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Jersey Chick
02-24-2008, 10:12 PM
Probably all that catnip! :D

JulieB
02-24-2008, 10:17 PM
Would "compeditor" be the compound form of "competent editor"?

Of course, we don't know if the person who posted that caught the error later on. We're used to being able to go back and edit our own posts.

Believe me, I've made some idiotic spelling errors - here and on other boards - and haven't noticed them until after I hit the SUBMIT button. I use Firefox, which has a spell checker built in, but even that can't catch there/their or two/too and the like. Still, it's rescued me from more than a few errors - especially if I'm posting before I've had coffee. ;-)

PA lurkers - please consider Firefox or a spelling checker add-in for IE. At least you'll have the opportunity to catch some of the more blatant errors.

JulieB
02-24-2008, 10:18 PM
Probably all that catnip! :D

I grow my own, you know!

Queen of Swords
02-24-2008, 10:21 PM
Well, the "Is there any recourse" thread was locked, but not before Frenchie got the last word in. Apparently they banned Lane but not her.

JulieB
02-24-2008, 10:27 PM
Does anyone know if that newspaper printed PA's letter?

Christine N.
02-24-2008, 10:38 PM
Yes, so jealous 'cause my name's not in that newspaper.

It's in this one instead ("http://blog.nj.com/southjerseylife/2008/02/they_have_the_write_stuff.html)

Scribhneoir
02-24-2008, 10:47 PM
How can you NOT notice the publisher name or logo on the spine?

The only publisher I seek out in particular is Hard Case Crime. They've got a distinctive spine which makes them very easy to spot on the shelves. My local Borders has gone one better and besides stocking the books by author, they also have them grouped together under H, so I guess I'm not the only reader seeking Hard Case Crime out specifically.

As for the envy excuse, I just feel sorry for PA authors who trot that out. It reeks of desperation to maintain the illusion that their book was chosen on merit by a legitimate publisher and that they didn't make a horrible mistake submitting to PA.

tlblack
02-24-2008, 11:16 PM
I read almost all genre's and have even found some reference books to be quite interesting. I don't always look at the publisher of the book, but I do always read the synopsis, and scan a few pages of a book before I decide to buy it. The ones I do buy, however don't end up in the same condition as my PA book. The books I buy at the bookstore do not have pages falling out of them.

Jersey Chick
02-24-2008, 11:21 PM
Some of my books do have pages falling out - because I've read them a gazillion times. :D

JulieB
02-24-2008, 11:36 PM
Some of my books do have pages falling out - because I've read them a gazillion times. :D

Same here.

PVish
02-25-2008, 12:01 AM
Well, the "Is there any recourse" thread was locked, but not before Frenchie got the last word in. Apparently they banned Lane but not her.

Could be the post before hers that got the thread locked. The previous several postings had been overwhelmingly, gushingly (insert other superfluous adverbs here) positive until another poster shared concerns about her writers group's perceptions of PA. I'll post it here just in case PA decides to go back and delete it. (I bolded things that PA doesn't want to hear):

I went to my writers group this last month. I came in a half hour late. A man who was part of the group for a long time was talking about a publisher and all the bad things that he did not agree with. He didn't look at me knowing I am published with them. Our group had about ten people there, the same ones that usually come and a few new people. All of them were listening intently to the guy and nodding their heads. The president looked at me and said [name redacted] what do you think?

I smiled and said very nicely. "I am published with the publisher he is talking about." I told everyone in the group that PA didn't promise anything that they haven't delivered, that I was glad that they took the chance and accepted my work. I said PA specializes in first time authors, giving an opportunity to those who would not normally get even a glance. Because PA published my work, I now have many opportunities open to me than I did before. I have several shorts published through the Amazon Short Program because of being published, as they don't accept work from the general public. I have the opportunity to talk and network with authors from all over the United States and in other countries. I didn't have to pay PA a dime to publish my work and they have fulfilled everything in the contract that I signed.

I acknowledged that there was plenty of bashing going on about my publisher on the Internet, but all publishers have things about them that people don't agree with, all you have to do is a little research.

I also told the group, them, that if they wanted to go through a mainstream publisher, that is great and I would support them all the way. As we all should. I also told them that talking bad about publishers only takes away from the writing all of us loves to do. Everyone has their own goals and reasons for what it is they do and it isn't anyones business why they do it, much less put them down for doing it. It is important to support each other no matter who we are, whether we get published or not. I asserted that when you are ready to sign on the dotted line, make sure you understand what it is you are signing and you won't ever be disappointed.

I looked at the man who had been putting my publisher down and smiled. He finally made eye contact with me and nodded his head. The group had a lot of questions about my work and my Publisher at the end of the time we had in the group. I walked out smiling.


This posting points out that (1) there are a lot of people who don't like what PA does (2) they can read about the "bashing" on the Internet (3) Internet research could lead to others learning about even more bad things about PA (4) PA isn't a mainstream publisher (5) PA doesn't promise much.

The discussion could have taken a dangerous (well, for PA) turn after this posting. Others might have asked specific questions. Best close the thread and maintain the illusion of 20,000 happy authors.

Hummertime
02-25-2008, 01:41 AM
Well, the "Is there any recourse" thread was locked, but not before Frenchie got the last word in. Apparently they banned Lane but not her.

Or Dick Stoghill, the pipe-smoking guy. He's still there too.

CatSlave
02-25-2008, 03:59 AM
They support the party line.
Anyone who might upset the status quo is silenced before the herd gets wind of trouble brewing.

DaveKuzminski
02-25-2008, 04:09 AM
I also told them that talking bad about publishers only takes away from the writing all of us loves to do.

Huh? Is that on the same line of logic as talking bad about burglars takes away from the sleeping all of us loves to do? Is that on the same level of logic as talking bad about robbers takes away from all the shopping all of us loves to do? Is that on the same level of logic as talking bad about murderers takes away from all the breathing all of us loves to do?

In other words, that writer needs to think that through. If the publisher is a scam, then it's to everyone's benefit that the facts come out. If the publisher isn't a scam, then it's ALSO to everyone's benefit that the facts come out. After all, protecting someone or a business without letting all the facts come out is a disservice to everyone.

Queen of Swords
02-25-2008, 04:41 AM
They operate from the assumption that if you can't say anything nice, you have to be quiet - which is one reason they don't like critical reviews. If the publisher is a scam, you shouldn't tell people who have been deceived because that might disappoint them. Better to let them live in blissful ignorance instead.

BarbJ
02-25-2008, 07:35 AM
They operate from the assumption that if you can't say anything nice, you have to be quiet - which is one reason they don't like critical reviews.

Possibly also why the constant bannings don't bother them. Has anyone ever read a message on the PAMB questioning the bans - before the message itself was banned?

I was surprised to see the PA writer PVish quoted used the term "mainstream publisher". So some do realize what's meant by PA's "traditional". And the poster was happy others asked about PA. That's scary. I'm still curious why they blame any negativity on envy; surely they realize just about anyone can be "published" by PA. They must; PA admits it. Sometimes the PAMB seems kind of surreal... :flag:

So royalties are impending (as in the impending doom). Better keep an eye on the PAMB; PA certainly will, and comments will disappear fast. :Ssh:

DaveKuzminski
02-25-2008, 05:16 PM
Here's a mantra for PA authors to ask of PA's Author Support: What happened to all the PA authors who asked questions last month?

Jersey Chick
02-25-2008, 06:58 PM
Is everyone as excited as I am to get their royalty check? I'm a bit nervous too, I'm not expecting to get rich off this check, but to have sold a good number would be good!

It has begun. I hope she knows how many books she's sold - I wouldn't trust PA to offer up an accurate account. This could get depressing fast...

emsuniverse
02-25-2008, 08:01 PM
It has begun. I hope she knows how many books she's sold - I wouldn't trust PA to offer up an accurate account. This could get depressing fast...

I take it checks are going out?

jamiehall
02-25-2008, 08:07 PM
Possibly also why the constant bannings don't bother them. Has anyone ever read a message on the PAMB questioning the bans - before the message itself was banned?

I was surprised to see the PA writer PVish quoted used the term "mainstream publisher". So some do realize what's meant by PA's "traditional". And the poster was happy others asked about PA. That's scary. I'm still curious why they blame any negativity on envy; surely they realize just about anyone can be "published" by PA. They must; PA admits it. Sometimes the PAMB seems kind of surreal... :flag:

So royalties are impending (as in the impending doom). Better keep an eye on the PAMB; PA certainly will, and comments will disappear fast. :Ssh:

I'm actually kind of depressed about this kind of hype being fed to a writers' group. I hope the rest of the people were just being polite when they stopped criticizing and started being interested. But it is possible that one or more could get sucked into PA by seeing such a happy author.

I almost wish that the entire rest of the writing group could organize a group sting - all of them send in manuscripts created by computerized poetry generators or some other type of nonsense - and then show the manuscripts and their acceptance letters to the author. But, it'll probably be uncomfortable enough in the club once the PA author gets out of the honeymoon phase and realizes the truth - that PA books are pre-doomed to failure because PA designs it that way.

CatSlave
02-25-2008, 08:40 PM
A number of people are satisfied playing the Published Author game, and it would be pointless to kick sand in their faces. They have their chat and their camaraderie and their sense of accomplishment; they aren't interfering with the serious writers who are honing their writing skills. IMO it's best to just leave them be.

The ones who are serious about their writing and need mainstream publishing to meet their goals--those are the people we want to educate about the perils of PA. Judging from a number of posts here, this forum has been successful in warning new writers to look before they leap.

I know these posts sound repetitive to some, myself included, but they are reaching people who are at risk of losing their dreams of being published, not just printed.

ResearchGuy
02-25-2008, 08:41 PM
. . .
I almost wish that the entire rest of the writing group could organize a group sting - all of them send in manuscripts created by computerized poetry generators or some other type of nonsense - and then show the manuscripts and their acceptance letters to the author. But, it'll probably be uncomfortable enough in the club once the PA author gets out of the honeymoon phase and realizes the truth - that PA books are pre-doomed to failure because PA designs it that way.
Have you spent time in meetings of groups like that?

My experience in what is probably a comparable group has been that pretty much all of the members are about as uninformed. They are also not eager to be unkind to the others in the group -- they will applaud vanity publication. Someone who is forthright about vanity publishing is the skunk at the picnic. (Been there, done that.) Finally, some of the PA authors (again, based on the small sample I know first hand) are entirely satisfied with the experience. I have found it futile to try to explain that PA is a vanity publisher and to explode the misconceptions held by some. I know it piffs people here off to hear that, but that is what I have observed over a three-year period now.

Some of the books these authors are so pleased with are at best hard slogging (I never got past page 1 of one of them), but it is not exactly a welcome intervention to say, "Your writing is really bad and no legitimate publisher would have touched it with a barge pole."

It is a lot easier to make airy generalizations about what one should do in such a group or to speculate that most members would rally 'round a sting manuscript than it is to debunk PA, the most deceptive vanity publisher on the planet, in the face of writers who have swallowed its line and in front of their friends.

If you do not believe me, I encourage you to join such a group and attend meetings for a couple of years. I suspect it would be hard to find a group that is untouched by PA.

--Ken

Joanna_S
02-25-2008, 08:53 PM
It's also strange that so many of the PA writers speak about all the negative buzz, the accusations of PA being a scam, etc. and yet they almost revel in that fact. "You and me against the world" instead of "Hmmm... I don't see any websites accusing Random House of being a scam." There's also that bold, "They've done everything they promised" speech instead of "I need my publisher to promise a heck of a lot more than this." I understand that it can take some time to admit to yourself that you've been scammed, but eventually that coffee smell is overwhelming and most people wake up.

And yes, it is depressing thinking of all the misinformation being eagerly touted in writers' groups. The old "they specialize in publishing new writers" thing is one of PA's most powerful weapons. When I first started writing I used to look for lines like that in the Writer's Market, thinking that was the only way I'd have a shot. PA wasn't around back then but had it been, I could see my younger self falling for the scam because my desire to be published was so very strong.

-- Joanna

Rodlen
02-25-2008, 09:05 PM
Hmm...the PAMB seems to be down...I wonder why?

Did any of you <insert name of bug that is a bit toady here>s do a special strike against the PAMB, or did PA just fail in yet another way?

CatSlave
02-25-2008, 09:08 PM
The site frequently crashes, although PA insists it's 'never down.'

So you shouldn't get your hopes up too quickly.

ETA: It probably crashed due to all the AWers accessing the site to see what new atrocities have occurred.

Rodlen
02-25-2008, 09:11 PM
Yay! The latter! PA fails in yet another way!

I wonder how many PA authors will notice the lie when they try to get on the PAMB right now?

Queen of Swords
02-25-2008, 09:12 PM
Most PA authors don't notice lies that come from PA. If they do, they find ways to justify or rationalize the lies.

Joanna_S
02-25-2008, 09:50 PM
One reason scams work so well is because their victims do most of the work for them. Victims will jump through mental hoops to make their decision to go with the scam seem logical and beneficial. To do otherwise is to admit the enormity of the mistake.

-- Joanna

Queen of Swords
02-25-2008, 10:06 PM
Here's something interesting. (http://zanadib.blogspot.com/)

One of the authors currently posting on the PAMB admits in her blog that PA is a vanity press.

... I have to admit that going with a vanity publishing company is the worst mistake that a begning author could make. I am sorry to say that I feel victim to one of those publishing companys that said they were traditional but they are just a vanity publisher.Thats right I am talking about PublishAmerica.

I was impressed - it takes guts to come straight out and say that. But the next blog entry backpedals.

...in my last post I made a comment about my publisher. And I take that all back. I was having a rough day and I needed to take it out on something. So I took it out on them. And my problems with my book are my own fault no one elses. I should have done a better check on spelling and gramar! So for any PublishAmerica author that is reading this and got offended by it I am truley sorry! PublishAmerica helped make my dream a reality!

I'm guessing some PA loyalist, or maybe even infocenter itself, saw the first entry and suggested that she might want to rethink her position, hence the humbled kowtowing in the second blog entry. I just hope she only said that to appease whoever might have been reading her blog, and not because it's what she really believes, since she was hoping to submit her next manuscript to an actual publisher.

On the PAMB, Pipesmoker's got his scare tactics of "agents won't let you blog", but I have a feeling that it's PA which won't let you blog - honestly.

JulieB
02-25-2008, 10:07 PM
Often when the board is down the main site is down as well. I have reason to suspect the problem is "upstream" from them. It's quite easy to delete posts from a board without taking it down. Sorry, but in this case I think people are ascribing evil motives to what is possibly a host server outage or reboot after maintenance.

Gravity
02-25-2008, 10:19 PM
Gone.

Gravity
02-25-2008, 10:21 PM
On the PAMB, Pipesmoker's got his scare tactics of "agents won't let you blog", but I have a feeling that it's PA which won't let you blog - honestly.

Between Frenchie and the Pipe, things stay pretty well screwed down tight over there.

DaveKuzminski
02-25-2008, 10:24 PM
Between Frenchie and the Pipe, things stay pretty well screwed down tight over there.

So they're the remaining candidates for Shemp's old position? Thought they'd be the ones. I'm betting on Frenchie.

Christine N.
02-25-2008, 11:56 PM
Gravity, it's not gone, the link is bad. Take out one set of http:// 's and you'll find it.

Gravity
02-26-2008, 12:10 AM
Ah, you're right. I read it. Triggered my gag reflex, it did. Everybody ought to read It's a Good Life, by Jerome Bixby. Among other things it's the story of the PAvidian, writ large.

DaveKuzminski
02-26-2008, 12:14 AM
Ah, you're right. I read it. Triggered my gag reflex, it did. Everybody ought to read It's a Good Life, by Jerome Bixby. Among other things it's the story of the PAvidian, writ large.

Aw, now, Gravity, you shouldn't have done that. Now PA will want to sue poor Jerome. ;)

Queen of Swords
02-26-2008, 12:17 AM
Gravity, it's not gone, the link is bad. Take out one set of http:// 's and you'll find it.

My bad. Thanks, Christine. I corrected the link.

Richard White
02-26-2008, 02:12 AM
On the PAMB, Pipesmoker's got his scare tactics of "agents won't let you blog", but I have a feeling that it's PA which won't let you blog - honestly.

Which is really funny considering how many agents blog . . .

And how many agented writers blog . . .

And how agents, like Kristen (http://pubrants.blogspot.com/) for one, encourage their authors to maintain web sites and blogs . . .

But, hey, don't let reality get in the way of a good rant

triceretops
02-26-2008, 02:42 AM
Yep, blogs are little platforms that draw potential reader/customers. Of course, Pipe smoker doesn't believe in internet sales. No wait! Yes he does! Could he have goofed? Naw...he knows it all.

Tri

Jersey Chick
02-26-2008, 02:45 AM
hmm.... I was under the assumption that publishers and agents like their authors doing things to keep their names out there. Yanno... like participating in book tours (for those lucky mega-writers), having some sort reader/author interaction.

I know one of the things my publisher wants to know is whether or not I have a blog, a website, a newsletter - things that will take away from my going from bookstore to bookstore, sure, but ones that will reach a much wider range of people.

oops - now I see where I went wrong. PA doesn't want any of those things because then their authors won't have to buy their own books. My bad ;)

emsuniverse
02-26-2008, 04:17 AM
Pipesmoker is doing what he's been asked to do - detract PA authors from the truth. I bet the Stooges instructed him to tell everyone on the PAMB that blogging is bad, so they won't do it. If they don't blog, there's less chances for them to be contacted by someone who says "Your publisher sucks!"

Losing contact with the outside world... Isn't that a sign of a cult?

Afinerosesheis
02-26-2008, 06:22 AM
I got the e-mail today saying royalty checks were going out this week. Uh...yay? And mentioned all of the celebrities published by them. (What does that have to do with moi?)

And last but not least, the sales discount for authors to buy their own books AND get paid royalties.

I hurry up to read and delete e-mails like that. They make my head hurt.:e2bummed:

jamiehall
02-26-2008, 06:35 AM
And how agents, like Kristen (http://pubrants.blogspot.com/) for one, encourage their authors to maintain web sites and blogs . . .


So does Rachel Vater (http://raleva31.livejournal.com/52449.html).

emsuniverse
02-26-2008, 08:46 AM
Stodghill isn’t the enemy.

My problem is that I believe he is deliberately spreading misinformation about the actual publishing industry around the PAMB. He's trying to make the major publishers look awful so the PAers will feel fortunate and grateful to have landed at such a wonderful publisher like PA.

In fact, here's a clip from his website (http://www.dickstodghill.com/tipsforwriters.htm):


www.agentquery.com (http://www.agentquery.com/)
www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pubwarn.htm (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pubwarn.htm)
The first will be instructive in numerous ways, including how to write a query letter.
The second will list agents to stay away from. It does the same with publishers. If you write for PublishAmerica don't be frightened by what is said about the company. Most of the material is outdated.


That right there is why I have a problem with him. He's basically saying "Do your research, go to Writers Beware and P&E to stay up to date because they keep such a detailed list of good and bad agents and publishers... but don't pay attention to the stuff said about PA, that's all lies!"

Jersey Chick
02-26-2008, 08:57 AM
I have never read anything by him, so I can't comment on that - but some of the "advice" he gives is just plain wrong. That's not impugning him as a person or a writer, but as someone who is giving advice on something that he shouldn't. And it isn't even offered up as an "in my opinion". From what I've seen, it comes across as "This is a fact." And it's not.

IceCreamEmpress
02-26-2008, 09:02 AM
We’re in agreement about the silliness of his agent/blog diatribe, but he’s entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he's very seriously misinformed and doing other people a disservice by proclaiming absolute falsehoods as gospel. It's hard to see why he would be doing this; he appears to be an intelligent and literate person.

The two options: He's an intelligent and literate person whose critical faculties completely desert him on one subject; or, he's spreading these falsehoods for a reason.

Most people have encountered far more of the latter category of person than the former category in their lifetimes. The former category is actually pretty rare, to the point that when, for instance, a tenured professor of medicine falls for a Nigerian cash-transfer fraud, it makes national news.

I think a lot of folks find it completely bizarre that someone with enough publishing savvy to place stories in national magazines would be ingenuous enough not to understand the incompetence, venality, and utter lack of clue that characterizes PublishAmerica. I think that's why many people speculate about what his motives might be.

Scribhneoir
02-26-2008, 09:59 AM
You’re mistaken about Dick Stodghill—“Pipesmoker,” as you derisively call him. He is not a shill, but a fine writer and a consummate professional. His work appears regularly in mainstay mystery magazines and anthologies, and his writing commands top dollar. Why he chose PA to put out a book is anyone’s guess, nonetheless it doesn’t diminish his worth as a writer.


I've read his stories that have appeared in recent issues of AHMM. (I found them predictable and pedestrian, but that's just my opinion. Obviously the editor liked them.) And if he was offering tips for breaking in to top story markets, that would be one thing. But he isn't. Among other things, he's telling novelists they need a "portfolio" to show to prospective agents, which shows he believes the book world works just like the freelance world. It doesn't.

My guess is he went with PA for the same reason a lot of people do -- he doesn't know the first thing about book publishing. And now that he's there, he's keeping up the illusion that it was a wise thing to do. He might not be an official shill, but the result is the same -- convincing inexperienced authors PA is not a vanity press and that all publishers work just like PA.

Jersey Chick
02-26-2008, 10:00 AM
It's not just the blog comment - there are other instances as well. And if it's something he doesn't know, he shouldn't be offering up advice as gospel. And it isn't now and again - it's every time someone (usually a newbie) asks a question pertaining to getting an agent. He offers up the same inaccurate information.

Queen of Swords
02-26-2008, 12:40 PM
You’re mistaken about Dick Stodghill—“Pipesmoker,” as you derisively call him.

I hope you likewise correct him when he is mistaken. For instance, here he says (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=18575) :

The bad things you may read about PA are written by people who know absolutely nothing about the business and expected to have their book make the best seller lists.

There is a stickied thread in this forum about what professional authors, editors and agents say about PA. That alone should be evidence that he is, at best, misinformed. At worst, he is lying.

He is not a shill, but a fine writer and a consummate professional.

He may be a professional when it comes to journalism, but he doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to getting an agent. Here's another piece of misinformation from him (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16461), from a different thread.

Many won't allow you to spend time blogging or posting on message boards. They do monitor how you're spending your time...

He makes agents sound like stalkers. These kinds of scare tactics ultimately serve to make people feel they're better off with PA.

Why he chose PA to put out a book is anyone’s guess, nonetheless it doesn’t diminish his worth as a writer.

I'm not criticizing his worth as a writer. I am, however, criticizing his statements about agents, about the publishing industry, about PA and about people who criticize PA.

It’s all together possible that the comment was taken from the mouth of an oddball agent—of which there’s no shortage.

Maybe that's where he found this incorrect statement (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24735) as well.

Getting a good agent, one with contacts and who has earned the respect of editors, is difficult if not impossible except on a face-to-face meeting. The reliable agents and agencies are snowed under with mail from people hoping to be taken on as a client. The chance of succeeding that way is extremely remote although you may attract predators.

I'm puzzled about the connection between sending mail to a reliable agent and attracting predators.

Stodghill isn’t the enemy.

When he deceives people who need accurate information, when he browbeats people who are disappointed or frustrated with PA, and when he denigrates people who expose PA, I'll do my best to point it out. It's not a question of who's a friend and who's an enemy.

Queen of Swords
02-26-2008, 12:47 PM
Too much is being made of the silly blog comment.

Oh, there are plenty more silly, offensive, untrue and unhelpful comments from him. It's not just the one. I could find several more if I combed through all the notes I made for the article I wrote about PA.

If he emphasizes professionalism on the private forum and stresses that it's important to improve one's writing skills, that's great. But it doesn't change what he's said elsewhere.

Christine N.
02-26-2008, 03:33 PM
Stodghill: "If you write for PublishAmerica don't be frightened by what is said about the company. Most of the material is outdated."

I'm interested to see how long this remains on his website. He knows better.

Lane, he DOES know better, and I know that, but when we were on the 'other' board together, he staunchly defended PA. His argument was basically that none of us could do any better (despite the fact several of us there HAVE) so why the dislike? Well, I don't know about you, but I'd like to not be laughed at when I tell people who my publisher is, and I'd like to know my work was actually selected based on merit instead of timestamp.

He may be a newspaper and magazine expert, and I know he's a decent fella, but I think he tries to translate the experience to book publishing, which is a different animal. Even non-fiction and fiction have many differences, and I don't know if the really understands all of them. I mean, there is certainly a way to get an agent (and a good one!) by e-mail or snail mail, as long as you do your research and follow submission guidelines.

He's also stated you need a track record to get an agent, which is also completely not true. You need a terrific query and saleable material, which is where most people fall by the wayside. It HELPS if you've had something published, but lots of first-time authors land agents. Probably NOT with their first book, but their first PUBLISHABLE book. Then there's the old standby that no publishers want first time writers either. Then where do publishers find new material? Writers stop writing, move on, die. Publishers NEED new writers that can WRITE to fill their lists. The competition is tough, but they certainly don't turn away a good book because it's someone's first novel. I have at least two friends who have had their first books published this year, with major publishers. You can run out to the bookshop and pick them up. (Actually I saw Toothpaste's book in Target the other day!)

So he's either trying to apply his own magazine and journalism experience to book publisher, or he's just assuming things about book publishing that aren't true. I think it's a little of both.

DaveKuzminski
02-26-2008, 04:30 PM
Stodghill: "If you write for PublishAmerica don't be frightened by what is said about the company. Most of the material is outdated."


Just what constitutes outdated? Anyone know? Five years ago? A year ago? A month? A day? A minute? Someone should ask Stodghill just what he considers outdated. I'm interested in learning and I'll bet he didn't read down the PA listing far enough to see that there is a steady stream of dated incidents involving PA and they've shown no intention of changing their stripes.

TwentyFour
02-26-2008, 05:57 PM
To Mr. Lane,

I for one took up for Mr. Stodgehill on this very board and gave him much more respect than he has given other writers on other boards. We (Christine and I) chatted about publishing, books, stories, etc… he showed little respect toward anyone who differed in opinion whether they had facts glaring in his face or not. I simply stated on that board that “I would not go with PA, but if someone else did, that’s up to them” and a huge downfall of snide remarks about how much better I thought I was than everyone there. I was told my opinion was reflecting what I thought they should do and I was dead wrong. I wondered briefly how my opinion of what “I” would do was wrong for someone else, and soon I figured it out… It wasn’t wrong for “Me” it was wrong for “Them” because they wanted everyone’s approval of their situation, even if it wasn’t for others. That’s why so many get sucked into their ideals; they don’t let others alone and constantly defend PA when PA needs no defense.

The idea of my own self choosing who I send my work to is up to me, not them. I won’t waste a book, whether good or bad, on PA and they cannot accept it. Perhaps they assume they got the better deal, or they don’t care, it’s about being out there to them and they have little time for facts or opinions.

So, Mister Lane, when you say the board here is speaking ill of a good man, I have to tell you that good man has shown he has little respect for anyone other than PA authors and will drop you in a heartbeat when he sees one sign that you no longer like his publisher.

Christine N.
02-26-2008, 06:31 PM
Yeah, I'd have to agree. Having talked with Dick, he's not very respectful toward anyone who differs in opinion. He doesn't want to hear it. Been there, tried that, got snarky remarks for my trouble.

CatSlave
02-26-2008, 08:07 PM
...Stodghill isn’t the enemy.
I have to agree with you here. PA is the real enemy.
I am dismayed at some of the misinformation he posts, but it may be due to his background being in journalism and not mainstream publishing.
His comments overall seem directed to new writers who clearly have not learned the basic skills of writing. Until they master that, getting an agent is a moot point; it's not going to happen. Their work won't stand up to the scrutiny of a professional agent or editor.
The man is obviously articulate and intelligent, and I respect his accomplishments as a writer and journalist.
Besides, I kinda like crusty older guys who say what they mean and don't pull their punches, even if they're sometimes wrong. :)

He may make mistakes, but I've never heard him say 'Oooh La La.'
That's a big plus in my book.

IceCreamEmpress
02-26-2008, 08:14 PM
Part of being intelligent is knowing and admitting when you're wrong.


Mr. Stodghill wastes his, and a lot of other people's, time with his misinformation. People take it seriously both because of his own unquestionable achievements in a related field, and because of the dogmatic tone with which he delivers the misinformation.

Queen of Swords
02-26-2008, 08:31 PM
It's a pity that he doesn't say, "You are a new writer who needs to improve your writing skills before seeking an agent, because your work won't stand up to the scrutiny of a professional agent or editor".

Instead he says, "Agents won't let you blog, they monitor how you spend your time, you'll attract predators if you send your work to a legitimate agent and it's nearly impossible to get a legitimate agent anyway, unless you meet one face to face and you have a portfolio of your previously published work. Oh, and anyone who says anything negative about PA knows nothing about the industry."

Gravity
02-26-2008, 08:44 PM
It's a pity that he doesn't say, "You are a new writer who needs to improve your writing skills before seeking an agent, because your work won't stand up to the scrutiny of a professional agent or editor".

Instead he says, "Agents won't let you blog, they monitor how you spend your time, you'll attract predators if you send your work to a legitimate agent and it's nearly impossible to get a legitimate agent anyway, unless you meet one face to face and you have a portfolio of your previously published work. Oh, and anyone who says anything negative about PA knows nothing about the industry."

That's my problem with him in a nutshell. Whether you're 82 or 22, if you don't know what you're talking about, shut the fark up.

TwentyFour
02-26-2008, 08:45 PM
One has to wonder, is it an old bait and switch? Does he feel the less work out there, the more likely he will get his accepted?

endless rewrite
02-26-2008, 09:03 PM
He probably makes getting an agent sound like an impossible option because he doesn't have one. I am assuming he doesn't have an agent as no legitimate agent would let a client sign with PA or throw a book away on them.

Rodlen
02-26-2008, 09:46 PM
Two quotes:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25943

Came to work and found message from my boss not to open any email that has an attachment that says "Invitation," even if it is from someone you know. This virus is the worst yet and completely destroys the harddrive and there is yet no fix.

Falling for the false virus warning, I see...Check the Symantec web page before you trust stuff like that.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25983

Congrats! Can't wait until mine come. The only thing left to do is promote, promote, promote. I, myself, will be dressing my novel up in fishnet stockings and putting it on the street corner.

Long wait, isn't it?

IceCreamEmpress
02-26-2008, 10:05 PM
One has to wonder, is it an old bait and switch? Does he feel the less work out there, the more likely he will get his accepted?

No, I think he's just operating from inaccurate and outmoded assumptions. He's a short-story writer and a journalist, and neither group has traditionally had agents in the US.

But he's dispensing advice about this to novelists, and it's wrong advice. As to the "well, he just says it to the people who don't write well enough to be professional"--people who CAN write well enough to be professional may well be reading those threads. If they get misinformation from him, especially considering his "I know all, because I am a published journalist and short-story writer, and a war veteran, and 80-something" tone, it could set them back.

I understand that PublishAmerica might work well for him as a printer for his collections of previously-published short stories (although I bet he'd get a much better, and cheaper, product from other vendors). If he confined his advice to stuff he actually knows anything about, he wouldn't be so annoying.

Queen of Swords
02-26-2008, 10:12 PM
As to the "well, he just says it to the people who don't write well enough to be professional"--people who CAN write well enough to be professional may well be reading those threads.

Personally, I don't think it's right to misinform people, whether they write well enough to be commercially published or not. That's like saying that because some people's skills are not up to a certain standard, they don't need or deserve the truth and can be saddled with inaccurate information instead. So on top of their difficulties with writing, they have to cope with misconceptions regarding the publishing industry. I don't believe that's fair to them.

DaveKuzminski
02-26-2008, 11:36 PM
I'm waiting for someone to send out royalty statements by email with a subject title that mimics a known virus subject title so that most of them are caught by the ISPs trying to protect their customers. Then the ISPs can be pointed at as the cause of any delay even if the statements were emailed late to begin with.

IceCreamEmpress
02-26-2008, 11:57 PM
Personally, I don't think it's right to misinform people, whether they write well enough to be commercially published or not. That's like saying that because some people's skills are not up to a certain standard, they don't need or deserve the truth and can be saddled with inaccurate information instead. So on top of their difficulties with writing, they have to cope with misconceptions regarding the publishing industry. I don't believe that's fair to them.

I totally agree with you.

But even if you're looking at it with a Social Darwinism ethic, it's not appropriate because the information is widely dispersed, rather than offered exclusively to the "not good enough".

TwentyFour
02-27-2008, 02:29 AM
He probably makes getting an agent sound like an impossible option because he doesn't have one. I am assuming he doesn't have an agent as no legitimate agent would let a client sign with PA or throw a book away on them.

:Sun:As a matter of fact, I have seen him say it is near impossible to get an agent, or catch their eye, without the ever present portfolio.

PVish
02-27-2008, 02:42 AM
Softening the royalty blow (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25981), perhaps?

One newbie is excited that she will soon get royalties, even though she's not "expecting to get rich."

The first poster gently lets her know not to get her hopes up:
I remember my first royalty check, from a different publisher--I knew it had to be at least $1-2,000. I learned very quickly that its much easier to get excited about them than it is to comprehend the reality of very little money. I believe I made about $13. That was about 8 years ago. Things are looking up though. This last year I made about $600 but that was from multiple books and three publishers. If I didn't enjoy writing I would obviously quit, as the dream of actually making a living at it is a bit tarnished.

I wish you well though! Just don't get too disappointed if it is less than you think it should be.

and another adds:
While excepting the reality of this business and the fact that few become bestsellers, or even sell a hundred books, don't let that keep you from doing everything you can to be a bestseller.
We're dreamers by profession. If you dream small, you're small dreams may come true, HOWEVER, It doesn't cost anything to dream big. Chasing a big dream will make us work harder and will cost us more, what else do you have to do today?
I must add that my dream is not to make a pile of money, but to have millions of readers read my books. Even if half of them read it for free, I'd probably still make a pile of money. Can't be helped.

I'm puzzled by his remark, "Chasing a big dream will make us work harder and will cost us more, what else do you have to do today?" Don't some of the PA authors aspire to be real writers?

and another:
Whether a check is $10, $100 or more than that - its the idea that a book that YOU have written is reality. The book is out in the market and not sitting in a file on your computer where maybe only a friend or a family member might get a chance to read.

While we all are anxious to find out how well our book is selling by the receipt of a royalty check, just remember its only the beginning.

It sounds like some who have been around for a while have realized that big royalty checks don't happen with PA and they're trying to soften the blow for those who are so excited.

Will be interesting to see if PA lets this thread continue after checks come out. They've deleted royalty threads before.

jamiehall
02-27-2008, 02:53 AM
You’re mistaken about Dick Stodghill—“Pipesmoker,” as you derisively call him.

I don't think the nickname "Pipesmoker" is used as a form of derision. I know all PA author names (except ones already here) are often deleted from the quoted material, and nicknames are usually used for ones that are frequently referred to. I think this is to prevent people from being overwhelmed by AW posts if they google their real names, or some purpose similar to that. Whatever the reason, it certainly isn't to make fun. That isn't allowed here. Can anyone help me out by remembering/explaining the reason better?

Personally, I don't think it's right to misinform people, whether they write well enough to be commercially published or not. That's like saying that because some people's skills are not up to a certain standard, they don't need or deserve the truth and can be saddled with inaccurate information instead. So on top of their difficulties with writing, they have to cope with misconceptions regarding the publishing industry. I don't believe that's fair to them.

I agree. It saddles them with a difficult burden that harms them as soon as their writing improves to the point where it can catch the attention of an agent or publisher.

TwentyFour
02-27-2008, 03:10 AM
It's sad really. I've seen many ask questions on PAMB and other boards about PA and it's business, only to be harassed and degraded. I've heard PA supporters trump up the charge that everyone on other boards is against their decision, however they tend to throw it into someones face like PA is the next Harper Collins or Dell. Even the staunchest PA supporter will treat a newbie like crap, then tell them it was the newbies fault for asking such things.

Even Pipe and Frenchie fight at times, now I notice they are kissing hands and acting like long lost pals. Odd how things change.

CatSlave
02-27-2008, 04:30 AM
Softening the royalty blow (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25981), perhaps?

I'm puzzled by his remark, "Chasing a big dream will make us work harder and will cost us more, what else do you have to do today?" Don't some of the PA authors aspire to be real writers?
To me, it sounds like he is saying that in order to dream big and make more sales, you have to invest more money and time to promote your book.

...since PA does none of that for you.

JulieB
02-27-2008, 04:54 AM
The book is out in the market and not sitting in a file on your computer where maybe only a friend or a family member might get a chance to read.

And yet, who beyond your friends and family will read it if you have no chance at distribution beyond what you do yourself?

The answer: Not very many people, most likely.

Afinerosesheis
02-27-2008, 04:55 AM
I am amazed at how that publisher can come between people who once geniunally cared for one another (as far as online friendships go). THAT publisher, not any others it seems. Recently I e-mailed my list about a loss in my family. Many of them were PA authors. I did not receive many replies back at all. That point doesn't matter so much. It is just the fact that I know THAT publisher is to blame for the change of heart toward me. I think it's just a bunch of crapola =(

Now if I were to mosey on over to that board, schmooze and kiss butt I bet things would be different. Hanging out with the toady bugs tarnishes my reputation, I suppose. :) It no longer matters to me personally, but it sure doesn't say a lot for human relations.

BenPanced
02-27-2008, 05:21 AM
The book is out in the market and not sitting in a file on your computer where maybe only a friend or a family member might get a chance to read.
No, it's sitting in a file on PA's computer where only a friend or a family member might get a chance to order it.

TwentyFour
02-27-2008, 06:46 AM
I am amazed at how that publisher can come between people who once geniunally cared for one another (as far as online friendships go). THAT publisher, not any others it seems. Recently I e-mailed my list about a loss in my family. Many of them were PA authors. I did not receive many replies back at all. That point doesn't matter so much. It is just the fact that I know THAT publisher is to blame for the change of heart toward me. I think it's just a bunch of crapola =(

Now if I were to mosey on over to that board, schmooze and kiss butt I bet things would be different. Hanging out with the toady bugs tarnishes my reputation, I suppose. :) It no longer matters to me personally, but it sure doesn't say a lot for human relations.
I received that email, but had some medical problems the past week and have been unable to do much of anything, I did leave you a comment on rep points stating my sorrow for your loss. :(

Rodlen
02-27-2008, 07:20 AM
Join Wikipedia. Check out my first attempts by searcing on "Arirang" at www.wikipedia.com and use it as an example for your own edits. I also added to "cruising" as a search word and intend to add elsewhere also. There are other wiki's where the same technique may be used. Let me know at *censored for safety* if this idea worked for you. Thanks. (I said I was "full of it" tonight.)

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25907

Wikipedia is NOT FREE MARKETING! IT IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA!!

Afinerosesheis
02-27-2008, 07:27 AM
I received that email, but had some medical problems the past week and have been unable to do much of anything, I did leave you a comment on rep points stating my sorrow for your loss. :(

You did, Southern, and some others from here did too. I meant the old PA crowd in my post, some of who sold me out for a publisher. You know some of them.

Thanks all who did leave reps and words of kindness.

JulieB
02-27-2008, 07:48 AM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25907

Wikipedia is NOT FREE MARKETING! IT IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA!!

No, it is not a free marketing site. And someone undid her edit.

Besides, adding or editing information about yourself is generally considered bad form.

emsuniverse
02-27-2008, 09:02 AM
I don't think the nickname "Pipesmoker" is used as a form of derision. I know all PA author names (except ones already here) are often deleted from the quoted material, and nicknames are usually used for ones that are frequently referred to. I think this is to prevent people from being overwhelmed by AW posts if they google their real names, or some purpose similar to that. Whatever the reason, it certainly isn't to make fun. That isn't allowed here. Can anyone help me out by remembering/explaining the reason better?

That's exactly it, especially for the ones that come up around here often. If we type their names in every single time they are mentioned, all that's going to come up will be AW pages. We want to get the truth out about PA itself... Let me make this clear - we aren't making fun of these authors! We know that someday they may figure out that PA sucks and try to start their writing careers over and all their names generate in a Google search are pages upon pages of us. Not the intent.

IceCreamEmpress
02-27-2008, 07:16 PM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25907

Wikipedia is NOT FREE MARKETING! IT IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA!!

And it's already gone. Hooray for Jack.

Jeez Louise, the nerve of these people!

Queen of Swords
02-27-2008, 07:42 PM
Two of the comments in the "history" section for the Wikipedia entry regarding the editing :

A book from a vanity press publisher of ill repute is not worthy of inclusion.

Wikipedia is not free advertisement, no matter what you say on the PAMB.

I'd rather be unpublished than have to resort to this kind of thing (which failed anyway) in an attempt to get publicity.

Jersey Chick
02-27-2008, 07:46 PM
Ouch - guess that idea kinda, sorta backfired... :D

DaveKuzminski
02-27-2008, 07:49 PM
There are occasions when I think we edit out too much information in order to avoid hurt feelings on the PAMB. Why? Because if someone is doing a search on a book title and happens to end up at AW, it might be enough to protect one more writer from being fooled into signing with PA once they see what happened to that book by their friend. After all, the book is technically dead while PA has it. However, I understand it could be eternally embarrassing to its author so it's probably best that only the most egregious instances be unedited such as the book by CancerBoy where not giving the title could cause actual physical harm to people who might otherwise rely upon it for real information.

Rodlen
02-27-2008, 08:20 PM
And it's already gone. Hooray for Jack.

Jeez Louise, the nerve of these people!


Yes, hooray for me. And an IP.

Really, the fact that PA authors get so desperate to do this should say something.

DaveKuzminski
02-27-2008, 08:50 PM
It's easy to understand their desperation. Few PublishAmerica authors are even aware that P&E offers free promotion of their first published books on the P&E sites for a month. Of course, we know why they're unaware. PublishAmerica deletes any posts on their site that mention P&E and any other free services from other sites because that might actually result in sales not by the author.

In fact, a number of PA authors in the past have also had their sites featured as the Authors Site of the month by P&E, so that's a second way we've tried to help those authors.

Going beyond that, P&E has never excluded any books or authors from its annual Readers Poll because they were published by PA. They've always been welcomed equally.

And, of course, P&E is also ready and willing to testify in arbitration hearings regardless of how Vic feels about it. For those who don't know, he objected to P&E testifying but was overruled in a recent hearing. Hi, Vic! ;)

AnneMarble
02-27-2008, 08:54 PM
No, it is not a free marketing site. And someone undid her edit.
It certainly didn't take long.

Besides, adding or editing information about yourself is generally considered bad form.
You can end up in a flamewar if you do that. The owner of a legitimate small press got embroiled in a fight on Wikipedia because she created an entry on her press, simply because she didn't realize it was considered bad form. The entry was finally allowed to stand, but it took a long time -- and the help of other experts who stood up for her press.

brianm
02-27-2008, 10:49 PM
It’s my belief that the PA author who placed that information on Wiki is quite serious about her writing, but she just won't face the truth about PA. It saddens me to see her wasting so much time trying to make something out of that book. She needs to move on and accept the fact that she made a mistake.

BarbJ
02-28-2008, 06:53 AM
It’s my belief that the PA author who placed that information on Wiki is quite serious about her writing, but she just won't face the truth about PA. It saddens me to see her wasting so much time trying to make something out of that book. She needs to move on and accept the fact that she made a mistake.

And this is why I can't accept the idea of an intelligent person encouraging others to join/stick with PA, the dream-smashers. I think - and I can easily be wrong; I've had tons of practise in being wrong - it's an ego thing. Wanting to be a big fish in a small pond is hardly rare, but this pond is toxic.

The negative and factual comments about PA are outdated? I'm sorry; has PA changed in the last few moments and we missed it? Have they started trying to sell books to the public? Stopped banning sincere questioners? Started treated their writers with respect? Stop deceiving for the sake of the mighty buck? Did I blink? It must have been very recent...

Going back to join the other nasty toady bugs. I'd rather be a toady bug than a fly-catcher.

Queen of Swords
02-28-2008, 12:00 PM
A new marketing strategy? (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26021)

I just used my personal corporation (LLC) to establish a press account allowing me to send press releases nation wide to thousands of media outlets at one time. I'm going to release one for my newly released book, <title> this weekend to a targeted group of "Entertainment hot spots" like magazines, news papers, broadcast outlets and news wire info providers. This will cost several hundred dollars each time I do it, but I think it may be WELL worth it for the exposure AND the opportunity to follow up with as many of these "Hot Spots" as I can stand to.

My question is: Would anyone else be interested in doing this? I'm considering offering this as a service to help other authors get their releases out. I thought I'd ask about everyones interest before committing to providing this service to others.

Several hundred dollars each time he does it, with no guarantee that sales will make up the cost or that PA will be able to handle bulk orders from customers. Or any orders from customers who aren't authors, for that matter.

Fortunately the two other authors who replied to this are veterans who said that they would like to see what kind of a return this investment produced before they signed up.

So many of us are starving authors......me anyway. I'm hesitating to spend $60 for a local book festival where I should attend.

On the otherhand, <title> has been on the market for over a year; and I need a new marketing strategy that reaches outside my local area.

This is from the author who tried to use the Wikipedia article for publicity. She seems to realize the limitations of going with PA; as Brian said, it's a pity she doesn't start a new book and consider an actual publisher.

In contrast, I've exchanged a couple of emails with another PA author who's not as experienced with writing and marketing and so on, but who has realized that PA is a vanity press and is determined to get a good publisher for the next book. In the long run, I'd hold out more hope for this author.

JulieB
02-28-2008, 05:38 PM
I can't imagine that strategy would bring in several hundred dollars in sales, much less profits.

If the author knows how to craft and target a release and is willing to hand out a few review copies (there goes more marketing money) then a few sales may result. But without bookstore distribution, this author is most likely facing an uphill battle.

Queen of Swords
02-28-2008, 09:46 PM
From the same thread...

It looks like my targeted "entertainment" release will cost about $350. A full national release is about $600.

But at least you didn't pay to be published.

Another author responds,

I used a service called Send2Press.com on my first book. The press release went out in Aug of 2007. I don't know what the ROI is. Did it accelerate my sales? I don't know as I have not seen a royalty check for this period. I did have alot of hits to my website and the actual press release shows up on google and yahoo and still gets hits everyday on it. That is monitorable. The press release I sent went to regional industry focused, not national. It was $179. Would I do it again? Yes.

I really hope she won't be disappointed with the royalty check that's due to arrive soon.

jamiehall
02-28-2008, 09:50 PM
Several hundred dollars each time he does it, with no guarantee that sales will make up the cost or that PA will be able to handle bulk orders from customers. Or any orders from customers who aren't authors, for that matter.


Even if it wasn't PA, I'd be doubtful too. I've heard terrible things about press releases used as book marketing tools. They cost a lot, and mostly they get ignored or thrown away.

JulieB
02-28-2008, 10:41 PM
I'm here to tell you - editors and news directors get overwhelmed with press releases. Getting hits for your release does not equal publicity.

It helps to target (and I don't mean targeted spam) to people you have a reasonable idea might be interested in your book. Yes, it's more work, but you'll probably get a higher return.

Christine N.
02-29-2008, 01:08 AM
The only way to make a PR work is to add something intersting - tie in your appearance to an event. "Local chic writes chic-lit" isn't very newsworthy to a paper that gets a hundred similar PR's a day.

I only send PR's when I'm doing an event - like a book launch at the library, or visiting my old school for an author visit. A book release ISN'T a good enough reason to send a PR, nor is it a good news story, unless there's something big the author had to overcome writing it, like a disability, or they wrote it while fighting in Iraq.

Otherwise...who cares?

IceCreamEmpress
02-29-2008, 01:23 AM
If that person sends out 5 press releases, it'll cost $1750.

That could actually buy you a bunch of well-produced self-published books that you could sell yourself and keep all the proceeds.

Or it could buy you a couple of college- or graduate-level writing courses at a state university.

Or send you to some writers' conferences.

Tragic waste of money. This person is just "chasing the dragon" now--throwing good money after bad in an effort to recoup his or her losses.

JulieB
02-29-2008, 04:44 AM
I was going to post something much longer, but well, I'm still on cold meds and it seemed like rambling at the time.

Anyway. One thing that often got my attention was the fact the author would be available for an interview - either she/he was going to be in my area, or the publicist would set up a phone interview that wouldn't cost me (meaning my employer, ultimately) anything. (Disclaimer: I was a radio news director, not a book reviewer. Interviewing people was my job. If I reviewed books it would have been unethical for me to have direct contact with authors. So ignore this if you're trying to simply get a review.)

Note the word "publicist." I can't think of a single interview that I did with a self-published author. It's been a few years, so I could be wrong. If I did, then that self-published author had a publicist who put out a professional press packet and (almost always) sent out an ARC or hot off the press review copy.

That kind of thing costs serious dollars. If a self-published (including PA) author makes their money back, then more power to them.

Christine N.
02-29-2008, 04:47 AM
Actually, nowandays, you can make yourself a pretty decent press/marketing kit at home. Just have it bound up at Lulu with the plastic thingys and voila - professional looking booklet. And they're not expensive, but time consuming to do it properly.

You can also do ARC's that way too, if you know how.

PVish
02-29-2008, 04:53 AM
Here's (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26037) an interesting marketing idea.

Adult bookshops, lingerie shops, and biker stores, oh my!

Queen of Swords
02-29-2008, 04:58 AM
Paging Porn Guy!

DaveKuzminski
02-29-2008, 05:07 AM
Here's (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26037) an interesting marketing idea.

Adult bookshops, lingerie shops, and biker stores, oh my!

Adult bookshops! Gasp! To think that I was once accused of being a pornographer on the PAMB and here their authors are trying to place their books in adult bookshops. I'm shocked. Truly shocked.

emsuniverse
02-29-2008, 05:41 AM
Paging Porn Guy!

I honestly wonder what happened to him.

Gravity
02-29-2008, 06:11 AM
I understand he's having a hard time of it. But he's a solid guy; I'm sure he has things firmly in hand. All he has to keep up a steady rhythm, and soon things'll bust out all over.

JimmyD1318
02-29-2008, 06:15 AM
I understand he's having a hard time of it. But he's a solid guy; I'm sure he has things firmly in hand. All he has to keep up a steady rhythm, and soon things'll bust out all over.
:roll:

CatSlave
02-29-2008, 06:16 AM
Here's (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26037) an interesting marketing idea.

Adult bookshops, lingerie shops, and biker stores, oh my!
I guess a lot of bikers read erotic romances while wearing their lingerie. :roll:

What's the latest on our favorite Porn Guy anyway?

Afinerosesheis
02-29-2008, 06:57 AM
I understand he's having a hard time of it. But he's a solid guy; I'm sure he has things firmly in hand. All he has to keep up a steady rhythm, and soon things'll bust out all over.


Goodness gracious, oh my! :D

Jersey Chick
02-29-2008, 07:22 AM
Jeez- I step away from this thread for a little while and when I come back, it's to Hell's Angels wearing bustiers and reading Thea Devine.

try sleeping tonight with that image dancing around in your head. :D

spike
02-29-2008, 07:28 AM
Quickly, before it disappears (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26042):

Please!!!! I have a question ??? I received my first copy a week ago. And I was shocked to see that my illustrations have a lot of smearing in them ....I sent PA a message of concern.... within a few days PA called me at home. PA explained that they might consider looking over my illustrations and FIXING the problem ONLY if i buy 50 copys of my own book .....now after thinking about this, it really dont make any sense to me .. If the book is not in a presentable state I would think PA would fix it with out any purchase by me ....because this could reflect onto the sales of my book.....

REALLY REALLY CONFUSED......

Speechless.

Jersey Chick
02-29-2008, 07:31 AM
Whoa... this is not going to end well. Not at all.

Mel
02-29-2008, 07:38 AM
Sounds like blackmail to me. "Pay us and we might consider it." Shame, shame, shame on you, PA.

tlblack
02-29-2008, 07:51 AM
Sounds like blackmail to me. "Pay us and we might consider it." Shame, shame, shame on you, PA.

Indeed it does.

BarbJ
02-29-2008, 08:14 AM
Sounds like blackmail to me. "Pay us and we might consider it." Shame, shame, shame on you, PA.

Blackmail, demand for bribes, refusal to do the right thing - PA business as usual. They've already deceived this newbie into believing there will be "sales". And the authors don't pay a cent to be published.

It's sad. :e2bummed:

On the other hand, someone is going to read this (before it's gone), recognize the truth, and run away, hopefully into the world of writing reality. PA is losing their subtlety. :D

brianm
02-29-2008, 08:19 AM
If that doesn't clue the author in that PA doesn't care how the book comes out just so long as the author buys copies, then nothing will.

Jersey Chick
02-29-2008, 08:46 AM
So far, the only response was to ask if the illustrations were color. Ah... gotta love the priorites.

Christine N.
02-29-2008, 02:24 PM
Here's (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26037) an interesting marketing idea.

Adult bookshops, lingerie shops, and biker stores, oh my!

Actually it's not a bad idea. I know several erotic romance authors who do this. Not biker stores, but yanno...and they do well with it, because it's different but also applicable. Not like they're trying to sell ER at a Jiffy Lube. Wait a minute...LOL.

We also have a small publisher here in Philly, just on the news the other day, that sells books in many retail outlets besides booktores. BUT...they're usually NOT fiction books, they're niche non-fiction or quirky kinds of coffee table books, and I'm sure this publisher gives Urban Outfitters a good discount and delivers books without problem.

brianm
02-29-2008, 04:34 PM
Not like they're trying to sell ER at a Jiffy Lube. Wait a minute...LOL.

And all along, I thought you were the prim and proper type. Oh, my...

:D

Sparhawk
02-29-2008, 06:32 PM
Whoa... this is not going to end well. Not at all.

PA at its finest.

Mel
02-29-2008, 06:45 PM
So far, the only response was to ask if the illustrations were color. Ah... gotta love the priorites.

Because, of course, black ink would never smear. As if it makes a difference anyway.

AnneMarble
02-29-2008, 07:14 PM
Because, of course, black ink would never smear. As if it makes a difference anyway.
And the thread is gone.

I hope the author finds a better home for both her work and her posts. :)

Joanna_S
02-29-2008, 08:44 PM
Man, that's heartbreaking. This is so indefensible. So wrong. And they called her -- probably making sure the blackmail didn't have a paper trail. Swine.

-- Joanna

Saundra Julian
02-29-2008, 09:08 PM
She seemed like a pretty smart cookie so let's hope she finds her way here or at the very least smell the big rat and gets out of her contract.

ResearchGuy
02-29-2008, 10:12 PM
She seemed like a pretty smart cookie so let's hope she finds her way here or at the very least smell the big rat and gets out of her contract.
It would be less wasteful and more cost-effective to just offer cash for cancellation of the contract. Yes, that does work. No whining, no recriminations, just a straight offer of payment in exchange for contract termination. If one would rather accept the mistake and move on, that is an efficient way to do it.

--Ken

emsuniverse
02-29-2008, 10:56 PM
PA has this planned out already:

No paper trail, no tangible proof they said anything like that, the author will make trouble, get banned, and shunned by the PA community.

DaveKuzminski
02-29-2008, 11:09 PM
It would be less wasteful and more cost-effective to just offer cash for cancellation of the contract. Yes, that does work. No whining, no recriminations, just a straight offer of payment in exchange for contract termination. If one would rather accept the mistake and move on, that is an efficient way to do it.

--Ken

I can't believe what you're suggesting. That's just fundamentally wrong to reward any business in such a manner after it deliberately set out to block its authors from reaching their goals and dreams so they'd have to self-purchase only to find that the same methods of shoddy editing, high prices, and low discounts their publisher used to discourage retail purchases will also prevent them from reaching those markets where they wanted their work seen. It's just wrong, wrong, wrong.

Mel
02-29-2008, 11:21 PM
The site was down a short time earlier, then that post was gone. Seems it's down again. More sweeping, PA?

burgy61
02-29-2008, 11:45 PM
It would be less wasteful and more cost-effective to just offer cash for cancellation of the contract. Yes, that does work. No whining, no recriminations, just a straight offer of payment in exchange for contract termination. If one would rather accept the mistake and move on, that is an efficient way to do it.

--Ken

This kind of thinking could open up a new cash cow for PA.

I can't believe what you're suggesting. That's just fundamentally wrong to reward any business in such a manner after it deliberately set out to block its authors from reaching their goals and dreams so they'd have to self-purchase only to find that the same methods of shoddy editing, high prices, and low discounts their publisher used to discourage retail purchases will also prevent them from reaching those markets where they wanted their work seen. It's just wrong, wrong, wrong.

I agree, it's like your dreams are being blackmailed.

Queen of Swords
02-29-2008, 11:47 PM
PA might prefer that the author buy the books because that way it looks like their usual semi-legit author-to-publisher transaction.

If, on the other hand, she just handed the cash over, that would be blackmail. Got to preserve the facade.

burgy61
02-29-2008, 11:58 PM
PA might prefer that the author buy the books because that way it looks like their usual semi-legit author-to-publisher transaction.

If, on the other hand, she just handed the cash over, that would be blackmail. Got to preserve the facade.

This is a good point, but PA could offer authors who want out a chance to buy their contracts back. It would be easy for them to include a gag clause to the buy back. If an author wants out bad enough they would take the deal and nobody would know. In this manner it wouldn't hurt their appearance of being a traditional publisher.

DaveKuzminski
03-01-2008, 12:15 AM
This kind of thinking could open up a new cash cow for PA.



I agree, it's like your dreams are being blackmailed.

Speaking of which, PA tried that very tactic some years ago. Just read back through the original NEPAT to find references to it. It backfired on PA because they were willing to sell things they didn't have to the authors in exchange for termination.

They also tried using a gag order in the buyback. That also backfired because it prevented the authors from verifying to any prospective publishers they submitted to that they had the full rights returned.

ResearchGuy
03-01-2008, 12:48 AM
I can't believe what you're suggesting. That's just fundamentally wrong . . . .
Dave, if you omit the messianic emotionalism, it is a business deal, plain and simple, an exchange of something of value (money in this case) for early termination of a contract. There is nothing illegal or immoral about such transactions. They happen every day. Have you ever signed a contract for cell phone service? You pay to terminate it early if you choose to. Signed a contract to buy a house and changed your mind? Your deposit was probably forfeited in exchange for the cancellation. Been paid two-weeks' wages in lieu of notice to be laid off? That was payment for early termination of contract. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

--Ken

P.S. I am not "suggesting" it, I am saying that I know for a fact that this has been done, with no recriminations, no resort to lawyers or arbitration, no anger -- just a simple business decision to buy out the contract. Everyone was satisfied with the outcome. Does this happen often? I have no idea. But it has happened.

triceretops
03-01-2008, 01:04 AM
Regardless, this is a new low for PA. That they would resort to this tactic for income, is stunning. More stunning, I guess. This is probably one of the most damaging tactics I've ever heard them use with one of their authors/customers. No wonder it was taken down so quickly. I get the feeling that PA never expected that private telephone communication to find its way back to the PAMB for all eyes to see. And, as said before, no verifiable trace or evidence. How clever.

So, now it might cost a PAer $500.00 to get a formatting issue repaired.

Wonderful.

PA lurkers...this is a wakeup call. Did you see this? Do you understand what's going on here?

Tri

ResearchGuy
03-01-2008, 01:08 AM
Regardless, this is a new low for PA. That they would resort to this tactic for income, is stunning. . . .
Stunning, brazen, appalling, and I think downright stupid. If an author initiates an offer to terminate for a fee, that is one thing. But what amounts to PA-initiated extortion -- and cost-ineffective extortion at that! -- is quite another. BTW, the offer also underlines PA's huge markup over production cost and helps to verify speculations about the vicinity in which they hit break-even.

IMO.

--Ken

Christine N.
03-01-2008, 01:17 AM
I agree, Ken, kill fees aren't uncommon. And if it's the author doing the terminating, it's a fair way to end the contract.

Just make sure PA give you a detailed invoice of everything they've spent on the book thus far, make sure it's right, and then pay the invoice.

I doubt PA would let anybody walk away free and clear, but if behaved like a reputable business it's a perfectly reasonable transaction.

Khazarkhum
03-01-2008, 04:22 AM
If the author is smart, she could take it to Small Claims court.

All she'd have to do is call a printer or publisher and ask them what they do in that situation (smeared illustrations). If she can get it in writing (like an email) even better.

Then PA would have to defend the actions in court. And most judges take a dim view of companies ripping people off. A good judge will ask why the author is expected to pay for PA's mistake.

It could be a real disaster for PA: it could end up on something like "People's COurt" or "Judge Judy".

DaveKuzminski
03-01-2008, 04:30 AM
You seem to miss one critical point, Ken. Those other contracts specify termination fees. PA's doesn't.

Now would you mind turning down the volume on your opinion that I have a messianic complex? Really, it ill becomes you. All I'm concerned with is seeing that others receive justice. If that concept is too foreign for you to understand, then perhaps you should put me on ignore.

JimmyD1318
03-01-2008, 04:34 AM
If the author is smart, she could take it to Small Claims court.

All she'd have to do is call a printer or publisher and ask them what they do in that situation (smeared illustrations). If she can get it in writing (like an email) even better.

Then PA would have to defend the actions in court. And most judges take a dim view of companies ripping people off. A good judge will ask why the author is expected to pay for PA's mistake.

It could be a real disaster for PA: it could end up on something like "People's COurt" or "Judge Judy".

Problem with that is if you are under contract with PA you can't take them to court. Only to arbitration. I feel sorry for this person, this a new low for PA indeed.

ResearchGuy
03-01-2008, 06:29 AM
. . . seeing that others receive justice. . . . .
Not always a self-evident concept. Plato had a few things to say about it in The Republic, by way of his protagonist Socrates and his companions.

--Ken

DaveKuzminski
03-01-2008, 06:49 AM
Not always a self-evident concept. Plato had a few things to say about it in The Republic, by way of his protagonist Socrates and his companions.

--Ken

You might want to use the same mirror next time you discuss how you saved a book from being lost to PA. You do things for writers. I do things for writers. We just do it in different arenas. Mine's just a bit more dangerous, perhaps, since I confront scams up front and in their face and receive threats for some of my efforts. Enough said, I would hope.

brianm
03-01-2008, 06:51 AM
If the author is smart, she could take it to Small Claims court.

That's not possible because PA's contract contains an arbitration clause. All disputes must be resolved under the rules of the American Arbitration Association and the hearing must be held in Frederick, Maryland.

Arbitration hearings are not cheap and the majority of PA authors, IMO, can't afford to file for a hearing. Then there are the costs of travel, lodging, food, and other miscellaneous unforeseen expenses.

For PA, it's a smart clause to have in their contract. For the authors, not so much.

JulieB
03-01-2008, 07:02 AM
Wow, just catching up with this thread. That's all I can say about that. Wow.

Ken and Dave: Do I have to get all mom on you two? Let's play nice, boys. You're on the same team. ;-)

Jersey Chick
03-01-2008, 07:14 AM
I'm a little late to the party - but regarding any termination fees - those are usually pretty clearly spelled out in any contract. A prospective buyer knows (or should know) what they're signing before they ink the paper. I know it's in my cell agreement, and it was in the contract for my house. An entity can't just come along later on and change the terms of the agreement without both parties agreeing to it. In writing, most likely. Otherwise, it's just plain wrong and I hope this author fights back to the best of her ability.

Monkey
03-01-2008, 07:21 AM
PA explained that they might consider looking over my illustrations and FIXING the problem ONLY if i buy 50 copys of my own book .....now after thinking about this, it really dont make any sense to me .. If the book is not in a presentable state I would think PA would fix it with out any purchase by me

(bolding and underlining are mine)

PA might consider it after she's bought 50 copies. How generous.

If someone pays me 50 bucks, I might consider jumping off a building. Then again, if they pay the $50 and I still don't even consider it, I haven't broken any promises...I said *might*.

This is in no way a promise to do anything. It's just telling the author "shut up and buy".

REALLY REALLY CONFUSED......

Not anymore. When a post like this gets deleted, eyes are opened.

ResearchGuy
03-01-2008, 07:34 AM
You might want to use the same mirror next time . . .
You are reading WAY too much into my comment (and somewhat too much into earlier one). Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

--Ken

Khazarkhum
03-01-2008, 09:31 AM
That's not possible because PA's contract contains an arbitration clause. All disputes must be resolved under the rules of the American Arbitration Association and the hearing must be held in Frederick, Maryland.

Arbitration hearings are not cheap and the majority of PA authors, IMO, can't afford to file for a hearing. Then there are the costs of travel, lodging, food, and other miscellaneous unforeseen expenses.

For PA, it's a smart clause to have in their contract. For the authors, not so much.

If you live close enough, or have family that does, it's worth the shot.

BTW, is the arbitration binding???

brianm
03-01-2008, 11:20 AM
BTW, is the arbitration binding???

Yes.

Christine N.
03-01-2008, 03:57 PM
That's true - if PA wanted to have a kill fee, it'd have to be in the contract. As I said, if they acted like a reputable business, this wouldn't be an issue.

I mean, isn't that a wake-up call. The PUBLISHER won't correct a sub-standard product? They'd LET a product like that go into the marketplace? No publisher I know would do such a thing.

Just another day at PA.

Afinerosesheis
03-01-2008, 04:55 PM
I think that post is the worst one I've ever seen. I also think that it sums up everything. If people don't get the idea reading that, then they just won't get it at all.
They will say she is lying. =(

Mel
03-01-2008, 05:54 PM
Problem is, how many did get to read it before it was zapped? Many over there don't know about AW, and those who do, well, a lot of them refuse to read here. If that member puts it up again it won't last long and if they question why it's disappeared those posts will also go bye-bye.

As always, it's a no win situation.

Saundra Julian
03-01-2008, 07:02 PM
If she posts that again, she will go bye-bye!

ResearchGuy
03-01-2008, 07:55 PM
. . .

I mean, isn't that a wake-up call. The PUBLISHER won't correct a sub-standard product? They'd LET a product like that go into the marketplace? No publisher I know would do such a thing. . . .
It is just so strange. That was an author who otherwise was apparently ok with the deal. By not fixing the problem, PA loses that author as a bulk-purchase customer and as a shill. Not to mention that to demand that the author buy 50 copies of a defective product in order to get the problem fixed for future printings is simply bizarre -- one of most damning single reports I have seen about PA's practices (matching in intensity one astonishing report a couple of years ago of mega-botched spell-check mal-editing, in which real place names in a memoir were absurdly changed).

I have to wonder whether the botched printing (smeared ink, was it?) was the result of an inferior, poorly maintained, or badly managed in-house digital book printer. If one book was fouled up, then I'd expect that to be part of a pattern. That would fit what leaks out about sloppy procedures and low standards in all other respects.

A couple of months ago, a local PA author I know (an exceedingly happy one, by the way) was complaining that the latest run of books had a very poor cover (color was wrong -- maybe other problems with the cover). I'll have to follow up to find out if the misprinted books were replaced by PA without complaint. Last I saw, that author was enthusiastic again, so I figure the problem had to have been fixed.

--Ken

Christine N.
03-01-2008, 07:58 PM
Yep. Unless they were saying they'd ONLY fix them if she agreed to buy 50 copies of the FIXED version. I mean, why should they spend the money to fix it if there's no guaranteed return? If the author won't buy copies after the fix it, they've wasted their money.

That makes more sense to me, in that warped PA version of the word 'sense'.

IceCreamEmpress
03-01-2008, 08:09 PM
Yep. Unless they were saying they'd ONLY fix them if she agreed to buy 50 copies of the FIXED version. I mean, why should they spend the money to fix it if there's no guaranteed return? If the author won't buy copies after the fix it, they've wasted their money.

That makes more sense to me, in that warped PA version of the word 'sense'.

This is why PA is never a good choice, in my opinion. They're incompetent as well as venal, and venal as well as incompetent.

ResearchGuy
03-01-2008, 08:30 PM
Yep. Unless they were saying they'd ONLY fix them if she agreed to buy 50 copies of the FIXED version. . . .
Yeah, THAT would make sense. Still unacceptable but at least logical. Now that you point it out, it has to be what they meant.

--Ken

DaveKuzminski
03-01-2008, 10:37 PM
Yeah, THAT would make sense. Still unacceptable but at least logical. Now that you point it out, it has to be what they meant.

--Ken

Except PA never interprets contracts in favor of the author. PA always interprets contract provisions in its favor. That leaves only one conclusion. PA can't be trusted to mean they'd fix the problem before shipping off any products to the author forced to pay for 50 copies to MAYBE see the problem fixed. Viewing the situation from PA's warped logic, PA might very well figure that the author wouldn't have enough money after such a transaction to afford taking PA to arbitration. All in all, that would present PA with a win-win situation.

Queen of Swords
03-01-2008, 10:49 PM
Pipesmoker gets it right (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25981)

On the topic of royalties :

The best advice is keep expectations low.

Tell me, if PA was such a great publisher, why would expectations need to be kept low? And how low can you go? With PA, you will know!

spike
03-01-2008, 11:27 PM
I have to wonder whether the botched printing (smeared ink, was it?) was the result of an inferior, poorly maintained, or badly managed in-house digital book printer. If one book was fouled up, then I'd expect that to be part of a pattern. That would fit what leaks out about sloppy procedures and low standards in all other respects.

--Ken
That's what I thought, initially. I would assume that Lightning Source would replace a defective product.

Then I had to wonder that if Lightning Source did offer to make some sort of tangible appology, like copies of the book, would PA pass that on to the author? Or try to sell them to the author? Either way, PA sucks.

IceCreamEmpress
03-01-2008, 11:57 PM
That's what I thought, initially. I would assume that Lightning Source would replace a defective product.

They do.

PA has a much-ballyhooed printing setup now, though. So it may have been their bad.

Mel
03-02-2008, 12:06 AM
Pipesmoker gets it right (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25981)

On the topic of royalties :



Tell me, if PA was such a great publisher, why would expectations need to be kept low? And how low can you go? With PA, you will know!

Didn't someone once complain that PA said the author owed them? And wasn't that on their statement? Asking because I may be misremembering.

Tsu Dho Nimh
03-02-2008, 12:18 AM
If I remember the PA contract correclty, they promised a suitable product.

SMEARED is not suitable. She could take them to arbritraiton over the sub-standard product.

BenPanced
03-02-2008, 02:59 AM
But then PA would turn around and say they have to recoup the loss on reprinting the damaged product. Even if it is their fault.

Mel
03-02-2008, 05:45 AM
Another from the royalty thread (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25981)
I don't expect to get any money at all from Publish America. You should read what is said about Publish America on this website: http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/peba.htm Scroll down till you get to Publish America. Anyway my book price is so high that no wonder it's not being bought by the public. Who in their right mind would pay $14.95 for a book?

Brave soul to post this and probably knows it won't stay. The link alone would seal the deal with PA zapping it.

Gravity
03-02-2008, 05:52 AM
The post is now 10 minutes old. Okay folks, lay your bets. It'll be gone by when? I give it 35 more minutes.

Afinerosesheis
03-02-2008, 06:05 AM
1030pm est

Mel
03-02-2008, 06:07 AM
45 min. Give them time to eat a late supper and have a few drinks to unwind. It's the weekend! Oh, and they'll have to log in here to find out about it.

DaveKuzminski
03-02-2008, 06:13 AM
But then PA would turn around and say they have to recoup the loss on reprinting the damaged product. Even if it is their fault.

What damaged product? PA is print on demand. There shouldn't be any books in stock. If there are, then they'll have to pay tax in accordance with Thor Power Tools v. IRS.

Mel
03-02-2008, 06:50 AM
Reply (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=25981)to the last poster
I know people are paying that for my book which is only 84 pages. It is a bigger book with a cover that brings whats inside to life! HEAVENS SAKES...Are you out trying to sell your book? There is alot of work already done..Check out some of the book prices...14.95 isn't bad...

May be a bigger book, but according to her website it sits at around 37,000 words. Too pricey. As always with PA.

"Are you out trying to sell your book?" :rant:

Afinerosesheis
03-02-2008, 06:56 AM
HEAVENS SAKES "Please don't go busting any happy authors bubbles!"

I am going to beat my head against the wall now. If I lapse into a coma please do not wake me.

Mel
03-02-2008, 06:58 AM
And she comes back again with:
I'm sorry for being so rude although, why do you come to publish america board and give sites that down grade? I don't think it is right at all.. I'm very happy with my book and it's price and with Publish America and Please don't go busting any happy authors bubbles!

Newsflash: authors, writers, whatever should not live in "bubbles." That's a dangerous place to put yourself.

Mel
03-02-2008, 06:59 AM
No, no, no. Don't beat your head, please. Rest it on a soft pillow and if needed use a cold compress to ease the pain.

JulieB
03-02-2008, 07:32 AM
A quick check at Amazon shows that both books are the same size. The author who pointed to P&E has an 88 page book. The second author has an 84-page book. They're both $14.95.

Afinerosesheis
03-02-2008, 08:26 AM
No, no, no. Don't beat your head, please. Rest it on a soft pillow and if needed use a cold compress to ease the pain.


A quick check at Amazon shows that both books are the same size. The author who pointed to P&E has an 88 page book. The second author has an 84-page book. They're both $14.95.


I am halfway to oblivion now. I see nothing, I hear nothing. I am in a good, happy place away from bubbles (is it kool aide?), overpriced books, "buy 50 books and we might fix your errors", and all other publishing woes.

;):e2cloud9::e2cloud9::e2cloud9:;)

Khazarkhum
03-02-2008, 08:35 AM
I didn't get published in time for the up coming payment. I called PA the other day and I was so impressed on the answers that I was given to my questions.

This is from Leslie47302.

Now, just who is she that she can CALL PA?

JulieB
03-02-2008, 08:42 AM
Now, just who is she that she can CALL PA?

Someone who spent two minutes looking for the number.

Scribhneoir
03-02-2008, 08:54 AM
This is from Leslie47302.

Now, just who is she that she can CALL PA?

She's exactly the kind of person PA wants to talk to. She had questions about buying her own book.


I didn't get published in time for the up coming payment. I called PA the other day and I was so impressed on the answers that I was given to my questions.
I had many questions on ordering copies.
I can't wait til I get a check.
I hope everyone gets a nice one! It has to be a great feeling! http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif good luck

Monkey
03-02-2008, 09:01 AM
From the same thread:
(bolding mine)

I highly recommend that potential authors fully research their choice of publishers before submitting their manuscripts. Then they won't be disappointed when their chosen publisher provides the contractual services. An unknown author with an unknown book title will not be known to the public without a lot of luck or a lot of publicity. Only a handfull of name authors receive the promotional support from their publshers that some new authors expect. Since PublishAmerica accepts book that would be rejected by the New York Houses because their market potential is limited; all PA books cannot be expected to gain reknown just because they are "published." An author who expects differently needs to study the writing business; it's not for sissies. Just because a book is published does not mean it is a great book. It means another new author has been given a chance to compete in a market that leaves little room for newcomers.


Someone hasn't been drinking their kool-aid...

Jersey Chick
03-02-2008, 09:39 AM
Oy. Someone get Rose an ice pack - when she comes to, she's going to need it. :D

That post is still there - Infomonster must be out enjoying a Saturday night.

$15 for an 85 pp book... My Strunk and White's Elements of Style is 85 pp (not counting foreward, glossary, afterword) and it was $9.95. And it serves a very important purpose.

Yanno, maybe I'll join Rose - can someone get me an icepack as well? :D

Queen of Swords
03-02-2008, 02:50 PM
6:18 am Toronto time, and the post still exists. :)

Christine N.
03-02-2008, 03:47 PM
My two print books are $14.95... but are near or over 200 pages each. (Just as comparison, you know.)

TwentyFour
03-02-2008, 06:48 PM
I can't find the post, they deleted it and left all the rest.

Mel
03-02-2008, 07:15 PM
Looks like they moved the thread to the private area.

Jersey Chick
03-02-2008, 08:39 PM
Well, can't have the newcomers thinking that PA might be (insert gasp here) trying to extort money from one of their "happy" authors for a problem that is theirs to begin with, now, can we?

Infomonster must've near keeled over when they read that post. I bet smoke rose from someone's head or out of their ears...

ETA:
Whoa.... from Pipesmoker:
Several threads on the subject of royalties may be found on this message board. Most of those who post are eagerly anticipating a check for a substantial amount of money. For the vast majority it is time for a reality check. (snipped)... If you truly want to join the ranks of the Stephen Kings, John Grishams and Sue Graftons, remember the years of hard work they put in to get where they are. It can be done, but only if you, too, are willing to pay your dues. Having a book published by PA doesn't cut it. So keep your expectations low. If your check is small, don't blame the publisher, just get back to work. (emphasis mine)

Hmm... some truth coming through...

Mel
03-02-2008, 08:58 PM
Several threads on the subject of royalties may be found on this message board. Most of those who post are eagerly anticipating a check for a substantial amount of money. For the vast majority it is time for a reality check.
Amazon has more than 17 million books for sale. What are the chances of someone buying yours? Are you well known in the field of literature? Are you a celebrity in the world of entertainment, politics, sports? Is your father the president, are you seen daily on CNN or MSNBC, are you a movie or TV star,does your name appear regularly on the New York Times list of best sellers?
If not, forget an over-the-rainbow outlook. Having a book published doesn't mean people will be rushing out to buy it. Even among professional writers of fiction, very few earn enough to live on their earnings from books. Some do, most do not.
If you truly want to join the ranks of the Stephen Kings, John Grishams and Sue Graftons, remember the years of hard work they put in to get where they are. It can be done, but only if you, too, are willing to pay your dues. Having a book published by PA doesn't cut it.

Ouch!


So keep your expectations low. If your check is small, don't blame the publisher, just get back to work. Until the day comes when your name is known, when you have an energetic publicist, when you have an agent capable of selling your work to the mainline houses, be pleased if you make any money at all - and get back to work because the road ahead is long and loaded with detours. Only a few make it to the finish line, yet the possibility exists for those who persevere.

:whip:

Saundra Julian
03-02-2008, 09:55 PM
He comes thisclose, doesn't he?

Christine N.
03-02-2008, 10:07 PM
I always love the 'don't blame the publisher' line. Sure, they only have so much control, but they have a far bigger reach and pocketbook than the typical author.

How about just a publisher that actually markets their products to people you don't know? Hey, even if you don't make out like you'd hoped, at least you know someone made an effort.

The writer can promote, sure, but they better save some time for writing their next book.

TwentyFour
03-03-2008, 01:24 AM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26075

Now someone else has mentioned PA related Bad Press:

I just received an email from someone unknown who sent me links regarding P.A.

Although I have heard some grumblings before I am just wondering if anyone has seen this website???

I have never had any problems with P.A.

If this is slander perhaps someone from P.A. should look into it?

http://www.wizardessbooks.com/html/PA_stories.htm


Someone answered with:

I have come to varying conclusions regarding these kind of articles. I won't get overly controverial by delving into the various aspects of those conclusions, but I will say that there are plenty of books that wouldn't exist without PA. Most of the people published by PA would not be able to find an opening with more exclusive publishing houses. Does that make PA "evil" in some way, for actually spending their own time and resources to publish books that other publishers don't want to print?



Bolding mine.

I recently received a request via myspace to advertise someones novel on my page, it was a $39.00 PA book. I politely told him I would not support a PA novel or buy one since I don't approve of their business. He politely thanked me and said he was trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I wished him luck and gave him the link to P&E and AW, as well as a few other writing forums. His book was Christian, so I instantly thought of the Christian Writing forum I was a member of. I hope he enjoys it.

Jersey Chick
03-03-2008, 01:29 AM
I have come to varying conclusions regarding these kind of articles. I won't get overly controverial by delving into the various aspects of those conclusions, but I will say that there are plenty of books that wouldn't exist without PA.

And there are reasons for this - some because of small markets, but some because these are books that are not - for whatever reason - publishable.

Most of the people published by PA would not be able to find an opening with more exclusive publishing houses. Does that make PA "evil" in some way, for actually spending their own time and resources to publish books that other publishers don't want to print?

That's not what makes PA "evil". **sigh**

Queen of Swords
03-03-2008, 01:53 AM
No, that makes PA a charity organization operating at a loss out of sheer altruism. That's why it sends out such low royalty checks.

Christine N.
03-03-2008, 02:47 AM
Gone, but not forgotten.

Queen of Swords
03-03-2008, 08:03 PM
Writing to PA (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26080)

If I wanted to contact a head honcho at PA, to whom would I address a letter?

I wonder if anyone will suggest addressing it to "Dear Author Support Team".

CatSlave
03-03-2008, 08:47 PM
So, how many former or present PA authors here have received their 1099s yet?
Do they appear to be accurate?

ResearchGuy
03-03-2008, 09:03 PM
So, how many former or present PA authors here have received their 1099s yet?
Do they appear to be accurate?
I'll ask the two PA authors I will (probably) see at a meeting this week. Both should have had at least ten bucks in royalties in 2007. At least, I'll ask if I can work up that much effrontery.

--Ken

brianm
03-03-2008, 10:23 PM
Even if PA fails to send each author a 1099 Misc, the author is still required to file one with the IRS.

Additionally, I'm guessing many PA authors file 1040EZ forms. If they receive a 1099 Misc, they can no longer use a 1040EZ form to file their taxes. They must file a schedule C or C-EZ, a schedule SE, and a 1040.

JulieB
03-03-2008, 11:17 PM
It's not too difficult to fill out a substitute 1099 form, especially with electronic tax software. I thought I was going to have to do that when one of my clients went under, but I did get a 1099 out of 'em.

Khazarkhum
03-04-2008, 12:00 AM
I've been wondering about the 1099s, too. Has there been any further discussion at the PA board?

Queen of Swords
03-04-2008, 12:16 AM
Wow, the thread asking about the "head honcho" at PA got deleted. Amazing how paranoid they can be. But here's one of the posts on the royalty thread (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26072), from someone who must've gotten one of PA's $0.00 checks.

i was looking forward to this day .........i actually thought that at least my sibs would have bought my book. I guess they expect a free copy.......did not sell even one book....oh well what did i expect....at least my book is in print.

The subsequent posts don't exactly hint of success via PA either.

Most of us on this board enjoy equally poor revenues from our books, but I don’t regret doing something I wanted to do, even if the results aren’t as spectacular as I’d hoped for. My royalties were bad enough that I forgot to send PA my change of address, so I probably won't even receive a statement.

The PAMB can often be rah-rah, everyone else is jealous of us, our books have the best binding and covers on the market. But come royalty check time, different songs are sung. Many of them dirges.

stormie
03-04-2008, 12:20 AM
This is out-of-sync with what is now being discussed here, but it bothers me. She refers to her info as coming from Delacorte at a workshop.
We don't like to share our ideas, our work, our masterpiece, until it is finished. Someone might steal it. However, one must learn to overcome this obstacle when trying to break into the enchanted land of the published.

Editors want to hear your pitch. Sometimes, authors are contracted based upon an idea. Many publishing companies buy books from book packagers. These are companies that have employees who sit around a conference table, buzzing ideas back and forth until they have a winner. They pitch it to a publisher, get a deal, write it, and boom – done. Didn’t know that? Neither did I, until I went to a writer’s conference and heard it from an editor at Delacorte. So you must be comfortable with sharing and pitching.
The original message is here (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26069).

ResearchGuy
03-04-2008, 01:03 AM
This is out-of-sync with what is now being discussed here, but it bothers me. She refers to her info as coming from Delacorte at a workshop.

The original message is here (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26069).
Google "book packagers" Delacorte and see what you find.

One example: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/27/books/27pack.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Quoting in part:

In many cases, editors at Alloy — known as a "book packager" — craft proposals for publishers and create plotlines and characters before handing them over to a writer (or a string of writers).Sounds to me like the poster had heard accurately.

--Ken

P.S. See AW's own Jenna Glatzer on book packagers: http://www.absolutewrite.com/site/book_packaging.htm

P.P.S. I myself got a writer together with an agent who was apparently working with a book packager. Nice advance for the writer and a half year later the book is on its way to print.

Christine N.
03-04-2008, 01:09 AM
Doesn't bother me. Yes, there are many book packagers, and yes, that's pretty much how they develop package series. I don't know that many authors are contracted ONLY on an idea, but many get multi-book deals on a single finished book.

And yes, a writer should develop a good pitch and practice it before seeing an agent or publisher at a conference.

It's not totally off base. I know a few agents that sometimes look for writers for a specific book package project. They're legit but not in the AAR, because the AAR doesn't allow members to sell to packagers or something.

Jersey Chick
03-04-2008, 01:14 AM
A lot of them are for series - like Nancy Drew or Sweet Valley High. But I don't think they are really a threat to authors, per se.

Gravity
03-04-2008, 01:14 AM
The very fact the poster mentioned going to a writers conferece should be enough to get it pulled, like now. Because I've been to a ton of these (taught there too), and I can tell you, when the subject of PA comes up, Katie bar the door!

Jersey Chick
03-04-2008, 01:15 AM
Until joining here, I'd never even heard of PA. I don't know a soul printed by them (aside from the ones here, again) and the few conferences I've gone to, no one has mentioned them. Weird.

ResearchGuy
03-04-2008, 01:16 AM
A lot of them are for series - like Nancy Drew or Sweet Valley High. But I don't think they are really a threat to authors, per se.
They are not a threat, they are an opportunity for writers (that is, for professional writers who seek to make a living from the work).

--Ken

Jersey Chick
03-04-2008, 01:20 AM
Yep - we all know that PA is the only real threat, eh? ;) Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink. Say no more.

Afinerosesheis
03-04-2008, 01:32 AM
So, how many former or present PA authors here have received their 1099s yet?
Do they appear to be accurate?

I did get a 1099 misc around the first week of Feb. It was accurate with my records.

Even if PA fails to send each author a 1099 Misc, the author is still required to file one with the IRS.

Additionally, I'm guessing many PA authors file 1040EZ forms. If they receive a 1099 Misc, they can no longer use a 1040EZ form to file their taxes. They must file a schedule C or C-EZ, a schedule SE, and a 1040.

This is true. And your advice about the C and CEz is correct also. Most authors will probably have a substansial loss on their C after they deduct mileage, promotianal materials, office supplies and the like. They can choose to duduct these or not, depending on how it affects their credits and such. Otherwise they can just choose to put it under "other income", it is still subject to SE tax. But as little as most are getting, it probably doesn't matter so much either way.


BTW

Royalty time is here. I received my royalty statement today. It is more than 0, but not enough to brag to family and friends about =(
After a couple of royalty statements, combined with the knowledge of outrageous book prices and no marketing in brick and mortar bookstores -YOU WOULD THINK- that most authors would get it and move on to greener pastures.
I dunno though, life is strange. :e2smack:

IceCreamEmpress
03-04-2008, 01:45 AM
Editors want to hear your pitch. Sometimes, authors are contracted based upon an idea. Many publishing companies buy books from book packagers. These are companies that have employees who sit around a conference table, buzzing ideas back and forth until they have a winner. They pitch it to a publisher, get a deal, write it, and boom – done. Didn’t know that? Neither did I, until I went to a writer’s conference and heard it from an editor at Delacorte. So you must be comfortable with sharing and pitching.

Companies buy books from book packagers, yes.

Are you a book packager? If not, no editor wants to "hear your pitch." They either want to read your query and sample (for fiction) or read your query and book proposal (for non-fiction).

And book packagers don't want to "hear your pitch," either. They want a query and sample (for fiction) or a query and book proposal (for non-fiction).

AnneMarble
03-04-2008, 02:56 AM
Are you a book packager? If not, no editor wants to "hear your pitch." They either want to read your query and sample (for fiction) or read your query and book proposal (for non-fiction).

Some editors listen to "pitches" from novelists at writing conferences, but I don't think that's what the original PA poster means. In those sessions, writers sign up to get a chance to "pitch" their idea to an editor or agent. These are one-on-one sessions, often done in a lounge in a hotel, not in a board room. You're not going to sell your novel from a pitch, however -- it's just a way to meet the editor and try to get an invitation to send the story right to that editor. Just because you can pitch a story, that doesn't mean you can write well enough to be accepted by that publisher.

Also, I do know writers who have sold by pitching ideas to editors, but it only worked because they were already established pros that the editors had worked with. New writers continue to win acceptances by sending in query letters, etc., not because they can pitch ideas.

And book packagers don't want to "hear your pitch," either. They want a query and sample (for fiction) or a query and book proposal (for non-fiction).
I'd guess that book packagers tend to work with established professionals with a proven track record.

escritora
03-04-2008, 03:05 AM
I was approached by a book packager. The agency already wrote the book and they just wanted my name to go on the cover. I turned the opportunity down. Two years later I had my own book contract.

Jersey Chick
03-04-2008, 03:24 AM
Editor pitch - the most nervewracking 10 minutes of your life. I had one with an editor from Kensington a few years back. After talking about my book, she asked me about some of my favorite writers.

total space-out. I couldn't recall even one. Fortunately for me, she thought it was funny. Unfortunately, she ultimately rejected my partial :(

stormie
03-04-2008, 04:24 AM
Unfortunately, what the PA forum members were probably thinking from that person's post on PAMB was this is what every writer has to do. You have to sit at a table surrounded by editors, etc. and give them your pitch. Nothing in that PA post said anything about query letters or a finished novel. She made it seem like it was the norm. Any newbie would then take the safe way out and just hand over their ms. to PA. That's what bothers me.

IceCreamEmpress
03-04-2008, 05:12 AM
I'd guess that book packagers tend to work with established professionals with a proven track record.

Actually, not so much, because those folks charge too much ;) It's kind of a stepping-stone thing that you usually get into by querying with a synopsis and sample chapters of one of the books in an existing series, then once you've written some books in the series and gotten them in on time (the #1 key to success) they might let you pitch a new series idea.

Somebody who's published one or two books in a relevant genre is pretty much who they're looking for; if that person can write in the series style and turn work in quickly, it's all good.

Afinerosesheis
03-04-2008, 06:37 AM
Unfortunately, what the PA forum members were probably thinking from that person's post on PAMB was this is what every writer has to do. You have to sit at a table surrounded by editors, etc. and give them your pitch. Nothing in that PA post said anything about query letters or a finished novel. She made it seem like it was the norm. Any newbie would then take the safe way out and just hand over their ms. to PA. That's what bothers me.


A lot of what you say makes sense. As a "newbie" and published by PA, I would go to the PAMB searching for answers and listened to a lot of what the other authors had to say. I thought they knew better than me and had sage advice. Some did, most didn't. I know this sounds foolish, and admitting to fault on my part, but I really didn't know better. Many other people don't either.

Think of it this way: A newly published PA author automatically may go to their own publisher's board for info. Why go anywhere else when an author's own pub offered a board? Luckily for me, it didn't take long at all to start seeing holes in the whole affair. Especially when my posts began disappearing at an alarming rate...and the bannings began.

PVish
03-04-2008, 06:58 AM
The reality checks (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26072) are arriving:

If my book is one of the first few on the list to pop up whenever you put in the word [. . .] shouldn't that count for at least one sale? I apparently didn't have any sold on the internet either, there were 14 sold by PA though? When and if I sell any on the internet will my royalty check tell which bookstore sold it or not? I am pretty sad about mine this time, my very first royalty check was $65.77 and they told me that only included PA sales so I was expecting an even bigger one ! Boy! Howdy! was I ever knocked down!

This from an author who was so optimistic not long ago.

DaveKuzminski
03-04-2008, 07:05 AM
It'll be interesting to learn whether PA gets the totals right on the IRS form from their two royalty periods.

Afinerosesheis
03-04-2008, 07:15 AM
WOW! If I got a royalty check for 65 bucks, I'd fall over from the shock. They got more than me.

(Must have been all that marketing??)

BarbJ
03-04-2008, 07:22 AM
WOW! If I got a royalty check for 65 bucks, I'd fall over from the shock. They got more than me.

(Must have been all that marketing??)

Their lollipop tree had Tootsie Roll pops. Slacker. :tongue

Actually, the 65 bucks is impressive if it was all though PA only. Must have a large family.

Afinerosesheis
03-04-2008, 03:52 PM
I am a slacker, I am guilty. It is ALL MY FAULT =)

That 65.00 was a good check considering the source. I was surprised.

tlblack
03-04-2008, 05:33 PM
If I'm not mistaken, she sold 90 copies to get that $65. Her royalty statement would have shown those sales at a 40% discount.

Sparhawk
03-04-2008, 08:00 PM
If I'm not mistaken, she sold 90 copies to get that $65. Her royalty statement would have shown those sales at a 40% discount.
Seventy two cents a book. Wow! PA IS making a fortune on her. Funny how the only folks making any real dough AREN'T the authors.

Joanna_S
03-04-2008, 08:33 PM
I've written for a book packager. Well, sort of. In the middle of our deal the packager was acquired by a large publisher so it became an imprint. But the original deal was from a packager (non-fiction). Packagers can definitely be the friend of an author. You won't get rich, but you'll get a decent advance and they may throw more projects your way.

-- Joanna

tlblack
03-04-2008, 09:15 PM
Something for PA authors to look at when they receive their first royalty statements:

Does the discount match the sale amount offered in the announcement/order form that went out to all of your friends and family? Or does it reflect a discount of between 40 and 55%?

When my first statement arrived, I know for a fact that my book was offered at $17.97, (I still have a copy of that letter/order form) which would be a 10% discount off of the retail price of $19.95. The first royalty statement I received showed 10 copies sold at a 55% discount. I thought nothing about it at the time, but since I have been going through old papers and such, I came across that statement. This in turn caused me to find the receipts from family members showing what was actually paid for some of those copies. How much you ask? Why, $17.95, .02 less than offered in the statement.

emsuniverse
03-06-2008, 05:45 AM
The royalty thread has turned into an All Hail PA Thread.

It also confirmed, for me at least, Pipesmoker's main role - to tell everyone, naysayers or faithful, to remember that they will "never do any better than PA" because they are "one of just a million writers who know no one in the publishing industry" and they shouldn't even spend money on a publicist.

I'm not shocked, I'm just amazed...

emsuniverse
03-06-2008, 06:50 AM
A rather cheery post. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26106)

I was sad for a day about my royalties but I am not about getting Internet sales...I am about getting the word out about {retracted} and what it takes to deal with it on a daily basis! I never wrote these books to make money! I want to educate the world! If I have to do that by giving talks so be it! I have to start somewhere right?

I know that I'm extremely cynical, but she's so happy all the time that I wonder how much of it is an act... Or is she really that peppy and excited all the time?

Afinerosesheis
03-06-2008, 06:57 AM
I think she really is happy all the time. And if that's the case, then I think it's great. I wish I could be happy all the time, too!

Now just think how happy she might really be, and how many more autistic people she would reach if she could get the marketing her book deserves...without doing it herself. (JMO)

Khazarkhum
03-06-2008, 12:49 PM
I think she really is happy all the time. And if that's the case, then I think it's great. I wish I could be happy all the time, too!

Now just think how happy she might really be, and how many more autistic people she would reach if she could get the marketing her book deserves...without doing it herself. (JMO)

That's the first thing to some to me, too. She's so relentlessly happy, as if she fears what would happen if she stopped. There are people with a naturally sunny disposition, and then there are people like this lady. She seems to rely on her husband's autism in a manner which seems to be at least co-dependent and at worst disturbing.

And then there is this: Besides that I have personally sold 250 copies of my first book and 70 of my second book! I'm not even trying to sell my second book right now because I want copies on hand for my presentations!

If she were with a real publisher, she wouldn't have to worry about running out of books.

endless rewrite
03-06-2008, 01:29 PM
I want to educate the world! That's quite hard to do if the world doesn't know that you or your book exists.

You see PA authors make the same sort of nonsensical statement over and over again.

Hey, it's not the money/royalties/being a best seller that matters, it's just getting my book read. That's why I wrote it. That's what's important.

If nobody is buying it, nobody is reading it.

endless rewrite
03-06-2008, 01:43 PM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26126

How long do you think this is going to last on the PAMB?


MY book have been out since october 29th 2007, but the amount of royalty that I received was a big total of O amount. I know that some of my friend bought a couple of my books from Barnes and Nobles bookstore. But I did not get not a dime. Whoo hoo! http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Christine N.
03-06-2008, 02:05 PM
It's really sad, and I hate that Dick keeps telling them they can't do better. If nothing else, some of them could perhaps find a publisher that actually edits for content instead of just spellcheck. I mean, it's true, some of them couldn't do better, not with what they've got currently written. But if they actually applied themselves to improving their writing, who knows?

He tried to tell me my publishers weren't any better than PA...I really think he has no clue. At least one of my publishers has books on shelves, and they both give industry standard discounts. So...I don't know if he just doesn't understand, or thinks that since HE didn't try for anything better, no one else could. I dunno.

Queen of Swords
03-06-2008, 02:40 PM
How long do you think this is going to last on the PAMB?

I've started saving screenshots of these. Soon I shall have a PA Hall of Shame. :)

JulieB
03-06-2008, 05:38 PM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26126

How long do you think this is going to last on the PAMB?

That one may stay up because the B&N purchases are probably within the three-month return window. The poster will be told that and everything will (presumably) be fine.

stormie
03-06-2008, 06:14 PM
It also confirmed, for me at least, Pipesmoker's main role - to tell everyone, naysayers or faithful, to remember that they will "never do any better than PA" because they are "one of just a million writers who know no one in the publishing industry" and they shouldn't even spend money on a publicist.

I'm not shocked, I'm just amazed...
He's been doing that for a long time. Wonder if he's paid to say those things on the forum. Then again, if he were paid, it'd only be a dollar. As for that perennially (sp?) happy peppy woman, she's always like that too. I kind of feel sorry for her husband. And actually, there are several wonderful books about autism already published. I particularly like Temple Grandin's books. But I digress....

Queen of Swords
03-06-2008, 06:37 PM
How long do you think this is going to last on the PAMB?

'Tis gone.

brianm
03-06-2008, 07:22 PM
That one may stay up because the B&N purchases are probably within the three-month return window. The poster will be told that and everything will (presumably) be fine.

It's gone.

Last year, PA requested their authors post royalty questions/comments only in the private forum. I'm guessing this thread has been moved there so as not to disillusion new victims who may thinking of signing a contract with PA.

JulieB
03-06-2008, 07:35 PM
Yeah, that's probably right.

CatSlave
03-06-2008, 08:26 PM
He's been doing that for a long time. Wonder if he's paid to say those things on the forum.
My guess is that he recognizes the sad fact that the majority of PA authors (not all, mind you) write so poorly that the chance of them becoming legitimately published is miniscule.
For them, their only chance to see their book in print is with PA or spending their money to self-publish.
Since they are already in PA's clutches, the damage is done.
Maybe he is performing an act of mercy, however misguided, in telling them not to get their hopes up, not to expect much in the way of royalties, not to waste money on a publicist and to concentrate on improving their writing skills.

I doubt that PA pays anyone to shill for them; they're too cheap, and they are experts at misleading the public with no help from outside.

Just my conjecture, however misguided. :)

Jersey Chick
03-06-2008, 08:41 PM
Kind of a "letting them down gently"?

I've flipped through quite a few of the snippets offered on the PA author websites and some of them are enough to make my eyes bleed with the typos and wandering body parts and head-hopping, to mention a few. Some, though, aren't half bad, but not quite there yet, if that makes any sense. Those are the ones I really cringe at because they had a shot before PA got ahold of them. **sighs**

stormie
03-06-2008, 08:52 PM
Yep, Jersey Chick, I've been to a few of their websites. Some have potential, some don't, and I cringe for those who have so many typos, !!!!!, grammatical errors, too. It's the ones with potential I want to reach out to, but know that many times they don't want to hear that with some "leg work" they could get published by a true publisher.

CatSlave--note though that I said if PA did pay pipesmoker, it'd probably be that token dollar. :D

CatSlave
03-06-2008, 09:01 PM
Kind of a "letting them down gently"
Yes, exactly.
Not much else you can do for them, considering PA already got to them.
I guess we'll never know for sure.

Stormie: I don't think PA would part with an extra dollar willingly.
You would have to pry it out of their cold, dead fingers. :D

JimmyD1318
03-06-2008, 09:39 PM
The only one I know of that PA paid was H.B Marcus, and then it only was with free books. At least that is what I heard.

PVish
03-06-2008, 09:50 PM
. . . Now just think how happy she might really be, and how many more autistic people she would reach if she could get the marketing her book deserves...without doing it herself. (JMO)

Or if she'd just done a bit more Googling. Had she Googled "autism & publisher," she'd have found the Autism Asperger Publishing Company (http://www.asperger.net/about.htm) which targets the very audience she wants to reach.

Just poking around the AAPC site, I found 23 titles in the category of "Personal Accounts and Family Members." I think her book would fit into that category. From her posts on the PAMB, I get the impression that she thinks her book is unique in its subject matter. I wonder if she knows just how many books on the topic already exist and how readers are able to find many of those books much easier than they can find a PA book.

Lurkers, please do a bit of Googling and research on other books about your topic and other publishers before you decide that PA is the answer to your prayers.

ResearchGuy
03-07-2008, 01:24 AM
The only one I know of that PA paid was H.B Marcus, and then it only was with free books. At least that is what I heard.
I know one who was sent on a trip to Iceland (back when PA pretended to have "Publish Icelandica"). That one has been a relentless advocate of PA ever since and is on third PA book.

--Ken

Susan Gable
03-07-2008, 02:59 AM
If she were with a real publisher, she wouldn't have to worry about running out of books.

That's not 100% accurate. I'm with a real publisher, and I am out of books. You can't get any new copies of my previous published books.

They are out of print. And I'm out of author copies of some of them. I have resorted to looking for fairly-decent second hand copies.

But I can say quite confidently that I sold more copies than PA's topselling book. :) I'll take that.

Susan G.

Sparhawk
03-07-2008, 03:17 AM
I know one who was sent on a trip to Iceland (back when PA pretended to have "Publish Icelandica"). That one has been a relentless advocate of PA ever since and is on third PA book.

--Ken

I often wonder whatever became of HB. The PA Pit Poodle seems to have fallen off the face of the internet. Oh the good old days of guitar give aways, Jiffy Lube signings and mass hysterics. I still remember The HB charity boxing match. Gawd those were the golden days of the PAMB!

Queen of Swords
03-07-2008, 03:24 AM
Another one bits the dust (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26124)

Well, my friends, I just wanted to tell you all that it's been fun, but, now it's time I stopped posting on these board for a while, if not for good. My book isn't doing well at all and I can't get any book signings or interveiws. I"ve tried everything I know how for over two years, but, nothing seems to work. I'm beginning to think that maybe my desire to be an author was a wasted effort. My royalities statement was a great disappointment, no sales, but, one return from a book store. I'm going to just sit back a re-evaluate my options, if I have any.

One of the replies was a stream-of-consciousness that seems designed to convince the guy that this is the norm for writers (much like the We Love PA royalties thread).

You are no better off than most writers of books and poetry and whatnot.

You can't even get an agent to represent whatnot these days.

I know that's no consolation and less a motivating factor to keep you in the game...That's a choice you need to make and assess. Martin is right..Not many writers make big dough. And many have their books ridiculed from pillar to post.

"Many"? I'd really like to know what he considers "many". And how many writers with legitimate publishers have no sales at all?

Be thankful the book you wrote didn't cost you anything to publish.

I knew that old faithful would make an appearance sooner or later. As though it was the norm to pay to be published, such that the guy should consider his acceptance from PA to be manna from heaven.

Yes, perhaps it cost you in incidentals and phone calls and time spent promoting. But what else would you do with your time and energy-watch a tree grow?...

Because there's nothing else a writer can do with their time and energy and money other than promote, promote, promote. It's either promotion or apathy in PAworld. Writing doesn't seem to enter the picture at all.

Look at your activity with your book in the past. See how you can improve your effort or change it. Maybe it's you and not your book.

Blaming the victim, the other fallback for the faithful.

I know a friend who wrote a book published by Random House..Hard cover..the works..He was going to tear down the walls of publishing sales. ..He's a lawyer..Was going to rival Grisham..Sure..Sales? zip!...He used a couple swear words and said: "Frig this!" He quit and went back to his office...Truthfully, it was not a bad book. It was a mystery thriller. The point? He is now writing briefs 24/7 and very unhappy...The jerk!

If only he had gone with PA instead! Sure, he would still have had zero sales, but at least he wouldn't have been a jerk.

Jersey Chick
03-07-2008, 04:10 AM
Whatnot is the hardest thing to get an agent to represent.

Oy.

And then there's

Yes, perhaps it cost you in incidentals and phone calls and time spent promoting. I'd say it's a safe bet that those "incidentals" cost more than a lousy $1 advance.

I'm sure there will be more posts of this ilk. How sad.

Afinerosesheis
03-07-2008, 07:02 AM
Another one bits the dust (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=26124)




Those posts really get me down. It is sad and degrading for the authors who seem to end up getting the complete blame. And that Rudy really makes my a@@ tired. From my own experiences, he is a mean one.
I guess posts like these are the reason I keep hanging around here.

The company isn't too bad either. :)

BarbJ
03-07-2008, 07:26 AM
I guess posts like these are the reason I keep hanging around here.

The company isn't too bad either. :)

Thank you. Thank you. And you hang around here because you belong here.

So do you, PA lurkers.

Christine N.
03-07-2008, 02:10 PM
I can't believe a book from Random House sold NOT ONE copy. They guy may not have earned out his advance, but that's a completely different animal.

And it was Random House, not PA. There's no comparison. I will agree that you can't expect any one book to be a "Grisham" - because out of all the books published, a small percent do that well. But to sell NO copies at all? Doubt it.

James D. Macdonald
03-07-2008, 03:28 PM
Was going to rival Grisham..Sure..Sales? zip!...He used a couple swear words and said: "Frig this!"

When an author with a real publisher says, "Sales? I didn't have any!" he means "It only sold 5,000 copies."

(That lawyer friend should try writing another book. Maybe it'll do better. Maybe it'll do so much better that the first one will be put back into print....)

Queen of Swords
03-07-2008, 04:43 PM
He used a couple swear words...

Maybe he said, "At least I didn't go with some ****ing vanity press that only pays you one ****ing dollar for your work."

allenparker
03-07-2008, 05:46 PM
I'm still wrestling with the fact that he had no sales but a return. If the book sold to a store and was returned, he had a sale.

CatSlave
03-07-2008, 06:17 PM
Thank you. Thank you. And you hang around here because you belong here.

So do you, PA lurkers.
Amen to that, Sister.

Christine N.
03-07-2008, 07:01 PM
Which means he had no sale. You don't get paid for books that get returned.