PAMB and its quotes [Archive] - Page 39 - Absolute Write Water Cooler

Afinerosesheis

04-21-2008, 09:46 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584

Today PublishAmerica is issuing the following announcement. All authors are receiving a personal email from our support team as we speak.
Feel free to debate!

----------------------------------------------

PublishAmerica is drastically reducing sales prices of all titles on its own website!

A little background: A few weeks ago we shared with you news about the pressure that many publishers were receiving from online vendor Amazon.com. As you know, PublishAmerica refused to budge. Today we can also report that this was not the first time that Amazon attempted to strong-arm PublishAmerica.

Roughly a year ago Amazon forced PublishAmerica to raise the pricing of our own books on our own website. They would not allow us to sell our almost 30,000 titles at sales prices lower than what Amazon chose to charge, and they threatened us with the very same retaliation that followed a year later after all. We complied at the time, and have been charging full list price in our own online store, because Amazon also charged full list price.

Staring down the bully: Now that Amazon has decided to punish PublishAmerica anyway for resisting further bullying, the time has come to reduce prices in our own online bookstore. And as an introductory step we will now slash our prices in half.

That's right: all book sales on PublishAmerica's website are at a 50 pct discount. Royalties are paid on all online sales. Go see for yourself at www.publishamerica.com. (http://www.publishamerica.com./)

The introductory offer will expire April 28, when discounts will go back to approximately where they were before Amazon first attempted to dictate the nation's vending terms.

Thank you!

PublishAmerica Author Support team

Bolding, mine.

Christine N.

04-21-2008, 09:51 PM

See, that is actually honest. I've heard from other publishers that there is a no-competition clause at Amazon, and Fictionwise as well. The publisher cannot undersell Amazon.

Do I really think that has anything to do with what's going on at PA? Not a chance. I think Amazon charged something reasonable, and PA charged $5 more than necessary. Do I know that for sure? No, it's just a guess, because I don't have the time to go and research it.

Ann Onamuss

04-21-2008, 10:01 PM

Looks like another high pressure sales tactic to me. "Buy now!!!"

endless rewrite

04-21-2008, 10:05 PM

How much have the books been reduced by?

PVish

04-21-2008, 10:07 PM

Hmmm. Sounds like PA needs money fast. Wonder what for?

However, this is suspicious:
Roughly a year ago Amazon forced PublishAmerica to raise the pricing of our own books on our own website. They would not allow us to sell our almost 30,000 titles at sales prices lower than what Amazon chose to charge, and they threatened us with the very same retaliation that followed a year later after all. We complied at the time, and have been charging full list price in our own online store, because Amazon also charged full list price.

I doubt that Amazon "forced" PA to set particular prices. PA "chose" to have books listed on Amazon, but of course had to allow Amazon a discount.

The vanity POD I've used made it clear up-front how much its books would sell for (based on page count) when I contracted with them, and they've never "forced me to buy in bulk. The discount is the same 40% off, no matter how many or few I buy, and they also give me that discount if I buy books by any of their other authors.

If PA were really "staring down the bully," the special prices wouldn't just be for a week; they'd be permanent. At least one PA author wishes they would be:

Thanks PA for making our books competitive in the Market Place.

[One title] is now $12.48 Approx. and [another title] $9.40 Approx. at the PA bookstore.
This is such great news and I believe it should be made permanent. Better to sell volume if possible. Way to go PA!

And another PA author has a question:
Info center...That is a very great tactic...Many of us will benefit by that move. .Now here is a question..Can you answer now or privately in an email to me. . . ? As an author buying my own books, will my 40 percent discount for 50 books be considered for the retail price of $24.95 or this new half pricing until April 28 at app. $13.00?

Sparhawk

04-21-2008, 10:12 PM

Sounds like PA needs to generate some operating revenue and fast. The bottom line must be hemmorhaging red ink.

This is just another PA firesale for it's happy authors. Apprarently they didn't move enough product the last time. The Hellocopter payment is probably due.

Christine N.

04-21-2008, 10:13 PM

It is true that you're not allow to undersell Amazon, but if they chose to, PA could have been far more reasonable in their original MSRP's. I mean, other books printed by LSI and other digital printers are sold in the marketplace for far cheaper. So it's really just smoke and mirrors to make PA look good.

What do they need the quick cash for? Hmm...

Ann Onamuss

04-21-2008, 10:17 PM

From the PAMB (bolding mine)

Unfortunately, I consider this last price-slashing move by PA no different than the usual "big sale" coming every other month or so, since it lasts only until April 28th.

This is not an answer to Amazon. This is an offer to us.

and this

I appreciate the move, but also question the April 28th deadline for the offer.

I also appreciate the information and have always thought that working together we could dispel rumors and both earn money on our books by selling more.

I think we all need to share information and ideas.

Will there be a chance for prices on the other online bookstores to decrease as well?

(I didn't get a personal email about this and would appreciate it, although I have read it here.)

Jersey Chick

04-21-2008, 10:21 PM

Someone's getting thisclose to having their password no longer working.

Hmm.. questioning the deadline? Here's what PA's really saying,

"Buy it NOW or miss out and pay the same overinflated price as you would have before. Hurry. Don't think about it. Just DO IT!"

DaveKuzminski

04-21-2008, 10:26 PM

More than likely, PA needs to hire more attorneys as well as generate some instant good PR. Otherwise, they'd make the prices permanent and the PR would actually do them some good. As it stands now, their motives are transparent.

kullervo

04-21-2008, 10:43 PM

Ah, the sweet smell of a company trying to make payroll after income tax day...

Queen of Swords

04-21-2008, 10:45 PM

Not all the responses are "You go, PA!" (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584)

In order for it to be effective, it would need to last indefintely or at a minimum of at least 6 months.
2 day shipping vs 2 weeks would also be very attractive to the impaitent and impulsive buyer.

Should PA decide to keep the pricing low on their site, I would be more than happy to market it, as I belive the volumes would increase tremendously with the lower price. However, we need time to be able to market it. A one week price reduction is ineffective to me.

I feel bad for this author in particular :

Although I understand what PublishAmerica is TRYING to do, I really must protest this under-cutting of prices without any warning to PA authors. I just purchased $763.47 worth of books which is $14.97 per book 'wholesale' and PA is now selling my book at $12.48 RETAIL. This is very, very bad news for authors because we now have books we cannot sell when our customers see the drastic difference in the price. I have not even recceived my order that I paid the higher price for, and now the books cannot be sold. This has got to be addressed!

But... but... at least you didn't pay to be published.

Poor guy. Well over seven hundred dollars worth of books. He's a honeymooner, but what a way to wake up.

Afinerosesheis

04-21-2008, 10:58 PM

I don't think it will make a bit of difference. How many people are going to rush into the PA bookstore to buy unknown books? Not many. Now if this were going to be permanent AND go to the other online outlets, it might be a beginning to brighter things, but no more than that.

My book is 10.98 over there in answer to someone's question. (was 21.95)

kullervo

04-21-2008, 11:00 PM

We're Having a Flail Sale!!!

Christine N.

04-21-2008, 11:02 PM

For the record, on the occasion I have to order books for a non-bookseller event, or just to have a copy or two for the occasional request for an autographed copy, I pay way less than $14/book...every day. And never up front. My publisher does NOT have my credit card number.

cethklein

04-21-2008, 11:06 PM

A 50% reduction doesn't look so hot when you consider the fact PA's books were priced 200% above what they should have been to begin with.

stormie

04-21-2008, 11:09 PM

We're Having a Flail Sale!!!
Sure seems like it. :e2drown:

And I wonder how long those posts questioning infocenter (love how the 3 are referred to as "infocenter") will stay up.

DaveKuzminski

04-21-2008, 11:40 PM

Maybe they're trying to fuel up the Hellocopter for an escape to Europe. Hmmm, if so, doesn't that limit the seats to Willem and one other? Now, who's going to be left behind?

stormie

04-22-2008, 12:02 AM

Maybe they're trying to fuel up the Hellocopter for an escape to Europe. Hmmm, if so, doesn't that limit the seats to Willem and one other? Now, who's going to be left behind?
Probably the one who doesn't delete enough posts that question PA.

ResearchGuy

04-22-2008, 12:08 AM

Some do but not all. She could have easily found one that doesn't. PA WILL harass her, that is 100% assured.
Ok, in that case, perhaps you will find one that doesn't and post the name here. If it is so easy, that is. The next question would be how their up-front charges compare to the others.

--Ken

Gillhoughly

04-22-2008, 01:03 AM

Sounds like PA needs to generate some operating revenue and fast.

I'll bet real money it's to pay for fuel for Willie the Wanker's Hellocopter. Prices have gone up, after all.

Since he can't land on hospital roofs, he must also have to pay for a limo to get him and his lame greeting cards to the joint. Think he pulls up to the emergency room entrance since the parking is closer? All those people rushing out and making a big fuss must be good for his ego.

The bottom line must be hemmorhaging red ink.

That's probably not red ink, but the blood of the people the Stooges have ripped off.

cethklein

04-22-2008, 01:13 AM

Ok, in that case, perhaps you will find one that doesn't and post the name here. If it is so easy, that is. The next question would be how their up-front charges compare to the others.

--Ken

Hey, relax. Why are you so defensive? This is PublishAmerica we're talking about, surely you aren't defending them????

But yes I'll name one, Xlibris. Most people I've spoken to who have worked with them claimed they never felt forced to buy anything. (maybe some have but no one I can recall has mentioned it.)

And yes I am aware of Xlibris' other shady business practices (such as their "marketing plans") But we're not talking about that, and those wouldn't effect her if she plans solely to have some copies for her kids.

Or again, she could just use LuLu. Anything is better than PublishAmerica.

ResearchGuy

04-22-2008, 01:28 AM

. . .Xlibris. Most people I've spoken to who have worked with them claimed they never felt forced to buy anything. . . ..
Thanks for the info. I know some people who have used xLibris. Never heard a complaint about the company--not that I recall. The list price on one of the books was surprisingly reasonable, too. (Don't know how much the author paid for it to be published, though.) Others that I've seen, not so reasonable.

Not forced to buy anything except the publishing package, I assume you mean, as it is strictly a pay-to-play company.

The snarky shot was unnecessary, BTW.

--Ken

triceretops

04-22-2008, 02:36 AM

Although I understand what PublishAmerica is TRYING to do, I really must protest this under-cutting of prices without any warning to PA authors. I just purchased $763.47 worth of books which is $14.97 per book 'wholesale' and PA is now selling my book at $12.48 RETAIL. This is very, very bad news for authors because we now have books we cannot sell when our customers see the drastic difference in the price. I have not even recceived my order that I paid the higher price for, and now the books cannot be sold. This has got to be addressed!

Just relax my friend. It was a matter of bad timing. It will all be over in one week. It's a ruse--a firesale. There will not be crowds rushing in there to take advantage of these fantastic price drops and leave you high and dry. (Remember that you are stranded for seven years, so settle down). But what you might do is invest some more and get that extra discount, since you appear to have deep pockets.

PA are masters of disguise and camoulflage. At one time they might have come through the front door to get you. Now it's more common to see them coming in the back or side door. Or slithering up through a broken window in the basement. They are still going to get to you. Only they are running just a little short on methods of how to do it without you catching on.

I love the bit about Amazon forcing them. No one forces PA. PA is the enforcer.

AW has probably saved hundreds, maybe thousands of people from the clutches of PA over a three-year period. We have 500--700 visitors to this site at any given time, in constant rotation. The Bewares thread is the most popular, and chances are the PA discussions suck in the most readers.

To those PA authors who have landed in the rattler's nest, not knowing it: I wish you well and consider you a cherished fellow writer. You need to face the facts and find another publisher. Write more than one book, and make it a better one each time. Take those rejections in stride and learn from them. I would be very proud to bump into you on the internet and become friends--some of sweetest ex-PA authors are in and have been part of AW for a very long time, and we get them every day. We welcome them, not to remind of where they've been, but where they can go--the sky's the limit. AW is a free writing university for everyone.

To the other PA authors who openly shill for this printer, take PA's view of the publishing industry as gospel, refuse to hit the google button, and willingly enlist other newbies into PA's clutches, I bestow upon you my profuse thanks. Stay right where you are. Because you are out of my slush pile.

Tri

PVish

04-22-2008, 02:40 AM

As authors call for a new PA bookstore (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584):
Yep, a new book store just for us.

Books by the People!!!
(Insert Company Logo)
A company made in America, global in reach

1 Book of the Week with complete history
2 New releases for the week
3 A section for Authors in the News
4 Books made into Movies
5 Current discounts
6 Poster size book Covers for walls - I'd put one up - It would look good next to my Dollar
7 Mouse pads with book covers or PA's Logo
8 Calendars - single page with all twelve months on it
9 Pictures at the beginning of each category - Like kids at a play ground for childrens books
10 A counter at the bottom so we can see how many are visiting - daily and a total count
11 A section for e-books
Etc., etc. and so forth

I see it as a Win - Win situation. Down with Amazon, up with PA!!!

Wonder how Infocenter will respond to this?

cethklein

04-22-2008, 03:00 AM

Thanks for the info. I know some people who have used xLibris. Never heard a complaint about the company--not that I recall. The list price on one of the books was surprisingly reasonable, too. (Don't know how much the author paid for it to be published, though.) Others that I've seen, not so reasonable.

Not forced to buy anything except the publishing package, I assume you mean, as it is strictly a pay-to-play company.

The snarky shot was unnecessary, BTW.

--Ken

Don't take it as a snarky shot, i was genuinely wondering if you're defending PA as I wasn't sure. No harm intended.

kullervo

04-22-2008, 05:22 AM

thecraftteens

04-22-2008, 07:24 AM

^kullervo, are you sure you can do that? I don't want you to get sued by PA for "defaming" their "good" name. They won't attack us too much because we are small. But think of what they'll do if they find out authors are using their "celebrity status" --or so PA will claim-- to "attack" them.

TwentyFour

04-22-2008, 07:46 AM

Roughly a year ago Amazon forced PublishAmerica to raise the pricing of our own books on our own website. They would not allow us to sell our almost 30,000 titles at sales prices lower than what Amazon chose to charge, and they threatened us with the very same retaliation that followed a year later after all. We complied at the time, and have been charging full list price in our own online store, because Amazon also charged full list price.

Staring down the bully: Now that Amazon has decided to punish PublishAmerica anyway for resisting further bullying, the time has come to reduce prices in our own online bookstore. And as an introductory step we will now slash our prices in half.

You've got to be kidding????

If that is why PA books are so high, why wouldn't they offer this discount more often? And why wouldn't they offer them to people who just had a book out for booksignings?

DamaNegra

04-22-2008, 08:14 AM

Don't take it as a snarky shot, i was genuinely wondering if you're defending PA as I wasn't sure. No harm intended.

Well what if he is? It's been stated over and over and over again that the PA business model does work for some people. ResearchGuy was just pointing that out.

kullervo

04-22-2008, 09:22 AM

My lawyers could beat up their lawyer.

Christine N.

04-22-2008, 02:08 PM

Kullervo, not worth it. I don't use the 's' word, because they weasel-word just enough to get out of being totally lying. Just point out that for someone looking to have more exposure than their immediate circle of friends and family, and for someone that really has a book ready to publish, there are better choices. There are plenty of facts that should keep any author who wants a career away from them.

cethklein

04-22-2008, 03:04 PM

I'm working on my author website now. A paid one, not a freebie with advertising. I've been through art school and design school, so I think I'll have a pretty nice site when I'm done. What I am looking forward to most is the warning against publishing scams. And yes, PA, you will be there. When I go on my book tour, you will be there. When I go to conferences, you will be there. Every stop along my road, you will be there.

Same here. I plan to do a pretty thorough FAQ on the subject. But since I'm by no means an expert I also plan to link to Piers Anthony and P&E if we're allowed to.

^kullervo, are you sure you can do that? I don't want you to get sued by PA for "defaming" their "good" name. They won't attack us too much because we are small. But think of what they'll do if they find out authors are using their "celebrity status" --or so PA will claim-- to "attack" them.

You won't get sued as long as you're vague. Saying "PA sucks, they're a scam" might be risky but if you just advise people on how to spot scams you'd be ok. I wish all authors would put up guides like this to increase exposure.

Jersey Chick

04-22-2008, 05:09 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=6f7b98533801cd0c3c322c96d34704ed

I get the impression Publish America is trying to become more commercialized and competitive in the publishing market. Each little step goes on to be better steps. Keep going this route, Publish America. The company has the ability to become competitive with book prices, industry discounted store returns, etc. Keep it up!
But only until the 28th... then is't Business as Usual... They don't care about becoming more commercialize and competitive - they need a quick influx of cash...

<sigh>

DaveKuzminski

04-22-2008, 05:16 PM

Same here. I plan to do a pretty thorough FAQ on the subject. But since I'm by no means an expert I also plan to link to Piers Anthony and P&E if we're allowed to.

P&E welcomes links and encourages quoting from our information. Just be sure to ask permission for anything that's attributed to writers who shared their articles on P&E in the Opinion section.

cethklein

04-22-2008, 06:02 PM

Well if I linked anything it would likely just b to P&E itself. That way I don't have to worry about inadvertantly copying something over there that isn't mine. Besides I think linking people to P&E and letting them do the digging is the best option. That way they'll see everything. I firmly believe all new writers should HAVE to read over P&E and AW for a week before submitting anything. It would save a lot of heartache and likely put groups like PublishAmerica out of business.

Here's a question for anyone who might know, whay hasn't the BBB ever been called in on PA? We always hear about individuals fsuing them but why hasn't BBB ever been called in? or have they?

Gravity

04-22-2008, 06:26 PM

The BBB considers it a business-to-business transaction; not their bailiwick.

Queen of Swords

04-22-2008, 06:48 PM

The post which said,

Unfortunately, I consider this last price-slashing move by PA no different than the usual "big sale" coming every other month or so, since it lasts only until April 28th.

This is not an answer to Amazon. This is an offer to us.

has been removed from the thread about PA's half-off offer.

Other authors encourage PA to keep the prices permanently slashed and one of them hopes that Amazon will somehow go out of business this way (logical connection between the two not exactly clear to me). The best part, however, was this (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15).

But you don't need to be a brain surgeon to realize that if the half- pricing stays the same after April 28, the author makes nothing by buying and selling his own books at the 50 percent slashed price of his book. He just has stock and possible royalties.

Stock? What does the author have stock in, PA? Anyway, at least this author knows that royalties, with PA, are "possible" but not probable.

The author will not be able to compete with his own publisher in selling his books.

This is wrong on so many levels. On the other hand, it's just right for PA - if authors there weren't able to outdo PA when it comes to selling books to readers, they would have no readership at all.

There needs to be another cut in the price for the author beyond the half price of his retail price set by PA. Otherwise, the author makes nothing because he can't sell his book for more than the "half-price" offer and what he also paid for his own book. In this case, the author becomes just another buyer of his own books.

And this is a bad thing because...? It's a common, accepted and encouraged practice on that board, after all. Another author replies,

PA must make money when they sell books to us. I know it is probably more efficient to print a lot of our books to sell to us rather than just one to sell to someone else, but I think with cheaper books, with the author still being able to get their books at a bargain price, we would all make money.

This author is a veteran, so she seems to know what PA's modus operandi is. But she's still hopeful that PA will somehow keep the price lower than normal after April 28.

kullervo

04-22-2008, 06:57 PM

Okay, I toned it down a little. I just get so grrrrrrr....

:Soapbox:

JimmyD1318

04-22-2008, 07:04 PM

Queen of Swords

04-22-2008, 07:19 PM

Two PA authors have taken advantage of the half-off sale to start threads in the Author's Lounge advertising their books. "Order it NOW before the price goes back up!" one of them advises.

ResearchGuy

04-22-2008, 07:25 PM

. . . why hasn't the BBB ever been called in on PA? We always hear about individuals suing them but why hasn't BBB ever been called in? or have they?
This is old territory, brought up time and again here and explained time and again here.

The publisher-author relationship is business-to-business. BBB has no interest in that. Likewise, governmental consumer-protection agencies are not interested in those relationships, which is why they never get involved. This is not in dispute, regardless of PA's peculiar vanity-press model.

Those approaches have been tried repeatedly and they fail every time for the same reason.

--Ken

cethklein

04-22-2008, 07:35 PM

Like Barry, I just bought 60 copies of my new book, Lost River Inn, at a fifty percent discount. When shipping and taxes (I live in Maryland) were added, the total cost to me was $11.13 per book. PA will be selling them for $9.97/copy. I also recently bought a supply of my first book, Pendencia Creek at a 40% discount. My cost; $14.97 + shipping + taxes. PA will now be selling them for $12.48/copy.

So in other words, this genius just spent over SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS o his own books and this person thinks HE got a deal. I know I said I feel sorry for PA authors but stuff like this is making me rethink that. He continues:

I've only had one complaint about the cost of my books and, at my pricing, I have been able to net a few bucks on each one sold. Now, at least for this week, I hope many of my potential customers don't look in the PA bookstore or I'll have "a lot of 'splainin, to do," because I've been telling them of the great deal I am able to give them on price ... plus my signature to boot!

I think I actually felt myself get dumber after reading that.

(This next bit is from a different person by the way).

With my book previously at $34.95 it's now so much more affordable, way to go PA that should put a spoke in Amazons cogs and they thoroughly deserve it to, amazon that is! I would also vote for extending the deadline let's get amazon to back down Bravo PA for taking a courageous stand!

Oh no! Amazon might miss out on.....eight sales! That will put a spoke in their cog! :Shrug: Also, news flash Spanky, you don't have a "vote" with PA. (Who am I kidding, this is probably one of PA's plants on the forum, there's no way anyone is that naive................right..............right????)

Also, on the subject of business-to-business, that is one way of looking at it. But since the authors BUY their books from PA they are in essence customers. So the BBB could get involved.

TwentyFour

04-22-2008, 07:53 PM

Actually he asked me on myspace to be added to my site, but before his asking he sent me a message asking me to promote his book on my page....I told him why I wouldn't and gave him reasons to my decision, including P&E and AW. He said he had another book in his series and hopes to find a new publisher but will promote this one since it is already out. I doubt he's a planted member there. He already said he had doubts before he even had his book out.

ResearchGuy

04-22-2008, 08:00 PM

. . . since the authors BUY their books from PA they are in essence customers. So the BBB could get involved.
It WILL NOT. Period. The argument carries NO weight with BBB or with consumer-protection agencies. The authors are buying the books within their business-to-business contract with PA.

No matter how peculiar the relationship is between PA and its authors, those agencies will NOT get involved in author-PA disputes qua consumer issues.

Now, if PA fails to deliver paid-for books ordered by consumers who are NOT authors buying their own books, that is a different matter.

--Ken

cethklein

04-22-2008, 08:04 PM

It WILL NOT. Period. The argument carries NO weight with BBB or with consumer-protection agencies. The authors are buying the books within their business-to-business contract with PA.

No matter how peculiar the relationship is between PA and its authors, those agencies will NOT get involved in author-PA disputes qua consumer issues.

Now, if PA fails to deliver paid-for books ordered by consumers who are NOT authors buying their own books, that is a different matter.

--Ken

I never said the BBB would I said they should. This is another one of the ways PA scams people is with "business to business" contracts. Give the people credit, as sleazy as they are, they at least got good legal advice on how to skirt the system.

ResearchGuy

04-22-2008, 08:17 PM

I never said the BBB would I said they should. This is another one of the ways PA scams people is with "business to business" contracts. Give the people credit, as sleazy as they are, they at least got good legal advice on how to skirt the system.
The word you used was "could," not "should." No, they can't.

As for "should" -- no, not really even that. BBB deals only with its own members. Its members pay for membership. Hence, BBB has no incentive to drive away members. Beyond that, BBB's purview is strictly consumer-business disputes. It cannot interject itself into business-business disputes, both because of its own organizational charter and because to do so would put it on a slippery slope. Where would it draw the line once it has (in violation of its own charter) attempted to interject itself into one business-business relationship? Not to mention that PA could put an end to that intervention instantly by resigning from BBB!

But do feel free to write to BBB (as so many others have), or to, say, an attorney general or a governor (as I did myself years ago). You will get the same response: "We do not get involved in business-to-business disputes, as they are not consumer issues."

I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, really, and I know your heart is in the right place. But I am trying to head off yet another go-round of a fruitless discussion that has been held on AW again and again and again over the three years I have been participating here.

--Ken

Sparhawk

04-22-2008, 08:30 PM

Yeah, the folks at Fortress Frederick have their business plan well thought out and have executed it perfectly. It pains me to admit this but I almost have to admire the tenacity with which they stay in business, plus they are seemingly immune to all the bad press and the piss poor reputation among credible literary sources.

Bottom line; they make money, probably a great deal of money. I dare say not so much as they used to but enough to continue on with their operations and keep milking the cash cows with special "Promotions." It almost makes we want to start a Publish America type agency myself. If I had no conscience and low morals and no principals and cared only about money and not a lick about the damage I was doing to new writers in the process.

Here's what I fail to grasp. IF PA actually went legit and promoted themselves as what they really were; I beleive they'd still have a flock of new authors. The serious writers who wanted more wouldn't get ensnared and the casual RPG'ers could exist happily with their twenty sided dice and pretend. They could still publish Aunt Millie's recipe book and Bill's family memoir. Millie and Bill would truly be happy PA authors. THere'd be no need for tone letters, and no need for lawyers et al.

I guess there's alot more naive (And I don't use that term that to be mean) writers who want to make it then there are RPG'ers. Hell, I was one too awhile back. The Kool-aide was sweet and the delusion sweeter. I find the actual publishing experience far surpasses the PA one though.

Also... does Random House, DAW or any other major publisher have a PAMB type message board?

Jersey Chick

04-22-2008, 08:39 PM

Now, if PA fails to deliver paid-for books ordered by consumers who are NOT authors buying their own books, that is a different matter.

--Ken

I wonder about those orders paid by check. If PA tosses the check and never sends the books - what is that considered? Seriously... a lost order? An oversight? I'd like to know how many (if any) people who bought books this way - or tried to buy books this way - and never received them, contacted PA about it. And I'd like to know how how PA resolved it, if at all.

Mel

04-22-2008, 08:56 PM

I thought PA resolved it by ignoring it. :Shrug:

Might be prudent to remember that PA is in it for the money and the control. Control freaks are a species that can be hard to understand unless you've lived with one or know one personally. They'll justify everything the say and do. They're right, you're wrong. Always.

cethklein

04-22-2008, 09:00 PM

Oh no, trust me, I have no intention of doing anything with the BBB, I was just asking based on the fact PA charges authors for their books.

Jersey Chick

04-22-2008, 09:12 PM

Well, I kinda figured PA just ignored it - but I wonder what'd happen if someone really pushed them on it. Or if they'd just write it off, seeing as how their check was never cashed.

Mel

04-22-2008, 09:24 PM

Well, I kinda figured PA just ignored it - but I wonder what'd happen if someone really pushed them on it. Or if they'd just write it off, seeing as how their check was never cashed.

I know. :)

I've been wondering too, with what's been posted here lately. It's the consumers who would need to report PA. But how many feel they are going out of their way to do so? If every consumer who paid by check and didn't receive their order complained to the BBB that might put a bigger dent in PA. Except, those consumers would have to know about the BBB and that they can send a complaint, and most likely many of them don't know.

And I possibly don't have a clue what I'm talking about, either.;)

Maddog

04-22-2008, 09:50 PM

Half price books, double price shipping. I get it now. From PAMB

Infocenter, a group I'm associated with tried to order 30 of my books for a fundraiser online, and it added $60 for shipping. I was able to call PA and get that corrected, but someone should look into that to be sure it doesn't happen to someone else.

ResearchGuy

04-22-2008, 11:47 PM

. . . based on the fact PA charges authors for their books.
Well, actually, that is not the problem. Although many publishers provide some free copies to their authors as part of the contract or as an outright courtesy (maybe with restrictions against selling them), they also charge authors who want to buy more for their own purposes (sales from back of the room, gifts, or whatever). No publisher is obligated to give books away. My late father edited a very prominent dictionary published by a major house. He bought copies from the publisher (a case of books now and then over the years) for gifts, and stopped when he could get them cheaper at a warehouse store (back then it was Price Club).

The problem with PA is that it is a particularly deceptive vanity press. Not everyone is satisfied with that deception (although some are, as it is part of the package, allowing them to join The Authorial Role Playing Game).

FWIW.

--Ken

P.S. All vanity and subsidy presses charge the authors for their books. To go after PA on that count would require going after every other of its ilk for the same reason.

Dave.C.Robinson

04-22-2008, 11:52 PM

PA gets so much mileage out of "Author: the RPG" that I'm surprised they don't sell PA branded dice bags and battlemats. They could even put all the AWers in their monster source book.

cethklein

04-23-2008, 12:58 AM

PA gets so much mileage out of "Author: the RPG" that I'm surprised they don't sell PA branded dice bags and battlemats. They could even put all the AWers in their monster source book.

Ooooh I hope I have wings and scales and a Sword of Constipation +1. That'll show those PAladins who's boss.

JimmyD1318

04-23-2008, 02:33 AM

They could even put all the AWers in their monster source book.

What would be the Armour Class and Hit Points of a POPCORN MONSTER? And would me going to my secret stash give me a +2 on any saving throws?:D

Khazarkhum

04-23-2008, 02:49 AM

Ooooh I hope I have wings and scales and a Sword of Constipation +1. That'll show those PAladins who's boss.

No, no, no. Paladins are Lawful Good. Anti-Paladins are not.

You would be able to do severe damage with a +1 Greatsword of Editing, as editing is anathema to the Anti-PAladin.

Dave.C.Robinson

04-23-2008, 03:04 AM

What would be the Armour Class and Hit Points of a POPCORN MONSTER? And would me going to my secret stash give me a +2 on any saving throws?:D

Becoming the popcorn monster would give you lots of powers-- your AC would only be okay (it's easy to hit a big old popcorn monster) but you'd have lots of hitpoints and regeneration. Swords pass right through popcorn just knocking a few kernels out of the bag (and it's easy enough to pop more.)

Afinerosesheis

04-23-2008, 03:45 AM

JulieB

04-23-2008, 03:57 AM

Becoming the popcorn monster would give you lots of powers-- your AC would only be okay (it's easy to hit a big old popcorn monster) but you'd have lots of hitpoints and regeneration. Swords pass right through popcorn just knocking a few kernels out of the bag (and it's easy enough to pop more.)

And we all know his charisma points are off the top of the scale! ;-)

thecraftteens

04-23-2008, 04:09 AM

The authors are marketing their books in earnest before the 4/28 deadline. I have received several e-mails to buy fellow authors' books. Like I don't have my own to worry about, which BTW, I'm not pushing. Even with this "sale".

I've been meaning to ask you, Rose, why haven't you tried to break your contract with PA? Sorry, I'm still new here and don't know your story.

Jersey Chick

04-23-2008, 04:23 AM

ARGH!!! I didn't play D&D or any other RPG games (that's redundant, isn't it? Isn't the G for games?? Oh well :Shrug: )

Can someone catch me up on the terminolofy and cardage and all that fun stuff? I don't want to be left out of the loop. I might have to set someone else's hair on fire, in that case. ;)

JimmyD1318

04-23-2008, 04:33 AM

And we all know his charisma points are off the top of the scale! ;-)
Awww...thank you. A bag of POPCORN for you,:popcorn:, and a kiss with some flowers.:e2flowersYou made my day.

Queen of Swords

04-23-2008, 05:08 AM

The thread on the half-off offer is very interesting. Don Harpe asks,

I'd like to know if Rudy ever got a reply about whether or not the discount we get as authors will be on the original price or the new half price sale. If we can buy them for a discount based on the half price, then we might be able to resell them at a profit.

A profit to you or a profit to PA? I'm pretty sure only one discount will apply.

If we must continue paying on the original price, then we'll lose money on every book we sell.

I think Infocenter owes us an answer.

And I agree with David Rosenberg. More here than meets the eye.

D. K. Christi doesn't seem to like the implication that PA is being less than honest and open with them.

You mean to say that publishers do not necessarily tell all to authors? Geeeeeeee!

But the other posts are not all pro-PA, trust-thy-publisher. Another veteran responds,

I think there is more to this than meets the eye. For the sake of our books, of book publishing over all, of preserving artistic merit, we need to continue this open discussion. We need this to make sense.

Pier, I don't think amazon can disrupt PA's sales to us as individual authors

And that's what it's all about. Is PA targeting readers to let them know that books are cheaper? Is PA trying to market anything to bookstores? No, it's all about getting the authors to buy more of their own books.

Forget Amazon, if the world were ending tomorrow, PA would put out an End of the World sale. Books half-off, buy a box to sell in the afterlife!

but this whole situation, and PA's reducing of the book prices might have an effect.

As authors it is important to know the implications to us buying our own books. What we need in a situation such as this is a business minded response, not an emotional reaction.

PA, we can help with this.

Another author noted that PA's bookstore wasn't working. "Perhaps they're correcting the price list for all of the books. Perhaps it's something else. Who knows?" The questions seemed to bother one of the staunch loyalists, who responded,

I don't think it is wise to get in an uproar over this. I think also if you want answers you should email support group privately.

The usual answer from those who want to keep PA's flaws hidden. Don't say anything even remotely critical in public. Don't even ask questions. Just smile, and buy, and trust in PA.

Don as far as your question is concerned, the answer is the books are half priced until April 28th..Period...From there it is PAs problem..

PA's problem? How is it a problem? PA will simply put out another sale - Fourth of July sale, Thanksgiving sale, Christmas Day sale, Leap Year sale, Presidential Election sale, Halley's Comet's Return sale, whatever - and authors will buy their own books.

Just remember you are posting in a public messageboard. There are eyes in the jungle out there looking to see if we stumble...It's your publisher. So treat the question with common sense rather than argument...

I love the way he makes it sound as though the eyes in the jungle belong to PA! Don Harpe replies,

Why is this a bad question to ask on the public board? This is where infocenter started the thread.

What is the shipping cost on the books that are half price? Is it free, is it the same as it was, which was something like $3.50 on the first book and .50 on each additional book, or, it is $2 per book, as I have heard?

We are the authors, and without us, there would be no PA. I've been as vocal in my support as anyone else in the company, but I think it's only fair to ask the question about what price the discount is figured on right now, because we can't buy our books for more with our discount than PA is selling them to the public for, and hope to sell any copies at all.

A bit of straight shooting is called for here, and I for one will be waiting on the answer.

Can't help thinking that guy is heading for another session in Banland.

JimmyD1318

04-23-2008, 05:17 AM

I bet you that whole thread will be going *POOF!* soon, or moved into the private area. I wonder what all of the PA loyalist will be thinking then? Nevermind...they will explain that away also. But...it is good to see that so many eyes are opening over there at one time. I hope they continue to wake up.

Queen of Swords

04-23-2008, 05:24 AM

Wow, Don Harpe has just hit his stride.

By the way, maybe PA could also tell us what percentage of cost the original price is, and what percentage the sale price is. How much does it actually cost to print one copy of my 279 page book?

PA will never, never tell you that. Partly because it doesn't want to be responsible for the coronary when you realize what a markup was done on your books and how much money PA has made from you.

Marie Pacha

04-23-2008, 01:47 PM

One of the posters on PAMB has a problem ordering his books, "The PublishAmerica bookstore portion of the web site is not functioning. Perhaps they're correcting the price list for all of the books. Perhaps it's something else. Who knows? Usually when web site maintenance is done, visitors are told it's under construction."

That was at 6:37 p.m. It is now 4:46 a.m. and their online bookstore still has some issues. When one clicks on the link for "Author Ordering Information" you get:

"The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable."

Of course at my arbitration I asked their IT person if the website was ever down. He answered that it was rarely down, because he was available 24/7; even when on vacation. Of course someone would have to make him aware that it was down, and PA doesn't answer the phones at night or on weekends, with the exception of the answering machine.

Kind of hard for an author to take advantage of the discount if they can't order their books now isn't it?

Queen of Swords

04-23-2008, 01:53 PM

The plot thickens (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=30)

As far as shipping charges go I can tell you from my order of yesterday. I ordered 3 copies each of my two books and the shipping was $12--so $2 a book is the rate charged.

Some authors are talking about "stocking up" during the sale. Well, if anyone buys a case of fifty books, they'll pay a hundred dollars in shipping. PA profits, sale or no sale.

Another reason why PA's facade of selling books to the general public is a pretence :

I would like to know the time line for shipping to a person (not the author) who should order one book from PublishAmerica. Some who have ordered <title> have found it takes six weeks. That was one reason I had told people to order from Amazon or Barnes and Noble. They took three days.

Who's going to wait six weeks for a book that may or may not arrive?

Amazingly, infocenter hasn't deleted anything else. Yet.

triceretops

04-23-2008, 02:05 PM

I thought they had their own printing facility onboard so shipments could be sent straight out. If PA prints them, why couldn't they ship within a couple of days?

Tri

Christine N.

04-23-2008, 02:08 PM

Cause that would require someone to actually run out to the printer barn and do it. My guess is they wait for a bunch of orders and then do them all at once? Who knows what goes on over there, surely nothing that makes any sense.

Queen of Swords

04-23-2008, 02:08 PM

They may be shipping bulk orders to authors more quickly. PA seems to discourage single-book sales to readers; perhaps the long waiting time is one way to do so.

Afinerosesheis

04-23-2008, 03:49 PM

The plot thickens (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=30)

Some authors are talking about "stocking up" during the sale. Well, if anyone buys a case of fifty books, they'll pay a hundred dollars in shipping. PA profits, sale or no sale.

Another reason why PA's facade of selling books to the general public is a pretence :

Who's going to wait six weeks for a book that may or may not arrive?

Amazingly, infocenter hasn't deleted anything else. Yet.

The whole thing is unacceptable, shameful and upsetting. That is to say they are running this "amazing sale", then the website doesn't work to take advantage of it. Per said sale ends SOON. (hurry) The authors are not getting a reasonable discount based on the sale. Then they are paying two dollars per book to ship. And the wheels keep spinning at the PA, and the naivity flourishes at the PAMB.

cethklein

04-23-2008, 04:02 PM

No, no, no. Paladins are Lawful Good. Anti-Paladins are not.

You would be able to do severe damage with a +1 Greatsword of Editing, as editing is anathema to the Anti-PAladin.

Bah, I only dabbled in D&D a bit years ago so I forgot that paladins have to be good. Although you'd think I'd have known that anyway from reading Piers Anthony and Margaret Weis.

cethklein

04-23-2008, 07:02 PM

Back to quotes, this is a good one from Grandma in the "slashing prices" thread:

Let's see if we can put this in perspective a little.

Most book stores ask for 60% of the retail price. That's why our books are priced so high. With what's left, PA has to pay it's overhead (staff, rent, utilities, and printing).

It is much cheaper to print 50 books at a time than it is to print one. The bulk printing allows PA to offer the occasional discount. With this considered, cutting the price on one book is a much deeper cut than it looks like on the surface. At the same time, if people who can't afford 50 books buy 10, both the publisher and the author profits.

What PA is actually doing - is depriving the booksellers of their 60% of the sale.

I say, kick back and enjoy it while we can.

Actually Grandma, the better phrase would be "Bend over and take it while you can". We now also can see how these PA authors are justifying the high prices to themselves. Denial is a pitiful thing.

Also this fun topic:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26590

I think the topic reeks of smart-ass. But the people replying seem to take it deadly serious.

Congratulations. Got both of mine ($1 advances) framed and up on the wall in my office/den. Interesting conversation pieces for anyone seeing them for the first time. Keep writing and many sales.

And on the subject of advances:

I have signed my contract etc and have not revieced my advance, about how long does that take?
Debra

If you really need that dollar that bad, you're in trouble. Oh wait, you didn't know it will only be one dollar? Oh you're gonig to be in for a shocker.

And another for good measure:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26597

DaveKuzminski

04-23-2008, 07:11 PM

Someone should ask that grandma just how the other publishers manage to make a profit under the same circumstances.

stormie

04-23-2008, 07:26 PM

PVish

04-23-2008, 08:20 PM

The misinformation (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&start=285) continues:

Amazon will only allow you to send five books through their Advantage program. The Advantage program is a subscription based selling program. I think it costs around $30 a year to join up. So, basically, you have to send five books plus $30 a year.
You can also sell "used" of secondary books through their seller's program which shows the book "out of stock" but available through the secondary sellers like it is now. You have two options, the Advantage program or Secondary seller program. I don't think the offer stands for PA, though, since they are the publisher. I only know about the programs because I contacted Amazon myself. They told me I couldn't send them five books without paying the fee.

The POD company I use for some niche market (http://www.amazon.com/Peevish-Advice-Becky-Mushko/dp/0741407299/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208965953&sr=1-1) stuff I've done sends the five books to Amazon. When Amazon runs out, Infinity prints and sends more. Infinity prints in house (Doesn't PA now do that?)

An Infinity representative was at 2008 Virginia Festival of the Book a day or so after Amazon's announcement and assured its authors that Infinity books wouldn't be affected. Infinity also displayed its Virginia authors' books (which we were given at the end of the day, so I came home with five books) and bought our lunch.
But then I paid to be published. . . .

What I don't understand is why a vanity POD can have this arrangement with Amazon (and has been doing this for years) and PA refuses. (Oh, PA would have to pay an employee to run the printer, wouldn't they?)

allenparker

04-23-2008, 09:00 PM

The misinformation (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&start=285) continues:

What I don't understand is why a vanity POD can have this arrangement with Amazon (and has been doing this for years) and PA refuses. (Oh, PA would have to pay an employee to run the printer, wouldn't they?)

It's the five books times 30,000 authors. Figuring the cost of printing a book at three dollars, the cost to print and ship would be over 90,000 dollars. Now, most of these probably will not sell. It will be lost revenue they keep on the books forever. And, if they send the books to Amazon, they will have to pay royalties to the authors.

It's a money thing.

tlblack

04-23-2008, 10:53 PM

They talk about their one dollar advance. Just curious: is it a dollar bill sent in the mail or a check in the amount of one dollar? And yeah, it does seem that the person (James) is being facetious, but no one is getting it.

You will get a nice crisp $1 bill taped to a congratulations you are now a PA author sheet of paper. One that can be easily framed and hung on your wall.

stormie

04-23-2008, 11:21 PM

You mean they don't even supply the frame?! Sheesh. :Shrug:

tlblack

04-24-2008, 01:39 AM

You mean they don't even supply the frame?! Sheesh. :Shrug:

Nope, and even if you buy the frame at the dollar store, your dollar just cost you $1.09 to frame. (9% sales tax here)

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 01:42 AM

I don't know - one of the newbies there posted he couldn't find a frame. Did they send him a non-standard size bill? Are they now printing their own monopoly money??? ;)

Dave.C.Robinson

04-24-2008, 02:05 AM

Maybe it's Confederate?

stormie

04-24-2008, 02:47 AM

Okay, guys, you got me laughing. Too funny!
(Then again, kind of sad....)

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 02:50 AM

It would kinda explain what they're using that printing press for, no? :D

kullervo

04-24-2008, 02:53 AM

Anybody have two PA "advances"? Are the serial numbers the same?

Mel

04-24-2008, 03:23 AM

I received the email about the great discount but when I opened it all I got was only garbled mess. I couldn't read a thing. Did this happen to anyone else. I always get my PA emails so I don't know what happened this time.

You can be sure it's not PA's fault.

From another
I have about 75 books on hand. If the price stays the same, I will sell at a loss.

And that's sad.

A lot of mixed feelings over there.

stormie

04-24-2008, 03:28 AM

I wonder if there will be some kind of insurrection over at PAMB and the Enforcers won't be able to stop it.

Mel

04-24-2008, 03:29 AM

Editing options (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26612)
I just received the email asking for editing options. Of course I chose option 2 and at the same time asked what happened to option 3.

Yes, I choked on that link title.

So, what's going on with this? Some get option 3 included, some don't. Has it been discontinued or is it pulled out of a hat for the lucky few?

stormie

04-24-2008, 03:32 AM

Maybe option 3 (which, I think, is more expensive) is only offered to those who they know will willingly, without question, fork over the money.

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 03:46 AM

I wonder whose face appears on that $1?

James D. Macdonald

04-24-2008, 03:49 AM

Remind me: What's Option 1, Option 2, and Option 3?

Mel

04-24-2008, 03:50 AM

Maybe option 3 (which, I think, is more expensive) is only offered to those who they know will willingly, without question, fork over the money.

When did they start charging for those options? Before it was the length of time, depending one which one they chose. Hadn't heard of them paying for them, not that PA wouldn't do that.

stormie

04-24-2008, 03:54 AM

I dunno. Seriously. I just thought I read that on the PAMB at one time. Option 1, no editing. Option 2, some editing. Option 3, more editing. And you had to pay for Option 2 and more for Option 3. I'm probably wrong here.

ETA: Anyone here formerly with PA want to chime in and straighten this out?

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 04:03 AM

But wait... I thought they didn't pay to be published...

oh, right - they didn't. If it's true that PA charged for Options 2 and/or 3, they paid to be edited. And, in some cases, to have more errors introduced...

DaveKuzminski

04-24-2008, 04:06 AM

Is there a contract for either of the two paid editing options? If so, can anyone forward a copy to me?

stormie

04-24-2008, 04:07 AM

Yes, I read that the more editing PA did, the more errors there were. One of the PA authors who really seemed to know her grammar and spelling, lamented about this. As for paying for the "editing".... (I don't remember where I read that, or if I'm correct on it.)

Mel

04-24-2008, 04:22 AM

You may have seen it over there, but those who talk about it mean paying someone outside PA to edit it for them. That's the only time I've seen it mentioned.

Khazarkhum

04-24-2008, 04:28 AM

Is there a contract for either of the two paid editing options? If so, can anyone forward a copy to me?

I was going to ask the Stupid Question and see if anyone at PAMB knows you don't pay Random House or Penguin for editing your book, but then remembered that they don't pay to be published so it's all good.
:e2writer:

Christine N.

04-24-2008, 04:29 AM

It's certainly more expensive for PA to offer the second and third options - more manhours, more editors working on fewer manuscripts, less productivity in a day for less return on the 'investment'.

Welcome to McPublishing, can I take your order?

Khazarkhum

04-24-2008, 04:33 AM

Just when you think you've seen every Green Reason out there:

I have posted this information on my websites and other sites I visit. Since it is Earth Day tomorrow, I mentioned the fact that our books are Earth friendly. They save trees and paper by only printing as many books as are needed.

Other publisher shred unsold books. What a waste!

No, they simply try not to publish trash in the first place.

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 04:36 AM

What do publishers do with returned books? Are they recycled? (I'm thinking probably, but I don't know for sure)

IceCreamEmpress

04-24-2008, 05:12 AM

What do publishers do with returned books?

They go into the bargain book industry. (http://www.cirobe.com/html/bargain/bargain.html)

Publishers are like those probably-apocryphal Native American cultures that used every part of the buffalo down to its hooves.

Queen of Swords

04-24-2008, 06:34 AM

More questions about editing (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26533&start=15)

This is from the thread about editing options. A new author asks,

This discussions makes me nervous... I'm not a good editor and was relying on PA doing the editing feedback for me. For those of us who haven't gotten as far in the process yet could someone explain what option 1 and option 2 is that is now being offered? Does either option mean that PA does not do full editing and that notice will be placed in the front of the book??? http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 06:38 AM

Could you imagine Avon or Tor authors having this same discussion??

Queen of Swords

04-24-2008, 06:45 AM

Could you imagine Avon or Tor authors having this same discussion??

Sometimes I wonder how many PA authors have that discussion while believing that they're at the same point in their careers as Avon or Tor authors.

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 06:54 AM

That's kind of sad - pathetic and sad.

ResearchGuy

04-24-2008, 08:33 AM

Just when you think you've seen every Green Reason out there:
. . .
No, they simply try not to publish trash in the first place.
Lots of perfectly good books go unsold. Some are the remainders of first (and last) printing, and some are what is left of a second, third, fourth, or whatever printing. Bestsellers with enormous printings end up with remainders -- maybe a lot of them. If they print 200,000 copies and sell, say, 175,000, that still leaves a lot of books to the remainder dealers. (Or maybe half of a second or third printing sells and then the book goes out of print, with the returns remaindered or maybe pulped.) And a run-of-the-mill commercially published book with a first and only printing of, say, a typical 4,000 or so might sell half or two-thirds of those, with the rest remaindered.

--Ken

kullervo

04-24-2008, 08:56 AM

Could you imagine Avon or Tor authors having this same discussion??

I'm trying to imagine any writer submitting a book that they did not believe to be perfect. Even if they're all wrong, any writer surely should feel that they have fixed every single problem before sending their manuscript out into the world. Yikes.

My copyeditor found one misspelling ("cryotome") and added two ("Equador" and my first name).

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 05:26 PM

I don't know that that's the case there - you see a lot of how clean they believe their manuscripts to be.

I always think it's perfect - until it's gone out the door. Then I wonder about this and about that and "How could I put that in the story??? It's so stupid... yadda yadda yadda..."

JulieB

04-24-2008, 06:02 PM

I agree that we all want the manuscript to be as polished as possible before we send it out. Your editor isn't as "close" to the manuscript as you are, and is likely to find areas for improvement. They may be minor, but at least you know that your manuscript has been given proper care and attention.

Yes, I've gone round and round with copy editors. Sometimes they're right, sometimes I'm right. And, infuriatingly, copy errors will sometimes make it into print. Yet, that's a different beast than the story edit.

One comment on a recent story was along the lines of, "I understand what you're talking about here, but some of your readers probably won't. It would be a good idea to explain further." I agreed completely. It was one of those cases of being too "close" to the story on my part. That's what good editing is about, and I don't know of a single writer who hasn't benefited from the process.

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 06:17 PM

Or, you do as I did and change something early in the story - but forget to change the result of your change later on. Or you cut a scene - and that same scene is mentioned later. I'm good at that. :D

stormie

04-24-2008, 06:21 PM

I agree that we all want the manuscript to be as polished as possible before we send it out.
Yes. But I've read posts on different writer's boards where you get a person who feels that's the editor's job. That it doesn't matter if there are grammatical or spelling errors; they'll fix it for the writer. And I cringe.

TwentyFour

04-24-2008, 06:34 PM

I believe the "Dollar" stores receives their books from these bargain bins. I have bought some great books from many large publishers at $1.00 a paperback and $2.00-4.00 a hardcover.

JulieB

04-24-2008, 06:49 PM

Yes. But I've read posts on different writer's boards where you get a person who feels that's the editor's job. That it doesn't matter if there are grammatical or spelling errors; they'll fix it for the writer. And I cringe.

That makes me cringe as well.

And I'll bet those people also find it more difficult to get published.

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 06:56 PM

Neither extreme works - at least in the real world of publishing. I don't expect my editor to have to correct stupid mistakes and I don't think not a word of my "baby" should be changed.

Once upon a time, when I first started out, yes - I though every word was golden - and I have the rejection letters to prove it wasn't even close ;)

Jersey Chick

04-24-2008, 06:59 PM

I wonder if anyone will tell this guy the truth??

How do I go about getting reviews from well known reviewers, e.g. in Publisher's Weekly. What's the risk of just sending a book - other than that it is expensive?

I am also having difficulty getting local papers to respond to the announcements and follow-up queries. I have had one interview by a signifant writer - how can I maximize that?

I have received a couple of reviews from significant readers/writers, but they are virtually unknown outside of their particular areas.

Any advice is welcome.

TwentyFour

04-24-2008, 07:00 PM

I remember feeling so sad when other authors told me certain parts of my novel didn't work and needed changed. I thought "I'm not cut out to do this, I can't even get the words right...I should quit." I turned around after I noticed some problems I had reading parts of it, now I'm up to suggestions.

thecraftteens

04-24-2008, 07:41 PM

When I got my editing options email, there was only option 1 and 2, not a 3. Option 1 said that I could rush it to print and that I felt confident about the content and writing. Option 2 said that I felt the manuscript needed a little more editing and that they would return it to me for another revision.

They mentioned nothing of in-house editing, not that they needed to with the shady con-tract.

Marie Pacha

04-24-2008, 09:26 PM

From the PAMB:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=45

"I have my own thoughts about all of this. I cannot share them on a public forum.

There's no response from PA about any of our concerns.

Did anyone notice that there were multiple sales promotions in the past few months? "

kullervo

04-24-2008, 09:32 PM

I like the follow-up comment:

With such remarks you are lucky you are still allowed on this board! Personally I never forget who gave me my first break, when others would'nt even look at my M/S!!!

IceCreamEmpress

04-24-2008, 09:39 PM

I like the follow-up comment

I knew who had written that comment before I read the thread. Oh, dear.

JimmyD1318

04-24-2008, 09:41 PM

With such remarks you are lucky you are still allowed on this board! Personally I never forget who gave me my first break, when others would'nt even look at my M/S!!!

Watch out! That thread will be going *POOF!* soon. Just a little feeling I am having. I may be wrong though.

cethklein

04-24-2008, 09:58 PM

I knew who had written that comment before I read the thread. Oh, dear.

I figured it would be DK Cristie. Pierrette was my third guess though. Any wagers on how long she is proven right and he is "removed" from PAMB? I say it will happen by 5:00 PM on Friday. Any takers?

Christine N.

04-24-2008, 11:15 PM

But Infomonster calls him out - where they will publicly berate and belittle him, back it up with incorrect of half-correct information about real publishing...and THEN his password will cease to work.

And there will be much rejoicing from the PA faithful. You know how a public flogging always makes them cheer.

Gravity

04-24-2008, 11:45 PM

I knew who had written that comment before I read the thread. Oh, dear.

Yeah, I knew it was Frenchie just from the wording. That woman is a trip.

stormie

04-24-2008, 11:51 PM

I'd swear she's paid to say those things, yet I know PA is too stingy to do so.

Sparhawk

04-25-2008, 12:03 AM

After a whopping FIVE PA books, me thinks this one PAvidian begins to see the light. I'd love to know how much in royalties this guy has pulled down. I dare say not nearly what the author of a single pubished book with a legitimate publisher would earn.

When the bloom falls off the koolaide it will truly be sad for the gentleman.

Sparhawk

04-25-2008, 12:06 AM

I'd swear she's paid to say those things, yet I know PA is too stingy to do so.

I think the PA message board is Frenchie's only social outlet. She's the veritable PAvidian Pit Poodle of Publish America (say that five times fast)barking and nipping at the heels of those who begin to see the light.

TwentyFour

04-25-2008, 12:06 AM

Infocenter responds to his remark:

how about airing them here?
As for the sales promotions, how could anyone not have noticed them? Notices were mailed to all 30,000 authors each time.

Dear Info Center,

I respectfully decline.

I'm not a PA basher. Keep that in mind.

TwentyFour

04-25-2008, 12:08 AM

I'd swear she's paid to say those things, yet I know PA is too stingy to do so.
I've read it somewhere that she is. I can't recall where but it was from some PA authors and they apparently said she knew they were banned before they were. Sound familiar? HB anyone?

Sparhawk

04-25-2008, 12:21 AM

I've read it somewhere that she is. I can't recall where but it was from some PA authors and they apparently said she knew they were banned before they were. Sound familiar? HB anyone?

She could be the new SHEMP!! She has over 16,000 posts on the PAMB WOW !!! It really IS her social life. I thought they paid HB in books and comped his hotel room at PAvidian gatherings in lieu of cash. I'd have to go back and reread the old threads to be sure though.

Queen of Swords

04-25-2008, 01:06 AM

Wow, that thread is really revealing. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60&sid=b9f31ca1b043f9ae7a9f19bab0e4932a)

PA has sometimes missed sending me notices. I come here frequently and friends will send me theirs, so I get the information, but I never did get the message from PA about the prices cut in half.

And one thing I would really like sometime is to have a good discussion, to share feelings in a respectable way regarding publishing and marketing strategies for our books, without messages being deleted.

But the other issue is that there are also those who are bashers, and many of us have felt their wrath when voicing honest opinions.

Seems like there are the regular bashers (i.e. us) and the PA-supportive bashers (people who come down on anyone who dares criticize PA). I'm guessing the last paragraph refers to the latter type.

My author friends and I discuss issues regarding PA via email, but I often wish there was a forum to do so in an honest open way. I think we all could benefit, but it does not seem possible.

There's another pro-PA board, though she did mention "honest" and "open". Two other veterans posted to say that they also didn't receive the emails about the half-off sale. Infocenter replied, asking them to send their new email addresses to PA.

Remember, folks : It is never PA's fault. Repeat a thousand times until you believe it.

triceretops

04-25-2008, 03:11 AM

With such remarks you are lucky you are still allowed on this board! Personally I never forget who gave me my first break, when others would'nt even look at my M/S!!!

I'm sorry, Frenchie. But the only break you got was the price break when you bought your first truck-load of books.

Tri

stormie

04-25-2008, 03:17 AM

I remember when that guy--(can't remember his name, Joe ?)--started a new message board for PA members and others to post, openly and without being deleted. Of course, when a few of us nicely tried to steer people toward here for accurate info, we got our passwords and user IDs temporarily taken away. He reinstated us when he realized we weren't bashing PA, just trying to help people become aware of the right way to get published, like writing well and querying commercial/trade publishers.

stormie

04-25-2008, 03:23 AM

Whoa...here's a good one from here (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=60):
So why can't PA be a secondary seller and sell at whatever price they want just as the other secondary seller do? Then they get the orders from amazon, amazon gets a cut, and PA ships the books to the buyer.

and the response: I would not touch your questions with a ten foot pole.

Queen of Swords

04-25-2008, 03:33 AM

The only ten-foot pole is the one sprouting from PA's nose.

cethklein

04-25-2008, 04:14 AM

thecraftteens

04-25-2008, 04:23 AM

You know what would be interesting? Since there was little interest in submitting a sequel to Atlanta Nights, wouldn't it be funny if we compiled a few hundred pages from this topic and submitted it as a "self help book"?

I don't think it would work, but it'd be fun nonetheless. PA would probably see their name and immediately reject it.

cethklein

04-25-2008, 04:25 AM

Oh no, we give it a different title, like "The Truth Is Out There: Stories From The Other Side."

Jersey Chick

04-25-2008, 04:26 AM

kullervo

04-25-2008, 07:25 AM

Sigh.

It may only be a dollar, but James Cameron sold the rights to The Terminator to the studio for a buck just to insure he would be the one to direct it. Just like what we're doing with PA.

burgy61

04-25-2008, 07:48 AM

I wonder if the emails only go to a list of those repeat customers? You know - so-and-so bought x amount - bet they'll go for this and the ones who don't buy their books (or buy enough) just never get the notice???

I must be one of the unlucky ones, cause I'm still getting emails trying to sell me my book. :Shrug:

TwentyFour

04-25-2008, 08:25 AM

DeadlyAccurate

04-25-2008, 08:26 AM

Yep that's why they didn't get it - those pesky ever-evolving email addresses (so says one whose email address has changed about six times in four years ay yi yi).

I wonder if the emails only go to a list of those repeat customers? You know - so-and-so bought x amount - bet they'll go for this and the ones who don't buy their books (or buy enough) just never get the notice???

In reality, it's probably nothing more sinister than someone not keeping the database updated. With their high turnover rate and poor morale, there's no incentive to do a good job.

TwentyFour

04-25-2008, 08:55 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

I opened them I was not surprised to see one from a jilted suitor... but the other one was a real surprise for It was from a so called good "friend" here at P.A.that had wowed her eternal friendship to me

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=290870&highlight=#290870

I received an email from Amazon, (since I had bought two of my own used books,) stating why and how they sell 2nd hand books now. One returnee--was from an old p---d off beau of mine, and the other from a "very good " friend here on the board! Since I had offered those books free in the first place, in the end ...they turned out to be expensive for me!

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=290331&highlight=#290331

Second there is all kind of weird things happening, like my being able to buy two of my books cheaply, that were returned, one I had offered free to a "best friend"..here on the board.

How many times does it take to get the point across that she's peed off at these two people? No wonder the guy doesn't want her book, imagine dating a woman who pecks at you repeatedly over something like this? I bet he dumped her.

scully931

04-25-2008, 09:01 AM

It may only be a dollar, but James Cameron sold the rights to The Terminator to the studio for a buck just to insure he would be the one to direct it. Just like what we're doing with PA.

And I'm sure the studio hounded him relentlessly to buy copies of the DVD.

kullervo

04-25-2008, 09:51 AM

And I'm sure the studio hounded him relentlessly to buy copies of the DVD.

:roll:

cethklein

04-25-2008, 03:09 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=290870&highlight=#290870

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=290331&highlight=#290331

How many times does it take to get the point across that she's peed off at these two people? No wonder the guy doesn't want her book, imagine dating a woman who pecks at you repeatedly over something like this? I bet he dumped her.

I noticed that too. Frenchie wasn't kidding when she said she was "well traveled".

TwentyFour

04-25-2008, 07:58 PM

She repeatedly mentions how many books she buys, I guess that is how her book stays in the top sellers of PA.

Afinerosesheis

04-25-2008, 08:53 PM

I also noticed she has mentioned her "jilted beau" several times. Must be a real sore spot with her. ahemm...

I also noticed Harpe had a thread locked and his profile picture has disappeared which usually means a zapping. Serves him right for the way he has treated many of his fellow authors for speaking against PA practices. (MHO)

Gravity

04-25-2008, 09:27 PM

Is Harpe the Hawaiian shirt guy? He's not the same as the Pipe, is he? I can't seem to keep straight who's who over there...

kullervo

04-25-2008, 10:31 PM

From the New Author section. I think this should be a greeting card:

Congratulations on whatever it is you wrote

cethklein

04-25-2008, 10:35 PM

Even better one from that topic:

Welcome Nanceee. If you are an author new to Publish America and have missed my earlier posted messages, read and do the following. Set up your own web site to advertise your book. Potential buyers will go to your site to read the synopsis you should post in the site. Move your cursor to my web site below listed with “freewebs.com” and strike your enter key. After browsing through my web site, exit it and you will end up right back here in this author’s lounge. While in my web site, think about ideas to use in your own web site. Some writers add a guestbook for visitors to provide the authors with feedback about their web site and/or book(s). Check many of the authors’ web sites usually published in these posted messages. Also read suggestions to new authors posted by others associated with the Publish America forums. To give you some idea of how much success you are having with your web site, do a Yahoo Search once your web site is established; to see how that works, go to your Yahoo Search Bar and type in all caps the following: GLENN ROSS JOHNSON. You will find multiple listings about my books, activities, and website. If you have software such as Corel’s Print House, you could make bookmarkers to distribute to friends and bookstores. Good luck and great success in writing.
Glenn Ross Johnson

Ok, I've got a feeling if this person made it as far as that topic, they don't need someone to explain to them how to click on a link.

kittenpoet

04-25-2008, 10:48 PM

I have looked around the PAMB. Seems like it's all a happy world there. No negative posts that I can find.

James D. Macdonald

04-25-2008, 10:50 PM

Potential buyers will go to your site to read the synopsis you should post in the site.

100% of the people who go to your site to read the synopsis will be people you already know by name.

kullervo

04-25-2008, 11:00 PM

I have looked around the PAMB. Seems like it's all a happy world there. No negative posts that I can find.

You've got to move fast before Infocensor blasts any negative comments out of existence. After that happens, they live only here.

kittenpoet

04-25-2008, 11:25 PM

Queen of Swords

04-25-2008, 11:31 PM

A PA author started a thread asking people to read the first chapter of her book and give her feedback. I took a look. The story started with a dream (no-no for most agents and editors) and the first sentence contained a comma splice. There were numerous other technical and stylistic issues.

The comments on the PAMB? All positive except for pointing out that the one sentence was repeated. The author knows PA is not a good choice for a writer, so I hope she's going to put in the work it takes to snag a good agent or publisher. But if she's relying on yes-men who assure her she's doing fine, that might never happen.

Afinerosesheis

04-25-2008, 11:46 PM

Is Harpe the Hawaiian shirt guy? He's not the same as the Pipe, is he? I can't seem to keep straight who's who over there...

You got it right. Harpe is the Hawaiian shirt guy, and Dick S. is the one with the pipe.

Afinerosesheis

04-25-2008, 11:47 PM

Even better one from that topic:

Ok, I've got a feeling if this person made it as far as that topic, they don't need someone to explain to them how to click on a link.

This one posts the same tiresome message many, many times.

kittenpoet

04-25-2008, 11:58 PM

How sad that I missed that chapter she posted. Or is it still posted?

Christine N.

04-26-2008, 12:01 AM

I never thought freewebs sites are a guarantee for success. I mean, who else than your friends and family (and the PA peers) will notice it?

It's not like the freewebs sites just pop up at all potential readers without them even looking for your book.

Poor poor PA authors...

And the really sad part is that it's SO cheap to purchase a domain name through freewebs and ditch the freewebs.com address. I track what searches people find my site through and where they come from, and having your own domain is a really inexpensive way to get your site found. My site stats tell me the referrer and Google search that person used to get to my site.

I come up in on the first of second pages of Google searches on YA author, author visits, school visits, children's fantasy books, and even a search of Chapter one of Freckle Juice (That one I found by accident; I wondered how the heck the person got MY site with that search term, but since I have the word "juice" or something in one of my book excerpts, it came up. Weird but true.) And for some reason lots of people search "christine young", but they get me "christine" the "young" adult author.

I pay less than $20 per year to Freewebs for the domain name, and get to keep the FW WYSIWYG editor, so I can still maintain it myself.

TwentyFour

04-26-2008, 12:16 AM

Writing mysteries is one of the most, perhaps the very most, demanding and competitive fields in the business. It is not one an amateur can toy with and hope for even a modicum of success. Before calling yourself a mystery writer make certain you know everything you can about the genre. Some who have posted here cannot make that claim so it’s time for them to start learning.

Well 'friend', looks like someone should lay off the coffee or something. Gee, calm down a little, Okay?

One you post you stated: "Does everyone here know the basics of mystery writing? Are they familiar with the rules? Do they observe the most important one of all, play fair with the reader?"
I didn't know you were PA resident authority on all wrting genre, but hey, thanks for the lecture.

Anyway, If you are speaking about my books, let me restate that they are not mysteries, more like action adventures , the publisher is the one that wants to lump them into the mystery genre. So, lighten up, huh? http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26609

Hahaha...You have to laugh since the first post he's made in ages comes across as a scream fest on the new guy.

TwentyFour

04-26-2008, 12:17 AM

cethklein

04-26-2008, 12:35 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26609

Hahaha...You have to laugh since the first post he's made in ages comes across as a scream fest on the new guy.

Ooooh a PAMB cat-fight. This is why I lvoe PAMB. Never dissapoints.

Also, this Dick S guy seems like he lives up to his name quite well. It's funny as there's another topic full of people begging for him to come back. Maybe they're gluttons for punishment. After all they ARE PA authors.

UPDATE: I think our boy Dick should take the old saying "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" to heart:

Thanks for all the kind words. I'll do a little posting now that I'm feeling some better.

After that, I don't think he's the right person to be lecturing others about the art of writing.

kullervo

04-26-2008, 12:42 AM

A PA author speaking authoritatively about what is "demanding and competitive" in the writing world? Seems to me he's handily dodged that bullet by being printed by PA.

IceCreamEmpress

04-26-2008, 12:45 AM

A PA author speaking authoritatively about what is "demanding and competitive" in the writing world? Seems to me he's handily dodged that bullet by being printed by PA.

I think this is the gentleman who's had several short stories published in each of the US's leading monthly mystery magazines. So he does actually have some cred regarding that.

kullervo

04-26-2008, 12:54 AM

I think this is the gentleman who's had several short stories published in each of the US's leading monthly mystery magazines. So he does actually have some cred regarding that.

Ah, so he just enjoys beating on his fellow writers. Groovy.

Queen of Swords

04-26-2008, 12:57 AM

WTF? (http://www.freewebs.com/bobbuckholz/articles.htm)

This is from a PA author's webpage. I saw there was an article about him, and browsed it. There was a genuinely sweet moment at the start, where he describes putting a copy of his book into his dying father's hands, and then I came across this.

Then he discovered the biggest challenge was not getting the novel written but getting it published. <Author> said Random House Publishing wanted $1,500 just to read it.

:eek:

Only in PA-land.

cethklein

04-26-2008, 01:00 AM

Oh Dick, you sly devil you:

I'm no authority on all genres but I've been writing and selling mysteries to major markets since 1979 and am a member of Mystery Writers of America and Private Eyes Writers of America. I do keep up to date on things in the field. I don't like to see people going down the wrong path. Sorry if it bugs you but political correctness never helps anyone.

I have been asked in the past if a PA book (or any POD book) qualifies someone for membership in either of the above organizations. It does not. To be eligible for active membership a writer must be published by one or more of approximately 100 trade publishers or either Ellery Queen or Alfred Hitchcock mystery magazines. Those magazines each receive about 5,000 submissions a year and buy 150 or so.
However, associate (affiliate) memberships are open to anyone. It's a good starting point. It also enables a person to attend meetings, seminars, etc. and by associating with them it is quickly seen that professional mystery writers are the most helpful people in the world to beginners. While they are in competition with each other for sales, the vast majority are always ready to lend a helping hand.

So he's essentially telling these PA authors "Hey, PA isn't even recognized by the two major mystery writing groups. A sane person would take this to heart.

cethklein

04-26-2008, 01:03 AM

WTF? (http://www.freewebs.com/bobbuckholz/articles.htm)

This is from a PA author's webpage. I saw there was an article about him, and browsed it. There was a genuinely sweet moment at the start, where he describes putting a copy of his book into his dying father's hands, and then I came across this.

:eek:

Only in PA-land.

Random House themselves don't even take unsolicited, un-agented submissions period do they? This is obviously something someone at PA told this guy to scare him into using them.

JulieB

04-26-2008, 01:04 AM

To be fair, he did moderate his tone in his next post, and mentioned the affiliate level of MWA and how beneficial it is to writers. He also mentioned that a PA book is not considered a publication as far as the MWA is concerned.

(Quoted on the previous page while I was composing this post.)

How long will it be before someone whines that they're not eligible even though they've written multiple books?

stormie

04-26-2008, 01:17 AM

How long will it be before someone whines that they're not eligible even though they've written multiple books?
And they're an Author!
Really, all they have to do is go to the MWA website or SCBWI and read the requirements.

Christine N.

04-26-2008, 02:03 AM

I have to say that Dick does have some expertise in the genre, and with writing. I'll give him that. Those PA people should listen to him for things like that.

He doesn't always get it right when it comes to publishing, however, and still stands by his axiom that PA is just like 'all the others' and that other publishers can't do any better than PA (I tried to tell him, but yanno, old dogs and new tricks and all that). He never claimed to think PA was 'the next Random House' or whatever. I believe he just felt at his age he wanted to skip to the end. He went in with eyes fairly open, I think, much like our friend Mr. Rogers.

I don't always agree with him, especially about what he states about book publishing, but I respect that he's put in his time in other areas of writing.

The guy who thanks PA for "letting writers write what they want even though they don't fit into any standard genre" or whatever it was, is living in a fantasy world. PA doesn't even read the manuscripts, and they'll print practically anything you send in, good, bad, or ugly, so it's not about letting writers do anything but order books.

Sparhawk

04-26-2008, 02:48 AM

Looks as if the other PAvidian newbies are piling up against "Pipe smoker". That was a pretty harsh and condescending post. The content, though probably deadly accurate, could have been presented with a tad more tact.

stormie

04-26-2008, 02:49 AM

Hey, they were super-exicited to see my manuscript You Are 2 Much!! (Or was that U R 2 Much!!) ?

It's still hard for me to fathom how someone like Dick could be such a proponent for PA. He's been pubbed by magazines with large circulations. Is he paid by PA, as stingy as they are? And his tone with that one guy who posted about his mystery/thriller/whatever was over-the-top. Maybe he's truly ill and getting grumpy.

IceCreamEmpress

04-26-2008, 02:58 AM

It's still hard for me to fathom how someone like Dick could be such a proponent for PA. He's been pubbed by magazines with large circulations.

My guess is that because he's a retired journalist with professional short-story sales, PA probably works okay for him because he doesn't need proofreading or copyediting.

And he is older than most of the people who find it easy to use the Lulu author interface. So it may actually not be a horrible choice for him. Overpriced and poor quality, yes, but still what he's looking for is a publishing service, not a publisher.

Also, that thing on the PA author's website about "Random House wanted $1500 to read a manuscript"? That's actually trade libel. Not something I would mess around with--they got LAWYERS with a capital L.

Queen of Swords

04-26-2008, 03:51 AM

Pipesmoker strikes back (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26609&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15)

Reality check time. How many books published by various POD firms could make it with a mainstream trade publisher? The market is snowed under with such books and many do not meet even the lowest standards. You know it, I know it. Prior to the Internet and computers, they wouldn't have gotten past a first reader at any trade publisher. Perhaps your own books are a step above that.

As for snobbish organizations, I have read far more remarks in that vein right here than I ever heard at any MWA or PWA function. There is a tremendous difference between being snobbish and being discriminating.

He goes on to say that he's trying to help writers who are aiming for "greater things". Greater than what, he doesn't specify. One of the newer writers responds,

Here's a reality check...deliver your message of sage advice and I'll accept your word that you are actually trying to help people here. Just do it without belittling and berating other people.

Here's a royalty check... don't expect the big fish in the PAMB to be too kind to the little ones.

kullervo

04-26-2008, 04:00 AM

Response to a question of when the advance might arrive:

PA SENDS YOU A ONE DOLLOR BILL
AND IT DOSE NOT TAKE LONG TO ARRIVE
MOST FOLKS FRAME IT

Queen of Swords

04-26-2008, 04:03 AM

Wow, PA haiku.

Jersey Chick

04-26-2008, 05:30 AM

Pipesmoker's got writing creds - but knows almost nothing about how publishing works - which leads to a big case of little knowledge = dangerous thing.

I wonder if he is still feeling lousy and grumpier than usual. The newbies better watch out - otherwise they'll find themselves at the bottom of the dogpile.

TwentyFour

04-26-2008, 08:16 AM

As I stated before, I have taken up for Stodge here and Mr. Lane he will turn on you faster than a stingray on a crocodile hunter. You go over there and tell him you think PA should do this or that and see how fast he rips you a new one. Some of us have been on other boards with him and he lost his "grace" when he left not one of us alone for choosing to find a better publisher than his. You can come here and belittle us, show us you have little respect for us, but remember we have rules here and if you keep acting this way it will get you banned.

Funny thing is, he tells them PA isn't a credit to his organizations yet he will never admit other publishers are better than PA. He says never aim higher.

Jersey Chick

04-26-2008, 09:39 AM

This post is not directed solely at Jersey Chick, but at each of you involved in the Stodghill diatribe.
Then why quote me? Or, sort of quote my post?

I fail to see how saying someone is giving bad advice is attacking that someone. Isn't it more indecent to just sit back and know he's giving bad advice (or misinformation) and not say something? Give me a break, really. No one has said he doesn't know squat about writing. Not once. But his area of expertise is not in book publishing. And some of what he says is wrong, whether you want to hear it or not.

Dick Stodghill is a superb writer and a solid professional. He became an established writer before most of you were born, can write circles around the writing-challenged folks on this board, and has more publishing credits than most of you combined. Again - he might have more pub credits - but in a different arena. And I never said he couldn't write. I know he's made a living at it for a long time - only his experience is in newspapers and magazines, which differs from books. And really, no need to be so neener neener neener - what is that all about? Seems a little schoolyard to me.

AW's credibility diminishes as its petty, self-serving meanness increases. Haven't you folks better ways to entertain yourselves? The smugness expressed here is numbing.
And yet, you still come and post here despite how petty and mean you find this forum. Interesting. Wow - petty and self-serving meanness for saying someone might be giving out info that isn't entirely correct. Interesting correlation there.

Find a target appropriate to your level of professionalism and leave serious writers alone.
Wow - I'm not even sure how to answer this - who are you to judge who is a serious writer and who isn't? Professional? Again, who are you to judge? Yeesh. Talk about unprofessional - you might want to take a look before pointing fingers.

Is there no decency among you at all? Again - you're kidding, right?

Queen of Swords

04-26-2008, 01:37 PM

Dick Stodghill is a superb writer and a solid professional. He became an established writer before most of you were born, can write circles around the writing-challenged folks on this board, and has more publishing credits than most of you combined.

He can walk on water as far as I'm concerned. That doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about when it comes to agents, or how to get published outside of PA.

If you really want to discuss this, Lane, I can produce quotes where Mr Stodghill gave other writers misinformation about the industry. But you seem more interested in popping in to bash AW members and then running off again. In other words, you don't seem too concerned about the facts.

Jersey had the best response to your own diatribe, so I'll just say that she's right - obviously our numbing smugness has smugly numbed you to the point where you continue to post here despite the criticism of PA and of the misguided, inaccurate claims of its loyalists. One of whom is Stodghill.

Is there no decency among you at all?

Won't someone please think of the children?

Khazarkhum

04-26-2008, 02:47 PM

Is there no decency among you at all?

There's a real disconnect--PA & decency.

We're trying to help people, but we're indecent.

We demonstrate where a PA author has made false & misleading statements, but we're indecent.

Since we're so indecent, so obscene and depraved, why do you come here? Are you the minister who visits the brothels to lecture the whores, but really comes for the fun?

JimmyD1318

04-26-2008, 05:18 PM

Mr. Rogers,

I will admit that sometimes some of the things that are said in this section about PA can go too far, so I will give you that. But, if someone is giving out bad information about publishing it needs to be addressed no matter who says it. I don't care if it was J.R.R. Tolkien, if what he said was wrong then it needs to be corrected. No one has ever said he can't write or isn't smart or anything like that. I respect the man for what he did during WWII. I respect the fact that he worked in journalism for a long time and has written stories for all those magazines. But if he says something wrong about book publishing it needs to be corrected. Now please, don't insult Jersey again. She is one of my best friends on here and I respect her a lot. And to be frank, attacking her or any other member of AW makes me lose respect for you.

Christine N.

04-26-2008, 05:26 PM

Um, if you paid any attention AT ALL to what was actually being said, Lane, most of us were defending Dick. I personally said he knew what he was talking about when it came to writing and MWA and all that.

He HAS put out some misinformation about BOOK publishing in the past, in fact, made statements so ludicrious as "agents won't allow you to blog, they want you to produce", and needing a portfolio to get an agent (which easily comes from his newspaper and short-story experience, where clip portfolios are used). So while I think he gave the newbies over there a good thrashing, and they are thumbing their noses at a good thing, he's not perfection.

I like the guy well enough, I guess, and he knows his business when it comes to his genre. Others said exactly the same. So where, exactly, have we been indecent?

James D. Macdonald

04-26-2008, 06:23 PM

Dick has put out five collections of his short stories (http://stores.lulu.com/dickstodghill) through Lulu.com since he started with PA.

Aside from an earlier (apparently) self-published venture (a book about Akron city football), Dick's Normandy 1944: A Young Rifleman's War was his first move into book publishing. He has a second book out from PA, but based on the publication date and the timing, my guess is that it was submitted to PA before his first book came out.

As to Lulu, he says (on his webpage), "Lulu provides the perfect service for [self publishing] and it’s free unless you want an ISBN and worldwide distribution."

I think he stays on the PAMB because it's a community he's familiar with.

JimmyD1318

04-26-2008, 06:30 PM

Queen of Swords

04-26-2008, 06:30 PM

You cannot serve both PA and professionalism (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26609&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15)

Regarding joining MWA and PWA, another author responds,

As far as wanting to belong to certain organizations and groups, well, some folks feel the need to be joiners, some don’t. Many of us write as a hobby and for the love of writing and don’t have to ‘belong’ to feel that we have accomplished something.

Pipesmoker replies,

Members of MWA and PWA don't write as a hobby, they do it for a living.

Name one author, just one, who makes a living off books printed by PA. If that's their only method of getting books out, then they have no choice but to do it for a hobby. Not that he'll point that out, of course. He says that he doesn't know one professional mystery writer who doesn't belong to those organizations, but what about all his fellow PA authors who write mysteries? Surely they're professionals with a traditional publisher, rather than non-professionals who fell in with a vanity press that will keep them non-professionals?

He often seems like he's trying to eat his cake and have it. And here's another case where I think he's wrong (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26335).

Borders recently announced that it will be changing from displaying spines to displaying covers. That's bad news for writers other than those already well known or the myriad of celebrity authors.

That's also bad news for everyone who doesn't have an eye-catching cover, thanks to PA's use of stock images and Photoshopped covers. I've opened books from authors I didn't know because the covers were intriguing. And each year the Cover Cafe holds a contest for the best book cover in romance sub-genres (it used to be associated with All About Romance). Some of those covers are so beautiful that I would pick the books up without looking at the author's name if I saw them in a store. It has nothing to do with success or celebrity - it has a lot to do with the publisher.

kullervo

04-26-2008, 06:35 PM

Mr. Stodghill seems to enjoy being a big fish in a small pond. Nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately, he is also a source of misinformation for the already misguided writers of PA.

This morning he does seem to have delivered a bit of reality. If he would but include PA in his "various POD firms" we might be getting somewhere. I left the last line of the paragraph on, because it lends a kinder edge to the whole:

Reality check time. How many books published by various POD firms could make it with a mainstream trade publisher? The market is snowed under with such books and many do not meet even the lowest standards. You know it, I know it. Prior to the Internet and computers, they wouldn't have gotten past a first reader at any trade publisher. Perhaps your own books are a step above that.

TwentyFour

04-26-2008, 06:52 PM

The problem here isn't we have "no decency", Lane is upset because you people here are telling the world PA isn't what it says it is. He is angry that his book was not put out there under reasonable prices and stocked on bookshelves nationwide. His problem is pride. I went to a small publisher with my short story and I received more from that company than PA gives to several of it's authors. All I published with that company was a short and I got more than the book length authors at PA, how fair is that? For one, I did check on publishers who accept my genre, who accept without agents, publishers who want to publish for the public, not the author.

When someone like Dick has no publishing credits (book wise) and they offer advice that is wrong, someone on this board chimes in here, not there. If we were over there attacking him then I can understand Lane fighting battles here, but we are not. We are on our board, talking about topics that have been here before Dick ever became a PA author, and we are not in his face at all. He knows we are here and he knows what is said, he doesn't like the idea that PA isn't a publishing credit either. I'm sure he and his clique would love to have a real publishing credit, but it just ain't happening with PA right now.

Christine N.

04-26-2008, 06:53 PM

And he's right. Members of those professional organizations WANT respect in the genre, or ar at least trying to learn from other professionals. Absolutely true.

I know he comes off as snobby sometimes, but he's putting a big hole in the balloons of those playing Author. LOL. I give him props for having the stones for that.

James D. Macdonald

04-26-2008, 06:55 PM

The short story reprint market is a really tough one.

The short story collection market is even worse.

Self-publishing collections of your previously-published work is a reasonable choice (say I who have done it (http://www.lulu.com/content/219003)), though I doubt I'd spring for an ISBN since bookstore placement would be ... unlikely at best.

TwentyFour

04-26-2008, 06:57 PM

The fact remains that if you are looking for a publisher, research is the best option. People who don't research get publishers like PA.

DaveKuzminski

04-26-2008, 08:22 PM

I'm waiting for Rogers to call out, "Wizard!" in a bid to summon reinforcements.

JimmyD1318

04-26-2008, 08:25 PM

I'm waiting for Rogers to call out, "Wizard!" in a bid to summon reinforcements.

:ROFL:I love that commercial! :ROFL:You earned your POPCORN:popcorn: for the whole month of May with that one Dave! What flavor do you want?

cethklein

04-26-2008, 08:28 PM

[quote=Jersey Chick;2297772]Pipesmoker's got writing creds - but knows almost nothing about how publishing works - which leads to a big case of little knowledge = dangerous thing.quote]

[QUOTE] Dick Stodghill is a superb writer and a solid professional. He became an established writer before most of you were born, can write circles around the writing-challenged folks on this board, and has more publishing credits than most of you combined.

Mr. Rogers, no one here will question that he is a legitimate writer. But that doesn't make him an expert on agents/etc. Bret Favre is a great football player but that doesn't mean he'd make a great coach. And while i think Mr. Stodghill is likely a great author, i have to question why a man who has legitimately published works wold associate with PA. And if you think the people here are writing challenged, try reading some of the posts on PAMB. Though I assume you do given the fact you are a regular poster there. And for the record, we have numerous published authors here many of whom have novels with the big houses like DAW, Tor, and Baen. So no I don't believe he has more writing cred than people here. Looking at your own website I can't find the first published book outside PA/POD publishing so i would appear you're in the same boat at some of us as well. If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.

Also, Stodghill, to his credit, if offering a reality check to all PA authors, as other here have said. This reality check however has seemingly gone unnoticed including by you. If you revere the man so much, why not take his advice?

AW's credibility diminishes as its petty, self-serving meanness increases. Haven't you folks better ways to entertain yourselves? The smugness expressed here is numbing. Find a target appropriate to your level of professionalism and leave serious writers alone.

OUR credibility is in question??? If you're so intent on questioning credibility I have to wonder as to why you'd not done so on PAMB. Ahh that's right they'd ban you. Or would you even question them?

Is there no decency among you at all?

I ask the same question about PA every day. Do you?

The people here may seem mean-spirited but at least we are honest. PublishAmerica is what we sat it is, we're not bending the truth whatsoever. I suggest you take a gander at this topic here:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44972

As you can see, many have tried the "AW are just jealous/idiots/big meanies" approach. We debunk that every time.

JimmyD1318

04-26-2008, 09:40 PM

Is there no decency among you at all?

When we stop warning beginning writers about places like PA and the misinformation that is spouted over on the PAMB, then you can say this. N'uff said...as Stan 'the Man' Lee would say.

Queen of Swords

04-26-2008, 09:49 PM

The truth comes out (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=75)

The truth is, PA makes its money from the authors - not by charging to publish a book, but by selling the finished product to the authors to re-sell.

We authors have many stumbling blocks: the price, the size, the unfair "self published" or POD tag (which many people equate with self published), the inability to get our books into brick and mortor stores, and finding new an innovative ways to market. Add to that the problem with Amazon, and our job just got a lot harder.

In my years on this board, I've seen many people try many ways to break through the barriers, but sadly none have worked very well.

Our only hope, as I see it, is for PA to make their bookstore more accessable to the public (as in easier to find), drop the prices and advertise.

This is from someone who seems to be a PA supporter, and who has been with them for five years. I guess in five years you can really run up against the brick wall (or more like, Iron Curtain) erected by PA to make you buy your own books.

cethklein

04-26-2008, 10:13 PM

This person seems to contradict herself and answer her own questions (but refuses to see those answers.)

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=75

Not all questions seem to be answered as yet.
All books published by other publishers seem to still be on Amazon, and available to order. So in conclusion the problem as it seems is ONLY with PA.

See, now you're learning.

So I now wonder why? Unlike most of the books now published, PA has a larger selling price for their titles. I wonder if that is a factor?

You don't have to wonder, it IS a factor, the main one I assure you.

In any case the problem is a business one and one that they (PA)should address and manage with their lawyers and do so privately.

Not gonna' happen. PA's lawyers are too busy suing people who dared to question them. And if they had any intention of changing they'd have one so years ago.

As for us authors, we should just keep writing and stay away from issues that we really do not have all of the facts on.

But you COULD have all the facts if you would do research instead of taking PA's word for it.. You complain about PA then in the next breath you say you'll just pipe down and live with it. This is why PA does things te way they do, because of aloof people who bend over and take it.

Getting involved in any legal matter that does not pertain to us is really dangerous.

Aint that the truth.

PA has a contract with us to represent us and our books on line with stores and to make them available for purchase? I would imagine if they are not able to that then this is something we should be concerned with. Our contracts need to be honored.

No if you read your contract you'll see they are only obliged to print your book. "representation" is your problem not theirs. So yes, they are honoring the contracts. They print your books jsut like they said they would.

I hope that this post is not deleted! I am only expressing my concern and ask additional questions about our involvement.

Wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first. It WILL be deleted. Apparently this person didn't notice there are NO negative posts about PA. Why? Because they ALL get deleted. If that's not a red flag I don't know what is.

When any of my books are ordered from Amazon, they are received within 4 days. I wonder why it takes an order from PA 4 weeks?

Because PA is only obliged to ship them there is no clause stating a time frame. So you can bet they are using the cheapest shipping methods available to them. Kinda' makes you wonder what you get for your $20 book cost huh?

JimmyD1318

04-26-2008, 10:20 PM

The truth comes out (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=75)

This is from someone who seems to be a PA supporter, and who has been with them for five years. I guess in five years you can really run up against the brick wall (or more like, Iron Curtain) erected by PA to make you buy your own books.

Well...that will go *POOF!* pretty soon. Can't have the truth coming out over there. That's a bad thing, and they will get wished away to the corn field for it.(Old Twilight Zone quote.)

Afinerosesheis

04-26-2008, 10:47 PM

Mr. Lane, the pamb board needs you worse than we here do. Bullies, lies, misconceptions, mean-spirtness, rudeness, and all backed by the publisher fourish. There is lots of indecency (sp) going on over there every day. Go take care of your own before you come here judging us.

Everyone I know here, including myself, has the highest regard for Dick S. Ask him who gave him a certificate last year in recognition of his contributions to fellow authors. I didn't see your name on the certificate anywhere. I consider Dick a friend and he has even spoken to my son about baseball. Is Dick perfect and right on every time with his advice? No, and neither is anyone else.

The AW is a place to help authors (even if the truth might hurt), what does the PAMB do to help anyone? Not a da*n thing!

Go clean your closet first then maybe you can come back and worry about ours.

TwentyFour

04-26-2008, 10:56 PM

...
I don't care for Mr. Lane's words either, but you're being rude beyond belief. I'm at a loss for words...

JulieB

04-26-2008, 11:43 PM

I don't care for Mr. Lane's words either, but you're being rude beyond belief. I'm at a loss for words...

Same here. That was totally uncalled for, IMO.

Sparhawk

04-26-2008, 11:46 PM

I don't care for Mr. Lane's words either, but you're being rude beyond belief. I'm at a loss for words...

Yeah, you're right. I'm just tired af the game.. they come over here knowing that we simply attack the misinformation spread about the publishing industry. The fly-bys get tiresome. No one is questioning Dick's writing credentials, just his knowledge of book publishing. I don't know how many times the same things have to be repeated over and over again before the PAvidians understand that. Maybe they never will and PA knows this, therefore PA will outlive all of us. Bad behavior doesn't excuse bad behavior on my part. Conisder me justly reuked.

TwentyFour

04-27-2008, 12:12 AM

I'm happy to see that, I'm sure many of your online friends here see how big you are to apologize. BTW, I think it's cute you called me Southern Rose...LOL.

JulieB

04-27-2008, 12:51 AM

Sparhawk has apologized for his remarks and deleted his post.

I respectfully suggest we drop the personal attacks on all sides and get back to the topic, please.

Rolling Thunder

04-27-2008, 01:05 AM

JulieB makes a fine point. I'm beyond closing this thread again: further disrespectful posts will be deleted and the guilty party(ies) will spend a few days cooling their heels.

This applies to everyone. Keep the thread on topic and the discussion respectful.

Queen of Swords

04-27-2008, 01:53 AM

Well...that will go *POOF!* pretty soon.

Already gone. Too bad; I liked the simple, clear facts in it. What's sad is that even though the author knows what PA is, she may have invested too much in her book to look for another publisher for her next book.

Sparhawk

04-27-2008, 02:04 AM

choppersmom

04-27-2008, 02:11 AM

I'd like to know how much capital PA made from their authors with this latest sale versus how many members of the reading pubic took advantage of this price reduction. I guess a follow up question would have to be; what percetnage of the reading public is acually aware of Publish America books?

With the exception of the PAMB and AW plus a few other threads(forums) frequented by writers and authors, how many actual readers / customers are even aware that Publish Amerca exists?

I never heard of it until I decided to become a writer, and then it was via a warning in an article somewhere, basically telling would-bes to stay away from PA. Other than that, I honestly don't know how many people would ever actually be in the kind of situation where they would hear of it.

Donnettetxgirl

04-27-2008, 02:28 AM

Wow! this has been entertaining.

Ya know, at some point PA authors have got to see that their publisher really doesn't give a rats *ss about promoting them & their books. Judging from the PA threads that I've read, sometimes this reality sets in, sometimes despite the fact that it does they continue to stick up for PA.

I don't get that. If my publisher did the things to me that PA has done to their authors, I would darn sure want to let everyone & anyone know to keep their distance from them.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romancauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater

BenPanced

04-27-2008, 03:25 AM

But it's the allure and glamor of being able to tell their friends and family they're a Published Author! They've had a book published and it was so easy! And they didn't have to pay for it! Because they're so stuck on PA and "the break" they've finally, finally gotten, without having done further research because PA was the first one who said "yes", they generally fall for it hook, line, and sinker, believing anything Infomonster and other PAvidians tell them. Since they haven't done any research, they think PA is how other publishers operate and as long as they want continue to play Author!: The Role-Playing Game by the rules, they'll buy the books and set up the websites and buy the books and make the aprons and buy the books and print the bookmarks and buy the books and assemble the lollipop trees, etc.

Komnena

04-27-2008, 04:12 AM

Name one author, just one, who makes a living off books printed by PA.

Willem Meiners?

DaveKuzminski

04-27-2008, 04:16 AM

No fair, that was too easy to answer. ;)

TwentyFour

04-27-2008, 04:45 AM

Being an avid reader, I recognized PA before going online, as a publisher that would not have my works in their hands, ever.

On myspace, I sent out several messages about PA and received mail in return thanking me for the advice on PA. Some authors had not heard about them and thanked me for letting the cat out of the bag about such a company. I hope that kept a few away from PA.

JimmyD1318

04-27-2008, 04:49 AM

Already gone. Too bad; I liked the simple, clear facts in it. What's sad is that even though the author knows what PA is, she may have invested too much in her book to look for another publisher for her next book.

I knew it! *POOF!* Into the great Internet void! *SNIFF!* *SNIFF!* It's enough to make a POPCORN MONSTER cry.:cry:

TwentyFour

04-27-2008, 04:57 AM

I also ordered one book from Roger lane for 80 cts and there were many more left; If I were him I'd buy them all outright, as I said in my review of his book, you can't beat those prices!http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&start=75

I don't know what is going on! but something is and I fail to see what they hope to achieve with it. Consider this, I recently bought Lane Rogers's book' "Crime and Punishments"on Amazon very cheap. and I thought that was a good deal, now I see that if I had waited I could have had it for $ 0.86!!!!!!
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26584&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

Mr Rogers, I was able to buy your book "Crimes and Misdeeds"for $1.69, so I shall let you know the condition it came in and the contain therein..after I read it.http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=290214&highlight=#290214

I deleted my comment so others can read the info on who and what is being said for themselves...:)

cethklein

04-27-2008, 05:43 AM

Already gone. Too bad; I liked the simple, clear facts in it. What's sad is that even though the author knows what PA is, she may have invested too much in her book to look for another publisher for her next book.

Wow even faster than I expected. PA's moderators are definitely moving quick this weekend. I think this development should be yet another red flag for our pA lurkers here.

"People who have nothing to hide, don't."

kullervo

04-27-2008, 06:11 AM

Just got back from the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books at UCLA. A great event every year. Sat in on a panel about the future of publishing. Some quotes:

"We are always looking for great new authors. And we are finding them."

"There are 537 new books published every business day in this country."

"There are more opportunities for new writers now than ever before."

The real world of publishing is waiting for you, PA writers. Fight for your work. Quit feeding it through the mill.

cethklein

04-27-2008, 07:11 AM

And you have the audacity to rattle about misinformation.

First, I believe a warning about demeaning and inflammatory posts was already made by a moderator. Second, I'll repeat what others have said: for someone who is so appalled by "misinformation" I have to wonder why you're knocking people for supposedly posting it here yet you don't make a peep on PAMB about PA's lies (you don't even make a peep about their lies HERE for that matter.) Obviously if you mentioned it on PAMB they'd basn you. But I haven't seen you question their proven lies here yet you call people on AW out for lying.

Why is that? I must be missing something so please clarify, I want to understand. Why is an AW poster (supposedly) lying so bad yet PA (definitely) lying is something you don't act bothered about?

James D. Macdonald

04-27-2008, 07:48 AM

Folks, all this is veering very close to being a set of personal attacks. Please back off some.

Mel

04-27-2008, 08:00 AM

Returnable (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26453)
This is a simple question to ask . Does anybody know how you can check to see if your book is returnable? Does it just cover print books or all books?

Color me stupid because I never get PA's reasoning behind this. It's been asked over and over about the author's book being made returnable and the answer is always the same. Just contact PA and they will do it. So, why don't they automatically do it to begin with?

Is this one of their little tricks? If one doesn't ask they don't bother with it? Odd, because just the asking gets it done. Of course, their set up doesn't make it worth it for book stores in the end.

Afinerosesheis

04-27-2008, 08:22 AM

Afinerosesheis

04-27-2008, 08:24 AM

First, I believe a warning about demeaning and inflammatory posts was already made by a moderator. Second, I'll repeat what others have said: for someone who is so appalled by "misinformation" I have to wonder why you're knocking people for supposedly posting it here yet you don't make a peep on PAMB about PA's lies (you don't even make a peep about their lies HERE for that matter.) Obviously if you mentioned it on PAMB they'd basn you. But I haven't seen you question their proven lies here yet you call people on AW out for lying.

Why is that? I must be missing something so please clarify, I want to understand. Why is an AW poster (supposedly) lying so bad yet PA (definitely) lying is something you don't act bothered about?

Short attention span? Too complex a topic? Your post is a tangent that has nothing to do with the issue addressed in mine.

Lane is obviously and blatently just trolling to cause trouble here. I say lets not give him the power to mess things up at AW.

Jersey Chick

04-27-2008, 08:24 AM

I can't say for certain, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a nasty little trick. If they automatically make books returnable, they lose one reason why bookstores won't carry it and why the authors themselves should buy a bunch to "keep on hand to sell."

Remember, the general buying public is not PA's target market. :)

ETA This was in response to Mel - some people are typing faster than me tonight - must be those margaritas I had at dinner :D

kullervo

04-27-2008, 08:49 AM

Thanks for the heads up. Hearing this news straight from the publishers' mouths gives authors like me a spark of hope. Thanks for that.

Glad to. Part of why I go. You always meet lots of encouraging editors and agents and authors there with first books. It was nice to go over and talk to the folks at Sisters in Crime, which I joined last week because I have a mystery coming out in the fall.

And despite Mr. Stodghill's dire warning, I, a first-time-published novelist, did in fact manage to fall practically ass-backwards into a 5,000 hardback print run with a mystery from a commercial publisher. I'm pleased he's happy with his publisher. I wish he would stop trying to convince others that they can do no better.

Afinerosesheis

04-27-2008, 09:37 AM

Glad to. Part of why I go. You always meet lots of encouraging editors and agents and authors there with first books. It was nice to go over and talk to the folks at Sisters in Crime, which I joined last week because I have a mystery coming out in the fall.

And despite Mr. Stodghill's dire warning, I, a first-time-published novelist, did in fact manage to fall practically ass-backwards into a 5,000 hardback print run with a mystery from a commercial publisher. I'm pleased he's happy with his publisher. I wish he would stop trying to convince others that they can do no better.

After being published by "the publisher that is better off not named", one feels pretty crappy being sucked into that vortex. I have at times felt less worthy than the average writer for various reasons. Therefore I have also felt that maybe traditional publishing might not be in the cards for me. It really makes me angry when some become mean and spiteful about "the publisher that is better off not named" because they have no idea how it is to be so disappointed. They say it's ALL our faults. BS!!

I know that's not how it is, there is hope for me and all other authors who want to work to improve and face rejections, but I know it can happen. I didn't learn that anywhere else but here. Your post just gave me a little more much-needed confidence and I appreciate that. Rep for you. =)

Christine N.

04-27-2008, 03:19 PM

cethklein

04-27-2008, 03:52 PM

Short attention span? Too complex a topic? Your post is a tangent that has nothing to do with the issue addressed in mine.

Who exactly is this in response to?It obviously isn't me. Would you please answer my question? I'm not trying to be smug here I genuinely want insight into the logic you're using here.

JimmyD1318

04-27-2008, 04:58 PM

Folks, all this is veering very close to being a set of personal attacks. Please back off some.

I agree with Uncle Jim. Let's just back off of it. It will only lead to a flame war.

kullervo

04-27-2008, 06:13 PM

After being published by "the publisher that is better off not named", one feels pretty crappy being sucked into that vortex. I have at times felt less worthy than the average writer for various reasons. Therefore I have also felt that maybe traditional publishing might not be in the cards for me. It really makes me angry when some become mean and spiteful about "the publisher that is better off not named" because they have no idea how it is to be so disappointed. They say it's ALL our faults. BS!!

I know that's not how it is, there is hope for me and all other authors who want to work to improve and face rejections, but I know it can happen. I didn't learn that anywhere else but here. Your post just gave me a little more much-needed confidence and I appreciate that. Rep for you. =)

Very kind! I do wish every writer could find an event like the Festival of Books, which has hundreds of booths from bookstores and publishers and writing organizations and offers two days of panels featuring writers and agents and editors. Just to get a feel for the scope and complexity of the writing world. You really do get the sense that, if you raise your writing to a certain level and are not clinically insane, there just might be an audience for your work.

And the book I am getting published is one of those "this will never be published!" books (heck, one of my own agents told me so). I wrote it ten years ago as a science fiction novel. But it is also a police procedural. Well, the world has caught up to the technology, and now it is being published as a futurist mystery.

How'd I do it? I entered my publisher's contest last year. The prize? Publication. Their deadline this year? April 30th.

http://www.iotapublishing.com

TwentyFour

04-27-2008, 06:51 PM

Here we go again.

She isn't lying, but she's off by four cents.

Employ common sense and research a topic before engaging your keyboard. A quick check of Amazon would have informed you that the book in question is being retailed by twenty-one secondary sellers at prices ranging from 82-cents to $22.97. Certainly, if a copy was purchased for less than a dollar, it was a much used hammered pile of pages.

Most important, your premise is utterly off the wall. Crimes & Misdeeds was a regional best-seller that went out of print half a dozen years ago and has no connection whatever to your favorite publisher.

And you have the audacity to rattle about misinformation.

She isn't off by four cents, she posted she paid a certain price, then changed it randomly. I have to ask, if you have these regional best sellers, why did you settle for PA? Are you paid to be their spokesman? Can you clarify where the threads here about PA are wrong and why PA is a good publisher for someone who tells us they have a public following? Mr. Lane, you have some rude words in nearly every post and I can't help but wonder if you and some of your friends from PAMB (who were banned) have underlying motives to constantly fight here. Is it some sort of tactic to close down this thread and others? Locking a thread won't make it go away and it will only make you appear less professional if someone googles you and it shows your rants and rages at others. And I stand by my original post (read the quotes if you need to, they were not altered).

TwentyFour

04-27-2008, 07:00 PM

I hadn't checked, but I didn't think the Crimes book was your PA one, Lane. I remember seeing you had at least one other book besides the PA one, and Crimes didn't sound like the title you had mentioned sending to PA.

An honest mistake for someone to make. Which you could have just pointed out instead of being nasty. There's a difference between honest mistakes and blatant misinformation.
It's simple, there was no mistake and he can not man up that the PA elite french goddess could or would actually post something of misinformation. I gave a simple quote and it was not about him or his book, it was about a price on amazon.

Honestly, I don't know why you turn so fast Mr. Lane. Yesterday I take up for you here and today you attack me like a pit bull over someone you have stated you didn't care for. Listen, PAMB is a public board (at least the part I see) and you act like I've called your mother some name. If you don't like what we post here, you have the right to read other parts of the board. I'm not sitting here insulting you, you are doing it to nearly everyone on this side of the board. You even insulted some guy over reviews??? WTF? You continue to have a bad attitude and consistantly find ways to insult us over here. I'm going to go with Afinerosesheis, you must have some motive, no one is that nasty without one.

Sparhawk

04-27-2008, 07:42 PM

Christine N.

04-27-2008, 07:47 PM

Lane has already said why he took his last book to PA - limited market appeal and personal issues with the subject matter. It made sense, and was perfectly reasonable to me.

Why Pier changed the price between posts I don't know - maybe she honestly forgot. It's not something I would pick at. She says enough other stuff :)

PA still stinks as a publisher.

TwentyFour

04-27-2008, 08:08 PM

The trouble with the limited market arguement is the fact that there are university press and publishers who only do that type of book. I've bought so many from KY, VA, NC, and TN that I probably spent thousands on local history books about crime and rememberance, pictorial histories and legends. To be honest, limited market is only another excuse. I've bought self published, Lulu, IUniverse and many others that are better quality than most PA books I've seen in my area. I'd be mighty hard up for a publisher before I'd advise anyone to go with PA.

TwentyFour

04-27-2008, 08:13 PM

...And he deletes his posts, again...

Christine N.

04-27-2008, 08:14 PM

Hey, it was his choice, and unlike most PA authors, I think Lane had a pretty good grasp on what PA was and was not. If everyone who submitted to PA was as informed as Lane and some of the others, PA's submission queue would be much smaller :) and PA's wallet would be much smaller, since both Dick and Lane claim not to buy their own books.

There would STILL be people submitting though, because there are still those who got dejected and discouraged or impatient, and choose the easy way out.

Lane, don't behave like a child. Deleting your posts only makes you look like a flouncer and is beneath you. They're your words, own them.

Afinerosesheis

04-27-2008, 08:24 PM

I wonder if they'll ever set up a "NEPAT quotes" thread on the PAMB board. The rabid PAvidians are so concerned about what WE say over here why not have Wee Willy and his crew set up a rebuttal thread. Let them lift the salient points we make about PA and it's practices and let the seasoned PAvidians correct our mis-statements or where we are misinterpreting PA's business practices. THey can rebuke our remarks on a point by point basis with their PA cheerleading.

I wonder how many times we'd see "But PA gave me the chance I deserved when no other publisher would" as a defense. As I've said over and over again, Of PA's 30,000 "Happy Authors" how many are actually happy? How many are actively selling their books as of today; not many I dare to say. Perhaps Mr. Rogers or somebody else from PA can answer that question.

I would wager that the bulk of the 30,000 authors have merely fallen off the face of the Earth and given up, disgruntled becuase of their PA experience. For every fresh young "Newbie" of the PAMB there are two or three disgruntled and/ or discuraged PA authors that have simply given up because their book didn't get the chance it deserved becuase thanks to PA's self imposed barriers to entry they couldn't even get in the real publishing game.

Being an ex PA author who has experienced this first hand I feel justifed in making this claim. All PA had to do to get MY book placed regionally in New England was to LOWER the price. I did all the marketing and legwork myself. PA did NOTHING save for sending out a cheesy order form in lieu of a book announcement.

Instead of being able to sell several books to multiple bookstores and make a profit on sales volume; PA chose to sell NO books and refused to work with me. What kindof publisher behaves that way? Would not a publisher WANT to see one of its own authors get exposure and succeeed even on this limited baisis? Wouldn't that kind of exposure serve to promote both author and publisher alike?? I thought so, PA didn't. PA wanted ME to buy my books, thereby paying NO royalites and keeping all the profits for themselves (which was and still is their business paradigm).

Maybe W. LAne Rogers should hop over to P&E and read the police report on that site which cleary describes PA and ther business practices and how they treat authors who really want to be successful. These are in the words of a police officer who had been in contact with PA, not my words. They are enlightning and should be read by every PA author who has ambitions beyond self purchases.

I think the only PA author who came over here and didn' sling any mud but actually engaged in civil intelligent debate was an author by the name of CJ Wilkes. She was bright, polite and willing to discuss al facets of PA. But alas even she fell victim to PA's resident Pit Poodle for daring to post here in a civil manner. These fly bys are nothng new. We've had Gina, Shelagh Watkins, and several others who've come over here on fly by patrol. Where are they now? I'd like to conduct a "Whre are they now" study and track down PA authors 24 months AFTER their books were given the chance they deserved. Also, where is the famed HB MArcus today? Where are all the big PA players of even 18 months ago.. the musician guy "Love is Egg shaped", The teacher named Paula, and the Author who actually had her husband cook for Willem at her diner? They've all fallen off the PAvidian radar. Are they still pushing their tomes or have they joined the ranks of the PA forgotten, mistakenly categorized as "Happy Authors" yet merely content in putting the Publish America experience behind them?

I bolded some of the best points in Sparhawk's post. How many currently contracted PA authors are happy? Even content? A very few actually post on the PAMB. Many have tried and been banned. Seems like some of the ones who post there forever and a day are the most avid supporters of the company. When confronted with the real issues they attack like a demon from he//. The publisher supports this and doesn't lift a finger to try and take care of the authors who make them boo koo money.

The ones who have spoken publicly about their experiences and disappointments have been labled bashers and sour grapes. It seems you are only supposed to speak out if you are forever grateful for the "chance your book deserved". That's just not fair.

And what about the ones who don't speak up? Where are they and what happened to their dreams? Are they writing or have they just drifted away from that life and working somewhere day to day and given up all hope? Maybe a story idea pops into their head from time to time but they just don't listen to their muse anymore. They don't think they should even bother. An author puts months or even years into a manuscript and get so little for all their work and commitment.

Only a few can understand how that really feels. It hurts. It feels like someone has taken your dream and smashed it in the dirt laughing all the while. Then they come and knock the sh*t out of you verbally because you're not on your knees thanking the great "Gods" at PA for that chance.

Yeah I also wonder how many past PA authors have just given up on that part of their life, perhaps their special gift of writing stories the world would have gladly received.

The people who question what we are doing here (IMHO) have no compassion or respect for others who want to write, want to share their stories with a solid readership. Do they thumb their noses and think they are better? Maybe they don't care about their writing as others might.