PAMB and its quotes [Archive] - Page 3 - Absolute Write Water Cooler

CatSlave

02-22-2007, 12:08 AM

More questions and answers from the PAMB:

Me and my co authod xxxx's first book, [title] , is done! PA did an awsome job! The cover fits the story sooo well! The release date is [date]! I was wondering if it will be on the shelf at walmart and At stores like albertsons and what not? I'm also still trying to get the press release into the pappers any one have any ideas???
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It will be listed on Amazon, Barnes & Noble and other online sites. That's what PA does. You won't find it at any bookstores unless you arrange for it yourself. There and a million or more books on the market so it requires a lot of work. Some people expect PA to do it but that's not their job. Don't be discouraged - when a book is published that's only the beginning of the writer's work.

Christine N.

02-22-2007, 12:12 AM

Yet no 'reasonable person' would assume their book would be on the shelves.. right?

Sigh.

BenPanced

02-22-2007, 12:39 AM

Yet no 'reasonable person' would assume their book would be on the shelves.. right?

Sigh.

Bookstores still sell books?! :Huh:

Maddog

02-22-2007, 01:12 AM

They must not sell many books. I know 'cause when I was standing in line (forever!) at Borders one day they were selling all sorts of other junk, like calendars and games.

VGrossack

02-22-2007, 04:35 AM

Actually, many bookstores are hurting, as books are being sold by other places (Starbucks, Amazon, etc). A lot of the independents have closed their doors completely - this is a real loss to society, as independent bookstores provide an alternative voice. Barnes and Noble has been hurting too.

Also, people are probably reading less as well.

I've conducted a number of interviews with independent booksellers lately; you can read them here and in the archives.

http://www.coffeehouseforwriters.com/fictionfix/current.html

Bookselling is not a way to make that much money; in an interview that will come out in March with A Thirsty Mind of Lakeview, Texas, the owner talks about they often make more money on the wine than on the books - even at author events.

James D. Macdonald

02-22-2007, 05:26 AM

VGrossack

02-22-2007, 07:39 AM

More people are buying more books, and are reading later in life, than ever before.

There are a lot of things going on in bookselling, including the decline of the ID market and the rise of the superstores, but don't let anyone tell you that folks aren't reading.

I'd agree that plenty of older people are reading - and as people are living longer, that's an extension of the market. But are the younger people reading? Or is their time taken up with internet, television, cell phones, DVDs, Netflix, etc? There are so many interruptions that it's hard to concentrate.

J.S Greer

02-22-2007, 10:08 AM

Maddog

02-22-2007, 07:49 PM

I hear what you're saying, Victoria. Being new-ish to my area I've always just gone to the mega bookstores because I know where they are. When my kids were small I frequented the local toy/bookstore as much as possible.

I have noticed the mega stores are always busy around here. You should see Border's on a Friday night. The place is packed.

CatSlave

02-22-2007, 09:44 PM

Does anyone else find it weird that there are no user profiles on the PAMB? Sorry if that has been brought up before, but im wondering if that is a small way to keep people from maybe sending each other private messages more often?
The LAST think PA wants is the authors having private conversations that can't be monitored and controlled by PA. Take a look at my recent post concerning how cults control information. I can repost it if you want.

stormie

02-22-2007, 11:14 PM

Yup. CatSlave is right. PA watches very, very, closely. Can't have any uprisings now. That one guy, Joe B., still has his message up here (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=18974) about a new writer's board he formed. At first it was for anyone. Now you have to send him an email. No problem with that, really. I'm not a former PA "author" and I have two user names there. I guess, though, it's to get around PA from deleting his message maybe? Or did PA just miss that one?

stormie

02-23-2007, 01:06 AM

Here's a thread PA locked :http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19714
and the original post and PA's answer:
I chose option three for my book. That is the option that makes an editor look it over and correct it, but I recieved proofs today in my email and a message that said that I was being given two weeks to edit my manuscript myself, which I understand is option two. This is very upsetting to me. What should I do to correct this problem? I feel bad that someone has done all the formatting work already just because someone made a mistake.
Email your editor. Simple mistake, simple solution.
Those PA publishers--they seem like the nicest bunch, don't they? And so helpful, too! :rolleyes:

CatSlave

02-23-2007, 01:21 AM

Here's a thread PA locked :http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19714
and the original post and PA's answer:

Those PA publishers--they seem like the nicest bunch, don't they? And so helpful, too! :rolleyes:
Those Barstards! she hissed.

J.S Greer

02-23-2007, 01:41 AM

The LAST think PA wants is the authors having private conversations that can't be monitored and controlled by PA. Take a look at my recent post concerning how cults control information. I can repost it if you want.

I read that post, and ive said that they were cultlike from the start...I just didnt know if anyone had noticed that.

chose option three for my book. That is the option that makes an editor look it over and correct it, but I recieved proofs today in my email and a message that said that I was being given two weeks to edit my manuscript myself, which I understand is option two.

And option one, option two, option three...are there different levels of spellcheck that I'm not aware of?

J.S Greer

02-23-2007, 01:58 AM

It's been said many times that we arent bashing PA authors, we just want them to know the real deal. I would hope that PA authors would see us as friends more so that detractors.
The passage below seems relevant to me, especially applying to ex-PA authors doing their best to let current PA authors know what the deal is.

"This guy's walking down the street when he falls in a hole. The walls are so steep he can't get out. A doctor passes by, and the guy shouts up, "Hey, you, can you help me out?" The doctor writes a prescription, throws it down in the hole and moves on. Then a priest comes along, and the guy shouts up, "Father, I'm down in this hole. Can you help me out?" The priest writes a prayer, throws it down in the hole and moves on. Then a friend walks by. "Hey, Joe, it's me. Can you help me Out" And the friend jumps in the hole. Our guy says, "Are you nuts? Now we're both down here." The friend says, "Yeah, but I've been down here before - and I know the way out."

Popeyesays

02-23-2007, 02:09 AM

Those Barstards!

That's spelled Baastids.

Regards,
Scott

PVish

02-24-2007, 05:20 PM

Hope springs eteranl at http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19785

. . . Anyways, it has been a couple of months since P.A. announced they were purchasing their own presses. Have they started printing yet. No one has said anything.

Guys have you any IDEA how BIG this is? Let me put it in theses terms.

1)Our publishers printing costs per book will go way down. I for one really do not care about the price of my book as it is selling quite well at the price they set. But, and here cones the big but. Who knows I may just be starting an unfounded rumour here but They could conceivably begun mass marketing a few of the better sellers. That would be gianormous if that is their intent down the road. After all with over 20,000 authors, one or two of us must be worth their investing in

2) For those of you out there who think returns are the be all and end all of selling books, these presses give them a little leeway.

3) Now thirdly and the most important of all for all of us out there, it separates P.A. from their association with Lightning Source. Now when people hear P.A. they will not immediate associate them with Lightning Source. Now for you newbies out there, Lightning Source prints for everybody and anybody in the bus. but predominantly Self publishers, you know the old Publish On Demand folks we keep getting compared to, Anyways I am nearing the end of the second book in my series and I am looking forward to see what effect the new presses will have on them and my sales as well

Just a thought.

Anybody want to expalin to the lurkers what this really means?

zizban

02-24-2007, 05:50 PM

Cheaper for PA to produce but the prices will remain high. Higher profit margin for them.

Less accountability. With Lightning Source out of the way, they'll be less of a track record to audit.

James D. Macdonald

02-24-2007, 05:54 PM

What it really means? Sure. It means that there will no longer be any certain way of telling exactly how many copies PA's printed. Right now you could subpoena Lightning Source's records if you want to know if your royalties line up with sales, or if you want to find out if PA has printed copies after they've returned the rights to you. No more!

They could also be cranking the "49 Copies" scam (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=666) back up. You know how that goes: "We're going to return your rights, but we've already printed 49 copies. You have to buy them or we'll own your copyright."

No, PA isn't planning to mass market anyone. Not with a digital printer they aren't.

Returns are a good thing. A reasonable discount is also a good thing. A marketing staff is a good thing. PA has these in name only. Adding a digital printer to the mix won't change any of that.

Lightning Source provides economy of scale. Now PA will have to buy and warehouse their own paper and ink, they'll have to provide the staff to run the machine, they'll have to repair the machine when it breaks.

A digital printer won't separate PA from the Print On Demand folks -- they'll still be print on demand. What it will do is separate them from their previous misleading and deceptive claims that their books are printed by the same people who print books for Random House. As the Author Insult Team was fond of saying, "PublishAmerica is a traditional, advance and royalty paying publisher, sharing printing facilities with Random House, Simon and Schuster, McGraw-Hill, etc." Well, kiss that goodbye!

The effects on this fellows sales? None. His book's been out since May '06 and has an Amazon sales rank of "None." The first royalty period, any sales he might have made in June, July, and August fell into PA's Ninety Day Excuse window. We'll see how he feels after getting his next royalty check in a week or so.

Atomic Bear

02-24-2007, 07:52 PM

I wondering if PA will actually hire new people to handle the printing of the books. They must get at least a few orders for books everyday with all the "happy authors". Who's going to make the books if they don't hire anyone new?

Is it possible that they are still going to use Lightning Source, but tell folks they are printing themselves to keep them from checking on how many were sold?

If they are printing themselves is it possible they could be having a harder time making the numbers they used to and/or even Lightning source has a bone to pick with them?

DaveKuzminski

02-24-2007, 08:31 PM

Either way, PA just screwed themselves. If they have copies warehoused, they'll have to pay taxes on those. If they don't and they claim to any authors that they do and that the author has to purchase those in order to terminate their contract, then they'll be committing fraud. Either situation can put them in court, not arbitration, in which case they'll get to face a prosecutor and the prospect of meeting new boyfriends in their new vacation digs.

That's right, Willem and Larry. Seems like ole Vic forgot to tell you about the Thor Power Tool case, didn't he?

Vic: "Oops, I thought that was only an erotic comic book issue."

Larry: "That's another fine mess you've gotten us into."

Willem: "But it's solely a tax write-off and so the rubes won't keep threatening LSI for their sales numbers."

Miranda: "Oh, shaddup. I need the machine to post flyers all over Baltimore about how PA is on a hate list."

Atomic Bear

02-24-2007, 09:36 PM

I am scared to ask, but what is the 'Thor Power Tool case"?

UPDATE: Google has helped me find out: http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/thor.htm

CatSlave

02-25-2007, 05:30 PM

I have to join your club. I had the same experience with an agent that made a lot of promises. Finally I did a search on the internet and found out that she was a crook. And then whenever I had an agent respond to my query letter with promises, I did an internet search and found out that they were crooks too. That's how I found PA.

I understand what this PA poster is saying, but the unintentional truth of his statement tickles the hell out of me.
:D

PVish

02-27-2007, 10:53 PM

A fairly new author has a great idea on book marketing:
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19840

I don't know if I will ever get into trouble for this or not but I went to the library and looked up {subject redacted}...there were only two books both by {another author}(same book...one paper back and one hard) I put my business card in each of them. I figured people who check the book out are interrested in {subject redacted} and they might want my book too! At least I'm trying to think of free ways to market!

and another author agrees what a great idea it is:
I think that is an excellent way to get your message to the ones who are most interested. Visit other library's and do the same. I used to work in a library and found all sorts of things in books, some intentional; some not. When you know the audience you are after-go for it!

Will the libraries be able to handle the onslaught of 20,000 authors stuffing books with business cards? Should we all rush out to buy stock in VistaPrint?

This is so not a good idea on so many levels.
(An even worse idea: Why stop at business cards in books? Why not lurk in the stacks where your book would be shelved if the libraries were actually able to buy it from PA? Wait for someone to browse for books in that section, leap out with PA book in hand, and . . . well, you get the idea.)

J.S Greer

02-28-2007, 01:08 AM

A fairly new author has a great idea on book marketing:
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19840

and another author agrees what a great idea it is:

Will the libraries be able to handle the onslaught of 20,000 authors stuffing books with business cards? Should we all rush out to buy stock in VistaPrint?

This is so not a good idea on so many levels.
(An even worse idea: Why stop at business cards in books? Why not lurk in the stacks where your book would be shelved if the libraries were actually able to buy it from PA? Wait for someone to browse for books in that section, leap out with PA book in hand, and . . . well, you get the idea.)

How long do you think it would be before alibrary called the number on the card and asked them to stop doing what theyre doing?

Its amazimg where peoples minds go when the options are few.

BenPanced

02-28-2007, 01:16 AM

How long do you think it would be before alibrary called the number on the card and asked them to stop doing what theyre doing?

Its amazimg where peoples minds go when the options are few.
Or simply toss the card in the trash, thinking the person who borrowed the book last used it as a bookmark and accidentally left it in the book?

James D. Macdonald

02-28-2007, 01:45 AM

Well, when you've spent $$$ on business cards you have to do something with them. Otherwise you'd just leave them in the closet with your cases of books.

Christine N.

02-28-2007, 01:53 AM

Or simply toss the card in the trash, thinking the person who borrowed the book last used it as a bookmark and accidentally left it in the book?

I've done that with bookmarks, and I'll admit that it was a bookmark with my book on it. It wasn't on purpose, it was what was handy. I've probably left those stupid cards from magazines in there at one time or another too.

Really :D

James D. Macdonald

02-28-2007, 02:35 AM

This ranks right up with putting a postcard for your book in the pre-paid envelope that you use to pay the utility bill.

(I still love the Booksigning Tablecloth, though. That's just ... so ... well, wonderful.)

EngineerTiger

02-28-2007, 02:37 AM

Why would you put business cards in LIBRARY books. Those readers check out books, not buy them. Uh oh, I hope the little dears don't swamp Borders now and put things in those books.

James D. Macdonald

02-28-2007, 02:40 AM

It's because the person who checks out the library book is interested in the subject of the book. They will find the business card and say, "By golly! Here is a book I've never heard of by someone I've never heard of, that isn't shelved in any stores or libraries ... I must go to Amazon and pay an exorbitant amount and wait a week or two to get my own copy of this book!"

Sassenach

02-28-2007, 04:04 AM

I've found lots of business cards and book fliers in books at Borders. It's annoying, and the chance of them selling me something is...nil.

Queen of Swords

02-28-2007, 04:24 AM

It may be mean of me, but the more desperate an author seems to push his/her book onto me, the less inclined I am to buy it.

Tsu Dho Nimh

02-28-2007, 07:22 AM

zizban

02-28-2007, 08:18 PM

If I opened a book at a B+N and found a business card advertisement I'd be mighty pissed. I go in there to browse for books, not to be assaulted by wannabes desperate to do what any good publisher would: promote their books!

Pagey's_Girl

02-28-2007, 09:15 PM

Best-case, I might use it for a bookmark. Either way, I'd probably never even really look at it.

Finally found a book I'd misplaced last night and found a visitors' pass from the hospital marking my place. I hope they didn't need it back. :)

Gravity

02-28-2007, 09:28 PM

My local downtown library had a rush of those "card in the book" things a year or so ago. The buggers who placed them were industrious, I'll have to give them that. None were from PA authors, though; the first was some sort of a multilevel-marketing offer and the other was for pecker pills. Neither of them spoke to a pressing need of mine (thank God!), and after a week the librarians had removed them.

James D. Macdonald

02-28-2007, 09:33 PM

My local downtown library had a rush of those "card in the book" things a year or so ago.

One of the "guerrilla marketing" newsletters you can subscribe to had probably just recommended doing it.

At least they weren't putting flyers under your car's wipers. (That's a bad enough problem that it's now illegal some places.)

CatSlave

02-28-2007, 09:38 PM

...the first was some sort of a multilevel-marketing offer and the other was for pecker pills. Neither of them spoke to a pressing need of mine (thank God!)...
Thank PHENTERMINE.

spike

02-28-2007, 11:33 PM

One of the "guerrilla marketing" newsletters you can subscribe to had probably just recommended doing it.

At least they weren't putting flyers under your car's wipers. (That's a bad enough problem that it's now illegal some places.)

It's online at forbes.com: http://www.forbes.com/2006/06/08/cx_sr_0608askexpert_slide_6.html?thisSpeed=12000

CatSlave

03-01-2007, 11:09 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19891

I placed an order for XXXX...and paid them $3.50 for shipping and handling ON 2/14/07. Yet, as of today, I have not recieved the book and to make matters worse, there's really no easy access to contact the company to check up on the order.

I am just wondering if this is a systemic problem and if others here have experienced a similar problem.

I am ALSO wondering if we should list them as one of the sources for our book purchase. As HEAVILY as I plan to promote my book, I would be very disappointed to learn that my purchasers can't get their copies and also can't contact someone to inquire on the delivery status of their orders.

Any thoughts, anyone?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
same poster:
My frustration is whether this is a systemic problem with the company. I plan to market my book through almost 80 organization group websites across the world. CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE, IF I START GETTING ANNOYING CONTACTS ABOUT THIS TYPE OF ISSUE?

That's why I want to know if others on this board have experienced a similar problem. From what you are saying, it appears that I should not list PublishAmerica as one of the oneline sources for the book purchase.

I listed them because of the fact that they sell the books to their online sources at 40% discount and pay us royalties on the discounted price. Therefore, as Accountants would attest, it would be wiser to have people buy your books through PA than through PA's online collaborators. But if PA can't deliver on orders, we might as well eat the 40% discount and bank on reliable deliverers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
someone else responded:
Hey you guys,
I emailed PA concerning the same issue. 48 hours and no response. I broadcasted the availability of my book XXX, I mean overseas as well.Some people on my mailing list have already sent in their orders AND I am about to order my first 50 at a discounted price because I have compiled a list of over 40 interested readers.
Talk to me someone from PA or the FAmily
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
original poster again:
This is the type of response I was looking for when I sent out the initial post. I want to know if other people have experienced the same problem - that way, maybe we can avoid listing PA as one of the on-line sources.

It could be possible that PA is good in publishing books but not good in handling customer orders for book purchases. Either way, it's worth knowing before one sends out tons of marketing solicitations to the world.

James D. Macdonald

03-01-2007, 11:18 PM

This is the type of response I was looking for when I sent out the initial post. I want to know if other people have experienced the same problem - that way, maybe we can avoid listing PA as one of the on-line sources.

Dear PA author: Keep complete records of all your promotional efforts, and keep copies of all your mail and email. Keep copies of all customer complaints.

These will come in handy when you take PA to arbitration.

stormie

03-01-2007, 11:51 PM

Hmmm...wonder how long that post will stay on PAMB??

brianm

03-02-2007, 12:23 AM

Hmmm...wonder how long that post will stay on PAMB??

I thought PA would delete this pretty fast, too. It came on at 10:43pm last night.

This member posted this some days ago. A few days later he posted to the same thread again, only this time his words were much stronger about how he felt about PA's "editing" option #3. PA deleted that post. Unfortunately, I wrote over the copy I made of it. But, he basically says the same thing in this post.

My minimal exposure and experience has shown me that it really doesn't matter which option you select. I chose the slowest, supposedly most complete, and there was virtually no editing whatsoever.

I'm not slamming PA mind you - thanks to them we are all in print in the first place. But I was sincere about editing. i would rather have paid for a professional edit than to have to wait that extra time and still get no edit.

I wrote one technical book for the American Society of Quality Control back in 1993. When it came to editing they sent me their edited copy for my review and approval and I felt like I had just had a religious experience. There was more red ink on the pages than black. But, that's what an edit is for isn't it? If I did it wrong tell me.

PA has made a believer out of me and they have gained a life long follower but there are still areas they could improve as well.

Choose the fast one and get your book rolling.

I wonder how he feels now, since his second post was deleted? I have not seen him on PAMB since that post was deleted.

CatSlave

03-02-2007, 01:06 AM

Hmmm...wonder how long that post will stay on PAMB?? Probably not long. I wanted everyone to be able to see it in all its glory before the Infomonster disappears it.
For their own good, of course. Can't have any negativity now, can we?

brianm

03-03-2007, 04:52 PM

There is a thread on the PAMB entitled, “Burned by an Agent.” Here is a quote from one member who uses the Internet to do research.

I have to join your club. I had the same experience with an agent that made a lot of promises. Finally I did a search on the internet and found out that she was a crook. And then whenever I had an agent respond to my query letter with promises, I did an internet search and found out that they were crooks too. That's how I found PA.

That’s how she found PA? I don’t think there’s an agent or publishing entity on the Internet that has as much negative information written about them as PA. How could she ignore that information?

triceretops

03-03-2007, 05:06 PM

I think that whole thread "Burned by an Agent" is a lesson in irony.

Tri

brianm

03-03-2007, 05:21 PM

I think that whole thread "Burned by an Agent" is a lesson in irony.

Tri

I agree. Here's my favorite one from that thread:

The only time I put out money when I don't have a positive return is when I am playing poker. But that is called recreation.

Nope. That is called gambling.

zizban

03-03-2007, 08:30 PM

A woman is leaving the message boards after PA rejected her second novel because the first one had poor says. A happy minion jumps in:

I know your heart is broken. If I win the lottery tonight, we will buy so many of our books that Publish America will make us "Bestseller's"

Then they'll drop you.

James D. Macdonald

03-03-2007, 10:54 PM

One person buys tons of copies =/= "best seller."

Tons of people buy copies = "best seller."

Queen of Swords

03-04-2007, 03:26 AM

I know your heart is broken. If I win the lottery tonight, we will buy so many of our books that Publish America will make us "Bestseller's"

This just hurts my brain. Let's say this author buys ten thousand of her own books. Yay, she's PA's bestselling author for all time. And then what? What do you do with ten thousand of your own books? Sign them all to yourself with love? The PA authors sound as though they have difficulty selling books even in small quantities; how could they move thousands of copies?

stormie

03-04-2007, 03:39 AM

The PA authors sound as though they have difficulty selling books even in small quantities; how could they move thousands of copies?
Poor writing skills, poor math skills....

BenPanced

03-04-2007, 03:52 AM

I have to join your club. I had the same experience with an agent that made a lot of promises. Finally I did a search on the internet and found out that she was a crook. And then whenever I had an agent respond to my query letter with promises, I did an internet search and found out that they were crooks too. That's how I found PA.
I'm just wondering what these agents promised and how they're crooks in relation to PA.

stormie

03-04-2007, 03:58 AM

Here's one just posted:
Got my second check today!!!!!!!!
Six dollars and 53 cents.
I'm not gonna cash it though - -gonna keep it like the first one -- like trophies. I might even put it in the frame with the dollar advance.
And another PA "author" response:
...you are a Romantic...But cash that bugger and put it in a special account and watch it grow...
So sad!

Rolling Thunder

03-04-2007, 04:14 AM

That is the nature of this business. Even with other publishers. If a book store returns a book, that return is charged against the authors royalties. This is sometime we can't let hold us back because not every book is going to sale and the cost has to be recouped. Just think about those big named authors that have all of those books returned. That cost is charged against their royalties before they are paid so we are in good. Just have fun and things will work out as they should.

I'll just, ya know, let you all sort this one out. That place just boggles my mind.
_________________

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

03-04-2007, 04:34 AM

Buy ten thousand books, you say? If you take a trip back into baseball history - Roger Maris has a museum (link: http://www.rogermaris.com/ ). While he was alive, he would sit down and sign about one hundred baseballs a day (month) for the fans. They were even given away at the museum or were purchased for a small sum of money to keep the lights on. At the time of this writing, there are a few signed baseballs that survive in the museum. He loved baseball and cherished his fans.

What does this have to do with buying your own books and selling them? Everything and Nothing. If you find yourself in a difficult situation with a friend, colleague, relative or acqaintence - giving your book to them may smooth things over. At the very least, if you have confidence that the book is well written, edited, and grammatically correct, the book may impress that person enough to have bragging rights. That, in itself is a “WOW!”

Going overboard by bankrupting your savings by purchasing a literal ton of your books is not a wise action or investment.

I have often posed this question on the boards concerning PublishAmerica placing a tin crown on a person and pronouncing them a “published author”.

(For some odd reason, I seem to be pontificating on this and other forums today!)

An author (in my humble opinion) is anyone who had the discipline to sit on their duff and create a document - whether it turns out to be a short story or large volume manuscript, and has it published either by mainstream houses or a vanity press. PublishAmerica is a reverse vanity press. Any and all products that are produced by PublishAmerica are considered “printed” not authentically published.

PublishAmerica is dedicated to sell books to their authors who are under the “ether”; and to their network of friends relatives, and acquaintances. This was admitted by Meiners at Mr. Dolan’s Arbitration meeting Link:(http://www.freewebs.com/pozkin/legalwatch.htm). By his own words, Mr. Meiners admitted that the company is set-up for authors to buy their own books; and the author is the one solely responsible for selling the books.

Sure, PublishAmerica electronically posts the authors book on world-wide web sites, sends out flyers to the one hundred or so names and addresses that the author has provided, and produces a transparent press release on Google - which the verbiage is cut and pasted from other past press releases by Miranda Prather.

PublishAmerica’s distribution stream is nil. The author is the distribution stream. Other recognized distribution streams will not touch and or glance at a PublishAmerica product. The author is the one who must fight the battles, go through emotional turmoil, put on a happy confident face and sell the book. Making a hand puppet out of paper and selling it (painted and with sparkles all over it) door to door - Fuller Brush Company Style - is the distribution stream.

Gary Rogers

PVish

03-04-2007, 05:16 AM

At http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19777, one of the happy authors makes suggestions to PA how they could make their main page even better:

I have learned over the past two years that some people in the world simply misunderstand the main points on the first page of PA website.
For instance of those points:

We publish more.....
They may wrongly think that anything and everything gets published.
How is that thinking wrong. Oh, anything and everything gets accepted, but not everyone agrees to let PA publish the manuscripts!

So I suggest to add to the list, in order to remove any doubts from the minds of strangers bookstores reviewers, etc., the following:

We do not deal with Self publishing authors and we do not charge our authors.
We just charge them for their books. And shipping costs. And we let them pay the copyright fee.
We work with authors and we do not provide service for fee.
Although these may exist somewhere and embedded, but they need to be highlighted and clear and visible at first glance.
I think these will help PA and all of the authors here significantly.
So, I suggest these to be added and highlighted
Please suggest anything useful you can think of as well.

Further downstream, he adds:
Here is something I saw on main page of PA which is good but I would even add more to it.
"We are the first traditional publisher in modern times to reverse the trend of outsourcing book printing, by building our own printing facility."

'We are using the popular JIT (just in time) concept in operations management for zero inverntory and therefore minimum operational cost.'

PRINT ON DEMAND covers this and also eliminates any risks for cost recovery of the books published.
Anyway, I have given many advices to big corporations and VPs and leaders that became success stories, so I am not shy to share my ideas with a company that has trusted my work as well as yours.

And even further downstream:
Since this did not result in many suggestions, I will add one or more myself.
It would be nice to add a counter to main page of PA and have it count and updated daily with the number of manuscripts rejected. This will be good to teach others, strangers and cynical people and bashers, so that they know all books published here have value and merit.
I'm guessing the counter wouldn't need more than two digits. Possibly one. The manuscript I submitted in my dog's name had no literary merit whatsoever! PA didn't even read it before offering the contract.
I think authors need PA more than PA needs them so to bring and attract more authors is easy for PA, and in fact potential new authors will learn that this is real serious business here.
Authors don't need PA. PA needs authors. PA makes money from sales to its authors. That's the serious business of PA.
Who would have imagined some day JAVA(tm) would become a trademark? Well We may have to grab Just in time Traditional Publisher here before anyone else does (JITTP).
The POD company Infinity Publishing called itself a "Just in Time" publisher a few years ago. "Just in Time" isn't original with PA. "Traditional publisher," now. . . .

Figured I'd better grab some of this thread while it's still there. I doubt it'll stay too long. PA doesn't seem to like it's authors suggesting alternate ways to do things.

James D. Macdonald

03-04-2007, 06:02 AM

I'm not gonna cash it though - -gonna keep it like the first one

PA doesn't want you to cash that check. That's another three gallons of gas in Larry's SUV.

triceretops

03-04-2007, 06:05 AM

Although it is purely symbolic, today I got my first royalty check. It is really not much, but like I said before, the check is totally symbolic, because just the thrill of having this little money sent to me for my first book titled "A Dishwasher's Journey to Dreamland" is very gratifying indeed.

Since the royalty check is symbolic, and the 1.00 advance is symbolic, then you can readily see why PA's quote of "We treat our authors the old-fashioned way, we pay them", is also highly symbolic.

The next declaration we're apt to hear is "Writing a book is totally symbolic."

Tri

CatSlave

03-04-2007, 08:23 AM

I received my first statement and praised God anyway. Official release of my book is xxx but several were ordered this past week and I am about to place an order for my first 50.
SO come August $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $

No royalties paid on books the author purchases from PA.
Boy, is this author in for a nasty surprise. :cry:

ResearchGuy

03-04-2007, 08:41 AM

I'll just, ya know, let you all sort this one out. That place just boggles my mind.

How Stephen King has suffered for the public's reading pleasure! And let us not forget the sacrifices of J. K. Rowling! Oh, the humanity!

--Ken

Rolling Thunder

03-04-2007, 04:51 PM

I wanted to clip this and place it here just in case it disappears. The irony.

Thanks for the quick reply. I know that it is common practice for returns to be charged against the royalties. I was just concerned with the "you do not owe us any payments at this time" statement on my royalty check. It is listed right after it mentions that I have unsold books that were returned by bookstores. Does that mean that I will have to pay Publish America if I don't sell enough books to cover my returns? And if I have to pay for the books, what happens to the books that are returned? If I have to pay for them shouldn't I get the books? I don't really care about making any money on my first book as long as my book is being bought. That is good publicity. I'm not really being negative. As I said in my last post, I was happy with how my book sold last year. In fact, I have a couple traditional publishers interested in my next book. I am actually very confident with my book and feel it will eventually do well. I was just curious about the statement on my check. I know there is someone that has experienced this. Thanks!

James D. Macdonald

03-04-2007, 05:40 PM

Very, very simply:

Book sold = $ to author
Book not sold = nothing to author

Book sold + book not sold =/= $-$=0

ghost

03-04-2007, 06:38 PM

Oh that one almost made me cry. I can't believe they believe that. Especially the person who commented on it
That is the nature of this business. Even with other publishers. If a book store returns a book, that return is charged against the authors royalties. This is sometime we can't let hold us back because not every book is going to sale and the cost has to be recouped. Just think about those big named authors that have all of those books returned. That cost is charged against their royalties before they are paid so we are in good. Just have fun and things will work out as they should.

Ken Schneider

03-04-2007, 07:49 PM

Even with other publishers. If a book store returns a book, that return is charged against the authors royalties.

This statement could be true if we are talking about a reserve policy being in place, and the author returning royalties already paid, not the retail price of the book. Unless, a returned book can't be reshelved as we all know they aren't, but stripped.

So what does PA do with a returned book that shouldn't be re-shipped to the next store ordering copies?

Do they warehouse them, and re-ship? Do they destroy them, and take a loss? (sic)

Have they held a reserve of royalties against the book, and who pays for the printing cost if the book can't be sent to another store. After all PA is a POD printer. We print it, you bought it and paid for it up front.

No royalty from a PA book is going to pay for the retail price.

If a 5% discount is offered, books shipped at a 19.95 price per title, the sales price is 18.95. The royalty at 8% is 1.51. None in that hoard of writers could hardly see a check for 18.95 in royalties to pay back for one POD book.

PA is not going to take a loss on books printed.

They shouldn't be warehousing them and re-sending them to the next customer because of quality issues due to handling.

What happens to that book.

Very likley that the author must pay for the book they themselves talked the store into stocking.

Dear author, You, not PA talked the store into stocking a book that can't be re-stocked again due to quality issues. Therefore as PA is a POD publisher, as you know, it is your responsibility to pay for the returned book.© No PA you may not use my weasel worded response.

Thank you,
Nasty reply to YOUR problem.

(See history on owing ones soul to the general store). For further information.

BenPanced

03-04-2007, 10:09 PM

Reading this thread has actually answered some questions I've had on the royalty and return processes. So people "publishing" with PA is an educational experience!

Christine N.

03-04-2007, 10:35 PM

Most places do keep them and reship, Ken. At least with trade paperbacks. Only MM books are stripped. I don't know specifically how PA's books hold up under handling, but I know my publisher gets returns from bookstores and holds them to be reshipped. Most of the time they're fine, because the bookstore doesn't want to be charged if they send back books in bad shape that can't be resold - you break it, you bought it sort of deal.

But I also can't imagine PA has anyplace to store returned books. They might, but with their return policy being as unenticing as it is, bookstores might just trash them instead of return them. They lose the money they paid for the book, yes, but then they don't have to pay the return shipping plus restocking fee.

brianm

03-04-2007, 11:48 PM

After all PA is a POD printer. We print it, you bought it and paid for it up front.

Very likley that the author must pay for the book they themselves talked the store into stocking.

Dear author, You, not PA talked the store into stocking a book that can't be re-stocked again due to quality issues. Therefore as PA is a POD publisher, as you know, it is your responsibility to pay for the returned book.© No PA you may not use my weasel worded response.
Thank you,
Nasty reply to YOUR problem.

Ken, I must disagree with you on this point.

Article 17 of the PA contract clearly states that the author will avail himself to promote his book. If that author promotes his book to a bookstore, and convinces a bookstore to place his book for sale on their shelves, he has complied with Article 17.

Because PA did not have a return policy in the past, bookstores were not willing to order PA books to place on their shelves, because they would be out the money for shelving those books if they never sold.

However, PA now has a return policy. Albeit, a horrid one. Nonetheless, PA does have a return policy. This return policy is the inducement for a bookstore to order and shelve PA books, because they will no longer be out monies if the books don't sell and they are returned.

Perhaps other POD's have clauses in their contracts that cover what happens when an author promotes/convinces a bookstore to shelve their book. PA does not. Therefore, PA is responsible for the cost of the unsold and returned books.

Pa was forced to provide their authors with some form of return policy in order to make themselves appear more legitimate. They cannot cover their losses for returns by charging their authors, not without verbiage being added to their current contract.

(This is my personal opinion from reading PA’s contract. I am not an attorney, nor am I purporting to give any legal advice or legal interpretation of PA’s contract.)

Ken Schneider

03-05-2007, 12:25 AM

I'm aware, I was still with them when they added the return policy.

Maybe so, Brianm.

Though, I wouldn't try to second guess them on anything.
They won't take a loss on anything they venture into.

One way or another, their return policy is better for them than the author.

We are already seeing authors saying that they are in arears as far as returns versus royalty.

At least before the returns policy the author received a buck or two, or nothing, now they owe from future sales that may never come.

What if they never have another sale and are in arears in the royalty returns owed PA?

They'll pay it sooner or later.

And, don't forget who is keeping track of the returns.

LloydBrown

03-05-2007, 12:28 AM

This return policy is the inducement for a bookstore to order and shelve PA books, because they will no longer be out monies if the books don't sell and they are returned.

Books that are bought on a returnable basis have a 5% discount (in an industry where the reseller normally expects 40% or so). Returning the book incurs a 10% restocking fee, meaning the reseller loses money. The "return policy" is nominal only.

I imagine that claming not to have a return policy while actually offering returns to those who ask for them on a case-by-case basis would actually work much better if PA was interested in selling books to readers.

Christine N.

03-05-2007, 12:41 AM

Yeah, so the bookseller loses 5% from what they paid for the books (which is probably above market average), plus shipping both ways.

Not very profitable nor a great enticement for anybody to order the books.

brianm

03-05-2007, 12:46 AM

Books that are bought on a returnable basis have a 5% discount (in an industry where the reseller normally expects 40% or so). Returning the book incurs a 10% restocking fee, meaning the reseller loses money. The "return policy" is nominal only.

Thank you, Lloyd, for clarification.

However, PA still cannot charge the author. That was my point.

On the other hand, whoever ordered the books at the bookstore may need to be looking for another job.

LloydBrown

03-05-2007, 03:02 AM

However, PA still cannot charge the author. That was my point

They absolutely can. I bet many of them would even pay it.

Whether it would stand up in abritration is a different question. However, there's nothing stopping them from printing and mailing a bill.

I'd be willing to bet that many of the "returns" are fraudulent, too. Everything else is.

brianm

03-05-2007, 03:27 AM

Yes, $52 plus dollars is good. I made a whole $1.12 on one book last year. Needless to say, I am feeling a bit down about it. I have tried and tried to peddle my books. I'm spending more money in doing that than I am getting on a return. I just don't have any more ideas. I have made up postcards, business cards, posted stuff on websites, paid for an ad over at USFreeAds and everything. Bottom line is, you're more likely to sell your stuff only to family and friends. Until somebody really important recognizes and likes your material, you're like the subject of a poem I recently wrote over at Author's Den: Needle In A Haystack. It's a hard business to conquer. But I intend to keep going like the Energizer Bunny. Currently working on my 7th book.

The only one making money on PA books, is the great big scammer themselves, PUBLISH AMERICA.

Ken Schneider

03-05-2007, 04:25 AM

The honeymoon is almost over for that poster.

The roadblock is in sight.

CatSlave

03-05-2007, 11:30 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19940&sid=4edb07c1c50671cdfad6c1d9af1e2bb6
Now I am really confused! I have a question about Ingrams?
My understanding was that Ingrams is the distributor for Publish America. I wonder if anyone on the board knows for sure.

I check with Ingrams, periodically and of course then I have a record of all of my sales. However my statement from PA showed no sales and no check was received. ( this is NOT what my Ingrams records show) Now I wonder, who pays the royalties of the Ingram sales?

My last statement prior to this one from PA showed returns and deductions, also which Ingrams did not show.

I wrote three letters to PA asking these same questions I am posting here and never got an answer, so I am hoping that someone here on the board can have the answer for me.

I am sure there is a logical answer to this question.
~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, there is.

zizban

03-05-2007, 11:54 PM

Oh it's easy. Willem needed gas for the helicopter.

spike

03-06-2007, 04:12 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19980

I actually think Publish America has a good reputation and a small handful of people who have nothing to do but whine---loudly. Taking a look at P. A.s homepage tells you what is really going on. So, to answer your question about what I do to counteract the reputation, the answer is: I do nothing. When I do a speaking engagement I tell people about Publish America. I've never heard anyone say anything negative about them. Sure there is negative stuff on the web, but you'll find that about most anything.
Good luck with your book.

I think this sums up PA's "cultiness". Only PA's website has the truth. Do these people realize how obsurd that statement is? The only one with a monetary motivation to lie is PA.

PA wouldn't lie to us! Everyone else lies, but not PA!

stormie

03-06-2007, 05:24 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19980
I think this sums up PA's "cultiness". Only PA's website has the truth. Do these people realize how obsurd that statement is? The only one with a monetary motivation to lie is PA.

PA wouldn't lie to us! Everyone else lies, but not PA!
Reminds me of "I'm all right, the world's all wrong" way of thinking.

Christine N.

03-06-2007, 05:33 PM

That's why I deleted the PAMB from my bookmarks. The stuff that goes on over there is just too heartbreaking.

zizban

03-06-2007, 06:10 PM

Same here. It is too depressing to read.

Ken Schneider

03-06-2007, 06:16 PM

I don't go over their and read that stuff because it's all repeats from when I was over their posting.
Same questions, same answers, different people.

The one thing they all have in common is they don't know diddly squat about real publishing. Hence their situation and questions. Just the kind of people PA wants in their hoard. People they can manipulate due to ignorance.

Rolling Thunder

03-07-2007, 03:30 PM

The irony of it all.

Before I left for China I send a package to Barnesandnoble headquarters with my books included and a long letter discussion why my books deserved to be in all B&N shops. I also mentioned that both my books were returnable to PA.

Now that I am back I am looking at a letter from B&N. A lady describes the situation poorly. She refers to PA boos as self published and in a generic letter she claimed that this tupe of books sell no more than one hundred copies. Now the time has come for PA to educate B&N specially a lady who does not know what she is talking about. If all of us argue with B&N that-no our books are only print on demand and not self published, we may get nowhere. So I hope PA will come the aid of the authors. I will disclose the name of the lady and her number if you wish. Her mistake and judgement is serious and this is why some of you have not become success stories.
I got my checks and I am not sure if they mean anything because I do not know how many companies are selling my books and who is who. This is another matter to discuss later.
what do you all think the course of action should be. Of course you do not want to make the lady who is in charge angry but only to educate her and work with her.
Authors with a lot of passion and pride will not be able to work easily with people who have misconceptions or the wrong information, so indeed PA support is needed and hopefully that once for all will remove the dark cloud from the eyes of the third parties.

spike

03-07-2007, 04:42 PM

If it looks like a vanity press....

I too, have read where many authors say that PA did not publish a second or third book, due to lack of sales.
I am not sure there is a magical number but rather it is based on how many overall books are purchased.
For the most part we are not paid a royalty if we purchase our books, unless PA runs a promtion of somekind.
I know of many authors who have a published book by PA and have never purchased a single copy. Even though we are not required to purchase copies it is in our best interest to do so. When we purchase our books PA is making money otherwise they would not sell them to us even at our discount. Even though we are not paid a royalty on the purchases we make, it is still a sale nonetheless.

I would think that PA would have to sell a couple of hundred books in order to recoup the money they are out on the production of our books. If we are not willing to purchase our books and promote them, then why should PA continue to accept books that the author does not have an interest in?

JimmyD1318

03-07-2007, 05:01 PM

I would think that PA would have to sell a couple of hundred books in order to recoup the money they are out on the production of our books. If we are not willing to purchase our books and promote them, then why should PA continue to accept books that the author does not have an interest in?

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck....

You are dealing with a vanity press!

DeadlyAccurate

03-07-2007, 06:30 PM

Now the time has come for PA to educate B&N specially a lady who does not know what she is talking about.

Ya know, if booksellers, agents, publishers, editors, and established authors all think PA is a vanity self-publisher, and the only people who don't think PA is a vanity self-publisher are PA authors, isn't there the distinct, likely possibility that PA is...a vanity self-publisher?

zizban

03-07-2007, 06:44 PM

Ya know, if booksellers, agents, publishers, editors, and established authors all think PA is a vanity self-publisher, and the only people who don't think PA is a vanity self-publisher are PA authors, isn't there the distinct, likely possibility that PA is...a vanity self-publisher?

Its that cult thing again: everyone is against us. It's us against the world. Creepy.

JimmyD1318

03-07-2007, 06:49 PM

Its that cult thing again: everyone is against us. It's us against the world. Creepy.

Creepy dosen't even begin to cover it!

TwentyFour

03-08-2007, 03:33 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20015

I am the author of XXXXXXXX. I have been watching my book since March of 06. My book is being carried by everybody, Borders, target, cover to cover, valore books, forbes, chapters and a lot of independent stores, every amazon in united states and canada and europe, even lightening source publishing advertises my book, I don't even know who they are and I am sure I don't have a contract with them. If you go to Yahoo.com and put my name XXXXXXXXXXXXX two pages of book stores come to life advertising my book. the same is with my second too. I have been in the top 100, fifty, ten, even #one and two and three in best selling on many of these major book sites. On buy.com I have been the #1, two spot in two catagories for months, and in horror on the #2 page for a month in best selling.
Now for the kicker, I have sold a whopping 11 books according to my royality check. B@N my sales rank has not dropped below 700. I wish somebody could explain why to me my cheks have been so disapointing with a what I think has been a sucessful sales ranking.

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, someone with the same problem as mine. I got my check this month and laughed hysterically. Now, I know for a fact that my books have been selling according to the ranks on both barnesandnoble and amazon.com. So where is the money? LOL..yes, it's a sad situation, but not one I'm allowing to go on much longer. I've contacted a lawyer. Plus, there's no way PA is getting their hands on my next book. As we speak it's sitting on an agent's desk. The kicker is the ridiculous contract that I signed with PA, being a new author, but I've learned SO MUCH since signing that contract.

Good luck!

OUCH...
this is a bite off the reality check!

Rolling Thunder

03-08-2007, 04:08 AM

It also got snipped by Infomonster by 7:20pm est.

JimmyD1318

03-08-2007, 04:19 AM

Finally, someone with the same problem as mine. I got my check this month and laughed hysterically. Now, I know for a fact that my books have been selling according to the ranks on both barnesandnoble and amazon.com. So where is the money? LOL..yes, it's a sad situation, but not one I'm allowing to go on much longer. I've contacted a lawyer. Plus, there's no way PA is getting their hands on my next book. As we speak it's sitting on an agent's desk. The kicker is the ridiculous contract that I signed with PA, being a new author, but I've learned SO MUCH since signing that contract.

Good luck!

Infocenter was quick to delete this part of the thread! Can't let the truth be posted now can we?

J.S Greer

03-08-2007, 08:12 AM

I am the author of XXXXXXXX. I have been watching my book since March of 06. My book is being carried by everybody, Borders, target, cover to cover, valore books, forbes, chapters and a lot of independent stores, every amazon in united states and canada and europe, even lightening source publishing advertises my book, I don't even know who they are and I am sure I don't have a contract with them. If you go to Yahoo.com and put my name XXXXXXXXXXXXX two pages of book stores come to life advertising my book. the same is with my second too. I have been in the top 100, fifty, ten, even #one and two and three in best selling on many of these major book sites. On buy.com I have been the #1, two spot in two catagories for months, and in horror on the #2 page for a month in best selling.

...and we say that PA authors dont sell :Headbang:

zizban

03-08-2007, 06:22 PM

You know, I'm surprised pA doesn't make their message board private, like my publisher, Chippewa, does. It would keep us peeping toms away.

VGrossack

03-08-2007, 06:27 PM

You know, I'm surprised pA doesn't make their message board private, like my publisher, Chippewa, does. It would keep us peeping toms away.

I believe there is a section which is private. The public section may have been kept open to lure in more happy authors.

stormie

03-08-2007, 08:08 PM

I believe there is a section which is private. The public section may have been kept open to lure in more happy authors.
Of course. Because the public forum is heavily monitored, lest anyone post a negative against PA. Makes Publish America look so wonderful and happy and Stepford-like.

Ken Schneider

03-08-2007, 08:11 PM

They edit and ban on the private board, too.

The private board is mostly for the peeps to cuss and talk dirty. Plus many of the old timers can say stuff about us, and think we won't find out.

PA monitors the private board just as close as the public.
they can't have the knowing poisoning the greenies.

zizban

03-08-2007, 08:16 PM

Do we have access to the private board?

DaveKuzminski

03-08-2007, 08:21 PM

Some of us do. ;)

CatSlave

03-08-2007, 08:45 PM

Some of us do. ;)
Perhaps if *one* of you would create a new online identity here, you could share with your AW brethren and sistren, eh?

DaveKuzminski

03-08-2007, 08:57 PM

Doing so would let PA know what messages from there are being seen and help them eliminate others as suspects. Sometimes it's better not to spill what's known, especially in a public forum like this, to keep them guessing who's responsible so they can't cut us off.

ResearchGuy

03-08-2007, 09:06 PM

Perhaps if *one* of you would create a new online identity here, you could share with your AW brethren and sistren, eh?
That would at least border on fraud.

What folks say to each other in what they reasonably believe to be confidence is their business. The public boards provide plenty of fodder for discussion and are fair game for analysis.

IMHO FWIW YMMV.

--Ken

zizban

03-08-2007, 09:16 PM

Well, at least someone can peek in and see if there was dirt to be had. I imagine the private forums are just as idiotic as the public ones.

DaveKuzminski

03-08-2007, 10:09 PM

They are.

CatSlave

03-09-2007, 01:39 AM

That would at least border on fraud.

What folks say to each other in what they reasonably believe to be confidence is their business. The public boards provide plenty of fodder for discussion and are fair game for analysis.

IMHO FWIW YMMV.

--Ken
I meant in a general way, not cutting and pasting quotes verbatim. However, if that is unethical then I retract my request.
But I'm still curious.

allenparker

03-09-2007, 02:03 AM

I am the author of XXXXXXXX. I have been watching my book since March of 06.

Did anyone look at his Amazon and BN rankings? Is it me or is there something wrong here?

just a question from the palatial futon...

James D. Macdonald

03-09-2007, 02:37 AM

PA does make half of its messageboard private. But the public board (showing all the Happy Happy Authors) is a big part of the selling of PA to newbies.

This joke is relevant: http://www.ahajokes.com/hea26.html

JimmyD1318

03-09-2007, 03:25 AM

James D. Macdonald

03-09-2007, 04:32 AM

Did anyone look at his Amazon and BN rankings? Is it me or is there something wrong here?

Oftentimes you'll find that some book at some on-line site is the #1 seller in some small subdivision of books in general: the #1 mystery from PA in Paducah or some such.

Other places, it may actually be the #1 seller, but recall that on-line sales account for a small fraction of all book sales.

My book is being carried by everybody, Borders, target, cover to cover, valore books, forbes, chapters and a lot of independent stores, every amazon in united states and canada and europe, even lightening source publishing advertises my book, I don't even know who they are and I am sure I don't have a contract with them.

Lightning Source is the company that actually prints your book. PA has a contract with them.

Let's see:

Borders (http://www.bordersstores.com/search/title_detail.jsp?id=54891972&srchTerms=atlanta+nights&mediaType=1&srchType=Title)
target (http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=8-2/qid=1173400834/ref=sr_8_2/601-5771407-6729725?ie=UTF8&asin=1411622987)
cover to cover (http://www.covertocoversf.com/NASApp/store/Product?s=showproduct&isbn=9781411622982)
valore books (http://www.valorebooks.com/CallTarget.do?Target=Search.BookResults&product_id=3876172&Sort=1&cart_id=1145040927)
forbes (http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookpage.asp?prod_cd=ISM7R)
chapters (http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/item/books-978141162298/1411622987/Atlanta-Nights?ref=Search+Books%3a+%27atlanta+nights%27)
amazon in united states (http://www.amazon.com/Atlanta-Nights-Travis-Tea/dp/1411622987/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-7578019-5094019?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173401147&sr=8-1)
and canada (http://www.amazon.ca/Atlanta-Nights-Travis-Tea/dp/1411622987/ref=sr_1_1/701-8516990-6517944?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173401208&sr=8-1)
and eu (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Atlanta-Nights-Travis-Tea/dp/1411622987/ref=pd_ka_1/203-4506959-3337503?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173401255&sr=8-1)ro (http://www.amazon.fr/Atlanta-Nights-Travis-Tea/dp/1411622987/ref=sr_1_1/171-8733677-5395414?ie=UTF8&s=english-books&qid=1173401294&sr=8-1)pe (http://www.amazon.de/Atlanta-Nights-Travis-Tea/dp/1411622987/ref=sr_1_1/303-2915229-4325038?ie=UTF8&s=books-intl-de&qid=1173401334&sr=8-1)

All meaningless. Any book with an ISBN is listed in exactly the same places.

James D. Macdonald

03-09-2007, 04:33 AM

Oh -- we have a long-standing policy here at AW of not reposting anything from the PA private messageboard.

Ken Schneider

03-09-2007, 05:04 PM

We have spies and eyes everywhere.

Miranda, one of your roof shingles blew off last night.

Just thought you'd like to know.

zizban

03-09-2007, 05:33 PM

Oh -- we have a long-standing policy here at AW of not reposting anything from the PA private messageboard.

I wasn't asking anyone to do that...I was just curious if we did have someone looking at it.

You saw that shingle fly off, too? Damn thing almost hit me--err, my friend ;)

CatSlave

03-09-2007, 07:14 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20059

I've been thinking. It hurt a bit but I continued and here are my thoughts:
1. If PA gets printing facility up and running then their cost for printing books should go down.
2. Editing and submission requirements should get more rigid.
3. Contract with Ingrams should equal 55% discount with return policy.
4. Distribution of, lets say 5,000 copies of selected books to brick and mortar stores.
5. Public relations for PA authors increase for making a difference.

Voila- more notariety for pA authors. Just a thought.

Here's one destined to bite the dust in a hurry.

zizban

03-09-2007, 07:35 PM

brianm

03-09-2007, 08:38 PM

A look into the inner workings of the well choreographed PA scam machine.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20067

Title of thread: Where’s the Chill out board?

OP:

I thought my post had just been removed, but someone informed me that it was just moved to the Chill Out board. I didn't even know there was one. Where is that?
Pol

Moderators, could you tell me where I can find where the post was moved to?

PA member:

I believe the chill out boards are on the private boards. If you log in you should see both the public and private message boards.

OP:

I tried to find them, but obviously I'm doing something wrong. Thanks for the help, though.

OP:

Nope, I went back to check it out, but all I see are the public ones.

Same PA member:

Hmmm....

Have you requested to use the private boards? I know I was asked this when I first registered to use the boards. When I log in, the private boards are listed ABOVE the public ones.

I just saw your post on the chill out boards. Perhaps you should email support and let them know you are unable to view the private boards.

Mustn't let new recruits read the truth about PA.

Christine N.

03-09-2007, 09:39 PM

Clue for the day- no one just 'distributes' books to bookstores. They are selected by buyers, usually sent by publishers or pushed by the publisher's distributor, to those buyers.

It's not like you wave a magic wand and you're in bookstores. Without a marketing plan to drive people to the store to buy the book, and still being a POD, none of the stores will touch you.

They bought the press, but that doesn't mean they're not still POD. Just makes it in-house instead of outsourced.

Bubastes

03-09-2007, 09:47 PM

A look into the inner workings of the well choreographed PA scam machine.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20067

Mustn't let new recruits read the truth about PA.

This reminds me of the old movie "Gaslight." It's creepy.

brianm

03-09-2007, 09:50 PM

Update on the thread entitled, "Where's the Chill out Boards?"

The infomonster has deleted this thread in its entirety.

zizban

03-09-2007, 10:36 PM

Ouch.

Vipersniper

03-09-2007, 11:29 PM

ResearchGuy

03-10-2007, 12:22 AM

Clue for the day- no one just 'distributes' books to bookstores. . . .
Makes this Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22distributed+to+the+trade+by%22) kinda puzzling, eh?

But then, the phrase is "distributed to the trade," not "distributed to bookstores."

--Ken

Christine N.

03-10-2007, 01:05 AM

LOL. Yes. What I mean is, you don't just box up books, pick a random B&N out of the phone book and ship. :D

PVish

03-10-2007, 03:19 AM

I am still amazed at the number of people who still send their books to PA. I try my best to discourage anyone around here to not do that. I must agree though that it takes awhile to edit your book and you still miss something.

From the PAMB http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19940:
When My book was released I didn't have much money to work with, so I had to use all the free stuff online. I was seeing progress, but not like I wanted. I finally realized that I needed a .com website. So many of the search engines will not work with a free website. I, now, have my new site up and running, but I am still having to surf for credits. I'm willing to pay for traffic as soon as I find the right service. Right now I am using trafficg.com and clicksnmore.com for traffic credits. With these I have had 26,000 hits on my free website in the last 8 months. I have had 500 in a week on my new site. I am still trying to get either Oprah, Ellen, or Dr. Phil to give me a plug.

. . . and from the above poster's website:
*I have had 15 poems published by The International Society of Poets in various anthologies and collections. I have, also, had* 5 that were put on cd.

So, if someone believes the International Library of Poetry (aka The International Society of Poets) is legit, one will believe PA is legit, and that it's worth it to pay to get traffic to one's website, etc. And of course, Oprah is gonna call any minute now. . . . Just the sort of person PA is looking for!

It is amazing what some will believe. (Sigh)

brianm

03-10-2007, 04:54 AM

From the PAMB http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19940:

. . . and from the above poster's website:
*

So, if someone believes the International Library of Poetry (aka The International Society of Poets) is legit, one will believe PA is legit, and that it's worth it to pay to get traffic to one's website, etc. And of course, Oprah is gonna call any minute now. . . . Just the sort of person PA is looking for!

It is amazing what some will believe. (Sigh)

It's their 15 minutes of fame. Unfortunately, they are wasting it on PA.

CatSlave

03-10-2007, 05:16 AM

So, if someone believes the International Library of Poetry (aka The International Society of Poets) is legit, one will believe PA is legit, and that it's worth it to pay to get traffic to one's website, etc. It is amazing what some will believe. (Sigh)
http://windpub.com/literary.scams/D-Barry.htm
Funny Dave Barry article on the poetry scam.
I wish he would do one on the PA scam too. :D

PVish

03-10-2007, 02:57 PM

http://windpub.com/literary.scams/D-Barry.htm
Funny Dave Barry article on the poetry scam.
I wish he would do one on the PA scam too. :D

A while after that Barry's column of Barry's ws published, he did another about the ILP. He encouraged his readers to use the name "Freemont" (either as a first or last name) submit a poem which had the last line: "The dog ate mother's toes." Poeple still do that. Every so often, poetry.com purges them, but the Freemonts return.

Maybe the time is right for a number of Freemonts to write books about said dog and said mother and submit them to PA. Maybe all on the same day? And maybe tell Dave Barry what an inspiration he was?

Just a thought. . . .

Christine N.

03-10-2007, 04:03 PM

Phew. I had a freewebsite, then I bought my domain name. I still use the free people as the webserver, but no ads anymore. I only pay for the domain name, about $17/per year (actually I should be up for renewal soon...) and I have never had to pay for traffic. But if you google me or my book title, you'll find me. Actually I get lots of people with the same name as me, who are Googling themselves. At least two have signed my guestbook. :)

She says 26,000 hits. I don't think so. That's what her counter says, and most of the free sites only allow you to use the counter. I can see actual stats on my site, and what the counter says and the stats say are vastly different- the counter counts different things, like if someone navigates from the main page and then back to the home page - 2 hits. And are they unique hits?

Webcounters are practically useless as a guide to how many actual visitors you get.

Arkie

03-10-2007, 07:38 PM

Makes this Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22distributed+to+the+trade+by%22) kinda puzzling, eh?

But then, the phrase is "distributed to the trade," not "distributed to bookstores."

--Ken

You wanna talk puzzled. I'm just back from my local Barnes and Noble that opened September 2006, and as we all know (or thought we did), B&N does not carry POD books. I had my PA rights returned by letter dated 9-11-06. I'm looking for Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy. They don't have it in the store, nor any books by McCarthy. On a whim, I asked them to type in the name of my book and low and behold they had a copy in the store.

I asked the lady how it got there. She didn't know, except no books are placed without directions of the home office. I said I thought B&N didn't place POD books on the shelf. She asked if that was my book. I said it was, that's my picture on the back. I am still a bit in shock, for every time you think you known something about this publishing business, you find something to the contrary.

TwentyFour

03-11-2007, 04:39 AM

Look at Stephen King. He has a B.A. in English, was an English teacher before a known author and his first two books bombed. Now look at him. He is one the greatest authors of our time. (Not to mention, a new movie of his is coming soon to theaters.)
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19969

Becoming famous

King's homeDuring this period, King began a number of novels. One of his first ideas was of a young girl with psychic powers. However, he grew discouraged, and threw it into the trash. Tabitha later rescued it and encouraged him to finish it.[3] After completing the novel, he titled it Carrie, sent it to Doubleday, and more or less forgot about it. Later, he received an offer to buy it with a $2,500 advance (not a large advance for a novel, even at that time). Shortly after, the value of Carrie was realized with the paperback rights being sold for $400,000 (with $200,000 of it going to the publisher).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_King

Carrie was published in the spring of 1974. That same fall, the Kings left Maine for Boulder, Colorado. They lived there for a little less than a year, during which Stephen wrote The Shining, set in Colorado.http://www.stephenking.com/biography.php

Forgive me for being a King fan, but as far as I recall....Carrie and The Shining are both bestsellers and made him a fortune.

Christine N.

03-11-2007, 05:24 AM

Yeah, but before that he used to sell shorts to porn mags. Maybe that's what they were talking about? :D

zizban

03-11-2007, 05:55 AM

Unfortunately the time when having a press run of several thousand meant all or most would sell is now past. There are several reasons for this, among them the flooding of the market in recent years. Amazon lists more than 8 million books for sale. Print On Demand, the proliferation of vanity press companies and those that charge nothing other than the cost of the book itself are making it increasingly difficult for all but the biggest names or those with a built in audience (Jenna Bush, for example) to make sales. Twenty years ago the comglomerates began buying publishing companies in the belief that doing so would increase their profits. Having found out otherwise, they are dumping them right and left today. Some of the big publishers are growing increasingly leery of having a large intial press run, prefering a very small one and then going to POD if there proves to be much of a demand.
While it seems that it should be otherwise, all this has made it easier for a writer to have a first book published by a mainline firm. The majority, however, find that having a second book published is more difficult than it was in the past. So many mid-list and bootom-list writers are being dropped by publishers that a few new firms have popped up to cater to those mid-listers. But then they acquire a mid-list of their own, of course, and have to start cutting writers. It isn't an easy time for anyone other than the truly big names in the field and some have become a big name merely through luck and timing rather than skill.

Ummmm ya....

James D. Macdonald

03-11-2007, 07:21 AM

Yeah, but before that he used to sell shorts to porn mags. Maybe that's what they were talking about? :D

At one time "Men's" magazines were decent markets for short fiction. They had general-interest articles (mostly cars and sports), fiction (moslty action and horror), and soft-core T&A pictorials.

Most (if not all) of King's earlier short stories have been anthologized since.

King's first two published novels were Carrie and Salem's Lot. Neither one bombed.

ResearchGuy

03-11-2007, 08:51 AM

. . . She says 26,000 hits. I don't think so. . . .
Might also be that the home page is larded with geegaws, each of which counts as a hit when the page is loaded. That plus double and triple and quadruple counting back-and-forths within the site (maybe more geegaws on the other pages, too) could mean that real visits have numbered in the dozens, if that, including her own.

--Ken

Mags

03-11-2007, 09:30 AM

Ohmygod. Talk about doing it bass-ackwards. To get people to visit your site, give them something they want--information, entertainment, but related to your book.

Numbers themselves mean nothing. Why are these people coming to that site? To win a free iPod? Or because they Googled something to do with your book? Because if they are there for the free iPod, you can be fairly certain that they aren't going to buy your book, unless it's a book about iPods of course.

And the search engines certainly index free sites. You have to get their attention by having something worth indexing.

ETA: There's "hits" and there's "visits." If people are reloading the page, each reload is a hit--but it's only one visit.

James D. Macdonald

03-11-2007, 06:34 PM

The major search engines do indeed index the various "free" webpages. Try this Google search for example: truth about publishamerica (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=truth+about+publishamerica&btnG=Google+Search)

Or, to see how you can get to the top of the search engines without any of the bull-pucky "drive traffic to your webpage" surf-to-earn credits nonsense, look at the top links on these searches:

jump kits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=jump+kits&btnG=Search)

science fiction bookstores (http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS177US203&hl=en&q=science+fiction+bookstores&btnG=Google+Search)

What's the trick? Put up content that people want to read.

Yes, your own book will be the top hit when you search on your title plus your name ... but who's going to search on those terms? Your mom?

Rolling Thunder

03-11-2007, 06:49 PM

You all know him; you all ...well...might like him. He's a legend in his own mind and he should be back soon to 'put us all in our place'.

How do you want to be remembered when it comes to your writings, books, etc.?

I don't think my books, stories, or articles will ever be appreciated in my lifetime. I honestly believe that as wine ages with time, so will my memory. I've got a plan for all of my writings. People have asked me to explain this mysterious plan, but I won't. I don't feel the need to tell the world what the idea is or there would be everyone and their brother doing it. The timing isn't right for now.

I have been mocked, ridiculed, and made fun of just because I published with Publish America. If I had been published with Tor or Baen would people still try to smear me? Probably not, but people can be stupid so they may have. I've been studying the records and the creations of those who jumped on the wagon of ridicule. Trust me when I say, that I have outsold some of them.

Don't let the jabronies get to you. They are just green. It could be green of ignorance or green of envy. Either way, I'll leave you with the thought of them being green.

Always the enigma.....

LloydBrown

03-11-2007, 07:58 PM

I've been studying the records and the creations of those who jumped on the wagon of ridicule. Trust me when I say, that I have outsold some of them.
Typical PA-style misleading. He might have sold more books than the unpublished. I know for a fact he hasn't outsold me or anybody else who went with a real publisher.

I'll compare numbers with him any day of the week.

Rolling Thunder

03-11-2007, 08:03 PM

He might have sold more books than the unpublished.

First words to jump into my mind when I read his post. It's one of those ambiguous statements:

I have ten toes; some people have less. Therefore, I have more toes than some people.

zizban

03-11-2007, 08:05 PM

Who is this? the pipe smoking guy?

brianm

03-11-2007, 08:19 PM

No, the OP in that PAMB thread is Alien Enigma, an AW member who staunchly supports the Enron of the publishing world, Publish America.

James D. Macdonald

03-11-2007, 08:23 PM

I'll bet right here and now that Travis Tea has sold more copies than Alien Enigma has sold.

zizban

03-11-2007, 08:33 PM

Most libraries have a copy of Editor & Publisher that lists all newspapers. You aren't likely to have much luck with them, though, aside from the ones in your immediate area. Newspapers are flooded with press releases and pay them little heed.
If I were you, Jose, I'd set up a website on Freewebs. It might do you more good.

Ya because nothing says 'buy my book' like an ad riddled page with annoying talking animations.

brianm

03-11-2007, 08:58 PM

You may remember this person from last week when he posted copyrighted material to SYW. Naturally, he fails to state that he posted into a forum entitled, "Share YOUR Work". This thread should have some interesting replies before it gets deleted from PAMB.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20114

I GOT BANNED FROM ABSOLUTEWRITE

They never liked me over at the forums on www.absolutewrite.com

They also hate publishamerica which they are always criticizing.

On their forum they have a place where writers can have their work criticized by other writers.

I posted a link to some of my work and got some really stupid useless criticism.

So I played a joke on them. I started a thread called "How about this" and copied passages from a book, Give Us a Kiss: A country Noir by Daniel Woodrell. He's an award winning writer, and I think his stuff is just teriffic. Well, guess what? It got panned with some stupid useless criticism.

I never claimed it was my work, but of course, they assumed it was. I revealed the gag, and one of the moderators pulled the post claiming it was plagiarism.

It's not plagiarism to copy a short passage for a review, and this could've been considered a review.

Up to this point they didn't ban me.

A few days later, however, I posted a thread in which I called the moderator who pulled my post, an anal jerk.

Now, I have been banned.

Anyway, this is what I was going to post there today.

New Millenium Magazine no longer accepts unsolicited submissions. To be considered for publication to their magazine, a writer has to enter a contest and pay a $17 fee with their submission--a price I'm not willing to pay.

Thank You,

It should be noted that in addition to doing this in SYW, he also has a fake critique of his book on his website. He wrote the critique himself, which he disclosed while he was a member of AW. In that critique, he compares himself to a modern day Mark Twain.

BTW, that review comparing me to Mark Twain is totally fake. I wrote that myself to aggravate some people I was debating with on a political message board. The All-Mart Wars is a very early novellette I wrote. My writing's improved a lot since I wrote that. If I wasn't so busy I'd edit it and revise part of it. It needs it. Dealing with my webmaster is a pain and when the contract is up I'm going to switch over to authorsden.

Rolling Thunder

03-11-2007, 09:14 PM

It's not plagiarism to copy a short passage for a review, and this could've been considered a review.

If the source had been given, yes, it could have been considered a legitimate review. But he submitted the published work of an author he had no legal rights to and here's the kicker; by not identifying the work as the work of another author, committed fraud.

Now that he has a name and a paper trail to follow, his chances of a happy career in writing is limited. It will be brought up to haunt him again and again.

I wonder if Vic will send him a letter now? :D

James D. Macdonald

03-11-2007, 09:26 PM

Well, guess what? It got panned with some stupid useless criticism.

As it happens, I've read that thread.

He's lying. The excerpts didn't get panned. A couple of people suggested minor sentence-twiddles. Given how brief the excerpts were, that's about all anyone could do with them.

That people might suggest rearranging some sentences isn't surprising. I'm sure I'd suggest that the author might cast some sentences in different ways. I'm sure that author might suggest I cast some of my sentences in different ways. Heck, I cast some of my own sentences in different ways. Sometimes I change 'em back in the next re-write.

As abominationerupts (his name here) said in the now-deleted thread, "I'm forced to admit a little deceit here." That is to say, his intent was to deceive. He was successful: he deceived people.

The person he's deceived most, however, is himself.

Christine N.

03-11-2007, 09:56 PM

Everyone - every.one. - who wants to be a writer who wants to be read by the public needs to have their work looked at by other writers and critiqued. To not means you don't have the cojones to be in this business, because you have no desire to learn and grown in your craft. Reviewers pan books all the time. Readers pan books too. Not everyone is going to love everything they read.

Writers who write for personal pleasure, who don't want to be widely read, that's fine too. I'm not talking about them.

And posting other people's work without citing the source is considered a violation of copyright, and therefore illegal Don't act like a child if you don't want to be treated like one.

Rolling Thunder

03-11-2007, 10:16 PM

He'll figure it out when the first publisher responds with a rejection letter stating: "We can't be sure this is your own original work."

The difference between Atlanta Nights and Crack of doom when compared to his post: all original work.

Frankly, PA and their authors should be leery.

Jersey Chick

03-11-2007, 11:25 PM

I read the replies as well - what a surprise. Apparently anyone who posts here is nothing but a jealous, PA reject.

huh?

Do you suppose they surrender the ability to think logically when they sign the contract?

LloydBrown

03-11-2007, 11:29 PM

That wasn't a review. Apple pie "could be considered" the same thing as Zoroastrianism, but it isn't.

TwentyFour

03-11-2007, 11:52 PM

I think PA has so many people submitting to them, new and old PA'ers...that they ran out of time to take them all on. New authors are more so considered and old PA'ers who shelled out for over the 50 to 100 books. Members with money to burn, credit cards, and a full list of around 100 family members who will go out to buy a book right off the bat are also first considered.

LloydBrown

03-12-2007, 12:03 AM

Do you suppose they surrender the ability to think logically when they sign the contract?

The ignoranuses are alive and, well...

You may remember this scumball from last week

Does anybody remember rule #1?

Christine N.

03-12-2007, 12:43 AM

I love the jealousy thing. I'm so jealous that I'm on my way to my second book, and my series is being looked at by three small publishers, each with a fabulous reputation(meaning either they've gotten books on shelves, are known in the industry, and/or have had books reviewed by trades), and has had pages requested by one of the top agents in my genre. (sorry for the bragging)

Yeah, can't you see how green I am. Sheesh.

Now totally unsuccessful and seeking the matched misery of others, they simply play in their pity-pot and never move on. How sad is that?

This one's just a bloody riot. See above.

zizban

03-12-2007, 12:59 AM

I have a publisher too who will be editing my book, designing cover art and placing on in Barnes and Nobles all over the country with no effort from me! Pleeeeeeease PA take me, I beggeth theeeeeeee!

Jersey Chick

03-12-2007, 01:19 AM

At the risk of looking like a total idiot - I must confess... I don't know rule #1.

brianm

03-12-2007, 01:24 AM

Respect

Jersey Chick

03-12-2007, 01:39 AM

Thank you! :)

I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone - but I find it fascinating that it always becomes an "us against them" mentality. And then I wonder why no one seems to question that there aren't sites warning people about - say - Avon, or Random House. Wouldn't that in itself make you stop and think why there are boards like this, and the warnings on P&E and about a million websites that warn away from PA? If not, that seems a bit illogical to me. That was my point.

Anyway, I apologize if it seemed disrespectful. I was merely curious.

Rolling Thunder

03-12-2007, 01:52 AM

Anybody notice that thread went 'bye-bye'?

Maybe his fun here and that Mark Twain post hits too close to home.

brianm

03-12-2007, 01:55 AM

Anybody notice that thread went 'bye-bye'?

I'm surprised it stayed as long as it did, considering it had a link to AW.

brianm

03-12-2007, 02:16 AM

Jersey Chick

03-12-2007, 02:23 AM

Did you have to grit your teeth? :)

Seriously, it is almost amazing how fast those posts get yanked. I blogged about one a few days ago and it was about 2 hours between the time I noticed it and when I went back to double check something. Gone. I was surprised it lasted that long. Too bad - it seemed like someone was finally beginning to wonder...

Rolling Thunder

03-12-2007, 02:37 AM

True, JG. But it's just like this post:

I'm approaching the magic 500 books sold mark in less than a year. So I'm pleasantly surprised and feel blessed by the response.

Most main line publishers set that abitrary 500 mark as a baseline for first releases. Book offers for second books come easier if you can get over the 500 hump.

This might apply to PA, but I don't know if other publishers feel that way. I would think 500 units is a tiny figure for most publishers, isn't it?

BenPanced

03-12-2007, 02:50 AM

I'm approaching the magic 500 books sold mark in less than a year. So I'm pleasantly surprised and feel blessed by the response.

Most main line publishers set that abitrary 500 mark as a baseline for first releases. Book offers for second books come easier if you can get over the 500 hump.

Funny. Somebody on my LiveJournal friends list had his first YA novel go to a second printing. After the first 20,000 sold out. All this from a non-PA publisher. And he's had a total of eight (I believe) books published. By a non-PA publisher. With numbers like that, he must be doing something wrong if his publisher can't follow the PA business model.

brianm

03-12-2007, 02:54 AM

Did you have to grit your teeth? :)

No, it was beneath me to call him the name I did. I'm glad Lloyd pointed it out.

In retrospect, I feel sorry for the guy. He so wants to be acknowledged that he is willing to write his own book critique and call himself the "modern day Mark Twain". It's really quite sad. He's the type of person PA so easily preys upon.

zizban

03-12-2007, 03:16 AM

Sheesh, my first print run is going to be 1,000 copies and this is from a small press. 1,000 copies without me printing bookmarks, selling to my friends or begging bookstores to stock me.

Jersey Chick

03-12-2007, 03:56 AM

In retrospect, I feel sorry for the guy. He so wants to be acknowledged that he is willing to write his own book critique and call himself the "modern day Mark Twain". It's really quite sad. He's the type of person PA so easily preys upon.

That's what's also so frustrating. And aggravating. Unfortunately, no one there wants to point out that the emperor's really naked. At least not at first. By the time it happens, they've already been taken. I guess it's a good thing in the end, but I can't imagine how it must feel. It's like telemarketers who target lonely elderly people who are so desperate for someone to talk to that they'll buy anything.

Too sad, really.

James D. Macdonald

03-12-2007, 06:16 AM

Most main line publishers set that abitrary 500 mark as a baseline for first releases.

Multiply that by about ten. Or more.

And then I wonder why no one seems to question that there aren't sites warning people about - say - Avon, or Random House.

That's because of the Conspiracy. Didn't you know? Avon and Random House are in an agony of worry over the hordes of PA authors who're on the verge of darfing them. Any day now: Darf! I mean it, those main-line publishers are going to be so darfed! That's why they have to keep PA down. Because if they don't fight like fury, they're going to get put out of business by PA's innovative and cutting edge wave-of-the-future vanity publishing scheme.

Gravity

03-12-2007, 06:23 AM

As abominationerupts (his name here) said in the now-deleted thread, "I'm forced to admit a little deceit here." That is to say, his intent was to deceive. He was successful: he deceived people.

The person he's deceived most, however, is himself.

I always knew that if he held to his unteachable ways, Mr. Enigma would one day step on his johnson. And so he has, in a major public way. Well done, kid. Well done.

CatSlave

03-12-2007, 06:34 AM

I'm surprised it stayed as long as it did, considering it had a link to AW.
I wonder how many folks clicked on that link, just out of curiosity.
Little things can have big repercussions. :)

brianm

03-12-2007, 06:43 AM

I always knew that if he held to his unteachable ways, Mr. Enigma would one day step on his johnson. And so he has, in a major public way. Well done, kid. Well done.

That wasn't Alien Enigma who wrote that. It was a new member banned last week whose sn was abominationerupts.

CatSlave

03-12-2007, 07:24 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=228898&sid=eabb1c19ef146d5521e3be57fda7fbbb#228898)Posted : Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: Sales DELIVERY (or lack of) Horror Story http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20121

Being a newly published author at PublishAmerica, I have had ONLY ONE really bad experience with the PublishAmerica firm~

Friends who have ordered books and paid for those books, have NOT received the books !!

One friend ordered three books on February 7, 2007, as of today, March 11, 2007, she still has NOT received her book order~
After repeated calls to PublishAmerica and several emails to authorsupport, she still has NO IDEA when her book order might arrive !!
She has literally gotten the royal runaround from the customer service department~

Another friend ordered at the same time and STILL has not received her order of my book either !!
She will be contacting them tomorrow~

It is just beyond belief that I, as the author, ordered 100 books on March 1, 2007 and received them within 6 days ... and friends cannot get their books from PublishAmerica~

That is not good customer service and certainly does nothing to make me want to ask people to place their orders with PublishAmerica !!

Being well aware, that the publishing route was handled efficiently ... it is just disheartening to know that those who bought my book directly from my publisher can't seem to get the product delivered in a timely manner~

I have written several emails to author support about this issue and have not had the courtesy of a reply .... can anyone tell me what the problem is ?

Folks who ordered from Barnes & noble and from Amazon got their books within three to five days ...~
Even folks who ordered my book from The Netherlands and from Italy and from Australia got theirs from these firms !!

PublishAmerica .... what gives ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from the PA message board

ResearchGuy

03-12-2007, 07:36 AM

. . . Avon and Random House are in an agony of worry over the hordes of PA authors who're on the verge of darfing them. . .
Here's the thing, and a close study of the Random House website will prove it: Random House, and the rest, are so desperate that they have actually given up the struggle to snaffle waves of new authors into their folds, and instead have directed their sites entirely toward readers of the books they already are publishing! Readers! Targeting readers! Not authors! They have left the field clear for PublishAmerica to direct all of its efforts toward drawing in authors rather than readers!!!!!

Oh, the humanity!

If this goes on, PublishAmerica and its ilk will have 99 percent of the authors, and Random House and the rest of those stick-in-the-mud old-style publishers will be left with 99 percent of the readers and book buyers! Or more!

--Ken

blacbird

03-12-2007, 07:36 AM

CatSlave

03-12-2007, 07:41 AM

Have you made any significant money? Have you advanced your writing careet?

caw
The message was posted on the PA forum by a disgrunted PA author.
I may be a lot of things, but I ain't one of them.
:)

Jersey Chick

03-12-2007, 08:36 AM

Oops - Looks like the delivery horror story post has been deleted. Wonder why? ;)

I bet those "mainstream" publishers are absolutely terrified at the thought of having to rely on readers instead of authors...

Alien Enigma

03-12-2007, 08:56 AM

Gravity, I didn't post anything in SYW. That was someone else. I don't even know who he is. Anyway, I wanted to drop in and say hello. Where's my old friend, Endless Rewrite?

Gravity

03-12-2007, 03:23 PM

Wups, my bad then. I apologize.

Rolling Thunder

03-12-2007, 05:08 PM

I started a thread yesterday about how I was banned from www.absolutewrite.com forums and it disappeared.

Why? :rolleyes:

VGrossack

03-12-2007, 05:30 PM

One has to imagine that the people moderating the PAMB doesn't want their happy authors to find AW. Even an unhappy mention of AW will get people to look at it.

James D. Macdonald

03-12-2007, 05:47 PM

I started a thread yesterday about how I was banned from www.absolutewrite.com forums and it disappeared.

Why?

Do you want to tell him, or should I?

Meanwhile:

Friends who have ordered books and paid for those books, have NOT received the books !!

That's because PA isn't set up to actually sell books. That isn't their main interest. It's a sideline they have in order to make it appear to casual observers that they're a publisher.

They send off the author's hundred copies quick enough -- that's a thousand dollars in their pocket, right then and there. Amazon sends the books quick enough, because they order them direct from LSI. (How that's going to work after PA starts printing their own, heaven only knows.) But when an individual calls PA to order a book? My best guess is that whoever took the order (whoever was standing around the coffeepot beside the one telephone in the building) wrote the order on a yellow Post-It and stuck it on the wall. Every couple of weeks, whoever doesn't have anything else to do comes by, picks up those notes, and makes a batch order to LSI.

This isn't a new problem with PA. They've had a hard time filling orders made directly to them for years. Even bookstores who order just a few at a time by phone have a hard time getting the books. Weeks-to-months-to-never are common reports.

PA is in the business of selling authors' books back to the authors themselves at an inflated price. Everything else is window-dressing.

e.dashwood

03-12-2007, 05:57 PM

Here's the thing, and a close study of the Random House website will prove it: Random House, and the rest, are so desperate that they have actually given up the struggle to snaffle waves of new authors into their folds, and instead have directed their sites entirely toward readers of the books they already are publishing! Readers! Targeting readers! Not authors! They have left the field clear for PublishAmerica to direct all of its efforts toward drawing in authors rather than readers!!!!!

Oh, the humanity!

If this goes on, PublishAmerica and its ilk will have 99 percent of the authors, and Random House and the rest of those stick-in-the-mud old-style publishers will be left with 99 percent of the readers and book buyers! Or more!

--Ken

To amplify on this, go to any of the major publishers, and most of the legitimate small presses, and it requires the skills of Sherlock Holmes to figure out how to submit. And with the majors, if you find something it will likely say they don't accept unsolicited submissions, and to work with an agent. They actively discourage writers from submitting.

The aforementioned Random House does have a link to "submissions" on its home page, but an eager author will be dissatisfied to read, "If you would like to have your work or manuscript considered for publication by a major book publisher, we recommend that you work with an established literary agent."

Penguin USA is not too encouraging either: "Penguin Group (USA) Inc. imprints do not normally accept unsolicited manuscripts. On rare occasion, however, a particular imprint may be open to reading such. The Penguin Group (USA) web site features a listing of which imprints (if any) are currently accepting unsolicited manuscripts." But when you browse the imprints, which are hide to find, since marketing their books is their main motivation and few buy based on imprint, none of them ask for submissions.

And here's a second-tier but highly admired non-profit publisher, The New Press, whose mission in part is to find serious books that might not find a home elsewhere.You'd think they'd be open to submissions? Just a little: "Please keep in mind that while we do look at all work we receive, The New Press very rarely takes unsolicited manuscripts as far as publication."

I wonder how big a look they actually take--more likely a steel-eyed squint.

As hard as it is to submit, it's very easy to buy a book at their web pages which are all about commerce, promotion, brand identification, and patting themselves on the back for awards like Pulitzers and Nobels.

James D. Macdonald

03-12-2007, 06:45 PM

I started a thread yesterday about how I was banned from www.absolutewrite.com forums and it disappeared.

Why?

And ... the thread's vanished! Looks like InfoDump got to work at 9:00, fired up the computer at 9:03, and pushed the button on him at 9:05.

I wonder how long his password is going to keep on working over there?

People who are interested in abominationerupts' interactions here can check out this thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48856) or this one (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53787) or this one (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57117).

Rolling Thunder

03-12-2007, 06:50 PM

The poor guy seems to have trouble making friends anywhere.

Christine N.

03-12-2007, 07:11 PM

Oooo, I liked the part where he told Lisa- the medieval scholar - was wrong about her medieval facts.

Wow. Just, wow. Dude, the first rule of critique is: if you're not going to accept the criticism with grace, don't ask. Even if you don't agree, don't argue.

Old Hack

03-13-2007, 12:52 AM

To amplify on this, go to any of the major publishers, and most of the legitimate small presses, and it requires the skills of Sherlock Holmes to figure out how to submit. And with the majors, if you find something it will likely say they don't accept unsolicited submissions, and to work with an agent. They actively discourage writers from submitting.

(Snipping a little here...)

And here's a second-tier but highly admired non-profit publisher, The New Press, whose mission in part is to find serious books that might not find a home elsewhere.You'd think they'd be open to submissions? Just a little: "Please keep in mind that while we do look at all work we receive, The New Press very rarely takes unsolicited manuscripts as far as publication."

I wonder how big a look they actually take--more likely a steel-eyed squint.

As hard as it is to submit, it's very easy to buy a book at their web pages which are all about commerce, promotion, brand identification, and patting themselves on the back for awards like Pulitzers and Nobels.

Sorry, e, you've got things wrong there.

It's not difficult to work out how to submit work to a publisher, or to an agent. Most will list their requirements on their website, or in the Writers' and Artists' Yearbook (here in the UK--I know there's a USA equivalent). If you can't find a detailed breakdown then a query letter followed by three chapters and a synopsis will usually do the trick.

Most don't take unagented work because they get submerged by submissions all ready. Preferring agented work means that what they read is filtered, so the editors don't have to read through the stuff which is completely unsuitable. Meaning that the editors have more time available to work on the books which they have signed.

Most submissions that were made to me when I worked as an editor were entirely inappropriate for us. We specialised in packaging esoteric adult non-fiction: yet the submissions included children's books, fiction of all kinds, books about engineering, building and car maintenance... they didn't get read. It would have been a waste of my time. The proposals which suited our remit were read. If they looked promising, they were read by several people.

And as far as promotion goes, publishers' websites are marketing tools. Publishers are in the business of selling books to readers. They have to do that to earn the money to publish the books. That's why they announce the prizes their books have won, and reinforce their branding. They want to attract more readers, not more writers. Writers will always find them.

Rolling Thunder

03-13-2007, 12:54 AM

From the pipe smoking guy:

When the subject of getting an agent comes up I always mention that meeting one face to face at a workshop, seminar or convention is the best way, one that is tried and true.
Two of them - Susan Graham (About Words Agency) and Michael Mancilla (Greystone Literary Agency) - will be at the 34th annual Midwest Writers Workshop at Ball State University in Muncie, Indiana July 26, 27 and 28.

Researching is far better than a face to face meeting. I found AWA in background checks but am missing out on learning about Greystone. Is this one swing, one hit it the quote, regarding agencies?

Christine N.

03-13-2007, 12:55 AM

Writer's Market, I believe, would be the US equivelent. But I can understand e.dashwood's confusion - most of the time it is harder to find the submission guidelines, they're tiny links, because the sites are about selling books, not selling writers on submitting to them. ;)

Oh sheesh. And even Miss Snark said, just recently, that agents don't go to conferences to really look for clients. They find so few that way, especially with a thousand writers throwing pages at them. Research the agency, write a good query, write a good book. Three steps to getting an agent (well, there's some luck involved too).

But the conventions can be fun and productive for writing, so they're not a bad idea.

e.dashwood

03-13-2007, 12:59 AM

Dear Old Hack, I don't see how what you say is in opposition to my post. I said the big publishing houses discourage or don't accept direct submissions--only agented submissions. I said their web pages are all about commerce. You are correct in saying that most--but not all--agents list their submission requirements. I should have added that many publishers, other than the big NYC trade houses do accept unsolicited direct submsissions from authors--particularly for nonfiction.

So where was I wrong?

Jersey Chick

03-13-2007, 01:29 AM

e.dashwood

03-13-2007, 02:48 AM

Sometimes, the submission guidelines are all the way at the bottom of the home page - you have to really look for them.

As for accepting unagented material, it also depends on the genre - I think romance is one of the few who still takes unagented work. Some won't even look at unagented queries, but there are still a few who do.

I don't know about other genres, though.

The academic presses will take unagented submissions, generally from academics with advanced degrees.

Textbook and reference publishers will often take unagented submissions.

These types of books pay minimal advances, so they're not worth it for agents, but the expert qualifications required serve as sort of a built-in gatekeeper.

University presses often pay higher royalties than trade publishers. The idea is that their books can become perennial references, paying at the backend forever--or for a long time.

And the smaller presses--again because of low advances--don't require agents.

But for all legitimate presses submissions are not the problem. Too many submissions are the problem, and their web pages are for commerce. They make their money from selling books, not from signing authors.

Jersey Chick

03-13-2007, 03:03 AM

Actually, what I meant was I couldn't say how open other genres are to unagented submissions. I write romance, so that's where I'm in the know :)

Ken Schneider

03-13-2007, 03:07 AM

Dear Old Hack, I don't see how what you say is in opposition to my post. I said the big publishing houses discourage Snip...

So where was I wrong?

I've been called an old hack, but not the one you seek.

I don't see how they discourage anyone from submitting unless you mean that writers who don't have agents are discouraged. Is one discouraged because I've tried to get an agent and have been turned away a thousand times?

If one can complete a good workable ms, they darned sure should be able to figure out how to submit.

I'm not discouraged if their guidelines say no unagented subimissions. It is my responsibility to get an agent, or choose to only seek a house that accept unagented.
Every publishers site gives guidelines which one should follow to the letter when submitting. There are even sites that list only publisher's guideline pages.

Here, A to Z http://www.fictionaddiction.net/listings/printqr.html

zizban

03-13-2007, 05:48 AM

Glad you like your cover. PA has some of the best in the business.

Pipe smoking guy hasn't visited too many bookstores, has he?

CaoPaux

03-13-2007, 06:26 AM

Just in case it needs to be said: "no unsolicited submissions" does not mean "you need an agent". It means "you need to query first".

TwentyFour

03-13-2007, 06:30 AM

Ziz...you made the PAMB! W2GO! Is it your first time? I been there, done that...lol...

That's what someone left in
my guestbook. They also left
this link:
http://homepage.mac.com/zizban/pa.html

I am new here and am excited about
this opportunity.
Will someone comment on this link?

Thanks

Glenda

03-13-2007, 06:31 AM

Just in case it needs to be said: "no unsolicited submissions" does not mean "you need an agent". It means "you need to query first".

Thank you CaoPaux, I for one did not know that. :Shrug:I have passed up submissions because I thought I needed an agent. Goes to show, you learn something on this board everyday.

Rolling Thunder

03-13-2007, 06:33 AM

Ziz...you made the PAMB! W2GO! Is it your first time? I been there, done that...lol...

That should disappear soon. :)

TwentyFour

03-13-2007, 06:35 AM

That should disappear soon. :)
I like how they asked people to comment on it. Wonder what they'll say? Sour grapes?

Glenda

03-13-2007, 06:39 AM

I like how they asked people to comment on it. Wonder what they'll say? Sour grapes?

You know if it stays up long enough to be read, the response will be we are the bad people. PA authors will be warned to stay away.

Rolling Thunder

03-13-2007, 06:45 AM

What bothers me is, the OP lists WritersDigest as one of his favorite links. Search their site and look at all the PA warnings. Incredible.

James D. Macdonald

03-13-2007, 06:45 AM

I'm not 100% thrilled with the idea of writing to (or posting in the guestbooks of) PA authors, unless you're already a personal friend.

Folks react, predictably, badly to a stranger coming up and raining on their parade. It hardens their attitudes and makes us their enemies, even if what we say is 100% true.

PA authors have already made their decisions. Later on, when the reality of the situation starts to seep in, let them search for the truth. We'll be here. Meanwhile, the main effort should be toward educating the people who haven't yet signed up with PA.

TwentyFour

03-13-2007, 06:51 AM

Most of the PA authors I spoke with were via email, or myspace...or writing forums. I think I persuaded possibly two-four pa writers here. I see they still post here too.

TwentyFour

03-13-2007, 06:52 AM

I know one woman who asked me would I ever buy her PA book. I said no, that not many other writers would do so either, she became a bit upset and wanted to know why...

I still talk to her on my yahoo and myspace...so I earned a friend out of it.

brianm

03-13-2007, 07:56 AM

Ziz...you made the PAMB! W2GO! Is it your first time? I been there, done that...lol...

Someone told me last week I should be spending my time going to PA member's websites and warning them about PA. I said I wasn't fond of that idea because I consider their web page their home, and unless they invite me into their home for a chat, I won't intrude.

What was left out of this post was this...

Post subject: Screwed????http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=229111) That's what someone left in
my guestbook. They also left
this link:
http://homepage.mac.com/zizban/pa.html (http://homepage.mac.com/zizban/pa.html)

I am new here and am excited about
this opportunity.
Will someone comment on this link?

Telling someone they are screwed on their own web page isn't, IMO, the way to convince that person that what you are telling them is true.

Think how you would feel if someone came to your web page and said you were screwed because you were a member of AW. It would upset me, and I wouldn't be very fond of that person.

tlblack

03-13-2007, 08:52 AM

That thread got blasted by the PA infocenter but not before the original poster asked why people are so anti-PA. Since he is trying to understand the why of it then perhaps he will do research and find the answer to his question. He sure won't get the answers on the PA message board

TwentyFour

03-13-2007, 09:14 AM

Someone told me last week I should be spending my time going to PA member's websites and warning them about PA. I said I wasn't fond of that idea because I consider their web page their home, and unless they invite me into their home for a chat, I won't intrude.

What was left out of this post was this...

Telling someone they are screwed on their own web page isn't, IMO, the way to convince that person that what you are telling them is true.

Think how you would feel if someone came to your web page and said you were screwed because you were a member of AW. It would upset me, and I wouldn't be very fond of that person.

That is exactly how I felt, too.

I don't remember how I was when I first signed up here, but I know I left the PAMB for a long time and even left NEPAT. It's disheartening beyond belief I'm sure. I hope they don't take it to heart and feel they cannot get over it. What if someone posted on someones site like that and they turn around and kill themselves? That would be forever on my mind and I'd feel overwhelmed with guilt. That is why I stopped telling people out right they made a mistake. I tell them to try coming to P&E and AW and a few other sites. My posts from here have made the PAMB though, that is what I meant by the post.

zizban

03-13-2007, 07:23 PM

Wow, I made the PAMB!

Note, I didn't put anything on peoples' guestbooks. I found it to be counterproductive. My anti-PA website has been around for a while. It's even in the Wikipedia PA page's link section so its no secret.

James D. Macdonald

03-13-2007, 11:51 PM

One of my finest hours was when someone reprinted this song (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=157794) on the PAMB and it stayed up for several days before InfoDump noticed it and deleted it:

The devil went down to Georgia
He was lookin' for books to score:
He'd done eighty that week,
He was startin' to freak,
And he needed to publish more.

When he came on a young man typing
A novel of thunder and blood,
The devil jumped up on a DocuTech
And said "Hey listen, Bud --

"I bet you didn't know it,
But I'm a writer too.
Now you're in luck
'Cause I'll give you a buck;
I've published quite a few.
Now you've writ' a pretty good novel, son,
But give the devil his due,
You grant your soul for seven years
And I will publish you."

The boy said, "My name's Travis,
And it might not be a crime,
But your contract stinks
Like everyone thinks
And you'll get pickled this time."

Now Travis get your keyboard out
And type from morn to night
'Cause Hell's broke loose in Georgia
And the devil's in the fight.
And if you win all you get's Miranda's dirty look,
But if you lose the devil gets your book.

The devil pulled his webpage up
And gave a little nod,
And fire flew from his fingertips
As he posted "Not a POD."
He posted "Keep your copyright"
And "custom cover design"
Then a chorus of demons howled out
"We edit line by line!"

[instrumental break]

When the devil finished
Travis said, "You talk real swell
But sit down on your disparagement clause,
An' I'll show you writin' hell."

Call me Ishmael, dark and stormy night,
Whan that Aprille, I see as from a height,
Hear Me O Muse, midway in our life's journey,
It was a queer sultry summer I apprenticed to an attorney.

[instrumental break]

The devil bowed his head
Because he knew he'd been had,
And he trudged back to Maryland
Looking pale and sad.
Travis said, "Devil, come on back,
Any time you're feeling blue,
You'll get pickled every time
'Cause you know I'm better'n you."

He wrote:

Call me Ishmael, dark and stormy night,
Whan that Aprille, I see as from a height,
Hear Me O Muse, midway in our life's journey,
It was a queer sultry summer I apprenticed to an attorney.

Ken Schneider

03-14-2007, 03:09 AM

stormie

03-14-2007, 04:06 AM

Geez, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

TwentyFour

03-14-2007, 06:13 AM

Great poem, ur... anyway.

As an aside.
Know yee all that previous members here have been banned for posting on the guest books of PA authors.

We have a standing invitation for PA authors to send the IP addy of the poster to AW so that the AW records/files can be checked for that IP addy.http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

PA authors are our friends.
PublishAmerica is not our friend.
It seems like there are new posters here who take it upon themselves to smear the guestbooks with horrid sayings and it just hurts the authors, never helps. As I said earlier, what if you smear a PA authors guestbook and they decide they are not worthy to even live. What happens if they kill themselves and who will be held accountable?

endless rewrite

03-14-2007, 12:17 PM

As I said earlier, what if you smear a PA authors guestbook and they decide they are not worthy to even live. What happens if they kill themselves and who will be held accountable?

OK, I was going to let this pass but then it was brought back up. I do not believe in posting in PA authors guestbooks about PA and I have not and will not do it. But I find the above both ridiculous and unnecessary. The way PA operates is enough to make anyone depressed but nobody is accusing them of tipping anyone into suicide and saying that making an ill advised guest book posting is tantamount to stringing up a noose is not helping anyone. Why do we need such hysterically over the top statements making let alone repeating? There is enough emotional upheaval produced by PA without making people worry they may have caused suicides, it is enough to say (and it has been said) that guest book posting are probably not the best way forward.

Jersey Chick

03-14-2007, 05:33 PM

Posting in a guestbook is wasted time and effort. All it would do is piss off the owner and probably begin another round of "PA against the world." It's like trying to convince a drug addict or an alchoholic that they have a problem. Unfortunately, it can't be done until the person him/herself has that epiphany. With some, it will happen eventually - others, well, there's little you can do about them.

Pagey's_Girl

03-14-2007, 05:45 PM

The best thing we can do, I think, it make sure the "Welcome" mat is always out and that we have enough chairs and snacks out for everyone.

If I'd happened upon them back about ten years ago when I was shopping around a so-not-ready-for-primetime manuscript, I undoubtedly would have fallen for them, too, proverbial hook, line and sinker. I was just smart enough to realize that Vantage Press wasn't a good idea, but I had no idea how publishing worked at the time. Heck, I'm still learning.

zizban

03-14-2007, 06:11 PM

When I post in guestbooks, I'll say something like "Congratulations." tell them what a great writing resource we have here.

VGrossack

03-14-2007, 06:46 PM

I think posting in guestbooks is a bad idea.

Let's go over some unhappy facts. As Christine N wrote in another post, only 0.5% of the slush is publishable. If you look at the posts on the PAMB, with the apostrophes sprinkled on a few words for what must be artistic purposes, you realize that most of the people posting there are not capable of writing a good book. With the attitude that many of them have toward "grammer" (sic) as well as other basics - they may never be capable of writing a good book.

Nevertheless, they have finished a book, which is an achievement in itself. Why rain on their parades? Why make them unhappy and bitter and dissatisfied?

Of course, many PA authors will notice that something is wrong and want to do about it. If and when they investigate further, they will learn of AW and the other resources. And these days, people are getting out of PA contracts with relative ease, so the damage doesn't have to be permanent - or even last 7 years.

And I also agree that if you can show them the facts before they sign with PA, that's altogether different. Let them make the decision with open eyes. But after the deed is done, don't write in their guestbooks

Rolling Thunder

03-14-2007, 10:01 PM

From: http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=229407#229407

That is one of the main issues along with the low entry barrier to getting a book onto the market. It reminds me of a city inside the walls where traditional publishing resides and attempts to control the flow of the business. Forces outside the walls try to break in and set up their own camps to attract the customers inside the city.

Oddly enough you have forces living and feeding off of both sides.

The main thing that keeps it from breaking out is the lack of a unified platform for alternative books other that the internet. No one can walk in and touch and sample the POD books. There's not a huge independent book expo that kicks out a few killer titles or retail outlet that showcases such. With the number of POD publishers around it would seem that they would band together to create an Expo of sorts. One questions if being POD/self published is looked upon less favorably than drowning in rejection letters from the big houses.

I have no regrets about bringing my two books to market, but this is an interesting business from a dynamics standpoint.

This gentleman seems to understand the dilemma of PA authors, yet doesn't seem to grasp the concept that, if PA did operate as a 'traditional' publisher, the situation would be very different.

PODS/self pubs are competing against each other. The whole idea is to make money by selling books. Volume begets overhead; when PA starts their own printing presses you can bet things are going to change over there and not for the 'better'.

PA's presses might just become their own undoing.

Ken Schneider

03-15-2007, 02:09 AM

There is nothing any of us can do to help a signed PA writer. Well I should say short of them not ordering their own books.
It's the person who hasn't signed yet that we want to prevent from doing so.

Time will take care of the current crop of PAers. They'll learn the truth just like the rest of us did.

PA has to be thinking about killing its business through attrition. Word of mouth travels in both directions. A force of twenty thousand is a lot of mouth blabbering.

Tina

03-15-2007, 02:24 AM

So, if someone believes the International Library of Poetry (aka The International Society of Poets) is legit, one will believe PA is legit, and that it's worth it to pay to get traffic to one's website, etc. And of course, Oprah is gonna call any minute now. . . . Just the sort of person PA is looking for!

It is amazing what some will believe. (Sigh)

I've seen several PA'er websites that also note poetry.com (or one of the other names it uses) as credits.

How do you break double bad news to an aspiring writer? It would be like saying "everything you've done to date is worthless."

brianm

03-15-2007, 04:52 AM

Title of thread: Book Galleys and Pre Production

OP: Do PA produce galleys?

1st response: I don't think PA produces them but an author can do it himself

2nd response: What's a book galley?

3rd response: My guess is that it is what your manuscript is after it is proofed and before it goes to print.

If you are going to get into a profession, why would you not learn as much about that profession as you possibly can?

Would you open a restaurant not knowing anything about suppliers, linen service, health codes, etc.?

Not researching and learning as much as they could about the profession of writing, is what got these people into PA’s scam.

PA lurkers, here’s what a galley is: http://www.publishingcentral.com/articles/20030409-1-0a1c.html

spike

03-15-2007, 07:14 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19964&start=15

From the gentleman who believes that bookstores are the worst place to sell your books:

If I am not mistaken I think the number should be 100 but I am not sure. I do know that many authors do not purchase their own books and this is sad.

If the author cannot invest in his or her own book then why should PA. Most people say they cannot afford to purchase copies of their book becuase they are on a fixed income.

PA lurkers: What is described above is a vanity press.

LloydBrown

03-15-2007, 07:22 PM

Okay, I've been quiet long enough. This has been in my head for a while.

If you just want to sell books, then go buy some used books from eBay or a closing bookstore, or garage sales, and sell them to your friends. It'll be cheaper than buying high-priced books from Publish America at a poor discount. Instead of getting 40% gross profit margins, you can easily get 60-90% margins.

If you "just want people to read your book", the put it online for free. No cost to you, no contract, and it gets just as much promotion as a PA book, if not more.

If you want to be a writer, write a book. Sell it to a publisher that has stayed in business for 50+ years by selling books. Even if you fail and only sell two or three thousand, that's far better than PA's average of 30 (average of 75 sold/author, minus the copies sold TO the author).

Regardless of your goal, PA doesn't get you there.

DeadlyAccurate

03-15-2007, 08:10 PM

Rolling Thunder

03-15-2007, 08:15 PM

Caro

03-15-2007, 08:32 PM

I think they use the "just want people to read it" line to make themselves feel better when they realize they're never going to make any actual money through PA. If they truly just wanted people to read it, they wouldn't have gone with a company that tries to make them think they're published, and they wouldn't care if the term "published author" applied to them or not.

I think that's spot on -- I remember a woman in a writer's group about seven or eight years ago who got very angry when she was informed that because her book was published by a vanity press (not PA), the group wasn't going to list her among their "published members" on the website. She kept saying that "she just wanted people to read it" and "just wanted to realize her dream of seeing her book in print" and didn't understand why the group wasn't bending over backward to promote her work. Btw, she did have access to information about what a writer should and should not expect with a publisher. I think she was just blinded by the idea that she could skip a bunch of the pain of rejection this way and didn't think beyond the acceptance.

James D. Macdonald

03-15-2007, 08:32 PM

Perhaps folks do "just want people to read it." But the plain fact is that people aren't reading their books.

CatSlave

03-15-2007, 09:18 PM

zizban

03-15-2007, 10:02 PM

Sparhawk

03-15-2007, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by pamb
If I am not mistaken I think the number should be 100 but I am not sure. I do know that many authors do not purchase their own books and this is sad.

If the author cannot invest in his or her own book then why should PA. Most people say they cannot afford to purchase copies of their book becuase they are on a fixed income.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just one of the reasons.
PA makes me sick.

....And this, my dear friends, is why there will always be PA. And yes, it is grotesque. How dare you not have the money to buy your own books and help your publisher recoup their loss! How dare you make PA assume any risk. What a crock !!!!

Ken Schneider

03-16-2007, 02:01 AM

If they truly just wanted people to read it, they wouldn't have gone with a company that tries to make them think they're published, and they wouldn't care if the term "published author" applied to them or not.

First time, green writers, that are caught in a scam don't realize they aren't getting the real deal. What PA lives for.

Your statement places a lot of faith in the fact that everyone is informed to the hilt about PA.

DaveKuzminski

03-16-2007, 03:44 AM

Tina

03-16-2007, 09:18 PM

Again, if you want to put serious pressure on PA, write an informative article about publishing scams and PA. Then submit it to your local newspaper. Submit it to your local church for their newsletter. Submit it to the AARP for their newsletter. Submit it to any publication you read, even if it's a hobby magazine. Sooner or later, some hobbiest will have a book ready. You might be saving him from PA especially if you point out how this applies to hobbiests as well as other writers.

Just remember, you have the power to alert your local community even if the national media networks doesn't see a story in this. Yet. Just think, if enough of AW's members do this in their local community at the same time, it could create a national phenomena that might gain news attention from the national media. Aim for May, but you have to submit soon. Give PA and the other scammers, such as Bouncin' Bobby, a May Day they'll never forget.

When I first started learning about PA, my first superhero-type thought was that I'd write just the article you are describing.

The problem...I contacted some PA writers north of the 49th parallel (Canada) and no one was interested in going on the record. Honestly, neither would I be if I was in their shoes.

Also, a lot of pubications might fear legal ramifications unless they had their own in-house teams of lawyers to vet.

Dave, Uncle Jim, Christine - have you ever considered doing something like this?

Sassenach

03-16-2007, 09:26 PM

Despite what some people think, PA isn't the biggest story in town. It's just another scam, and there's nothing about the story that's especially newsworthy or interesting to the big TV investigative shows. Now if someone went postal in the PA office, perhaps...

Tina

03-16-2007, 11:49 PM

Of the many snarls at Publish America, the one that is most ridiculous is the one where they say but Publish America "prints" your book and does not "publish" it.

This sounds accurate. An awful lot of people, including media from regional to national, seem to agree.

That is the idiocy of idiots. Place your books next to others. Yours looks like a book, reads like a book, and, aaah, I guess it's a book just like any other.

Unfortunately not. It hasn't been assessed/vetted (chosen from thousands of other submissions because of quality/marketability - the latter to the reading public) appropriately edited or promoted by the publishers marketing dept.

Your book will not likely be given reviews in any newspapers that are not local, or unless you pay.

Your book will not be recognized by any of the national/North American writers unions and as such, neither will your status as "traditionally published author."

The PA covers aren't very good, either. They certainly don't look like the ones you'll see in the stores...if you go to those incredibly lucrative and beloved retail outlets in the first place.

Christine N.

03-16-2007, 11:54 PM

By his standards, anyone who writes anything and puts in places for people to read are 'published'.

They guy handing out flyers in the supermarket parking lot, and anything on the web is published! I could upload a book to Lulu and be 'published' (well, okay, self-published, then)

It's the connotative meaning of 'published' and not the literal one, that most people are interested in.

James D. Macdonald

03-17-2007, 12:33 AM

Printing is not publishing. Publishing includes the entire panoply of production, distribution, marketing, and publicity. The mere existence of the book is necessary but not sufficient for a work to be published.

PA books are "published" under the very minimum definition of the word. They look like books, they read like books, they just don't sell like books.

ResearchGuy

03-17-2007, 02:01 AM

By his standards, anyone who writes anything and puts in places for people to read are 'published'. . .
The relevant dictionary definition of the verb "to publish" is "To prepare and issue (printed material) for public distribution or sale." (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

--Ken

Christine N.

03-17-2007, 02:35 AM

Um, that's what I meant, Ken :) You just said it in a lot more words than I did. :tongue

We all know there's published, and there's "published". There's all kinds of qualifiers- self, vanity, etc..

I suppose perhaps we should all be more careful when we say we're published, to make sure everyone knows what we mean.

stormie

03-17-2007, 04:25 AM

PA books are "published" under the very minimum definition of the word. They look like books, they read like books, they just don't sell like books.
I dunno. I've seen too many PA books that don't read like books. More like ramblings with poor grammar and spelling mixed in.

DaveKuzminski

03-17-2007, 04:37 AM

Anything can be published, even poorly written work.

The real crux of the matter occurs when it comes to marketing and distribution. This is what makes PA a scam and a wannabe. They don't have the support framework in place that the authors expect a publisher to have. That lack is what makes PA a printer and not even actually a printer since they haven't actually printed anything, at least not yet. We'll have to wait for them to plug in that printer they bought and produce some books. Then they'll actually be a printer.

In the meantime, PA is nothing more than an intermediary company skimming off as much gravy as they can while accepting work from writers and having a third party actually do the printing.

Meanwhile, even when PA gets that printer operating, they still won't be a real publisher, not in the "traditional" sense. The only thing traditional about PA is its ability to conduct a scam.

PVish

03-17-2007, 04:53 AM

Again, if you want to put serious pressure on PA, write an informative article about publishing scams and PA. Then submit it to your local newspaper. Submit it to your local church for their newsletter. Submit it to the AARP for their newsletter. Submit it to any publication you read, even if it's a hobby magazine. Sooner or later, some hobbiest will have a book ready. You might be saving him from PA especially if you point out how this applies to hobbiests as well as other writers.

Just remember, you have the power to alert your local community even if the national media networks doesn't see a story in this. Yet. Just think, if enough of AW's members do this in their local community at the same time, it could create a national phenomena that might gain news attention from the national media. Aim for May, but you have to submit soon. Give PA and the other scammers, such as Bouncin' Bobby, a May Day they'll never forget.

This past week, I've spoken to several high school creative writing classes, newspaper classes, and English classes. Each time, I told the story of my dog's Editor's Choice Award from the ILP and his offer of a contract from PA. Having his award in hand, along with all the ILP offers, PA emails, and the contract added credibility to the story. (FWIW, none of the kids could figure out who signed the PA contract.) A couple kids in each group had been scammed by poetry.com; now at least they won't fall for PA.

In one small group, we looked at various sites on the Internet (starting with PA) and discussed why they were scammy. Some of the kids picked out suspicious thingsthat I hadn't noticed. We also looked at some reputable publishers' sites and compared/contrasted.

ResearchGuy

03-17-2007, 08:24 AM

. . . an intermediary company skimming off as much gravy as they can while accepting work from writers and having a third party actually do the printing. . . . .
Which is pretty much the definition of commercial publishers. They contract out printing and unless dealing with an experienced author or agent and a manuscript they are really anxious to have, lowball the royalties (see p. 125 of Michael Larsen's How to Get a Literary Agent for an amusing take on that). Authors are simply raw-materials suppliers in a manufacturing business whose product is books.

Let's not get all misty-eyed about commercial publishing, especially these days when a half-dozen corporate behemoths control much of the industry and the rest are in dog-eat-dog competition.

No, obviously that does not justify a sleazy scam like PA or make its crappy methods and abysmal (sub)standards look any better. But commercial publishing is not exactly a charitable institution. They are in the business to make money. If you condemn profit motive and grasping methods, that has to go across the board. The problem with PA is that it is mercenary AND does rotten work while engaging in deliberate deception. Mercenary and good work (normal commercial publishing) is fine.

All IMHO, FWIW, YMMV.

--Ken

spike

03-17-2007, 06:53 PM

Which is pretty much the definition of commercial publishers. They contract out printing and unless dealing with an experienced author or agent and a manuscript they are really anxious to have, lowball the royalties (see p. 125 of Michael Larsen's How to Get a Literary Agent for an amusing take on that). Authors are simply raw-materials suppliers in a manufacturing business whose product is books.

Let's not get all misty-eyed about commercial publishing, especially these days when a half-dozen corporate behemoths control much of the industry and the rest are in dog-eat-dog competition.

No, obviously that does not justify a sleazy scam like PA or make its crappy methods and abysmal (sub)standards look any better. But commercial publishing is not exactly a charitable institution. They are in the business to make money. If you condemn profit motive and grasping methods, that has to go across the board. The problem with PA is that it is mercenary AND does rotten work while engaging in deliberate deception. Mercenary and good work (normal commercial publishing) is fine.

All IMHO, FWIW, YMMV.

--Ken

Ken,

While you are correct, I think you may have simplified the situation.

The difference is that commercial publishers put their own money at risk to produce the book. While authors may cry that their publisher does not do enough, commercial publishers pay for everything that takes the book from the manuscript form until it is in the bookstore.

People may call that profit-mongering. I call it a return on investment.

The difference with PA is that they claim they are not vanity, they do not put out the bucks that commercial publishers do. And I think that is the most insidious part of PA. They do not do the work of a commercial publisher, but they claim the profits of one.

zizban

03-17-2007, 07:18 PM

I have approached bookstores in my area but they wont touch PA books or any other POD books either - -and my daughter even worked in one of those stores. They said the books were overpriced and that the returns system was too expensive. I have contacted the local newspapers and they were not interested either. The only small success i have had is that two libraries now have it on their shelves - -courtesy of me giving them free copies.

To which someone adds:

I hate to say this, but the book stores that you've been trying to place your books in are being a bit arrogant.

I'll agree that the PA prices are too high.

I wonder how long that thread will last?