these people have any friends left. Really, if someone I knew kept pestering me to buy something, anything, I'd make a habit of avoiding them.

especially at those prices.

seriously, how do a lot of these people have the balls to look at themselves in the mirror after forcing themselves on friends and family?

SeanDSchaffer
09-28-2006, 10:35 PM
especially at those prices.

seriously, how do a lot of these people have the balls to look at themselves in the mirror after forcing themselves on friends and family?


They probably are able to look themselves in the mirror afterward, because PublishAmerica told them this is how business is done.

Otherwise, I do not think they would be able to do so without at least flinching.

Bubastes
09-28-2006, 10:48 PM
The costs of these things are very little but if you dont have a penny, a hand shake and a smile will do fine...talk it up...talk,talk, and talk. The people at my job have made a joke about me pushing my book at them...at first this bothered me then one of their spouses called me and asked me where she could order one from...i sold a book because her husband went home complaining about me pushing the book...

Unreal. No, the best way to sell something is to LISTEN first to hear what the buyer wants, THEN sell it to them.

I hate salespeople who do nothing but talk talk talk. Bleah.

I had an ex-BF who got involved with Amway (that's why I broke up with him). Scary stuff.

Ken Schneider
09-29-2006, 12:15 AM
I'm sure if we want to check, that anyone ever associated and posting on the PA board has been on the other side of the quotes.

I'll leave it to those who haven't been with PA to tackle the uneducated posts, since Ive been on the other end.

Arkie
09-29-2006, 01:16 AM
"Authors live on hope. Those that live on unrealistic hope often turn their disappointment in on themselves when a book doesn't do well in the marketplace. The self is the wrong target. In the majority of instances the fate of a book has already been determined by the publisher before the appearance of the first review."--Sol Stein

In the case of a PA book, the fate has been determined by the printer, regardless of reviews, glowing or otherwise. That boat simply won't float.

stormie
09-29-2006, 04:30 AM
as far as your friend go ..he/she needs to wake up one morning and find her car plastered with your flyers.....lol.....NEVER MISS A CHANCE...mail him/her one every day till he/she gives in ...lol...never miss a chance...

That's one way to give up a friendship. Seems DK's long-time friend refused to talk-up her book in "the big city." This other guy then posts the above statement. Sure. Great way to get a book noticed. Not.

TwentyFour
09-29-2006, 05:54 AM
It's a great way to get a restraining order.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16868

just a thought...I have been keeping track of my book on the following website...(yes, you can look yours up too) and the numbers have been changing month to month, yet, my royalty check shows nothing like what they say are selling, so...? Is it just hype or what?

http://www.campusi.com/bookFind/asp/bookFindPriceLst.asp?prodId=1413793037 (http://www.campusi.com/bookFind/asp/bookFindPriceLst.asp?prodId=1413793037)

please let me know if you find out anything. Thanks (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16868#top)

To this her fellow writer says:

I think what you are trying to do is practically impossible...Those numbers change radically when one book is purchased in some store in the USA, Canada or abroad....Plus the time delay betwee n purchase and possible return or billing makes your task even harder...You have to trust your publisher, Publish America, to keep the records straight...Works for me...I think.

Sure, trust PA and see how much you get paid.

Christine N.
09-29-2006, 03:45 PM
Nah, campusi is a mess, you can't possibly determine how many sales from it.

rekirts
09-29-2006, 06:41 PM
I would like to know how flyer guy would feel if he went to his car in the morning to drive to work and found it plastered with flyers about something he had no interest in and had previously turned down. Really, Sir, think about it! Please!

Maddog
09-29-2006, 07:53 PM
You mean this flyer guy?

W.T. GO D.K... never miss a chance ....i love the water dept thing...you gave me another idea...i dont use the i-net to pay my bills ...i mail them in the old way...so from now on they'll be one of my cards in each bill i send out....as far as your friend go ..he/she needs to wake up one morning and find her car plastered with your flyers.....lol.....NEVER MISS A CHANCE...mail him/her one every day till he/she gives in ...lol...never miss a chance....keep up the good work....skeet


Ugh! The "friend" he speaks of refused to talk up another author's book to her "connections in the big city". If the friend is in the publishing biz, no wonder! It should read:

Never miss a chance to piss off your (soon to be ex) friends!

Maddog
09-29-2006, 07:57 PM
I see a banning in this smart lady's future...


Great name, by the way. Look, I am not trying to be combative in any way, I am just trying to understand. Are you currently making money as an author since you say this is not your first publication?
Can I ask where you are from because I do think it matters.

I am from San Jose, CA and my local papers for instance, after many, many contacts just will have nothing to do with me. And I know my book is good. Although I have refused to buy my own copies, other than a few which I gave to a deserving few. I am taking the good old fashioned route by getting the book in stores. Painfully slow, but I can't stand dealing with money and receipts and Uncle Sam. So the stores order a few, they sell, and they order a few more.

I personally do not think buying our own copies and getting through the first 50 people who feel obligated to buy counts. It's the bigger picture we should be concerned about. Plus, my book retails at $24.95 and I just don't have that kind of money around to keep buying my own and hoping I sell them.

Again, this is just my personal opinion, and I hope whatever angle anyone has woirks for them.

Sheryl Nantus
09-29-2006, 08:03 PM
she should be getting a smackdown in a few minutes by the rabid PA supporters who will tell her that the *real* money is in buying and reselling her own books due to the royalty rate, yatta yatta yatta...

I swear, there's a special circle in Hades for those who keep spreading the rumors that books in bookstores don't sell...

:(

xhouseboy
09-29-2006, 08:10 PM
as far as your friend go ..he/she needs to wake up one morning and find her car plastered with your flyers.....lol.....NEVER MISS A CHANCE...mail him/her one every day till he/she gives in ...lol...never miss a chance....keep up the good work....skeet


Or until s/he report you for harrasment, or better still, takes out a restraining order.

With friends like this, the neighbourhood would soon turn into an estate agent's dream; everyone would be moving.

Sheryl Nantus
09-29-2006, 08:23 PM
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of common sense behind these ideas. How often have *you* bought anything based on a flier stuffed under your wipers?

and if you're not... then why do you think anyone else *would*?

Arkie
09-29-2006, 08:24 PM
In this town the council has passed an ordinance against leaving flyers on car windshieds (anti-littering, etc.), and the last place I worked there was a company rule against soliciting fellow workers in the office, and that included those that hustled their kids Girl Scout Cookies and dollar candy bars for school projects.

Sheryl Nantus
09-29-2006, 08:27 PM
unfortunately that's becoming more common - it used to be a nice, subtle approach to have your products advertised and sold "in house", but more and more people are taking it to the stupid level... and if it takes any time away from the job you're being *paid* for, then it's just not acceptable.

I wonder if any PA authors have been fired or reprimanded for flogging their unedited, overpriced tomes at their workplaces...

Christine N.
09-29-2006, 08:59 PM
next someone will suggest those door hanger things, and a neighborhood walk through.

It shouldn't BE this hard.

Saundra Julian
09-29-2006, 10:09 PM
It is...when you're trying to peddle an over-priced, unedited, stinker of a book!

astonwest
09-30-2006, 08:46 AM
I wonder if any PA authors have been fired or reprimanded for flogging their unedited, overpriced tomes at their workplaces...
Doubtful...most of their co-workers are probably just as excited about them getting published (unless they've heard of PA)...until they read the book, and if it's indeed unedited (it's always overpriced...but some PA authors actually knew how to edit their own books), most are probably too nice to say anything.

you gave me another idea...i dont use the i-net to pay my bills ...i mail them in the old way...so from now on they'll be one of my cards in each bill i send out
Yup, no one has ever tried that before...and it works so well when you yourself receive junk mail advertising something.

PVish
10-01-2006, 01:44 AM
From http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16612&start=30:
I read from my book at Sunday Night Coffee at Unity Church. Today, they sent me a contract to sell my book in their bookstore at 60%/40%. I know there are lots of poetry and quite religious books out there that may do well in church bookstores. I contribute a percentage of my earnings to my church anyway; this is just direct. Anyone else selling in church bookstores?

At that rate, you'll be in the hole after you pay shipping to get your books. Of course, if you bought your books at 50%, then you might break even.

Tsu Dho Nimh
10-02-2006, 12:28 AM
Sounds like Author: the Roleplaying Game is enough for a lot of people.


Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:12 pm
All these ideas have been thought about, discussed and finally abandoned by every group of PA authors over the past six years.
(redacted) even put together a PA book 200 Authors and tried to involve all the contributors in promoting the book.
When he asked the authors to send out press releases to all the major newspapers, the repsonse was extremely poor. The authors had better things to do with their time.
Royalties so far show that less than forty books were sold.
People want in on promotional activities until it starts to take up too much of their time.
This may seem harsh but true.

Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:48 pm
Dear (redacted),
You are right. That's why I said that any collective promotions would have to be organized by PA to gain any steam. Even then, most people think small while expecting something big, and expect something big without being willing to much into it.
It's just that with so many authors in their stable, it would seem to me they could find thousands who would be willing to do something collectively.

Christine N.
10-02-2006, 12:38 AM
And again, I ask the PA lurkers...
If PA wanted to give its authors promotional backing, WHY AREN'T THEY DOING IT ALREADY?

They've been in business for years and have 'published' thousands of authors. Why haven't they even organizedanything? The best they do is point you to a book available on their site.

Ask and let yourself hear the answer!

spike
10-02-2006, 04:23 PM
Sounds like Author: the Roleplaying Game is enough for a lot of people.


Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:12 pm
All these ideas have been thought about, discussed and finally abandoned by every group of PA authors over the past six years.
(redacted) even put together a PA book 200 Authors and tried to involve all the contributors in promoting the book.
When he asked the authors to send out press releases to all the major newspapers, the repsonse was extremely poor. The authors had better things to do with their time.
Royalties so far show that less than forty books were sold.
People want in on promotional activities until it starts to take up too much of their time.
This may seem harsh but true.



So that's what happened to the 200 Author book.

JulieB
10-02-2006, 07:12 PM
People want in on promotional activities until it starts to take up too much of their time. This may seem harsh but true.

No, people give up on promotional activities when it's clear that the activities aren't worth their time.

PVish
10-02-2006, 07:44 PM
From the marketing thread on the PAMB:

Very wise ideas in this thread. All very good and rational. Marketing a book as we do against the publishing monopoly marketing racket is difficult. But, it will not be for that much longer. We would be very interested in continuing this discussion to fruition!

There is no doubt, the percieved monopoly the publishing industry has established is full of holes, thanks to the internet markets that gain ground every day...there are opportunities we should look into and respond to.

I have seen and read many threads in these forums, but this one is of utmost value. We know how hard it is to market our books as one...I like these ideas...and we are interested in working with people who honestly wish to overcome this darn marketing wall that the industry has put up.

I also believe it would change the industry completely if PA took this and ran with it...It would be a great thing to see the publisher who took us in when none others would really make their mark against the establishment in this way...I would applaud such!

Gee, I don't know where to begin to refute this, uh, logic. Anybody else want to give it a try?

LloydBrown
10-02-2006, 07:59 PM
[/i]No, people give up on promotional activities when it's clear that the activities aren't worth their time.

Some of them do. The rest keep talking about bookmarks, websites, and business cards.

Maddog
10-02-2006, 08:14 PM
The problem with marketing PA books is that they're trying to sell a product that has no market. That is why "The Publishing Monopoly" rejected their manuscripts in the first place. It's like a salmon swimming upstream, only the salmon is more likely to reach its goal that the poor PA writer. So sad...

soloset
10-02-2006, 08:27 PM
It's like a salmon swimming upstream, only the salmon is more likely to reach its goal that the poor PA writer. So sad...

More like a salmon swimming upstream, and just when it starts to get tired, there's a nice, easy little stream diverting off to one side with a sign that says "shortcut to ocean".

And at the other end of the "shortcut" is a tiny pool and a bear with a fired-up grill and a greased cedar plank.

icerose
10-02-2006, 08:28 PM
I think they would be much more surprised that it is PA itself who is putting up those walls. Everytime I would break through one, PA would make it impossible to cross over.

I had a distributor and a wholesaler lined up to get my books in book clubs, walmart, stocked in bookstores at reasonable prices. All PA had to do was give the go ahead and it would have been done. I had three television shows lined up for interviews, one of them being national.

Who stopped it all? It certainly wasn't the publishing monopoly. It was good ole PA.

Take a look in the mirror and see who is really sabotaging you, chances are you will see PA in the background cutting the legs out from under you. They did it to me, they did it to many others.

Oh and edited to add that I also had ten real reviewers, including Foreward who had requested to read it, PA refused to send them review copies.

Bubastes
10-02-2006, 09:37 PM
More like a salmon swimming upstream, and just when it starts to get tired, there's a nice, easy little stream diverting off to one side with a sign that says "shortcut to ocean".

And at the other end of the "shortcut" is a tiny pool and a bear with a fired-up grill and a greased cedar plank.

Like this?

http://www.despair.com/ambition.html

soloset
10-02-2006, 10:22 PM
Like this?

http://www.despair.com/ambition.html

That is awesome. I'm a little depressed now, though. <g>

icerose
10-02-2006, 10:28 PM
That picture is hilarious and so fitting!

Tsu Dho Nimh
10-03-2006, 03:26 AM
So you are saying that PA didn't permit it?

Or they were handed an opportunity on a silver platter .... and dropped the platter?

icerose
10-03-2006, 05:05 AM
So you are saying that PA didn't permit it?

Or they were handed an opportunity on a silver platter .... and dropped the platter?

When it first began I didn't like how the ingrams discount worked (I believed them when they said it was ingrams discount) so I asked around at barnes and noble and walmart and they said if I could get it with X distributor they would not only stock my book but showcase it as well.

I asked PA if I was allowed to persue my own distributors. They gave the green light.

So I went to X distributor sent them a copy of my book through their requirements, and they offered to carry it. There was a problem, they didn't handle trade paperbacks and they prefer to keep their own stock using their own printer.

So they sent PA a contract stating the terms of distribution and such their cut, PA's cut, and such, price of the book, what it would look like and PA refused, saying I had acted on my own and did not have permission to do such things.

They came back to me and told me what had happened. By this time I was fuming, as you can imagine. I had already lined up 3 television interviews, two on popular state networks and the other was a national. After the distributor deal folded I explained the situation to the networks and cancelled. I had recieved two glowing reviews from legit reviewers and had ten others lined up, one being foreward magazine. I sent their requests on to PA, PA refused to send out the review copies stating that the contract said that they got to choose whether or not to send out review copies.

I never promoted my book to anyone after that. It still sold over thirty copies, most directly bought from PA as it was about four dollars cheaper. Most were not family, four of such sales were total strangers, that was before my book suddenly became unavaible and was unable to be ordered for months at a time. By this time the second book was scheduled to be coming out. The editing was atrocious, they added in errors, and the cover art was hideous. There were somewhere between 30-40 pre-orders, all of which were canceled and then both contracts were returned to me.

It's odd, I'm still getting requests for my book now that my book has been out of contract since febuary, and at least two brand new copies have sold since then.

Weird situation, weird company.

ETA: I also had the local school district lobbying to get my book as required reading for the state but PA refused their request saying they could not fulfill the volume of orders. Go figure.

James D. Macdonald
10-03-2006, 07:44 AM
Nothing weird at all. They'll do anything to avoid dealing with the real publishing industry, they don't want to sell books to anyone but you, and they aren't set up to sell books in commercial quantities.

PVish
10-03-2006, 03:45 PM
I have been looking at book festivals
http://www.book-sales-in-america.com/
Contact the local organizer and see if you could set up an autograph signing. You will have to sell the book for "cost" and let any mark up go to the book drives cause. However you won’t loose anything and it’s a great way for exposure.

Let's see: You sell the book at cost (but you had to pay postage, so you're selling for LESS than your total cost), you have to pay for your gas to get there, you spend most of the day sitting in a booth, and you sell very few books because many other authors are doing the same thing (and the patrons there are buying books from authors they've heard about), and you're handing our bookmarks and cards that you paid for. And, of course, some fairs charge for table space. You're losing money.

At a few of the past Virginia Festivals of the Book, I've seen book-laden tables occupied by folks I've never heard of. They looked lonely, because crowd passed them by to go hear the big-name authors speak. There is no way these unknowns came out ahead. But the lines were long at the tables where bookstores sold the books of the well-known speakers.

The "exposure" you get is the chance to network with other authors, some of whom just might ask why you went with such a scammy publisher. If you're at a local event, you might sell a couple of books to people you already know. If you're traveling a distance, odds are good you won't sell many.

Many fairs/bookfests are by invitation only (I serve on a committee for one of these) and limit the number of authors invited. Others allow authors to apply for space but require them to submit a book for judging before a limited number of invitees are chosen. A few open the gates to everyone, no matter how badly a book is written, as long as the authors cough up the money for table space—but do you really want to attend that kind of event?

Unless the book event has a big name speaker to draw a crowd, not many people are likely to attend. And even then, many go home after the big-name author has spoken and signed books. (Usually, a local bookstore rep will have lots of books to sell for the speaker to sign.)

As for "exposure," you might be exposed to how publishing really works.

spike
10-04-2006, 07:34 PM
Small town public libraries are are usually happy to have a book signing but you should have some of your books. If you can't affort to buy a supply of your book at the 50% discount, you need other options. If the retail price of your book is, for example, $20.00 per copy, you can purchase 50 books from PA for $500.00 on your credit card at 50% discount from the retail price and pay back your credit card within the no interest period, you can make $250.00 profit. Then, use that money you made to keep purchasing more books and selling them at a 10% discount. Always put your profits back in your business. Dinner out is nice but eats up your profits. Always take your two free copies with you everywhere you go and tell people how they can purchase a copy through the Internet bookstores.

Drug stores that have a book section are good places to place a few books. Your local grocery store is a good place too. Try your Dentist's office. Places to market your book are all around you.

Same old song and dance.

icerose
10-04-2006, 07:41 PM
And that's if you can sell those fifty copies for that price. OUCH! Please people don't buy your own books. Real published authors don't buy their books in fact many real publishers have it in the contract barring their authors from doing so as they feel it's the publisher's job to sell the books. Heck, even PA states on their website it's their job to sell the book. So how does it end up that the author carries the full burden and you all are happy about it???

If PA is truly not a vanity publisher, then I challenge all of you to NOT buy your books, otherwise, congratulations, you have paid to be published. Come on, prove us wrong that PA isn't a vanity, don't pay to be published.

triceretops
10-04-2006, 07:45 PM
Yeah, that's an example of what PA EXACTLY wants their authors to do. Load up on books, ring that credit card dry, with the assumtion that you'll get it all back and more. What a system. PA knows damn well it's a vanity operation and are giggling all the way to the bank. The authors refuse to believe it.

Tri

icerose
10-04-2006, 07:53 PM
Yeah, that's an example of what PA EXACTLY wants their authors to do. Load up on books, ring that credit card dry, with the assumtion that you'll get it all back and more. What a system. PA knows damn well it's a vanity operation and are giggling all the way to the bank. The authors refuse to believe it.

Tri

Not to mention very few were able to sell even the fifty books that they bought and rarely at anything more than cost, especially since you factor in the outrageous shipping costs. I think most authors fail to account for that and PA is happy to jack it up.

triceretops
10-04-2006, 08:27 PM
I live in a one-horse town, in NC, and we don't have a newspaper . . . I've tried to persuade other newspapers to write a review to no avail. My book is currently 62 pgs. (I plan to add a Foreword as soon as I can find a PA author willing to write a 15 pg. minimum, single space, for a [negotiable] fee and the byline) and it has a Christian motif.

Oh, dear. I don't get this. I just don't. He wants a foreword that is roughly 1/4 the size of his short story for inclusion in the text AFTER the book has been published. How or why should you credit a foreword author with a byline? Add to that, his first question asked if it was too late to promote the book, since it's already out.

He needs to visit AW, AND STAY HERE WITH US.

Tri
Tri

James D. Macdonald
10-05-2006, 02:00 AM
Drug stores that have a book section are good places to place a few books. Your local grocery store is a good place too.

That author's book came out in January, '06. He's seen one royalty period since then. I'd like to ask him, "How's that working out for you?" (Grocery stores and drug stores are usually covered by the IDs (Independent distributors), who demand very steep discounts and won't touch a POD book.)

Also, that author needs to learn how to make direct links to his book at Amazon and such (not just a link to Amazon's front door with instructions on how do do a search). Have him get in touch with me if he wants to learn how.

Maddog
10-09-2006, 07:50 PM
This PA Author had been around awhile. I think she's figured it out...


(My book) is on the Inside the book feature of Amazon. The way I see it is that we are really unknown. No one could basically give a rats behind about what we have written. To me, I am please with the Amazon feature because it does give some clue to what my *** book is about. It has some stories, shows some of my pitiful drawings and lets the viewer have a glimpse.

If I could afford to buy a million books my own self to give away, I would do it. As an author that no one ever heard of, I could have written the best book ever written and no one would know it at all. To me, it is all about getting your book recognized and out there into the wide world. It is just a shame I am so poor!!!

icerose
10-09-2006, 07:59 PM
I don't think she has figured it out. It isn't just about being an unknown author or poor.

It's about your publisher, it's about what they do to market it, it's about editing, it's about presentation and so on and so forth.

Steven King was an UNKNOWN, and he was poor. He didn't know anyone. Yet he made it big. He did not buy his own books. Same with every other career writer. It isn't who you know, or what connections you have. It may work that way in hollywood but not in the book world. It's about writing a book that people love AND about having a publisher that will put it out there, get it stocked, get it reviewed, get it into book clubs, libraries. Your publisher does NOTHING. After that it's all about the readers. And a million books? Some can't even give away the fifty they bought.

Folks, this has NOTHING to do with money on your side or unknown status. It's all about publisher, marketing, and how good the book is. But even the best written PA book will and has failed, because of the publisher.

spike
10-28-2006, 10:52 PM
Mr. 25% has changed his stock answer to the bookstore question:

Do not be too upset when you will discover that many bookstores will not even carry your book. Bookstores are really a waste of time and effort to have your book placed on their shelves simply because the only people making the money is the bookstore and the publisher and many times it cost you more than what it is worth.
Your book is already in their store catalogue simply because it is in their online bookstore. So why duplicate the effort?

PA lurkers: The reason the it "isn't worth the effort" for you is that your publisher is supposed to do that work and expend the expense of getting the book into a bookstore, not the author.

And "why duplicate the effort"? Because people don't browse online bookstores. People browse in real stores, and frequently buy books that they discovered that way. Or, if they are cheap, like me, they browse in bookstores and order online to get it cheaper.

spike
11-13-2006, 05:27 PM
The PA faithful like to refer to this:

From Publishers Weekly, some sobering statistics:

In 2004, Nielsen Bookscan tracked sales of 1.2 million books in the US. Of those 1.2 million, 950,000 sold fewer than 99 (yes, ninety-nine) copies each. Another 200,000 sold fewer than 1,000 copies. Only 25,000 books sold more than 5,000 copies. Fewer than 500 sold more than 100,000 copies. Only 10 books sold more than a million copies each. THE AVERAGE BOOK IN THE US SELLS ABOUT 500 COPIES.

Now Miss Snark explains

http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006/11/sky-is-falling-sky-is-falling.html

1. Bookscan (http://http://www.bookscan.com/about.html), despite its name, tracks ISBN numbers not books. The difference is that you can have several different ISBN numbers for ONE title: hardcover, trade paper, mass market, special editions. Calenders have ISBN numbers too. As an author of one title, you could have three, maybe four ISBN numbers sliding over the scanner and ringing up royalties.

2. Bookscan doesn't measure sales at WalMart.

3. Bookscan itself says it only captures about 70% of the hardcover market, and offers no stats on how much of the paper market it captures.

4. Bookscan measures retail sales, which excludes sales to libraries.

5. There is no such animal as the average book.


Go back to tormenting yourself with sentence structure, back story and the death of chicklit. The state of the industry will be there for you to anguish about later.

xhouseboy
11-13-2006, 05:59 PM
To me, it is all about getting your book recognized and out there into the wide world. It is just a shame I am so poor!!!

A certain Uk author also wanted to get her book out there into the wide world. She was on welfare, and so poor at the time she that she spent her days in a cafe with her infant daughter while penning her book. This saved on heating bills for her bedsit.

As a total unknown (as most authors are when starting out) she got her book(s) out. She's not so poor now.

spike
11-20-2006, 01:46 PM
PA not only has some very good writers in their stable, it may be the last avenue of real writers.

Is this denial or delusion?

spike
11-20-2006, 01:58 PM
Most of the people in your address books are friends, and if they haven't bought your book by now, they probably won't...so you've got nothing to lose and a good deed to gain. Just write one email, and send it to them all at once.

Nothing to lose but your friends! Friends don't treat friends like potential sales.

Nakhlasmoke
11-20-2006, 02:21 PM
Nothing to lose but your friends! Friends don't treat friends like potential sales.

(P)Amway.

It comes down to the same sort of thing, every party they go to, they'll be forcing their book on people who don't want to read it, and after a while there will be no more invites, people will "forget" to call and email...

And then the police will find the author's body, half-eaten by feral cats, surrounded by towering piles of autho- discounted copies of their PA books.

It's a scary future kids, don't do PA.

endless rewrite
11-20-2006, 02:32 PM
More mind numbing arrogance from the PAMB:

PA not only has some very good writers in their stable, it may be the last avenue of real writers.


avenue - more of a cul-de-sac

spike
11-20-2006, 02:36 PM
More mind numbing arrogance from the PAMB:

PA not only has some very good writers in their stable, it may be the last avenue of real writers.


avenue - more of a cul-de-sac

Cul-de-sac my a$$! It's a dead end.

xhouseboy
11-20-2006, 03:46 PM
Most of the people in your address books are friends, and if they haven't bought your book by now, they probably won't...so you've got nothing to lose and a good deed to gain. Just write one email, and send it to them all at once.

And then sit back while they transfer you from their address book to their spam folder.

James D. Macdonald
11-20-2006, 06:36 PM
PA not only has some very good writers in their stable, it may be the last avenue of real writers.

That person is arguing that the major publishers are publishing exclusively celebrity books, therefore "real writers" must go the vanity route.

It's demonstrably untrue that the majors only publish celebrity books -- a stroll through any bookstore would tell you that -- so the conclusion isn't supported.

James D. Macdonald
11-20-2006, 06:49 PM
Most of the people in your address books are friends, and if they haven't bought your book by now, they probably won't...

That author is still working on getting one selected PA book to the #1-on-Amazon slot. Somehow, magically, that'll make PA books in general more palatable to the public.

In the same thread, another author says:

That and I do not require an ego boost by getting all of six books onto the middle shelf way back in the aisles of some bookstore.

He's quite right: six books in one bookstore (which is close to the best a PA author can hope for) isn't worth much.

Six books on the middle shelf way back in the aisles in half the book outlets in America, with just a 50% sell-through, is 24,000 sales. Does he want to turn down 24,000 sales?

Sean D. Schaffer
11-20-2006, 08:23 PM
Snipped....

He's quite right: six books in one bookstore (which is close to the best a PA author can hope for) isn't worth much.

Six books on the middle shelf way back in the aisles in half the book outlets in America, with just a 50% sell-through, is 24,000 sales. Does he want to turn down 24,000 sales?


What I would give to have 24,000 sales!

Heck, what I would give to have a tenth of that.

My PA book didn't even sell 24 copies. It saddens me to see so many PA'ers thinking that six books in the back of the bookstore is a bad thing. Some PA books don't even sell 6 copies altogether.

Sassenach
11-20-2006, 08:30 PM
More wisdom from PAMB, about why it isn't necessary to edit books.

Aside from spelling and grammar, the editor isn't me. He or she can't look inside my head or read one of the [redacted] novels and get a sense of what I am trying to say or how I am trying to say it, because I have my own unique way of writing a suspense novel that two out of two reviewers liked.

Any book that I write and submit to PA is mine and mine alone. It is my own unique view into what I perceive to be a part of the world I am trying to portray in fiction, and the factual reality that is non fiction if I ever do decide to go that route. If one or any of my books becomes a movie, TV show, or the like I hope that I am part of the concept and not left out in the cold.

I am proud to say that all three [redacted] novels will be released without editing, so that the readers will be reading my writing to enjoy.

Sean D. Schaffer
11-20-2006, 08:36 PM
More wisdom from PAMB, about why it isn't necessary to edit books.

Aside from spelling and grammar, the editor isn't me. He or she can't look inside my head or read one of the [redacted] novels and get a sense of what I am trying to say or how I am trying to say it, because I have my own unique way of writing a suspense novel that two out of two reviewers liked.

Any book that I write and submit to PA is mine and mine alone. It is my own unique view into what I perceive to be a part of the world I am trying to portray in fiction, and the factual reality that is non fiction if I ever do decide to go that route. If one or any of my books becomes a movie, TV show, or the like I hope that I am part of the concept and not left out in the cold.

I am proud to say that all three [redacted] novels will be released without editing, so that the readers will be reading my writing to enjoy.



Sounds like a classic case of 'Golden Word Syndrome' to me. I remember a time when I used to suffer from it. It is not fun to be worried about the changes an editor will put in your work.

Even so, and with the highest of respect to the author in question, the author is not the authority on whether the book is good or not. That is the place of the reader. The editor's job is to look at a book from a reader's perspective, as I understand it. That's why a legitimate editor is so important to a book's success.

CaoPaux
11-20-2006, 08:59 PM
I am proud to say that all three [redacted] novels will be released without editing, so that the readers will be reading my writing to enjoy.
*response redacted by Nice-O-MaticTM*

Joanna_S
11-20-2006, 09:00 PM
He or she can't look inside my head or read one of the [redacted] novels and get a sense of what I am trying to say or how I am trying to say it,

This is exactly why one needs an editor. If when reading the novel one can't get a sense of what the author is saying, then it needs to be rewritten.

For anyone who wants to be a professional writer, being willing to listen to a good editor, or even a critique partner, is essential. You have to put the good of the book above your own ego. You have to want to communicate to the reader more than anything else. Whatever makes your book better should be your goal, not some imagined purity of word that is worth worshipping because you typed it.

As for book sales, my books have sold anywhere from 15,000-35,000 copies (except the one that just came out last month). They've all been translated into other languages. I'm a total nobody. No one's ever heard of me; no one buys them because I'm the author. The sales are okay, but nothing to brag about -- certainly far from best sellers. But I guarantee you I was paid more than a dollar, and that they're on bookshelves in real bookstores. For any lurking PA authors, I am typical of the reason that whole "they only publish celebrities" thing is a fabrication. To repeat: I am nobody. Not famous in the slightest and I have 5 books in print with more on the way. Wake up and begin the process of getting out of your contract. Save your future books for a real publisher.

-- Joanna

James D. Macdonald
11-20-2006, 09:57 PM
Something else about that drive to get a certain PA book to the #1-on-Amazon slot that any lurker from the PAMB can take home:

It won't help.

Listen: AuthorHouse already had one of their books at the #1 spot on the Amazon best-seller list. AuthorHouse books still aren't stocked in bookstores; everyone knows that AuthorHouse is a POD vanity. Their authors still don't get any respect.

What's more, real publishers know how easy it is to manipulate Amazon rankings. No one cares if your book was a #1 Amazon seller for a couple of hours.

Joanna_S
11-21-2006, 01:59 AM
I know a fanfiction writer who had a POD book. She had a lot of online fans on a mailing list because of her fanfiction. They coordinated a mass book buying to try to get her to #1 on Amazon. Some people bought multiple copies and since her mailing list had over 1500 people on it, this was no small operation. They coordinated the time worldwide so that they all bought their books at the exact same moment.

Her book went to #6 for about 3 minutes and then steadily fell back to obscurity. She did not become rich or famous and the POD publisher is now defunct.

Amazon rankings are meaningless.

-- Joanna

James D. Macdonald
11-21-2006, 10:19 PM
He or she can't look inside my head or read one of the [redacted] novels and get a sense of what I am trying to say or how I am trying to say it....

This person is proud of the fact that readers can't figure out what he's trying to say.

I'm sure his mom will enjoy his book(s) very much. (His books haven't come out yet -- they aren't even scheduled. Yet he's still quoted on the PA "Testimonials" page. Talk about your honeymooner!)

spike
11-22-2006, 01:05 AM
He or she can't look inside my head or read one of the [redacted] novels and get a sense of what I am trying to say or how I am trying to say it....

When my first manuscript, which was a mess, was critiqued, I was very annoyed that no one "got it". No one understood what I was saying.

Thankfully, before I embarrassed myself in front of the group, I realized that if I were a better writer, they would understand. Hopefully, that's where I'm headed.

Unfortunately this author went to PA, and now he thinks his words really are "Golden".

spike
11-25-2006, 04:47 PM
I keep reading this on the PAMB:

Pa spent their time and money to do the book....so now it is our turn to give effort in our part......


Or other versions with the same meaning. PA does not spend very much money on their authors, in comparision to what a commercial publisher spends! I wish I knew the actual numbers, but just look at this one fact:

A commercial publisher does a print run, which means investing the publishing house's money in a book that may or may not sell.

PA has the book printed when it's orders. They've put out no money. They've taken no risk.

What did they spend so much time and money on?

The best advice I ever got was in 7th grade (30+ years ago) when a writer spoke to our class. He said if you want to be a writer, take a few business courses in college, because writing is a business and the writer needs to understand it.

I believe that's still true today, although we have the internet and AW to help us.

James D. Macdonald
11-26-2006, 01:27 AM
I while back I calculated that PA spends around $300 per title. The author pays this back, and more, with his first fifty-book order.

Sean D. Schaffer
11-26-2006, 06:32 AM
I while back I calculated that PA spends around $300 per title. The author pays this back, and more, with his first fifty-book order.


I wonder how much houses like Tor or Baen spend per title?

It would be an interesting comparison, I think, to show by numbers what kind of faith PA puts in its authors' works versus the kind of faith a legitimate house puts in its authors' works.

Christine N.
11-26-2006, 03:48 PM
Both of those publishers also do a Profit/Loss analysis to estimate if they'll get their money back and make a profit

None of it involves the author and their credit card.

JulieB
11-27-2006, 06:05 AM
Of course it involves the author - as in how much of an advance they're going to pay said author! ;-)

That's my kind of publisher!

James D. Macdonald
11-27-2006, 06:36 AM
You want numbers? You got numbers!

http://alg.livejournal.com/84032.html#cutid1

http://alg.livejournal.com/89781.html#cutid1

Sean D. Schaffer
11-27-2006, 07:15 AM
You want numbers? You got numbers!

http://alg.livejournal.com/84032.html#cutid1

http://alg.livejournal.com/89781.html#cutid1



Wow! I've only read Part the First and I am amazed at how much money publishing houses have to spend on one book. The information in the essay is well worth the read.

Joanna_S
11-27-2006, 09:33 AM
Wait, that information's all wrong. Not once did she figure in the cost of tone letters.

-- Joanna

Christine N.
11-27-2006, 04:54 PM
Anna's blog is worth bookmarking. She's on my LJ list, so I can keep up with her great advice.

spike
11-28-2006, 04:03 AM
You want numbers? You got numbers!

http://alg.livejournal.com/84032.html#cutid1

http://alg.livejournal.com/89781.html#cutid1

Thank you, Uncle Jim.

triceretops
11-28-2006, 07:57 AM
He's at it again. This is the perfect PA customer:

While you are correct that you book will have to sell before you make money I can assure you that a bookstore is NOT the place for you to make money selling books.

Tri

triceretops
11-28-2006, 08:13 AM
PA not only has some very good writers in their stable, it may be the last avenue of real writers.

My, dear, dear friend. You are not exclusive. Prick that bubble you're in and come out to gaze upon the hundreds of thousands of other authors who are doing the exact same thing you're doing. PA is actually the last avenue you should be trodding, when everyone else seems to be on a more clearly defined road, or super-highway.

Tri

spike
11-28-2006, 01:34 PM
He's at it again. This is the perfect PA customer:

While you are correct that you book will have to sell before you make money I can assure you that a bookstore is NOT the place for you to make money selling books.

Tri

On some level, that quote is correct. PA books won't make money in bookstores, because the bookstores, generally, won't shelve them.

tlblack
11-30-2006, 06:59 PM
The internet and word of mouth is the way to go. That's why I have asked everyone who can to buy Normandy 1944 from Amazon, and if they can't, send an email about it to everyone in their address book.
Most of the people in your address books are friends, and if they haven't bought your book by now, they probably won't...so you've got nothing to lose and a good deed to gain. Just write one email, and send it to them all at once. Easy.
When we tell people we know, or anyone else for that matter, that our book is great, they take it with a grain of salt. But if we praise someone else's book, they take it more seriously. That's why this could work.
Give us a hand. It would be great to see what a bunch of PA authors could do, if they pulled together, and many of those people who won't give us a second look might start taking notice.
If we can get the word out, momentum will start making things happen--things we weren't even expecting. That's the way PR works.




The sad part of this is that they really believe this would work. Personally, if I don't recognize the email address I don't open the mail, but then again, I wouldn't ask my friends and relatives to send out spam email in the hopes that I might get one or two sales either.

PVish
11-30-2006, 07:27 PM
Give us a hand. It would be great to see what a bunch of PA authors could do, if they pulled together, and many of those people who won't give us a second look might start taking notice.
If we can get the word out, momentum will start making things happen--things we weren't even expecting. That's the way PR works.

Anyone else appreciate the irony in this PAMB post?

People are taking notice of PA. PR works in mysterious ways—like on the AW board.

Gravity
11-30-2006, 07:54 PM
Oh yes. The public is becoming very aware of PA. Just not in the way the PA authors would hope...

spike
12-03-2006, 04:30 AM
This is from the Bookstores-Are-Bad guy.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=18093

Now, the reason that we have trouble with Barnes and Noble, Borders, and so forth is that they own their on subsidy publishing companies. People pay to have them publish their books, the bookstores carry the books, which are print on demand, and the bookstore makes out from the sale of the book and from the author themselves. The reason they don't what us is that WE ARE the competition.

That would be like a Walmart store having only Sears products in thier store that just will not happen.


Funny, I was just at Barnes and Nobels the other day, and you know what I saw? Books published by all the big, commerical publishers and some small ones too. What I didn't see were books published by PA.

Hmmm...so PA books are the competition, but all the other publishers aren't? This doesn't even make sense in the non-sensical PA world view.

Gravity
12-03-2006, 05:43 AM
This is from the Bookstores-Are-Bad guy.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=18093



Funny, I was just at Barnes and Nobels the other day, and you know what I saw? Books published by all the big, commerical publishers and some small ones too. What I didn't see were books published by PA.

Hmmm...so PA books are the competition, but all the other publishers aren't? This doesn't even make sense in the non-sensical PA world view.

Such cluelessness. It's almost...breathtaking. You know, I think we've just found that most elusive of beasts: the perfect PA author. I'm serious. This is the kind of gormless mark Willie prays for. I would imagine both are deliriously happy.

PA author, meet PA. A marriage made in...well, not heaven, certainly, but somewhere.

MadScientistMatt
12-03-2006, 11:37 PM
Wait, that information's all wrong. Not once did she figure in the cost of tone letters.

-- Joanna

I believe PA buys them in bulk; they're only a few cents each when you order a thousand of 'em.

triceretops
12-04-2006, 12:53 PM
This PA author has requested free stories for a publication from his fellow authors and is running into flak:

Our print issue are in fact free, and distributed in many outlets in the Chicago are--i.e. bookstores and coffeehouses.

We don't advertise on our site yet, but we are moving that way.

We hold free readings monthly where we give away copies of our issues.

Egos of the inexperience is something I don't understand. The idea behind writing is that someone will read your work--not monotary reimbursement. Our print circluation is something like 200 or so--small, yes, but growing--and our online edition get abouts 250 hits per month. That's pretty good readership for a tiny start-up only a few months old. I would argue that readership is more important than the few dollars you would receive for you story.

This is the answer from another:


The "few dollars" is not quite the point. Either you are a professional and write like one and expect recognition through payment (which shows your work has worth), or you are a dilettante who just wants to see the name in print.
I've always operated on the assumption that if it's worthy of print, it's worthy of compensation for the time, effort and expertise expended in turning out a finished product. I have to pay the plumber, the lawn mowing man, the electric company...who offer products/services just as I do. And they don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts.

The solicitor seems to think that writing should be a free exercise, and can't understand why no one wants to contribute for free.

The other comment is a taste in irony, since she explains that writing is a job and one should be entitled to compensation for the time, effort, and expertise expended in turning out a finished product. But yet the "few dollars" is not quite the point? Then what is the point?

I find this wierd, since poo-pooing the idea of contributing a small story doesn't equate to the severity of selling a novel for a dollar. If she sold a short story for two dollars, she would beat the advance that PA gave her. Gak!

Tri

triceretops
12-04-2006, 02:39 PM
A PA author wanted to know why her book was turned down by the small press dept of Barnes and Noble. Her answer:

Many of us have done so, and the answer is always the same. They give various reasons to various authors, but the gist of it is that they won't place them. Actually, PA has said that the Small Press is for the self-published and publish on demand books, (sometimes called POD, but not print on demand because even traditional publishers use that method today as well as offset) not for PA or those who are considered traditional or established publishers. JA+

I hate it when PA outright lies to deflect the blame. So PA is not POD, eh?

Tri

Joanna_S
12-04-2006, 03:10 PM
They spend a lot of time over there discussing POD (publish on demand) vs. POD (print on demand). The bookstores don't care about the distinction, but the PAers care a great deal.

As for the small press, I wonder what would happen if he did offer everyone a dollar for a story. Would they see that as insulting?

The PA board is a strange and depressing place. Anyone with real information gets banned and those who swallow the Kool-Aid indoctrinate new members to the party line. It's all so very ugly.

-- Joanna

triceretops
12-04-2006, 03:25 PM
Joanna, it is indeed sad over there. I happen to like most of them, and hold nothing against other writers. Sleeping with PA, though, throws them on the wrong track to publishing, and sometimes I could really scream and throw a fit.

Below is part of a tribute to PA, but somehow this writer really slipped up and called a spade a spade. I don't know if he is aware that he unknowingly pinned the tail on the donkey that is PA. Also, he insulted his fellow writers in the same post. But somehow the truth came out:

PA published books of people who have a tough time writing their thoughts in a manner consistent with most writing standards, and whose ability in the use of grammar is severely lacking. Yes, PA didn’t read all the books submitted to them nor did they edit them as other publishing houses. PA rightly assumed that most authors would want to make sure their work is good enough for publication and would have it proof read. And, before publication, PA sends the proofs for final approval of the author. The entire final decision for publication is in the hands of the author. Often, perhaps due to the haste of wanting the book to be in print, the author may simply forego the necessary precautions, which they later regret, and that decision has given PA many black eyes.
I think it might be a good thing for PA to provide prospective authors with more insight and information about what is expected of them before making a final determination to publish their work. The prospective new authors need also to know in advance what is expected of them after the book is published. That is just my suggestion.

Joanna_S
12-04-2006, 03:40 PM
Wow, that is interesting. So if he recognizes all of that, why is he still with PA? That's what I don't understand. If you are aware of the truth and acknowledge it as truth, how do you go on believing in the company?

I feel as you do, Triceretops. The authors are the victims. I do find myself losing sympathy for the ones who vocally regurgitate the party line over and over again to new PA members. But the bulk of people over there are nothing more than victims of a scam and deserve our sympathy. It's an important disctinction.

-- Joanna

triceretops
12-04-2006, 03:59 PM
So correct. There's a ton of sweethearts over there, and we've got a batch of post victims here that I adore. No fowl, ever, ever.

That poster...I dunno. It might be the first time in history where infoblow has to step in there and delete their own tribute. Maybe he had a few glasses of wine and din knoe wha he wah sayin', or his subconcious muse took over the Stepford Scribe in him?

It was a nice slip up anyway.

Tri

spike
12-04-2006, 04:47 PM
This PA author has requested free stories for a publication from his fellow authors and is running into flak:

Our print issue are in fact free, and distributed in many outlets in the Chicago are--i.e. bookstores and coffeehouses.

We don't advertise on our site yet, but we are moving that way.

We hold free readings monthly where we give away copies of our issues.

Egos of the inexperience is something I don't understand. The idea behind writing is that someone will read your work--not monotary reimbursement. Our print circluation is something like 200 or so--small, yes, but growing--and our online edition get abouts 250 hits per month. That's pretty good readership for a tiny start-up only a few months old. I would argue that readership is more important than the few dollars you would receive for you story.

This is the answer from another:


The "few dollars" is not quite the point. Either you are a professional and write like one and expect recognition through payment (which shows your work has worth), or you are a dilettante who just wants to see the name in print.
I've always operated on the assumption that if it's worthy of print, it's worthy of compensation for the time, effort and expertise expended in turning out a finished product. I have to pay the plumber, the lawn mowing man, the electric company...who offer products/services just as I do. And they don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts.

The solicitor seems to think that writing should be a free exercise, and can't understand why no one wants to contribute for free.

The other comment is a taste in irony, since she explains that writing is a job and one should be entitled to compensation for the time, effort, and expertise expended in turning out a finished product. But yet the "few dollars" is not quite the point? Then what is the point?

I find this wierd, since poo-pooing the idea of contributing a small story doesn't equate to the severity of selling a novel for a dollar. If she sold a short story for two dollars, she would beat the advance that PA gave her. Gak!

Tri

This is the example of PA-think. These are the authors who are constantly yelling, "I AM A PUBLISHED AUTHOR". They are so afraid of being seen for what they are, printed, that they would never put anything in a non paying magazine or journal.

What's funny is how much these people are willing to pay for bookmarks and fliers, and how much time they are willing to spend on pointless promotions, they don't realize that a literary mag is great exposure. People who read these mags love stories. They will seek out an author they like.

Imagine if the editor of the mag said that he could give free advertising for each author's book in exchange for a short story for his mag. I'm sure they would all jump at the chance.

Of course, the readers would look for the author in a bookstore, so it wouldn't be much use for a PA author.

PVish
12-04-2006, 05:28 PM
From http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=18156
And, IMHO, Stephen King sells so many books simply because he writes them for the illiterate masses.

All this time I thought King sold so many books because he is published by a major publisher who gets his books into major bookstores, sends out advance reader copies to reviewers, promotes King, sends him on book tours—that sort of stuff.

LloydBrown
12-04-2006, 05:42 PM
Stephen King sells books because he writes well. He sells many *more* books because he's published by a major publisher.

I really disagree with any thought of illiterate people reading books. By definition, they don't. As far as writing on a low grade level...well, it worked for Hemingway. It seems to work for King. It worked for Faulkner. It worked for Dickens.

But maybe the PA author you quoted can show us how it's supposed to be done.

James D. Macdonald
12-04-2006, 06:05 PM
If you are aware of the truth and acknowledge it as truth, how do you go on believing in the company?

It's because the new author, informed of the facts, looks you dead in the eye and says, "Yes, but what about my book?"

PVish
12-05-2006, 07:58 AM
From the PAMB (probably won't last)
I had read this thread earlier and was not going to post. Then this afternoon I received a book from PA. I sat down to eagerly read and...am thoroughly dissapointed. The story is weak, the editing is bad and the writing is choppy.

This is a big, big problem with PA. I don't know how this story made it by anyone. And this has not been the first book I have read from PA that I have thought the same thing. So what does this lead me to believe about myself and my own skills? Not much right about now.

PA has opened the door for a lot of good writers, but in my opinion, has left it open for too many others. This will plague them until they start getting much more selective.

Yep.

Gravity
12-05-2006, 08:08 AM
I do believe that writer has just been shot with the Whammo Clue Gun (patent pending). Somebody set out a chair; we're about to welcome another one.

triceretops
12-05-2006, 08:31 AM
It has to be very tough to realize that your story was not read and appreciated, but instead Kinkoed with the rest of the crowd. I think one of the biggest frustrations for a writer, after sending out dozens of queries and partials, has to be, "WHEN will my manuscript be READ from page 1 to the end?"

PA authors can't grow if they're not edited (all the way around) and told what they're doing wrong. Incorrect information amongst them spreads like a small plague, until it engulfs the entire biological community.

Tri

J.S Greer
12-05-2006, 10:05 AM
Im amazed after reading through this thread at the absolute cult like mentality of PA "authors." Not to say that they are bad people at all, but that because they fail to do their research, and take things SOOO personally, they are walking down a path with no destination.

When I think of PA, Jonestown and Waco come to mind. :Shrug:

Christine N.
12-05-2006, 02:25 PM
That poster had a respone, that, like so many others, has a lot of words and really says nothing.

Just because you think your work deserves to be published doesn't mean anyone has to read it, nor like it. Why does every piece of drivel written 'deserve' publication?

Clue: it's not about you. I mean, yeah, you wrote it, and you love it, and you want the world to read it, but... the world may not agree.


Ack.

Christine N.
12-05-2006, 09:57 PM
Get it while it lasts.

I do not agree with you AT ALL. There are some people that just should not get puiblished unless they take their stuff to Kinkos and do it themselves. This does reflect poorly on all of us. Can't anyone just be honest about this. These boards are so sweet half the time it makes me want to brush my teeth over and over.

But hey, thanks for the encouragement about me and my work. Have you read my book?


It probably won't last long.. after all, can't have people knowing how the real world works. ETA: Too late! Already gone. And the poster cowtows to the powers at PA...

Thank you for your response and your understanding. YOU got it completely.

For the record, I have read 4 PA books this year. Two have been good, two, not so good. I have read many other books as well. Some have been good, and some, in fact my last book clubs choice which is in fact a current best seller, I found boring, boring. There is bad and good stuff everywhere. My wish for PA is that they get a couple of really big winners in their house.

I just ordered Everlasting Journey! I love the cover and look forward to the read.



Bolding mine. Always have to put the little "oh, please, I'm not bashing PA" bit in, once you've had all your posts deleted from a thread. The only posts to pull no punches and shine the light of day onto PA's slimy facade.

Shame.

triceretops
12-11-2006, 06:57 AM
I'm also curious as to when second editions and reprints of your book might become possible? I guess that too will be determined by how much demand there is for your works from readers.

I ask this because there is a new astronomical constant that I've introduced in my books that people are now commonly referring to as "Ahad's constant" http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif (Search Google)

The figures I have quoted are provisional estimates based on mathematical extrapolation. The reason being, no computer software is currently available that can integrate the light from 15 million stars across the entire night sky. But in future years it may be feasible to do this and some of the science in my story may also need revision. Hence, a second edition of First Ark to Alpha Centauri could incorporate the changes.

Okay, this is Centauri guy, and it took me a couple seconds in to recognize it. He also said that massive spaceships were really his idea and no one had used them up until his "ark" invention.

First off, reprints implies print runs, and you ain't in the offset world. And by second edition, do you mean sequel?

As for the rest of the post--that was a great publicity lead-in to showcase your theory, and the more I read it, the less it made sense. I take it that PA should reprint and second-edition you, because your extrapolations would be justifiably updated?

You need to meet up with the theory of everything guy, but don't try jacking HIS thread.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Tri

James D. Macdonald
12-11-2006, 07:18 AM
Nope. "Second edition" means "rewrite."

triceretops
12-11-2006, 05:10 PM
Yes, Unc. I believe you nailed it.


Tri

James D. Macdonald
12-11-2006, 05:26 PM
I did, indeed, Google on "Ahad's Constant." What I found was, not

...people are now commonly referring to as "Ahad's constant"

but rather a series of astro-physics messageboards where Ahad pops up to ask people to call his number "Ahad's constant" to which he gets a series of puzzled replies. He presses the case; replies become testier.

Here's a typical one (http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/printthread.php?Cat=0&Board=science&main=285587&type=thread).

Gravity
12-11-2006, 05:49 PM
Maybe "Ahad's constant" requires Doctor Emmet Brown's "one point five gigawatts of power." GREAT SCOTT!! :D

xhouseboy
12-11-2006, 05:52 PM
Okay, this is Centauri guy, and it took me a couple seconds in to recognize it. He also said that massive spaceships were really his idea and no one had used them up until his "ark" invention.

Tri

Ages since I've read it, but wasn't 'Rendezvous with Rama' about a massive spaceship?

triceretops
12-11-2006, 05:53 PM
It's interesting that he's pushing for a recognizable platform NOW, when perhaps he should have started with one to begin with. Yes, Einstein typically has his name associated with his theory of relativity. I can't help thinking that our young PA author is now seeking some type of devine breakthrough in the core sciences, and wants his name associated with his discoveries. I should have read about him in Scientific American, or Astronomy magazine. He might have something published somewhere, but I am not aware of it.

Being in print, especially in non-fiction, can ge a heady wine for a new author. Being in print with PA does nothing to validate one's expertise. In fact, being in print with PA distracts and undermines credibility since there are no fact-checkers or editors there to vett or verify any theories, claims, or proposals.

Cancer Boy is an excellent example of how a serious subject can be twisted and misrepresented in print, allowing dangerous claims and statements to put the public at risk . We all know what happened to Cancer Boy.

Tri