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Afinerosesheis
04-27-2008, 09:30 PM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584


The hash slinging, slash singing, no that's not right...The slashed pricing at PA thread is going down in the ranks. People are holding their breaths to see what will happen after 4/28. Some of them are pinning so much of their hopes on this sale. **SIGH** No one is going to just stumble upon the PA store by accident and start browsing the books there. Not gonna happen. The only ones who are buying are friends and family. And that's only if the site is not down.

PA authors tend to overlook the finer details in hopes of an imagined bigger picture. Their bigger picture: "It can happen if you work hard enough, make enough bookmarks, set up enough sites, buy all the books to just have on hand, stay positive, call all the bookstores, offer books on consignment..."
And if you don't sell enough/ and-or make enough money IT IS YOUR FAULT!!!
BS!

It's not gonna happen that way, ok it can. One in a million chance. I also would like to know of ANY PA book this has happened to and how the he// it happened. But it is not the norm, not with a PA book.

So they sit and await the outcome of the half price sale with bated breath. Their hopes are pinned on this one thing, anyone want to take a bet they don't extend the sale?

And how about that thread? When it begins to get ugly after 4/28 it will go POOF. Wonder if it will flounce?

cethklein
04-27-2008, 10:57 PM
Gee, it's true. If there's a good program on TV, you can be certain there's another going on at the same time. Too bad there's no schedule for the Internet.

I'm going to make an observation that some will not like, but it's true nonetheless. Regardless of what we do, sockpuppets, trolls, and PA flybys are going to occur. We shouldn't threaten our members with timeouts and suspensions for asking hard questions or using harsh words because that is part of their agenda. The interlopers want our people to do that to our members so that it appears we're no better at protecting free speech than others. They're trying to fragment our membership so that the components become weaker and less capable of standing up to them. Furthermore, they're going to use such public admonitions as evidence later to bolster any legal attacks they make. Trust me, I know they will. So, if you're going to caution anyone about their words, then do it in private so PA and others (in other topics) can't use that in a legal venue.

Agreed. Maybe we should either ignore these PA trolls or remove them once it becomes clear they are only here to pick fights and blow smoke up PA's ass. Arguing in PA's defense is one thing but being here solely to pick fights is another. If they weren't here none of this would be an issue.

I'm all about the opposing viewpoint being allowed to voice their opinions but when a person is just here to insult us for questioning PA, they have little value as far as I'm concerned. And they can't complain if we moderate their posts/ban them for singing PA's praises, at least we let some of it by here. Doing the opposite on PAMB would result in an instant ban. so they have no right to complain.

Queen of Swords
04-27-2008, 11:11 PM
I'm all about the opposing viewpoint being allowed to voice their opinions but when a person is just here to insult us for questioning PA, they have little value as far as I'm concerned.

I agree. It's one thing if a person is an active, participating member of this site and this community. It's another if they pop into this forum only to make some uncalled-for personal comments and then pop out again until their next session.

Afinerosesheis
04-27-2008, 11:14 PM
I agree. It's one thing if a person is an active, participating member of this site and this community. It's another if they pop into this forum only to make some uncalled-for personal comments and then pop out again until their next session.

AND delete all their posts before they leave. ~duh~ =)

Queen of Swords
04-27-2008, 11:18 PM
AND delete all their posts before they leave. ~duh~ =)

Well, that's just following an example set by PA. Infocenter deletes posts there, PA authors delete posts here. :)

tlblack
04-27-2008, 11:31 PM
I came across this while doing a search for something entirely different. http://www.fictionforum.net/writers/toolbox/a-look-inside-publishing-with-publish-america-169.html
I wonder if they still want feedback even though this is from 2002. I know it's old but I hadn't seen it before.

TwentyFour
04-27-2008, 11:58 PM
I notice Chalkley does list PA

PublishAmerica is a traditional publishing company whose primary goal is to encourage and promote the works of new, previously undiscovered writers. Like more mainstream publishers, PublishAmerica pays its authors advances and royalties, makes its books available in both the United States and Europe through all bookstores, and never charges any fees for its services.

To obtain your copy of For Authorized Eyes Only:The Retirement Project now, before the book is available in stores, order online at either: www.publishedauthors.net/bobcook or www.publishamerica.com.

We want to hear from you!http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/CompanyDetail.aspx?CompanyID=233750902&cs=QEN7sF2oc

Jersey Chick
04-28-2008, 12:28 AM
What was taken out of context?

For the last time, there was no attack on Mr. Stodghill. None. No one said he's a lousy person, or a lousy writer or anything of that nature. What was said is that he does not give out advice that is 100% correct. How, in any way, shape, or form, is that an attack??? Answer that.

You saw it (for reasons known only to you) as an attack - and you came back with insults and names - you called us unprofessional and not serious writers. What is that???? And when you're called out, you've deleted your posts. Just sweep it away and it never happened - but you were taken out of context. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm sick of the bickering. It's unproductive and childish and frankly, not worth my getting in trouble over here. I like it here - this entire board is a great place and I certainly don't want to end up shooting myself in the foot over one person.

But hey - if you see nothing wrong with someone spreading misinformation... :Shrug:

cethklein
04-28-2008, 12:28 AM
I deleted my posts, and will continue to do so, because I find it disconcerting and annoying to have them taken out of context and splashed about the Internet.

I posted yesterday in defense of a fine writer under verbal attack by AW posters for no good reason. It seems to me that if dissuading uninformed writers from contracting with PA is, truly, the purpose of this thread, a concentrated effort ought to be made to stay on topic and dispense with personal attacks.

In not a single post ever made by me have I supported PA. Yet, by applying the wisdom of serial posters who dominate this thread, consistent rants promote the notion that I embrace the PA business model. To be told by uninformed pundits what I think or do not think is offensive and irritating, and rudely presumptuous.

Again, if PA is your target, concentrate your aim at the folks who run the company and lay off its writers. To publicly condemn a writer with whom you disagree is not an inalienable right. It's an expression of inexcusable arrogance.

The title of this thread is "PAMB and its quotes". So yes the main gist here is to discuss said quotes. Sorry if that wasn't clear. and if you are so irritated then why are you still posting here? So far you have yet to make ANY contribution to this thread other than a bunch of half-baked insults (which become all the more disruptive when you delete them). I'd rather see your normal posts than a string of "this post deleted by W. Lane Rogers".

But again, what contribution to you plan to make here? Also, do you think we don't know you're a regular on PAMB? we've all seen your posts blowing smoke up their asses there. Making posts here then deleting this makes it seem like you're not very confident in what you're saying. If you have something to say, say it.


Yet, by applying the wisdom of serial posters who dominate this thread, consistent rants promote the notion that I embrace the PA business model.

I could link you to dozens of posts on PAMB where you dO embrace their business model. Again, do you think we don't look there? That's what this whole topic is about. For Pete's sake if you're going to act like you never said something at least use a different username here than you use on PAMB. We've SEEN your posts.

And yes we are "pundits" if you will. But at least we are trying to educate people about PA. What are YOU doing? You on the other hand are leading these "new authors" on on PAMB. for someone who claims to care so much about these authors, why mislead them? You're hurting these authors, we're helping them. EVERY ONE of the handful of posts you have made were inflammatory attacks on people here.

Again, what contribution are you making here?

Queen of Swords
04-28-2008, 12:32 AM
I deleted my posts, and will continue to do so, because I find it disconcerting and annoying to have them taken out of context and splashed about the Internet.

Then perhaps you should take that into consideration before making those posts in the first place.

Fortunately the quote feature preserves everything you have said, so I fear you will continue to be disconcerted and annoyed at the logical consequences of your own actions.

I posted yesterday in defense of a fine writer under verbal attack by AW posters for no good reason.

You appear to have misunderstood, Lane. Let me spell it out very carefully.

1. No one is debating whether your friend is a good writer or not.

Whether he is a good writer or a fine writer or a mediocre writer is irrelevant. His defenders keep bringing it up as though that's what we're discussing, perhaps because they genuinely haven't understood what we're talking about, perhaps because it's easier to defend him as a writer than it is to defend him as someone who knows what he's talking about when it comes to agents and publishing.

2. The good reason for mentioning and deconstructing his inaccurate claims is to warn people who might otherwise be misled.

It's possible, of course, that you do not consider helping people to be a good enough reason to correct Mr. Stodghill. But I'm afraid you would be in a minority there.

It seems to me that if dissuading uninformed writers from contracting with PA is, truly, the purpose of this thread, a concentrated effort ought to be made to stay on topic and dispense with personal attacks.

You might want to take the plank out of your own eye there. I've seen plenty of personal attacks and insults from you.

In not a single post ever made by me have I supported PA.

I can point out posts of yours where you have tried to mock people who post here and where you have implied that we're too busy here to do actual writing. The quote feature is an excellent thing.

You may not be saying, "Thank God for PublishAmerica" in your sig, but what conclusion do you expect us to draw from frequent snide remarks towards people who dare to criticize PA?

Yet, by applying the wisdom of serial posters who dominate this thread, consistent rants promote the notion that I embrace the PA business model. To be told by uninformed pundits what I think or do not think is offensive and irritating, and rudely presumptuous.

Just curious - are you an informed pundit or an uninformed pundit?

Again, if PA is your target, concentrate your aim at the folks who run the company and lay off its writers.

When its writers spread misinformation and when they dismiss and browbeat people who don't share their feelings about PA, then you can damn well bet that I'll be sure to point this out and criticize it.

To publicly condemn a writer with whom you disagree is not an inalienable right. It's an expression of inexcusable arrogance.

To come to a board for what is apparently the purpose of insulting people with whom you disagree is not an inalienable right. It's an expression of arrogance and hypocrisy.

cethklein
04-28-2008, 12:43 AM
And for reference Mr. Rogers, we aren't attacking 99% of the authors on PAMB. We're calling out the small selection of blowhards who are misleading authors there, either out of malice or incompetence. (and for the latter, if one does not now how publishing works they should not try to advise others.)

The fact this topic has gone 391 pages should tell you something. This topic is here to try and educate people not on the actions of PA (there's a separate topic for that) but to warn users of the misleading (and often out right lies) told on PAMB.

Again most users on PAMB are sadly the innocent victims. But a selection of people are misleading those people Based on what I have read on PAMB, you are one of those who are misleading these people. So don't come here and shed crocodile tears and act like you're defending these people, because it would seem to be the polar opposite.

PAMB is like the blind leading the blind. Consider AW the seeing-eye-dog.

cethklein
04-28-2008, 12:55 AM
Hey check it out. Looks like one slipped past PA's censor Nazis back in 2005 and is still there to be viewed. I typed in "absolutewrite" into PAMB's search engine and it came up.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=3933&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=absolutewrite&start=30

These people just won't stop. I got this e-mail yesterday.
Tell me what you think they're trying to say.

"I just wanted to inform you of the following...
You might be interested in the site: www.absolutewrite.com and reading the forums.
Especially the "Bewares and Background Checks" section, which includes "The Neverending PublishAmerica Thread".
Sorry I had to be the one to inform you, but it's better to know truth, than not know at all!
Good luck with all your work!, and blessings 2 U,
always"

Afinerosesheis
04-28-2008, 12:58 AM
Who in the livin' hell does the PAMB HELP? Answer that please?

cethklein
04-28-2008, 01:00 AM
Who in the livin' hell does the PAMB HELP? Answer that please?

Miranda Prather.

Mel
04-28-2008, 01:16 AM
If you take the time to read the entire thread you'll see this is nothing new. Many from PA have come here, said their piece and eventually left.

Different words, same meaning. In other words, same old, same old.

This small section of the Cooler serves a purpose. It isn't going away anytime soon.

cethklein
04-28-2008, 01:20 AM
Oh I know. But somehow deep down I hope one of these PA trolls will actually take what we have to say to heart. Throw enough shit at the wall, eventually some of it will stick.

Mel
04-28-2008, 01:37 AM
I think one or two, maybe more, did in the end. Read what Rose says and how hard it is to face the reality of PA. Her posts really do say a lot about the experience.

And, we have no idea how many have read this thread, along with the others, but decide not to post. Instead they follow whatever path works for them. Hopefully, that means they are still writing and working at getting published.

Also, there are some here who have gotten published after their PA experience and are members here. There is life after PA and they are proof of it.

ETA: Trolls are trolls. Best to ignore them and move on.

Afinerosesheis
04-28-2008, 02:30 AM
I have shared my experiences on the board. It has not been an easy thing nor has it been prideful. I admit that I made a mistake, that takes a lot of nerve. I did it to help someone who deserves better for their work. The fact remains that some only actually hear what they want to hear. Others are just looking for some BS drama to occupy their time. Hopefully maybe someone can actually learn from what some of us have went through.

Queen of Swords
04-28-2008, 02:37 AM
Good for you! (http://zanadib.blogspot.com/)

Not a PAMB quote, but this author has guts.

I have had many comments about PA and I agree with you all! I am very upset and not happy with them. My first royality check was for $3.19, and said that I only sold 2 books. When I know for a fact that I sold more then that! Other authors have been coming out of the wood work telling me about their nightmare with PA. It makes me wish that I had known all of this before I signed my contract. But its a leason learned and all I can do is work my hardest on not letting other new authors getting in the same trap! So if you are a new writer reading this think before signing with them!

Some PA authors learn from the experience and try to warn others about it. They have my admiration and support.

BarbJ
04-28-2008, 02:48 AM
Question: Does an indecent, ranting AW pundit carry the same fearsome weight as a nasty toady-bug? I kinda like being a toady-bug...

'Nother question: How many posts does it take to become a serial poster? (How many posts would a post poster post if a post poster could post posts?)

Afinerose - You mentioned somewhere that having been sucked in by PA sometimes makes you feel "less worthy" than other writers. Not so, sister writer. For one, I think every writer, new or established, feels that way at moments. "Dark hours of the soul" moments. For two, YOU LEFT. You weren't content with the PA RPG, and you are striving for a goal instead of settling for ... well, with PA, pretty much nothing. Be proud, because as has been proven by posts both here and on PAMB, it can be hard to admit one was wrong and climb out of the rut.

Jersey, I hope the lurkers are reading what you have pointed out yet again: PA's business plan is not to sell to the public. They themselves have stated, and their actions and written words have verified, their money is made by selling to their own authors. Period. PA is not going to take any action to help their authors sell books. None whatsoever;why should they?. They will simply try to get their authors to buy even more. That's their mission statement. Lurkers, accept it or leave PA.

JulieB
04-28-2008, 02:55 AM
'Nother question: How many posts does it take to become a serial poster? (How many posts would a post poster post if a post poster could post posts?)

Another question: If I post while eating breakfast, does that make me a cereal poster? ;-)

cethklein
04-28-2008, 03:14 AM
Ok this is getting old. This Rogers guy is still posting something then waiting until he's certain we've read it then deletes it. Does he somehow think the moderators aren't seeing what he posts? And as Queen of Swords said, we're all quoting them so it's not like it's a secret. I can only think of one reason why a person would flood a message board with posts and quickly delete them.

Rolling Thunder
04-28-2008, 03:36 AM
I'm done with the Trolling as well. Lane's gone. Remember the policy on discussing a banned member, please.

Afinerosesheis
04-28-2008, 04:20 AM
Yeah, I know why. =)

Anyways...BarbJ, thanks for the post. I did leave PA all but on paper. I still put my book on sig and myspace, other than that I am done with them. Still, two years after signing I am recovering from the after effects of all the stress and confusion. Signing with PA puts your brain in a blender and purees it until you wonder why you'd ever written anything at all. But it didn't cost me a dime to be published! **SNORT**

Thanks BarbJ and many others at AW who understand and support me and other writers who have been through this unfortunate experience. I do have my less than worthy moments, but at the same time I am proud to have awakened to reality. Better late then never.

This is a good place.

Jersey Chick
04-28-2008, 05:13 AM
There's no shame in making a mistake. None at all. I know it sucks to admit to it, but really - that's the whole thing about PA. They should be ashamed because they are there to prey on people who, for whatever reason, don't know that that's not how publishing is. They feed on dreams that are already difficult enough to achieve - and by making it seem so easy, they lure you right in. Yes, it's easy to sit back and say, "Well, if you had just done the research..." but in reality, it's easy to see how someone can get caught up in their rotten web.

I remember very well what it was like, getting rejections that never read beyond "Dear Author..." I remember thinking that, if only, someone would take a chance...

I knew very little about PA before I joined here - who knows, maybe I'd have fallen into it as well. I've made my own mistakes as well - but fortunately for me, they didn't turn on me. They were just something that, if I'd known then what I know now - well, my decisions would've been different.

For any and all ex-PA authors who wander over here, I say bravo - and don't ever give up - you never know what tomorrow might bring...

James D. Macdonald
04-28-2008, 05:27 AM
There's never a good reason to flame anyone.

JimmyD1318
04-28-2008, 05:35 AM
Yeah, I know why. =)

Anyways...BarbJ, thanks for the post. I did leave PA all but on paper. I still put my book on sig and myspace, other than that I am done with them. Still, two years after signing I am recovering from the after effects of all the stress and confusion. Signing with PA puts your brain in a blender and purees it until you wonder why you'd ever written anything at all. But it didn't cost me a dime to be published! **SNORT**

Thanks BarbJ and many others at AW who understand and support me and other writers who have been through this unfortunate experience. I do have my less than worthy moments, but at the same time I am proud to have awakened to reality. Better late then never.

This is a good place.

We are glad to have you hear Mel! A bag of POPCORN for you and my other friend Jersey! Aww...to heck with...POPCORN for everyone! I love all of you guys. Enjoy!:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn ::popcorn:
(Dang! There goes all of my secret stash...(SIGH).)

DaveKuzminski
04-28-2008, 05:37 AM
Well, I guess Stodghill will be over next to get his AW immunization shot.

I shouldn't post more about this, but it's something the others already know and are using so I'm not revealing anything. They're gaming AW in order to weaken it. That's right. By coming over here, they're making it so you can't comment about their inaccurate postings over on the PAMB. Sooner or later, even Miranda, Willem, and Larry will come over here to get banned just so their names can't be mentioned by AW. It's one of the reasons I've always opposed banning.

If you want a better solution, take away their privileges to delete their own messages or set up the system to automatically make a copy in a backup that they can't touch and don't ever ban them. Then when they try to counter any criticism, their words will be there to haunt them. That alone will discourage many of them from coming here to start trouble since they won't have the ability to claim they said something different. In other words, make them have to live with what they claim in this forum. Otherwise, the current policy will lead to big problems because you'll either have to ban valuable members or you'll have to start making exceptions and that in itself will bring about a loss of credibility and integrity.

Yeah, sure, some folks probably think I'm a hot head ready to argue at the drop of a hat. If so, you'd be neglecting that I actually plan ahead for many of these events and situations. Look at the criteria on the P&E site for negative recommendations. It's dynamic, not static. I give it serious thought and try to avoid snap judgments that result in problems down the road. When new problems emerge, then the rules are adapted. I think that's what is needed here. The AW rules need to be reevaluated for the damage they can cause to AW and its members. Otherwise, it won't be just a possibility, it will become a reality.

kullervo
04-28-2008, 06:46 AM
I don't mind Lane coming around. It hots up the joint, as they used to say. If he finds our saying that Mr. Stodghill occasionally hands out inaccurate information about publishing to constitute an ad hominem attack on that gentleman, I would suggest he study argumentation. If he thinks that writers are all kind and professional to each other, and to be less so is a sign of an amateur, I would commend his attention to any writers conference. To the speakers, not the attendees.

Or I could just promise to be as kind and thoughtful to my fellow writers as Faulkner and Hemingway were to their mutual mentor, Sherwood Anderson.

Afinerosesheis
04-28-2008, 06:59 AM
Jimmy, thanks for the popcorn. I love all you, too. You've all been great. ~Really~

ResearchGuy
04-28-2008, 07:04 AM
. . . people who, for whatever reason, don't know that that's not how publishing is. . . .
Of whom there seems to be an endless supply. The need is education. Relentless education. And then if someone wants to pick a vanity press, knowing the alternatives and the implications, fine. That's like knowing nutritional values and requirements and nonetheless picking just the fried onion rings, pepperoni pizza, and chocolate cake off the buffet table. It's their funeral.

--Ken

kullervo
04-28-2008, 07:09 AM
Even poor Lulu was shunted off to the edge at the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books at UCLA. One small display tent in the northeast corner of the sprawling festival. PA was nowhere to be seen. 130,000 eager readers packed onto the campus for two days with money to spend. No PA.

No, they are not interested in selling to the public.

Afinerosesheis
04-28-2008, 07:49 AM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26656


Ok people why is my book not able to be had at B&N ???

Anybody else have that problem Info Center???

since it's POD that should not be posted at all..

I also noticed B&N has removed the synopsis to my book. It just keeps getting better and better! =)
Who the hell is going to buy a high priced book with no synopsis? DUH


PS Sorry about all my ranting and cursing today. Some days all this really gets to me.

Medievalist
04-28-2008, 09:43 AM
They're gaming AW in order to weaken it. That's right. By coming over here, they're making it so you can't comment about their inaccurate postings over on the PAMB.

If you have any actual evidence of this behavior, rather than public speculation and naive but unsupported assertions, I strongly urge you to send it to MacAllister Stone. Otherwise, you're just stirring the pot.


If you want a better solution, take away their privileges to delete their own messages or set up the system to automatically make a copy in a backup that they can't touch and don't ever ban them.

Two things: First, for a writer, you have a startling reliance on vague pronoun references--one that borders on paranoia.

Second, what makes you think you know anything about AW Water Cooler policies and procedures? Do you have some direct link to Mod and Admin decisions? Do you have any sort of professional expertise or training in network management? Or community management or support?

Queen of Swords
04-28-2008, 11:00 AM
Remember the policy on discussing a banned member, please.

Is it still possible to quote from a post that a banned member might make on the PAMB, as long as we don't say anything about the member and only discuss the post?

MacAllister
04-28-2008, 11:11 AM
Queen, yes. Certainly. We're just not going to circle and crow and do a pile-on, after the fact.

I'd like to remind everyone here that we have a NUMBER of valued members who first showed up on AW as PA apologists.

While Mr. Kuzminski has certainly made it more than clear on any number of occasions that he resents being required to behave with civility towards such people, regardless of their behavior, there are excellent reasons for AW's code of behavior and it's served us very well indeed, year after year.

I really don't much care about how Dave thinks he could run things better -- in fact, I'd be absolutely delighted for him to go and do so. If Dave wants to set up his own forum, I'll transfer the whole damned PA subforum over there and wish him well.

And anyone else who just feels too stifled over the respect requirement is equally welcome to take advantage of the same offer.

Queen of Swords
04-28-2008, 11:15 AM
That was a quick response! Thanks. :)

Khazarkhum
04-28-2008, 01:18 PM
There are times when I feel like the kid who finds out about the party too late to go.

I don't much care for drive-by insults & posts. It's so high-school, where the "cool kids" went and TPd someone's house, or threw water balloons at the Principal.

In a way it's almost like a coup, the way the Crow warriors would try & touch an enemy and then count those touches as coups. Come over here, upset and loaded with TP, make a quick fuss, then run, dragging your posts back with you. Woot! You did ot! A new feather & a notch on the coup-stick.

It's heartbreaking at times to read the stories of the people who hope that PA will be an answer to their prayers, whether they prayed for readers, money, or the sheer joy of seeing your book on the shelf of a real, live bookstore. And then you see the dog-in-the-manger attitude of Lane or his friends, those who won't or can't get better and will be damned if they'll see anyone else succeed.

It's a sickening mess, high school cliquishness lurking beneath the veneer of "free expression". That they will be banned from their own board for asking the same questions that are pondered here daily is an irony completely lost on all but the cleverest.

cethklein
04-28-2008, 03:08 PM
I don't really see that many out-and-out flames and insults here. There are a few but I think most of this is very relevant. I still think this thread is an invaluable tool. It allows people to see the misinformation PA "expert authors" are posting on PAMB. I still don't think the vast majority of PAMB posters are posting their "advise" out of intention to mislead but it happens due to ignorance. (Some are malicious I think.)

I still firmly believe this thread and others here have saved a LOT of people from PA's claws. I may well be one of them (well I doubt I'd have gone with PA anyway as I had heard about them from other sources, but you never know.)

I agree though, I am VERY surprised Miranda herself hasn't popped up here yet. I used to think she was here lurking but i doubt it, from what I can tell (based on reports from others) she strikes me a a confrontational type and would have spoken up by now.

Afinerosesheis
04-28-2008, 04:03 PM
Someone claiming to be Miranda herself was poking around here a few months ago. I can't remember her username. She posted right on this thread. I don't think anyone believed it was really her.

BTW I joined AW a year ago today/ Do I get a prize or something? =) It has been a very informative year to say the least.

tlblack
04-28-2008, 04:36 PM
Someone claiming to be Miranda herself was poking around here a few months ago. I can't remember her username. She posted right on this thread. I don't think anyone believed it was really her.

BTW I joined AW a year ago today/ Do I get a prize or something? =) It has been a very informative year to say the least.


MNP was the username.

Congrats on your first year here. :partyguy: Now where's Jimmy with that popcorn?

JimmyD1318
04-28-2008, 04:43 PM
MNP was the username.

Congrats on your first year here. :partyguy: Now where's Jimmy with that popcorn?

Did somebody say the magic word? Yep...they sure did! Here you go Mel! My last bag until I pop up some more!:popcorn: Also...I baked you a cake!:Cake:(POPCORN FLAVORED OF COURSE!) Enjoy!

DaveKuzminski
04-28-2008, 04:59 PM
I really don't much care about how Dave thinks he could run things better ...


I offered a suggestion and a valid criticism. Nothing more. Run AW how you want.

I receive suggestions and criticism over at P&E. I consider those on an equal basis and answer civilly. In fact, the only individuals who complain publicly about my responses are generally those who don't like their sites being "not recommended." Otherwise, many of those suggestions result in refinements of the criteria that P&E uses. I think some even originated in posts on this forum.

By the way, I've even received emails complaining about posts made by other individuals on AW because the correspondents thought I owned AW. If you want, I'll start forwarding those to you instead of advising them on how the board operates and that I didn't own it though I was flattered that they believed I did.

Jersey Chick
04-28-2008, 05:19 PM
Here's ya go, Jimmy! I was at the popcorn store in the mall yesterday! **drags out oil barrel sized container** This should hold you a while.

The last few weeks have been eventful, that's for sure. I've been trying hard to hold my tongue and keep it civil (or would it be hold my fingers??) I've edited and re-edited posts in order to keep myself from getting into trouble - and it hasn't been easy, BTW - I was born with a big mouth and an extremely sarcastic mind. :D But like I said, it's so not worth risking my getting into trouble.

For every troll who comes along, there's someone who's found help here, or has avoided falling into the muck - which makes the occasion flaming dolt easier to deal with, IMHO.

JimmyD1318
04-28-2008, 05:34 PM
Here's ya go, Jimmy! I was at the popcorn store in the mall yesterday! **drags out oil barrel sized container** This should hold you a while.

The last few weeks have been eventful, that's for sure. I've been trying hard to hold my tongue and keep it civil (or would it be hold my fingers??) I've edited and re-edited posts in order to keep myself from getting into trouble - and it hasn't been easy, BTW - I was born with a big mouth and an extremely sarcastic mind. :D But like I said, it's so not worth risking my getting into trouble.

For every troll who comes along, there's someone who's found help here, or has avoided falling into the muck - which makes the occasion flaming dolt easier to deal with, IMHO.

Ohhh...WOW! Thanks Jersey! <MUNCH! MUNCH! MUNCH! MUNCH!>:popcorn: Life is good! I agree with Jersey, it can be hard to keep one's fingers from going crazy sometimes. But I just don't want to stoop to the troll's level.

Queen of Swords
04-28-2008, 06:32 PM
Here's something confusing (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26670)

The author with the sweet dear autistic husband posted on the PAMB about promoting her third book, so I went to her website to check it out.

My third book "Victory after Abuse" will be out later this year, Lord willing! I need to find a Christian agent and a publisher! I have no extra money! Any pointers on how to find one would be great!

I... don't get it. I couldn't find the book on Amazon under her name, so maybe she means she completed the manuscript?

On the PAMB thread, she said,

I have sole 250 of my first book "Joys and Sorrows of Living with Adult Autism". I have two more Autism talks coming up! Imagine what I could do if I had money and connections to market!

Imagine what you could do if you had a publisher, in other words.

stormie
04-28-2008, 07:16 PM
There are so many wonderful books out there, pubbed by trade/commercial publishers about autism, either autobiographical or biographical. <Sigh> It's not a matter of money or connections to market a book about autism, but a matter of great writing and a different take on it. I find it sad that she thinks you need money to get a book published. Good ol' PublishAnything.

(I also wonder about this recent book of hers: Victory After Abuse. I hope it's not about her sweet dear autistic husband again.)

ResearchGuy
04-28-2008, 07:34 PM
. . .she thinks you need money to get a book published. . . .
I would wager that most Americans think that. I hear that sort of thing time and again from folks I know. That is why the pickings are so easy for the vanity press that does not charge the fees up front (PA), but instead folds them into jacked-up list price + pressure to buy in bulk, a folding-in that goes unrecognized by the authors. Add to that the nominal "advance" and the rest of the distractions from the core transaction and voila, a model that works.

--Ken

P.S. the author does not get off without cost in normal commercial publishing, either, of course (costs to support oneself while writing, maybe for many years, costs of submitting queries and manuscripts, costs for research, etc. -- but no payments to the publisher).

cethklein
04-28-2008, 07:43 PM
Ok I read the first page of her autism book on Amazon's Search Inside. Here is the first sentence:

I met a pastor of a church in Berryville while working in receiving at Wal-Mart in Harrison he had invited me to hear him preach.

This proves PA did ZERO editing. Here is an error in the first bloody sentence (run-on sentence). They teach you about this stuff in the friggin second grade. This woman should be sickened. Or maybe she doesn't care. If it were my book I know I would care.

Gillhoughly
04-28-2008, 07:45 PM
Send that poor woman to Lulu! Tell her about beta readers and spell check!

Someone explain to her that you don't have to pay to get published.

The number one question I keep hearing from neos is "How did you get the money together to get your book into print?" I've torn my hair out to the point of baldness at the ignorance.

PA presents themselves as a "Christian" friendly publisher.

I suppose they'd be right at home with that lot that plundered the New World and slaughtered all non-Christians for their gold back in the day. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif

cethklein
04-28-2008, 07:58 PM
A humorous follow-up to that is this seperate post:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26335

I for one am not ashamed of my book or the quality of it. I have purchased many PA titles and have not found them to be inferior in any way. I

You clearly haven't read "Big Bertha's" autism book.

knew when I signed my contract that PA would make my book available to all on line bookstores.

You thought that, you did not know that. By "online stores", PA means "PublishAmerica.com"

I knew I had to be the one to shake hands and meet the store managers to try to get my book on the shelves. It takes work.

Yes it does take work. Sending an un-edited manuscript to PA to print it for you is NOT "work." Perfecting said manuscript and going through the submission/rejection process is work Typing something up in MS Word and getting some blowhard to print it out for you is not.
You have to be well known or know people to get a hook in.

Yeah, those "people" are called "agents" and "publishers".

There are many people here who are making a success of themselves doing just that.

No there aren't.

kullervo
04-28-2008, 08:04 PM
Another observation, as this particular PA author has returned to the PAMB. I think she does have a contribution to make to the discussion of Autism. There is certainly an emerging population of adults diagnosed late with Autism and Asperger's Syndrome. But books are only one way to join the dialogue, and PA is certainly the least effective way, after talking to yourself.

I think it is a shame that she did not choose to blog, rather than bury her thoughts and experiences with PA. She could have joined a society of bloggers on these topics. She may even have found help and helped others, including her husband. And her problems with spelling and grammar would have mattered far less.

On another note, I will be interested to see what happens for her in the next royalty cycle. I hope InfoCensor has flagged her file for at least a semi-accurate payment.

Jersey Chick
04-28-2008, 08:07 PM
Some almost-accurate info:

It should be remembered that the end game isn't to get your book into a bookstore, it's to get someone to buy it once it's there. Trying to get it into bookstores throughout the country requires a sales force such as those that make the rounds for Harper, Collins and Random House and all the other trade publishers.
Yes - but in order for anyone to buy it, it must be there in the first place. Without that, you can guarantee no one will buy it. PA tries their damndest to make sure that doesn't happen.

So the question is this: is it worth the time and effort to get a book into just a few bookstores? If it is of local or regional interest, the answer is a definite yes. If it's a genre fiction book, well . . . Because your publisher is doing jack squat to generate any interest - outside of the author him/herself, of course...

Borders recently announced that it will be changing from displaying spines to displaying covers. That's bad news for writers other than those already well known or the myriad of celebrity authors.
I could be wrong here, but I thought Borders was merely increasing the number of face-outs - not making all their stock face-out. In which case, it will dimish some shelf space - but that certainly doesn't mean new authors are SOL... or am I wrong on that?

kullervo
04-28-2008, 08:54 PM
What do some of these folks think happens when "old" writers die? They are so vehement in their claims that new writers have no chance to be sold, shelved, and bought. What a great chicken-and-egg problem.

What do they say about the brilliant Jhumpa Lahiri, whose first book (a "can't be published!" collection of short stories), was bought, published, and went on to win the Pulitzer Prize. How was that not impossible?

Oh, right, her book was astonishingly wonderful. Hardly seems fair to the rest of us, does it? Perhaps we should deny it ever happened.

Monkey
04-28-2008, 09:05 PM
This is a bit off-topic, having more to do with the thread itself than the thread's subject, but I feel it ought to be said...

This thread keeps authors from getting ground into dust in the author mill known as PA.

Fly-by attacks and baseless trolling cannot weaken the purpose of this thread, and thanks to the mods, it can't even damage the effectiveness of the thread.

No matter what a troll or appologist says, it can't get a single AW member banned. If the troll/appologist/fly-byer gets themselves banned, we can still quote what they say over at the PAMB, we just can't - and don't need to - dogpile them here.

A poor response to such attacks, however, *can* cause disruption, bannings, and even shut-downs of this thread. That's bad...not the end of the world for those who post here, but a tragedy for those who could have learned from what's being said.

Having found out that I was involved in a scam from one of AW's B&BC threads, I can say from experience that the longer the thread, the more recent the last post, and the more people from the publisher being discussed chime in, the stronger the effect of the thread overall.

Lets keep this thread active, current, and useful! No troll has the power to stop us!

(In other words, the IGNORE button is our friend.)

Afinerosesheis
04-28-2008, 09:06 PM
There are many people here who are making a success of themselves doing just that.

Where are they?

Jimmy, Thanks for the cake!!! =)

James D. Macdonald
04-29-2008, 01:55 AM
I would wager that most Americans think that. I hear that sort of thing time and again from folks I know.


That has to be the single most common question I get: "How much did you pay to get published?"

It's astounding. But that's the way it goes.

It's part of why I formulated Yog's Law.

Christine N.
04-29-2008, 02:17 AM
I just fielded an e-mail from a man who wants to publish his picture books. He said he had submitted to Dorrance, and was $6,000 too much to pay? Was the amount normal?? Ack! They told him they were a 'new company'.

Don't worry, I set him straight. He'll be looking for real publishers from now on. At least he asked first.

stormie
04-29-2008, 04:27 AM
Ach! Okay, here's one: I know a woman who lives in my town who has been published by Simon&Schuster (with her first PB). Her second and third: she proudly told me she went with Dorrance. I asked her to repeat who she went with. Yup, Dorrance. Dorrance of the "you end up paying thousands to be pubbed." We were surrounded by people and I didn't want to spew my coffee all over the place so I just nodded and excused myself. This woman does have money, and maybe no place to spend it? I'm still perplexed over it.

(Sorry this is off-topic.)

triceretops
04-29-2008, 05:13 AM
The autism lady is actually a member here, and I remember seeing a post of hers, where she's asking a question. I don't remember the thread, but the user name was Bigberthaevans, I believe. I can't find it.

They say that the spines out techniquie has increased sales something like 25% to 30%, so it's hardly detrimental to authors. I think they go through the stock and rotate the covers at certain intervals.

Tri

cethklein
04-29-2008, 05:31 AM
Well I hope for her own sake she still searches here. She'd have been far better served just going to LuLu. At least she'd know what she's getting. It's cases like hers that make PA look even worse, what with them taking advantage of her like that. They can't even be bothered to read so much as the first sentence and edit it. That's pathetic.

Dave.C.Robinson
04-29-2008, 05:33 AM
Some almost-accurate info:

I could be wrong here, but I thought Borders was merely increasing the number of face-outs - not making all their stock face-out. In which case, it will dimish some shelf space - but that certainly doesn't mean new authors are SOL... or am I wrong on that?

It wasn't a Borders, but I used to manage a bookstore. Our policy was to face as many titles as possible because they generally sold better. As a rule of thumb it was two or fewer copies were spined; three or more were faced. Covers do sell books and this helped increase sales.

It's really not that big a change.

Many bookstores go in cycles where they start with a few books all faced at the start of a quarter, and have several titles spined by the end.

ResearchGuy
04-29-2008, 08:35 AM
. . . Yup, Dorrance. Dorrance of the "you end up paying thousands to be pubbed." . . .
If not ten$ of thou$and$. Incredible. Astounding. Bizarre.

--Ken

Khazarkhum
04-29-2008, 12:49 PM
That has to be the single most common question I get: "How much did you pay to get published?"

It's astounding. But that's the way it goes.

It's part of why I formulated Yog's Law.

My niece, desperate to be published, prove herself as an author, all the usual dreams & desires. She's asked me time & again how much it costs to be edited & published. And no matter how many times I tell her that real publishers pay you, her mom, classmates, coworkers & instructors tell her it costs money to be published because it's "impossible" to break in. She's prime PA fodder, I'm afraid. :cry:

Queen of Swords
04-29-2008, 12:56 PM
An appeal to PA authors (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=90)

This is from D. K. Christi, who seems to know there's a problem but who places the responsibility squarely on the authors.

Please, please, PA authors, let's stop being anxious to see our books in print and more anxious to see them in perfection. I learned my lesson. If we want PA to have the positive reputation for great authors that it deserves, we still need to fix those errors and give them every opportunity to edit our work also.

IF PA is a "traditional publisher", then it shouldn't be humbly waiting for you to grant it an opportunity to edit anything.

Every author's book is PR for our own as we well know.

Huh? The last book I bought was Perdido Street Station by China Mieville. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that's PR for is more books by Mr Mieville. If the book is good, I'm afraid I don't notice details like the publisher's name unless I'm specifically looking for them.

I make errors posting that I miss. So do other authors. Firefox will spell check what is posted. Some writing on these messageboards is quite a poor reflection of the talent that lies beneath. Maybe we could start here with watching our work more carefully.

This isn't the whole of her post, but what's interesting is that she also wrote about prices being lowered, and that was followed by "[...]" meaning infocenter deleted something. And by the way, whoever predicted that PA would hike the shipping costs to make up for the half-price sale was quite right. Another author started a thread about the "Exorbitant costs" (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26680).

I was happy to order 10 copies of one of my books at the 50% reduction price. However, the shipping cost for these small books was listed as $20. I noticed that the postage label on my last order of 10 books was $2.81. I believe we are being overcharged grossly by PA for shipping our books.

I had my latest book published by another publisher. When I ordered 100 copies of this considerably larger book, they charged less than $10. What has been your experience?

Even a honeymooner who seems delighted with PA described the shipping cost as "outrageous" and went on to say,

This special may be better for the people who want to purchase our book at a lower cost and possibly bring about more sales for our books, which is great!

And how many of those are there? PA certainly didn't try to target readers or bookstores with its half-price sale - the emails went out to the authors. So how many new readers did you gain before April 28?

cethklein
04-29-2008, 03:12 PM
How long before this person gets banned from PAMB? You know she won't last.

Also:

You are correct about the errors, D.K., but when I copied an excerpt of a major newspaper review citing copy errors in a PA book the thread was deleted, leading me to believe the publisher doesn't care.

I have newfound respect for Mr. Stodghill. I wonder how lnog before he gets banned over there. This will pose a unique challenge for PA. They need guys like him there to make it look like legit authors work with them. But they also can't have people questioning them either.

Although you'd think he should be past the "believe" stage and be in the the "know for a fact" stage.

Queen of Swords
04-29-2008, 06:37 PM
Stop. The. Presses.

This is probably the first time I have ever seen him criticize PA. Usually he says the publisher is not to blame for any errors in the book, and the rest of the faithful back him up on that. His post may be deleted, but I'm glad we've saved it here and that he was honest about PA.

JimmyD1318
04-29-2008, 06:39 PM
Stop. The. Presses.

This is probably the first time I have ever seen him criticize PA. Usually he says the publisher is not to blame for any errors in the book, and the rest of the faithful back him up on that. His post may be deleted, but I'm glad we've saved it here and that he was honest about PA.


I agree! You could knock me over with a bag of POPCORN after I read that! Good for him.

Jersey Chick
04-29-2008, 06:51 PM
Whoa... did I read that right?!?

Hmmm.... did the planets align? Is it the end of days?

I wonder how long that post will stay?

Dave.C.Robinson
04-29-2008, 06:54 PM
Careful, the cheese industry may start building moon rockets next.

Sparhawk
04-29-2008, 08:09 PM
I just parused thread; good for Dick. What puzzles me is that PA seems to be playing with book prices. Instead of keeping their prices at the 50% reduction, they seem to have raised them again... but NOT all the way back to full price. The poor authors have no clue as to what's going on. I'm waiting with baited breath for mighty Infomonster to weigh in.

Maybe PA will finally do something to help their authors promote their work... Wow! Did I just say that??

Sparhawk
04-29-2008, 08:32 PM
Authors also have to remember that the book doesn't go to print until they are satisfied, and I think authors sometimes are so excited about their book being published they sign off on it too soon rather than taking that last step of editing once more, or having a professional do so.


This may apply in real publishing but in PAvidia the author gets two weeks to review the entire manuscript and more often than not the errors requested to be fixed are not and PA often adds more errors than they fix.

My upcoming novel was knocked around by me and the editor for nearly three months for 411 pages. He scoured every page and every word. We didn't agree on some style issues but gramatically the story was flawless and some key plot point issues Jeremy (editor) noticed and told me to fix only made the story tighter. I've learned that that's what an editor does. PA is just a spell checker.... if even that anymore.

It's a shame because I know there are probably several decent books and decent writers that could make it with a real chance. "Author: The role playing game" doesn't do them justice.

Queen of Swords
04-29-2008, 09:14 PM
Mr Stodghill's post (quoted above by cethklein) has been deleted.

cethklein
04-29-2008, 09:23 PM
Wow, a new record. PA's forum Nazis are on the prowl today.

An interesting development:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26684

Looks like they made a spin-off topic. We'll see how long before Dick and others post in it (and it subsequently gets deleted).

JimmyD1318
04-29-2008, 09:30 PM
Mr Stodghill's post (quoted above by cethklein) has been deleted.

Why am I not surprised at this? It was one of the few times that the truth was up over there...that's why! I hope some of the other PA writers saw it and it makes them start to ask questions. But then...they will just go *POOF!* also. (Sigh...:Shrug:)

Sheryl Nantus
04-29-2008, 09:30 PM
My upcoming novel was knocked around by me and the editor for nearly three months for 411 pages. He scoured every page and every word. We didn't agree on some style issues but gramatically the story was flawless and some key plot point issues Jeremy (editor) noticed and told me to fix only made the story tighter. I've learned that that's what an editor does.

dang... I'm envious!

as for the deleted post - I'd love to see Mr. Stodghill here and add his skills to the talent pool but we'll see...

anyone who has racked up his publishing credits deserves a heck of a lot better than PA.

IMO, of course.

JimmyD1318
04-29-2008, 09:35 PM
dang... I'm envious!

as for the deleted post - I'd love to see Mr. Stodghill here and add his skills to the talent pool but we'll see...

anyone who has racked up his publishing credits deserves a heck of a lot better than PA.

IMO, of course.

I fully agree with you.
(By the way...nice to see you back.:D)

cethklein
04-29-2008, 09:37 PM
Yeah I hope other PA authors saw his post too. Because his post really wasn't in violation of any forum rules, so they deleted it solely because it didn't show them in a good light. What I REALLY look forward to is when others there question where it went (or better yet, when HE questions where his post went.)

ResearchGuy
04-29-2008, 09:42 PM
This may apply in real publishing but in PAvidia the author gets two weeks to review the entire manuscript . . .
Haven't cases been reported of only two days allowed for that?

--Ken

cethklein
04-30-2008, 12:54 AM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=90

PAMB is getting restless now. I think this could blow up (ok I hope so anyway). If enough of them start getting pissed we may see a backlash finally.

James D. Macdonald
04-30-2008, 02:07 AM
PA doesn't care. They could ban the whole lot, and in six months the PAMB would be just as full of happy, happy honeymooners planning their book signings and talking about how many copies of their own book they'll need to buy to "have on hand."

Queen of Swords
04-30-2008, 03:35 AM
A PA loyalist's take on editing (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26684&start=0)

I had quite an elaborate post to Dick's thread about that review of an author's book and his picking up mistakes. However, the post was pulled and my post never made it...I am posting here with a very, very (that's two "verys") shortened version of that post. The point is our contract and our instructions regarding publication express the intense involvement of the author from start to finish. Therefore, whatever mistakes appear must be considered as the responsibility of the author.

Sometimes I wonder... do any of the old-timers who stand up for PA no matter what realize that PA is in no shape or form a "traditional publisher"? Surely they can't be in denial to the point where they believe their "traditional publisher" uses a hands-off method of editing and allows their books to go out with multiple errors.

It does not matter what process you choose, the end result is yours, not Publish America's.

That's why you don't see a PA logo on the books.

Oh, wait.

They do their job when you have your copies in your hands.

At least he's honest about that. PA's work is done when it sends out two copies. After that, it's time for PA to kick back and wait for the cash as the author makes fridge magnets, beats the pavement and tries to get reviews.

Finally Frenchie chimes in about the makers of Persian carpets deliberately weaving one mistake into each carpet because only Allah is perfect. And when PA authors deliberately introduce one mistake into their otherwise perfect work because of their religion, this analogy will apply.

Mel
04-30-2008, 03:52 AM
Editing woes (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26684)
Im sure there werent all these errors in it when I sent it, there must be a server farm someplace which all these have to go through. They run the software that adds the errors, kinda a reverse spelling n grammar check. Hey Nobody's perfect but what is an acceptible error to word ratio?

And he doesn't yet know how close he is to the truth. Oh, wait, it has to be all his fault, can't be PA's.

Christine N.
04-30-2008, 03:54 AM
The reply and rebuttle is priceless!

Allah Akbar!

Aye he may make things perfect, but I doubt the Arabs leave 18-20 pages of errors in the rugs

Anyone who leaves 18 pages of errors -shouldn't be in the writing business! and Ah salem aleikum to you too!


What about someone who puts IN 18 pages of errors? Or who would ACCEPT A MANUSCRIPT with 18 pages of errors in the FIRST PLACE!

Jersey Chick
04-30-2008, 03:54 AM
Oh. My. God.

He can't be serious:

Im sure there werent all these errors in it when I sent it, there must be a server farm someplace which all these have to go through. They run the software that adds the errors, kinda a reverse spelling n grammar check. Hey Nobody's perfect but what is an acceptible error to word ratio?

And it's still there!!! The mind boggles... Nobody's perfect?? Yes, because commercials publishers often add mistakes to their books - gives them that certain something... Ay yi yi...

Oh, but wait, there's more:

... Therefore, whatever mistakes appear must be considered as the responsibility of the author. It does not matter what process you choose, the end result is yours, not Publish America's.
True - to certain extent. But when ALL the editing is left up to you, doesn't that tell you something's rotten in the state of Maryland??

They do their job when you have your copies in your hands. What happens between the covers of your book is what you were capable of doing. Yes - because no one at PA has probably read it, much less edited...

PA gives every author an assigned editor. That editor carries out your corrections and instructions within the given timeframe. The editors do not "baby-sit" and they do not make judgments about your writing even if you ask them for it.
Forgive me - I have limited experience with editors, but isn't that part of what they do? My editors have offered up suggestions and changes to make the story better (or make it make sense in places, where I goofed up). They tell me when something works and something doesn't and offer up suggestions how I might want to make it work. Do I just have really nice editors?

The book content is totally your problem. Did my book have mistakes? Yes. That's because I was not the "editor" I thought I was.
Ahem... this is why publishers have editors. Oy.

However, as a whole, my book is an outstanding example of what was accomplished by both Publish America and me. I am completely satisfied with the result. C'mon, you knew it had to show up somewhere.

PA is truly an "authors" publishing company. I believe the term you really want is vanity publishing company.

They give writers the chance that would not ordinarily be given to writers in mainstream publishing houses. And there is a reason for that...

And you owe Publish America the obligation to produce your best work. For that, all of us should be grateful and take it from there Shame on you for expecting something as grandiose as editing. Now, shut up and be grateful.

I need to go scrub my brain... it hurts.

Queen of Swords
04-30-2008, 03:57 AM
I especially like this part.

That editor carries out your corrections and instructions within the given timeframe.

Instructions, eh?

"Bring me a cup of coffee, editor. That's a good boy. Now, footrub time!"

Seriously, what kind of "instructions" do PA authors give their editors? Sometimes I think excessive exposure to the PAMB might affect authors even after they leave, because they might have the entirely wrong ideas about what agents and editors do. Can you imagine giving your editor "instructions"? Didn't think so.

JulieB
04-30-2008, 04:00 AM
Instructions, eh?

"Bring me a cup of coffee, editor. That's a good boy. Now, footrub time!"

Seriously, what kind of "instructions" do PA authors give their editors?

There went my evening glass of wine.

Jersey Chick
04-30-2008, 04:15 AM
Thankfully, I wasn't drinking anything.

My instructions are pretty simple - tell me if something doesn't work and I'll do whatever I can to make it work.

and bring me the paper ;)

JulieB
04-30-2008, 04:25 AM
I am slave to two cats, so perhaps I'm just used to following instructions. ;-)

Jersey Chick
04-30-2008, 04:29 AM
Ah - they have trained you well, young padawan! ;)

JulieB
04-30-2008, 04:44 AM
Ah - they have trained you well, young padawan! ;)

Look into the glowing eyes! You will obey!

Jersey Chick
04-30-2008, 04:46 AM
Whoa....

Afinerosesheis
04-30-2008, 06:42 AM
PA doesn't care. They could ban the whole lot, and in six months the PAMB would be just as full of happy, happy honeymooners planning their book signings and talking about how many copies of their own book they'll need to buy to "have on hand."

You're exactly right. You'll find the next crop of PA'ers in the New Author lounge. These are the ones who in the next six months will be the most loyal to PA.
It's just a vicious cycle that keeps sucking the livlihood out of writers from ~sea to shining sea~. =(

cethklein
04-30-2008, 03:05 PM
This person thinks they can offer writing tips:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26432

Here is a sample "sentence" I discovered on this author's website:

http://www.freewebs.com/bbwalter/bbwalterswritinggallery.htm

The morning mist was a thick gray that gave you the impression of a warm blanket covering the earth and structures in the Riverdale Cemetary, but the chilly early October air was anything but warm as it whistled past the monuments and tombstones and the small crowd of mourners that stood huddled around the open grave and golden colored casket of thirteen year old Daniel Roberts.

There are two glaring issues here that even a novice writer would see. First, don't tell ME what I get the impression of. Everyone knows that's a big no-no. Second, for the love of all that is holy, do ANY of these PA authors know what a run-on sentence is? Has someone at some point told these people that they are ok?

xhouseboy
04-30-2008, 04:35 PM
Yeah I hope other PA authors saw his post too. Because his post really wasn't in violation of any forum rules, so they deleted it solely because it didn't show them in a good light. What I REALLY look forward to is when others there question where it went (or better yet, when HE questions where his post went.)

These go the way of the original post.

And so do the posts asking about the posts that were asking about the post that was deleted.

It's a kind of infinity deal.

cethklein
04-30-2008, 06:02 PM
They're going to keep pushing and they'll all end up banned also thers said. It's all entertaining from the outside looking in.

Stacia Kane
04-30-2008, 06:38 PM
This person thinks they can offer writing tips:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26432



"Writing tips" on sites like these usually consist of things like "Make sure you have your computer in front of you or a pen and paper."

I never see actual information about, you know, writing as a craft. It's just something to check off your list, along with a thesaurus and a block of free time.

And nobody encourages them to see it as anything more than that.

PVish
05-01-2008, 02:04 AM
PA authors sing praises (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26698) for their publisher:
As a 73 year old author/writer who retired from state/federal civil service in 03 and started writing , I owe much to PA and self publishing. It is with note that Samuel Clemens and William Faulkner self published along with other great writers of our time.
I have achieved more personal goals in three years than I ever achieved in public service after some 45 years.
Just to see my books and my name, so well received in foreign countries, is a credit to PA and self publishing as well as the personal recognition locally.
My small measure of success has created an interest in books for my grandchildren, who say, "If grandpa can do that, I can do it."
When one hears the "death rattle", one does not have time to search out some suspicious agent to promote a book.

PA, those who are about to die, salute you? But further down the thread:
Indeed. However you aren't "self publishing" with PA--they are publishing your work. Unfortunately it's this innocent phrase which continues to put PA in a less than desireable light among some boards who will jump at it to make a connection to vanity publishing.

And another repeats what many have said before:
Well, like most folks I tried the agent- main stream publisher routine, you know how it goes, most main stream publishers won't even look at you without an agent, agent won't look at you unless you have been published by a mainstream publisher. So where do we go from there, PA of course. I couldn't be happier.

PA: the end of the line.

cethklein
05-01-2008, 02:18 AM
Which is pathetic because while TECHNICALLY PA isn't a self publisher, the fact you have to sell your own books makes it essentialy the same thing.

ResearchGuy
05-01-2008, 02:42 AM
Which is pathetic because while TECHNICALLY PA isn't a self publisher, the fact you have to sell your own books makes it essentialy the same thing.
PA is a vanity press, plain and simple. New model, more devious and deceptive than old style or than outright subsidy publishing, but still inarguably a vanity press.

The hallmark of a vanity press is that it falsely persuades the author that his or her book has been legitimately, competitively published while targeting sales almost entirely TO the author and being funded in some fashion (whether direct or, as in PA's case, disguised) by the author.

--Ken

Jersey Chick
05-01-2008, 03:38 AM
That's kind of a backhanded compliment, "When no one else will have you, where do you go?"

And infomonster hasn't quite picked up on it :D

James D. Macdonald
05-01-2008, 05:16 AM
It is with note that Samuel Clemens and William Faulkner self published along with other great writers of our time.


Sam Clemens (Mark Twain), did indeed self-publish. He did it after he was already the most popular author in America, and he went bankrupt doing so.

Faulkner self-published a play when he was a young man. The only folks who've ever heard of it are the guys who compile those lists of Famous Authors Who Once, For One Reason Or Another, Self-Published Something Somewhere, However Obscure It Might Have Been.

DaveKuzminski
05-01-2008, 05:53 AM
It might be worth establishing a topic with a brief description of all the alleged and actual famous self-published authors so it doesn't have to be recited each time the subject comes up and needs to be refuted or corrected when others make wild claims.

Afinerosesheis
05-01-2008, 07:25 AM
We are having the annual carnival in town this week. A lot of people I don't normally see have come up to me and commented on my book and the fact I am a published author. I appreciate their kindness, but just really do not know what to say. They ask me where they can buy my book. It is embarassing to admit it cannot be obtained in a bookstore. What can you say in a situation such as this, being a PA author?

Over two years since I signed and things keep going downhill.

Just another reason to work hard, perfect your writing, face many rejections in order to sign with a company that actually cares about your book and will work to get it into bookstores.

Khazarkhum
05-01-2008, 10:52 AM
It might be worth establishing a topic with a brief description of all the alleged and actual famous self-published authors so it doesn't have to be recited each time the subject comes up and needs to be refuted or corrected when others make wild claims.

Usually they have a ton of 17th-19thC authors, conveniently ignoring the fact that the publishing industry as we know it didn't really exist until @ 1860.

cethklein
05-01-2008, 04:03 PM
Sam Clemens (Mark Twain), did indeed self-publish. He did it after he was already the most popular author in America, and he went bankrupt doing so.

Faulkner self-published a play when he was a young man. The only folks who've ever heard of it are the guys who compile those lists of Famous Authors Who Once, For One Reason Or Another, Self-Published Something Somewhere, However Obscure It Might Have Been.


Oh yeah those FAWOFOROASPSSHOIMHB lists are always a fun read!

I agree with Dave we need a topic like that. And now we have an acronym for it.

cethklein
05-01-2008, 04:06 PM
We are having the annual carnival in town this week. A lot of people I don't normally see have come up to me and commented on my book and the fact I am a published author. I appreciate their kindness, but just really do not know what to say. They ask me where they can buy my book. It is embarassing to admit it cannot be obtained in a bookstore. What can you say in a situation such as this, being a PA author?


That would make a great Twix commercial.

"Need a moment? Chew it over with a Twix."

All kidding aside though, I'd just tell them it's self-published and you're working on getting it out in the big stores. (Leave PA out of it if at all possible though).

DaveKuzminski
05-01-2008, 04:44 PM
If it was put out by PA and there are any errors introduced by PA, let PA shoulder the responsibility for adding errors. Otherwise, you'd be harming yourself for future sales with a real publisher. Some of those folks might associate the editing as strictly your responsibility even should you be with another publisher.

Jersey Chick
05-01-2008, 05:31 PM
The In Praise thread has been renamed - with the words "Self Publishing" removed... Ah... infomonster has their scrub brush at the ready. ;)

ResearchGuy
05-01-2008, 05:59 PM
I. . .Washington Irving, who self-published The Sketch Book in London, . . .

Sure enough, Irving's publisher shortly went bankrupt. . .

Huh?

You say both:

A. He self-published and

B. His publisher went bankrupt.

Excuse me? You said he SELF-published the book. So if his publisher went bankrupt, then it was he who went bankrupt.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about vanity press PublishAmerica, not about self-publishing, which is something else entirely.

--Ken

Sunnyside
05-01-2008, 06:15 PM
Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about vanity press PublishAmerica, not about self-publishing, which is something else entirely.

Gotcha. I'll remove it. Perhaps we can take Dave's advice and start another thread debunking the myth about all the famous writers who have self-published -- at that point, I'll explain exactly why Irving self-published (mainly because he paid for the whole thing and just had John Miller print it) and got burned. I was merely trying to build off of Uncle Jim's example.

ResearchGuy
05-01-2008, 06:31 PM
Gotcha. I'll remove it. Perhaps we can take Dave's advice and start another thread debunking the myth about all the famous writers who have self-published (at that point, I'll explain exactly why Irving self-published (mainly because he paid for the whole thing and just had John Miller print it).)
Ah, then it was his printer who went bankrupt, holding Irving's books at the time. Had Irving warehoused the books himself, directly or by contract, it would have been a different matter.

Anyway, that sort of thing is ancient history and largely irrelevant to what folks face today by way of opportunities and risks and business methods. (Although bankruptcy of others in the trade chain is a real threat -- the failure of a large book distributer a couple of years ago was disastrous for many small publishers, for example.) That may be a point in favor of POD: no risk of a warehouseful of books being tied up in bankruptcy.

--Ken

Sparhawk
05-01-2008, 07:35 PM
I just bought 150 of my books at the 9.98 price, but I was appalled that I had to pay $2.00 per book for shipping. So I paid $300.00 to ship 150 books. I used to work for a shipping company and I know this shipment would not have been over $100.00 with insurance!

I guess it is the price we pay for fame...


Is it just me or does this seem so totally bogus. Three hundred dollars to ship a box of books? My 100lb Everlast kicking bag didn't cost three hundered dollars to ship. Man if that aint a kick in the jewels I don't know what is. And the PAvidians last reply nearly floored me. 'The price for fame'..... FAME!!!! Dude... you just purchased 150 copies of your own tome!!! You're NOT famous. $1,797.00 for his own books which equates to 17% shipping charge compared to the total bill. I'm at a complete loss. What an effing racket at Fortress Frederick.

Afinerosesheis
05-01-2008, 07:47 PM
The two bucks a buck ship price (for buying in bulk) makes me want to spew.

Jersey Chick
05-01-2008, 08:35 PM
Another thing to make you go Hmmm???

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26684&start=15


why so many pages from me? its easy, the amount of information Im sending to Lynn, one error report looks like this

Pg 14:

Current:
The next morning, after a night of rather unsettling dreams, Lorna awoke early. Trying her best not to wake Peter, Lorna proceeded to go about her morning rituals.

Change to:
The next morning, after a night of rather unsettling dreams, Lorna awoke early; trying her best not to wake Peter, she went about her morning rituals.

I have several, it means two maybe three per page

I'm not sure who's suggesting which change here - but neither sentence reads well to me. If the second one is PA's "editor" - I think someone needs a refresher course.

ResearchGuy
05-01-2008, 08:39 PM
Is it just me or does this seem so totally bogus. Three hundred dollars to ship a box of books? . . . .
FWIW, for shipping of 200 copies of a 208-page 6" x 9" trade paperback from Lulu, by UPS Ground, I'll pay $178.30. (Media Mail would be cheaper, but very slow and not assured of delivery.) That includes the UPS charge and Lulu's charge for the very careful packaging. For a smaller book (126 pages) I'll be paying $167.52 for UPS Ground shipping of 300 copies ($.56 per book).

For whatever comparative value the info. might have.

Does PA use Media Mail or UPS? Or something else?

--Ken

The Moirai
05-01-2008, 08:40 PM
Is it just me or does this seem so totally bogus. Three hundred dollars to ship a box of books? My 100lb Everlast kicking bag didn't cost three hundered dollars to ship. Man if that aint a kick in the jewels I don't know what is. And the PAvidians last reply nearly floored me. 'The price for fame'..... FAME!!!! Dude... you just purchased 150 copies of your own tome!!! You're NOT famous. $1,797.00 for his own books which equates to 17% shipping charge compared to the total bill. I'm at a complete loss. What an effing racket at Fortress Frederick.


You've got to keep in mind. It's probably marked as shipping and Handling. Handling all that money's got to be hard on those poor PA people. They've got to charge in case they break a nail. ;)

Sparhawk
05-01-2008, 09:16 PM
FWIW, for shipping of 200 copies of a 208-page 6" x 9" trade paperback from Lulu, by UPS Ground, I'll pay $178.30. (Media Mail would be cheaper, but very slow and not assured of delivery.) That includes the UPS charge and Lulu's charge for the very careful packaging. For a smaller book (126 pages) I'll be paying $167.52 for UPS Ground shipping of 300 copies ($.56 per book).

For whatever comparative value the info. might have.

Does PA use Media Mail or UPS? Or something else?

--Ken

Okay, so where does the extra 121.70 go?? Into PA's pocket I'd guess. Ken, I guess what floored me the most was the impression that this was what it took to be famous? I really beleive people over there beleive they're legitimately published authors AND that self purchasing ones books is what every publisher expects an author to do. I may buy five or so of my next book as give aways to a few people who've been supportive et al, but 150.... 200 copies on hand???? For what. I'd have to raid every bookstore from sea to shining sea and be a regula pest to move that much product on my own time. How do these PAvidians do it? How do they continue to swallow this bogus publishing paradigm. My publisher plans to help me achieve market penetration.

I remember being there a few years ago decending upon bookstores with a copy of my typo filled gem. Actually, PA did me a favor by NOT allowing B&N to carry my book regionally; knowing what I know now, I'd be so embarrassed to even be associated with Willem and company.

Writing a book and having it published is NOT a right that everybody should have. Excellent writing is an art form learned after many years of study and practice. I'm better now than I was two years ago and I want to be better two years from now than I am today. Rejection forced me to be aware of my weaknesses (Which are many). PA deprives an author of that knowledge and journey. Nothing worth achieving is easy. Being published with Publish America is easy; and not worth a tinkers damn... IMO. See Vic, I said 'my opinion'.

Maddog
05-01-2008, 09:18 PM
Media Mail is not that slow. I recently placed an order with Lulu and received it via MM in eight days--four days to print and four days to ship. Not a long wait and it was cheap--I think I paid under four dollars for shipping five copies of a very thin book.

Sparhawk
05-01-2008, 09:19 PM
Another thing to make you go Hmmm???

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26684&start=15




I'm not sure who's suggesting which change here - but neither sentence reads well to me. If the second one is PA's "editor" - I think someone needs a refresher course.

Amen... wow... all this PAvidian analysis is giving me a migraine. Lunch is about over and my Spaghetti-O's are cold. I hope everyone has a great afternoon.

stormie
05-01-2008, 09:36 PM
Another thing to make you go Hmmm???
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26684&start=15
I'm not sure who's suggesting which change here - but neither sentence reads well to me. If the second one is PA's "editor" - I think someone needs a refresher course.
Lynn is either a PAer or someone he hired to edit his work. I believe his english isn't good, and he readily admits it. But as you said, Jersey, the revised version is just as bad.

ResearchGuy
05-01-2008, 09:47 PM
Media Mail is not that slow. I recently placed an order with Lulu and received it via MM in eight days--four days to print and four days to ship. Not a long wait and it was cheap--I think I paid under four dollars for shipping five copies of a very thin book.
It is terrific for very small packages. For large ones (my test example involved 40 copies of a 208 pp. trade paperback) it can take weeks of hand-wringing uncertainty. My order was for 50 copies. One box of 10 arrived in under two weeks, from order placement to delivery. The other box, with the remaining 40, took much longer, although both were shipped on the same day.

Lulu advises against Media Mail for bulk shipments, for good reason.

--Ken

Mel
05-01-2008, 10:18 PM
I'm not sure who's suggesting which change here - but neither sentence reads well to me. If the second one is PA's "editor" - I think someone needs a refresher course.

Wouldn't it be more like MS Word's grammar check that needs a refresher course? Looks to me that the second one came from his PA editor. It also looks like something MS Word would suggest.

Lynn is either a PAer or someone he hired to edit his work. I believe his english isn't good, and he readily admits it. But as you said, Jersey, the revised version is just as bad.

From his posts it sounds to me like Lynn is his PA editor.

In another post he said his wife is an English teacher and she edited it, I think before he sent it in to PA.

Afinerosesheis
05-01-2008, 10:18 PM
I suppose I can tell everyone who inquires I am published by Lightning Press and like you said, "working" to get it into bookstores. Not a lie, really but keeps PA's name completely out of it. Thanks =)

JulieB
05-01-2008, 10:30 PM
I've had mixed results with Media Mail. Ordered a textbook for my son from halfway across the country and we got it in under a week. Ordered a used POD book from a seller 50 miles away and it took nearly two weeks from the date of shipping to arrive at my doorstep. Go figure.

DaveKuzminski
05-01-2008, 11:21 PM
Does PA use Media Mail or UPS? Or something else?


In keeping with their character, I'd presume they use flying monkeys trained by their evil witch.

MadScientistMatt
05-02-2008, 02:58 AM
Lynn is either a PAer or someone he hired to edit his work. I believe his english isn't good, and he readily admits it. But as you said, Jersey, the revised version is just as bad.

I'd say it is worse. The editor took two sentances that were already plenty long and combined them.

stormie
05-02-2008, 04:54 AM
Yeah, I agree. I was just being nice for once. :D

Queen of Swords
05-03-2008, 03:01 AM
The usual difficulties (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26453)

My book is not retunable because it is a full color picture book. That is just unacceptable. I have a book that I can not sell in local bookstores...

How can we make money and get our books out there if they cannot be returnable?

This is my only problem so far. Other than that, PA has been great!

Other than that little iceberg issue, the journey on the Titanic was superb. But here's something that's different. A new author says that she's a PA employee (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26712) - in Acquisitions, actually. I find it difficult to believe she's for real.

When I submitted, I didn't tell anyone it was me. I didn't want any special treatment, and I didn't want any special favors. I didn't let anyone know until I was offered a contract. It's definitely opened my eyes to both sides of the publishing world.

What kind of special favors would PA have given her? Keeping the manuscript away from "editors", and a shipping rate of only $1.99/book?

stormie
05-03-2008, 03:11 AM
Ach! Did you see the cover of the POW/MIA book? (It's one of the writer's avatars.) The title has caps, even the word "Is" but the "a" isn't. Looks strange. I can see why the books aren't returnable. Besides PA wanting to keep their money, and make money (forget their authors), the covers are...are...different.

xhouseboy
05-03-2008, 04:42 AM
When I submitted, I didn't tell anyone it was me. I didn't want any special treatment, and I didn't want any special favors. I didn't let anyone know until I was offered a contract. It's definitely opened my eyes to both sides of the publishing world.


Struggling author slogs away at publishers day in day out. Submits ms under a pen name. Is rewarded with a contract, and only then does she reveal her true identity.

What a heart warming human interest story... or it would be if this was the real world.

Stacia Kane
05-03-2008, 05:05 AM
What's really sad is what she's learning about "the publishing world" from the "inside"...imagine the kind of advice she'll give people, based on her expert knowledge from working at a publishing house. *cringe*

Afinerosesheis
05-03-2008, 06:30 AM
The usual difficulties (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26453)



Other than that little iceberg issue, the journey on the Titanic was superb. But here's something that's different. A new author says that she's a PA employee (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26712) - in Acquisitions, actually. I find it difficult to believe she's for real.



What kind of special favors would PA have given her? Keeping the manuscript away from "editors", and a shipping rate of only $1.99/book?


If she is for real, I would imagine she is between a rock and a hard place. Or she will be soon. What is up with her anyway?

Hummertime
05-03-2008, 07:49 AM
I think the only PA author who came over here and didn' sling any mud but actually engaged in civil intelligent debate was an author by the name of CJ Wilkes. She was bright, polite and willing to discuss al facets of PA.

Was she the victim of childhood sexual abuse who wrote about her experience, and how she overcame it, only to see her book panned by Amazon reviewers because of spelling, grammar and syntax?

If she's the same one I am thinking about, then if I recall correctly she dropped off the radar not too longer after the HB faked his own death.

Queen of Swords
05-03-2008, 06:01 PM
If she is for real, I would imagine she is between a rock and a hard place. Or she will be soon. What is up with her anyway?

Here's the latest from her.

I honestly enjoy being able to clear up any confusion that they may have, and I enjoy helping them be certain that they're making the right choice by going with PublishAmerica. Being in the inside of the industry and seeing what practices go on where... I don't think I would ever trust my books to another publisher. http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

:rolleyes:

I wish the rolling-eyes icon didn't look as though it's smiling.

Mel
05-03-2008, 06:21 PM
Is it just me? (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26712)
It is pretty fun! And it's been a pleasure to work with every author I've come across. It's funny, because alot of authors apologize when they ask me questions. But they don't realize that I love answering their questions. I honestly enjoy being able to clear up any confusion that they may have, and I enjoy helping them be certain that they're making the right choice by going with PublishAmerica. Being in the inside of the industry and seeing what practices go on where... I don't think I would ever trust my books to another publisher.

Bolding mine.

Is anyone wondering if she's a plant? Am I being too suspicious? New tactic for PA?

Nitpick: alot is 2 words -a lot- not one. :)

James D. Macdonald
05-03-2008, 06:34 PM
Just guessing here. She's been at PA less than six months. Maybe less than six weeks?

James D. Macdonald
05-03-2008, 06:51 PM
Answering my own question: I've dropped over to her MySpace page. She's been with PA since February.

TwentyFour
05-03-2008, 07:23 PM
I think DStodg's comments got him a small banning. Has he posted since the "publisher doesn't care" quote?

Mel
05-03-2008, 07:51 PM
I think DStodg's comments got him a small banning. Has he posted since the "publisher doesn't care" quote?

According to date and time he made two more posts after that last quote was posted here. So possibly he did get banned when infomonster saw it. Or, he may be having health problems again.

ETA: seems no one over there has asked where he is, though. Strange?

Monkey
05-03-2008, 08:52 PM
In keeping with their character, I'd presume they use flying monkeys trained by their evil witch.

That would certainly explain the shipping costs. We magic monkeys don't work cheap, you know.

A disclaimer: I do not work for PA. I'm currently in negotiations with III, but he's quibbling over the number of bananas to be paid semi-annually.

Afinerosesheis
05-03-2008, 09:09 PM
Here's the latest from her.



:rolleyes:

I wish the rolling-eyes icon didn't look as though it's smiling.

She's going to be one to watch, maybe. Strange thing, an ex-employee publishing their prose. Does she have blue hair or are my eyes messing with me?

stormie
05-04-2008, 12:33 AM
Yep, it's blue.

BarbJ
05-04-2008, 05:44 AM
"...I enjoy helping them be certain that they're making the right choice by going with PublishAmerica. Being in the inside of the industry and seeing what practices go on where... I don't think I would ever trust my books to another publisher."

Yep, after 2 months with PA, she's sure to know all about publishing practices and the industry. *sigh* Someday she might in truth learn about real publishing and feel really, really stupid - and guilty for persuading others to jump into the cesspool.

There are 2 comments one consistently reads over in PAland, and I have to tie my fingers in knots to keep from responding. The first is: What can you do if other agents and publishers won't touch your book? (I generally ignore the addendum : If you're not famous. If they're smart enough to write a book, they must know this is b.s.)

Well, yanno, one could, yanno, sort of edit and study and edit again for more than verbiage and get beta readers instead of "You're so wonderful" people and, yanno, try to figure out what it takes to kinda sorta be, yanno, a writer. One could. People here are doing that, including PA escapees.

And two: PA gave us a chance.

Excuse my feeble wits - a chance at what? You're still an unknown writer with no books in stores, aside from a handful if you work your butt off, and no publishing credits. A chance at what?

Okay, lurkers, take the challenge. Post in Share Your Work. You're here because you want to be a writer. Be one. :D

Jersey Chick
05-04-2008, 05:54 AM
What gets me about the "what can you do if other agents and publishers won't touch your book" is that it doesn't seem to dawn that it's not all those agents and publishers trying to keep the writer down. What's the common denominator? The book. Hmm... you'd think a lightbulb would go off. You'd think that maybe, just maybe, they'd start to wonder if maybe, just maybe, their book isn't getting acceptances because it isn't publishable yet. Could that possibly be a reason? Or could all those agents and editors be that dumb that they just don't recognize genius when they see it. Wait - I think I answered my own question.

You'd think someone would go to a bookstore and walk around, take in some of the names. Chances are, they wouldn't recognize half of those names on the shelves because those aren't the "big names". I do it all the time - pick up a book by someone I've never heard of - and yet, there they are.

I'm sick to death of the chants of "unless you're famous". Common sense should tell the PAvadians that's absolute crap. Again - take a look at all those non-names on those shelves. Ack - where's my #%$@! lighter???

And the giving them a chance - argh... :headdesk: :headdesk: :headdesk:

that's it - i need that lighter, now, and I need a drink to go with my flaming hair (or maybe to douse it)

cethklein
05-04-2008, 05:58 AM
Ok not sure how I missed these before:

A lot of us have quite a few books on hand. I have 75, with some being bought at a 50 % discount, others at 40%, plus shipping. If the price stays at half I will sell at a loss. I would like the price to be reasonable, but not half.

At $10, and that's probably the least she paid, that's $750!!!

But then there's this:

Mine is now at the same price.

I just bought 150 of my books at the 9.98 price, but I was appalled that I had to pay $2.00 per book for shipping. So I paid $300.00 to ship 150 books. I used to work for a shipping company and I know this shipment would not have been over $100.00 with insurance!

I guess it is the price we pay for fame...

I literally lost even more faith in humanity after reading this. I genuinely am speechless. At $10 that's $1500, and had the "sale" not been going on, he would have paid $20 that's $3000 This genius just dropped 3K on books and is pissing and moaning about high shipping?

And then Bernice, the one who made the first quote about ordering 75 books, hits the nail on the head and shows us all the root of the PA problem:

PA now has my book showing retail $16.95 Now $13.95. I can make a profit at the new price and it sounds reasonable. Whatever PA decides I will support them.

That pretty much sums it up I think.

BarbJ
05-04-2008, 08:01 AM
What gets me about the "what can you do if other agents and publishers won't touch your book" is that it doesn't seem to dawn that it's not all those agents and publishers trying to keep the writer down. What's the common denominator? The book. Hmm... you'd think a lightbulb would go off.

Yep. It also doesn't seem to dawn on them that publishers and agents are dependent on ... wait for it ... the book! It's their livelihood, not just the writer's. Of course they want to find the new writer with a saleable book. Old wiriters falter, retire and drop away in various methods. At which point all publishers and agents promptly die of starvation, since they have no more famous writers. Bookstores are barren but for dust, spiders and the carcasses of silverfish. The gutters are filled with the stinking corpses of avid readers who have nothing left to read. The world ends. I'm filled with the appalling realization I shouldn't have looked at the Horror SYW before this...

Pass a lighter, please. Jimmy should be here with the popcorn soon.

JimmyD1318
05-04-2008, 08:21 AM
After reading the last few post...I need a lighter for my hair and a full bucket of POPCORN to try and calm down. :Shrug: Yeeeshhh!

triceretops
05-04-2008, 11:02 AM
At $10, and that's probably the least she paid, that's $750!!!

And keep in mind that's just one author. Some authors make multiple bulk purchases.

Tri

JimmyD1318
05-04-2008, 06:09 PM
At $10, and that's probably the least she paid, that's $750!!!

And keep in mind that's just one author. Some authors make multiple bulk purchases.

Tri

Then how in the world can they say they didn't pay to be published? I wish one of them could explain that to me.

Jersey Chick
05-04-2008, 06:46 PM
I've restocked the lighter supply - who needs one? Some are sparkly this time :D (mine's pink with silver sparkles - perfect for a weekend hair-flame)

The rational is simple - they choose to buy their books. Of course, they don't factor in that if they don't choose to buy enough, PA won't accept their next manuscript. At least not right away.

Argh.

Queen of Swords
05-04-2008, 07:31 PM
Then how in the world can they say they didn't pay to be published? I wish one of them could explain that to me.

They didn't have to pay at the start. The pleasure comes first, and the hefty price tag comes along much later (not to mention that the costs are connected to the books rather than to the acceptance letter). Therefore, many people don't link the two. They think of it as paying for the books rather than for the right to be published.

Mel
05-04-2008, 08:07 PM
They also think/swear that all publishing houses are run this way.

Jersey, do you have a blue sparkly lighter?

Jersey Chick
05-04-2008, 08:08 PM
Wait - let me look.... **rummages through box**

AHA! One blue, sparkly lighter comin' up **tosses lighter to Mel**

I'm also playing bartender today - anyone care for a refreshing alcohol-based beverage? ;)

Komnena
05-04-2008, 08:22 PM
Some acquaintances recently gave us a cat.
The initial vet visit was $126.
The followup visit was $116.
Total $242.
But at least we didn't pay to get the cat.

Jersey Chick
05-04-2008, 09:04 PM
I'm surprised this is still there:

Ah the mysterious option 3, I wasnt offered it, how does one persuade PA to offer that to all its authors.

I never thought I'd see the day when an author had to persuade a publisher to edit...

Christine N.
05-04-2008, 09:29 PM
It's insane, this McPublishing, where you choose your options from the Value Menu. Why would you WANT your book to see the public unedited? It's like walking out to give a speech in your underwear!

Jersey Chick
05-04-2008, 10:22 PM
But....


but....



but.....

those words are golden! they are my voice! are you suggesting what i rite ain't purfeckt???


the noive! :D

ResearchGuy
05-04-2008, 10:54 PM
Some acquaintances recently gave us a cat.
The initial vet visit was $126.
The followup visit was $116.
Total $242.
But at least we didn't pay to get the cat.
Well, you didn't. But that does not mean that responsible pet ownership is without costs.

Anyway, no one who signs with PA is forced to buy books for resale or other purposes, and some -- perhaps many -- do not. That contrasts with, for example, Trafford or iUniverse, which charge hefty fees up front.

As pathetic an option as it is, PA is a cheap entrance into the status of "Published Author." Some milk that for all it is worth, and some do not.

Curiously, one of my recently-PA-published writer friends recently announced his new book (his first, and probably last, with PA). He has brought no books for sale at meetings, has not even mentioned PA -- instead, he points folks to BarnesAndNoble.com to buy the book (although he did give out names and addresses for the PA mailers).

Perhaps more curiously, one of the most relentlessly pro-PA folks I know has recently, abruptly, stopped praising -- even seems to have stopped mentioning -- PA. And another stated publicly that her PA books "are not returnable" (having learned that the hard way), and that she has to supply hundreds (or some substantial number, at least) of copies herself for a local event sponsored by a regional retailer. It's nice that she got the event set up. I hope she does not get burned too badly by the costs.

FWIW.

--Ken

Christine N.
05-04-2008, 11:33 PM
Well that's just it - of course you don't HAVE to buy the books. But then you either have to be satisfied with whatever sales you make by promoting the book online, or with whatever chance sales come your way. Some people have more of a market and will do better with a simple Google search. I imagine our friend Dick would be one of those. He's got a specialized non-fic book that will appeal to a specific audience. PA will probably work better for him than for a fiction writer.

If you don't buy the books, how many can you expect to sell? And even then, how many of those sales come from your own direct efforts instead of the publisher's?

ResearchGuy
05-04-2008, 11:43 PM
Well that's just it - of course you don't HAVE to buy the books. But then you either have to be satisfied with whatever sales you make by promoting the book online, or with whatever chance sales come your way. . . .
How does that differ from the pay-up-front subsidy/vanity presses?

--Ken

Christine N.
05-05-2008, 12:22 AM
I was comparing them to commercial publishers, but I see where you're going. It doesn't, and that's the point. Either you buy up front and get a number of books to handsell and promote online, or you go the PA route, pay nothing up front, and pray. Or you buy the books at an inflated shipping cost.

Either way, you pay to play, or you hold your breath and hope someone will buy the book. It's vanity, which is something the PA faithful will not admit to.

James D. Macdonald
05-05-2008, 02:05 AM
PA is playing the odds. They're betting that enough authors will buy enough copies of their own books that it'll cover the costs of those who don't. So far they've been winning that bet.

(And with a handsome profit, too).

Afinerosesheis
05-05-2008, 05:06 AM
PA is playing the odds. They're betting that enough authors will buy enough copies of their own books that it'll cover the costs of those who don't. So far they've been winning that bet.

(And with a handsome profit, too). They are definitely not hurting for money. Seems like when they run their "specials" the authors come running to buy. Not me. Not ever again.

PVish
05-05-2008, 06:10 AM
Uh, oh. A little problem (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26736) with selling books (bolding mine):

Hey, Complaints from people, they are unable to access P.A.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Everyone,

I have listed your children books on my children's site! I listed your books as requested to buy online at Publish America! I am getting complaints when some want to view you book at P.A. the site is either down or they unable to view your books, because the P.A. site has an error. I have linked them directly to your book and tested myself; I am having the same problem!

If you have another favorite bookstore, I can link them to, so people are able to view and possibly buy your book let me know. I linked mine to Barnes and Noble and I have not had a problem!

I know you agree it becomes a major problem for the sell of our books if others are unable to view or access your book if this problem persist. Check it out for the next few days and see how many times you are able to access your book at P.A, especially at evening and the night! This is ridiculous! It makes joke of Publish America, our work and is this what we all worked so hard for!

P.A needs to correct this problem; we all need to notify them of this! For we work so hard to build sites, promote our books, and tirelessly passing out promotional material, then when people try to view or buy our books it is impossible! How many times do you think others will deal with this problem before they say, like I have been informed on several occasions; it is to difficult order your book from your publisher, in most cases that sell is lost! Think about the ones trying to order we do not hear about, they just give up and do not buy our books! I am not happy at all this is embarrassing and what does this say to the people about our publisher!

Please, I would love some feedback and P.A, I have been happy with your services up to this point, Please for the reputation of P.A and your Authors correct this PROBLEM<

Looks like she's rocking the boat—and she's only been aboard three months. Bet this post won't last.

IceCreamEmpress
05-05-2008, 06:19 AM
(re: above post quoted from the PAMB)

Wholly unnecessary exclamation points, Batman!

DaveKuzminski
05-05-2008, 06:25 AM
She obviously doesn't understand yet that to PA she's the customer. PA cares only about selling to her. PA doesn't care if she succeeds in reselling her books because it's not PA's problem any longer because they've already succeeded in making their sales.

That online store is only a facade like they use in the movies. It doesn't have to work or be real because it doesn't have to make any sales. It only has to look like it could.

Mel
05-05-2008, 06:44 AM
Still there. No one has posted any comments.

kullervo
05-05-2008, 06:57 AM
A question: why do so many posters on PAMB use the word "sell" when they should use "sale?" I've seen phrases similar to "the sell of my book" several times. Is this some regional colloquialism with which I am unfamiliar?

Gravity
05-05-2008, 07:05 AM
Nope. It's called "a poor grasp of the King's English." But why should they care? Grandma loves their book, craptastic word usage and all...

Donnettetxgirl
05-05-2008, 07:05 AM
Christine, I agree; I couldn't imagine having a book out there on the market that hasn't been properly edited by someone who knew what they were doing.

Maybe for those who haven't seen the great advantages of a good editor it doesn't seem necessary to them. But, truth be told, it makes all the difference in the world.

I'm an avid reader, but I'd never pick up a PA book largely because I know it's hardly been edited & I don't want to bother wading through writing that I know has not been cleaned up & pleasing to my eyes as a reader. Why bother when I can pick up a book that has been successfully edited & I don't have to work extra hard to get through it.

I think the fact that PA books are poorly edited is another reason that most of them don't sell very well. For most true-blue, bonafide readers, a poorly edited book just won't cut it.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater

BarbJ
05-05-2008, 07:12 AM
But....


but....



but.....

those words are golden! they are my voice! are you suggesting what i rite ain't purfeckt???


the noive! :D

Okay, it's rant time. (Not against you, Jersey, even though you gave away my sparkly blue lighter.)

This is a thing that one sees all too often on the PA boards and from newbie writers everywhere, including SYW. No one would expect to take a month's dancing lessons and then join the Ballet Russe. No one would expect to graduate from chalk drawings on the sidewalk directly into immortality as a painter. No one would expect to take one tae kwon do lesson and take on Jet Li or even Joey down the block.

Everyone knows it takes study, practise and discipline. So why do too many people expect to become a best-selling writer without much effort? Lurkers and newbies, there are many helpful boards here. If you want to be a writer, learn your trade.

And that, I suppose, is why PA is raking in the bucks despite their blatant contempt for writers and the writing world in general.

Dammit, Jimmy, I need popcorn Now, Jimmy, now! Please?

BarbJ
05-05-2008, 07:31 AM
How does that differ from the pay-up-front subsidy/vanity presses?

--Ken

Money is money, spent up front or ass-end. The problem is PA is too large, gets mentioned in press releases too often, hides the truth of its general worthlessness too well, and walks the edge of legality with careful weasel-wording. At least if you pay up front, you can't be deceived - or deceive yourself - about what you're doing. As long as PA call itself "traditional" and yammers about its advances and royalties as if they had any value, it differs.

I don't like any vanity that lies, but PA is more efficient at deception and seduction than others. They differ in their supreme efficiency at bilking the unwary. They may be no different than other predators chewing on the innocent, but they differ in the extent of their success.

Whew! I needed to say that.

Queen of Swords
05-05-2008, 08:22 AM
Still there. No one has posted any comments.

It's gone. I wonder how the author feels; she's been pretty enthusiastic about the PA experience up till this point.

Jersey Chick
05-05-2008, 09:10 AM
Never fear, Barb - I have plenty of blue sparkly lighters! Here ya go!

I wonder if anyone responded...

Jersey Chick
05-05-2008, 09:20 AM
And the editing silliness continues:

This is in response to those two sentences - one that was bad enough on its own, the "corrected" version was worse - and here are a few thoughts on that:

...the problem with those changes as I understand "changes or corrections" in editing our book, you are "rewriting". Corrections are one thing but "rewriting" your text is a no,no. That was something you should have done prior to submitting your text for publication.
Oy. Again - the misinformation. I rewrote an entire scene on the advice of my FLE for my Samhain book. That change meant an added scene later on - which I also wrote in. That's part of what editors do! They point out something that might not make sense and make suggestions as to how to make it make sense (in my case, the original scene went against the hero's sense of right and wrong, and my editor suggested it was out of character for him. She was right and I rewrote it.) Say it with me, PAvadians - That's why God gave writers editors!

Once the text is in print, the only thing left is corrections to what you have written and is not there or in spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. Sigh. See above. No one can see it, but I'm :headdesking: it right now.

I could be wrong so perhaps info center could straighten us out here... Yeah - cuz they know what they're doing. I often have the computer people making editing suggestions. No - you know what, you don't need infomonster. You. Are. Wrong.

I knew it was too quiet over in PA Land.

cethklein
05-05-2008, 02:59 PM
PA is playing the odds. They're betting that enough authors will buy enough copies of their own books that it'll cover the costs of those who don't. So far they've been winning that bet.

(And with a handsome profit, too).

Has anyone heard exactly what kind of numbers we're talking about Obviously PA isn't going to advertise their gross profits but has anyone heard even speculation?

Also I guess it's a safe assumption that Miranda is netting the lion's share of said gross profit.

cethklein
05-05-2008, 03:07 PM
She obviously doesn't understand yet that to PA she's the customer. PA cares only about selling to her. PA doesn't care if she succeeds in reselling her books because it's not PA's problem any longer because they've already succeeded in making their sales.

That online store is only a facade like they use in the movies. It doesn't have to work or be real because it doesn't have to make any sales. It only has to look like it could.

You know, as sad as it is, at the end of the day, PA is a pretty smart scam. It's all (or mostly) within the lines of the law, yet still wholly unscrupulous. Unlike other publishing scams, PA figured out how to do it without being illegal. That's what is so terrible about the whole thing, until Miranda screws up, she's pretty much immune and she knows it. Something tells me that with all the things PA doesn't invest much in (editors, high-quality publishing equipment, etc.) the one thing they have apparently invested in are good attorneys.

Christine N.
05-05-2008, 04:20 PM
Oh sheesh. How many writers have I talked to that have rewritten whole chapters? It happens. Editors don't want you to change the story, or else they wouldn't have contracted it, but there are times when things need to be tweaked or smoothed or just changed. Characters get cut, which means you need to assign their 'part' to someone else, and scenes get moved, and things can be rearranged.

Rewriting a no-no? Only during final proof editing, when you're looking for minor mistakes. OH, I see. That's all PA lets you do. They just drop the ms into the template and let you proof it, nothing else. So yeah, you'd better make sure the story is EXACTLY how you want to see it, because there IS no editing at PA.

DaveKuzminski
05-05-2008, 04:42 PM
You know, as sad as it is, at the end of the day, PA is a pretty smart scam. It's all (or mostly) within the lines of the law, yet still wholly unscrupulous. Unlike other publishing scams, PA figured out how to do it without being illegal. That's what is so terrible about the whole thing, until Miranda screws up, she's pretty much immune and she knows it. Something tells me that with all the things PA doesn't invest much in (editors, high-quality publishing equipment, etc.) the one thing they have apparently invested in are good attorneys.

Actually, it's really a matter of some prosecutor being willing to go after PA. Right now, it's largely a matter of cost effectiveness. Now if enough prosecutors could be convinced to pool their resources and back one of them to go after PA, it would be a slam dunk.

JimmyD1318
05-05-2008, 05:33 PM
Dammit, Jimmy, I need popcorn Now, Jimmy, now! Please?

Your wish is my command! Here you go!:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:Please...do n't hurt your humble POPCORN MONSTER.:heart:

Mel
05-05-2008, 06:20 PM
Moved here (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=292090&highlight=#292090)
Hello Everyone,

I have listed your children books on my children's site! I listed your books as requested to buy online at Publish America! I am getting complaints when some want to view you book at P.A. the site is either down or they unable to view your books, because the P.A. site has an error. I have linked them directly to your book and tested myself; I am having the same problem!
[...]

And more than half of her post deleted.

One response below hers.
Yes Sharon I totaly agree!

[...]

Whatever else he said was deleted also.

Funny that PA looks like they're trying to bury it instead of a complete delete.

If she comments on this then that post will be deleted. PA is so good at trying to sweep the dirt under the carpet.

Donnettetxgirl
05-05-2008, 06:37 PM
Re-writing your text is a no-no? Who came up with that tid-bit of bull?

My editor had me re-write my entire manuscript. Said there was too much passive voice. I'm glad he suggested that; it came out so much better the second time around. And it taught me alot going through the process. After the re-write it was edited again.

Despite the fact that perhaps, it should have been done before submission; it wasn't, because I didn't see what the editor saw. That's what editors do: they see what we writers don't.

If my editor suggested changes for the better, why would I argue with him? I want my book to be written the best that it can be. After all, I do hope to sell more novels in the future. If the book is poorly written, chances are pretty good that readers will shy away from buying another book from me.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater

Jersey Chick
05-05-2008, 06:41 PM
Exactly. When I originally wrote the scene I later rewrote, I thought it worked the way it was - because I knew the hero. But, as my editor pointed out, the readers are just getting to know him, so while his action was justified, it could make him seem like a rotten SOB.

She was right.

cethklein
05-05-2008, 06:55 PM
Here's a cute one:

Jon,
Your going to learn alot from these authors. We, on the message board get to benefit from their years of experience.

Really Bernice? Well I hope "your" going to learn better English from "your" fellow authors on PAMB. But don't hold "you're" breath.

(yes I know, I'm a bastard).

And in response to Rudy:

Jon: the problem with those changes as I understand "changes or corrections" in editing our book, you are "rewriting". Corrections are one thing but "rewriting" your text is a no,no. That was something you should have done prior to submitting your text for publication. Once the text is in print, the only thing left is corrections to what you have written and is not there or in spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. I could be wrong so perhaps info center could straighten us out here...Barbara, I can think of one other thing that you left out to kick start the muse..but you will not get it from my lips....Rudy

Actually Rudy, you're (or "your" if we use Bernice's version of the English language.) so full of crap you'd need a rain barrel to catch the overflow. Rewrites are par for the course. PA doesn't want you doing them as that would delay the release of your novel. This in turn will mean PA will have to wait longer before being able to sell you your own book. And this, in turn, will delay Miranda's purchase of a new BMW. And we CANNOT stand for that!

I have never seen any work that was not helped along with a glass of wine

Very true Frenchie. Except you need to add the letters "PA" before the word "work" in your sentence and you'll be right on the money. Works published by actual publishers don't require any "extra assistance" to be tolerable.

But yes, a little booze would probably make most PA books easier to read. Maybe PA need to start including a fifth of Absinthe with every book order. Hell I'll even start ordering books from them then.

ResearchGuy
05-05-2008, 07:04 PM
. . .At least if you pay up front, you can't be deceived - or deceive yourself - about what you're doing. . . .
The large number of people who think it is normal to pay to be published suggests otherwise.

--Ken

cethklein
05-05-2008, 07:12 PM
Also, from the "Any Mystery Writers" topic where Dick tore into that one guy:

As far as the snobbish Mystery Writers of America and Private Eye Writers of America, if they don't think that someone who publishes a POD book is good enough for them, then so be it, their loss.

No, it's not their loss, it's yours. This idea that they are snobs is ridiculous at best. What's the point of having groups like those if any half-wit off the street can just join? Oh that's right, quality shouldn't matter. Anyone who slaps some words on paper should be classed the same as Stephen King. Remember, you "deserve" to be published.

All I can say to those out there that want to write mystery books, to each, his own, just go for it. If you want to be a mystery writer, be a mystery writer and let know one tell you differently.

Yeah, good idea, just write without educating yourself. To hell with the rules! Maybe doctors should start doing that too. You know, just saying "screw college, I'll practice medicine MY WAY!" Or air traffic controlers could do it too. "Fuck those flgiht charts and radars, I'll guide these planes in MY WAY!"

Thanks to PA for letting us write what and how we want without someone telling us that it doesn't exactly fit a particular genre.

PA authors, keep up the good work

Cut the word "good" and you'll be correct. You could write "how you want" without going with PA. Lulu will print and bind anything you produce, no matter how big a heap of shit it is. And they'll do it without the embarrasment that comes with PA.

JulieB
05-05-2008, 08:00 PM
Perhaps I haven't had enough coffee (man, what a hockey game last night), but it seems that this thread is starting to veer from "respect your fellow writer" territory.

JimmyD1318
05-05-2008, 08:08 PM
Perhaps I haven't had enough coffee (man, what a hockey game last night), but it seems that this thread is starting to veer from "respect your fellow writer" territory.

Hmmmm...going to have to agree with you on that. Cethklein...can you reign it in just a bit please? The problem is how PA does things, not the writers that are under contract with them.

Afinerosesheis
05-05-2008, 08:23 PM
Coming in from the other side of things, having never had a book "properly edited" has not made me stronger in my writing. I wish I could have seen the changes a line editor might have made to my ms before publication which would've shown me the story in a better light. Seeing this would have made me aware of the real changes a book needs before publication and therefore how to better my writing in the future. It is a great loss.

Jersey Chick
05-05-2008, 09:01 PM
IMHO most writers can't do that without some outside help - especially outside objective help. I've gotten better, but only because someone else has said, "Well, that's okay... but... this might work better."

It wasn't easy at first - it's my book right? Shouldn't I get to tell it my way? And the general feeling over at PAMB is that the editors are your enemy because they want to change you. But that's just not so. They aren't the enemy and they want to change your words - to make them better - which is really working for you instead of against you. In order to learn that, you have to be willing to separate your writing from your person - that's why the phrase "my book is my baby" drives me crazy. It's not a slight against you to say something isn't working, and the PAvadians can't seem to grasp that - which is sad because there probably are some truly talented people who could do so much better if they stopped thinking of their manuscripts as an extra limb and start thinking of them as what they are - a story they'd like to see generate enough interest to sell beyond family and friends.

James D. Macdonald
05-05-2008, 09:10 PM
Has anyone heard exactly what kind of numbers we're talking about Obviously PA isn't going to advertise their gross profits but has anyone heard even speculation?

Last time they mentioned their gross, a couple of years ago, they were doing $4-6million per year.

I expect that's gone up.

Donnettetxgirl
05-05-2008, 09:43 PM
The way I see it: thank God for editors. I would never even consider having something published (out there for all the world to see) if it was not properly edited first. That'd be like walking around my block nude.

Readers will judge you on your work. You'd better believe it. If the writing is poor, an author's sales will not do well. Plus the fact they've just made a bad name for themselves. Readers like to read a well-written book with a plot that makes sense. Not the other way around.

If a writer goes with PA, knowing what they're about beforehand because they feel they can't get published any other way, as far as I'm concerned it's nothing more than a cop-out. Authors who've been publsihed the legit way have had to work for it, put out the time & energy to learn to do things the right way. They've had to sacrifice, take criticism & learn from it instead of letting it beat them down.

In today's world anybody can be published, but being published honorably takes time; it takes alot of sweat & tears, & it takes having thick skin as well as the desire to learn what they need so that they can reach their goals. There is certainly something to be said for that.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater

kullervo
05-05-2008, 09:44 PM
When I think of the number of times I rewrote, edited, and polished this book! On my own, with an agent, with another agent, with an editor, with a copyeditor... Makes me want to jump out the window. It's painful to receive criticism and realize you've got a huge amount of work to do, but it's a thrill to see a book get stronger and stronger.

I'll probably get my galleys this week. There is a rumor that there is still an error in there-- a word at the start of a sentence that is not capitalized-- and I am dedicated to finding it. No, I don't think mistakes are part of my "voice."

The logic here is bizarre. If you respect your craft and your skills as a writer, you should believe that every time you work on your book it improves. How could an unedited book be better than an edited book? Words should not be paint flung at a canvas.

ResearchGuy
05-05-2008, 10:00 PM
. . . it's a thrill to see a book get stronger and stronger. . . .
In one case I know well, the agent (a relationship that was quickly terminated) wanted the manuscript (a memoir) cut and rewritten in ways that would have ruined it. It might have made it more commercially salable, but would have ruined the book. Fortunately, after the relationship with the agent was terminated, a small press took the book on and focused on the essential copyedits and fact-check corrections to polish the manuscript. Reader response and awards more than justify running from the agent and rejecting the devastating revisions.

--Ken

cethklein
05-05-2008, 10:29 PM
Hmmmm...going to have to agree with you on that. Cethklein...can you reign it in just a bit please? The problem is how PA does things, not the writers that are under contract with them.

I'm not trying to be rude, just joking around. But if you think it's going over the line, I can respect that. I'll tone it down.

JimmyD1318
05-06-2008, 03:27 AM
I'm not trying to be rude, just joking around. But if you think it's going over the line, I can respect that. I'll tone it down.

Thanks! Here a bag of POPCORN from my secret stash! Enjoy!:popcorn:

BarbJ
05-06-2008, 04:45 AM
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:Please...don't hurt your humble POPCORN MONSTER.:heart:

Never, ever, ever, I promise.

Regarding editors, Research Guy is right in pointing out there are some bad ones; not necessarily bad at editing, but wanting to write a book through someone else. But those are the handful among the thousands. Most are willing to discuss the whys and wherefores of the changes they suggest. Whether you agree with the suggestions or not, it will make you a better writer to be forced to think of your own whys and wherefores. Once you connect with a good editor, clutch on with taloned fingers, because they'll make your book a better read. Then, of course, they'll leave the publisher. :D

Lurkers, you've read enough from commercially published writers on AW to know edting involves more than spell-check. That's why PA is considered to not have editors no matter what they label those particular employees. A capable editor costs more, and PA is not willing to surrender any of their profits. Again, proof direct from PA that the target buyers are not the reading public but those writers who want to be called a "published author" without learning their craft. You deserve better.

Don't you?

Maddog
05-06-2008, 04:54 AM
Dick is no longer able to get on this messageboard.

I think he is the wisest writer on these boards, which makes me wonder why the rest of us are still here.

We will all miss his wisdom greatly.

Unfortunately, this nice lady will probably be the next one banned for telling the truth.

Christine N.
05-06-2008, 05:01 AM
I have yet to meet an editor who wouldn't listen to an author's reasoning behind NOT making edits. If you could come up with a good reason why you thought the edits wouldn't work, and could back it up, usually they compromise. Never had an editor who insisted on edit without discussion.

Dick got banned, huh? Well, eventually it was going to happen. I mean, how long could he hold his tongue?

As they say, the truth shall set you free...from PA.

Queen of Swords
05-06-2008, 05:10 AM
Dick got banned, huh? Well, eventually it was going to happen. I mean, how long could he hold his tongue?

Here's the link (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26274&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60). Let's see how long the post stays.

I wonder how he feels about PA now.

Jersey Chick
05-06-2008, 05:26 AM
Hmmm... sounds like it might be longer than a time-out (does PAMB even do timeouts??)

Interesting. Not surprising, but interesting.

Afinerosesheis
05-06-2008, 07:35 AM
I am surprised Dick got banned. He is better off.

Sparhawk
05-06-2008, 07:09 PM
He will! I can almost guarantee it! http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


More hints that Frenchie is more involved with PAvidia than we may think.

JimmyD1318
05-06-2008, 07:19 PM
More hints that Frenchie is more involved with PAvidia than we may think.

(Shudder!):scared:I have to say that even though I write horror...she scares me. Going to snuggle with my POPCORN and try to think happy thoughts.:popcorn:

Sheryl Nantus
05-06-2008, 07:21 PM
I'd be honored to get the chance to work with an editor to improve my writing. I have no delusion that every word out of my mind is golden or that it can't be made better.

Any writer who claims that they don't need editing is a fool and isn't serious about the craft.

'nuff said.

Sheryl Nantus
05-06-2008, 07:23 PM
More hints that Frenchie is more involved with PAvidia than we may think.

I actually don't think that she's on the PA payroll in any shape or form - I believe she's sincerely deluded and spends way more time online than she should with her "friends" on the PAMB playing Author: The RPG.

which, in its own sad way is even more depressing...

:(

TwentyFour
05-06-2008, 07:53 PM
Funny thing is about her, she actually lives near PA in Maryland. I know her kids have a practice just about an hour from the actual PA office.

TwentyFour
05-06-2008, 07:54 PM
It's rather odd the lady says she can guarantee he will return...

Jersey Chick
05-06-2008, 07:57 PM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26684&start=30

Oy.

I always have one person reading my work as I write it. That way things stay fresh in my head. When they find something I can try to correct it quickly.
Then my step mom read my manuscript when it was finished and marked it up for me. I corrected that and then proofed it myself before submitting it.
Then I RE-proofed the pages when PA gave them back.
You know what...there are still a few errors.
It happens. I think no one will ever catch ever single one...at least not without a team of professional editors at your beck and call!

Bolding mine - professional editors are what commercial publishers have. And why do you think they have them??

And yet - still no lightbulbs going off...

The same person, a couple of posts down:
That's where you need to make one clear rule...grammatical and mechanical editing only. Oh and I find having someone with absolutley no imagination of their own read through it helps too! Then you get zero suggestions on story lines!

Not so sure about this one - my husband's often my first reader and he's offered up some pretty decent suggestions that help. Not always, but to say no one can better my story but me strikes me as pretty short-sighted. What does she think an editor's going to do? Maybe not suggest major story-line changes, but plot points along that story line, perhaps. Or offer up a suggestion to make something work better that results in a change in the plot that you never saw coming...

TwentyFour
05-06-2008, 08:05 PM
Okay, this is even odder...

I looked it up once and found her kids were working just a mile from PA...now I look and cannot find it.

Sparhawk
05-06-2008, 09:03 PM
It's rather odd the lady says she can guarantee he will return...

Yeah, that struck me funny too; like she's got the inside track. I eluded to her post count earlier in this thread. I beleive she's almost at 17,000 posts. PAMB is her social life.

Christine N.
05-06-2008, 09:25 PM
My first Samhain book wouldn't have been accepted by them if I hadn't taken the editor's advice about tightening up the first half of the book.

Maybe that's half the problem...none of them want or will take advice on their books. Then when they get rejections, they blame the agent/editor. I can't say I take every suggestion given, but I weigh them carefully. The editor at Samhain didn't spell out what it would take for her to accept it, but she was pretty specific - "the scenes in the first half are too long; see if you can't combine them". I mulled it over, saw where it could be fixed, and voila! Contract.

Jersey Chick
05-06-2008, 09:32 PM
You can't go into it with the mindset of "this is my voice, ergo this is the only way it can be done." No one really wants to hear that this scene doesn't work, or that character isn't entirely believable - but it's so important because I know why this character says or does something - and that's it - I know him/her. A reader most likely isn't going to know the characters as intimately as I do, especially if it's early in the book. Do something to jar the reader out of the story and that's it. You may have lost them for good.

Part of growing is challenging yourself - finding ways to make it better. And for that, the ego needs to step aside - which is something they don't quite seem to grasp. It's not about you as the writer, it's about the story.

JimmyD1318
05-06-2008, 09:49 PM
My editor for my book helped me a great deal. There was something that happens in the middle of the book to the main character. With a suggestion from my editor, I was able to tie in a scene from the beginning of the book to the one in the middle. Just by adding one simple detail in the beginning. So...editors are a bad thing? As Jersey would say...*HEAD/DESK!*:Headbang:

Dave.C.Robinson
05-06-2008, 10:03 PM
You can't go into it with the mindset of "this is my voice, ergo this is the only way it can be done." No one really wants to hear that this scene doesn't work, or that character isn't entirely believable - but it's so important because I know why this character says or does something - and that's it - I know him/her. A reader most likely isn't going to know the characters as intimately as I do, especially if it's early in the book. Do something to jar the reader out of the story and that's it. You may have lost them for good.

Part of growing is challenging yourself - finding ways to make it better. And for that, the ego needs to step aside - which is something they don't quite seem to grasp. It's not about you as the writer, it's about the story.

But Jersey, that's not how Author the RPG works. You can't level up in the game that way.

cethklein
05-06-2008, 11:19 PM
Yeah, that struck me funny too; like she's got the inside track. I eluded to her post count earlier in this thread. I beleive she's almost at 17,000 posts. PAMB is her social life.

I'm almost certain she either works for PA or has been given a Moderator possition on PAMB. It SAYS at the top the board is only moderated by PA staffers although we can take that with a grain of salt. And again, she may BE a PA staffer.

I wouldn't put it past them to have people planted amongst the posters there. Although they could have gone with someone a bit more subtle.

As for Dick, I think this incident opened a lot of eyes there, although odds are msot will look past it in the long run. And I doubt he'll be back. PA would be foolish to allow him back knowing full well he'll likely lash out at them. If they've only banned him for a short time, odds are he'll lash out and get permanently banned upon his return. But again, I think he's already gone for good.

I think PA operates on the phylosophy of revolving authors. Meaning, even if everyone on PAMB sees what is going on, before long a new crop will arrive to take their place. If you notice, the population of old users there is very thin, most are relatively new. And the few oldies there are are all die-hard loyalists like Frenchie.

cethklein
05-06-2008, 11:48 PM
Well paint me a pale white and call me Michael Jackson, Dick is back. I guess I was wrong:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26274&start=60

I have been reinstated. For how long, who knows? Even The Shadow doesn't know.

And he responded about the way I said he would if he came back. Very interesting. I doubt he'll last long this time. This should be entertaining. Of course this lends more weight to the theory about Frenchie working for PA.

Queen of Swords
05-07-2008, 12:01 AM
Oh blast, cethklein beat me to it. :)

Jersey Chick
05-07-2008, 12:04 AM
But Jersey, that's not how Author the RPG works. You can't level up in the game that way.

I know - my bad :D

I can't help it - I think beyond the RPG rules. ;)

cethklein
05-07-2008, 12:12 AM
Oh blast, cethklein beat me to it. :)

The thing is, i wasn't even looking for him to post. I accidently clicked the "last page: link on that topic instead of another one and saw his post as I was gonig to hit the Back button.

While I figured he'd lash back, his post is kind of subdued compared to others he's made. I still don't see PA allowing him to stay for long.

Afinerosesheis
05-07-2008, 12:49 AM
I think PA operates on the phylosophy of revolving authors. Meaning, even if everyone on PAMB sees what is going on, before long a new crop will arrive to take their place.

That's exactly how it is. PA caters to the new authors, then soon after you get your author copies you're not so important anymore.

As far as French lady, she is just plain mean. I have personally dealt with her a number of times and I was always the one to get into trouble. James E. and Rudy back her up when she tears into someone, which she does often. They are never banned or called out for their words. I wonder if those three run the board. It is very biased in their favor.

Queen of Swords
05-07-2008, 03:27 AM
Open letter to the Author Support Team (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26748)

First I would like to offer that it is vailid complaint that PA does not include the bookstore purchaser on their statements. Failure to do so, does not permit PA and authors to target bookstores that are favorably inclined to promote and sell OUR books.

It may be a valid complaint, but what has it got to do with PA? PA doesn't sell books to bookstores, it sells them to authors. Therefore, PA has no incentive to put any more effort into your statements than it does already.

The author makes a few suggestions and ends with,

Short term notices of discounts by PA fail to gave impact because authors have to plan ahead before making any committment,

I invite authors and Pa to consider a dialogue to develop an effective marketing strategy. Your comments on this subject are welcomed.

What's interesting is that this isn't directed to the marketing department or the sales division, which I'd expect in any other company. Instead, it goes to the author support team. There are no names or contact people, and at the end it's just "PA", a monolithic entity that doesn't care about his marketing strategy because it's got one of its own - which works.

Mel
05-07-2008, 04:59 AM
And only 7 posts. Too new to have drank enough Kool-Aid yet. Wait until he finds out he is PA's market. Be interesting to see how he reacts down the road.

Unimportant
05-07-2008, 05:05 AM
To be fair, publishers in general won't include bookstore information on royalty sheets. They can't track where each book is sold, as there is a distributer/warehouser who is the middleman.

PVish
05-07-2008, 07:06 AM
And only 7 posts. Too new to have drank enough Kool-Aid yet. Wait until he finds out he is PA's market. Be interesting to see how he reacts down the road.

He's not a newbie to PA—only to posting. According to his website (http://www.freewebs.com/selbyparker/publications.htm), his first PA book was published in 2005; his second in 2006.

The post vanished between the time I read it and the time I went to the poster's website. Infocenter is busy tonight!

Mel
05-07-2008, 07:41 AM
Thanks, didn't check that. But, he's only now speaking up about this? PA doesn't market and they find that out soon enough.

TwentyFour
05-07-2008, 08:02 PM
Here's to insulting women everywhere

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26274&start=60

“When an argument flares up, the wise man quenches it with silence.”

I don't remembrer the name of the wise man who said that but, rest assured, it wasn't a woman.http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif
Well, on second thought, and I have a lot of those, it could have been Pier or Vickie. http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Jersey Chick
05-07-2008, 09:05 PM
My gut hurts from laughing


no really


it does


**pppppllllllbbbbttttt** (that's me giving ol' you-know-who a raspberry. i don't feel like looking for the raspberry-givin' smilie)

PVish
05-08-2008, 12:00 AM
Not only has Dick returned, but now he's giving info that some of the PA faithful probably won't want to hear* (in answer to a poster's question (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26749) about how to get a NYT review):

Forget a New York Times review. You won't get it. Even Harper/Collins, Little, Brown and other old-line publishers fall far short from getting all their books reviewed by the Times. Publishers Weekly stays away from POD books. Try your area newspapers; some of them review books by local authors, some do not. Don't waste your time with those "free" review sites and above all don't send them money for anything.

*makes it harder for them to play the Author RPG

Sheryl Nantus
05-08-2008, 12:05 AM
Not only has Dick returned, but now he's giving info that some of the PA faithful probably won't want to hear* (in answer to a poster's question (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26749) about how to get a NYT review):



*makes it harder for them to play the Author RPG

to be fair, this doesn't only apply to PublishAmerica - most book reviewers of note won't look at ANY POD publisher. PublishAmerica or not - if it's a POD publisher it won't get reviewed...

:(

Christine N.
05-08-2008, 01:59 AM
I'd amend Dick's advice to finding good, highly-trafficked review websites, places where you KNOW readers of the type of book you've got congregate. YA Books Central, for example, is well known in YA circles. People go there, and they read the reviews, and they buy the books that they read about there. Not about the kudos, but about selling books, in that case. Romance is lousy with the things - tons of review sites who review books and PEOPLE BUY THEM. Not a bad idea to hit a few.

It doesn't work with all types of books, but if you spend any time with others who write what you do, you'll find out where to go.

Jersey Chick
05-08-2008, 04:27 AM
I'll second the romance review sites - there are a lot and quite a few are very well known. :D

Queen of Swords
05-08-2008, 02:37 PM
The rationale behind PAMB time-outs (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26274&start=60)

From D. K. Christi :

I read a post once where the infocenter said they cut off some threads and posters because some people dominated the board and they wanted to give new people a chance. Mine was one that was cut off so I stayed scarce for awhile. Dick, is that what happened to you?

The people who have posted the longest have a teaching perspective and the newbies a desire to learn. That seems a good blend to me, but who am I? I only know I learned everything I know about publishing right here.

The last sentence says it all.

JimmyD1318
05-08-2008, 03:51 PM
The last sentence says it all.


:e2smack:
I learned what little I know of the publishing business from a much better place. Right here with all of you. The only bad side effect that I have had is that all of you turned me into a POPCORN loving MONSTER. A very small price to pay if you ask me.:D

allenparker
05-08-2008, 05:41 PM
:e2smack:
I learned what little I know of the publishing business from a much better place. Right here with all of you. The only bad side effect that I have had is that all of you turned me into a POPCORN loving MONSTER. A very small price to pay if you ask me.:D


Might I suggest our new Popcorn Anonymous group? Just do a search for PA and take the first link to their site. In no time at all you will have given up popcorn for KoolAide. (some side effects, such as low sales, low self esteem and heightened awareness of a smaller wallet may occur.)

Jersey Chick
05-08-2008, 07:04 PM
I think patience is the hardest virtue to develop... lol The whole process is really not that long, if you think about it. I suspect PA people are pretty busy, especially if you look at the New Release page on the website. It seems like they get about 50 books out a week! And you don't wonder how it's physically possible to get all of those books out? It never seems odd that turnaround time is so quick and that so many books are released? Hmmm... there's really only one logical conclusion - unless, of course, you have partaken in the KoolAid.

And then this:

Once you get your book in your hand you'll realize how fast the whole process was. I've said it before and I'll say it again: bigger publishing houses take FOREVER to get your book out. My friend sent her manuscript in to Llewellyn last July and it is STILL in the editing phase....

That's because it's actually BEING edited - by a publisher who sells to the general public, who CARES about the quality of their product.

Oy.

Impatience - a sure way to fall into PA's slimepit.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26732

TwentyFour
05-08-2008, 07:14 PM
http://www.buy.com/search/q/loc/106/search_store/3/querytype/book_publisher/quType/5/qu/publishamerica.html

So someone mentions where their book is on the top 100 PA book list, check out who is number one!

1. How to Break Into the Porn Industry
Our Low Price: $19.95
Availability: In Stock: Usually Ships in 1 to 2 business days
FREE SHIPPING on orders over $25
Available from other merchants - Low Price: $20.30

Author: Gregory, Christopher L. Publisher: PublishAmerica
Publish Date: 7/3/2007 Format: Paperback

DaveKuzminski
05-08-2008, 08:22 PM
I notice that several PA books on the top twenty of that list are erotic or beyond and PA had the nerve to call me a pornographer years ago for discussing in a forum the use of risque scenes in stories?

Marie Pacha
05-08-2008, 09:00 PM
And did you notice that at least books 1, 4, 6 and 7 have the same sales rank? Number 2 is different.

Gravity
05-08-2008, 09:14 PM
http://www.buy.com/search/q/loc/106/search_store/3/querytype/book_publisher/quType/5/qu/publishamerica.html

So someone mentions where their book is on the top 100 PA book list, check out who is number one!

Porn Guy!!! Number one with a bullet. Wonder how close he is to the "fifty thousand sales" he crowed about. Something tells me he's still better than forty-nine thousand short...

James D. Macdonald
05-08-2008, 10:40 PM
Here's a graph showing how Porn Guy's doing: http://charteo.us/amzn/items/1424172063

And here are his numbers from Ingram:


On hand: 0
On order: 0
On backorder: 0

This week's sales: 0
Last week's sales: 1

Total sales this year: 28
Total sales last year: 16

There you see what it takes to be the PA #1 best seller.

Dave.C.Robinson
05-08-2008, 10:55 PM
Here's a graph showing how Porn Guy's doing: http://charteo.us/amzn/items/1424172063

And here are his numbers from Ingram:


On hand: 0
On order: 0
On backorder: 0

This week's sales: 0
Last week's sales: 1

Total sales this year: 28
Total sales last year: 16

There you see what it takes to be the PA #1 best seller.

At least he's into double digits.

Gravity
05-08-2008, 11:10 PM
You think by now he'd have a better grasp of the situation; maybe have a stronger knowledge of the pull and thrust of the free market. But truth can be a slippery commodity. I just hope he's protected himself against the harsh hot showers of approbation a hard-charging effort such as his engenders. Sometimes critics can leave one spent and gasping. But I'm sure he'll ride the wave until the end.

Okay, I'm done now... :D

Queen of Swords
05-08-2008, 11:30 PM
Life after PA? (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26765)

The lady with the sweet dear autistic husband posted to say,

I just found someone who will match up authors with agents, he is working on my third book "VICTORY AFTER ABUSE" right now! He is wonderful to work with. PA will take your work without an agent but the marketing is up to you. I don't have the money to do my books justice! This way, since they work on commission...I am sure to sell lots more of books! I am so excited about this door God has opened up for me! My third book is going to be HUGE! I can't wait! What do you think?

The title of her thread on that board is "Jeff Rivera"... the same Jeff Rivera who's a member here?

I'm not sure why she needs someone to match her up with an agent, unless she's unable to do the research on her own. She may not be entirely aware of the realities of the publishing industry either.

Jersey Chick
05-08-2008, 11:39 PM
Just reading her post, I'm a little confused - why does she think having an agent will sell more books? Once an agents sells to an editor, the rest is up to the publisher and buying public, isn't it? The agent then works on the next project (depending on the author agreement, I suppose) and that's that. Isn't it?

Sheryl Nantus
05-09-2008, 12:40 AM
She may not be entirely aware of the realities of the publishing industry either.

I'm smelling scam.

:(

JimmyD1318
05-09-2008, 12:53 AM
You think by now he'd have a better grasp of the situation; maybe have a stronger knowledge of the pull and thrust of the free market. But truth can be a slippery commodity. I just hope he's protected himself against the harsh hot showers of approbation a hard-charging effort such as his engenders. Sometimes critics can leave one spent and gasping. But I'm sure he'll ride the wave until the end.

Okay, I'm done now... :D

Ohhhh...dear God!:ROFL:And I've been told that I have a sick mind! Gravity...can you please take me under your wing and teach me how to truly have a twisted mind? Please...? How many bags of POPCORN from my secret stash will it take? Ten, twenty, one hundard...just name your price!

James D. Macdonald
05-09-2008, 12:56 AM
An agent who can sell your book to a good market will gain you more sales, simply because the market he/she found is a good one.

Victory After Abuse, I think, details her adventures before meeting her current husband.

I believe that the Jeff Rivera she's talking about is the same fellow who's a member here. He gives advice on finding agents here (http://www.bookmarket.com/agents2.htm) and here (http://s230613726.onlinehome.us/wp/?p=247), for example.

Jersey Chick
05-09-2008, 03:29 AM
Right - I understand that - but it seems to me (and maybe I'm just not reading it right) that she's saying an agent will push her books to make more $$ - and I'm thinking she might thinking that an agent actually physically sells copies once it's been released...

I don't know - but I hope I am wrong, or she'll be very disappointed, should she get an agent...