PAMB and its quotes

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ResearchGuy

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. . . I just wanted a regular sized paperback book priced at about $7.99 or less, not a huge trade paperback (not quite the size of hardcover). . . .
That price at retail requires a fairly large print run (probably tens of thousands) and economical overhead and distribution. The major contributor to the cost is not the dimensions of the book (page size), it is economies of scale. POD of course has no economies of scale--not for the book production itself. (And if sales were to be large enough for other economies of scale to kick in, than POD would make no sense and standard printing methods would be appropriate.)

That is why no commercial publisher that has to price books for the market can publish books that will not sell at least several thousand copies in fairly short order through established channels. And at that, print runs of only several thousand have to be balanced by books with print runs and sales in the many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands.

Although the numbers are of course long outdated, some will find of interest the table "Economies of Scale in Book Production" on p. 48 of Curtis G. Benjamin's A Candid Critique of Book PUblishing (Bowker, 1977). The picture painted by the table should still be reasonably representative. (Benjamin was a top executive of a prominent publisher, McGraw-Hill.) Anyway, in his example, average price per copy (remember, these are 1977 figures), declines from $11.30 for a print run of 1,000 copies to $1.15 for a print run of 25,000 copies (with the rate of decline tapering off after that, the figure falling to $0.77 per copy for print run of 100,000).

BTW, according to Benjamin (p. 49), "the average first printing [for McGraw-Hill] is currently [circa 1977] about 9,000 copies. while the median size is about 5,000 copies." I suspect that those figures are still reasonably typical, although numbers might have moved up a bit and would vary a lot depending on genre and publisher.

FWIW.

--Ken
 
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spike

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IMO, going to PA member’s websites and bad mouthing PA, then directing them to AW, will never convince them PA is not a reputable publisher. IMO, it will make AW look like its members do have sour grapes and some hidden agenda against PA, and the old timers on PAMB will reinforce that belief.

I think those posters to that PA member’s blog need to remember that NEPAT and all of its related threads are just a small portion of AW. A very important portion, but it is not what AW is all about.

I agree, particularly when the author is in the honeymoon phase. I gave up on those folks long ago. Just tell them that there is a chair waiting for them here at the water cooler when they want to visit.

I read the blog in question. Unfortunately, this author is primed for PA. She thought about using booksurge before she found PA. She previously signed with an agent that cost her money. She obviously believes that the commercial route is shut to her. So sad.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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Sometimes I suspect that the blog posts, the guestbook slime, and the Amazon slams are posted by Larry and Miranda in an effort to reinforce the us vs. them feeling and poison the PA well against AW.

It's been a long-standing policy of AW that if a slimer's IP matches that of an AW member that that member's continued membership here is in Grave Danger.

The "sour grapes" thing always makes me frantic. Didn't anyone ever read Aesop? The moral of The Fox and the Grapes is "It is easy to despise what you cannot get." The guy who says that "bookstores are terrible places to sell books" has sour grapes. Folks who say that getting published by PA isn't a big achievement don't have sour grapes.
 
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Marian Perera

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For the average PA author, I'm guessing what matters most to them, what they value and what they therefore think others must value too, is the published book in their hands. Their own book, printed and bound, in their hands.

But that's not what I want. What I want is to be published by a solid, reputable publisher, to have my books in lots of stores without my having to cajole managers into carrying them, and to basically make a lot more money than $1. So how could I possibly have sour grapes when it comes to PA authors? All they've got that I haven't got are printed, bound copies of their books - and I could get any of mine done by Kinko's if I wanted.
 

TwentyFour

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For the average PA author, I'm guessing what matters most to them, what they value and what they therefore think others must value too, is the published book in their hands. Their own book, printed and bound, in their hands.

But that's not what I want. What I want is to be published by a solid, reputable publisher, to have my books in lots of stores without my having to cajole managers into carrying them, and to basically make a lot more money than $1. So how could I possibly have sour grapes when it comes to PA authors? All they've got that I haven't got are printed, bound copies of their books - and I could get any of mine done by Kinko's if I wanted.
....and several have said they know PA is not as reputable as they claim, but they still want to be published by them...I don't get it? Some even admit they seen negatives before hand and decided it didn't matter.
 

spike

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....and several have said they know PA is not as reputable as they claim, but they still want to be published by them...I don't get it? Some even admit they seen negatives before hand and decided it didn't matter.

That's because they believe that their book is a work of GENIUS. It doesn't matter if PA is a scam, because once people see how wonderful their book is, it will sell. All they need is to have it printed published printed and the public will fall all over themselves to buy it.

Look at all the posts on the PAMB where people are complaining that their second or third book was not picked up by PA. Notice how no one suggests that the book in question may be sub-par? How "writing a better book" never comes into discussion. No, it's always "sell more books!".
 

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<name omitted>, my first reaction was similar to yours because of all the negative stuff that I read, while researching PA. (I now believe that a lot of it is generated by the REAL vanity press/self publishing places, who are probably losing big bucks thanks to PA creating a place where you can be published at no cost to yourself. And also generated by ill-informed writers who expected the moon on a platter from PA and are sulking because they didn't get it.)
I hesitated until a friend told me that PA published her first book when no agent or publisher was interested. She has since gone on to seeing five of her novel series published by a major firm. And she still says, if she had a book her publisher didn't want, she'd not hesitate to submit it to PA. I trusted her and went ahead. I'm not sorry.
Although I've been writing and publishing with major magazines and newspapers for over 30 years, and continue to do so, it didn't count when it came to breaking into the novel field. PA was willing to give us all that chance. What we make of it, is up to us.

This is the type of blurb that fans the flame of misinformation to those who haven't done any research before signing with PA. Seriously; if you are having even small four figure advances sent to you for each book in a series why would you go back to PA for one buck? Of course, the name of the firm isn't divulged so it makes the entire statement ambiguous.

And discrediting writing credits over a 30 year span? That's just bizarre.
 
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Jersey Chick

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Look at all the posts on the PAMB where people are complaining that their second or third book was not picked up by PA. Notice how no one suggests that the book in question may be sub-par? How "writing a better book" never comes into discussion. No, it's always "sell more books!".

Y'know, I never even noticed that - how observant ;)

Now I'm wondering even more...
 

TwentyFour

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it isn't your imagination.

A great big injustice has been done and it is effecting the whole board and the people here.

I pray that it can be corrected, very soon...
What happened on PAMB?
 

Rolling Thunder

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Yeah, it does spell out a lot.

Oh, and you behave over there, agent78. :)

I'll look around over there a little in my spare time, but I doubt I'll join. There are other forums besides PA that might be interesting for regular topics. But with only 47 members and a note in the nitty gritty forum about declining activity on that board it's struggling.

I was a little surprised to see Jeff 'wave' at PA in such a capricious manner.
 

brianm

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http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19964&start=30

I think PA is changing a lot. Most of the compaints I read about were from 2004 on Preditors and Editors website. That was before I signed with PA. I figured if the compaints were that old, they had to of changed. Since I have signed with them, I don't see anything wrong with the company at all. I'm very pleased with how my book turned out and so are the people buying them.

This is another example of someone refusing to accept that they have made a big mistake by signing with PA. She must have been overwhelmed by all of the information on P&E after 2004, and it caused the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil syndrome to kick in. For those lurkers unaware of P&E, here’s the link. Judge for yourself the volume of information about PA after 2004.

http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebp.htm
 

spike

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http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20383
I think this is telling (and sad). The title of the post is "PA is Awesome":

PAMB said:
Once again, PA has done a remarkable in ensuring their authors meet their obligations. I had to place an order for books this past Monday for one of the book signings I was had this past weekend. As I was placing the order I asked if I would get the books before Friday because if I was not going to get them, it would have turn out to be very bad. I was told I should get them Friday but they could not predict how fast UPS would deliver. To my surprise, the books were delivered on Thursday two days prior to the event. Both events were very successful.
icon_biggrin.gif


I really do appreciate their efforts and as always, I’m glad I chose PA as my publisher. Many thanks to PA and to my author friends, PA is truly doing their best to accommodate our needs so let us make sure we are doing our part to make our journey a successful one.

This guy is singing the PA praises because they delivered his books when they said. How low are these people's standards? This should not qualify as "awesome". It should be business as usual.

On the same thread:

PAMB said:
Some people don't realize that what they are getting out of PA is truly fantastic! Those bad apples that were mentioned earlier don't see what they are getting out of them which you would have to pay a pretty penny for other publishers and probably get less. PA is a great place for beginners and proud authors alike.

This is really sad. Do they think ALL publishers are vanity?
 

James D. Macdonald

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which you would have to pay a pretty penny for [with] other publishers....

What? Did PA send those books for that signing for free? Or did the author who was singing their praises have to plunk down cash in advance?

This is really sad. Do they think ALL publishers are vanity?

Yes.
 
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triceretops

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Money, just had to exchange hands on that. PA accomodates quickly when credit card numbers come over their line. I've never heard of PA providing anything gratis. I'm pretty sure that author had to shell out for that order and, if he did, that is some preposterous azz kissing going on there, because that is the atmosphere that PA fosters.

Translation: "Thank you for letting me spend a huge chunk of money on my own books and getting them to me on time, for a signing you had nothing to do with."

I read through the platitudes. I've never seen such fear evoked from authors, who speak so softly about real publishing problems in one breath, and yet with the other, exclaim that the world is their oyster because PA is leading them into the light. It seems every post has a disclaimer.

I'm reminded of the Adam Sandler movie Waterboy, where Adam's got his sights on one of the opposing team players, and is about to tackle him.

"Oh, please don't hurt me!"

No author, writer, or scribbler should ever be made to feel degraded or in danger of being banned, or their book pulled. Yet, PA excells at this psycho warfare.

I would say that most of the oldtime PA authors have donned the Stepford Scribe face for reasons of convienence--they are not stupid or ignorant--no PA author is or ever has been. They spew the mantra because it is the safe thing to do. Nothing on earth could hurt more than having your book discontinued and wiped from the earth, especially when they believe that their dreams DID come true. Infoblow represents the egg shells they must lightly trod over every day. Any post is at risk of waking the sleeping giant (who always has one eye open), and the risk is just too great.

I've been reading the PA board for years now. I've truly come to understand and even adore a lot of people over there. Some of my favorites are now here at AW. It never fails to amaze how these people are always at our newbie thread, spreading good tidings and welcoming everyone into the fold. PA authors are truly one of our most precious resources, if we are only reminded that we too were once new and trusting, and many of us (myself included) could have been collared in the same trap.

I'm sure we keep up the good fight because we do love those people over there. I hope one day they'll realize that.

My fight is with PA. I believe that the two men, Larry and Willy, set down the rules and foundation, and act more like silent partners in the business.
I've always belived that handing the reigns over to Moe was like pouring gasoline on a bonfire.

There has been a small exodus lately. Things are not looking good there. Some of the old guard, which were fairly new not long ago, are swearing off the PA message board. Sure, we've seen it before--it does remind me of the Shemb fiasco. But...it is getting more frequent now, if you've been following it.

Change your ways PA. You're being consumed by your own blaze.

Tri
 

brianm

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I've never heard of PA providing anything gratis.

According to this old timer, the french woman, she got 21 of her books for free. The last time she posted this info, PA removed it from PAMB. She has over 14,000 posts and vehemently supports PA. Who says the old timers aren't getting paid or getting kick backs for making sure the public board is pro PA?


http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20383

David you are absolutely right, besides which I can attest to their good business sense and honesty! A few weeks ago anticipating my workshop reading here in Boca Raton at the local Library yesterday...I ordered some of my cookbooks (which was the subject ) but when the package got here, imagine my surprise when I found they had sent me my memoir "Le Cafe' de Cadix" instead!! So I called them and after some verification of my order, and their apologies... they send me the same amount of cookbooks FREE! You can't do better then that David!
So when I say that "A book from P.A is like the gift that keeps on giving.." I am very close to the truth n'est ce pas!


This woman, the pipe smoker, and lounge chair man dole out more baloney about the publishing business, and the merits of PA, than Oscar Meyer produces in an entire year.
 

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This woman, the pipe smoker, and lounge chair man dole out more baloney about the publishing business, and the merits of PA, than Oscar Meyer produces in an entire year.

I would not be surprised if they got free book from PA in return for their loyalty. The pipe smoker should know better; he is a combat vetern and had a small career in mystery writing going before he got involved with PA.
 

Rolling Thunder

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XXXXX, remember that POD also stands for "print on demand" PublishAmerica does not "publish on demand". If store managers or owners mention this to you... set them straight.

This would make sense, if you were dealing with 'PrintAmerica'.
 

stormie

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According to this old timer, the french woman, she got 21 of her books for free. The last time she posted this info, PA removed it from PAMB. She has over 14,000 posts and vehemently supports PA. Who says the old timers aren't getting paid or getting kick backs for making sure the public board is pro PA?

This woman, the pipe smoker, and lounge chair man dole out more baloney about the publishing business, and the merits of PA, than Oscar Meyer produces in an entire year.
I have to agree. It's like they're the three-person cheering squad, making sure everyone on those boards gets brain-washed. If not, :e2zipped:

Why else would those three do that with so much enthusiasm?
 

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

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This Lady Is From South Africa

If I remember correctly, the French woman everyone is jabbering about was from South Africa - and moved to the United States when the all White Government was tossed out. Tracy and I have had our own run-in’s with her when we were active on the PAMB’s.

The PAM’s are littered with clicks. A group of them have been attending sleep-over cook-outs at one of their author’s friends house in VA, for two years now.

It would be great if the members of AW could gather in one place during the Summer and have a face-to-face conversation. I understand the logistical problems and the financial aspects of this idea.

PublishAmerica often rewards their most outspoken cheerleaders with free books. H.B. Marcus was a perfect example of their mentality. He also had a Webcast radio program. I don’t know what happened to that program. I believe that since he “killed-off” his pen-name, and his contract(s) were cancelled with PublishAmerica, the radio program went the way of the wind as well. This is truly speculation on my part.

Gary Rogers
 

Saundra Julian

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I was once in constant communication with one of those three. I emailed this lady and told her PA was a scam. She responded that she knew it but they did all she wanted them to do...Her exact words..."I wasn't born yesterday, Saundra!"

Why does she continue her support? The PAMB is a hugh part of her life and she loved the admiration she gets there.
 

spike

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