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Joanna_S
04-01-2008, 06:25 AM
I sold some books on Amazon. There was no fee to do so other than a small cut they take from the sale. I also have a friend who sells books all the time there. She's never paid any yearly fee. It's more like ebay -- put your product up (that part is free, so different from ebay) and if it sells Amazon takes a cut and you get the rest.

-- Joanna

Afinerosesheis
04-01-2008, 07:38 AM
And here's the "Buy your own books" spiel (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&start=75)



With supporters like this, PA doesn't need to require that its authors purchase their own books. It's just the modus operandi on that board.


Dear Author,

Thank you for the strong show of support that we have been receiving after we informed you about how PublishAmerica is leading the industry in resisting what many consider Amazon.com's recent bullying practices.

Again, if you want to share your thoughts on this issue with Amazon, here's a good email address to use: jcliffo@amazon.com.

Please note that the nation's largest bookseller Barnes and Noble continues to list your book online at www.BarnesandNoble.com (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/). They are an excellent alternative for Amazon for those customers who prefer not to use the sales options that are still being listed by Amazon. BarnesandNoble.com uses the same printer for PublishAmerica's books (Lightning Source) that has served Amazon for all these past years, and they deliver just as promptly.

So let us start April on a royal note for those of you who want to keep copies of their book on hand. In fact, we'll throw in free shipping (one of those customer-friendly features that we have always respected Amazon for), US domestic sales only, for all of these following orders.

* Between 5 - 50 copies: we offer 35 pct discount, plus we pay royalties, plus we do FREE shipping;
* 51 - 100 copies: 40 pct discount, plus we pay royalties, plus FREE shipping;
* 101 - 200 copies: 45 pct discount, plus we pay royalties, plus FREE shipping.
* 201 or more copies: 50 pct discount, plus we pay royalties, plus FREE shipping.

Phone orders only, at 301 695-1707, between 9am - 8pm EST. Offer expires April 4. Sorry, hardcover books excluded, but fullcolor books are included!

Thank you again for your support!

PublishAmerica Author Support Team

DaveKuzminski
04-01-2008, 07:44 AM
Needless to say, never let it be said that PA would miss an opportunity to have a sale to its authors. Of course, the discounts are slanted very much in PA's favor to make up for the free shipping.

By the way, notice the soft words spoken about Amazon? Is something happening?

Mel
04-01-2008, 08:06 AM
They do like to claim that "leading industry" term, don't they.

Are those discounts lower than last time, or was that some special they had? Or am I misremembering?

::please ignore avatar - AW has an epidemic going on so be careful where you step::

Afinerosesheis
04-01-2008, 08:22 AM
They do like to claim that "leading industry" term, don't they.

Are those discounts lower than last time, or was that some special they had? Or am I misremembering?

::please ignore avatar - AW has an epidemic going on so be careful where you step::

When I bought my first (and last) bunch of books I paid a fortune in shipping, but didn't have to buy so many as stated now to get the 50% discount. The deals are just a hair better now with the free ship and royalties.
Imagine, paying yourself royalties. I got to go to bed!!

PS, Mel I like the new Avatar. Jigglypuff is so cute =)

Jersey Chick
04-01-2008, 08:49 AM
I thought the discounts were lower last time as well.

Then again - my new avatar may be muddling my thoughts.

Aren't I just so cute - all big-eyed and pink??? :D

Lccorp2
04-01-2008, 04:43 PM
I don't know. I've already seen three jigglypuff avatars on this board alone today.

dpaterso
04-01-2008, 04:46 PM
Talking about avatars means PA wins. I'm moving this entire thread to the password-protected Fluffy Avatars forum. The password is

Duncan J Macdonald
04-01-2008, 05:35 PM
Talking about avatars means PA wins. I'm moving this entire thread to the password-protected Fluffy Avatars forum. The password isAnd what will we do today, Brain ?

CatSlave
04-01-2008, 06:39 PM
Are those discounts lower than last time, or was that some special they had? Or am I misremembering?
You remember correctly.
These are NEW, even LOWER discounts!
And NEW, even HIGHER minimum purchases required.
And mere pennies in royalties!

*woot, woot*

Jersey Chick
04-01-2008, 07:47 PM
Hmm.... that's what I thought. The thing is - if they pay you royalties on the books you've bought, how is that special? I'm still only on my first cup of coffee (and the pink creature who apparently ate Hobbes gave me nightmares last night, so I didn't sleep great) but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...

kullervo
04-01-2008, 07:58 PM
It's like my friends who are excited about their IRS refunds every year. I try explaining that it's their money they've loaned the government for free all year, but the thrill remains. "Woot! My withholding is screwed up!"

Jersey Chick
04-01-2008, 08:00 PM
Hey - I love getting that refund - though I know it's an interest-free loan. :D

CatSlave
04-01-2008, 08:03 PM
Phone orders only, at 301 695-1707, between 9am - 8pm EST. Offer expires April 4.
I see PA is working late to field the many, many book orders they expect to receive.
Note that the PA authors have all of three days to decide.
HURRY AND ORDER before you have a chance to think it through.

JulieB
04-01-2008, 10:50 PM
Since we speculated about Lulu in this thread, I thought I'd mention the post made by a Lulu staffer over on their boards today:

We would like to assure our users that Lulu continues to have a strong relationship with Amazon..com. As a result, the recent changes Amazon.com has announced should not adversely affect Lulu content listed within Amazon.com in any way.

A good reason to go with Lulu, if this is true. You do have to pay for their promotion package, but would probably be less in the long run to do that than to buy five copies of your PA (or whatever) book and send it along to Amazon.

Afinerosesheis
04-02-2008, 04:24 AM
I see PA is working late to field the many, many book orders they expect to receive.
Note that the PA authors have all of three days to decide.
HURRY AND ORDER before you have a chance to think it through.


Their offers always end within just two or three days. I doubt they get too many orders. With the economy the way it is people just cant afford to buy them even if they want to.

CatSlave
04-02-2008, 04:33 AM
Their offers always end within just two or three days. I doubt they get too many orders. With the economy the way it is people just cant afford to buy them even if they want to.
And it also gives PA a chance to claim that the buyer's credit card 'was not processed in time' to receive the discount or royalty or whatever.

We've heard that song-and-dance before.

Afinerosesheis
04-02-2008, 04:43 AM
And it also gives PA a chance to claim that the buyer's credit card 'was not processed in time' to receive the discount or royalty or whatever.

We've heard that song-and-dance before.


Ive not heard of them doing that. When I bought mine they went out of their way to help me get them fast in time for holidays that year. They have been kind to me a time or two, but the whole picture in the end just ...

It doesn't take long for the "newbie" status to wear off. Then you get banned.

Marian Perera
04-03-2008, 05:35 AM
We love PA (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105)

Some of the comments on that thread exemplify the "us vs. them" mentality that's so common on the PAMB.

I am glad that PA isn't giving in to Amazon's dictatior ways!!! So THANK YOU PA!! I AM VERY PROUD OF YOU!!!!!

You get a five-star review, PA!

Trying to take a positive spin on this situation, perhaps by PA taking a stand and not caving in, will show that PA is a serious publisher and the true alternative to "vanity presses."

Perhaps all the publicity circulating will open bookstores minds to shelving PA books and make book signings easier to arrange in the future.

Not quite sure how the latter will come about, given that the prices of PA-printed books aren't going to come down any, and they will be just as unedited, just as unreturnable, just as poorly discounted and just as difficult for bookstores to obtain.

But hey, don't let reality get in the way of anything.

Hummertime
04-03-2008, 08:40 AM
I agree. It sounds like this bit of extortion on Amazon's part has been brewing for a while, but it's PA that went straight to the head of the line for removal.

I was sort of put off by Amazon at first, but having since read the letter they put out explaining their actions, it makes sense. They're not completely refusing books published by other POD outfits. Rather, they're asking for five copies on consignment, so that such copies are readily available should someone order.

That's fair in my view.

Jersey Chick
04-03-2008, 08:58 AM
We love PA (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105)

Some of the comments on that thread exemplify the "us vs. them" mentality that's so common on the PAMB.



You get a five-star review, PA!



Not quite sure how the latter will come about, given that the prices of PA-printed books aren't going to come down any, and they will be just as unedited, just as unreturnable, just as poorly discounted and just as difficult for bookstores to obtain.

But hey, don't let reality get in the way of anything.
So now it's Amazon's fault that bookstores won't stock PA books??? :Wha:

I fail to see the connection. But then, it is late and I am tired - so maybe it's me?

choppersmom
04-03-2008, 03:13 PM
I rarely read the PAMB clips that are posted here, but I made an exception and looked at this last one, which only reminded me why I don't do it. It can't escape anyone how truly awful the command of the English language is on the part of many of the members there. Perhaps that's why they don't get picked up by real publishers?? Perhaps?? Reading comprehension is also at a low over there, or they'd all understand that Amazon isn't refusing to sell their drivel, just asking for stock to sell before they'll list the titles.

*Sheesh.*

CatSlave
04-03-2008, 07:21 PM
I was sort of put off by Amazon at first, but having since read the letter they put out explaining their actions, it makes sense. They're not completely refusing books published by other POD outfits. Rather, they're asking for five copies on consignment, so that such copies are readily available should someone order.

That's fair in my view.
That's fair, sort of.

Now who is going to PAY for those five copies from PA?
Thinking, thinking...

Sparhawk
04-03-2008, 07:39 PM
That's fair, sort of.

Now who is going to PAY for those five copies from PA?
Thinking, thinking...

Why the happy Cash Cows... I mean Authors, of course.

DaveKuzminski
04-03-2008, 07:55 PM
Why the happy Cash Cows... I mean Authors, of course.

Absolutely. After all where else would the cashholes get the money?

BarbJ
04-04-2008, 08:13 AM
By the way, notice the soft words spoken about Amazon? Is something happening?

Amazon will carry POD books if the books are supplied. C'mon, Dave, do you think PA will miss an opportunity like that? After their first defensive reaction, the wheels started turning in their greasy little brains. Anyone want to bet that within months they'll have a special "standing order" process to "Keep Amazon supllied"? Not their fault, of course. Amazon's the greedy ones; PA paid a dollar to show their respect. :tongue

I groaned at the comment someone quoted from the PAMB about forming a sales group to counter Amazon because PA authors have "power in their numbers". Do they realize there is such a sales group in place? It's on the PA web site. Has any PA author sold more than 1 or 2 books through the PA site? Sorry, but there's no power in numbers if the group you're supporting is not supporting you.

Yes, Amazon's out to make a profit. So is PA. All companies are. Which is why it makes plain sense to search for a company that's willing to give you some of the profits in order to make more themselves - and to work for it by honing your skills, learning your craft, persuing your goals. Do you want to be a writer? Find a commercial publisher. If they turn you down, work harder and keep trying.

If, on the other hand, you want to learn to be in sales ... frankly, PA's as lousy at teaching that as in teaching you to be a writer. They can teach you to knock yourself out (and spend your own money) trying to sell over-priced and untested product that's tainted by association in the eyes of the knowledgeable buyer. Sorry, but reality stinks at times.

On another AW thread, a PA author plans to become a best seller through word of mouth. No PA author ever has, but she knows she will because there's no other book like hers. She has not, of course, received her first royalty check, and word-of-mouth would have to be quite long-winded to carry the book through the 7 years it's tied up with PA. Reality attack: If the book is good (and I have no way of knowing), wouldn't it have been easier to go with a commercial publisher so there a chance there would be enough readers to create word-of-mouth?

ResearchGuy
04-04-2008, 09:30 AM
. . .Do you want to be a writer? Find a commercial publisher. If they turn you down, work harder and keep trying.. . .
Just so. For those who simply want to be "a published author" (status, formality) not a writer (occupation, profession) then there are other options, all of which involve a cost (or costs) coming or going.

--Ken

kullervo
04-04-2008, 10:02 AM
But the entire charm of the phrase "published author" to me is that someone in, you know, publishing, thinks my book is worth it. Worth giving me a check, an editor, a copyeditor, a publicist, and a cover artist, printing up five thousand hardback books and handing them over to a good distributor. They're even going to pay my travel expenses for my book tour, and my car gets lousy mileage. Without all those things I'm afraid I'd feel like a "printed author."

Khazarkhum
04-05-2008, 03:28 AM
PA is doing such a swell job with its minions...

Infocenter....


I believe Publish America should start
their own store on the web titled, what
else ? " PUBLISH AMERICA BOOKS-THE
FINEST BOOKS ON THE WEB." Just think
3,000 authors and you can create your
own printing , Amazon take that !....

Although he later edits it to 30,000 authors, he misses the point.

There already is a PA store. So why doesn't he-- a published author!--know about it?

Mel
04-05-2008, 03:41 AM
One would think the light bulb would go off at some point in time and the PA posters realize there aren't 30,000 of them. Do the numbers as to how many post. Granted, not all members everywhere post, other than some places where it's required to stay a member. More of PA's weasel words, stating they have that many authors. Total through the years, maybe, but not at any one time.

Jersey Chick
04-05-2008, 03:47 AM
I saw that post about the PA bookstore - and rolled my eyes. PA has enough trouble with the bookstore they already run. Could you imagine another one???

My head hurts just thinkin' about it.

Besides, why do they need a store? A few mass emails with their SPECIAL DEALS are really all the bookstore PA needs.

I have a headache and I need some Tylenol...

Afinerosesheis
04-05-2008, 08:54 AM
What a lot of these authors don't realize is the tax implications they will be getting into when selling their own books. Many states require collecting of state sales tax and paying that in quarterly or yearly payments. You are also supposed to report any royalties and gross book sales on your federal tax return. You can deduct expenses against this.

I know most will not have a lot to report, but according to the IRS you are to report this income. How many people really do this and is it really worth all this extra hassle to sell a few books here and there?

I know most authors' hearts are in the right place. They have such a positive outlook and are ready to get the word out about their works in any way they can. I commend them for that. But the odds are so set against them from the beginning. I wonder how many actually realize all this.

kullervo
04-05-2008, 11:32 AM
Slightly off-topic:

I'm reading through this thread from the beginning, and I've reached the happy/sad days of the PA author with the "dear, sweet, Autistic husband."

Here déjà vu takes over. I've just read Arnon Grunberg's The Jewish Messiah, and there's a character, a rabbi's wife, who keeps discounting anything her husband says or does by proclaiming that he's autistic. He raises minor protest, and most certainly isn't autistic.

Very strange thing to see again in one week!

(hardbound book, The Penguin Press, 470 pages, terrific cover art, $27.95!)

ResearchGuy
04-05-2008, 07:47 PM
Oh, my. Yesterday one of my PA-author acquaintances (who was strangely silent about PA for a change -- usually she is shilling like crazy) informed me that she is going to take a good look at publishing her next book (don't ask . . .) via a subsidy press. She mentioned a neighbor who used that press (apparently under the misimpression that he was self-publishing) at a cost of a couple thousand dollars.

I have no idea what might have suddenly soured her on PA. Most peculiar.

Curiously, the speaker was a new PA author who chose not to sell any of his books (the new PA book or his previous self-published or subsidy published books). I was not going to buy one anyway, but wondered why he brought none for sale. (I had received the mailed friends-and-family solicitation to buy a copy a few weeks ago.) Come to think of it, the speaker might not even have mentioned who published his latest book.

--Ken

kullervo
04-06-2008, 11:03 AM
Here's a question for any lurkers. I keep trying to unpack the logic behind going with PA. I can see it from one angle, if I squint, but there are so many imponderables...

After I sold my book, my publisher asked for my professional affiliations, for the purpose of press releases and review copies. What didn't they ask? For the names of my family and friends.

Why would you expect any publisher to ask for that? Don't they think that you, the writer, would be informing your family and friends of your forthcoming book?

Assuming you had called up everyone you'd ever met within a day of your book being sold, as I did, would you then send those folks order forms, or whatever it is PA sends?

Didn't think so.

Marie Pacha
04-07-2008, 10:08 PM
EEEEEEEEK!

http://www.publishamerica.com/easterpoem.htm

kullervo
04-07-2008, 10:18 PM
I refuse to write my publisher a poem. Put me on record.

stormie
04-07-2008, 10:20 PM
Oh. Oh no, no, no. And I was just taking a bite out of my sandwich. Blech.

Too scary.

Jersey Chick
04-07-2008, 10:23 PM
I should submit some of the **coughcough* poetry **coughcough** I wrote when I was in high school - you know, those very dark and depressing "No one understands the trouble I've seen" poems... Horrible stuff - I flinch a the thought alone...

Some things just deserve to be trunked, y'know?

kullervo
04-07-2008, 10:37 PM
Let's all toss in a poem. I know this publisher that will take ANYTHING...

Dave.C.Robinson
04-07-2008, 10:45 PM
I read it-- now I'm scared, it burns, it burns.

BenPanced
04-07-2008, 10:50 PM
Anybody want the rest of my lunch? Lobster ravioli with sauteed zucchini and peppers, buried under shredded parmesan and mozzarella.

Sparhawk
04-07-2008, 10:55 PM
EEEEEEEEK!

http://www.publishamerica.com/easterpoem.htm

Wow.... :cry: that is just..... just.... cripes, words fail me. A poem to a scam publishing outfit.

Listen PAvidians and you shall hear,
Ignore the warm wind blowing from Infomonster's derrier.

You've been scammed, bamboozled, hustled and conned,
You're dreams have been stolen, yet still you go on.

One if by Juffy Lube and two from your trunk,
A PA experience is nothing but junk.

Bookstores have dropped you,
Amazon's fled,
Your chance in the mainstream is practically dead.

Open your eyes and look toward the light,
There are people who care at Absolute Write.

Marian Perera
04-07-2008, 11:03 PM
If you want neither cash nor sanity,
If you're searching for a press that's vanity,
If you want to lose all faith in humanity,
Please consider PA!

No one else can accomplish less,
No one else gives you as much stress,
No one else will accept a mess,
PA's great that way!

Sparhawk
04-07-2008, 11:06 PM
If you want neither cash nor sanity,
If you're searching for a press that's vanity,
If you want to lose all faith in humanity,
Please consider PA!

No one else can accomplish less,
No one else gives you as much stress,
No one else will accept a mess,
PA's great that way!

:roll:

Jersey Chick
04-07-2008, 11:09 PM
:Clap: :Clap: :Clap: :Clap: :Clap: :Clap:

Mel
04-07-2008, 11:18 PM
And here I was thinking about making some lunch. Blech.

Mel
04-07-2008, 11:20 PM
If one wants poems that speak truth, they really need to come here.

Bravo!

stormie
04-07-2008, 11:54 PM
Now that I couldn't finish my sandwich after reading that Poem To PA, I found this: http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26401

The response to her question about how to submit her second book to PA, and *gasp* will they publish it, is from D.L. :"...but if it is rejected for sales try again after the next royalty period. " (Bolding mine.)

Didn't know that a publisher only rejects due to lack of sales on the first book. I mean, who cares if the writing stinks? Just make sure you buy your own books!

DaveKuzminski
04-08-2008, 12:07 AM
I suspect some of those PA writers believe that having lightning strike twice through the publication of a second book is the only way to deflect criticism of their writing ability. However, it's not their writing that's being criticized. It's their publisher. Because of that, they should seek out a better publisher. Actually, they should just seek out a real publisher since they don't really have one to begin with. Then they can obtain that first bolt of lightning before trying to get the second for verification.

Christine N.
04-08-2008, 01:24 AM
We need to resurrect the Verses of the Stipid Darf (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11922&highlight=verses+stipid) thread. Think PA would publish it? I'd bet they would.

Afinerosesheis
04-08-2008, 01:26 AM
I am always careful when I say never, but I can say I will never have another book published with PA with certainty.

Why submit a second, or even try for a third with them? Does anyone out there want better for themselves?

Jersey Chick
04-08-2008, 01:58 AM
Sadly, no. A lot are satisfied with Author:RPG.

Which is just as well. Those who do want more are the ones who, for the most part, get away.

And that makes me happy, :D

CatSlave
04-08-2008, 02:08 AM
We need to resurrect the Verses of the Stipid Darf (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11922&highlight=verses+stipid) thread. Think PA would publish it? I'd bet they would.
:D :D :D

stormie
04-08-2008, 02:10 AM
Well, they were very interested in my U R 2 Much story that I haven't written yet. Would pay me a whole dollar for it.

triceretops
04-08-2008, 05:30 AM
Sadly, and from much direct experience, a great majority of PODs, particularly startups, are using this exact same business model.

When you remove author self-purchases, and author arranged book- signings, speaking engagements, and conferences, the publisher's income collapses entirely. And, internet sales cannot account for anything more than double-digit sales, unless you have a humongus blog and with a large audience/fan base. Even then, you're pressed to the wall to make more than a few hundred sales.

Tri

kullervo
04-08-2008, 05:54 AM
Let's imagine for a moment that PublishAmerica did decide to start selling to the public. They dropped their cover prices, raised their discount, and sorted out returns. So suddenly there are tens of thousands of books out there that could be stocked on bookstore shelves.

For any lurking PAers who have a good book to PA, this looks like quite the miracle deal. But what percentage of those PA books are good? Two percent? One percent? Those books would be drowned in the deluge of PublishAnything books.

PA cannot allow its books to be seen en masse by the public. It cannot be exposed as a publisher of 98% mediocre/horrible books. The best thing anyone can say about PA right now is "never heard of them."

Afinerosesheis
04-08-2008, 08:31 AM
Let's imagine for a moment that PublishAmerica did decide to start selling to the public. They dropped their cover prices, raised their discount, and sorted out returns. So suddenly there are tens of thousands of books out there that could be stocked on bookstore shelves.

For any lurking PAers who have a good book to PA, this looks like quite the miracle deal. But what percentage of those PA books are good? Two percent? One percent? Those books would be drowned in the deluge of PublishAnything books.

PA cannot allow its books to be seen en masse by the public. It cannot be exposed as a publisher of 98% mediocre/horrible books. The best thing anyone can say about PA right now is "never heard of them."

You have made a good point. The best thing for PA authors who care about their writing is to chuck the PA book to a memory and try to move to other publishers, no matter how long it takes to get in with one.

WWWWolf
04-08-2008, 04:04 PM
EEEEEEEEK!

http://www.publishamerica.com/easterpoem.htm

♫♫♫
PAMB, bla la la la laa tra-la-la-la-laa (16-hour drum solo),
a team of power and energy
We go for the gold, together we hold
onto our vision of global strategy
♫♫♫

Sorry, I was thinking of a completely different song (http://resources.zdnet.co.uk/articles/features/0,1000002000,2124072,00.htm) of equally un-epic proportions. It is my firm belief that corporate and political poetry has to have, um, some additional characteristics besides of a sales pitch in something that may, from a great distance indeed, look like an attempt at writing in meter.

Stacia Kane
04-08-2008, 06:05 PM
Ah, see, before I checked the link I was trying to fit those lyrics to the tune of "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida". I spent several minutes on it, actually. Next time I'll just click first. :)

Marian Perera
04-09-2008, 04:14 AM
This is really sad (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150)

At <website> I have three pages of book covers that once took readers directly to Amazon.com buy buttons at current cover book prices. I have about 25 more ISBN's to load on another page. I looked at the pages already with covers and the prices and writing has changed to the used prices with buy buttons dropped. It really looks strange; some of the prices are as low as $1.50!

...I need to sell books. I want to write full-time. I cannot afford to boycott a bookseller, but I need to make it work for me in spike of its change in policy...

This is all a bit disconcerting to me.

The author is one of the veterans who seems to have tried everything to promote her book, including linking it to a Wikipedia entry. I feel so sorry to see all that effort and persistence wasted. Wanting to sell enough to write full-time, with the books being printed by PA, is like wanting to run a race with a land mine chained to your ankle - not only will it slow you down, it'll scare other people away as well.

kullervo
04-09-2008, 10:49 AM
I have just finished reading all 373 pages of this thread. It took me about a week. I feel like I've watched the slowest train wreck in the world. I am grateful that, when I started writing, the only vanity press was Vantage, and everyone knew what they were and that that was not the path to a writing career. I am also glad that my left brain is running the joint most of the time and insisted on learning how publishing works. Yes, I was always good at math.

Which brings me to one conclusion. There is much squabbling elsewhere (mostly on PA writer websites and blogs and the PAMB until the posts are pulled) about what is a vanity press and what is not. Here's a new, fairly rigorous definition:

If at any time, you have sent more money to your publisher than your publisher has sent you, you are dealing with a vanity publisher. It does not matter who pays whom first.

Another conclusion. PA has lived long enough to not be dragged to destruction in the courts. I kinda wished they had a reason to take a poke at me; I have an expensive attorney who enjoys air travel. But that seems destined not to be. No, my impression is that PA will not have death throes. I get the feeling that a day will come when they dismiss their staff and seal their doors and vanish overnight with a pile of gold and dreams. Hopefully they will void all contracts when they go, but who knows?

One dark observation. PublishAmerica may only come to public awareness in some crushed author's suicide note. We cannot know it has not driven someone to that last edge of despair. You can hear it in too many posts that vanish from the PAMB. It is too easy to imagine, and many here on AW know, what it feels like to realize you have made a terrible mistake with PA. That your dream might be in ruins.

A last thought. Do you people have any idea how much popcorn I've eaten this week? It's mentioned on nearly every page! Gaaah! I am poisoned... Poisoned, I say...

Khazarkhum
04-09-2008, 01:27 PM
Popcorn is good for you. Lots of fibre, not a ton of calories...:popcorn:

Sparhawk
04-09-2008, 04:59 PM
Popcorn is good for you. Lots of fibre, not a ton of calories...:popcorn:

Yeah, but it's the butter and salt that do me in. Then I have to have an ice cold gallon of coke to wash all the popcorn down. So I get a sugar and a sodium rush

Sparhawk
04-09-2008, 05:16 PM
I have just finished reading all 373 pages of this thread. It took me about a week. I feel like I've watched the slowest train wreck in the world. I am grateful that, when I started writing, the only vanity press was Vantage, and everyone knew what they were and that that was not the path to a writing career. I am also glad that my left brain is running the joint most of the time and insisted on learning how publishing works. Yes, I was always good at math.

Which brings me to one conclusion. There is much squabbling elsewhere (mostly on PA writer websites and blogs and the PAMB until the posts are pulled) about what is a vanity press and what is not. Here's a new, fairly rigorous definition:

If at any time, you have sent more money to your publisher than your publisher has sent you, you are dealing with a vanity publisher. It does not matter who pays whom first.

Another conclusion. PA has lived long enough to not be dragged to destruction in the courts. I kinda wished they had a reason to take a poke at me; I have an expensive attorney who enjoys air travel. But that seems destined not to be. No, my impression is that PA will not have death throes. I get the feeling that a day will come when they dismiss their staff and seal their doors and vanish overnight with a pile of gold and dreams. Hopefully they will void all contracts when they go, but who knows?

One dark observation. PublishAmerica may only come to public awareness in some crushed author's suicide note. We cannot know it has not driven someone to that last edge of despair. You can hear it in too many posts that vanish from the PAMB. It is too easy to imagine, and many here on AW know, what it feels like to realize you have made a terrible mistake with PA. That your dream might be in ruins.

A last thought. Do you people have any idea how much popcorn I've eaten this week? It's mentioned on nearly every page! Gaaah! I am poisoned... Poisoned, I say...

Well said... many kudos. PA screws many for little thereby avoiding the radar screen of any local enforcement. THose that have been harmed by PA usually lack the means and/or the financial ability to seek any justice. PA relies upon this and banks upon it with each new "Happy Author". It will take a wronged PAvidian with access to a deep pocket book and a sense of justice to get PA in a court room. Arbitration losses for PA are wonderful and make great fodder for our discussion, but they do little to damage PA. I was convinced after Phil Dolan's major victory that PA would crumble under the bad press; I was wrong.

PA's prey is the new, uninformed writer. The less knowledge about publishing the more susceptible to the PA mantra one is.

PA's new hired legal poodle is doing his best to discourage all ongoing efforts against PA (P&E lawsuit). In the end there will always be a PA. If this entity folds, another will rise up in its place. Like nature, corruption abhores a vaccuum. Sadly, there's a great deal of money to be made with the Publish America business model and the potential sea of victims appear limitless.

JimmyD1318
04-09-2008, 06:11 PM
A last thought. Do you people have any idea how much popcorn I've eaten this week? It's mentioned on nearly every page! Gaaah! I am poisoned... Poisoned, I say...

I think it was this thread where I got my nickname! ;) But I love being the neighborhood POPCORN MONSTER!:popcorn:

Jersey Chick
04-09-2008, 06:17 PM
It's all Jimmy's fault - we're hooked on popcorn because of him! ;)

DaveKuzminski
04-09-2008, 06:27 PM
Generally the smarter scams go for an amount that's less than what an attorney will charge. So, even if the scam returns the money, the author is out even more since it's almost a certainty that an attorney will be needed in order to prove fraud. Plus, if the scam occurs across state lines, the odds of the author trying to go after the scammer decrease.

BarbJ
04-10-2008, 07:53 AM
In the end there will always be a PA. If this entity folds, another will rise up in its place. Like nature, corruption abhores a vaccuum. Sadly, there's a great deal of money to be made with the Publish America business model and the potential sea of victims appear limitless.

It is limitless, and there will always be sharks in the waters. Many dreams have been shredded by scammers, and sometimes we seem to be merely pointing at the remains.

However, we can't know how many writers have been rescued from PA or similar predators (or should I say, bottom-feeders); those who've come forward on AW are only a sampling. There are more.

So the fight has to go on. PA is one of the more successful deceivers, and so garners a lot of attention - which is as it should be. More and more of PA's authors are attacking or rejecting us, which shows we are having an impact. It was Shakespeare who wrote something about protesting too much...

If only they would leave PA and give the gerneral population an opportunity to read their book, they may find out they can actually become a writer instead of pretending. Frankly, I don't agree with those who say it's okay for PAers who only want the RPG. IMO, by doing so they're supporting a scam and sucking others into the whirlpool. Not a good thing to do.

Too many watery images. Now I have to go. Or maybe it was thoughts of PA. :D

Afinerosesheis
04-10-2008, 08:24 AM
[/QUOTE]I guess PublishAmerica is really a POD publisher, otherwise it wouldn’t be an Amazon Booksurge victim. A publishing house can say they aren’t print on demand all they wish, but if the leaders in the industry consider PA a POD house, then PA is POD house. Sorry PA, but that is the reality.

I will not terminate my relationship with Amazon, and I am happily taking advantage of this situation. I list my books in the Amazon Marketplace myself and have done so for a few years now. This allows me to send signed copies to my customers at a fair price. The price PA set for my book was sky high. (12.95 for 61 pages). The other books in my genre range from 5-10 dollars. My idea of a fair price for my PA book is 9 dollars and even that is kind of high. If I list my book for 9 dollars, I receive $9.30 a sale. With the buy button gone, my price is the first one the customers see. If I need to I can lower my price more and still make a profit. I invested in my stock buying from PA at a discount in 2004/2005 so I lose very little doing this.

The Amazon Marketplace works nicely for me. I know who bought my book, when they bought it and where they live. I can even email the buyers to thank them for their purchase to provide a personal touch. If I wish, I can even send them holiday greeting cards. I also take the opportunity to promote my second book, sending a business card for it along with every book I ship.

My new book isn’t with PA and is definitely not a POD product. It has, and will always have a buy button on Amazon, thankfully. I sell my new book in the Amazon Marketplace as well, except my price is the second lowest because I let a non-profit organization have the low price. I can ship my books to the readers faster than PA or Amazon can and my customers usually receive the product within three business days, sometimes even faster. I can send book anywhere in the country for less than 2 dollars.

Best of all, I make a tidy profit, usually 3-5 dollars for every copy I sell. The royalties I get from PA are less than a dollar a copy. If I choose to take advantage of the frequent PA offerings to get my stock, I can collect the royalty on them as well.

IMHO, this doesn’t really need to be a bad situation. There are ways around it that can make it a win-win situation for everyone. PA sells books to me and gets their money. I sell books to my readers, I get my money and Amazon gets their money because I use their marketplace. The readers get their books in a timely fashion and at a fair price.[QUOTE]

This post interested me, especially the first paragraph. Other than that, it is a shame this author is still buying their own books and doing the work.

kullervo
04-10-2008, 08:39 AM
If his new book is not POD, why is he still selling them? Does he just mean they are not strictly print on demand, but that he already has boxes of them in his garage?

I wish he had had some links to his book. I was curious as to which genre might conceivably produce a 62-page "book." Poetry, I guess.

Jersey Chick
04-10-2008, 08:44 AM
I'm also pretty curious about his book(s)... ah well...

PVish
04-10-2008, 09:44 AM
If his new book is not POD, why is he still selling them? Does he just mean they are not strictly print on demand, but that he already has boxes of them in his garage?

I wish he had had some links to his book. I was curious as to which genre might conceivably produce a 62-page "book." Poetry, I guess.

His non-PA book (from Reality Press–anybody heard of that?) that he co-authored is here (http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Through-World-Spirit-Guardian/dp/0979175097/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207800069&sr=1-1) and his PA book is here (http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Bared-Metaphysical-David-Oakford/dp/1413723071/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207800069&sr=1-2).

His book was published by PA in 2004, but he hasn't posted much. His book isn't poetry—I guess it's sort of an inspirational memoir.

I did a bit of searching on the PA site and found his title, then searched the title at Amazon, etc. I tried to search on the PA bookstore but kept getting "ADODB.Recordset error '800a0e7d' The connection cannot be used to perform this operation. It is either closed or invalid in this context.
/shopping/shop$db.asp, line 924," whatever that means. Oh, I'll bet it means we don't sell to readers, we only sell to authors.

kullervo
04-10-2008, 10:13 AM
Ah, thank you. I guess metaphysical journeys take less time than I thought.

IceCreamEmpress
04-10-2008, 11:40 PM
If his new book is not POD, why is he still selling them?

That's not unusual for micropress books. Heck, it's not all that unusual for small press books!


Reality Press is a niche publisher somewhere between small press and micropress. They do have distribution to "New Age" and "spirituality" bookstores, but a lot of their sales are done in-person at the authors' talks or presentations, and at "psychic fairs" and the like.

As far as I know, they don't use POD technology, but do small offset runs.

CatSlave
04-11-2008, 02:46 AM
PublishAmerica is not a "publish on demand" company.
PublishAmerica is a traditional, royalty-paying publisher.
PublishAmerica is not in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy
publisher, and has nothing in common with them. Like all
traditional publishers, PublishAmerica charges no fees at all.

But it's the same-old, same-old...
Funny how PA never actually addresses the concerns of the authors.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&start=165

Marian Perera
04-11-2008, 03:48 AM
I really hope this author doesn't take his/her own advice (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26441)

Call libraries and tell them why books are disappearing off Amazon! Ask them not to buy from Amazon because Amazon is punishing new authors. And small publishers. Amazon didn't make this kind of deal for Random House, you can bet on it! And call bookstores and tell them why so many books are disappearing from Amazon. Tell them to look on Barnes & Noble. Otherwise your sales are going to continue to go down just because Amazon thinks they're so big they can do whatever they want. Let's show them it's not true.

Right, like libraries and bookstores are going to rise up in arms against Amazon. And it's not as though the books have "disappeared" - they just can't be bought new.

But on that board it's best to blame anyone except PA for low sales.

Jersey Chick
04-11-2008, 04:16 AM
And infomonster adds...
PublishAmerica charges no fees at all.

Nope - but we will do our damndest to make sure you buy as many copies of your own book as your bank account will allow. And if your account won't allow it, there's always a major credit card - and by the way - we're running a special right now, so whip out that credit card and start dialing....

ay yi yi

Stacia Kane
04-11-2008, 04:19 AM
Do they honestly think bookstores buy from Amazon?

Christine N.
04-11-2008, 04:35 AM
Libraries sure don't. Most buy directly from B&T, actually, more than at Ingrams, or so I've heard.

They read reviews in the ALA journal and that's how they make many of their purchases. No PA book has or will be reviewed in Kirkus, so that pretty much leaves them out of the library system, unless the author or someone the author knows recommends the book to the library.

Meanwhile, Infomonster refills everyone's glass of Kool-Aid

GrandmaMarti and CTroestler, you are both right. PublishAmerica
has always espoused the virtues of digital printing (printing on
demand), and we never said we didn't use it.

Soul Bared, the phrase "POD publisher" generally refers to Publish
On Demand, which is vanity, or subsidy, publishing.

The two terms have very different meaning and absolutely nothing
in common with one another. They charge fees for most of their
services, including reviewing manuscripts for possible publication,
publishing manuscripts if accepted, and editorial services, among
others.

PublishAmerica is not a "publish on demand" company.
PublishAmerica is a traditional, royalty-paying publisher.
PublishAmerica is not in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy
publisher, and has nothing in common with them. Like all
traditional publishers, PublishAmerica charges no fees at all.

More and more publishers, including major publishers, use digital
(Print On Demand) technology for printing, at least to some extent.
With digital printing, books can be produced as the demand
requires. Print on Demand is simply a digital, cost-effective method
of printing.

Digital printing has changed the publishing world in a revolutionary
manner, and it is an industry expectation that it will continue to do
so for years to come.

So, we're back to the POD vs pOd thing again, are we? Actually many vanity/subsidy places sell you a set amount of books up front with your package, making it a print run, not print on demand. PA prints books as ordered, or PER DEMAND.

There IS NO DIFFERENCE between Publish on demand and Print on demand.

Afinerosesheis
04-11-2008, 05:43 AM
The whole Amazon thing has PA authors in a whirl. What little chances they had are getting snatched away in a hurry. It is really sad to witness (and experience). =(

IceCreamEmpress
04-11-2008, 05:46 AM
There's no such thing as a "publish on demand" company. POD stands for "print on demand," which is the technology PubliSHAMErica uses.

They're spitting on people's heads and telling 'em it's raining.

DaveKuzminski
04-11-2008, 05:58 AM
If PublishAmerica is not a "publish on demand," but a "print on demand" company, then that makes them a printer and not a publisher. In effect, they're telling their authors with that line that they're not published, but printed. After all, lots of printers use the word "publish" or some form of it in their names. So, was this just a slip of the tongue where PA spoke the truth to their authors? Make up your minds, PA.

brianm
04-11-2008, 07:18 AM
PublishAmerica is a traditional, royalty-paying publisher.

PA coined the term "traditional" publisher because they cannot call themselves a trade/commercial publisher. That's because they are a vanity press. And you had best check your royalty statement carefully because PA's accounting is notoriously bad.

PublishAmerica is not in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy, and has nothing in common with them.

One out of three ain't bad, eh?

They do Print On Demand (there is no difference between Print on Demand and Publish on Demand, no matter how many times they say there is) and they make the majority of their income from their authors. Therefore, they are a vanity press.

They are not a subsidy press, so they did get that one correct.

Like all traditional publishers, PublishAmerica charges no fees at all.

PA coined the term "traditional" publisher. You're either a trade/commercial publisher or you're not. So, if you're not a trade/commercial publisher then you are either a vanity press, a subsidy press, a self-publishing company or a university press.

PA is the former. They are a vanity press because they derive the majority of their income from their authors.

Did I mention that PA is a vanity press? :D

Dave.C.Robinson
04-11-2008, 07:26 AM
PA coined the term "traditional" publisher because they cannot call themselves a trade/commercial publisher. That's because they are a vanity press. And you had best check your royalty statement carefully because PA's accounting is notoriously bad.



One out of three ain't bad, eh?

They do Print On Demand (there is no difference between Print on Demand and Publish on Demand, no matter how many times they say there is) and they make the majority of their income from their authors. Therefore, they are a vanity press.

They are not a subsidy press, so they did get that one correct.



PA coined the term "traditional" publisher. You're either a trade/commerical publisher or you're not. So if you're not a trade/commercial publisher then you are either a vanity press, a subsidy press or a self-publishing company.

PA is the former. They are a vanity press because they derive the majority of their income from their authors.

Did I mention that PA is a vanity press? :D

I saw this and just wanted to add that PA is a vanity press.

IceCreamEmpress
04-11-2008, 07:40 AM
Oh, yes. PubliSHAMErica is a vanity press that uses POD or print on demand technology!

Jersey Chick
04-11-2008, 08:42 AM
So, wait... just to make sure I'm not in the minority here ---

PublishAmerica is a vanity press, right??? ;)

CatSlave
04-11-2008, 04:48 PM
So, wait... just to make sure I'm not in the minority here ---

PublishAmerica is a vanity press, right??? ;)
Right.
But you forgot to mention they are a CHEATING, LYING, ABUSIVE, DISHONEST vanity press SCAM.
They give traditional vanity presses a bad name. :e2teeth:

Sparhawk
04-11-2008, 05:21 PM
Right.
But you forgot to mention they are a CHEATING, LYING, ABUSIVE, DISHONEST vanity press SCAM.
They give traditional vanity presses a bad name. :e2teeth:

.....BUt, they give aspiring writers the 'chance' they deserve.... NOT!!!

CatSlave
04-11-2008, 05:39 PM
.....BUt, they give aspiring writers the 'chance' they deserve.... NOT!!!
PA: Give us your dream; we'll pay you a dollar.

Jersey Chick
04-11-2008, 06:21 PM
I KNEW I forgot something!!

Also - we'll pay you a dollar, and don't you DARE question any of our wisdom, because we'll give you a smackdown so bad you'll never forget it...

Dave.C.Robinson
04-11-2008, 06:41 PM
PA: Give us your dream; we'll pay you a dollar.

I read that a couple of times and don't think it quite covers everything. How's this for an alternative?

PA: We destroy dreams, give us yours and we'll pay you a dollar.

xhouseboy
04-11-2008, 07:29 PM
EEEEEEEEK!

http://www.publishamerica.com/easterpoem.htm


I'll cover your EEEEEEEK! and raise the stakes with an AAARRGGHHHHH!

But I bet it's not better than the poem I'm writing in praise of the utility companies after learning that their profits have increased by 500% over the last couple of years - and so have my bills. Makes about as much sense as penning a complimentary poem about being scammed by PA.

Sparhawk
04-11-2008, 08:12 PM
Do we have a barfing icon somewhere??

Marie Pacha
04-11-2008, 08:25 PM
EEEEEEK's and ARRRRRRGH's are strangely accurate comments for either of those situations aren't they though?

I have a poem about a dyslexic customer service person that I sent to the corporate offices of a business with a letter specifying why I no longer needed their services. I felt better for expressing my frustration in metered rhyme.

kullervo
04-11-2008, 09:04 PM
I find that phrase "give your book the chance it deserves" disingenuous, if not outright cruel. Assuming that they have nothing but contempt for their authors (and how can we conclude otherwise, considering the tone letters), that phrase is full of mockery. Send us your money; we shall enjoy watching you fail.

JimmyD1318
04-11-2008, 09:07 PM
Do we have a barfing icon somewhere??
http://www.votefortheworst.com/forum/images/smilies/barf.gifUmmm...I found this from somewhere else. Don't get any on my POPCORN please!

James D. Macdonald
04-11-2008, 10:32 PM
PublishAmerica is not in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy, and has nothing in common with them.

PublishAmerica has a great deal in common with them.

Old Hack
04-12-2008, 12:39 AM
Seems to me there's a pretty important point to be made here.

PA recently invested in a nice new printing machine.

Amazon is now insisting that it prints all orders for POD books itself.

As a result, all of the PA books sold via Amazon would mean that Amazon printed them, not PA.

PA has, therefore, invested a HUGE amount of money in technology which is now not required.

What financial repercussions is this going to have for PA?

Just a thought.

Monkey
04-12-2008, 12:52 AM
I can see the headlines now:

POD authors P.O'd

:D

Seriously...

Isn't there something not quite...legal...about PA saying that it isn't a POD publisher? I mean, redefining an acronym for your own purposes but then continuing to use it in its standard usage...

Isn't it sort of like advertising that you are a scuba instructor, but instead of "self contained underwater breathing aparatus" you secretly mean "self centered underwear and bra afficianado"?

I mean, they are offering a POD service...can they just redefine that to their heart's content?

CatSlave
04-12-2008, 01:43 AM
Seems to me there's a pretty important point to be made here.

PA recently invested in a nice new printing machine.

Amazon is now insisting that it prints all orders for POD books itself.

As a result, all of the PA books sold via Amazon would mean that Amazon printed them, not PA.

PA has, therefore, invested a HUGE amount of money in technology which is now not required.

What financial repercussions is this going to have for PA?

Just a thought.
I like the way you think.

PA will certainly count on those authors who want to stand up to that bully Amazon and show them a thing or two by buying their own books from PA and peddling them elsewhere.

I cringe when I read the marketing ideas over there; everyone link on to even more author websites, committees to evaluate and promote PA books, start their own PA book store, yada yada.

Those poor people are trapped in the devil's intestines.

CatSlave
04-12-2008, 01:46 AM
Do we have a barfing icon somewhere??
I don't think so, but I'm fond of this one: :e2moon:

CatSlave
04-12-2008, 02:25 AM
Clarification please InfoCenter:

1. If PA is POD, that means no inventory. What is the problem of having Amazon publish and market PA books? Would not the "return policy" and accounting then become Amazon's responsibility?

2. What is the "profit" and "loss" factor for PA in considering this changeover?

3. How would PA lose its identity with its authors and its published books by utilizing Amazon's capability.

4. Since Amazon is a large conglomerate, what avenues does PA have to prevent such a printing/publishing takeover?

I ask these questions only because it seems we, as authors, have no idea what is going on behind the scene. Are these legitimate questions to consider InfoCenter? If the harm to Publish America is greater than the good, then it is imperative that the corporation plan for alternative directions and provide us, the writers with marching orders.

And the ever-helpful Infocenter replies:

see first post of this thread. For in-depth details see here: http://www.writersweekly.com/amazon.php.


Great answers as usual, PA.
I'm sure your authors are breathing a sigh of relief.

Christine N.
04-12-2008, 02:46 AM
FWIW, the AG's office has posted a message stating they are investigating Amazon. I lost the link, but I know I clicked on it and read the statement. They've received quite a lot of complaints.

James D. Macdonald
04-12-2008, 03:11 AM
If you ever find the link, Christine, or can recall in general what site you saw it on, that would be very helpful.

IceCreamEmpress
04-12-2008, 03:18 AM
I cringe when I read the marketing ideas over there; everyone link on to even more author websites, committees to evaluate and promote PA books, start their own PA book store, yada yada.

Those poor people are trapped in the devil's intestines.

It's like Stockholm Syndrome, but without the delicious smorgasbrods.

kullervo
04-12-2008, 03:20 AM
It's like Stockholm Syndrome, but without the delicious smorgasbrods.

Jeez, that is bad!

Stacia Kane
04-12-2008, 03:55 AM
If you ever find the link, Christine, or can recall in general what site you saw it on, that would be very helpful.


http://www.atg.wa.gov/amazonpod.aspx


.
.

TwentyFour
04-12-2008, 04:01 AM
What is really hilarious is the fact that they keep sending ppl to read writers weekly and this is on one part of the forum...

http://forums.writersweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=3595&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

All neg. info on PA....:)

Christine N.
04-12-2008, 04:03 AM
http://www.atg.wa.gov/amazonpod.aspx


.
.

Thank you December! I know it came in an e-mail, and when I couldn't find it I supposed I had deleted it. That's the one.

Marian Perera
04-12-2008, 04:17 AM
Here's a new idea (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&start=180)

The PA loyalists want to set up a site that will take the place of Amazon when it comes to selling their books, and they want to call it some variation of "Publish America".

However, if we use Publish America, we may have to get permission which I would think wouldn't be too much of a problem if its used right. Its about time we get some positive information out there. We all know that when you punch in "Publish America" into google you get the same old bashers.

As opposed to getting the same old misinformation that, when believed by aspiring writers, wastes their time, takes their money, ruins their dreams and makes a mockery out of what should be a wonderful experience for them.

In my opinion, a true writer would never ever try to destroy a group of writers.

This is just bizarre. This author seems to believe that there are people out there who are trying to "destroy" PA-printed authors, but I have no idea what the reasoning behind this could be. If someone writes critically of a company, it's likely they disapprove of the company's practices, but what does this author think anyone can possibly gain from "destroy[ing] a group of writers"?

It reminds me of Alien Enigma's complaint that we are all "tormented by fire and driven by burning visions of rage" or some such thing.

A dedicated writer would know that each book stands on its own merits.

A bookstore manager, whether dedicated or not, knows that all books are not printed equal. Therein lies the rub. Nothing we say or don't say will make PA-printed books any more palatable to the general public.

The predator companies in this industry always ask for money among other things.

Since PA asks for money before it ships books, that makes PA a predator company.

I think a major website for PA authors is a fantastic idea. If it is done well enough to get hits, maybe someone like Barnes and Noble would advertise on it.

Other people seemed to like this idea, though someone else warned,

Perhaps we should give PA a little time to think about this idea and the amount of support they will allow us

I can haz monei?

such as letting us promote the new site on this board, giving us a top 10 bestseller list, letting the other 30,000 authors know about the new site, etc.

Oh, PA would let them know about it. That would be reason enough to offer another sale, where authors can buy 50 of their own books at a 35% discount! After all, with this new website, the sales are bound to roll in, right?

Remember, PA has been burned by its authors before.

Poor, poor PA. http://www.crazypics.de/smilies/traurig/1444.gif

They would have to put a great deal of trust in us not to turn our idea into something they might not approve of. I'm not saying we need their sanction, but we don't want to bite the hand that feeds us either.

The hand that feeds you replied to say, "topic discussed sufficiently; no more please." (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=195)

And that was all. Talk to the hand.

Afinerosesheis
04-12-2008, 05:06 AM
Infocenter says: Grandma/Jon: topic discussed sufficiently; no more please.

I don't make a habit of using this phrase, but WTF??

Anytime I visit the jungle over there I don't know whether to grab an Ibuprofen for my head or a roll of TP for a sh...

I hope to heaven they don't spend a load of money to get a site together.

jamiehall
04-12-2008, 06:45 AM
This is just bizarre. This author seems to believe that there are people out there who are trying to "destroy" PA-printed authors, but I have no idea what the reasoning behind this could be. If someone writes critically of a company, it's likely they disapprove of the company's practices, but what does this author think anyone can possibly gain from "destroy[ing] a group of writers"?


Are people who disapprove of Wal-Mart's corporate practices "trying to destroy" everyone who's ever been a customer of Wal-Mart?

Are people who criticize oil companies for needlessly high gas prices "trying to destroy" every person who buys gas?

Are people who criticize individual politicians for their failings "trying to destroy" all voters?

I just don't get why criticizing a company and trying to protect that company's customers (its own authors in the case of PA) could be viewed as "trying to destroy" those customers.

I hope to heaven they don't spend a load of money to get a site together.

That would be awful! :scared:

ResearchGuy
04-12-2008, 07:56 AM
. . .

I just don't get why criticizing a company and trying to protect that company's customers (its own authors in the case of PA) could be viewed as "trying to destroy" those customers.
. . .
In my opinion, the reason is that those authors (the ones making that assertion) are grateful for what they think PA has bestowed on them, the status of "published author." They really do not feel exploited, but rather honored. (Some might come to feel exploited later, but probably few at most among those who put the issue as you have described.) Hence, an attack on the company that has accepted and honored them (in their view) is by extension an attack on themselves.

--Ken

kullervo
04-12-2008, 09:30 AM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26464

This guy has only been on the boards a few days. I see a glimmer of enlightenment:

Hello to everyone,

Does it never cease to amaze me that whenever something great happens in my life..and by that I mean my newly publicate book Slaves of the Shadow now available through PublishAmerica... I sincerely want to be corrected by anyone on here who can prove this wrong... but I have just read a few of many websites that stated PA is a scam! Articles that Barnes and Noble will not buy PA's books to place on their shelves..... on the other hand... I've done my research and have found PA Titles in Chapters bookstores. I mean, I kow I should NOT be typing this in here but I have to be curious as to what everyone else thinks and what type of successes youève had.

Curious and concerned

Gravity
04-12-2008, 09:41 AM
Frenchie and the Pipe will chastise him, to which he'll either acknowledge his guilt in questioning PA, or he'll start to dig deeper. I'm betting on the former.

I.e., he'll realize what he's done, and pull a Winston Smith.

We've all seen this movie before...

kullervo
04-12-2008, 09:43 AM
Poor guy. If he'd only Googled sooner rather than later.

Marian Perera
04-12-2008, 12:58 PM
His post is gone.

Christine N.
04-12-2008, 04:23 PM
Since we post little things from time to time to show how other publishers differ from PA... the other day I went on down to my local B&N. My aunt likes to buy me and my son books when she's in town :D. I usually cruise around to see if any of the books my one publisher are on the shelves, since they are partnered with a distribution company. Mostly they're carried in Borders, and this B&N hasn't had any...

...until now. There were at least 10 different Samhain Publishing titles ON THE SHELVES. I was giddy. My first book with them isn't in print until December, but now I know there is at least a chance that it will actually sit on a shelf in a real bookstore.

This is how a publisher is supposed to work.

JimmyD1318
04-12-2008, 06:15 PM
Frenchie and the Pipe will chastise him, to which he'll either acknowledge his guilt in questioning PA, or he'll start to dig deeper. I'm betting on the former.

I.e., he'll realize what he's done, and pull a Winston Smith.

We've all seen this movie before...

If he tries to dig any deeper over there he will be banned before you can say POPCORN BUNNY! But, yeah, we have seen this play out plenty of times. Oh well...time to pull out some from the secret stash and see what happens. POPCORN anyone? :popcorn:(MUNCH! MUNCH!)

Christine N.
04-12-2008, 07:19 PM
Is Dick back over there? I knew he had some health issues. Anyway, he won't chastise as much as remind him that he can't do any better, that all publishers do what PA does, and that none of them actually promote any of their authors.

Meanwhile, my book is being plugged by the distributor to the chain bookstore buyers. I should say my books. One is through distributor, one is being plugged through the small press deptartment. And when I call up my local bookstores and talk to them, they can look up the book and they can get it without problem, since neither of my publishers are banned from the store.

Jersey Chick
04-12-2008, 07:40 PM
I'm in the middle of final line edits for my Samhain book - and it's amazing what the FLE picked up. Some of my phrases are in Spanish, and my editor specifically requested a Spanish-speaking FLE (which was GREAT, because otherwise...) - I wonder how many PA authors can say that? Oh.. wait, I already know the answer.

To know that this book can (and hopefully will :D) be on bookstore shelves WITHOUT my having to go in and talk to someone is wonderful. To know I don't have to send copies all over the place for reviews is wonderful. To know it will be purchased (see how optimistic I am here? Totally glass-half-full :D) by people who DON'T know me - wonderful.

Again, how many PA authors can say that?

It's a shame, because they've wasted their time and their talents - for a glorious dollar...

kullervo
04-12-2008, 07:44 PM
His post is gone.

Not before Lane got in a dig:

Just tell Barnes & Noble youeve had a book publicate. You kow?

Lurkers, we don't ridicule writers here. But you're fair game over on PAMB.

kullervo
04-13-2008, 09:35 AM
Sigh...

I got the email 2 nights ago, my second manuscript has been accepted to be published!
I'm so ecstatic! Now "The Choices Witch Make Us" will sit side by side with "One of You".

In her trunk.

DaveKuzminski
04-13-2008, 09:22 PM
Well, if she received the email from PA accepting her second manuscript, it can only mean she self-purchased enough of her books and PA is trying to please a customer.

Speaking of Lane, I wonder how long PA will suffer his PAMB membership once his sales from Amazon dry up and he shows any indications of losing his faith in PA?

JimmyD1318
04-13-2008, 11:43 PM
Just tell Barnes & Noble youeve had a book publicate. You kow?

I never thought he would go for a low blow like that. I am very disappointed.

Marian Perera
04-14-2008, 12:49 AM
I never thought he would go for a low blow like that. I am very disappointed.

Not the first time Lane has pointed out typos on that board - on another occasion, the author told him the seemingly incorrect spelling was actually a play on words.

BarbJ
04-15-2008, 07:07 AM
There were at least 10 different Samhain Publishing titles ON THE SHELVES. I was giddy. My first book with them isn't in print until December, but now I know there is at least a chance that it will actually sit on a shelf in a real bookstore.

This is how a publisher is supposed to work.

Great comments about Samhain, Christine and Jersey. PA lurkers, please note the last sentence quoted. Samhain is working hard to become a better company and, in doing so, benefitting their authors. Samhain is small, but growing; I suspect they will become an influence in the publishing world.

PA is large, and sitting still. They have no need to change, because they're succeeding in their own business goals: Making profits by sucking in as many inexperienced would-be writers as possible. See the difference? Samhain: Growth = profits from readers which are spread to the writers to engender more growth and more profits to be spread, etc. PA: Money, as much as they can get, for PA only, collected directly from the wirters, not from readers.

Those writers with Samhain or Random House or any commercial house, large or small or even micro and nearly invisible, are viewed by the writing world as published authors. Those writers with PA are not; they are deemed vanity published by agents, publishers and writers. No matter what PA calls themselves or you, you are not a published writer and you do not have a published book. Your PA book, good or bad, is not a publishing credit.

There is nothing to be said to any lurker that has not been said, many times. You've heard from published and unpublished but striving writers, editors, agents, reviewers, publishers and just plain interested parties. My recommendation is to get off this board and visit other boards on this site; Writing Novels, Share Your Work, Grammar for Grasshoppers, and more that can help you hone your crarft.

Perhaps to the point where you're willing to leave the obscurity of PA and risk exposing yourself and your writing to the real world. Real writing can be a scary propsition. It can also be rewarding in a way PA, by its practises, can't grasp. Join us. We're not bad people. :Hug2:

Marian Perera
04-15-2008, 03:06 PM
Not the first or the last time... (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26495)

My children's book, <title>, is now available for sale at bn.com, target.com. amazon.com, publishamerica.com, borders.com.

However; it is a paperback picture book and is being sold retail for $19.95. The response I am getting is that it is too expensive for the quality and I tend to agree. I have been e-mailing PA about getting the book into a hard cover but am not getting any response from them.

Also, Barnes & Noble won't agree to let me do a book signing because the books are not returnable.

Is anybody else having these types of issues? Any suggestions on getting information from PA once the book is published?

The time after your book appears in print should be a happy and productive one for you, not one where you struggle to sell overpriced books with not even a response from your publisher. It's a shame.

Afinerosesheis
04-15-2008, 04:51 PM
It is sad how no one is answering her. When someone finally does, the post will go POOF. If she complains too much, SHE will go POOF!

And she probably doesn't even realize what is in store for her. I didn't at first. The activity on the PAMB should be the first clue.

xhouseboy
04-15-2008, 05:30 PM
Not the first time Lane has pointed out typos on that board - on another occasion, the author told him the seemingly incorrect spelling was actually a play on words.

There's a lot of that goes on over there.

Take this line for instance: 'The topic or post you requested does not exist.'

That's also a play on words, and should read: 'The topic or post you requested told it as it really is, exposing us as little more than scam artists. And we can't have that.'

Jersey Chick
04-15-2008, 05:42 PM
And the overpriced children's book questions has gone off into the sunset.

<sigh>

Marie Pacha
04-15-2008, 05:45 PM
Yesterday: http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&start=240

"Also, Amazon is probably betting companies like PA won't invest millions fighting them in court."

Uhh, I'm betting PA won't invest millions fighting Amazon in court, but they'd be perfectly willing to let their authors do so.

kullervo
04-15-2008, 07:14 PM
Not the first time Lane has pointed out typos on that board - on another occasion, the author told him the seemingly incorrect spelling was actually a play on words.

The next thing you know we'll be correcting each other on AW, and then where will we be? I know I could get banned for it within twenty minutes.

Seriously, the only forums I visit regularly that feature nearly-perfect spelling and grammar is the members-only board of the WGA. Why screenwriters should spell perfectly remains a mystery.

TwentyFour
04-15-2008, 08:27 PM
I found a post on PAMB long ago that stated the words were typed correctly but once they entered the post for posting they got "fixed" to appear wrong. It could be some inner workings from the board that jumble the words due to some function to block certain words.

Jersey Chick
04-15-2008, 08:57 PM
I wonder if it's the same as their spellcheck for "editing" their books. Would make sense for all those mistakes that get added to some PA books... ;)

Marian Perera
04-15-2008, 10:11 PM
The anti-Amazon thread... (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26321&start=240)

...grows ever longer. Many PA authors are hoping for legal action, while one of them quoted Richard Curtis saying that publishers should sell books directly to the consumer. Right. How many readers are going to call PA's non-toll-free number, pay for an overpriced book which (most likely) isn't available for a browse beforehand and then wait patiently for it to ship?

Another author said,

I guess this is where a literary agent weighs in. If you can get a good one, they will keep your writing in the marketplace regardless of the changing business climate. Where oh where art thou oh literary agent for the beginning author? We need you now.

Maybe PA can start up a company called RepresentAmerica, scamming serving the beginning author. I'm not sure why they feel a beginning author deserves to have a literary agent. Does a beginning graduate student publish their experiments in a peer-reviewed journal? Does a beginning ice skater compete at the National Championships?

You may need an agent, but why does an agent need you?

Finally Frenchie weighs in.

It is remarkable what this brou-ha-ha with Amazon has done http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif first we are honored by the censor weighing in and actually talking to us! http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Infocenter's not really talking, but I agree on the "censor" part. Hope that stays!

Marian Perera
04-16-2008, 04:03 AM
Ghostwriter Reviews has competition (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26498)

Hello
Everyone I just wanted to share with you Children's Lieterary Reviews

They give a fair, unbiased and professional review of your work by an experienced children's book author and reviewer.

Children's Literary Reviews specializes in quality, unbiased reviews of your children's books

I checked out the rates and services (http://litreviews.webs.com/ratesservices.htm) at Children's Literary Reviews. If a manuscript (double-spaced pdf file) or book is 18 pages or less, it's free. Anything over that comes with a price tag of either $5 or $10 (and of course they offer "affordable" fast track service). It's not much, but it's yet another expense for flattering five-star hype like the one review in their reviews section (http://litreviews.webs.com/reviews.htm) - for a PA book, of course.

...sure to be an instant classic that will be read for generations to come.
Edited to add : I was looking at the Children's Literary Reviews site, trying to find the credentials or even name of the author and reviewer. All I got was the email address "oliveton@<isp>". Then I glanced at the PAMB reviews forum. There are two threads about this website, and one was started by an author called "oliveton".

IceCreamEmpress
04-16-2008, 04:05 AM
Everyone I just wanted to share with you Children's Lieterary Reviews

Many a great truth was spoken in typo.

Jersey Chick
04-16-2008, 05:22 AM
An agent for the beginning author? Yep - I think now I've heard it all...

my head's going to explode. i just know it.

yanno, I haven't set my hair on fire in WEEKS. **pats self down** now where did I leave my lighter???

Sparhawk
04-16-2008, 06:27 AM
An agent for the beginning author? Yep - I think now I've heard it all...

my head's going to explode. i just know it.

yanno, I haven't set my hair on fire in WEEKS. **pats self down** now where did I leave my lighter???


<<Tosses Jersey Chick his skull and crossbones lighter>> "This one's on me.

cethklein
04-16-2008, 06:30 AM
Many a great truth was spoken in typo.

That's rich. We need to frame that typo.

kullervo
04-16-2008, 07:06 AM
A new author has publicity trouble:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26506

Hello,
Has anyone ever had problems with their local newspaper not wanting to write a review for their book?
My local newspaper states that they have a long written rule not to review the self published books. I told them that my book was not self published, but that did help. They never responded.

I guess they have more important things to write about. Who cares for an unknown author's book. Right?

And a reply, surprisingly not from a 100% booster:

I would love for this to be one of those' keep your chin up' messages, but the truth is I am experiencing the same thing. I've sent PS'r, media kits, and e-mails, personal phone calls, talked to the local bookstores, etc. Response,0, nada, nothing. Frustrating isn't it? I did do an interview with Jeff on blogtalkradio, that was fun. But sooner or later our break will come, remember, our contract is for 7 years. So, keep your chin up.

kullervo
04-16-2008, 07:57 AM
D.K. Christi wades in with an explanation that, while not true for legitimate publishers, certainly explains the PA problem:

Just because we publish a book, it doesn't mean our book is any good or of any interest to anyone besides us and our families (and not always family and friends either.)

PVish
04-17-2008, 03:50 AM
This is a sad PAMB thread. Another author shares her troubles:
Yes I have had the same trouble because the papers here in my city are big. I did have success with my first book with a small local community paper but only about me, not a review itself.

I had one paper tell me to send a copy, PA did and the paper never gave it a review.

I stopped trying that avenue and re-directed my efforts to reveiwers that can also help promote the book. I have two classrooms reading the book and they are doing reports on it when completed. Who better to give a review then the reader base itself!
I targeted a family magazine, A children's magazine and the childrens bulletin (national libraries) for my second book. Both accepted to reveiw and now just wating for the reviews to come in.

Stay positive and doors will open, they just may not be the traditional doors.

Oh, dear. Does this means classrooms will be flooded with requests for student reviews? (Except that a report is not a review.)

You'd think—with so many having troubles getting reviewed—that more PA authors would figure out sooner that PA isn't a commercial publisher. Or even a traditional publisher.

Marian Perera
04-17-2008, 03:57 AM
How bizarre. The thread I linked to earlier, the one about Children's Literary Reviews, has been deleted.

However, the thread started by someone who may be the, er, brains behind Children's Literary Reviews is still there (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26499).

The ways of Infocenter are mysterious.

PVish
04-17-2008, 04:08 AM
How bizarre. The thread I linked to earlier, the one about Children's Literary Reviews, has been deleted.

However, the thread started by someone who may be the, er, brains behind Children's Literary Reviews is still there (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26499).

The ways of Infocenter are mysterious.

As are those of the Children's Literary Review. In their review (http://litreviews.webs.com/reviews.htm) of a PA book, this is what the reviewer said (don't know if it was a $5 or $10 review):

"Author [***] shows true originality with these special characters she has brung to life. Any child would truly delight in the wonderful rhymes of Fred and his boisterous friends as they have adventure after adventure in the pond they call home. The Fabulous Adventures of Fred the Frog is sure to be an instant classic that will be read for generations to come."
-Children's Literary Reviews

And they even say it's available on Amazon!

Khazarkhum
04-17-2008, 07:39 AM
Now, now, PVish. Everyone knows it's brang, not brung.

Sheesh!

;)

Jersey Chick
04-17-2008, 07:46 AM
Words fail me on this one:

"A unique story that every mother and daughter can appreciate. An admirable tale of a loving mother, a precious daughter, and a special bond. A portrayed wonder that every beloved mother encounters. Illustrated with realistic pictures that positively describe the special bond within mother and child. To the Moon and Back is a remarkable heartfelt expression of love that any age can enjoy."

-Children's Literary Reviews

WTF??? What is the damn book about - I mean, aside frome the special mother/daughter bond thing. What. Is. It. About? :rant:

Dave.C.Robinson
04-17-2008, 07:52 AM
Words fail me on this one:



WTF??? What is the damn book about - I mean, aside frome the special mother/daughter bond thing. What. Is. It. About? :rant:

In order for the review to answer that question the reviewer would have to have read the book rather than simply gushed over it for money.

Richard White
04-17-2008, 07:53 AM
It's about a five dollar review.

For $10, they actually mention the books name twice

;)

Jersey Chick
04-17-2008, 07:58 AM
I couldn't resist these... http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26520

Similar. PA seems to be running ahead of the pack as the publishing/printing industry is changing to match their format - seems they had the right idea. A new company with a new business style upset a few people in the beginning. There are legions of happy PA authors these days. I'm one.

Yeah - we know - those lousy New York houses (and various smaller presses) are just soooo upset and soooo threatened... Hmmm... PA's business style? Let's accept anything and everything, use clipart covers, totally overprice it, and pressure our authors to buy as many (if not more than they can afford) - and beat them into a teeny, tiny hole if they dare ask a question.

Oy...

And this one, I went to her site and peeked. I kind of feel sorry for her, to be honest...

The road to getting published for me, was not as difficult as it has been for those that I have read of taking years to get published. I took a two-year writing course, and have never felt the need for an agent. I sent my first book, <Title Redacted>, to three publishers before PA, one of whom sent me a cruel reply. I sent my second book, XX XXXXX to one publisher, PA, and got published. I had completed both novels, and am thrilled to be a published author. I feel a need to complete the book before I send my query; does everyone do this, or is it just me? I have completed my third book, and would like to know if I need to do a book proposal to send to PA,or just a query? <snipped>

I would like to know what she considered a cruel reply? Not to be snarky, but I'd be surprised (if it was subbed to a true publisher) if she received anything beyond a form letter.

Gravity
04-17-2008, 08:05 AM
You know, this is hard thing for me to say (I'm normally a very kindhearted man; just ask my family), but I'm starting to lose any sympathy for the new crop of PAvidians. Back six or seven years ago, it was easy to get pulled in. But now, dang. All a person has to do is google PA, and the fourth entry down is where the truth comes out. Good God above. Can people really, truly be that ignorant these days? I mean, really?

Afinerosesheis
04-17-2008, 08:11 AM
You know, this is hard thing for me to say (I'm normally a very kindhearted man; just ask my family), but I'm starting to lose any sympathy for the new crop of PAvidians. Back six or seven years ago, it was easy to get pulled in. But now, dang. All a person has to do is google PA, and the fourth entry down is where the truth comes out. Good God above. Can people really, truly be that ignorant these days? I mean, really?

I don't know if it is so much "ignorance". All writers (good or poor) have hopes and dreams. They choose denial as a safe haven in order to make those dreams come true. It may sound lame, but I think that is the reality of it.

Afinerosesheis
04-17-2008, 08:25 AM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26511



"the error is on your end"

ResearchGuy
04-17-2008, 09:54 AM
Now, now, PVish. Everyone knows it's brang, not brung.

Sheesh!

;)
Bring, brang, have brung.

I bring squirrel fer supper when I find it by the road.
I ran over a squirrel and then brang it home fer Ma to cook up.
That squirrel war so tasty that I have brung some leftovers to the shop fer lunch.

Glad I could clear that up for you.

--Ken

Brenda Hill
04-17-2008, 12:57 PM
Now everyone, let's all sing:

Bring Brang! The witch is dead. Bring Brang! The wicked witch is dead . . .

Khazarkhum
04-17-2008, 01:27 PM
Bring, brang, have brung.

I bring squirrel fer supper when I find it by the road.
I ran over a squirrel and then brang it home fer Ma to cook up.
That squirrel war so tasty that I have brung some leftovers to the shop fer lunch.

Glad I could clear that up for you.

--Ken

No, the last sentence should read "I brung me some leftovers...", not "have brung some leftovers..." You can't forget the personal pronoun!

Afinerosesheis
04-17-2008, 04:57 PM
I have received word that another PA author has been released from their contract and rights returned. They now have a new publisher which will take over the book. I am so happy for them!

cethklein
04-17-2008, 05:21 PM
I couldn't resist these... http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26520



Yeah - we know - those lousy New York houses (and various smaller presses) are just soooo upset and soooo threatened... Hmmm... PA's business style? Let's accept anything and everything, use clipart covers, totally overprice it, and pressure our authors to buy as many (if not more than they can afford) - and beat them into a teeny, tiny hole if they dare ask a question.

Oy...

And this one, I went to her site and peeked. I kind of feel sorry for her, to be honest...



I would like to know what she considered a cruel reply? Not to be snarky, but I'd be surprised (if it was subbed to a true publisher) if she received anything beyond a form letter.

To add to Jersey Chick's post, this humorous little ditty:

Hey thats my middle name! I read on this message board that if you have a second novel completed, you just send it in like you did the first. I don't think you need to query them. So, I hope this helps.

News flash pal, you don't have to query anyway. Just send a manuscript.

I want to say though, I for do NOT feel sorry for these people, not anymore. As Gravity said, there is too much information about PA out there. These people are denial, I'll give them that. But they weren't in denial at first when they were researching publishers. I also wonder how many of these posters on PAMB were palnted on the forums by PA (or are PA staff).

cethklein
04-17-2008, 05:47 PM
You know what would be really funny (and sad)? If the staff at PA are laughing at the people on PAMB as much as we are. It brings to light a question I've thought about a lot, do you think the people running PA know they are a scam or do you think they genuinely believe they're doing this right?

Jersey Chick
04-17-2008, 06:11 PM
PA knows.

As for feeling sorry - yes, one can google and find out all the negative - but I get the feeling that some of them are so desperate, have received so many rejections, that the acceptance from PA overjoys them. That someone's offered validation and promises to make that dream come true - well, I guess it's easy to write off the negative.

Some of the snippets I've read at different PA author sites are truly dreadful - I'd be surprised if some of the "cruel" rejections aren't just form letters. Some aren't awful, but need work. Some are okay - which makes me wonder why the author settled. Maybe they didn't know any better. Maybe they knew someone who is a happily "published" PA author.

Some are too green to know any better - and they rely on the mantra "I didn't pay to be published" and when they get to the PAMB, and are basically fed the nonsense that "Bashers" are "jealous", or are "wannabe probably rejected by PA", it only reinforces what they so desperately want to believe.

And then there is the case of the Golden Word Syndrome. Why submit your masterpiece to a publisher who will edit and suggest changes? The nerve of those people, trying to change what I've written. PA won't do that. Of course, that's because they don't read any of it, aside from checking for those forbidden words.

And let's not forget that sense of entitlement. I wrote, therfore I should be published. It doesn't matter if the prose is so purple it gives you a rash, or that the POV shifts every third word, or the massive amounts of misspellings. I wrote it, it deserves to be published.

DaveKuzminski
04-17-2008, 06:21 PM
While on another forum, several PA authors made it clear that they didn't consider anyone else published if they hadn't been accepted in the Amazon short story program and hadn't been published by PA. Talk about elitism in reverse, that could be why some writers get trapped by PA. They're desperate to keep pace in status with another writer they know and prove they're equal in ability so they submit to the same places.

cethklein
04-17-2008, 06:32 PM
I can say one thing with complete certainty: I would sooner go ten years with nothing but rejections and would still never so much as THINK of sending something to PA.

But you're right, maybe they are doing it to make themselves feel better.

And the Amazon short-story contest thing, yeah that's pretty pathetic that they would use that and PA as the only benchmarks to determine who is a legitimate writer.

Maybe these people need to be "deprogrammed"..

ResearchGuy
04-17-2008, 07:41 PM
No, the last sentence should read "I brung me some leftovers...", not "have brung some leftovers..." You can't forget the personal pronoun!
Well, that would be so if I had not had in mind that the speaker intended to share the morsels with his workmates.

Them's some good eatins, ya know.

So: ". . . brung the boys in the shop some leftovers fer lunch."

I appreciate your keen eye for grammatical details, and, I grant you, the intended diner was not clear, so your inference is entirely reasonable.

--Ken

Jersey Chick
04-17-2008, 07:44 PM
Ya'll are killin' me -

CatSlave
04-17-2008, 07:52 PM
Ya'll are killin' me -
That should be all y'all (plural of y'all). :D

tlblack
04-17-2008, 08:11 PM
Ain't nuthin rong wit tawking Suthen. Tha thang to remember is not to rite it that way and then think that anyone would read it, or that anyone besides PA or some other vanity press would be willing to publish it, as is, with no editing whatsoever.

cethklein
04-17-2008, 08:23 PM
Ain't nuthin rong wit tawking Suthen. Tha thang to remember is not to rite it that way and then think that anyone would read it, or that anyone besides PA or some other vanity press would be willing to publish it, as is, with no editing whatsoever.

I didn't see the word "reckon" anywhere in there. It loses some authenticity without it :tongue

tlblack
04-17-2008, 08:28 PM
Ah reckon u cud hav a point thar, but not ever Suthen sentance starts or ends wit "Ah reckon." Now imagine an entire ms full of southern speak at say... 150 pages with a price tag of $19.95.

Gravity
04-17-2008, 08:30 PM
Perhaps I should temper my comment above, with this caveat: some people cannot use Google. I give you my own dad as an example. He's eighty-two years old, has Parkinson's, and is fairly new to the world of computers (as in two years ago).

To a degree, he knows how to use email to stay in contact with his friends, and to share jokes. And that's about it. Although he's very intelligent (he's a retired regional VP of a large company) he wouldn't have any more idea of how to research a company online than he could translate Sanskrit.

For a while now he's toyed with the idea of writing his war memoirs (he fought a very tough campaign in the Pacific in WWII), so if I hadn't told him about PA, I could very well see him getting pulled in.

Sparhawk
04-17-2008, 09:05 PM
It's okay to get duped; we all are on the receiving end once in awhile. What bothers me the most is the 'post duped' realization. Here's where one's personal motivation comes into play.

One can play the pretend RPG and be a blind, rabid PAvidian Poodle or one can face the hard reality and truth of being published by PA. It is my opinion that the serious writer is the one who attempts to get his/her rights back and move forward from the mistake and learn form the error.

The bitter writer is one who knows they're trapped; denies the fact and abuses anyone who dares say anything contradictory to the PAvidian paradigm (those Pavidians usually do a fly be here). These are the writers who are simply content with pretending to be authors and aspire to nothng more than Publish America. For those, I have no sympathy.

I feel bad for the writer who, in ignorance, submits to PA and gets burned. I know this is a minority, and most of those PA authors wind up here (me included). As was mentioned above, there is so much information on Publish America, now, that it's difficult to imagine somebody still getting blindsided. I also agree that there's a degree of desperation after multiple rejections.

If PAvidians want to play Author: The RPG I'm quite happy for them. They can promote thier works on vanity radio and raid bookstores from sea to shining sea and across the fruited plain like Jehova's Witnesses on a fine Spring day pillaging neighborhoods of unsuspecting people. I just feel bad for those who are trapped and may actually have a decent book being held hostage.

cethklein
04-17-2008, 09:26 PM
Exactly. These people keep coming back for more after being duped. That's the issue. Maybe there is denial there, in fact I know there is some. But there is a degree of sheer stupidity too. Like the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

Marian Perera
04-17-2008, 10:17 PM
Then there are the writers who know PA is a scam, but who try to sell their books anyway. I read a really sad blog post (http://zanadib.blogspot.com) by a PA author on this topic.

I made a mistake with signing with PA, I am not scared to admit that. But I dont think that people shouldn't buy my book just because I got published with a bad company. I have met a lot of authors that are published with PA but they are very talented! (Check out my website for them!) So for all you readers out there, take a risk and buy a book that you dont recognize the author. And post a comment on this post and tell me what you think. Tell me if it was worth the risk!

She doesn't want to give up on her book, and I admire that. But on the other hand, I'm not going to shell out sight unseen for overpriced books that are completely unscreened for quality.

Monkey
04-17-2008, 10:19 PM
I got duped not long ago.

I really didn't know how to do proper research online. I googled...but my googling was a very surface thing. I didn't know about P&E or other bewares sites, and I didn't know about Absolute Write. Honestly, if Absolute Write showed up in my search, I probably ignored it once I realized that it wasn't an "official" site, but "just" a messageboard.

Once I had already signed the contract, I found P&E. P&E warned against the publisher. I wrote to ask why and was directed here. I thought that the people here were working with outdated info; after all, I had spoken directly to the company and had been told differently. Surely the actual company involved had the most complete, accurate, up-to-date info?

I'm suprised I didn't drown in my own naievety. And yeah, I misspelled that. Anyone gonna call me on it? :D

It took me over a year to admit that I was duped. It took me over a year to really understand that if a book can't make it with a real press, I don't want my name on the cover.

But I decided that because I really want to be a professional writer. This wasn't my only manuscript; it wasn't even my only *five* manuscripts. My goal is to improve, not just to see my name in print. Not everyone has such ambitious goals.

If I had just wanted my name in print, I would have stayed with the scam. I would have even -possibly - defended that scam, saying that it provided its services well, even if those services weren't the same as what some other companies provided. I think that that's where a lot of the PA authors are. I don't feel sorry for them; they are happy enough with what they got. I do feel sorry for those who really want to be serious writers, though. Turning away from a scam is a very hard thing to do.

I completely trashed every manuscript I had submitted to the scam, deciding to start over now that I have more experience and improved skill. That was years of work down the drain.

Marian Perera
04-18-2008, 04:03 AM
Bookstore owner and PA books (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26518)

I am on Mackinac Island where there are a lot of shops for tourists. The Dynamic Great Lakes is a perfect book for this sort of shop.

I chatted with the shop owner for a while. Don't know whether he will order. The owner of the best bookstore on the island told me that she cannot make any money on PA books, and that was that.

I wish PA would give a better discount to retail since Baker and Taylor and Ingram give such a short discount now.

TwentyFour
04-18-2008, 05:57 AM
The guy who had the contraversial book at PA has no website now. Every site he listed comes up as error or just deleted or the site has deleted it. How much you want to bet that some of his good buddies at PA has reported his site to the web hosts?

TwentyFour
04-18-2008, 06:02 AM
Ah, I finally found a link that worked.

Scribhneoir
04-18-2008, 09:01 AM
You know, this is hard thing for me to say (I'm normally a very kindhearted man; just ask my family), but I'm starting to lose any sympathy for the new crop of PAvidians. Back six or seven years ago, it was easy to get pulled in. But now, dang. All a person has to do is google PA, and the fourth entry down is where the truth comes out. Good God above. Can people really, truly be that ignorant these days? I mean, really?

I think it's more a refusal to face facts than true ignorance. Like this fellow here:

After years of dealing with agents who probably didn't take a look at my query letter, but still encouraged me to "submit to more suitable agents", I happened to stumble upon Publish America. And I'm glad that I did. I know what some have posted on the net about PA, but I just don't believe it.

When he does come to believe it, I, for one, won't be sympathizing. He saw the warnings and chose his fate.

Khazarkhum
04-18-2008, 01:47 PM
I wish PublishAmerica would explain this on their web site as it comes up with every new author. 1) Publishing a book today does not mean anybody wants to read it. Anyone can publish a book and do on average of 1000 new books every day.

From the little thread Queen of Swords referenced, we get this old anthem.

1000/day sounds high to me. If it takes into account things like vanity, self pubs & epubs, maybe. And of course it ignores corporate manuals, textbooks & the like.

Any idea of the real number of fiction/nf published? I've heard as high as 200,000 annually, but again that is bound to include everything bound. (lousy pun.)

Khazarkhum
04-18-2008, 01:52 PM
Well, that would be so if I had not had in mind that the speaker intended to share the morsels with his workmates.

Them's some good eatins, ya know.

So: ". . . brung the boys in the shop some leftovers fer lunch."

I appreciate your keen eye for grammatical details, and, I grant you, the intended diner was not clear, so your inference is entirely reasonable.

--Ken

While I applaud your interest in the fine details of grammatical usage, I am appalled that you have missed the most critical part of a true Southern speaker's tongue: the honorific.

Your Honor, yessir, yes ma'am are vital, irreplaceable parts of any true Southern paragraph. Thus, "Yessir, I done brung the boys some leftovers" is the proper, formal version; while y'all & all y'all is the familiar.
So "I done brung all y'all some leftovers" is indicative of the informal vernacular as it lacks the formalizing presence of Yessir.

JimmyD1318
04-18-2008, 06:15 PM
All of y'all are making me want some of that there:popcorn: POPCORN:popcorn: of mine! Yessir indeed!:popcorn:(God! That hurt to do that, and I'm from the South!)

Jersey Chick
04-18-2008, 06:18 PM
Doncha mean them thar popcorns???

Up here, we'd say, "Get me some o' dat friggin' popcorn, beeyotch!"

you gotta problem with dat? ;)

JulieB
04-18-2008, 07:08 PM
In my part of Texas (we're big enough to have regional dialects, y'all) it's: "I done got me some of that popcorn. Y'all want some?" Because our region is on the divide between east and west Texas, it's also permissible to say, "that thar popcorn."

Now down the road a piece at Southfork they got ranch hands from all over the country, and some of 'em even talk proper English!

(Yes, there really is a Southfork Ranch.)

Jersey Chick
04-18-2008, 07:11 PM
Proper English? What's dat?

Ahh... fuggeddaboutit!

ResearchGuy
04-18-2008, 07:49 PM
While I applaud your interest in the fine details of grammatical usage, I am appalled that you have missed the most critical part of a true Southern speaker's tongue: the honorific.
. . .
I stand in slack-jawed amazement at your profound grasp of these essential issues, and generous willingness to share. Yessir, indeed I do.

--Ken

Jersey Chick
04-18-2008, 07:58 PM
All y'all are makin' mah head go a-spinnin' and my heart go a-pitter-pat...

:D

PVish
04-18-2008, 08:42 PM
OK, this (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26553) explains a lot:

One subject we were discussing was the changing landscape of writing/publishing. I have some thoughts on it. The literary world looks long and hard at the writer seeking to be published. The status quo world of writing is that one is published because one deserves to be, but it more a rule of the old school, I think because in a global marketplace, with electronics it is a frantic information highway of trade and remaining organized, is one hard task which I see as a plus with our publisher publish america, because their is so much to become choatic, and publish america in collaboration with their authors, has found a way to get relly good litirature into the hands of readers by working together on editing and allowing for a large number of authors to have a voice requries cooperation in getting from first time authors corrections, process etc, Publish America has first published authors, with excellent stories, and published prestigous authors, who can teach us a lot, just by reading their work.

Pass the lighter, Jerz!

JimmyD1318
04-18-2008, 08:46 PM
OK, this (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26553) explains a lot:



Pass the lighter, Jerz!


After reading what you posted...I'm next in line after you.

cethklein
04-18-2008, 09:00 PM
I wonder who the "prestigious authors" PA published are. I assume Ms. Tabitha Robin, the one with the website I linked to earlier maybe?

ResearchGuy
04-18-2008, 09:05 PM
I wonder who the "prestigious authors" PA published are. I assume Ms. Tabitha Robin, the one with the website I linked to earlier maybe?
No no, "prestigous authors" -- something entirely different. They are the ones who write "choatic, relly good litirature."

Sheesh, ya couldn't make this stuff up.

--Ken

Gravity
04-18-2008, 09:07 PM
OK, this (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26553) explains a lot:



Pass the lighter, Jerz!

Caramba, what a sentence. Verbose and nonsensical at the same time. I think she's channeling Victor Hugo by way of Eddie Haskell.

kullervo
04-18-2008, 09:24 PM
Publishing writers who deserve to be published is old school? How about that hoary old notion that only the best athletes should compete in the Olympic Games? Heck, why should only the teams with the best records in a given year be allowed to play in the Super Bowl? That hardly seems fair. Maybe we should flip coins instead? Or have sixteen Super Bowls so everyone can play?

Come on, PA authors. You want to be published for the same reason every writer wants to be published: because it is a difficult thing to achieve. Because it is an admired accomplishment in our society. Would you be that runner who "won" the New York Marathon by hopping on the subway? And it's not even the case that being published by PA is admired or even recognized in the publishing world. Everyone knows it's not a matter of the quality of your writing (which may be superlative or may be horrible) but of whether your check cleared. Would you want your family and friends to Google "PublishAmerica?"

Remember Kennedy's 1962 speech about the Apollo missions:

"...We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept..."

cethklein
04-18-2008, 10:14 PM
Ok I have found my new fabvorite quote in the Amazon thread and it isn't even that far in. Can't beleive I missed it before:

Well...I must say, this is just another notch in the old gun to kill off PA and its authors, but heck, they don't know us...We are Publish America and we will walk right up and spit in their eye, so to speak.
I am very disappointed in Amazon. I thought they had character, but it seems like the strong hold tatics have entered the publishing world big time. Legally, I wonder if Amazon has stepped over the line? Too me, this is a form of blackmail. I just hope the other bookstores will not follow suit. I never knew that the publishing business could be so brutal. Publish America gave me, an unknown writer, a chance and for that they will always have my undying support. Way to go, Publish America.

you tell em' girl!

I also wrote Amazon. Greed is a terrible thing. An angry author is nobody to mess with.
Ron

You too Gomer.

I do hope there will not be an issue collecting on royalties on books sold before this fiasco with Amazon.

If you only knew..........

There have been some good comments here. Desert Dan has put some of my thoughts into words, thank you. PA will do what they think is best, it will be interesting how this all plays out.

You bet they will do what they think is best......for PA.

And this one tickled me:

I stand with PA. Why, because they have done everything that they stated in their contract to me. I agreed and so it goes. Without PA, I would not have had opportunities with other venues, like The Amazon Shorts Program.

One thing, Amazon's decision pushed me to do is query,query,query...agents. I have half of what I need to wall paper a small bathroom with rejection letters.

Am I frustrated...no, and I intend to use PA again...if they'll have me.

Robert A Meacham

Oh no! God forbid you actually had to QUERY, especially to REAL agents! The horror!

Sparhawk
04-18-2008, 10:22 PM
OK, this (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26553) explains a lot:



Pass the lighter, Jerz!

Wow !!!!! That's just... words escape me. :Shrug:

ResearchGuy
04-18-2008, 10:24 PM
Ok I have found my new favorite quote in the Amazon thread and it isn't even that far in. . . .

they have done everything that they stated in their contract to me.
I have heard THAT line many a time from local PA authors. One of them, though, was unusually reserved about PA the last time I saw her, which was not long after the latest royalty report from PA. Maybe that was finally an eye opener, when PA's obfuscations no longer worked on her and she had to accept that sales were in single digits. (The same person keeps insisting that her PA books are returnable, refusing to believe me that in reality it is not so because of the 5 percent discount/10 percent restocking fee.)

--Ken

Christine N.
04-18-2008, 10:56 PM
I was thinking just last night about that axiom "deserves to be published". It's not about deserving or not. It's about what's READY to be published. Books that receive a lot of rejection notes might just not be ready. Some books are NEVER ready.

Don't think publication is some right, or even a privilege; it's about the readiness of the manuscript to be read by the public at large. If yours isn't ready, make it ready. If you can't make it ready, start something new and keep at it until that one is ready.

If you shove a pianist out on stage before she's ready to play, she's going to be embarrassed. Or an artist, or a surgeon, or a lawyer. Writing is the same thing, isn't it?

I think if we started promoting this message, so many writers could avoid this sense of entitlement that many of the PA authors seem to propegate.

Sparhawk
04-18-2008, 11:40 PM
I was thinking just last night about that axiom "deserves to be published". It's not about deserving or not. It's about what's READY to be published. Books that receive a lot of rejection notes might just not be ready. Some books are NEVER ready.

Don't think publication is some right, or even a privilege; it's about the readiness of the manuscript to be read by the public at large. If yours isn't ready, make it ready. If you can't make it ready, start something new and keep at it until that one is ready.

If you shove a pianist out on stage before she's ready to play, she's going to be embarrassed. Or an artist, or a surgeon, or a lawyer. Writing is the same thing, isn't it?

I think if we started promoting this message, so many writers could avoid this sense of entitlement that many of the PA authors seem to propegate.

Amen, Christine.

The biggest misconception that PA pushes it that every book "Deserves" to be published. Thier tagline; "We're going to give your book the chance it deserves." Not every book deserves a chance, if the manuscript is poorly crafted and laiden with errors. The first honest critique one of my manuscripts recevied was from Behler Publishing. I was crestfallen after reading the e-mail. But, after going back and re-eading the mail and actually matching the comments against my work I had to agree with nearly every criticism. At that point I was kind of embarassed that I'd submitted such a shoddy piece of 'poo'. It took several months of WORK and more honest feedback from peers to correct all the issues and then two final edits before the book was ready for the reading public.

Publishinig is a business, and business exist to make income in the form of profit. Publisher are not "Not for Profit" charties. They sell manuscripts to the reading public and make money doing it. They want the best product to compete in the open market. The quality of the story is what sells. A publisher marketing excellent books will succeed. A publisher marketing "poo" will not.

This is why PA will never attempt to become a legitimate publisher. There is far too much "poo" in thier bookstore. If they were serious about editing for grammar and content they'd never have a stable of 30,000 authors. The PA way, as stated so often, is sell a little volume to many via the family and friends plan. By selling a few books to many people the company manages to generate revenue. Quality isn't required for this business model only quantity. Which is exactly why PA has the fastrack editing, the clip art covers et al. PA methodology is based on moving a large volume of books, BUT their source is NOT the reading, book buying public, it's their own flock of authors.

I've asked this before, and Willem and Larry, if you're reading this feel free to jump in.

Name one PA Author out of 30,000 who have sold more than 5,000 copies WITHOUT self purchases.

Name one PA Author whose book is carried chain wide by any bookstore across the fuited plain; or carried regionally or in more than ten stores in a chain.

Name on PA Author that made a NYT Best Seller list.

Name on PA Author that's been in a top 100 or even 500 or top 5,000 book seller.

Out of 30,000 supposed "Happy Authors" you'd expect at leat one PAvidian to be a success. 1/30,000 = 0.0000333333 or three one thousandths of a percent. Is that too unreasonable a success rate to expect for a publisher? A .003333 percent success rate; PA can't even claim this as a statistic.

How can any rational thinking person consider Publish America to be legit? Maybe they'll post here and correct all our misconceptions and refute these statistics, but I highly doubt it.

DaveKuzminski
04-19-2008, 12:47 AM
The biggest misconception that PA pushes it that every book "Deserves" to be published. Thier tagline; "We're going to give your book the chance it deserves."

When you think about it, PA is being perversely honest. They're stating your book isn't worth anything in the real market because they're giving it no chance to actually get out on bookstore shelves or in retail stores or airports or any of the other physical places where books are sold to the actual reading public.

Jersey Chick
04-19-2008, 12:48 AM
Wow - I go out for a few hours and come back to some of the funniest shite I've read all day... And luckily, I have a HUGE box of brand new shiny lighters!

Who wants one? I've got green... and red... and here's a nice gold one... and this one has the American flag on it... and this one...

:D

Rambling
04-19-2008, 04:09 AM
I know we've read this type of quote before, but for some reason it really struck me this time:
I stand with PA. Why, because they have done everything that they stated in their contract to me. The more I think about it, the more absurd it sounds. Not that the poster believes it to be true, but that they're saying it at all. I mean, translate it into a different context:

I support my local Chinese restaurant. Why, because the food is made from the ingredients specified in the menu.I always buy Philips. Why, because the product you get is one quoted on the box.See? It's not exactly a ringing endorsement from an overjoyed customer. By writing this, the poster is implying that they don't (or no longer) expect PA to fulfill the *bare minimum of its legally mandated obligations* as a matter of course. I'm sure they meant it as a positive statement, but it actually gives away how disillusioned they are.

cethklein
04-19-2008, 07:33 PM
Found another good one:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26542

My deepest thanks to PA again for the acceptance and publishing of my fourth book with them. I am very excited about it and think they did a wonderful job. The title is "The Truth Is In The Light." I want to especially thank the following people:

Jennifer Brenneman, Acquisitions Editor who has worked with me before on other books; Jeannette Gartrell in Pre-Publishing; Sandra Baker in the Text Production Department; Jenna in Editing; Stacy in Cover Design ( which was beautiful by the way ); Shawn Street who I have worked with in Public Relations before on my books and he is great; and the sweet woman in the ordering department who I talked with telling her I had a cousin by the same name which was Una, and I'm sorry I didn't get the last names of some of these great people. To each and everyone of these people, I thank you so much and think you are wonderful. If I left anyone else out I am sincerely, sorry.


It's almost like an Oscar acceptance speech (you know except the award here is...well....nothing.) Yes, part of me (and likely most everyone else) wants to smack them and ask "Are you BLIND?" or "Was your mother standing up when she gave birth to you?"

However, I'm starting to question the actual mental state of some of these people. It's like they've been so beaten down by rejection letters that they've completely lost any form of willpower. It is sad because I think people like the one quoted here are genuinely believing that this is how it works. It makes PA that worse for exploiting people with such an obviously low self esteem. Reading that forum is painful especially knowing that these are actual people buying into all this. As someone who has studied cults, i can't help but see similarities here. Some groups brainwash but others use a different tactic, they exploit people with weak self esteems. I am not a psychologist by any stretch but i think it's fair to say that PA IS doing this, I mean, exploiting these people. I want to believe that least some of these people aren't just idiots, but actually have some sense but jsut lost faith in the publishing industry after so many rejections. You see that as a lot of them SAY it "I worked so hard and was rejected so many times, then I found PublishAmerica."

Anyone ever stop and wonder if there might actually be some good books published with PA that got stuck there because the author gave up on normal publishing? It's kind of sad if it's true.

Gravity
04-19-2008, 07:43 PM
With 30,000 writers under contract, I'd say there has to be some percentage of books that would have accepted by a commercial house. We'll never know, though. Sadder, neither will the writers.

ResearchGuy
04-19-2008, 07:53 PM
. . .
Anyone ever stop and wonder if there might actually be some good books published with PA that got stuck there because the author gave up on normal publishing? It's kind of sad if it's true.
Don't have to wonder. I know of some. BUT that does not mean that the books were necessarily commercially publishable no matter how much effort might have gone into pursuing that option. A book can be good, even very good, but not marketable as a practical matter (too hard to pigeonhole), or with too small and inaccessible an audience to be feasible even for a small press. (William Holden's Dhow of the Monsoon comes to mind.)

I also know of one extraordinary book that narrowly dodged PA thanks to my timely, lucky intervention, and that found a home with a very small publisher. I myself (now a micro-publisher) am publishing a new edition of a book the PA contract for which was canceled at author's request after she saw her two sample copies. (I've invested months in editing and other work on that one. If I had to live off profits from a book like that I would starve, despite its quality and probable niche regional appeal.)

--Ken

PVish
04-19-2008, 08:19 PM
Another sad post:

On one thread (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26564) this new author really seems to be trying:
I have been asked just recently to put together a Marketing Plan for Barnes & Noble. They weren't specific, so I did some research on the internet and found some examples. However, they were geared more towards starting a small business, etc.

I was hoping that someone might have already gone down this road and has a sample Marketing Plan written up that they don't mind sharing with us newly published authors.

I'll bet it won't be long until there's a plug for The Purple Snowflake.

. . . and on another thread (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26518), she comments:

Perhaps putting together a Marketing Plan might help. If we look professional we might be taken seriously.

I am working on one now, but. . . . I have no clue if it's what is required.

If anyone does have a Marketing Plan already written, perhaps posting a sample of it here would help us newbies.

What's so sad is she hasn't yet realized that she can't successfully market what isn't readily available. If PA makes it difficult for anyone other than authors to get the books, all the marketing in the world won't help.

Lurkers: All those successful books you hear about—the publisher has a catalogue—and a distributor to get them onto shelves. And a publicity department. And ARCs sent to reviewers ahead of publication.

"Looking professional" doesn't hurt, but being professional is even better.

Marian Perera
04-19-2008, 08:44 PM
Will this stay? (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26565)

The title is : INFORCENTER : BOOK SELLING PAGE DOESN'T SHOW UP ?

Inforcenter..... http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

I put on my web site and every e mail
plus other sites the following , sometimes it shows up other
times it doesn't ? I want people to be able to go directly to my
book page and buy it..." HELP , THANK YOU."

The only person PA wants buying your book is yourself.

TwentyFour
04-19-2008, 08:56 PM
The topic or post you requested does not exist

Marian Perera
04-19-2008, 09:04 PM
The topic or post you requested does not exist

Wow. It was killed just minutes after I saw it. Spooky.

The author is one of the PA loyalists, too.

PVish
04-19-2008, 11:10 PM
I'll bet it won't be long until there's a plug for The Purple Snowflake.

Gosh, it took a whole three hours (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26564) for the Purple Snowflake to appear!

JimmyD1318
04-19-2008, 11:12 PM
Gosh, it took a whole three hours (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26564) for the Purple Snowflake to appear!

You knew it was going to show up sooner or later.

PVish
04-20-2008, 01:52 AM
I must ask this question... Show of hands please... how many of you would like to do reviews- oh, and not get paid for your time and effort??? Come on now, out of everyone who posts on this board, there has to be at least one???

Raising my hand here. I just had one published on the book review page of last Sunday's paper (medium-size city). No pay, but a by-line.

Also, I post reviews (or at least opinion about certain books that I've either loved or hated) on my blog. Done a couple in the last week.

Would I like to contribute content to someone else's site for free? Nope, got enough to do.

Marian Perera
04-20-2008, 01:58 AM
I must ask this question... Show of hands please... how many of you would like to do reviews- oh, and not get paid for your time and effort??? Come on now, out of everyone who posts on this board, there has to be at least one???

I posted a review on my blog last week, and have reviews on my website. No one paid me for my time, and I was entirely honest about what worked or what didn't work with the books. No pay - I just like writing those.

Christine N.
04-20-2008, 02:39 AM
I must ask this question... Show of hands please... how many of you would like to do reviews- oh, and not get paid for your time and effort??? Come on now, out of everyone who posts on this board, there has to be at least one???

I used to. I also reviewed for Lighthouse for a time. I still review for Tales of the Talisman, a quarterly print spec. fic. magazine. They didn't use to pay, but now they are doing better, so I do get paid. BY THE MAGAZINE. I choose the books I review, not them, and they give me a small amount of money. I never take money from the author to review, because then it could be viewed as biased. I also do some book reviews on a blog I have for that purpose, simply because I read more books than get reviews in the magazine. No pay, just for me.

If you go back to what I said a few pages ago - it's not that some books don't deserve to be published, but they're just not READY to be published. Publishing is not for the author's ego any more than reviews are. Publication is to put the book out to the public at large, to SELL the book, and reviews are to let READERS know about a book.

Authors who just want ego stroking don't belong in publishing.

Jersey Chick
04-20-2008, 02:44 AM
You may not like a book I read and like, and visa-versa. The reviews are from the reader's perspective. I have one teacher in the mix, but we're all just people and capable of errors.
Of course a review is one person's opinion. It's simply that the opinion holds a bit less validity when an author has paid for a review. And doing a feel-good review helps no one at all.

I didn't start the review site to be famous, or to dupe anyone. I've noticed a few reviews posted to this site from PA authors... why is it just theirs? If someone reads one of those PA books and thinks it's decent, what's the problem? It isn't a problem, if there isn't any hint of bias. If a PA book receives a 5-star review, from a respectable review site (again, no slur intended here), and no money has changed hands - there is no problem. When the reveiwer is another PA author (as it's no secret they tend to give each other rave reviews - whether deserved or not), or money has changed hands - I wonder about the validity. When there is no summary of the plot, but merely a mishmosh of superlatives, I wonder. I don't want to read a review that is nothing but cliches about being an instant classic - yet when I finish reading the review, I don't even know the basis of the plot.

The way it comes across to me is that authors are being judged by their publishers. Truthfully, I'm very disappointed in the track this site has taken. Not entirely true - we may question their decision to go with PA, and definitely some of the logic, and the horrid advice that is given. But there is also the point that not every PA book is trash - which is really what makes me angry - so many good books probably get lost as well. Never mind the way PA treats their authors - especially those who dare question anything.

I do not publish, read or review, pornography. If you don't believe it's trash, then why bring it up?

It would depend on what you consider porn - it's different things to different people. Some consider erotic romance porn, some don't.

Mel
04-20-2008, 02:48 AM
I've noticed a few reviews posted to this site from PA authors... why is it just theirs?

If you're referring to this thread, well, it is about PA. If reviews from PA authors appear somewhere else in the Cooler I haven't seen them.

If someone reads one of those PA books and thinks it's decent, what's the problem?

There's not a thing wrong if someone thinks it's decent. What's wrong, when I look at the reviews over there they are PA authors doing reviews for each other and all I see is ego stroking. As I stated before, they don't really tell the reader much about the book. Lots of exclamation points and saying you have to read this. Umm, no, I don't and won't. I want to know more, enough to make me want to read it, not a bunch of words that make the author feel good.

Not long ago there was one person who did do honest reviews over there and he got reamed for it. Don't know if he still posts since I haven't checked.


The way it comes across to me is that authors are being judged by their publishers. Truthfully, I'm very disappointed in the track this site has taken. Is the focus still the publisher?

Have you checked the rest of the Water Cooler out? There is a ton of writing information passed along here. This is such a small part of the entire site, but it's here to warn others and has done so in the past and very recently.

Some are disappointed when they come here and read this thread and like you seem to imply that this is all Absolute Write is about when it isn't. I'm not saying that you do think this, it's just the way I'm reading it. And I'll admit I'm wrong a lot.

As far as getting off track, the mods will post and let us know when we do.

JulieB
04-20-2008, 03:06 AM
I've been to the Ghostwriter site, and no, not everything they review is a PA book. That's why I'd like to see this topic split out. As I said before, this particular topic is not about PA. It's not about the authors, it's about the reviews.

I've had bad reviews, but I've never asked for them to be removed. I'd like to think that readers have the capacity to evaluate reviews and make a decision for themselves.

Stacia Kane
04-20-2008, 03:08 AM
Hi StuffedToy,

I'm a little concerned about this, on your FAQ page at Ghostwriter Reviews:



Q- I am unpublished but would like to use your Ebook services, is this possible?


A- Yes. The best part about this is that the author keeps their rights, so they’re free to query publishers while maybe still make a few dollars on their work. There is no contract, and all work is safely put into Ebook format. Ebooks are removed upon authors request.



If I'm not mistaken--and of course I very well could be--self-publishing actually does use up those first pub rights. Can anyone confirm this for me? You said you have an agent, have you asked him or her about this?

I also wonder about the connection between your reviews and which books you sell in your online shop and gift shop; is there one?

burgy61
04-20-2008, 03:24 AM
I didn't start the review site to be famous, or to dupe anyone

What are your reasons for starting a review site?

Truthfully, I'm very disappointed in the track this site has taken. Is the focus still the publisher? Because I'm seeing a lot more about the 'authors' being noted.

This thread is now and has always been about the publisher. Authors get noted because of the misinformation they are spewing.

I took the time to read every book review you posted for the month of march. IMHO, every review would make a great cover blurb.

BenPanced
04-20-2008, 04:54 AM
I stand with PA. Why, because they have done everything that they stated in their contract to me.
To get back on track, did anybody else notice the beauty of a typo in the above? One little word can change the whole meaning of the sentence but considering PA's track record, I'd say it should stand.

ResearchGuy
04-20-2008, 05:29 AM
I must ask this question... Show of hands please... how many of you would like to do reviews- oh, and not get paid for your time and effort??? . . .
Hand raised.

But I won't review just any book that comes along. For one extraordinary book, though, I wrote a five-thousand-word review (including sidebars) for a professional journal. (I have also written a column off and on for that journal for a few years, pro bono, and I have made presentations, written, and edited without pay many times over the years when the activities served good purposes.) I've done shorter reviews for newsletters -- not to mention editing newsletters and holding various board positions, all unpaid, in nonprofit groups. Sometimes it is a matter of paying one's dues, and, one hopes, good karma.

Oh, I have written many brief reviews on Amazon.com, obviously unpaid.

--Ken

Jersey Chick
04-20-2008, 05:44 AM
Here - to really get back on track! :D

PA books are priced higher than famous authors because PA authors are not famous, do not have a following and guarantee no sales by name recognition and are printed one at a time -custom is always more costly than a 5000 copy print run.

And that's not the only reason. It's because PA doesn't care if anyone outside of you - the author - buys copies of this book. They make it as difficult as possible for anyone else to get their mitts on it.

Yes, trade paperbacks are higher - but not $20+.

You can catch PA's specials and sell the books yourself at a lower cost if you wish. Buy buy buy buy buy your book. Keep boxes of them around the house, in the car trunk... <sigh>

People will blanch at the cost of the book - be prepared. And don't you dare question why.

Bookstores shelve books that come with a sales guarantee. So bookstores never return stock???

That does not include PA authors except by exception: as a result of professional marketing by the author and after successful book signings, one store at a time. Because you can't be in more than one place at a time. PA isn't doing to a damn thing to try to get that book into any catalogue.

They will do a book signing, especially if a PA author has a good marketing plan and will draw customers to the store. Sign at other locations besides book stores. Like the airport, the local Jiffy Lube, your vet's office. You know, places people often associate with books.

PA books are known for errors because the authors are anxious to get their books and bypass PA steps to proofread. Sure - it's the author's fault. No "traditional" (coughcoughcough) publisher even offers the option to not edit.

This practice hurts all PA authors. Edit manuscripts thoroughly and take every edit PA offers. Unless, of course, you don't wany any new errors introduced.

If you take no edits, PA puts a statement to that effect on the inside, front page of your book. No other publisher does that; they insist on edits. Take the edits and wait for your book a little longer; it's worth it in the long run. Yet, PA offers the option. What's wrong with that picture???

As for that statement, PA might as well put it in every book. Really.

PA promises a book complete within a year; it's always less time. Hmmm... can't imagine why...

Compared to New York publishing houses that can let new author works languish for years....it's really very fast. Yes, while your editor edits, your FLE edits, the marketing department prepares the push for it, the cover artists are working to create the cover, etc.

The PA staff in all departments are talented and professional. Yes - just take a look at their "professional" correspondence when an author question something.

Patience is a virtue. Use wait times to build name recognition, demand for your book and to line up book signings, prepare PR materials, etc. Or work on your next book, since this one's DOA. And really, how many flyers can you shove under windshield wipers before your arms fall off. How many towns can you possibly hit??


Amazon.com and anyone affiliated (Target and Wall mart and dozens of online bookstores) no longer show PA books except as pass through sales (selling by other sellers besides Amazon.) Borders is also an Amazon partner. B&N & others still show PA books. This is because PA refused Amazon's demand that Amazon print the PA books to have them listed. One of the benefits of publishing with PA was their wide distribution of our books that included Amazon.com and all its affiliates. Yep - the pretty much the only distribution. And now that's gone. Kind of like your PA book.

The PA bashing is old news. PA gives new authors a chance to be published at no cost in quality print books with wide distribution. Sometimes a really lousy book gets printed, same as with the New York Times and other publishers being fooled by fake autobiographies and fake news stories. Most of the books are a good read, many are excellent and ready to be discovered. And it's a shame that no one outside of your town will ever know about what might be a great read.

Read the contract fully and that's what you get from PA, probably more but certainly no less. I've yet to read anywhere that PA has done more than their contract says they will. I almost snorted my Pepsi over this line.

They provide the services they advertise and throw in fantastic web site services. Their nitch in the market is unique and for nitch authors, unknown and starting their career, PA gives the author a start. It's up to the author to move it further. First, WTF is a nitch??? Okay - anyway - they provide an overpriced, poorly edited book that 99% of bookstores won't stock. Their "nitch" is that they are a vanity press. And you could get better product for less cost if you go with something like Lulu.

PA does not give an author a start. They give them a false start. And sometimes destroy a lot more than a manuscript in the process. They are not unique - unless you count being deceptive as unique.

Pre-publication reviews by someone reknowned for review excellence are better than post-publication reviews by colleagues and fellow authors. Instead of rushing the publishing process, make galley prints and get those pre-publication reviews. Some require four months lead time before publication. Then use them on the books's jacket. That's missing from most PA books. Yes, and you have to do this, because PA sure as hell won't.

whew... that took a lot out of me... i think i need a nap.

W. Lane Rogers
04-20-2008, 05:51 AM
As for our paid services... they are optional. No one has to pay for anything, but it's nice if someone does take us up on an offer on occasion. It costs $$$ to run a website, and I can't tell you of the hours I have dedicated to it. Outside of some assistance from my husband, I pretty much do everything. A few months back we did a free review for Everlasting Films, then without warning, they paid for the second one, stating they wanted to support the site. If anyone wants a heads up on my total revenues for last year, it was around $400- and that was mostly from book sales. (My own)

Ghost Writer reviews reek of amateurism. They are embarrassments littered with gushing adjectives, misspellings, grammatical errors, errors in punctuation and structure. There isn't a person on the staff who has a clue what literary criticism is about.

The notion of paying for a review is nothing short of bizarre. Away from the internet, the practice is unheard of. The notion of paying Ghost Writer for a review takes bizarre over the edge.

That this company has the audacity to offer editorial services is chilling.

AW pundits who decry non-professional practices in the publishing industry ought to be appalled by the proliferation of book review scams that dot the internet. They suck up naive authors into believing that book buyers, booksellers, publishers, et al, pay attention to the "5-star" dribble they excuse as criticism. In fact, the reviews have no value whatever--other than as ego strokes for inexperienced writers.

Meaningful reviews are gotten from legitimate media. They are not gotten from semi-literate amateurs incapable of writing coherent sentences, who put up websites and call themselves reviewers.

Christine N.
04-20-2008, 06:47 AM
Usually we do. There have been other discussions about such reviews sites. Now, that's not to say that reviewers outside of media aren't any good or useful. Like so much in publishing - it depends. There is a fairly large network of amateur bloggers that read and review YA books. They have a large audience, and many NY publishers send ARC's to them. They create buzz by virtue of repetition, and a good review from more than one of them usually will sell books. The publishers offer up books to give away, and many of the bloggers also interview the authors. It makes for good, cheap, promotion. I can't use the reviews on marketing materials, but hey, if they get more people to buy my book, I'm not complaining.

But that's YA, and those reviewers are usually YA's themselves. They write reviews for readers and readers alone, not for authors. One of them actually gave me quite a scathing review. But it will stand, because that's her opinion and she's every right to it. Others took a better view of the book. I will never ask someone to remove a review, because I'm a professional and must take things like that as they come. There are also a great deal of Romance review sites whose reviews DO garner attention in the genre. But again, good reviews are posted as well as bad, and readers have come to trust what they read on those sites.

If you're talking about Literary works, or Non-fiction, then yes, the most useful reviews come from those with background in those areas. And random review site reviews mean nothing to bookstore chain buyers, unlike trade publication reviews.

W. Lane Rogers
04-20-2008, 06:57 AM
If you're talking about Literary works, or Non-fiction, then yes, the most useful reviews come from those with background in those areas. And random review site reviews mean nothing to bookstore chain buyers, unlike trade publication reviews.

What you call "random review site reviews" are meaningless to industry professionals. They are not given the time of day. They are, by and large, meaningless to book buyers as well--most of whom, mercifully, haven't a clue that such sites exist.

Meaningful book reviews are gotten from legitimate media. It's a bottom line that serious writers have to acknowledge. There are no worthwhile shortcuts.

Marie Pacha
04-20-2008, 07:20 AM
I expect a legitimate reviewer to have either formal education in English/writing or professional experience in literature. I'd also expect them to have a CV that would list their qualifications (being published does not make one qualified to review other's work in my opinion.) I would also expect them to include as part of their ratings such unimportant (sarcasm intended) details as grammar, spelling and punctuation. An occasional error can be overlooked, but sloppiness should not be excused even if the concept is good.

Anyone can have an opinion about a book, but that's NOT a review and I don't think it should be presented as such.

PVish
04-20-2008, 07:58 AM
I think what is sad about PA authors seeking reviews is that many do not understand that not all reviews are equal.

Just as they have no understanding of what real publishing is like, they likewise might not understand that a Publisher's Weekly or New York Times review is far better than one from Ghostwriters or this (http://authorsontherisebookreviews.blogspot.com/) pay-to-play blog review, for instance. Perhaps they think that these other sources of reviews will give their book the chance it deserves. I dunno.

I wonder how many PA authors even read book reviews before submitting their manuscripts to PA. From what I've read on the PAMB, many seem to think that the more times their books are mentioned on the Internet, the better.

Granted, individual bloggers can generate "book buzz" ( a term I learned at a writers' conference), and many readers who've either loved or hated a book can certainly blog about it. Some commercially published authors even encourage bloggers to mention their books. But blogs are no substitute for legitimate reviews in real publications.

And, IMHO, the paid review sites are even less legitimate.

cethklein
04-20-2008, 05:16 PM
But anyway, to bring this back on topic, I'll add a few more quotes from the venerable DK Cristi, an "expert".

The PA bashing is old news. PA gives new authors a chance to be published at no cost in quality print books with wide distribution. Sometimes a really lousy book gets printed, same as with the New York Times and other publishers being fooled by fake autobiographies and fake news stories. Most of the books are a good read, many are excellent and ready to be discovered.

Wait, the New York Times is publishing full novels now? At first it seemed she meant "lousy books" to mean book that were unedited and poorly-written, but that can't be the case as "the big New York publishers" will definitely make sure their books are edited. See it's flat-out lies and misinformation like this that is at the root of the problem. This is why I think this woman works for PA. It reeks of propaganda. She seems far too eager to constantly toot PA's horn. But who knows, she may just be that wrapped up in their BS.

Read the contract fully and that's what you get from PA, probably more but certainly no less. They provide the services they advertise and throw in fantastic web site services. Their nitch in the market is unique and for nitch authors, unknown and starting their career, PA gives the author a start. It's up to the author to move it further.

What is a "nitch"? Could she be referring to a "niche" perhaps? (And this is a person people on PAMB regard as a "professional"????)


I hope someone on that board gives this new author accurate information or good advice such as contacting his local media for a review.


AHAHAHAHAHAHA AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA. That was good, I needed that. :tongue

TwentyFour
04-20-2008, 09:25 PM
It's curious that out of 30,000 PA titles, so we're told, my one seems to be monitored by wildcat booksellers. Those sellers almost have to be others with access to the PA message boards--one of us. I don't have a particular problem with that possibility--free enterprise and all that--but I did find it interesting.


Strangely, all those sources describe the available copies to be new. If all those new books are on hand and available for immediate delivery, how come my royalty statement from PA does not reflect those sales to dealers? There are twenty-seven sources for my one book, some of which list the copies as "used, good condition" but most are described as "new." Up until now I have not received royalties for twenty-seven single copies, let alone multiple copies from twenty-seven dealers who claim to have the books in stock.



I believe we need an explanation for this. These are our books. PA is our publisher and we are in this together. We are dependent on each other and if we work together we can solve this problem. We signed a contract with PA. We hold the copyrights for these books. Where are these people getting our books and how?




Will they get the answers they seek? Dum....dum....dum......

ResearchGuy
04-20-2008, 10:37 PM
. . .
Wait, the New York Times is publishing full novels now? . . .
It has reviewed or otherwise (in articles) featured books that turned out to be frauds. That was the meaning there.

--Ken

cethklein
04-20-2008, 10:42 PM
Ahhh ok. I guess I didn't catch that given this woman's atrocious understanding of sentence structure.

James D. Macdonald
04-20-2008, 11:24 PM
Where are these people getting our books and how?

They aren't. Those are Internet-only sellers who list anything with an ISBN. They figure that if someone orders a copy they can find one, and make a profit on shipping and handling.

Marian Perera
04-21-2008, 07:59 AM
PA author on editing (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26533&start=15)

According to this author, he or she was not given Option 3, where PA supposedly edits your book.

No option 3 for my book either, when it was published last November. Option 1 and 2 are just spell checkers (and typo checkers) you have to do on your own and report to PA for correction. I was left with the impression there is no "human" edit on PA's part.

No PA bashing intended, just reporting my experience.

Wonder if this will stay.

Stuffedtoy
04-21-2008, 11:02 AM
All this bickering really wears me out, but I still feel the need for justification. As previously stated, we do not only review PA books, and maybe some of the reviews are a bit slighted with information, but some titles are real hard be descriptive with. Understand this... I long moved away from the PA family before I started this site- I honestly don't even want to be associated with them. Many times I have talked an author out of going there. When your designed to 'help' authors, they're more inclined to trust what you say. Not all of my reviewers are associated with PA either. One was, but pulled her contract. Another, has one title- her first, with them, and she has tried to end her contract, but PA refused to terminate it. Since then she has self-published several titles. Peter, who suffers from Cancer issues, does occasional reviews, not associated with PA in any way. Sunshine- not even an author. There is one reviewer who more glorifies the book than explaining them, but even she has improved. Wanda- not associated with PA- She's an English major, by the way. Anyone on the reviewers list who may have been a PA author at one time, has pretty much turned against them. So when you look at it that way, you'd think they'd be against PA books. I get what's being said about the 'paid reviews.' I don't know how to assure that no one has bought a good review. In the almost year that this site has been open, we've had 2 paid reviews. The first one got a 2- the second did well, but it was a really good book. I couldn't in good conscience, give a good mark to a bad book. However, if it makes you feel any better, I'll take that option off. By the way, sometimes I miss things when I post the reviews, and often I'll find them and correct them. I do part time editing for a publisher- and no, it's not PA.
As for the ebooks- I think in order for it to be considered published, it needs to carry an ISBN- unless it goes through a place like Lulu- where the unofficial copyright is given. I'm not an expert on this- but basically I don't hold contracts. I think there is one PA author who got his rights from PA for an ebook- the rest are from elsewhere. The ebook site is more of work in progress. I don't advertise it as yet, but am more in the building process.
I know this is a forum about PA- but who are you helping??? Bad stuff about this company is all over the place. Those that need the information are those considering PA, but how many of them frequent these boards? I get the 'oh these poor blind fools' thing, but 380 pages? Are we entertaining ourselves?

Marian Perera
04-21-2008, 03:43 PM
All this bickering really wears me out, but I still feel the need for justification. As previously stated, we do not only review PA books, and maybe some of the reviews are a bit slighted with information, but some titles are real hard be descriptive with.

I have no idea what you mean by "some titles are real hard be descriptive with". Surely your reviewers read more than the title of a book before writing a review? If they at least make an attempt to read the book itself, then they should have an idea what the book is about.

If you want to check out a good reviews site, go to All About Romance, which tells readers the book's genre or sub-genre, date of publication, publisher and cost before going on to describe the basic plot, hero, heroine and antagonist. The reviews also honestly say what works or what doesn't work about the book.

I don't expect anyone to be "against PA books", but I find it difficult to believe that any unbiased review site would have so many positive reviews - especially when it comes to PA-printed books, which are notorious for having errors.

Understand this... I long moved away from the PA family before I started this site- I honestly don't even want to be associated with them.

That's good. However, if Ghostwriter Reviews gives positive reviews to a lot of PA books, such that your site is often promoted on the PAMB, people may have the impression that you are associated with PA. There may only be one big shark in the water, but that shark will attract scavengers who mill around in the hopes of picking up the leftovers. I get that impression from the people who sell posters and ebooks on marketing to PA authors, for instance. Sites which are guaranteed to offer four- or five-star reviews to PA authors would fall under the same category.

I know this is a forum about PA- but who are you helping???

People who are questioning whether PA is for them and people who realize that PA has mistreated or deceived them.

Bad stuff about this company is all over the place. Those that need the information are those considering PA, but how many of them frequent these boards?

We're not planning to trawl for PA authors or potential PA authors. If they're here and they want to read these threads, that's their choice.

I get the 'oh these poor blind fools' thing, but 380 pages? Are we entertaining ourselves?

The 380 pages include quotes from the PAMB. To me, those are evidence to back up our claims about PA. They are also saved because the PAMB is rigidly monitored and censored. And people here comment on the quotes, since it wouldn't be much use for newcomers or lurkers to read misinformation or misapprehensions without having the correct information as well. If you found this entertaining, that's great. I think one of the best ways of getting facts across is to make the presentation as entertaining as possible.

The "poor blind fools" part is entirely your invention, since I don't believe anyone here has called PA authors fools (until now).

Thanks for clarifying your position on PA.

Christine N.
04-21-2008, 04:46 PM
Stuffedtoy, the Ghostwriter reviews thread has been pulled out of this one and moved to the AW Roundtable forum. If you'd like to continue the discussion, you can come over there.

Christine(who is not a mod, just giving a heads up)

cethklein
04-21-2008, 06:49 PM
Here's one that willl turn your stomach.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26555

Here's a woman who is obviously grieving yet PA will still exploit that. How can anyone who works for PA read something like this knowing full well this woman's book for her dead children will never end up in the hands of anyone but the author herself?

Oh wait, the key word is "work for PA." I guess I answered my own question. These people really have no class or soul.

stormie
04-21-2008, 07:21 PM
Poor woman. She says (and I paraphrase) that she hopes by the sale of her book, she can help raise her grandchildren. But she does say she wants her grandchildren to have it as kind of an heirloom, to remember their mothers, her daughters. So maybe the fact that it will be bound and printed will be enough for her, and help her to heal. As for the monies pouring in, doubtful.

ResearchGuy
04-21-2008, 07:41 PM
. . .maybe the fact that it will be bound and printed will be enough for her, and help her to heal. . . .
Agreed, maybe so. If she is expecting revenues from the book, of course, she will be disappointed -- but she would be both desperately frustrated AND disappointed by pursuit of commercial publishing for what sounds like an utterly non-commercial book. This seems to be precisely the sort of case for which PA offers something of value: the work put into printed, bound book form without the years of delay, rejection, and heartache of fruitless pursuit of commercial publication. But the value comes only if she neither needs nor counts on revenue from sales and does not go out on a limb to buy unsalable copies.

My views. No scathing denunciations necessary.

--Ken

cethklein
04-21-2008, 08:17 PM
Yeah but she could have gone with another POD. Ys she might have had to pay but at leasy she won't be harrassed like she will be by PA to buy her own books, she'll be able to buy them as she sees fit without the hassle.

stormie
04-21-2008, 08:32 PM
PA will harrass her and she'll buy the books. I just get that feeling from reading her posts and visiting her website. I don't think she'll see the grammatical errors or poor printing job. She'll only see a memorial to her daughters, and an "heirloom" (her word) for her grandchildren to have. The disappointment for her will be in the lack of royalties, the lack of money coming in from the book to help her raise her grandchildren.

Afinerosesheis
04-21-2008, 08:38 PM
Those that need the information are those considering PA, but how many of them frequent these boards? I get the 'oh these poor blind fools' thing, but 380 pages? Are we entertaining ourselves?

This has been a safe haven for me and other PA authors who have been banned and bullied at other message boards. It has given us an opportunity to learn the truth and heal from an unfortunate experience. We can speak freely here without fear of censure for doing so.

And also to stuffedtoy-please put some breaks in your paragraphs to make for easier reading instead of blobbing it all together. Thanks =)

JulieB
04-21-2008, 08:40 PM
Agreed, maybe so. If she is expecting revenues from the book, of course, she will be disappointed -- but she would be both desperately frustrated AND disappointed by pursuit of commercial publishing for what sounds like an utterly non-commercial book. This seems to be precisely the sort of case for which PA offers something of value: the work put into printed, bound book form without the years of delay, rejection, and heartache of fruitless pursuit of commercial publication. But the value comes only if she neither needs nor counts on revenue from sales and does not go out on a limb to buy unsalable copies.

My views. No scathing denunciations necessary.



None from me, at least. She'll have a couple of copies to hold in her hand, and she can buy a few more for the family at a discount. If that's all she wants, then it's probably a good deal for her.

Yes, there's Lulu. She probably could have had a better deal there, but would she have the skills and patience to deal with their tools to layout the book? We don't know.

stormie
04-21-2008, 08:42 PM
Yes, there's Lulu. She probably could have had a better deal there, but would she have the skills and patience to deal with their tools to layout the book? We don't know.
Doubtful. At least not in this case.

stormie
04-21-2008, 08:48 PM
PA author on editing (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26533&start=15)

According to this author, he or she was not given Option 3, where PA supposedly edits your book.
Wonder if this will stay.
Amazing. It's still there. Counting...10, 9, 8,...

Ann Onamuss
04-21-2008, 08:56 PM
To publish a book with Lulu took me about 45 minutes. And only that long because I had to find the perfect clipart in the right dimensions and tweak the color just so for my purposes. Then I spent some time choosing the font for the cover which took a few tries. It really was a no brainer.

Christine N.
04-21-2008, 08:56 PM
Doubtful. At least not in this case.

They're actually getting easier to deal with at Lulu. The first time I made up my own book there (family thing) I needed to format myself, mostly because the fonts I was using were unsupported by the Lulu software. The second time (needed print copy of something for personal use) I just formatted to the proper size and let lulu convert. Easy peasy, took 30 seconds.

Now with the new Word software, you can convert to .pdf right from the word processor without needing extra software like primo pdf (which was what I used the first time).

The cover, on the other hand, I can see how it would present problems, but again, their cover making interface has gotten much more user friendly. Unless you wanted a special image and didn't know how to format it (I have paint.net, which took a bit of time to learn, but even I can do it now), it's relatively stress-free now.

ResearchGuy
04-21-2008, 09:03 PM
To publish a book with Lulu took me about 45 minutes. And only that long because I had to find the perfect clipart in the right dimensions and tweak the color just so for my purposes. Then I spent some time choosing the font for the cover which took a few tries. It really was a no brainer.
I've done it over a weekend from .txt file to finished, carefully formatted, cover-designed, ordered book, but for books of significance (where I am working with other authors, formally publishing, and seeking to make a profit) the process takes months of back-and-forth, revising, re-examining, proofing -- and I have the advantage of years of experience with the software and with laying out documents for publication, including many at book length.

If someone can do the whole process for any serious project adequately in 45 minutes, I stand back in dumbstruck amazement.

--Ken

JimmyD1318
04-21-2008, 09:04 PM
Amazing. It's still there. Counting...10, 9, 8,...


I'll bet a bag of POPCORN that it will be gone soon.

stormie
04-21-2008, 09:06 PM
Plenty of butter and salt, please. :D

ResearchGuy
04-21-2008, 09:09 PM
. . . she won't be harrassed like she will be by PA to buy her own books, she'll be able to buy them as she sees fit without the hassle.
You really believe that pay-to-play subsidy PODs do NOT badger their authors to buy in bulk?

--Ken