PAMB and its quotes

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James D. Macdonald

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It's their new Océ POD machine, Hapi. I'm told it was just installed (at 24 S. Wisner, Frederick, MD, for those who are curious).

Remember, they won't need more than 50-100 of any title, and they can consider printing 'em at their next printing meeting, to be held at their leisure.
 
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spike

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Four-color printing? In quantity? On their own presses?

That's not like them. Why would they want to own their own setup? Four-color printing is complex and expensive, you need trained staff to run the system, and the machinery's prone to break down. Also, if they aren't running a bindery line, they'll have to be shipping cartons of printed sheets to a bindery, which is a big headache.

It makes far more sense to cut a deal with a color printer in the Far East. It adds shipping time to your production cycle, and you can't send an employee down to the plant to check the color balance, but it's the sensible, economical way to go.

The only other way I can imagine them handling four-color printing would be to lease a color copier and charge their clients through the nose.

I don't know anything about color printing, but when was the last time PA concerned itself with quality?
 

ResearchGuy

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. . .Full color children's books must have some kind of minimum page count. . . . Hmmm. Just thought of something. Full color books might be non-fiction reference and coffee table type books, too. Is color the magic word for PA now? . . .
16 pages is typical for illustrated books for very young children.

PA's costs just have to be ridiculously prohibitive for color books of any length.

One acquaintance of mine, Greg Voelm (he writes as Greg Velm) published a marvelous full-color trade paperback titled True Gold, a popular history of the Sacramento region, with emphasis on the role of gold. It is 183 pages, not counting fold-out maps. Printing cost, in quantity, about $2.00 per copy. Printed in China. (Not giving secrets here--he explained this in a public presentation recently, and the copyright page tells where it was printed.) The local Costco stores have it for sale at eleven dollars and change, while list price is $18.49 (a play on the Forty-Niners of Gold Rush fame). So, what would PA charge for something like that? I hesitate to even guess.

Another acquaintance had a paperback coffee-table-style book printed (oversize, color throughout) overseas, priced for profitable sale at $25. (Local interest book, primarily, and selling like hotcakes: Carmichael: Americana on the Move). Fewer pages, but larger format than True Gold. There again, of course, printed in quantity (thousands). I cannot imagine PA being able to produce anything like that at a price anyone could live with.

Trafford does color children's books. They are a bit pricey (POD), and of course require upfront fees, but have to be pricing the books at a fraction of what PA would charge.

FYI FWIW.

--Ken
 
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TwentyFour

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They used to accept the full color picture books from authors, remember Jamie Farr wrote one.
 

ResearchGuy

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. . .It makes far more sense to cut a deal with a color printer in the Far East.
Only if you are buying a print run of thousands of copies of a single title.

One publisher of my acquaintance had a short-run (500 copies, I believe--if I recall correctly) done in China of a gorgeous collector's edition (special interest with an accessible audience), oversize, slipcased hardcover, but that is an exception because of the design of the book and its audience; the book lists for $75.00.

No way is anyone getting POD done overseas (not for delivery in U.S.). Nor can any money be saved that way.

BTW, Lulu does color, at $4.53 + fifteen cents per page. A 16-page color book from Lulu would cost $6.93 plus postage. I set up one of my unpublished monographs at Lulu to learn how Lulu works. At 92 pages, Lulu's printing cost for the color version is $18.33 (b/w is $6.37). PA would have to set a far higher price (and then double that for retail price), I would think -- obviously impossible if anyone wants to actually sell copies. For the life of me I cannot see how they can make a go of it.

--Ken
 

HapiSofi

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That OCE printer's a touchy and expensive machine. It requires professional operation, regular maintenance, and proprietary supplies. You buy a machine like that if you need the in-house printing capacity and control -- say, if your job is to do highly specialized rush printing jobs for a wealthy company -- or if printing is your main business, and that's the equipment that best suits your needs.

This all needs real people to run it. Even buying paper for a printing operation is to some extent a specialized skill. PA has always hired hopeful, powerless, cheap labor (mostly local coeds) and exploited it ruthlessly. Experienced professionals from the imaging and printing industry don't fit that template.

If PA's making their own four-color picture books, they don't just have an Oce printer. I don't think those things have built-in binding systems, so PA's going to need:

1. Binding equipment, a supply of paper, and someone who understands how paper and bookbinding work.

2. Either a way to print and gloss their own four-color covers on heavy stock, or an arrangement whereby they're printed elsewhere and shipped to their plant. If the latter, the covers are going to have to be sized correctly in advance to fit the page lengths -- there's very little leeway for that on mass market and trade paperbacks. If a PA author makes text corrections that change the length of the book, that'll be a problem.

3. Personnel and equipment for packing up their finished books and shipping them out.

There's no way that this can be cheaper and easier than having some other operation print, bind, and ship their picture books. Between that and the need to hire expensive and self-willed employees to run it all, it just doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. I'm saying that I can't see how PA can be telling the truth.
 
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HapiSofi

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What Research Guy said. Slow color printing's cheap in China. Fast or POD color printing is very expensive here. PA's never cared about how long it takes for their books to come out, or how much their authors have to pay, so both options are available to them. There's no reason for them to set up as printers.
 

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I'll just insert this here for reference, even thought it has nothing to do with the current track of color printing.

The 'Open Call for comments on the "BOOK" business' has taken a turn towards links for paying for editing and related costs:
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=232216#232216

Continue with the color print discussion and look this over when you get the urge.
 

spike

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I'll just insert this here for reference, even thought it has nothing to do with the current track of color printing.

The 'Open Call for comments on the "BOOK" business' has taken a turn towards links for paying for editing and related costs:
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=232216#232216

Continue with the color print discussion and look this over when you get the urge.

The woman who posted the thread turning post is also promoting her ebook on self promotion.

I've noticed that she has turned several threads into: How to promote your book (subtitled because our publisher won't), then as an addendum, reminds people that she has an ebook about to be released on, guess what? Promoting your Book!

I'm surprised PA is allowing her to Spam their message boards with a non-PA project.
 

DaveKuzminski

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Right now, I'm not wondering if the printing machine bought by PA will break down. That's a given since PA is unlikely to hire skilled personnel. After all, PA has always tried to do it on the cheap. Therefore, the machine will go down sooner rather than later because no one will understand all the intricacies involved. It's not just knowing what to do, but when.

So, what am I wondering about? Exactly which partner will be blamed for spending all that money.

Of course, the printer could be a second-hand machine already on its last legs that they bought real cheap to disguise the true identity of their printer so that authors won't cause problems between the real printing company and PA. In which case, they might not even care. But with the announcement of color books being accepted once more, I have to believe they actually bought a good printer. So, who's going to get the blame when the machine dies?

By the way, when the machine dies I'm looking forward to seeing PA attempt to scramble to find a new printing company at the last moment when they have orders piled up and need the cash inflow desperately. This ought to be a real entertaining moment. I think we better have our pizza orders ready to phone out the moment it happens.

By the way, Miranda, when it happens, don't take a knife to a gunfight. Okay? Good.
 

James D. Macdonald

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If printing your own books in-house were a good idea, the major publishers would already be doing it.

The opposite is true. The major publishers ditched their in-house printing capabilities the moment it became possible.

Do you think they know something that Willem doesn't?
 

zizban

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Hasn't PA been bragging that they'll be the first major publisher not to out source their printing? as if this is a good thing.

In high school I worked part time at a printing plant, in the bindery. Nasty. Why would someone want to run one of those?
 

triceretops

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I think that the two arriving at the same time are more than mere coincidence.

That's exactly what I thought. From the time that they announced the purchase of the printing machine, up until this announcement to proceed with full color books, is the percfect lag period where they had the time to hire the printing operators, read the operating manuals, learn the operation, do some test runs and kick the tires, buy the stock and then finally say "WE ARE SO READY TO GO NOW!"

I'm upset when I realize the market (I call the writers the market) they are appealing to could very well be thousands of their previous authors who had approached them with full color books and were turned down--then had to submit adult books as an alternative Not only the previous authors, but what about their childeren, who make up stories and render clumsy little sketches to acompany the text? So mom and dad says, "Oh, so sweet. Ya know, we can sign/sponsor this for our kid and run it through PA! Our child will be an author! Imagine his/her own book!"

The odor I whiff here is a slush/dumping ground for kids books. Consider just how difficult it is to write a good children's book and sell it in today's marketplace. Everybody wants into it. The psychological implications of this are enourmous!

This also takes into account the thousands of people, who believe they can write a great children's book, and have been turned down in the past from other publishers. And the new ones, who've just written one and are looking for a pub house.

Folks, look for future announcements on the PA main ad board about this new developement. It would be interesting to see how hard they push this.

In regard to a previous post: Yes, 58 books in a week is down from the 70 or 80 that they usually churn out. I agree that AW has had a major impact on their sales--and all the other watchdog sites.

Tri
 
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Rolling Thunder

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The odor I whiff here is a slush/dumping ground for kids books.

This also takes into account the thousands of people, who believe they can write a great children's book, and have been turned down in the past from other publishers. Nor the new ones, who've just written one and are looking for a pub house.

Actually, one of the PAMB regulars made a statement similar to this, stating "many of which [PA books] are not worthy of anything more than printing on demand."
 

jamiehall

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I think that the two arriving at the same time are more than mere coincidence.

I expect that a sharp Oce salesperson got Willem to part with the money for a really nice system.

Imagine that! PA falls for a slick salesperson! One certainly hopes that they get back a bit of their own karma by trying to keep the thing running on the cheap.
 

Marian Perera

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So mom and dad says, "Oh, so sweet. Ya know, we can sign/sponsor this for our kid and run it through PA! Our child will be an author! Imagine his/her own book!"

I used to work for a very upscale school. Most of the kids there came from wealthy families who indulged them, and one such family paid for their six-year-old's story about a sea monster to be published. They donated a copy to the school library. That was when I realized the book had been published without correcting any of the numerous spelling and grammatical errors that the six-year-old made. The librarian eventually included it in the collection, but I don't think she ever called the other kids' attention to it, and for good reason.
 

allenparker

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Knowledge

Do you think they know something that Willem doesn't?

No, actually, I think Willem knows something other publishers couldn't care less about....

His staff will not accidentally send out a printing inventory to one of their authors like a outside printer might do. Nor will his staff report to an author that there are two printers being used like a second printer might report. Audits could be more peaceful.

But, since I write fiction, this could just be a Fig Newton on my imagination.

And yes, Aruna, I know that we Americans do not use the "couldn't care less" phrase properly. I'll send along a coupla shots of Uncle Ray's Headache, Toothache, and Anything That Ails Ya medicine. You might still have the headache, but you won't care.
 

ResearchGuy

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I. . . six-year-old's story . . . .
This reminds me of a paperback I came across last summer while boxing books to donate to SPCA book sale. It was written by a seven-year-old girl, Mary Celeste Deck, and titled The Book about Kitties. It consisted of a few dozen pages of childish lettering and drawings. It was simply charming for anyone who likes small children, cats, or both.

It was commercially published in 1978 (Price Stern Sloan) and became a best-seller.

Don't believe me? See http://www.alibris.com/books/isbns/14020 (scroll down) or look it up on Amazon.

By the way, I kept my copy of The Book about Kitties rather than give it to SPCA for its book sale. (The other couple thousand books I gave them should have sufficed.)

--Ken
 
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