PAMB and its quotes

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triceretops

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I understand how you feel, believe me I do. What you must realize is that PA is no different from any other publisher. Even the well know publishers do not promote their authors. How many television advertisements, radio advertisements do you see from other publishers? Very few if any at all.
No publisher, will invest in first time authors PERIOD. Most people dont know how to promote their work, and many cannot afford to do it.
As far as the boosktores are concerned it is a matter of economics. If you had a business and someone that you did not know came into your place with a product and wanted you to carry that product, would you do so if no one knew about the product or the creator of that product?
Bookstores are in the business to make money and of course they want to invest funds on things that people will buy. If they order our books and for some reason cannot sell the book and the book is returned do you know that the bookstore is charged a restocking fee? Now would you want to carry something and then have to return it because of lack of sales only to have to pay to return that item? I dont think so. That is the situation that the publishers are in.
I do agree, that PA needs to have a better representative to the bookstores maybe that might help. PA is still considered to be a young publisher and I am sure that they are doing the best they can with the amount of books that they have.
I have a personal friend who has written five books. His first book sold over three million copies. His publisher did absolutely no marketing at all and Mike was left to do the majority of the work.


This post wins the absurd award for misinformation. I can't believe it. So, his friend sold 3,000,000 copies and he is stating that this publisher did NOTHING to promote the book? That's a laugh. The minute, nay, the second that book sold over 50,000 copies, or even less, the publisher would have jumped on this breakout novel like a tick on a dog and thrown tons of money into the marketing arena.

But Three Million! Get a righteous clue, bent feather. You are so far out of it you remind me of a Jerry Lewis flick--Way Way Out.

Boggled, bewitched and bedazzled.

Tri
 

spike

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more mis-information

PAMB said:
Those who believe mainline publishers promote all their books equally might find this comment from a well known publisher interesting: ". . . I deplore big publishing's emphasis on blockbusters and lack of interest in the midlist." It can be found in a Mystery Writers of America monthly publication.
All but the very top sellers are on the midlist. Those midlist books receive mention in Publishers Weekly and often get a review by Kirkus and that's about it except for what an agent, publicist or the writer does. That's one reason why so many well-established writers are having a tough time getting published today. The casualty rate in the mystery field today is astounding.
No one has a right to complain if PA isn't out there beating the drum for their book. There is very little of that these days except for the top dogs, politicians and celebrities that write books or have them ghost written.

Maybe someone with more experience could do a line-by-line on this.

This is just silliness. No one every thinks their publisher does "enough". It's the same as asking if someone is paid "enough".

However, this post is answered by some common sense:

PAMB said:
it is true though that if you are published with a mainline publisher your book does stand a chance of appearing on a bookstore shelf. This is not so with PA or with any other POD publisher.
 

e.dashwood

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Just to put it on the record, although I'd be surprised if it weren't already posted here elsewhere:

The typical legitimate publisher, although it will not be able to get on of its books in every bookstore, will be able to get it on the shelves of any bookstore. PA itself gets its books in no bookstores.

Ads are viewed by many publishers as useless and not cost-effective, more as ego boosts for authors.

Buzz for books is first created by pre-publication good reviews in outlets such as PW, Kirkus, Booksense, etc. Legitimate publishers have staff doing this kind of placement. This gives the sales force ammunition to promote the stocking of their books. PA has no sales force. Yes publishers have sales forces, and catalogs.

Book signings and author tours are also increasingly being seen as not cost effective by publishers. At a readind/signing ou see a couple of hundred people who are already interested in your book, while a small radio station interview could have thousands of listeners.

Excerpts from books and related articles in magazines also helps. Many publishers have in-house staff with contacts and the responsibility to do this.

In most mid- to large-sized publishers each author is assigned a publicist who coordinates all of the above.

And the crucial aspect is that as buzz develops, a person can go into a bookstore and ask for the book, and find it on the shelf. Even if you spent thousands creating buzz for a PA book, you would not find it on a shelf.

It is just not true that legitimate publishers do nothing. They do a lot. They want to sell books.

There is also the myth at PA that online sells a lot more than brick and mortar. Not true, the Book Industry Study Group estimates that only 5 per cent of books are sold online, more than half through dedicated bookstores, the balance through stores such as Walmart, supermarkets, and drugstores.
 
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stormie

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Argh... sometimes I just wish I could reach into the computer and shake some of them. It's like watching a horror movie when you know the guy going into the woods is going to get it, the other people in the movie know it, but he goes out anyway and I'm sitting in my seat yelling at him to go back in the damn house!
Yes! That's exactly why, when I'm not in my calm mode, I won't go to PAMB to read their postings.
 

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I understand how you feel, believe me I do. What you must realize is that PA is no different from any other publisher.

The ways in which PA is different from other publishers have been discussed exhaustively. Let's look at the specific examples this poster gives.
Even the well know publishers do not promote their authors.

This is not true. All real publishers promote all their authors, because only by selling books will they earn back their investment (mutiple thousands of dollars of which the advance is one of the smallest parts).

How many television advertisements, radio advertisements do you see from other publishers? Very few if any at all.

TV, radio, and print advertisements for first-time authors are a waste of time and money. Their only purpose is to say to readers "You know that book you were planning to buy the minute it came out? It's out!" A side benefit is to make the author feel all warm and fuzzy.

No publisher, will invest in first time authors PERIOD.

This is not true. Every real publisher invests heavily in all their authors, especially first-timers. Any one of them could be the next John Grisham (and that's what the publishers are all hoping for).

This is the very minimum that all real publishers do for all their authors:

1) Advance reading copies to legitimate review venues.
2) Salesforce promotion to bookstores and libraries.
3) Listing in the publisher's catalog.
4) Advertising to the trade.

Further promotion (display dumps, endcaps) doesn't go to everyone, but does go to many first-time authors.

Most people dont know how to promote their work, and many cannot afford to do it.

Nor do they have access to the review venues and bookstore buyers that publishers do. That's why publishers do the promotion, not authors. Promotion is very, very important. Why on earth would publishers leave it to underfunded amateurs?

As far as the boosktores are concerned it is a matter of economics. If you had a business and someone that you did not know came into your place with a product and wanted you to carry that product, would you do so if no one knew about the product or the creator of that product?

Bookstores shelve first-time authors all the time. Any one of them could be a breakaway best seller. The ones who have a hard time getting shelved are second-and-third-time authors with a disappointing track record.

Bookstores are in the business to make money and of course they want to invest funds on things that people will buy. If they order our books and for some reason cannot sell the book and the book is returned do you know that the bookstore is charged a restocking fee?

Real publishers don't charge a restocking fee. That's just one more way in which PublishAmerica is different from real publishers. ("For some reason" includes poor production values, poor editing, and very high prices.)

Now would you want to carry something and then have to return it because of lack of sales only to have to pay to return that item?

Nope! It's all part of PA's plan to make sure that your books aren't stocked in bookstores.

I dont think so. That is the situation that the publishers are in.

Real publishers don't have that problem.

I do agree, that PA needs to have a better representative to the bookstores maybe that might help. PA is still considered to be a young publisher and I am sure that they are doing the best they can with the amount of books that they have.

PA isn't a "young publisher" any more. They've been doing business -- badly -- for years. Yes, they'd need to market to bookstores, if selling books to the public were part of their business plan.

I have a personal friend who has written five books. His first book sold over three million copies. His publisher did absolutely no marketing at all and Mike was left to do the majority of the work.

I believe that's Mike Warnke. A very sad case.



Those who believe mainline publishers promote all their books equally might find this comment from a well known publisher interesting: ". . . I deplore big publishing's emphasis on blockbusters and lack of interest in the midlist." It can be found in a Mystery Writers of America monthly publication.

Yes, real publishers do emphasize blockbusters. But they make their regular, reliable income on the midlist. The best-sellers make the headlines. The okay-sellers power the industry.

All but the very top sellers are on the midlist.

Except the backlist, the off-list specials, and others. One reason for the mulitplication of imprints at publishers has been so that more books can be frontlist. More lists, more fronts. Really.

Those midlist books receive mention in Publishers Weekly and often get a review by Kirkus and that's about it except for what an agent, publicist or the writer does.

And being in the list at all, a list that is presented to every bookstore and library buyer in the country. How agents fit in this I don't know. The writer, or a publicist hired by the writer, may be able to move an extra 500 copies. Big deal.

That's one reason why so many well-established writers are having a tough time getting published today. The casualty rate in the mystery field today is astounding.

Established writers whose last book didn't sell as well as the preceeding book have problems, true.

No one has a right to complain if PA isn't out there beating the drum for their book.

Oh, BS. PA isn't out there beating the drum for anyone except to get more writers to come to PA. Real publishers wake up in the morning and go to bed at night trying to sell books to the public.


There is very little of that these days except for the top dogs, politicians and celebrities that write books or have them ghost written.

BS again. Has anyone over there actually looked at commercial bookselling lately? About half the personnel at any publisher are in the promotion and marketing departments. At most 5% of any publisher's list is celebrity work. What are the rest of those people doing?
 
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TracySutterer & GaryRogers

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Been There, Done That!

SSDD (Same Stuff, Different Day)! It is a hearbreaking tale, often repeated too many times. The posted quote from the PAMB is the sum of all of its parts.

Gary Rogers
 

Christine N.

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I will say that even 'big names' like Jane Yolen are remarking that midlist authors are having a harder time. More and more I see the 'you've got to get out there and promote your book!' - from agents, from authors, from publishers.

None of that means you run to the bookstore and beg them to stock it. I have never, ever seen that asked. What they mean is they want you to put yourself in a position to be seen - on the internet with your own website and in readers forums, reviews and interviews the genre mags, going to cons and doing readings, local events, etc... all free or low-cost things that will drive people to the STORE to find your book. If your book isn't there(or if the store won't order it), it doesn't matter how much promo you do.

Nowhere in there is anything about tableclothes, flea markets or flyers under windshields.

And don't let PA feed you that line about coverprices being 'what the market will bear'. Books are entertainment, for the most part. If they;re looking for a good beach read and one PA book is the same price as two or three by other authors, and they're all equally interesting (just for simplicity) which do you think they will choose? Too expensive is too expensive, plain and simple.
 
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Jersey Chick

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A lot of the authors I know swear by websites and blogs as a way to keep their name out there - I know Nora Roberts comments (unless it's someone masquerading as her) regularly on one of the blogs I read. She actually got into a bit of a tiff with another commenter, which was kind of entertaining, really.

As for pricing, I wince when I pay $25 for a hardcover - never mind a paperback ;)
 

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PA's prices are "what the traffic will bear" if the traffic is "mom and dad."

Sure, I promote my books on the Intarweb. I'm in blogs, and messageboards and stuff. I do it because I like it, and it costs me nothing to put in a sig line that points to one of my books (or to something else that I find interesting). I've done radio interviews all over the place, have done it for years (my publishers set these up). Does it help? Maybe. Doesn't hurt, and doesn't cost me anything.

I think that booksigning tablecloths are just the neatest idea ever. Not that I'd ever make one, but wow. A 60x84 white tablecloth costs $15.58 at Wal*Mart. A package of those tee-shirt transfer sheets costs $7.89. I presume that you already have an ink-jet printer (or can find someone who has one). This is great! You'd only have to sell three more books (that you bought yourself for 50% off) than you otherwise would have to pay for the cost of your Booksigning Tablecloth! And, in a dim light from a great distance, it wouldn't even look tacky!
 

emsuniverse

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from the Magic Number posts

Some replies to the OP:

I don't know what the problem is, but if I can't even order my own book, how can I expect others to order it. Something's funny. I'm not rolling in money and can't afford to buy 40 or 50 of my own books. Sorry.

and...

I dont think that we consider the cost factor when we submitt our work to PA. We are just excited to be published after many rejection letters from other publishers. PA deserves our best, after all they gave us theirs.

and...


Here's to show how little publishers work for their authors. A local bookstore owner I know went to a trade show a few months ago. Half of it was conferences, the other was expositions of the "new releases." This store owner visited dozens of publishers and gave out her store info so she could order some of their books. Not one of them from the conference called her back. She had tio chase them down. She is trying to get books onto her shelves and the publishers are making HER work for it. No wonder small bookstores are often so accommodationg to new authors. She was absolutely thrillied with the prompt and efficient service with with PA send my books to her!

It's like a trainwreck. You don't want to watch, but you can't turn away.
 

emsuniverse

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Other stuff:

Talking about using Ingram's call in program to find out how many books were sold per isbn.

I called.

All numbers were...um...zero.

Wow. Shocker.

Next!

This one woman got her dollar:

I got it! Now I will frame it..I had gone for a doctor appointment and when I got home, my husband handed me the white envelope. He told me it looked to be from the publisher. My heart went up to my throat. I was thinking OH NO! Then I opened it and found my dollar bill taped to a page. Now i feel like I belong!

Uh, guys... THEY SEND A DOLLAR BILL? Not even a check? A DOLLAR BILL? Wonder if it's used or straight off the press...

Getting your books into bookstores:

You will find it is not worth your time to even mess with the bookstore scene.

Well then.
 

Marian Perera

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Uh, guys... THEY SEND A DOLLAR BILL? Not even a check? A DOLLAR BILL? Wonder if it's used or straight off the press...

Man, now PA is out one whole dollar. If only they had sent a check; the author would never have cashed it and so the money would have stayed in their account.
 

BenPanced

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How many television advertisements, radio advertisements do you see from other publishers? Very few if any at all.
Not counting the Elrons' Dianetics books? I've seen TV ads for maybe 4 books over the years (I'm talking actual TV ads, not fluff pieces the local news runs about the latest Harry Potter release). 4 books. Two were Stephen King. Publishers have more effective ways of marketing their books than having to deal with non-print advertising.
 

Christine N.

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Thank you ziz, I thought it sounded stupid that you couldn't. I mean, who would know?

I've seen ads for Nora Roberts writing as...whoever, I don't read her, and James Patterson. And probably a SK book, but I can't tell you what title off the top of my head.
 

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I wonder how that job goes? "Hey Timmy, you are new. Take these $1 bills and tape them to this pile of letters. Then later you fold the letters up and mail them..."


What do you suppose the starting salary would be for that position?

As for ads, I've seen tv ads for James Patterson and I think that's it.

I have heard radio ads for Janet Evanovich, but that might have something to do with the fact that her Plum books are all based in Trenton and NJ's biggest talk radio station (or only talk radio station) is in Ewing, which is a stone's throw from there. I'm pretty sure that's the station that plays her ads.
 

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Here's to show how little publishers work for their authors. A local bookstore owner I know went to a trade show a few months ago. Half of it was conferences, the other was expositions of the "new releases." This store owner visited dozens of publishers and gave out her store info so she could order some of their books. Not one of them from the conference called her back. She had tio chase them down. She is trying to get books onto her shelves and the publishers are making HER work for it. No wonder small bookstores are often so accommodationg to new authors. She was absolutely thrillied with the prompt and efficient service with with PA send my books to her!

From the "What's the Magic Number" discussion.

That local bookstore owner should check with her distributors. Undoubtedly the publishers assumed that she would do so.
 

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PA's prices are "what the traffic will bear" if the traffic is "mom and dad." . . .
Maybe not even mom and dad if they mail an order with a check.

I have mentioned in one or another PA thread my acquaintance who had a (probably quite interesting and well written) memoir published recently by PA. I now know of two people who, in response to the "friends and family" 100-postcard appeal ordered copies, by mail, with a check. Neither has received the book. At least one has waited more than a month. Maybe both have.

At best (assuming the books eventually show up), order fulfillment is abysmally slow. At worst, the orders are simply discarded (the checks might be the sticking point, but that is only my guess). Meanwhile, the author has copies for sale, but at $19.95 I have taken a pass.

One of the folks who probably induced that author into the PA fold is now having serious second thoughts, coming to recognize that PA is a vanity press. That person is now noticing the lack of royalties.

--Ken
 
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