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Marian Perera
10-23-2007, 10:24 PM
Purple snowflake chimes in. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=23985)

You see, so many others would see sales under 10 books as a unworthy event. However, the thing is - and publicists/agents will confirm this- the key to book events is not the sales themselves; it is the fact that you are creating name recognition and gaining contacts in the industry. That should be our main goal as writers. Sales come naturally after that...

Gaining contacts in the industry? The author who sold nine copies said it was at the "Senior Citizen Fall Festival", so which contacts in the industry did she gain? Was there a retired agent or maybe an elderly editor among the senior citizens?

And here I was, thinking the main goal of a writer was to, you know, write. Au contraire, it is to network. This is like a glimpse into some Looking Glass Land.

Tina
10-23-2007, 10:39 PM
...I sell books at booksignings, like a normal author.

Cassandra, have you checked to see if you are eligible to join any of the writer's unions - as a full (usually voting) member, not an associate or "unpublished" member?

The writer's guilds and unions in both the US and Canada seem to have a different take on PA, based on the PA $1 advance, as well as the lack of vetting of books they print. They do not consider a PA book a legitimate publishing credit and they exist to help and support writers, not to hinder them.

Afinerosesheis
10-23-2007, 10:54 PM
A lot of writers seem to forget about compromise. There should be compromise in about every situation, at least that's the way I see it.

Authors should not have to do ALL the marketing, therfore have time to do their jobs as writers and actually write. On the other side though, a writer/author should be expected to help out with the marketing venture with their publisher behind them promoting in bookstores, catalogues, brochures etc. If a publisher doesn't do this then why should you? This is a must for any real chance at some lucrative sales.

I don't mind helping out with the marketing and networking, but I certainly shouldn't be expected to do it ALL. I'm a stay-at-home mom (except for the taxes) I couldn't afford to do it all even if I wanted to.

Christine N.
10-23-2007, 11:42 PM
That's just about right, Mel. Most authors do their promotion by showing up places. blogging, having a website, doing media interviews...

But all that doesn't help the PA author much, when their book is hard to find and overpriced. Let alone the editing and quality of the books.

I have a few goodies on my table - bookmarks, cover flats, excerpt booklets. None cost me much, and I don't try to find 'industry contacts' at the local craft fair. :) I'm glad to sell a book to a reader, but that's as far as it goes. Which is really fine, since readers are what I ultimately want.

I just don't expect to get thouands of readers that way.

General Joy
10-24-2007, 12:08 AM
Actually, I've seen quite a number of instances where PA authors, by their own admission, kept books on hand and tried to talk up people randomly to sell them. Where is the most common place where you can keep a bunch of books close to you at all times? The trunk of your car.



You can cite plenty of examples from the PA board to refute my point, but those posting on the board with those bad ideas are still going to be a fraction of PA authors overall, who aren't doing that. I guess I was just saying not to lump all of us in that category. I mean no offense, Christine, but I wouldn't even go as far as to bring my books to something not book-related. If the topic were to come up in conversation with someone, I'd hand him/her my card with my website on it, and leave it at that.

On another note, weren't we just talking about ridiculing authors on the PA board? I don't think it's exactly fair that this forum picks apart everything PA authors say, when they don't have a chance to explain or defend themselves. It's one thing to comment if an author says "PA told me I'd make $3 million!" (obviously NOT GOING TO HAPPEN) But it's another to make fun of marketing ideas that even commercially published authors participate in, or to ridicule an author's booksigning experience.

Marian Perera
10-24-2007, 12:21 AM
But it's another to make fun of marketing ideas that even commercially published authors participate in, or to ridicule an author's booksigning experience.

I am glad the author sold nine books and I hope she sells many more. What I commented on was the snowflake's encouraging her to believe that marketing and networking should be her primary goal as a writer. Plus, the idea that she's making industry contacts in a senior citizens' festival is just strange. I didn't see that as making fun of the author's booksigning experience.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should just post PAMB quotes here sans commentary. Or maybe not post anything at all.

jamiehall
10-24-2007, 01:08 AM
You can cite plenty of examples from the PA board to refute my point, but those posting on the board with those bad ideas are still going to be a fraction of PA authors overall, who aren't doing that. I guess I was just saying not to lump all of us in that category.


Quite true. Only a small fraction of PA authors even post on the PAMB, so it is unfair to base too many generalizations on what is said there. But it is also true that (except for PA authors who have stopped supporting PA and gathered here and a few other places) there doesn't seem to be much sign of the other thousands of PA authors. We don't get to hear their thoughts or ideas. We don't really know how they are promoting their books. So, we choose between generalizing from what we can access, or guessing about what we can't access. Most people choose to base their opinions on what we can access on the PAMB, which is admittedly kind of unfair, but there doesn't really seem to be a good substitute.

I certainly don't think that all PA authors are alike, or that all authors snared by the vanity-press industry are alike. For one thing, I got taken in by Authorhouse, and for a time I was on a track of trying to promote my book and failing. This course has many similarities to what PA authors go through (minus the tone letters and a few other unpleasantries unique to PA). And, I know that I'm different than most vanity-published authors, and that my book is different. So, no, I don't feel like lumping all PA authors into the same category. That would feel too much like insulting myself, and it would run counter to my own knowledge and experience too.


On another note, weren't we just talking about ridiculing authors on the PA board? I don't think it's exactly fair that this forum picks apart everything PA authors say, when they don't have a chance to explain or defend themselves.


It is kind of unfair at times, but those authors are welcome to come here and explain themselves. If their words were taken out of context, or the attitude is one more of ridicule than of helping to educate about the follies promoted by PA, then they certainly have something to complain about.


It's one thing to comment if an author says "PA told me I'd make $3 million!" (obviously NOT GOING TO HAPPEN) But it's another to make fun of marketing ideas that even commercially published authors participate in, or to ridicule an author's booksigning experience.

True, and I think that's why there has been so much discussion about exactly how and where one should draw the line between types of promotion that are okay and types that are just sad.

It is true that authors at booksignings might draw a few more people to their table if they have something such as a little bowl of chocolates there, and that the chocolates may have only cost $1 so that the author isn't really going to hurt if it doesn't work.

It is also true that some legitimately-published authors buy their own books for resale, under very specific circumstances, as has been discussed.

In each case, the details of the situation make all the difference in the world. In order to make the distinction, these are some questions to ask:

1) How much money and/or time did the author spend on this type of promotion?

2) What will the author stand to lose if this doesn't work?

3) Is this type of promotion a harmonious supplement to the much greater marketing efforts put forth by the publisher, or is it something that will be the only way readers are likely to hear about the book?

In many instances, it is a question of scale. Something that is within the bounds of reason on a small scale, say a bowl of $1 chocolates, becomes ridiculous when it is taken to the level where it becomes expensive and/or time consuming for the author. This is particularly true when the author has no support from the publisher, and so the marketing efforts will be pretty much doomed from the start.

I think much of what comes across as ridicule here is not ridicule per se so much as it is trying to point out the folly that is inherent in PA by showing that it drives people to ridiculous extremes. We are not saying to PA authors you guys are ridiculous, we are instead saying, you guys have been victimized in such a way that you are being pushed into ridiculous actions just to get a few books out there. The first statement would be completely unfair, and a bannable offense as well. The second statement is not only fair, it is said with compassion and the intent to spread the truth.

brianm
10-24-2007, 01:23 AM
I think much of what comes across as ridicule here is not ridicule per se so much as it is trying to point out the folly that is inherent in PA by showing that it drives people to ridiculous extremes. We are not saying to PA authors you guys are ridiculous, we are instead saying, you guys have been victimized in such a way that you are being pushed into ridiculous actions just to get a few books out there. The first statement would be completely unfair, and a bannable offense as well. The second statement is not only fair, it is said with compassion and the intent to spread the truth.

Well said, Jamie.

JulieB
10-24-2007, 01:23 AM
I think much of what comes across as ridicule here is not ridicule per se so much as it is trying to point out the folly that is inherent in PA by showing that it drives people to ridiculous extremes.

Exactly.

You made several other excellent points as well.

Christine, another thing about you selling your own books: You don't have inflated expectations. No one has told you that it's the only way you can become a best-selling author, or that it's the only way to get a second book published through your publisher. If they have, you didn't buy it.

I should point out that there are PA authors who understand that as well. Sadly, they don't seem to be prevalent on the PAMB.

Christine N.
10-24-2007, 01:25 AM
It's not so much the efforts at all, as it is that it's the ONLY effort behind the book. I've said it before - I don't have a problem with PA authors, my beef is with PA.

Things I do are not the only things being done. Which was my point on the buying books thing. I do it, but I am not the main point of distribution for my books. I'm not bending over backwards coming up with magnetized signs for my car, or hand stenciling M&M's (still a favorite), I'm just showing up and signing books and making change. My publisher doesn't send me e-mails offering me 'specials' on my own book, written like a sales pitch. Hurry, hurry, hurry, buy NOW!.

I say 'hey, I need books. This many', and she ships them out. Simple as that. I don't HAVE to do it for books to be sold, I CHOOSE to do it.

No offence taken. To each his own. At this time of year we have a ton of local festivals. I've hooked up with another local small press author and we attend together. We've done quite well, even at non-book related ones, because we're part of the community. And since we go together, we split the booth fee, which is usually very small, so if we each sell a single copy we've broken even.

We've never sold just a single copy, so we always come out ahead. It's not for everyone, but we're having fun.Like Julie said, my expectations are just to meet people and maybe sell some books. Nothing much more than that.

Again, when I do signings in a bookstore, I don't have to worry about books not showing up and I don't have to do consignment or bring my own, which has happened to more than one PA author. Bookstore appearances are very different from community events that I do to be an active part of my community. And again, I don't have to give the hardsell or push my book on people, because I'm not up to my neck in debt from purchasing books.

Which is my main problem with PA. Well, one of the main ones.

Sparhawk
10-24-2007, 01:34 AM
You can cite plenty of examples from the PA board to refute my point, but those posting on the board with those bad ideas are still going to be a fraction of PA authors overall, who aren't doing that. I guess I was just saying not to lump all of us in that category. I mean no offense, Christine, but I wouldn't even go as far as to bring my books to something not book-related. If the topic were to come up in conversation with someone, I'd hand him/her my card with my website on it, and leave it at that.

On another note, weren't we just talking about ridiculing authors on the PA board? I don't think it's exactly fair that this forum picks apart everything PA authors say, when they don't have a chance to explain or defend themselves. It's one thing to comment if an author says "PA told me I'd make $3 million!" (obviously NOT GOING TO HAPPEN) But it's another to make fun of marketing ideas that even commercially published authors participate in, or to ridicule an author's booksigning experience.

Hi Cassandra,

It's great to see you over here. I don't look at it as we're maknig fun of the author in particular (I confess at times we... myself included... do need to temper our commentary), but I think the jist of it is that we've seen the same ideas hashed and rehashed over and over and over again, I go back to 2003 on the PA boards and everything seems cyclical. The bulk of the newbies are discouraged after nine to ten months post publication and fade off into the sunset, a good portion of those authors wind up here.

Do the PA authors use some marketing and promoting methods that other authors with other publishers use? Yes. But here's the difference, to have a successful promotion, one also must have a distribution force behind that; ergo the publisher. PA doesn't want it's authors marketing bookstores which is why they place the barreirs to entry into that highly sought after market. PA wants YOU to buy YOUR book and sell it yourself thereby removing all thier potential risk and maximize ther profit by not having to even pay you royalties on those self purchases. That is their business model and as long as PA authors know what they're getting into before they sign the contract then no harm no foul.

When my book comes out in March 08 and my second one in Jan 09, my publisher will work with me to promote my books and help me get signings etc. My job is to attend these venues and promote myslef and my product in a professional manner. I'll do this gladly because I want to succeed and I want to see my books in the hands of readers outside my immediate circle of family and friends. It is a partnership that leads to a lucrative end to both parties. With Publish America, only the publisher is making money... or the lions share, the author is going in debt or barely scraping by under the pretense of promoting and the false pretense that this is how the game is played in the other publishing establishments as well.

This is my view and my opinion. I don't say it to be offensive or confrontational, I say it because I've lived it as an ex PA author who's found new life for his work and is just begining to realize how the business really is supposed to work. I am far from an expert but I'm learning fast through experience.

I've read some of your work and you're incredibly gifted. I wish you nothing but happiness and success in your writing career.

Tina
10-24-2007, 02:56 AM
I've read some of your work and you're incredibly gifted. I wish you nothing but happiness and success in your writing career.

Sparhawk isn't kidding. Cassandra, you've got real talent girl! Your website excerpt is very good. While I may draw some flack for saying this, I haven't seen writing of this calibre on a PA-author website thus far. That's the truth.

Can I ask why you choose PA? Did you try finding an agent or small publisher that accepts unsolicited queries?

Because if not, it seems a terrific book might not get the recognition it deserves for seven years, until the PA contract is up and you can shop your manuscript to a publisher that will market and promote it properly.

That's a damn shame.

I hate seeing talent wasted.

General Joy
10-24-2007, 04:48 AM
Sparhawk isn't kidding. Cassandra, you've got real talent girl! Your website excerpt is very good. While I may draw some flack for saying this, I haven't seen writing of this calibre on a PA-author website thus far. That's the truth.

Can I ask why you choose PA? Did you try finding an agent or small publisher that accepts unsolicited queries?



Thanks. Would you tell that to an agent for me? :D

I didn't choose PA knowing all that I know now... otherwise I wouldn't have chosen them, obviously. A guy who works in my building mentioned getting his book published... I asked who his publisher was, and when he said PublishAmerica, I had never heard of them, and thought I would submit my book to them. By that time, I had gotten a few rejections from other publishers I sent the Liquid Bones ms to. It was my fault for not digging a little deeper in researching PA, because we all know that their website is very misleading.

I'm not all that worried about the fate of LB, because I've written two more books since then (and would rather that they remain unpublished forever rather than submit them to PA, or even Xlibris, iUniverse, etc.), so I'm only going forward. I doubt I'll even try to get it republished in 5 years, when the PA contract is up.

Christine N.
10-24-2007, 04:51 AM
Good for you!

I hear ya on the agent thing. I'd try some smaller publishers if your next agent search comes up bust.

Marian Perera
10-24-2007, 05:21 AM
The misinformation on the PAMB never stops. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=23970)

Just a little sugestion, and I am not trying to sound harsh or anything, but I was told a while ago by someone I respect alot. Do not tell anyone what your working on, untill it is published. There are alot of reasons for this one so noone can take a idea, second there is this thing called plagerisum. A very nasty word in the writing business.

Maybe that's one reason so few of these authors post excerpts from their WIPs or discuss their work on the PAMB. I thought that was because the writing itself took second place (at best) to the promoting and selling, but it never occurred to me that they might be so concerned about being ripped off.

Joanna_S
10-24-2007, 06:32 AM
The woman who wrote that has a number of books out from several publishers. She also mentions having an agent. Why on earth is she putting a book out through PA? She should know better.

-- Joanna

PVish
10-24-2007, 06:53 AM
The woman who wrote that has a number of books out from several publishers. She also mentions having an agent. Why on earth is she putting a book out through PA? She should know better.
-- Joanna

And from the same author on the same PAMB thread:

. . . . So far I've not been given any options; just turned the manuscript in last week. I'd like to get the book within a few months because I've got a writer's workshop coming up where I'd like to sell the book. The title of my PA book is: How to Write Your Book and Get it Published THE WRITE WAY.

Anyone see the irony here? From a visit to her website, I notice she's got some legit publishing credits and she seems to write well. Plus she teaches workshops.

How did she get involved in PA's clutches?

I suppose the only good thing that might result from this is that she'll be in a position to expose PA for what it is. Shouldn't take her long to find out.

Afinerosesheis
10-24-2007, 07:49 AM
I don't want to make fun of any author or ridicule them, but I'm sure I have made mistakes or crossed the line and would apologize to anyone for my wrongs. Don't forget that I have been there, many of us here have been there. It isn't as if we don't know what we're talking about. I visit the PAMB from time to time. I never try to log in, I'm afraid I'd be UN-banned and that would be BAD!

There are some postings that I see that put my gut in knots, make me sick and sad. It is as if I am there again. Shell-shock.

I feel the confusion and desperation for the right answer(s). I am a new author and I should be SO excited, at least everyone says I should. Yet that is not quite what I feel. I am trying to stay out of the way of those wolves who will take me down in an instant if I say the wrong thing or question why PA did what. I feel it all again as I peruse the postings and for me it is not a good feeling. There is something sinister that lies at PA/PAMB. And if there is a lurker who reads my posts and identifies, then they are the better for it.

For the most part I believe no one here on this thread is out to ridicule. Of course there are always exceptions.
I still say PA authors can market til the cows come home and for the most part, I think they will be sorely disappointed. You see that expecially with people on SSI (for example). Now THOSE and authors like them are the real victims. They have a book to be sure, but that's about it. They can't afford to market and then they may feel as if it is their own fault their royalty checks are next to nothing.
It takes a lot of work to write a book (at least I thought it did), I think an author's efforts should be worth a little more than what PA offers.

OK my tangent is over...for now.
Good night~~

TwentyFour
10-24-2007, 08:08 AM
The problem with it can sometimes go back to those who take over the boards, the old sage and madame's of the board, they keep saying it is the authors own fault for the failures they recieve. If someone asks on PAMB for info about marketing, they push the idea that the author must do everything and if you make no money, it is your own fault. I feel bad for those who get ridiculed on PAMB rather than those who get ridiculed elsewhere, because that is a board by their very own publisher and they are put down in the public eye for everyone to see. If those who are older and feel they should be in control on PAMB would stop telling and pushing their ideas on everyone, some of the newbies may be able to figure it out and realize PA isn't in it for the author to make money, rather the opposite.

Jersey Chick
10-24-2007, 08:10 AM
Whew - I go away for a few days and come back to find I am waaay lost...

Or I was. Now I think I'm kind of caught up...

I like to think that no one is making fun of any one author - but the bottom line is that it isn't personalized M&Ms or lollipop trees that are going to sell books. They just won't. What sells a book is a good, relatively well-written story. I don't care how much candy or bookmarks you put out on a table, I don't buy books based on that. If I find the cover blurb interesting, I buy. If I flip through and find enough typos and grammar errors to make my eyes bleed, you could put out champagne and monogrammed caviar, I'm probably not going to buy the next book.

And don't even get me started on price....

emsuniverse
10-24-2007, 08:54 AM
I am glad the author sold nine books and I hope she sells many more. What I commented on was the snowflake's encouraging her to believe that marketing and networking should be her primary goal as a writer. Plus, the idea that she's making industry contacts in a senior citizens' festival is just strange. I didn't see that as making fun of the author's booksigning experience.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should just post PAMB quotes here sans commentary. Or maybe not post anything at all.

I want the PA authors to sell as many books as possible. Really, I do. However, I know that the odds are stacked against them.

It doesn't matter how many pretty bookmarks they print, how many "industry contacts" they make, or how many personalized M&Ms they distribute. The bottom line is that they are trying to sell a piece of work that is overpriced, badly put together, with typos (no matter how many times the author goes through it or hires someone to go through it, the infamous PA spellcheck is just going to add errors in it), with stock art covers (some that involve obvious copyright infringement), and published by a company that is not reputatable among the publishing industry.

Some of the ideas the PA authors come up with are clever. Some of the ideas they come up with are very unorthodox. When we talk about the rather unusual ways that some PA people (not all, just some) try to promote their book(s), we're not ridiculing. We're discussing it.

We do this for two main reasons. First, we know that there are lurkers here. Good lurkers and bad lurkers. The good lurkers are the ones who are reading this thread and it's helped them a) stay away from PA or b) get out of PA. The bad lurkers are the PA staff. They read these threads, they monitor them. If someone from PA posts here, they'll return to the PAMB and their passworld probably won't work.

Second, we're documenting here. The PA staff is rather notorious for deleting threads on the PAMB that aren't flattering. They'll even go so far as to alter someone's post to where it's flattering for the company or that will make the poster look bad.

For any PA authors who are lurking out there, please understand that we are not making fun of you. If and when you decide that publishing with PA is no longer an option for you, we're here for you. Several PA authors have gone from PAMB-posters to AW-posters. If you feel like you are being ridiculed on this thread (or any thread in the PA subforum), you can sign up and post about it. We will happily talk to you and explain why we say what we say.

Em

Tina
10-24-2007, 07:58 PM
...It takes a lot of work to write a book (at least I thought it did), I think an author's efforts should be worth a little more than what PA offers.


There's no question that the act of writing an entire, book-length manuscript is a major accomplishment. It takes time and serious dedication.

That does not mean that the finished product is automatically suitable for publication. "Author" used to be a name that took years of hard work, starting at the bottom, to earn. Now there seem to be a lot of people who want to slap it on like a nametag for instant entitlement.

When I looked at Cassandra's website, she has all the hallmarks of a serious writer. She's written a multitude of stories and articles, reads widely, has won awards and has been writing since she was a kid. (And no, you don't have to start during childhood but writers who write for the love of it are a different breed then those that churn out a single book expecting it to be an instant bestseller.)

Writers don't "deserve" anything. It is the work, the writing that decides the worthiness.

Sheryl Nantus
10-24-2007, 08:28 PM
Writers don't "deserve" anything. It is the work, the writing that decides the worthiness.

and there's the rub - nothing annoys me more than a PA author strutting around with the attitude that they DESERVE to be published because they managed to finish a book. Especially when said book is usually a novella, if that.

there's a lot more to being a successful author than vomiting words onto a page - if it were that simple then everyone would have their own volume of epic prose on the shelf!

while there may be some PA authors who have the raw talent to be a good author, it's lost in the mob mentality that somehow they DESERVE to be published because they managed to put a thought down on paper. That there's no real skill to writing; that their words are golden along with the belief that no publisher is looking for new authors.

Afinerosesheis
10-24-2007, 10:24 PM
I didn't mean to open another can of worms here. But perhaps there are some PA authors who DO deserve more with their writing than what PA offers. Just because they signed with PA doesn't mean they do not have potential to be great despite the poor editing and whatnot. With another publisher, of course. There is, however, much work to be done on their end to obtain better.

I don't so much mean "I deserve to be published."

Maybe "I deserve better next time."...if I am willing to put the work into it.

Jersey Chick
10-24-2007, 11:31 PM
It's been said repeatedly here that there are probably some very good writers who are lost in the PA dreck. I don't have any numbers but if PA actually had a slush pile the ratio of publishable vs unpublishable might not be any different from a true publisher. The problem becomes that there is no slush pile at PA because they don't differentiate (did I spell that right?) good writing from unpublishable garbage, so even the good writers are tainted by association.

Unfortunately, a good majority of the PAMB posters suffer from "Golden Word" Syndrome. But, as has been pointed out here, they are a small portion of the author pool over there. And judging by those PAMBers whose websites I've seen, the writing is terrible. I've read excerpts that have given me headaches and made me want to stab myself in the eye with a screwdriver - but that's not saying they're all that bad. I think the ones with true potential are the ones who realize the emperor isn't wearing any clothes. Just as not every published writer is a literary genius, not every PA writer is role playing. If that makes any sense - I've been unpacking like crazy and I'm really worn out. :D

JMHO.

Afinerosesheis
10-24-2007, 11:56 PM
You said it well enough, Jerz. I think when I posted the intital post, I was speaking a little more from a personal POV. I realize my book isn't where it might be if I'd chosen more wisely.

jamiehall
10-25-2007, 03:08 AM
Anyone see the irony here? From a visit to her website, I notice she's got some legit publishing credits and she seems to write well. Plus she teaches workshops.

How did she get involved in PA's clutches?

I suppose the only good thing that might result from this is that she'll be in a position to expose PA for what it is. Shouldn't take her long to find out.

You'd think she would know better, but I can easily imagine how she made this mistake. I do know that one of the few legitimate uses for self-published or POD books is for someone who has a ready-made audience at workshops and/or speeches. She may have seen other writers with workshops selling POD books or self-published books. It is entirely possible that this woman knew this fact, and thought she was getting the cheapest vanity-publishing around, so that she'd make a big profit. She may have thought that one POD self-publishing service provider is just as good as any other. It might not have occurred to her that PA could be much, much worse than any other vanity press and that she'd need to do some real research first.

Of course, if that's how she thought, then she's still wrong, but it is easy to see how she'd think it. If you think you know under what circumstances vanity publishing, self-publishing, POD and similar things should be used, you might not think that there is something out there ten times worse than all the rest.

I didn't mean to open another can of worms here. But perhaps there are some PA authors who DO deserve more with their writing than what PA offers. Just because they signed with PA doesn't mean they do not have potential to be great despite the poor editing and whatnot. With another publisher, of course. There is, however, much work to be done on their end to obtain better.

I don't so much mean "I deserve to be published."

Maybe "I deserve better next time."...if I am willing to put the work into it.

I think that what has been said so far on this topic has often been worded in a confusing way, and occasionally sounds kind of insulting to authors. To believe in yourself, in your work, in your talent, these are all necessary ingredients for a writer's life. Each and every one of us has the right to believe that our work is good and that we'll be published for real someday. That belief should be tempered by a willingness to work at improving, but there is nothing wrong with believing in your own talent. That belief is one of the major things that keeps us going. How many of us would write if we thought we'd never, ever get published? Maybe 50% of us would do it for free and post it on the web, and the rest would probably just quit.

There is a similar attitude promoted by PA that might seem like the same kind of belief at first glance, but dig a bit deeper and you'll see that it is not okay. This is the idea that deservedness to be published has nothing to do with the amount of work put into writing, the quality of the writing or the talent of the author, but rather is a right of every person. PA promotes this idea on the PAMB and among its authors for a number of reasons: because this sort of empty validation is a feel-good tactic that helps ensnare more victims, because it leads writers to think that marketing is the only key they need to succeed, and because it encourages authors to submit manuscripts faster, without waiting to polish them more (in that extra time, they might research or think more and get out of the trap).

I think that sometimes when people here talk about the entitlement attitude promoted by PA and on the PAMB, it kind of sounds like they are saying that writers shouldn't believe in themselves until after they are published, which is certainly not the case. If you (this "you" applies to anyone who is reading this) do not suffer from Golden Word Syndrome (the inability to accept editing) then such statements certainly don't apply to you. Your inner sense of deservedness should not suffer because of comments made about a few individuals who took that idea to extremes. Go ahead and keep believing that your work is good and that you deserved to get published. It is what pretty much all of us do, or we wouldn't even be here.

I think that a lot of people on the PAMB are at an early stage in their writing, where they haven't yet learned about polishing, editing, critique groups, beta readers and other such aspects of the writing process. You often see them say that they are on their first book. They are at a stage that most of us were once at - when we thought that first drafts were publishable. What they publish through PA tends to consist of first drafts. It is often kind of unfair to poke at their skills too vigorously, because many of them could produce much improved material if they applied themselves and learned as much as they could for a few years. And, of course, some are quite talented and would only need to improve their skills a bit, or are even ready to be published right now.

I think every author has some writing from this early stage that is terrible. I've certainly got stuff like that, but I've steadily improved for years, and now I'm at a different level. Professional artists don't get judged by the first drawings they ever produced, and it is likewise kind of unfair to judge writers by the first book they ever wrote.

However, pointing out the shortcomings in the writing of many PA authors does serve a purpose, just like Atlanta Nights (http://www.critters.org/sting/) serves a purpose: to show that PA is not selective as they claim, but that PA actually accepts absolutely every quality of manuscript: good, mediocre, bad, or so terrible that you'll never be able to stop telling your friends how awful it was.

ResearchGuy
10-25-2007, 04:43 AM
You'd think she would know better . . .
I realize that this is heresy here, but has anyone considered the possibility that she made a rational and informed choice? Perhaps a non-confrontational inquiry as to why she chose that route for that book (one that does not imply that she is a fool) would lead to an interesting response. It seems a puzzling choice for an experienced and legitimately published author, but what is the rest of the story?

--Ken

Joanna_S
10-25-2007, 05:05 AM
It's that lack of a filter that gives rise to some of the generalities spouted on this board. No one thinks every PA book is badly written. We know there is quality hidden amongst the thousands of titles. Pure statistics dictate it. The ratio of good to bad is as lopsided as any slushpile, of course. This means that you can randomly click the link on a PAMB poster's sig line and their work has the possibility of being good, but the probability of not being ready for publishing. Just a dose of cold reality.

The entitlement exhibited on the PAMB can therefore be grating. Most people acknowledge that a difficult skill takes a long time to develop. You wouldn't decide one day to be a diamond cutter or doctor and expect the world to hand you the job. Yet the vast majority of people think they can write well and therefore the act of finishing a book is seen as the only thing necessary to getting pubished.

To most of us, the most heart-breaking thing about the PA scam are those writers who genuinely deserve a legitimate shot. Those are ones we hope will find their way here. They're serious about writing. They deserve so much more than PA. I'd hazard to guess that the ex-PAers who find this forum have a high probability of being in that group. They recognize AW as the writer's resource that it is. They recognize that PA is not what it pretends to be.

In short, they're writers.

-- Joanna

Jersey Chick
10-25-2007, 05:14 AM
I should post some of my earlier work - you'd be rolling on the floor or running for the nearest barf bag. It was AWFUL. And I thought it was BRILLIANT :D - couldn't believe the noive of publishers for shooting it down. Looking back, I'd be beyond mortified if it had been accepted (which is why it will never again emerge from the graveyard that is my desk drawer.)

Of course, hindsight is 20/20 - had there been a PA when I was submitting those atrocious "books", I could have very easily fallen into the muck as well.

Marian Perera
10-25-2007, 05:14 AM
More looking-glass logic. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24050)

Before writing a review, it is important for the reviewer to read the synopsis of a book. I am not sure how many of you bother to read the synopsis of a book before reviewing it, but it is extremely helpful to do so.

If a reviewer does not read the synopsis first, he or she will struggle to understand the book.

Synopses : The essential Cliff Notes for reviewers.

Joanna_S
10-25-2007, 07:12 AM
If a reviewer does not read the synopsis first, he or she will struggle to understand the book.

Wow, that's... wow. Left me speechless, it did.

-- Joanna

TwentyFour
10-25-2007, 09:03 AM
I realize that this is heresy here, but has anyone considered the possibility that she made a rational and informed choice? Perhaps a non-confrontational inquiry as to why she chose that route for that book (one that does not imply that she is a fool) would lead to an interesting response. It seems a puzzling choice for an experienced and legitimately published author, but what is the rest of the story?

--Ken
Then why didn't you allow DTTC to be published with PA? Maybe the author had considered every other possibility and made a "rational and informed choice"? If we sat around saying PA was a viable choice no matter what the outcome, then it isn't much of a bewares and background forum.

emsuniverse
10-25-2007, 09:45 AM
I realize that this is heresy here, but has anyone considered the possibility that she made a rational and informed choice? Perhaps a non-confrontational inquiry as to why she chose that route for that book (one that does not imply that she is a fool) would lead to an interesting response. It seems a puzzling choice for an experienced and legitimately published author, but what is the rest of the story?

--Ken

I honestly don't know how to respond to that. You're actually implying that PA is a legitimate publisher, which it is not. At all. I'm not saying the woman was a fool for publishing with them; plenty of people have, plenty more people will. Those who publish with them are not stupid, they are not ignorant, they were misled. Simple as that. It seems strange that woman published through them after being published elsewhere, but stranger things have happened.

emsuniverse
10-25-2007, 09:49 AM
Wow, that's... wow. Left me speechless, it did.

So, in order for a reviewer to review a book, all they have to do is read the synopsis? Not read the actual book? This explains so many five star reviews... All they do is read the back, write a vague review that could apply to just about any book from Moby Dick to Lean Mean Thirteen, and pass it along.

Just... wow.

TwentyFour
10-25-2007, 04:22 PM
Hi fellow writers! Has anyone received the 10% royalties by selling 5000 copies?

Link here (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24053) No answers yet.

TwentyFour
10-25-2007, 04:34 PM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24035

Cards are easy to do using MS-Word. You can put your book cover on them.
You can provide your own books for book signing events. Since PA discount for authors is great. Buy a dozen, and you will pay a share of the profit to the shop where the book signing is done. With this offer the shop will not reject you..
Relax, You will do well. Just smile as the old Chinese proverb advises the sales marketing people.
oh, that is a great smile.

Good advice is so hard to come by, I sure am glad PA has this available for free.

Jersey Chick
10-25-2007, 06:55 PM
Struggle to understand the book? Without reading the synopsis?

What books are that person reading?? If that's the case, a) why would the synopsis be any less difficult and b) if the book is that difficult, maybe it shouldn't have been published in the first place??

JulieB
10-25-2007, 07:04 PM
Wow (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=266511#266511).

I have business cards that I hand out to everyone I meet...the bank teller, I leave one on the table with the tip at the resraunts, I mail them with all my bill payments and when writing to family and friends around the country, I put extras in the envelope for them to pass around. I also leave them on the drivers side window of cars in parkinglots.

How many sales do you suppose this author has gained? How many people do you suppose this author has ticked off? How many people do you suppose have totally ignored the card and tossed them in the recycle bin litter parking lots?

Here's a tip, and I'm not being rude or sarcastic. Put them in approved places, like the community bulletin boards at grocery stores and restaurants. You know, places were people are actually LOOKING for information. I'd be much more likely to take the time to look at cards placed there than stuffed in Christmas cards (oh, noes! It's almost that time of year!) or in my car door (when I'm juggling bags) or other places.

Believe me, the people who unstuff your bills are going to be more annoyed at you than clamoring for your book - that is, if they notice the card as it goes fluttering to the floor. Now I HAVE given a bank teller my card - after he asked for it. He wanted to visit my web site - after he asked me about what I do. (I was making a deposit to my business account.)

The poster goes further:

My kids have all taken the business cards and pass them out at school and or work.

In our school district a kid (or teacher) could get into trouble for that. And some workplaces have rules against solicitation.

I suspect this person is in the honeymoon phase, eager to get the word out. I understand that, but I suspect that there's such a thing as too much self promotion.

Sheryl Nantus
10-25-2007, 07:43 PM
there's a thin line between self-promoting and just being rude.

the sadder thing is going to be when the first royalty check arrives and the author sees that all that work has gone to naught.

not to mention alienating friends and family who may not want to be harassed constantly to purchase an unedited, overpriced first draft.

ResearchGuy
10-25-2007, 08:20 PM
Then why didn't you allow DTTC to be published with PA?. . .
Because for THAT BOOK and THAT AUTHOR it would have been a very bad choice.

One of my acquaintances who has a PA book is finding that for her own book and her purposes PA has worked well. At this point, I cannot disagree with her. She made a reasoned choice and is satisfied with the results. I know that enrages some here, but so be it.

--Ken

ResearchGuy
10-25-2007, 08:24 PM
I honestly don't know how to respond to that. You're actually implying that PA is a legitimate publisher, which it is not. . . .
Please do not distort my meaning. Read what I wrote. Do not twist it into something different.

--Ken

TwentyFour
10-25-2007, 09:07 PM
I'm not one bit enraged by PA, I have no connections to them other than watching their lousy business practices. My enraged moments are for unpaid bills, overdue library books, and when my child misbehaves. I do however get road rage occassionally but I try to limit that.

James D. Macdonald
10-25-2007, 11:46 PM
The PA pages are very misleading. I suspect that this author thinks that PA is a legitimate small press.

Let's wait a year to see what she thinks of PA then.

Tina
10-26-2007, 12:50 AM
Because for THAT BOOK and THAT AUTHOR it would have been a very bad choice.

One of my acquaintances who has a PA book is finding that for her own book and her purposes PA has worked well. At this point, I cannot disagree with her. She made a reasoned choice and is satisfied with the results. I know that enrages some here, but so be it.

--Ken

I sure don't love the idea of a writer giving up their rights for seven years (which means about a six-year wait once they realize PA isn't what they thought).

However, if someone has done significant research and still chooses PA, we can only wish them well and hope they stay happy. And keep writing.

BarbJ
10-26-2007, 01:26 AM
One of my acquaintances who has a PA book is finding that for her own book and her purposes PA has worked well. At this point, I cannot disagree with her. She made a reasoned choice and is satisfied with the results. I know that enrages some here, but so be it.

--Ken

Not meaning to enrage you, and feeling unenraged at any author for going with PA. It's PA that enrages me. If someone does the research and still feels PA meets their needs, I'm sure they can find a company that does equally well without the misleading convolutions and the seven-year contract - and the scorn commonly heaped on the author that attempts to end the contract.

They should also think of future endeavors; one is often known by the publishing company they keep. I know nothing of anyone who has walked into PA with their eyes open, or their reasons, but I know they're lending credibility (and financial support) to a company that feeds on the ignorant. I'm glad you turned the Dandelion author away from the cesspool.

ResearchGuy
10-26-2007, 01:41 AM
. . . I'm sure they can find a company that does equally well without the misleading convolutions and the seven-year contract - and the scorn commonly heaped on the author that attempts to end the contract. . . .
The author to whom I alluded does not feel that she was misled. She is quite satisfied, and regularly reminds one and all of that. Nor does she feel scorn (although she found my disapproval of PA offensive). Her audience could not care less about the PublishAmerica logo and seems to overcome the price, as the book fills a unique niche. She could not have found a better opportunity considering her specific needs and capacities and circumstances -- not without someone like me volunteering a great many unpaid hours to help, and maybe not even then.

Yes, I know folks here find it hard to get their heads around that, but they are unaware of the specific facts (and, frankly, probably brutally indifferent to them). My interest right here in River City is to keep folks like that author from misleading those with real opportunities (or at least with better options) into settling for PA.

--Ken

ResearchGuy
10-26-2007, 01:50 AM
The PA pages are very misleading. I suspect that this author thinks that PA is a legitimate small press.

Let's wait a year to see what she thinks of PA then.
Well, considering that over the nine months or so since publication she has become increasingly pleased with the results, I do not expect a change. Her book was not and never could have been commercially publishable. (That is not to say it lacks value, but only that it has no potential for a commercial publisher: too small an audience for its topic and content.) But it has an audience and she has gotten the book into the hands of that audience.

But all of this wanders away from the point I suggested earlier: if the author who was previously under discussion has real publishing credits (normal, commercial books and more) and yet chose PA for a new book, maybe it would be illuminating to ask her why she made that choice -- without insulting her in the process of inquiring. Perhaps there is a perfectly rational explanation.

--Ken

Afinerosesheis
10-26-2007, 02:00 AM
Out of twenty some thousand authors it is not unreasonable to find a "success" story or two somewhere in there. If they are happy and not blinded to the fallouts, then everyone is satisfied and live happily ever after. =)

I assume this author stays away from the PA message boards?

Marian Perera
10-26-2007, 05:05 AM
Struggle to understand the book? Without reading the synopsis?

What books is that person reading?? If that's the case, a) why would the synopsis be any less difficult and b) if the book is that difficult, maybe it shouldn't have been published in the first place??

I'm glad you asked, Jerz. The author has elaborated on why it is necessary for all readers (not just reviewers) to reread (not just read) a synopsis.

Most people read a synopsis a second or third time even after they've read a large portion of the narrative. The synopsis helps to view what you've already read in a different light. It is not merely there to give you a general idea of what the novel is about. I am quite sure that any experienced author and reader would agree.

The reason a writer makes so much effort to write a synopsis is that it should be read more than once. Even after someone completes a novel, he or she reads the synopsis another time before reading the novel for a second time.

The synopsis isn't merely a commercial introduction, but also the body of the novel itself, which readers can read and reread. Readers can read the synopsis a second time just like they can read the novel a second time.

JulieB
10-26-2007, 05:20 AM
The synopsis isn't merely a commercial introduction, but also the body of the novel itself, which readers can read and reread. Readers can read the synopsis a second time just like they can read the novel a second time.

I think my head just exploded.

brianm
10-26-2007, 05:27 AM
When did a cover blurb become a synopsis?

JulieB
10-26-2007, 05:44 AM
Now you know why my head exploded.

ResearchGuy
10-26-2007, 06:30 AM
. . . I assume this author stays away from the PA message boards?
You assume correctly. She does not use email or the Web. She paid someone to upload her manuscript file to PA and to handle email correspondence.

By the way, as I was reading Dickens's delicious Bleak House, and ruminating for a moment on his deft touch in revealing such human frailties as vanity, it occured to me that perhaps the problem here is that some folks simply do not recognize, do not even contemplate, that it is the business of a vanity press (such as PA) to appeal to vanity.

It should not really be a surprise or a mystery that a vanity press does successfully appeal to vanity. Nor should it be a surprise that those whose vanity is successfully tapped by a vanity press are oblivious to the nature of the transaction.

PA will only go out of business when human nature changes.

Given PA's uniquely low threshold of access (no advance fees, acceptance of pretty much anything) and facade of legitimacy sufficient to persuade those who are already highly susceptible by virtue of their own vanity (and perhaps neediness), the company is well positioned to compete for vanity authors, which is amply demonstrated by year after year of growth.

Now that I think about it, I suspect that my satisfied PA author acquaintance may be typical of thousands -- maybe many thousands. The discontented might be a small minority. Maybe a noisy minority, but small.

And no that is not an endorsement of PA. But it is a recognition that it effectively performs the role of vanity press, a role for which there is a large market.

--Ken

DaveKuzminski
10-26-2007, 07:27 AM
And no that is not an endorsement of PA. But it is a recognition that it effectively performs the role of vanity press, a role for which there is a large market.


If they were honest about the services they provide, most of the criticism would disappear. Since they haven't been honest and upfront, that only goes to demonstrate their moral content.

Afinerosesheis
10-26-2007, 07:27 AM
Well, it says a lot right there that he/she stays away from those boards. Much ugliness and unrest stems from that environment.
Many of its own authors help it along.

PA may please some people. They were never directly overly cruel to me, but overall they leave a lot to be desired.

ResearchGuy
10-26-2007, 07:39 AM
If they were honest about the services they provide, most of the criticism would disappear. Since they haven't been honest and upfront, that only goes to demonstrate their moral content.
To BE a vanity press requires deception. That is essential to the business. They are selling an illusion. No deception = no sales to those who seek the illusion. Then someone else -- someone who does deceive -- gets those clients.

(They are probably also making some sales to those who are buying convenience and are indifferent to the subtle costs, not buying an illusion, but that is a different discussion.)

--Ken

Komnena
10-26-2007, 07:44 AM
I think my head just exploded.


Jersey, can I borrow a lighter?

Stuffedtoy
10-26-2007, 09:30 PM
I don't know what happened to my previous thread...but I wanted to add to this misery. Some people who frequent this board may remember me from way back, as an advocate for PA. It wasn't so much the company I was protecting, as myself and the other poor authors who have fallen prey to this company.
http://www.ghostwriterreviews.com/forum/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1
Swinging the hammer at this company, is a good thing for those who haven't already signed on the dotted line, but trust me, just because an author has been sorrowfully published through PA does not make them a bad author, nor are all of the books poorly edited. (Sometimes the author puts in the extra work) PA's bad reputation is a growing thing, and you have to wonder why so many people are still overjoyed over the fact that they've been accepted. Truthfully, I cringe every time a PA book comes to us for review. (We are the GhostWriters) and there have been some poorly written ones. At the authors request we remove some of the reviews. Sometimes terrible editing can make a potentially good book- bad. I am banned from the private message board, for like the 100th time. Usually I don't post there, but I can't seem to get beyond the untruths and sometimes I can't control my tongue (or fingers in this case) My posts are removed, and I can't say anything else. Well that sure shuts me up. :rant:I have sent several authors elsewhere, as have some of those people, but with 2000 plus authors in their den, no one will ever reach them all. They're just too happy about getting published.
I also noticed back on one of the pages where my company is mentioned, that someone pointed out one of my titles (as belonging to Heavenly Trinkets tech). "Captive" is NOT a PA book. Would be nice if you're going to bash someone that you get the facts straight. :) I was published by PA back in 2004- since then I have traveled in a much different path. Even that book has been edited, and edited and edited, and I do have an agent.
Sooner or later the word will get out, but anyone who had had the displeasure of becoming a part of the PA family is going to take all this personally. It's guilt by association- which really isn't fair. My goal is to get people away from there. Just this morning someone emailed me concerning a review for their unpublished work. My first question... have you signed with PA? Trust me, if his answer is no, I will gently (or not) direct him somewhere else. One of the good things about offering services to authors, is that maybe we can help in a small way.
Oh, and I'm not a publisher. I do offer ebooks as I have that software, but we only take $1-2. depending on the price, and that's to cover paypal expenses. Money is good, but sometimes it goes deeper than that.

Tina
10-26-2007, 09:57 PM
...It should not really be a surprise or a mystery that a vanity press does successfully appeal to vanity. Nor should it be a surprise that those whose vanity is successfully tapped by a vanity press are oblivious to the nature of the transaction.

PA will only go out of business when human nature changes.

Given PA's uniquely low threshold of access (no advance fees, acceptance of pretty much anything) and facade of legitimacy sufficient to persuade those who are already highly susceptible by virtue of their own vanity (and perhaps neediness), the company is well positioned to compete for vanity authors, which is amply demonstrated by year after year of growth.

Now that I think about it, I suspect that my satisfied PA author acquaintance may be typical of thousands -- maybe many thousands. The discontented might be a small minority. Maybe a noisy minority, but small.

And no that is not an endorsement of PA. But it is a recognition that it effectively performs the role of vanity press, a role for which there is a large market.

--Ken

Precisely. I've long felt that without aspiring writers wanting an ego boost (and "fast-track" journey to authordom) PA couldn't exist.

Maybe a good part of the problem is that there are people all too ready and willing to be duped, because a legitimate career (check as many as apply):

1) is too time consuming
2) takes research
3) is too difficult
4) requires a lifelong commitment to reading quality books
5) requires a love of writing and an unyielding need to write even if you may never publish
6) rarely makes you wealthy

Marian Perera
10-26-2007, 10:07 PM
Maybe a good part of the problem is that there are people all too ready and willing to be duped, because a legitimate career (check as many as apply):

<snip>

3) is too difficult
4) requires a lifelong commitment to reading quality books
5) requires a love of writing and an unyielding need to write even if you may never publish

That reminds me of this story I once heard :

After a wonderful performance by a famous violinist, a member of the audience went up to him and said, "I would give my life to play like that!"

The violinist replied, "I did."

Caro
10-26-2007, 10:31 PM
Precisely. I've long felt that without aspiring writers wanting an ego boost (and "fast-track" journey to authordom) PA couldn't exist.

Sadly, you're right. I think of someone I worked with -- she was writing her "memoirs" (in which she forgave all the people whom she was convinced had wronged her) and was absolutely convinced Oprah would find her book a perfect selection. Naturally, the fame, fortune, and getting to lord it over others was only secondary. I gave her advice on submission, manuscript format and pointed out Oprah only chose books that had already been purchased by a publisher. That wasn't good enough for her; she chose a font she liked, had twenty-five copies printed and bound at Kinkos, and sent them on their merry way, including to Oprah. No, she didn't include return postage, but a couple of kind souls sent her postcards telling her they couldn't even look at it in this format. Her response was to rail against them and their narrow-mindedness for not seeing how brilliant her work was.

She was fired shortly after that (she had a number of problems), but I've sometimes wondered if she fell into the hands of Publish America. She was exactly the type of person who would fall for their come-on. If they did publish her, she'd be the type who'd try trick after trick to promote her book, always convinced the right one was just around the corner. The failure would be the fault of other people, not hers.

Saundra Julian
10-26-2007, 10:47 PM
How sad Caro....and yes, she would be one that PA could easily snare.

brianm
10-26-2007, 11:16 PM
PA authors have been promoting Ghostwriter Review in posts all over the PAMB. One wonders if these words from the site owner of Ghostwriter Reviews will have any affect on them.

http://www.ghostwriterreviews.com/forum/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1

Let us go back in time... when we were ecstatically overwhelmed with the idea of being published! PA seemed like a dream come true, and to try and tell someone they're among the poor souls who've been duped, is defeating. There are many problems with this company. For the most part, the editing is crummy. Sometimes I think they don't edit the books at all- the royalty payments run about the same as a traditional publisher- without the (good faith) advance, and the books are priced way too high. They have way too many authors, which takes away from the personal attention, and they make authors buy the books for signings, which limits the signings, if the author can even find a place to do this. Sometimes it takes a while, like after a couple of royalty checks, before the author starts feeling something’s wrong. There is little to no- advertising, and basically the author is on their own. I wish I could say it’s a good outlet to get your book published for free, but an author can go with Lulu and probably sell more books- for less, and they are also offered as ebooks. As for the forum… don’t dare say anything negative or promote something that’s not PA related or you will get banned! Take it from someone who’s hit that road a few times.

JulieB
10-26-2007, 11:58 PM
Ken and others: One thing I've always said is that PA may be the right choice for some people - but only as long as they go into the deal with their eyes wide open. Of course, I'd advocate this with any publisher. But if someone's done their homework and is convinced that PA is the place for their manuscript, then I don't have a beef with them.

Sometimes, though, I think some people spend more time researching a toaster than they do a publisher.

ResearchGuy
10-27-2007, 12:09 AM
Ken and others: One thing I've always said is that PA may be the right choice for some people - but only as long as they go into the deal with their eyes wide open. Of course, I'd advocate this with any publisher. But if someone's done their homework and is convinced that PA is the place for their manuscript, then I don't have a beef with them.
But here is the irony (as I see it, anyway): only by NOT understanding that a vanity press is a vanity press (PA or any other) does the vanity author gain the benefit of the illusion. It is essential to the transaction--to the illusion of legitimate publication--that the vanity author be deceived. The vanity author welcomes that deceipt, and without it from that company would search elsewhere for it.

Sometimes, though, I think some people spend more time researching a toaster than they do a publisher.
Well, a toaster can burn your house down. It happens. Vanity presses can only lead to mortgaging your house.

--Ken

Afinerosesheis
10-27-2007, 12:28 AM
Just about 48 hours ago my toaster threw the breaker and the whole kitchen went dark. NO LIE! Toaster went bye bye. In about six years I hope I can say the same for...

JulieB
10-27-2007, 01:48 AM
Well, a toaster can burn your house down. It happens. Vanity presses can only lead to mortgaging your house.


I dunno. I think Jersey may have something to say about that. ;-)

Jersey Chick
10-27-2007, 02:03 AM
Bwahahaha...

Most people read a synopsis a second or third time even after they've read a large portion of the narrative. The synopsis helps to view what you've already read in a different light. It is not merely there to give you a general idea of what the novel is about. I am quite sure that any experienced author and reader would agree.

The reason a writer makes so much effort to write a synopsis is that it should be read more than once. Even after someone completes a novel, he or she reads the synopsis another time before reading the novel for a second time.

The synopsis isn't merely a commercial introduction, but also the body of the novel itself, which readers can read and reread. Readers can read the synopsis a second time just like they can read the novel a second time. WTF is this? POW - there goes my head. Forget the Bic - this is far too gone already.

Does this make sense to anyone else??

I dunno - I write a synopsis only (and I do mean only - if there was another way, I'd SO be there) to get an editor/agent interested in reading the book. After I get that interest - throw the ^*&%@ synopsis out and read the manuscript. I make an effort on it to garner interest in the book. When was the last time anyone told you about the totally kickass synopsis they read over the weekend. :Headbang:

That's it - where is that [bleep] lighter??? **stomps out of office, slams door, trips over large box in hallway, falls down stairs and rolls into kitchen**

AHA!

brianm
10-27-2007, 02:42 AM
Clean up on aisle three, please. Clean up on aisle three near kitchen stairs.

Jersey Chick
10-27-2007, 04:48 AM
I think you mean Aisle Three, Four, and Five - it was a mega-blast! :D

ResearchGuy
10-27-2007, 05:14 AM
FYI:

The author of How to Write Your Book and Get it Published The Write Way, who has been discussed on this and/or other PA-related threads on AW, has signed up for an AW account and will be posting here when she can.

Some of what has been said about her on AW is wrong, and she and finds some of it "quite hurtful." As soon as she can log on, she will be "explaining the PA thing, as well as sharing a great escape."

I look forward to hearing from her on AW and hope that the good folks of Absolute Write Water Cooler will be considerate and receptive to what she has to say.

Thanks.

--Ken

James D. Macdonald
10-27-2007, 06:59 AM
PA is a reasonable place for you if:

a) 100% of what you want is two copies of your bound book and you don't care about the publishing rights, or,

b) You want to play Author! The Role-Playing Game.

For any other purpose it's useless. If you're just planning to use it to print up copies to sell from the back of the hall, it's an expensive printer and you've tied up the rights. If you're planning to find readers the old-fashioned way, you're less likely to get 'em with PA than with almost any other choice you could make. So ... that's my opinion.

jamiehall
10-27-2007, 09:20 AM
FYI:

The author of How to Write Your Book and Get it Published The Write Way, who has been discussed on this and/or other PA-related threads on AW, has signed up for an AW account and will be posting here when she can.

Some of what has been said about her on AW is wrong, and she and finds some of it "quite hurtful." As soon as she can log on, she will be "explaining the PA thing, as well as sharing a great escape."

I look forward to hearing from her on AW and hope that the good folks of Absolute Write Water Cooler will be considerate and receptive to what she has to say.

Thanks.

--Ken

I look forward to hearing what she has to say. If anything wrong has been said about her, she needs to correct us. I wish her well in her career.

JimmyD1318
10-27-2007, 10:31 AM
PA is a reasonable place for you if:

a) 100% of what you want is two copies of your bound book and you don't care about the publishing rights, or,

b) You want to play Author! The Role-Playing Game.

For any other purpose it's useless. If you're just planning to use it to print up copies to sell from the back of the hall, it's an expensive printer and you've tied up the rights. If you're planning to find readers the old-fashioned way, you're less likely to get 'em with PA than with almost any other choice you could make. So ... that's my opinion.


Have to say that I agree with Uncle Jim. If these are your two reasons, then PA isn't a bad choice.

Marian Perera
10-27-2007, 10:37 AM
PA is a reasonable place for you if:

a) 100% of what you want is two copies of your bound book and you don't care about the publishing rights

Even if that were all I wanted, I'd hesitate to go with PA because of their editing problems. I could send them a manuscript largely free of errors, but they'd probably introduce more mistakes in before printing up the books.

brianm
10-27-2007, 11:43 AM
Even if that were all I wanted, I'd hesitate to go with PA because of their editing problems. I could send them a manuscript largely free of errors, but they'd probably introduce more mistakes in before printing up the books.

And the books have a tendency to fall apart.

She will be greeted warmly. That goes without saying. But for the life of me, I can't think of any reason to use PA.

RG has been extremely vague, so I look forward to hearing her story and reasoning behind choosing PA.

Stuffedtoy
10-27-2007, 04:58 PM
I know... I know....(hand raised in the air) Or at least I can justify back 3 years ago. My husband (Bless his heart) thought with all the writing I did that I should try to get something published. So he went to the google search. Back then, there were no bad marks showing up on this company- which makes one wonder if people even bother to check things out before they surge into what could be a bad decision. When I began this venture, my research led me down a dead end, and I paid the price with both a bad publisher and an bad agent. I know better now, but unfortunately sometimes people have to learn the hard way. Maybe someone should take a poll... what made you choose PA as a publisher? First reply will most likely be that they were rejected (maybe many times) by the traditional publishing houses.- Oh I forgot, PA is a traditional publisher, or at least that's what they say on the message board. This was what got me banned. I honestly don't get all the euphoria I've read from some of the authors. (I have to wonder if they're staged) because I have been in contact with A LOT of unhappy PA authors. But there is one good thing... If you put your title in the Amazon, B&N, ect, search, the books are offered there, and you don't have to pay for it, well... not up front anyway.

Christine N.
10-27-2007, 05:04 PM
And it's all well and good to know what PA is and still go with them. I'd love to hear her reasons, because I just can't see how it makes good business sense, even if you're planning on doing all the selling yourself. I'd rather pay someone to format and upload the book to Lulu than deal with PA's terrible editing, terrible customer service, terrible discount and terrible reputation.

I'm sure she has her reasons, and I'd be happy to hear them. That came out wrong, sounds condescending. And I'm not really trying to be. I'd really like to understand her thought process, considering all she knows about publishing.

DaveKuzminski
10-27-2007, 10:03 PM
Actually, posted warnings about PublishAmerica have been on the Internet since before November 2000.

ResearchGuy
10-27-2007, 11:08 PM
. . . I'd rather pay someone to format and upload the book to Lulu than deal with PA's terrible editing, terrible customer service, terrible discount and terrible reputation. . . .
Curiously, one of my PA-author acquaintances paid for editing (and maybe formatting--don't know about that) and paid for uploading and other email correspondence in order to have PA publish the book.

Unfortunately, the editing, not to mention the writing, left much to be desired (none of the editing was done by PA, at the author's request; the book is tedious and error-laden), and no matter how well edited, the book would not have been commercially publishable (maximum potential sales not likely to exceed a couple hundred copies).

But be that as it may, the author in question has had no complaints about customer service, discount (or price) or reputation, and in fact is quite enthusiastic about the whole experience. However, apparently unknown to that author, those who tried to order the book from PA, paying by check, never received the books. (I have not heard that the checks were deposited. I imagine that PA simply discards orders paid by check as too much bother, but I cannot prove that.)

Here is a question for you: would you be willing to take on the task of editing and formatting a manuscript and managing it through the Lulu.com process--cover design and all--on behalf of a vanity author? (That is, an author whose manuscript has no chance of commercial publication.) Would you do it on a no-fee basis, simply in exchange for a portion of the net on copies actually sold? Do you know anyone who would do so? (I have made that offer in a couple of cases as a favor--an unprofitable and time-consuming favor at that--and have been turned down on the grounds that the deal was not good enough! I am coming to understand why subsidy publishers require hundreds or thousands of dollars in advance. It is either that or go broke.)

--Ken

ResearchGuy
10-27-2007, 11:14 PM
And the books have a tendency to fall apart. . . .
I have seen that claim before, but have never found any evidence in the PA books (Lightning-Source-printed books) I have seen. What, exactly, is the source of the claim that PA books printed by Lightning Source are of lower production quality (binding specifically) than other books (Lulu.com, for example, or directly, without intermediation by a subsidy publisher) printed by Lightning Source?

--Ken

JulieB
10-28-2007, 12:00 AM
I have one PA book where the cover is coming apart from the binding. Another AmErica House book I have is just shoddy all around. It was printed in Canada, however.

Christine N.
10-28-2007, 12:35 AM
Since I know how frustrating it could be to format and upload the book, since I've already done it, I would probably be willing to help someone. Depends on how long the book is. The only problem I have is getting the headers from Word to transfer to .pdf. But it's only one book, not hundreds. Editing...no, probably not. That's far more labor intensive.

So giving it to PA to edit is better? I don't think so. PA probably has an LS formatting template they use. Takes two minutes.

Cover art - I'm no good at that, but if I were I probably wouldn't mind. If it were a friend and the book really had no chance at publication. I'm a nice person that way.

I admit PA gives a little something - free formatting and cover art (quality not withstanding on either front). But what they take doesn't balance out.

ResearchGuy
10-28-2007, 02:51 AM
I have one PA book where the cover is coming apart from the binding. Another AmErica House book I have is just shoddy all around. It was printed in Canada, however.
I have an AmErica House book--2004, I believe--that does seem to be of meager quality. Not falling apart, but meager. Relatively flimsy cover stock and a tendency to curl. It does not help that the cover was utterly bland, basically block print on a solid-color, but that was not the printer's fault. I have not strained that one, as I have never been able to finish reading the first page, let alone turn the page. (I bought it as a courtesy to the author, at a signing.)

More recent ones I personally have seen (PA products, by way of Lightning Source) seem to be OK, including one that both my wife and I read with great pleasure. The author of that one, a real and accomplished writer, erred in signing with PA, but did not make a big deal of his displeasure when he realized the mistake. He simply moved on with his next book via a straightforward subsidy publisher, and with hand-selling (at half the cover price) the copies he had of his PA book.

--Ken

brianm
10-28-2007, 08:20 PM
I have seen that claim before, but have never found any evidence in the PA books (Lightning-Source-printed books) I have seen. What, exactly, is the source of the claim that PA books printed by Lightning Source are of lower production quality (binding specifically) than other books (Lulu.com, for example, or directly, without intermediation by a subsidy publisher) printed by Lightning Source?

--Ken

RG,

There have been numerous posts in the Nepat and in this thread quoting ex-PA authors and current members on the PAMB about problems with pages falling out of books, etc. Here’s one where the PAMB member talks about her book covers. This was originally posted on the PAMB on 9-29-07. The original thread was here.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/login.php?redirect=viewtopic.php&p=0&start=0&sid=f9336610e286679304853ec5210afa4d

However, that thread has been deleted or moved to the private boards. Here’s a link to the quote posted in this thread. (Post #6324)

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38537&page=253

Hi...I wonder if any of you has had this problem? My book cover (front and back) has a tendency to curl up. I have tried layering the books to flatten the covers but as soon as the book is exposed to air, the cover curls. I noticed one book store that displayed my book in their windown had to put an elastic band around the cover to hold it down. My two author copies were fine...no problem with curling covers...but the supply of books that I purchased all have this problem. It appears that there is a difference in the material used for the author copies and the subsequent copies that I ordered. I have written to Publish America twice about this problem but they have not addressed the issue. If any of you has had this problem and found a solution, I would like to hear from you.

I haven’t the time nor the desire to search Nepat or this thread for more quotes. Be my guest should you desire more proof.

Marian Perera
10-28-2007, 10:01 PM
Pipesmoker's thoughts on the speed of response of publishers. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24120)

A good rule of thumb is: the faster the acceptance and publication, the less exposure and readership you can expect.

I wonder if anyone at all will apply that standard to PA.

TwentyFour
10-29-2007, 01:10 AM
It doesn't matter to him, he believes he chose PA and therefore he knows much more than the average PA author.

ResearchGuy
10-29-2007, 04:34 AM
. . .I haven’t the time nor the desire to search Nepat or this thread for more quotes. Be my guest should you desire more proof.
Thanks for sharing that much. Very puzzling. I must ask a friend who has used Lightning Source whether LS offers different quality printing/binding at different prices. Or maybe the problem is that some PA print orders go to a different company with lower production quality and cheaper prices.

--Ken

TwentyFour
10-29-2007, 04:50 AM
I, too, have seen some flimsy PA covers. They were not AmErica House as far as I know.

Stuffedtoy
10-29-2007, 05:53 AM
I hadn't thought about the bending cover issue in some time, and I was under the assumption that in the US- Ingrams was the printer, at least it used to be, but I do have several books (not only PA's) that so have that problem.

jamiehall
10-29-2007, 05:55 AM
Thanks for sharing that much. Very puzzling. I must ask a friend who has used Lightning Source whether LS offers different quality printing/binding at different prices. Or maybe the problem is that some PA print orders go to a different company with lower production quality and cheaper prices.

--Ken

I've heard a number of stories about flimsy PA books, even before they got their own printer. I can't point out the information directly because I don't know exactly where I heard all these stories and I don't have the time or energy to track them down. But I'm pretty sure that most such mentions I've heard have been here or at other writing boards.

James D. Macdonald
10-29-2007, 06:22 AM
We know that PA routinely used at least one other printer (besides LSI).

Curling covers also depend on the amount of humidity where the book is stored.

brianm
10-29-2007, 06:31 AM
I wonder if the majority of PAMB members read something like this and shake their heads or do they honestly believe it?

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24001

dick is so right

if you want to be noticed
sell lots and lots of books

many famous authors got started out of the trunks of their cars
and they never needed a publisher

the more you sell
the more folks will seek you out
they will come to your door

Afinerosesheis
10-29-2007, 06:46 AM
I have had issues with PA/PAMB, but a falling apart book is not one of them. I have heard of no one saying my books fall apart or the covers curl. IMO, my book construction is just as good as other books in the industry. The price is another matter.

JulieB
10-29-2007, 08:20 AM
I wonder if the majority of PAMB members read something like this and shake their heads or do they honestly believe it?

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24001

My head just exploded. Again.

TwentyFour
10-29-2007, 08:57 AM
I've also seen some books that lost pages randomly without much wear and tear.

triceretops
10-29-2007, 09:16 AM
If you truly hope to be taken on by a legitimate agent you will have to have an excellent portfolio. Seminars and workshops are the best places to meet and persuade a legitimate agent that taking you on would be worthwhile financially.

Just when I think PS has some pretty good things to say, logically speaking, he makes a left turn.

An agent will take you on, first, for a great book. A portfolio is secondary.

I did not have to attend meet-and-greets or attend seminars to attrack and get an agent. You cannot persuade an agent. You can only impress an agent.

Tri

Christine N.
10-29-2007, 03:44 PM
See, he's still coming from a newspaper and magazine place. I can see the need for a 'clip file' if you were in those markets. Especially newspaper. Which could be called a portfolio, like an artist.

But not for novels. You can have a track record, or a resume, if you will, listing all your publications. PA doesn't count for any of 'em. Either they don't know who they are, or they do. If they don't know, they'll google or ask someone. Then they WILL know.

And Amazon Shorts don't count either.

JimmyD1318
10-29-2007, 04:57 PM
I think old Pipe Smoker knows exactly what PA is and what it isn't. But he likes playing the part of the 'Old Sage on the Mountain' for everybody. That's why he sticks around.

Jersey Chick
10-29-2007, 08:08 PM
many famous authors got started out of the trunks of their cars
and they never needed a publisher Can someone translate just what this means? They never needed a publisher?? Am I missing something here?

the more you sell
the more folks will seek you out
they will come to your door

To be honest, this is the last thing I want - to be stalked by avid readers. ;)
And just imagine the reaction, should someone go banging on Stephen King's door. (Of course, I'm really assuming he means figuratively, not literally :D)

TwentyFour
10-29-2007, 08:21 PM
Stephen King had a man break in and show his wife a bomb, she ran out screaming to the neighbors. I don't think he wants fans to stalk either. Kathy Bates is his biggest fan :)

Jersey Chick
10-29-2007, 09:44 PM
I would know better than to break into Stephen King's house - he probably makes the walls bleed and the family pets go berserk :D

Actually, I used to work with a guy who grew up with King - said he was a bit weird as a kid, and was shaving by the fourth grade. Huge surprise, eh?

PVish
10-30-2007, 07:33 AM
Uh-oh. The "slip a book onto a store rack" marketing (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24129) idea has resurfaced (bolding mine):

I dropped off a signed copy of [TITLE REDACTED] to the manager at the local Walgreens. He thanked me and said he would check it out.
I dropped one off at Martin's ( a local market ) and the manager gave it back to me and said to contact the district manager. Hell, I'd already signed it for the local one. I waited til he left and I put it on the front row of the best selling books. At least someone will look at it.
I spoke with a TARGET manager and he said he would check with the corporate office about stocking my book in the local Target store, seeing as how it's already on their web site.

And later he posts an update:
I just checked again and the book is still in front on the best sellers rack. Looks as if someone has thumbed through it. Probably can't figure why it doesn't have a price on it.

There are so many reasons why this idea won't work. Anybody wanna count 'em?

Marian Perera
10-30-2007, 07:41 AM
I don't get it. When I find books that I want to buy (which is nearly always after I know how much they cost), I take them over to the counter. The salesperson scans the book and tells me what to pay for it with tax. Even if a customer takes this priceless (pun intended) book to the counter, how is the salesperson supposed to know what the book costs? And the whole thing just seems slightly unethical to me - not likely to win the goodwill and support of the bookstore if they find out.

jamiehall
10-30-2007, 09:26 AM
Uh-oh. The "slip a book onto a store rack" marketing (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24129) idea has resurfaced (bolding mine):


When I used to hang out with vanity-published authors, I got told this strategy a lot. It never seemed like something even slightly feasible.
Lose more money with each sale!

emsuniverse
10-30-2007, 10:31 AM
the more you sell
the more folks will seek you out
they will come to your door
I hope that was meant to be a figurative example.

Whenever I sell my book, I don't want people to ring my doorbell an ask me to sign their book. All I would probably think about would be Kathy Bates and James Caan... It's a good movie, but still...

Jerz, need a lighter please.

emsuniverse
10-30-2007, 10:39 AM
Uh-oh. The "slip a book onto a store rack" marketing (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24129) idea has resurfaced (bolding mine):

That's unethical, plain and simple. It's like leaving your business card/bookmark in all the books in the library and the local bookstore that is similiar to your own book. All it does is annoy people.

Whenever a staff member goes to work on the books, he's going to find that book, take it to a computer, look it up, get very confused, then annoyed, then have to properly get rid of it. They would have looked it up through the distributor, only to find out that that particular book is not returnable (I looked). Then they are stuck with it, and I'm sure they wouldn't sell it - no price, no barcode, no sale. Bottom line.

Either way, the author has just wasted anywhere from $10-20 dollars, depending on the discount he got when he ordered that batch of books....

But hey, he didn't pay to have published.

Sheryl Nantus
10-30-2007, 05:19 PM
the problem is the majority of PA authors are so ignorant about the business of publishing that it's scary... and the mis/disinformation on the PAMB from those who should know better just helps the victims get deeper and deeper into the cesspool of debt.

I can't wait until PA offers their own credit card. Only 55% interest on the first $5000 spent on your own books!

Jersey Chick
10-30-2007, 05:53 PM
**hands em a blue Bic**

I read that about putting the book on the shelf anyway and thought "Um... and how do you expect to get paid for that? It won't be in inventory, doesn't have a price sticker, and do you really want to be remembered as the guy who snuck a book on the shelf?" That is, if the same manager finds it in the first place.

So many reasons why this is not a good idea...

It's a good thing I unpacked my box of Bics :D

brianm
10-30-2007, 06:07 PM
It's his local grocery store and everything in the store is inventoried. If someone did become interested in the book, it wouldn't scan. The cashier would bring it to the attention of the manager and he'd determine it wasn't one of their products.

He'd be annoyed at the man who placed an authorized product in his store and the people in line would be irritated because of the delay.

Book goes in the trash. Where it belongs.

What annoys me is the fact that the authors' books that are on the rack worked hard to get them there and their publishers spent a great deal of money to advertise and promote those books. Wonder how he'd feel if the positions were reversed and it was some vanity press published author's book covering up his best seller?

Just shows what PA published writers have to stoop to in order to get a copy of their 191 page, $19.95 softback on any kind of shelf.

JimmyD1318
10-30-2007, 06:22 PM
That's unethical, plain and simple.


I agree. I asked my co-manager at the Kroger store where I work about this. He said that if someone did this after he told the writer what the proper channels were to try to get the book stocked, he would throw the book in the trash. He also told me that you would be surprised how many people try this sort of thing to get their products out there.

Gravity
10-30-2007, 06:40 PM
Just shows what PA published writers have to stoop to in order to get a copy of their 191 page, $19.95 softback on any kind of shelf.

Sad, and just a bit horrifying. It's not so much a case of guerilla marketing as it is desperation trumping common sense.

JulieB
10-30-2007, 07:45 PM
In my deep, dark past I once managed a retail store. Occasionally someone would walk in with a product in hand, asking about placement on store shelves. I had no choice but to give them the contact info for the buyers at corporate. We were simply not allowed to sell anything that didn't come to us from the distribution warehouse. I could understand their position. Every product in the store is backed by the reputation of the chain. Not only that, but a customer expects that if their friend found Item A in store 42, then they can go to store 142 and find the same item - or at least have the manager order it if they're out of stock.

If someone had placed their product on the shelves and walked out, I would have treated it like any other lost item and placed it in the back room or underneath the counter until the owner showed up to claim it. I suppose the person with the product would have sent their friends in asking, and I'd have truthfully told them that we didn't stock such a product and there was nothing like that on our shelves. And if they brought the product up to the counter and asked to buy it, I wouldn't sell it. It's not in the system. I wouldn't have an official way to record the sale.

Even if I did have the leeway to stock extra items, I still wouldn't sell it without some sort of agreement in place with the producer of the item. And if they'd pulled the above stunts I'd be so ticked off at their underhanded tactics that I wouldn't want to deal with them.

This is why PA (and self-pubbed) authors have a better shot at local stores. I'm not knocking that at all. In fact, I've got some photography on display at a local coffee shop. Smaller businesses have more flexibility in terms of what they can put on the shelves.

emsuniverse
10-31-2007, 09:59 AM
I don't suppose that placing your book in a bookstore when the employees' backs are turned would be considered illegal, would it?

A replier to that thread said...

Those are some great ideas for promoting. I love that you left your book on the best sellers isle. that is an awesome idea.

Now everyone's going to do it.

PVish
10-31-2007, 04:44 PM
I don't suppose that placing your book in a bookstore when the employees' backs are turned would be considered illegal, would it?

A replier to that thread said...Those are some great ideas for promoting. I love that you left your book on the best sellers isle. that is an awesome idea.

Now everyone's going to do it.

Not everyone. Some will probably take a more conservative approach and just put their business cards or brochures inside the beside sellers. (Hey—it's better than putting them on the windshield of cars in the parking lot. You just know if someone picks up a bestseller they probably are readers, and if they find a note inside the best-seller recommending an even better book, they're going to ask the bookstore manager where that book is so they can immediately buy several copies, and the manager will rush to the phone to order a couple of dozen copies while setting up a reading for the author, etc., etc.)

Now, where is that box of Bics?

Afinerosesheis
10-31-2007, 04:47 PM
you're quite good! :tongue

xhouseboy
10-31-2007, 05:43 PM
I dropped one off at Martin's ( a local market ) and the manager gave it back to me and said to contact the district manager. Hell, I'd already signed it for the local one. I waited til he left and I put it on the front row of the best selling books. At least someone will look at it.


Ever dreamed of seeing your novel sitting alongside the works of the world's best selling authors.

Well, that dream can now become a reality. Just walk in to any bookstore and plonk it down there when the manager turns his back.

Then sit back and reap the .... (sorry, we'll have to get back to you on this one, seems our promo dept hasn't fully thought this out)

Jersey Chick
10-31-2007, 06:26 PM
**rips tape, pulls up box flaps, riffles through newspapers**
AHA!

Who needs a Bic? This is one of the biiiiig boxes, so there's plenty to go around!

:D

JimmyD1318
10-31-2007, 06:35 PM
**rips tape, pulls up box flaps, riffles through newspapers**
AHA!

Who needs a Bic? This is one of the biiiiig boxes, so there's plenty to go around!

:D


Pass one my way. I still think what this writer did was wrong! If I was the store manager and saw that book, I would call the writer up if he left his contact info and tell him it looks like he left his book at my store. Then I would tell him he has an hour to come get it or it's getting thrown out with the trash. Mean to do? Yes. But I just feel like the guy would have it coming his way.

BenPanced
10-31-2007, 06:37 PM
What's the opposite of shoplifting? Shopleaving?

Jersey Chick
10-31-2007, 07:17 PM
**tosses black Bic to Jimmy**

I imagine the writer has no idea how he might be remembered by that manager. Probably not quite what he had in mind, eh?

James D. Macdonald
10-31-2007, 07:36 PM
Hey, that's a way to make some money!

Offer it as a service: Attention PA writers! If you send me ten copies of your book and $100, I will place your book on the shelves of ten major bookstores!

brianm
10-31-2007, 08:08 PM
Understatement of the hour day week month year decade.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24184

We all know that PA is quite generous in accepting manuscripts in various forms.

Here are two of my favorites they accepted.

http://www.critters.org/sting/

http://www.crackofdeath.com/

Jersey Chick
10-31-2007, 08:15 PM
Attention writers!

Do you suffer from Golden Word Syndrome? Are you ready to admit you have a problem? If you think you might be suffering from this condition, but aren't sure, here is one indication that you have this condition:

1. Last saturday night, I stayed up until 2AM on a "Spillane Run," producing 10,870 words for my latest novel, xxxxxxxx xx xxxx. I went over it the next day and rewrote 3 sentences, but have found the majority of it to be of remarkable quality.

Yes - it is possible in a first draft to have well over 10,000 words that are of remarkable quality - but for most mere mortals, a first draft is hardly of this caliber. So, if you sit back and think your first draft is remarkable, you might, indeed, suffer from Golden Word syndrome. But fear not, help is available. However, admitting you have a problem is the first step in curing.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.


BTW- Happy Halloween! :D

Salem
10-31-2007, 08:38 PM
Yesterday I was in Borders and there was a display of books that were published by PA. I was surprised that a large retailer like Borders would allow that. The author even has a book signing scheduled there for this weekend. Is this typical?

Sheryl Nantus
10-31-2007, 08:49 PM
Yesterday I was in Borders and there was a display of books that were published by PA. I was surprised that a large retailer like Borders would allow that. The author even has a book signing scheduled there for this weekend. Is this typical?

of course not - the author has purchased the books him/herself and put them there on consignment or hoodwinked the manager into purchasing one or two copies.

any manager who orders PA books without checking their abysmal policies should be fired.

it's probably a local author who has hopes of selling to friends and family - after that, it's all downhill. Check the prices - they're not going to be competitive with other books in the same format and genre.

sad.

Afinerosesheis
10-31-2007, 09:17 PM
When my book came out one of the first things I learned about "marketing" was to leave my cards in other people's books. I thought it was all kind of cheesy and didn't do it. So that is a big thing over there, the little deceptive tricks to sell their books p*s people off. Most of them don't know any better.

ResearchGuy
10-31-2007, 09:26 PM
Ever dreamed of seeing your novel sitting alongside the works of the world's best selling authors.

Well, that dream can now become a reality. Just walk in to any bookstore and plonk it down there when the manager turns his back. . . .
It seems to me (probably influenced by recent reading in The Golden Bough) that the practice is an instance of sympathetic magic -- that is, of the attempt to bring a hoped-for outcome about through use of similarity (loosely interpreting the concept here). It is similar to the wearing of eagle feathers to give one the sharp vision of an eagle.

Now, if I am correct in that inference (amateur psychology/anthropology alert!!), then perhaps some are attempting to draw bestsellerdom by pasting the title of their book into the NYTimes bestseller list or wrapping a copy in a photo of Oprah. For that matter, any invocation of Oprah in connection with a book (other than those she really picks, of course) seems to be a sort of incantation, a resort to superstition akin to sympathetic magic.

My idiosyncratic views, FWIW.

--Ken

General Joy
10-31-2007, 09:29 PM
of course not - the author has purchased the books him/herself and put them there on consignment or hoodwinked the manager into purchasing one or two copies.

any manager who orders PA books without checking their abysmal policies should be fired.

it's probably a local author who has hopes of selling to friends and family - after that, it's all downhill. Check the prices - they're not going to be competitive with other books in the same format and genre.

sad.

That's not true--it is not completely out of the ordinary for stores like Borders or Barnes and Noble to have some books by PA authors, or to hold signings for PA authors. I've had signings at both of those chains, and they were not on consignment, and managers weren't "hoodwinked" into buying books. I simply asked, and they complied, no coaxing needed at all. Plenty of others have done the same.

ResearchGuy
10-31-2007, 09:40 PM
Yesterday I was in Borders and there was a display of books that were published by PA. I was surprised that a large retailer like Borders would allow that. The author even has a book signing scheduled there for this weekend. Is this typical?
It is rare, but not unique, judging from my local observations. A store can cater to local interests and personalities, at the manager's discretion and within whatever limits are imposed by corporate policy. The Borders store in Sacramento has shelves of local-author books (including some from PA) and hosts booksignings by occasional self-published authors (and occasionally by subsidy/vanity press authors). I know of a PA author (apparently a pretty good writer with a local following) who had a well-attended book signing at a major chain store in Roseville, near Sacramento, a couple of years ago. (I think that was at a Barnes & Noble store in an upscale shopping center.)

No, do not twist that into an endorsement of PA. It is simply a report of local observations. And of course I cannot say that the PA authors (or other POD authors) did not lose money on the deals. If they provided books on consignment, they probably did take a loss.

--Ken

Afinerosesheis
10-31-2007, 09:49 PM
I have never had any luck with bookstores around here. They just didn't return my calls. I live in a small rural area, so there is not a lot of outlets for me to use.

JimmyD1318
10-31-2007, 10:00 PM
**tosses black Bic to Jimmy**

I imagine the writer has no idea how he might be remembered by that manager. Probably not quite what he had in mind, eh?


(Grabs bic!) Thank you! How will this guy be remembered? Easy...as the guy who is sneaky and underhanded and can't/won't follow instructions. No other way to put it. (CLICK! CLICK! CLICK!) *POOF!* OWWWWW!

How do you do this Jersey? It hurts like hell!

Jersey Chick
10-31-2007, 10:31 PM
Ah... you get numb after a few minutes

brianm
11-01-2007, 01:12 AM
Yesterday I was in Borders and there was a display of books that were published by PA. I was surprised that a large retailer like Borders would allow that. The author even has a book signing scheduled there for this weekend. Is this typical?

Not unusual. Many PA authors get local book signings and a book or two placed in their local bookstore(s) because the majority of bookstores do promote and support local authors.

Go 25 miles away from the author's home and he/she will have a great deal more trouble getting another bookstore to carry a couple copies of the book and hold a book signing. Go further away or into another state and the chances that those bookstores will carry a copy or two drop down to zero.

Saundra Julian
11-01-2007, 02:25 AM
We actually did a signing at a B&N and afterwards they "bought" six copies of out book...no we didn't ask them to do this.

I checked with her a few months later and she said all the books had sold and how could she reorder. I told her the book was out of print as we had gotten our rights back. She asked me to let her know when it was re-published so she could stock it...

I think that's pretty cool BUT I would bet very unusual for a PA book. The damn thing was under-edited and overpriced to the point of embarrassment.

Since we've moved to Georgia, I've been asked to participate in some local author signings (I do have about 10 books left from our one and only purchase) I declined the invitation...not going to inflict that book on another unsuspecting reader.

As far as editing at PA...I'm sure we had some errors in the original manuscript, however, when the proofs were returned to us, there were 319 mistakes in it...yeah, I counted them! I know for a fact 99% of said errors were not in the work we sent them...how's that for helping an author get their book ready for publication?

Christine N.
11-01-2007, 03:00 AM
Jean Marie, IIRC, had a good deal of success with her PA book at a local bookstore. She send in the copies to the Border's small press dept. and got her book assigned a BINC (a Borders stocking number)

It was ONE bookstore.
SHE had to ALL the work. She put up the two copies of her book, SHE filled out the paperwork.

The return on her time? Not much.

Marian Perera
11-01-2007, 09:49 AM
It never stops (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24180)

I heard a strange idea at a meeting. The marketing guru suggested "creating" a publicist to help you set up your appointments and events. You introduce him or her with their fictitious persona and they sign all the news releases etc., even though it's really you. It gives the idea that you have a publicist. It feels a little dishonest to me, but then the whole sales thing is a new direction for my mind anyway!

Next up, creating a fake publisher. Oh wait, that's been done already.

Jersey Chick
11-01-2007, 04:51 PM
That reminds me of the person who poses as an agent in the hopes of getting one of the big boys who only take agented submissions - and yes, that thought did cross my mind once upon a time back when I was young and stupid. And no, I never actually did it. :D

PVish
11-01-2007, 05:29 PM
. . . The marketing guru suggested "creating" a publicist to help you set up your appointments and events. You introduce him or her with their fictitious persona and they sign all the news releases etc., even though it's really you. It gives the idea that you have a publicist.

When a group tries to contact your "publicist" to set up a reading for you, or to find out a bit of information about you, what then? If they didn't notice that the "publicist" has the same address and phone number as you, they might Google. A publicist that doesn't exist on the Internet=a publicist who can't even publicize herself. Somebody will surely notice.

A fake publicist promoting a book from a fake publisher. What's next? Adding some fake credentials to make the author more plausible? How about fake quotes from a whole slew of fake book reports? Publicizing fake appearances in another city?

The mind boggles.

xhouseboy
11-01-2007, 06:40 PM
Pavel once created what I assume was a fake spokesman to jump in on his behalf when his cancer book was getting slated.

Either that or they both went to the same school where they Were taught The same Writing style Of capitalising Every second Word.

Christine N.
11-01-2007, 07:16 PM
Yeah, but I wonder if Pavel's first language wasn't German. Because I learned (while subbing for a classroom aid in a German class) that ALL nouns in German are capitalized. Wonder if the same is true of all Slavic languages? If he was Polish, do they capitalize all nouns?

DamaNegra
11-01-2007, 07:41 PM
No. Polish doesn't capitalize all nouns.

JulieB
11-01-2007, 07:58 PM
I've seen self-pubbed authors use a friend as a publicist. Still if you don't know how to do PR, you shouldn't be doing it. Our concom got a packet from a self-pubbed author's "publicist." It was one of the most GA things I'd ever seen. In addition, the author was asking for things we can barely afford to provide for our top guests.

I'm guessing this author was told that there was no harm in asking in the off-chance that you might get it, but it was fairly obvious that this author had no clue about how conventions are run.

A good PR person will do their research first. Just sayin'.

Sheryl Nantus
11-01-2007, 08:00 PM
the problem is that you can only fake your way so far.

considering the majority of PA authors have no idea of how the publishing world works, I doubt their friends and family can pull off the scam of pretending to be a publicist beyond making a call and hoping no one asks anything too difficult.

and how immoral is it to not only deceive the bookstore owner but also pull in someone along the way?

*shakes head*

JulieB
11-01-2007, 09:53 PM
Anyone can be a publicist - just like anyone can be a writer. *cough*

An inexperienced, untrained publicist can do more harm than good. Back when I was a radio news director I was inundated with with stuff I couldn't use. It's only become worse since then because anyone can blast out a press release with a click of a mouse button.

A proper publicist cultivates contacts and sends out targeted publicity. It takes time and costs more, but gets better results.

Sparhawk
11-01-2007, 10:04 PM
That's not true--it is not completely out of the ordinary for stores like Borders or Barnes and Noble to have some books by PA authors, or to hold signings for PA authors. I've had signings at both of those chains, and they were not on consignment, and managers weren't "hoodwinked" into buying books. I simply asked, and they complied, no coaxing needed at all. Plenty of others have done the same.

THis worked for me in Framingham and Bellingham because I was local. However when I tired the same approach in Connecticut the resuts were very different and I was dismissed outright. The manager in Enfield had already heard of PA and wanted nothing to do with me or my book.

I have to respectfully disagree here, After talking to Barnes and Noble Corporate in New York,(See post in old NEPAT @March 2005) they're aware of PA and their practices and have very little to do with them save for some local events. When a PA book gets carried chainwide by one of the larger stores then I'll start beleiving the PAvidian mantra. But that will NEVER happen. PA doesn't want their books chain wide in a bookstore; they couldn't handle the orders and couldn't figure out how to pay the royalty. Can anybody name one PA book out of the so called 20,000 Happy Authors that have achieved the following?

1. Sold more than 5,000 copies... NO SELF PURCHASES
2. Carried regionally by a B&M bookstore
3. Carried Nationwide by same
4. Made a NYT best seller
5. Placed in the top 500 for book sales in any year of operation (Again weed out self purchases)

6. Generated more than $2,000.00 in royalites over the seven year duration of contract.

Bookstores are not part of PA's business paradigm to them (PA) Authors going into book stores and holding events is simply part of 'AUTHOR: The RPG'.

PA Authors buying their own books and selling to friends and family is the PA business plan (Or to hairdressers, Optometrist's offices et al. And yes these are from actual suggestions from the PA boards over the past two years.) They,PA, aren't set up to do anything else but handle the small 75 and under purchases from the inhabitants of their own message boards during one of their "Promotional Tiger" specials.

In direct comparison to legitimate Publishing Houses PA is severely lacking in all facets. Is there one PA author out of the 20,000 that PA has actually promoted actively? Is there not one book (besides Willem's trash) that Publish America beleives in enough to promote? Not a single book from a single Happy Author? What does this say about them? It says even THEY DON'T BELEIVE IN THEIR AUTHORS.

Can one PA author step forward and say "Publish America promoted my book just like a real publisher would do." Is there not one PAvidian that can step forward and share a PA marketing strategy submitted to them by PA designed to help him/her go forward and achieve success beyond buying your own books and selling on consignment?? Do PA Authors REALLY beleive this is what a legitimate publisher considers marketing and promotion?

Hey, I know from experience and I have the E-mails to prove what happens to PA authors when they try to actively achieve market penetration... it aint pretty and usually ends in PA trying to call the cops to silence you.

PA is to publishing like Matchbox is to NASCAR.

And I beleive that PA authors deseve better. There are some very talented writeres that will never be read beyond a small circle because of Publish America, and that's truly ashame.

My vent for the day is done... back to work.

brianm
11-01-2007, 11:10 PM
But it was such a good vent. And accurate.

PVish
11-02-2007, 01:25 AM
Anyone can be a publicist - just like anyone can be a writer. *cough*

You forgot book reviewer. If you can write a book, surely you can read a book (or at least its cover blurbs) and write a review. Then you can post the review all over the Internet and on amazon.com, where lots of real books have real reviews!

Just like you can post all those publicity releases on prweb.com! Just think how much credibility that will give you!

*cough, ack, gasp*

JulieB
11-02-2007, 03:00 AM
You forgot book reviewer. If you can write a book, surely you can read a book (or at least its cover blurbs) and write a review. Then you can post the review all over the Internet and on amazon.com, where lots of real books have real reviews!

Just like you can post all those publicity releases on prweb.com! Just think how much credibility that will give you!

*cough, ack, gasp*

Of course! How could I be such an idiot?

JimmyD1318
11-02-2007, 05:21 AM
But it was such a good vent. And accurate.

Yep! Straight to the point!

PVish
11-02-2007, 07:28 AM
If someone says anything about publicist/publicity/publicize over on the PAMB, you just know this (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24193) is gonna pop up.

allenparker
11-02-2007, 06:18 PM
If someone says anything about publicist/publicity/publicize over on the PAMB, you just know this (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24193) is gonna pop up.

Anyone know how many copies of that book has been sold? It would be interesting to know if the process she uses works for her book...

JimmyD1318
11-02-2007, 06:46 PM
Anyone know how many copies of that book has been sold? It would be interesting to know if the process she uses works for her book...


I would like to know how many of their PA book has sold this year. Just to see if all of this hoopla they keep spouting would even be worth the seven bucks.

Jersey Chick
11-02-2007, 08:41 PM
I'd like a peek at that info as well - and I'm still waiting to see if it shows up in the PR thread...

James D. Macdonald
11-03-2007, 01:26 AM
Anyone know how many copies of that book has been sold? It would be interesting to know if the process she uses works for her book...


It's an e-book. Sales figures aren't available.

TwentyFour
11-03-2007, 02:13 AM
I believe they meant her "PA" book, not the ebook.

Marian Perera
11-03-2007, 04:23 AM
From the back cover of a PA book (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24026)

This publication will provide many hours of pleasant reading that will have you gagging for more from the same source.

I'm at a loss for words, though the poor author seems to be unaware that there's anything wrong with this. And I'm willing to bet that not one person on that board will disillusion him.

Afinerosesheis
11-03-2007, 04:48 AM
gagging? Oh my goodness!

jamiehall
11-03-2007, 04:56 AM
From the back cover of a PA book (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24026)


This publication will provide many hours of pleasant reading that will have you gagging for more from the same source.



I'm at a loss for words, though the poor author seems to be unaware that there's anything wrong with this. And I'm willing to bet that not one person on that board will disillusion him.

I would almost expect it to be a sting manuscript, except that I've seen examples of PA not catching (or inserting) far worse errors. But, if you had a sting manuscript, wouldn't you just love to have "will have you gagging for more" on the back cover?

Jersey Chick
11-03-2007, 04:59 AM
"gagging for more"

Oh dear.

That's it - I'm at a loss here. Time to pack up and go home.

ebrillblaiddes
11-03-2007, 05:06 AM
Wow. Made of awesome.

Afinerosesheis
11-03-2007, 05:08 AM
These two authors seem pretty popular with the PA crowd. I remember when I signed on the female one talked about all her signings and successes. I believe(d) that if anyone at PA were going to make it big, she might. I'm sure she's sold a lot more than me but probably spending oodles in marketing.

Is gagging supposed to be begging?

Beats me.

JimmyD1318
11-03-2007, 05:33 AM
These two authors seem pretty popular with the PA crowd. I remember when I signed on the female one talked about all her signings and successes. I believe(d) that if anyone at PA were going to make it big, she might. I'm sure she's sold a lot more than me but probably spending oodles in marketing.

Is gagging supposed to be begging?

Beats me.
She is from my hometown of Memphis, Tn. I never had a chance to go one of her signings, and I don't know if she provided the books for them. But it wouldn't surprise me if she did. 'Gagging for more...'? Ummmm...yeah. I'm with Jersey on this one. Time to go home and take a hot bath...! My head hurts.

BenPanced
11-03-2007, 06:27 AM
I know the British use "gagging" as slang for "begging"; I've heard the phrase "gagging for a shag" in an episode of the sitcom Coupling.

But the credit for the writing school. "Attended"? Oh, my...

Afinerosesheis
11-03-2007, 06:33 AM
When I think of gagging, I think of getting the puke pan right now! =)

Jersey Chick
11-03-2007, 08:48 AM
I'm gagging for more of this silliness :D

Just kidding. I'm sleepy. Very sleepy.


**thud - head hits keyboard... only sound heard was...

ZZZZzzzzzz**

brianm
11-03-2007, 12:18 PM
This publication will provide many hours of pleasant reading that will have you gagging for more from the same source.

It's from Porn Guy's book, right?

JimmyD1318
11-03-2007, 05:59 PM
It's from Porn Guy's book, right?


brianm...that was really sick and twisted! Once again...bravo!:Thumbs: I knew me and Jersey have been a good influence on you!

Jersey Chick
11-03-2007, 06:59 PM
It's from Porn Guy's book, right?


:ROFL:

Y'know, just once I'd like to be a good influence instead of leading people down the road to hell. ;)

Afinerosesheis
11-03-2007, 09:50 PM
According to some, you all here at AW have led me straight down the path to the mighty furnace...

I have enjoyed it =)

Rolling Thunder
11-03-2007, 09:53 PM
According to some, you all here at AW have led me straight down the path to the mighty furnace...

I have enjoyed it =)

At least you'll be warm this winter.

As far as the current conversation: I think the word 'gagging' was made as a reference to the genre of the book. Still, it was a weak word to use and isn't doing its work.

Afinerosesheis
11-03-2007, 10:27 PM
Gagging, to me, doesn't associate with horror.

I like the warmth here in more ways that one =)

Jersey Chick
11-04-2007, 12:38 AM
Oh, look... marshmallows!

Anyone want one? I've got plenty :D

Duncan J Macdonald
11-04-2007, 06:25 AM
:ROFL:

Y'know, just once I'd like to be a good influence instead of leading people down the road to hell. ;)
It's the lighters.

Jersey Chick
11-04-2007, 09:40 PM
Nah... that can't possibly be it!

can it?

**scoops up all lighters and holds 'em close**

I'll never give 'em up. Never! :D

PVish
11-05-2007, 05:21 AM
On the PAMB (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24049), authors discuss signing up with the Google Partner Program (http://books.google.com/intl/en-US/googlebooks/book_search_tour/index.html) to promote their books.
Does PA allow this? One person checked:
I checked with PA about google, and this was their reply.
Thank you for your interest in the marketing and promotion of your
book. We review many different options for our books. As the rights holder to your title, we do not participate in this program due to copyright concerns.

PA holds the rights for the title? Do they mean copyright? Don't PA authors have to take out the copyright in their own names and on their own $45?

Translation: We don't want to bother with having to fulfill one or two orders at a time when it is so much more efficient for us when you buy in bulk yourself, especially since we we don't have to pay a royalty for books you buy yourself. Also, if we let people read parts of your book before they buy, they might notice a lack of editing and think we're not a "traditional" publisher.

Marian Perera
11-05-2007, 05:52 AM
This is really sad. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24034)

My book was released Nov1 and I'm waiting on my author copies. Anyone know how long it usually takes? I want to check them over before ordering in bulk. My first order will be 100, I've been saving for 8 months to be able to order this many.

Eight months of saving for books which will earn her no royalties. I just hope she makes a profit from the sales.

emsuniverse
11-05-2007, 05:52 AM
I'm surprised Infocenter didn't respond to the many Google partner posts, stating it wasn't allowed. I've read many on here have signed up for this program and never once was it stated we couldn't.

Bingo.

Jersey Chick
11-05-2007, 06:29 PM
Oy. PA leaves the marketing entirely up to the author, and then shoots down an attempt at marketing. I'm sure in some parallel universe that makes total sense. But my mind is boggling in this one.

Afinerosesheis
11-05-2007, 09:14 PM
This is really sad. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24034)



Eight months of saving for books which will earn her no royalties. I just hope she makes a profit from the sales.

She'll make a proft, no doubt, if she sells them close to retail price. That is, if she doesn't spend out a ton in marketing...gas, lollipop trees, tablecloths, etc etc. She'll make a nice profit this way, better than royalties, but still she shouldn't have to do this work herself. =(

ResearchGuy
11-05-2007, 09:17 PM
. . . PA holds the rights for the title? Do they mean copyright? Don't PA authors have to take out the copyright in their own names and on their own $45? . . .
The contract gives PA the PUBLISHING rights, it does not assign copyright to PA.

The authors are only registering the copyright. The copyright belongs to them as soon as the work takes tangible form (see "Copyright Basics" at www.copyright.gov (http://www.copyright.gov) ), with or without subsequent registration. But registration enables the author to sue for violation of the copyright.

If an author has contracted away publishing rights, the author is in violation of contract if he or she undertakes or authorizes some other publishing arrangement, regardless of owning the copyright.

--Ken

Tina
11-05-2007, 11:43 PM
This is really sad. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24034)



Eight months of saving for books which will earn her no royalties. I just hope she makes a profit from the sales.

Eight months of saving to buy the book she wrote herself.

It's a little like saving up to buy the car you built yourself.

JimmyD1318
11-06-2007, 01:51 AM
Eight months of saving to buy the book she wrote herself.

It's a little like saving up to buy the car you built yourself.

But remember! They did not pay to be published! Yeah right!

emsuniverse
11-06-2007, 01:53 AM
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24045

Bolding is mine.

My third Christian novel that's in the works, Silent Ride, has a deaf character as the main character. The Christian organization where I work distributes material for deaf people.

I talked to my boss today, and he'd love to sell my book from here! It's not B&N, but it will be really neat because I'm actually the one who sees all the sales that go through here. So...I'll get to see some actual progress once my book is released. And then the profit made off the book goes back to the mission, so it's really a cool opportunity!

Rolling Thunder
11-06-2007, 03:52 AM
It's nice to have you here, Gloria. :) Welcome to AW!

CatSlave
11-06-2007, 03:55 AM
Welcome aboard, Gloria, and congratulations! :welcome:

triceretops
11-06-2007, 04:16 AM
Wonderful to have you here, Gloria. Congrats on saving your book!

Tri

emsuniverse
11-06-2007, 04:19 AM
Hey, Gloria! Welcome to AW. I'm glad you got out of the contract!

JulieB
11-06-2007, 04:34 AM
Welcome, Gloria. And thanks for sharing your story.

Marian Perera
11-06-2007, 04:38 AM
The good that came from this is that I can help steer other authors away from PA.

That is a great good, as far as I'm concerned.

Glad you got out of your contract!

ResearchGuy
11-06-2007, 04:40 AM
. . . I'm glad to be here.

Gloria
Hello, Gloria! It is great to see you here! I look forward to what you have to say on any and all topics.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

--Ken

Jersey Chick
11-06-2007, 04:41 AM
Congratulations on getting free and :welcome: :D

TwentyFour
11-06-2007, 04:42 AM
Gloria, please read my thread "Welcome to AW"!

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55213

Afinerosesheis
11-06-2007, 06:46 AM
Hi Gloria. I am a PA author. I don't like some things PA does. When I first came to AW I faced a little negativity, but most people here are very kind and caring toward PA and all authors. Don't let things get you down. I've had troubles with message boards (banned from PA, too ;)) and this is by far the best board I have found, with the best people. Many of them really do care.

Welcome! :)

JimmyD1318
11-06-2007, 07:09 AM
Hello Gloria!

Welcome to AW. Glad to hear you got out of your contract and are free of PA's claws. And thank you for telling about what happened as to why you went with PA. They really do try to pass themselves off as a real publisher, in fact I nearly signed their contract. But luckily, I found out about this place and learned the truth. Here you go...have some POPCORN from my secret stash!

:popcorn::popcorn:

Hope you like it and I hope you like it here.

IceCreamEmpress
11-06-2007, 07:36 AM
She'll make a proft, no doubt, if she sells them close to retail price. That is, if she doesn't spend out a ton in marketing...gas, lollipop trees, tablecloths, etc etc. She'll make a nice profit this way, better than royalties

But less than she would have by actually self-publishing. Which is sad. She probably would have been able to get much nicer product at a cheaper price if she went with a straightforward POD house or worked with a local digital printer.

Mel
11-06-2007, 08:15 AM
Welcome to AW, Gloria. :hi:

Glad to hear you got out of the contract! AW really is a great place. There's lots to read all over the place about writing, publishing, having fun, all kinds of goodies here.

Joanna_S
11-06-2007, 09:13 AM
The next post by JoannaS says 'the same woman who wrote that also wrote ... ' Joanna, you got it wrong. I didn't write that first post; I know how to spell 'plagiarize.'

If so then I apologize sincerely. I tried to check the original thread but it's long since been removed from the PAMB. I do remember going to your website and seeing all of your publsihed books, some of which were published by the same company that does the US version of some of my books (Sterling). I now understand how you ended up with PA and am very happy to hear that you saw the light so quickly and were able to get out of your contract. Welcome to AW!

-- Joanna

allenparker
11-06-2007, 06:46 PM
Welcome and congratulations on your release. Please take a moment to get settled, then look around. This place is wonderful!

A person like you has much to offer us as well. I hope you will begin to feel like you are among family here.

brianm
11-06-2007, 07:19 PM
Welcome and congrats on getting your contract cancelled. :hooray:

Party, hot tub? Were there libations? Why am I the last to learn of such happenings?

*stomps from room in search of Jerz and Cat to see if they got invites*

Jersey Chick
11-06-2007, 07:31 PM
Welcome and congrats on getting your contract cancelled. :hooray:

Party, hot tub? Were there libations? Why am I the last to learn of such happenings?

*stomps from room in search of Jerz and Cat to see if they got invites*


Who do you think arranged it? ;)

emsuniverse
11-06-2007, 07:50 PM
When to promote?

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24281

Would you promote your next work if you have not signed a contract with a publisher yet?

I'm going to be a vendor at a craft faire, selling (book name redacted...)

I have my second story, childrens genre, sent into the Library of Congress, I have my illustrations for the covers and I have my synopsis complete. I was considering a "Coming Soon" Poster and taking note of emails for those who are interested in it.

First reply:

...if you feel confident that it will be published, either by a publisher, or self-published then it would be okay. But if there's a chance the book will take a while to come out, I would hold off on promoting. Good luck.

I'm confused. Has this lady already submitted book #2 for publication? For PA or other?

Sheryl Nantus
11-06-2007, 08:20 PM
When to promote?

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24281

I'm confused. Has this lady already submitted book #2 for publication? For PA or other?

I think this victim is following the misinformation on the PAMB - she's sent in her finished work to the LoC and paid for the copyright BEFORE she actually began to submit anywhere. It's the idea that somehow it's going to be stolen before it gets published, so she's registered the copyright up front.

Of course it's pretty useless if she ever changes the story and most publishers won't take her seriously now that she's gone and done that, which is the sad part. Again, more bad info from other PA victims and no one's telling them different for fear of being run over by the PA faithful.

Saundra Julian
11-06-2007, 09:02 PM
I'm a little late but want to add my welcome and congratulations to you, Gloria!
You'll find a world of information on AW and some great people here. We're proud to have you,
Saundra

emsuniverse
11-07-2007, 04:47 AM
You know the thread about the guy who put his book in the bestsellers aisle, then walked away?

Someone commented. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24129) Bolding mine.

Good idea...that's one way to get on the best sellers list Rick, I think I'll try it! Does anyone know how to get your book into a book store? I live in a small town and our local book store is "Book World" they have been trying to order my book through Baker & Taylor and are told that there "is no information about it" after going back and forth with Baker & Taylor and P.A. I finally found out that the manager at Book World won't even stock it unless she gets a 40% discount. I called P.A. and they said that they offer their distributors a 40% discount....so I know that no book store is going to get that from the distributors. I was in Florida recently, and checked in at a big bookstore there, they said that they wouldn't be stocking it because Ingram is only giving them a 5% discount! Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that my book will probably NEVER be available in a store (unless I do what Rick did, which is sounding more tempting every minute.) Does anyone out there know some trick to this? I'm going to check with walmart tomorrow and a couple of our little local stores. http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif

So basically she's blaming the distributors. It's not PA's fault for having a 5% discount, it's the distributors' fault for taking the book at 40% from PA and then turning around and selling it to stores for a mere 5%. The mis-information here just astounds me.

Jersey Chick
11-07-2007, 05:31 AM
:Headbang:

I need a lighter. Like NOW! :D

Marian Perera
11-07-2007, 05:34 AM
Oh man. This is going to be a great thread.

WHAT WAS THE CRAZIEST THING YOU HAVE EVER ACTUALLY DONE ,OR TRIED , TO SELL YOUR BOOKS ? (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24291)

i put signs along the highway with my website on them

Don't you need any kind of permit to advertise along the highway?

I left business cards on the shelves in front of the urinals at BWI Airport prior to a book signing. Had one guy come by and buy a book, he got a big kick out it.

Business cards at the urinals. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that image.

Jersey Chick
11-07-2007, 05:35 AM
Imagine how many guys now have really good aim ;)

Marian Perera
11-07-2007, 05:38 AM
I was just thinking, I wouldn't want to pick up one of those cards unless I had a Baggie handy.

Christine N.
11-07-2007, 05:38 AM
Yeah, a 40% discount, what a rip-off! How can anyone make a profit with that kind of discount! It's a scam, I say!

Oh, wait, no, that's what EVERY OTHER PUBLISHER gives to EVERY STORE. And all the books are RETURNABLE too! Amazing!

JulieB
11-07-2007, 05:44 AM
Business cards at the urinals. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that image.

How about business cards at the diaper changing station? Seen that.

The thing with both of these ideas is that there are companies that sell ad space in restrooms. So -- why not get in for free? No, I'm not advocating. I think it's a terrible idea.

I'm just waiting to see this scrawled on the stall wall: FOR A GOOD READ TO GO WWW.YOURBOOKTITLEHERE.COM.

Jersey Chick
11-07-2007, 05:52 AM
I was just thinking, I wouldn't want to pick up one of those cards unless I had a Baggie handy.

There ain't a Baggie in the world thick enough... :D

xhouseboy
11-07-2007, 06:19 AM
Business cards at the urinals. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that image.

That's not so unusual. I've seen a few health & fitness gurus advertise their services on the walls above the urinals. And an advert for an over priced paperback wouldn't look too out of place, because what some of these masseurs were quoting for an all-over body rub also seemed a bit steep to me.

Afinerosesheis
11-07-2007, 06:31 AM
You know the thread about the guy who put his book in the bestsellers aisle, then walked away?

Someone commented. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24129) Bolding mine.



So basically she's blaming the distributors. It's not PA's fault for having a 5% discount, it's the distributors' fault for taking the book at 40% from PA and then turning around and selling it to stores for a mere 5%. The mis-information here just astounds me.

This is such a sad lesson and a difficult one to learn. This is when the truth hits many right square between the eyes.

brianm
11-07-2007, 06:49 AM
Business cards at the urinals. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that image.

This reminds me of a gift I received on my 40th birthday that was called, "Targets." The box contained 12 targets that you were meant to drop into the toilet one at a time. The instructions indicated that 4-6 men could play the game and that they were to take turns "hitting" the targets. Depending upon how the target was hit determined which way the "water" splashed. The idea was to spray the other players. I never got far enough in the instructions to determine how one became the winner of the game because I just couldn't see this game ever being played in my home.

Six men around a toilet aiming at the same tiny little round target? Yeah, right.

Just thought I'd share... :D

JimmyD1318
11-07-2007, 07:04 AM
This reminds me of a gift I received on my 40th birthday that was called, "Targets." The box contained 12 targets that you were meant to drop into the toilet one at a time. The instructions indicated that 4-6 men could play the game and that they were to take turns "hitting" the targets. Depending upon how the target was hit determined which way the "water" splashed. The idea was to spray the other players. I never got far enough in the instructions to determine how one became the winner of the game because I just couldn't see this game ever being played in my home.

Six men around a toilet aiming at the same tiny little round target? Yeah, right.

Just thought I'd share... :D

YUCK!


I could have done without that image! Once again...bravo!

BenPanced
11-07-2007, 07:30 AM
You know the thread about the guy who put his book in the bestsellers aisle, then walked away?

Someone commented. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24129) Bolding mine.



So basically she's blaming the distributors. It's not PA's fault for having a 5% discount, it's the distributors' fault for taking the book at 40% from PA and then turning around and selling it to stores for a mere 5%. The mis-information here just astounds me.

Yeah, a 40% discount, what a rip-off! How can anyone make a profit with that kind of discount! It's a scam, I say!

Oh, wait, no, that's what EVERY OTHER PUBLISHER gives to EVERY STORE. And all the books are RETURNABLE too! Amazing!

Hey, it's all just part of the Grand Conspiracy for the "big name publishers" to keep the little guy down and prevent great books from getting published and and and...Jersey Chick, y'all gonna hog all them lighters or what?

Jersey Chick
11-07-2007, 08:23 AM
This reminds me of a gift I received on my 40th birthday that was called, "Targets." The box contained 12 targets that you were meant to drop into the toilet one at a time. The instructions indicated that 4-6 men could play the game and that they were to take turns "hitting" the targets. Depending upon how the target was hit determined which way the "water" splashed. The idea was to spray the other players. I never got far enough in the instructions to determine how one became the winner of the game because I just couldn't see this game ever being played in my home.

Six men around a toilet aiming at the same tiny little round target? Yeah, right.

Just thought I'd share... :D

Um... ick... Of course, I suppose it could promote some sort of weird bonding thing, but it kind of makes my skin crawl right off me bones... argh...

They do make something similiar (for some reason, I can't spell that word tonight. Must be the blonde- anyhoo) for potty training. I'm thinking of getting them for my son. Should be an adventure.

Oh, and here **rummages through desk drawer, digs out green Bic, tosses to BenPanced**

CATCH! :D

emsuniverse
11-07-2007, 10:08 AM
I see ads on the inside of bathroom stalls in the ladies' room all the time - from everything from car insurance to "are you or someone you know being abused, if so, go to the police" type things. I have never seen a book advertised in that slot. Ever. Ever.

And at urinals? Gloria may be right about the subconcious thing...

triceretops
11-07-2007, 10:39 AM
Wolf -- In spite of books being print on demand - they do print in groups. It is too impractical to print only ONE at a time. I would say they probably do 25 at a time as a minimum. When they get down to one or two left, they will do another group - same numbers or if the book has been selling - a double run. When one considers that the books are what is called perfect bind, the equipment used has to be "set" for the physical size of the book. Covers are probably in a larger stock as they too require a certain amount of time to create and print (let alone proper drying time).

Now, seriously, I've not heard of this. Pod runs?

Tri

LeslieB
11-07-2007, 04:43 PM
I see ads on the inside of bathroom stalls in the ladies' room all the time - from everything from car insurance to "are you or someone you know being abused, if so, go to the police" type things. I have never seen a book advertised in that slot. Ever. Ever.

And at urinals? Gloria may be right about the subconcious thing...

I have too. And let's face it, passing out business cards wherever you go is not limited to book writers. On Halloween, my daughter was sitting on our porch giving out candy to the trick or treaters. When I checked to see how she was doing, she told me, "Mom, a lady said to give you this," and handed me a business card for Mary Kay Cosmetics.

emsuniverse
11-07-2007, 06:47 PM
On election years, I've seen people drop in pencils with "Vote for XXXXX" in kids' candy bags. Same goes to handing business cards (or even doorhangers) to the parents of the kids trick or treating.

ResearchGuy
11-07-2007, 07:17 PM
. . . Now, seriously, I've not heard of this. Pod runs?

Tri
Dunno about the stuff you had in bold, but there is nothing strange or unheard-of about using a POD printer as an ultra-short-run printer (a few dozen copies at a time, say). Lulu.com starts offering discounts at 26 copies (7% discount for that many). I expect to do exactly that with an anthology I am helping to publish--short-run via Lulu so the sponsoring organization has copies to sell at conferences and the like. The up-front cost of several hundred or a thousand copies or more via a standard short-run printer is a huge barrier, infeasible for that project. Even at a higher per-copy price, the barrier at, say, 50 copies via POD is pretty modest.

--Ken

Komnena
11-07-2007, 07:38 PM
There ain't a Baggie in the world thick enough... :D

Jersey, please, pretty please with sugar on top, may I borrow a lighter?

Christine N.
11-07-2007, 08:00 PM
Most small presses use digital printing services, ie: Lightning Source. They don't print one at a time, like PA does, but they do a small print run of a hundred or so copies at a time. Yes, per unit it's more expensive, but if you can't afford or don't have the demand for an offset run, then it works well.

Samhain, I believe, uses this method, but since they have a distribution company, their 'demand' comes from the bookstore orders, not end-consumer orders.

That's really the difference between POD the technolog and POD the business model - whose demand are you responding to? Bookstore demand or consumer demand?

Jersey Chick
11-07-2007, 08:06 PM
Jersey, please, pretty please with sugar on top, may I borrow a lighter?


Sure - what color do you want?

**rummages through huge box** I've got pink, red, blue, green, purple (the color of royalty! :)), black, gray, yellow, orange, and turquiose. I may even have a Zippo or two in here if you don't want to have to worry about the flame going out before your hair catches! :D

Sheryl Nantus
11-07-2007, 08:18 PM
Dunno about the stuff you had in bold, but there is nothing strange or unheard-of about using a POD printer as an ultra-short-run printer (a few dozen copies at a time, say). Lulu.com starts offering discounts at 26 copies (7% discount for that many). I expect to do exactly that with an anthology I am helping to publish--short-run via Lulu so the sponsoring organization has copies to sell at conferences and the like. The up-front cost of several hundred or a thousand copies or more via a standard short-run printer is a huge barrier, infeasible for that project. Even at a higher per-copy price, the barrier at, say, 50 copies via POD is pretty modest.

--Ken

true, but I don't see PA putting the money out up front for ANY print run of any of their books - as another poster noted on the PAMB, it'd be impossible to store all those books. Especially since we *know* there's no actual PA warehouse and in fact they're running out of a single townhouse that can barely support the current staff.

while the PA poster may know something about book manufacturing, she seems to know little about the way PA works - the usual misinformation being fed to her by the other PA authors and a lack of real research. There *is* no "print run" of her book happening - I think she's trying to convince herself that PA is a legitimate publisher by saying this.

so it goes.

Christine N.
11-07-2007, 08:37 PM
Nope. LS does them one at a time, because that's how PA has their account set up.

brianm
11-07-2007, 08:37 PM
Is PA's "printing facility" up and running yet? They say this on their homepage...

5. We are the first traditional publisher in modern times to reverse the trend of outsourcing book printing, by building our own printing facility.

Building? Renting is building now? Or did they get such a cheap printer that assembly was required? Like when you buy a new BBQ and you have a little pile of nuts and bolts left over that you know should have been used but missed a step or two?

triceretops
11-08-2007, 03:51 AM
Thanks, Ken. The pod run claim was from a PA post. The poster believes that her books gets runs of 25 or more. That's why I was curious about it.

Tri

WWWWolf
11-08-2007, 05:03 AM
"5. We are the first traditional publisher in modern times to reverse the trend of outsourcing book printing, by building our own printing facility."
Building? Renting is building now?

Heck, it is more odd statement than that - what's so "modern" about the "trend of outsourcing book printing"? There's always been external print-houses. Everywhere. All the time.

In words of Mikael Agricola, in not-so-recent year 1543: "Tulkittu Somen Turus / Mutta paynettu Stocholmisa." ("Written in Turku, Finland, / But printed in Stockholm.")

Komnena
11-08-2007, 09:21 AM
Sure - what color do you want?

**rummages through huge box** I've got pink, red, blue, green, purple (the color of royalty! :)), black, gray, yellow, orange, and turquiose. I may even have a Zippo or two in here if you don't want to have to worry about the flame going out before your hair catches! :D

Thanks. Can I have turquoise?

emsuniverse
11-09-2007, 05:27 AM
PipeSmoker slips, yet again. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24334&sid=fc869d945613e3efc1b303e4bf7ee48a)

Someone asks when do you know when people buy your book online? One of the replies says

The only way you can tell is when you get your royalty statements. One in September and one in March. I didn't get any money on my first statement. God willing I'll get some on my second royalty statement. My 2nd book got rejected by Publish America so I have to find a way to save up around $600.00 for another publisher which sucks because I'm poor and don't get that much money.

then PipeSmoker says...

Why do you need $600? Lulu does it for nothing. If you want an ISBN (and you will) it will cost $50. That will get you the same distribution you get from PA. You will have to design your own cover.

Holy something. He just said PA and Lulu were the same.

Lighter. Now.

JimmyD1318
11-09-2007, 06:07 AM
Lighter. Now.


Here...use mine. Be careful! It hurts like hell the first time you set your hair on fire! Jersey promises that you go numb after a few times doing it.:D

BenPanced
11-09-2007, 08:49 AM
I'm getting to the point where I read some of these stories and rather than setting my hair on fire, I just want to punch myself in the head with the lighter. Lulu and PA aren't even in the same league!

Jersey Chick
11-09-2007, 07:46 PM
I'm getting to the point where I read some of these stories and rather than setting my hair on fire, I just want to punch myself in the head with the lighter. Lulu and PA aren't even in the same league!

Here, Ben, a Zippo works much better - though it might leave a bruise. Of course, if you don't set your hair on fire, it might hide the bruise.

Once you torch the nerve endings, all you feel is a little sting. Not so bad.

The difference is that Lulu is (probably) much more respectable. And they don't tie up your book for seven years. And you set your price. And... (need I really go on?)

Bottom line - PA sucks. End of story.

DamaNegra
11-09-2007, 07:55 PM
The difference is that Lulu is (probably) much more respectable. And they don't tie up your book for seven years. And you set your price. And... (need I really go on?)

Yes, yes, do go on, for the sake of informing.

JerseyGirl1962
11-09-2007, 09:05 PM
A lot of people on this board seem to think very highly of lulu. What's the difference between lulu and iUniverse, other than the price and services offered? I know lulu is free, but you have to format the text and design the cover; this is included in the iUniverse price. If any of you have self-pubbed through one or the other, I'd like to know who you would recommend and why.


Gloria,

Yup, off thread. :)

Here's (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=924&highlight=iuniverse) a thread for iUniverse. And another (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=983&highlight=lulu.com) one.

This is one thread (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79433&highlight=lulu.com) on Lulu.

But there are plenty of threads where Lulu is mentioned (I just did a search and came up with over 100 threads with "lulu.com" in them). You might want to look through the POD forum and see if there are threads there that are specific to lulu.com and your concerns/questions.

Good luck.

~Nancy

emsuniverse
11-09-2007, 10:55 PM
Lulu is a basic vanity press. However their books hold up better than PA, they are reasonably priced, better covers (basic, non cheesy, definitely not like the PA clipart massacre covers), and they're formatted better.

Oh, yeah. They also don't deliberately insert typos in their books to make sure they won't sell. PA does.

jamiehall
11-09-2007, 11:39 PM
The difference is that Lulu is (probably) much more respectable. And they don't tie up your book for seven years. And you set your price. And... (need I really go on?)

The PA vs. Lulu thread is here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62975).

brianm
11-10-2007, 09:16 PM
Example of how one PA author leads another newbie writer into PA’s scam net. If you read an excerpt from his book, it becomes apparent why Tor rejected his submission. After being rejected, he jumps on PA’s scam wagon believing, like so many others, that his writing is up to snuff and that he is being given the chance he deserves.

Hi all of you,
My name is Robert W. Watt and I am the author of a brand new series called "The Kingdoms at War Series." The first book "The Legacy Has Begun is at this moment in cover design. The ride with Publish America has been exciting and very professional and most of very quick. I submitted my manuscript to Tor publishing and had to wait 6 months and they denied my manuscript. Publish America accepted it immediately and it only took about two week to be accepted. I am very grateful to PA.
My close friend and fellow fantasy author L-M Owens already has her first book in her series "Darius, Prince of Legend" on the market. It is unknown how well it is doing in sales for she will not find out until February when PA puts out the statements. You can go to her website at www.freewebs.com/lmowens/
And if you want to check out my site the addy is www.freewebs.com/rwwatt/ Please sign our guestbooks and leave your comments. Thank you all for your time, and have a GREAT DAY!!!

Rather than honing their skills and submitting to legit publishers, they have chosen to believe the lies and misinformation PA and the PAMB spew forth on a daily basis.

emsuniverse
11-10-2007, 09:22 PM
The other PA author mentioned in this post is a member of AW and contacted me once via PM. However, she is in the honeymoon phase and believes we are “bashers” and jealous no talents.

Rather than honing their skills and submitting to legit publishers, they have chosen to believe the lies and misinformation PA and the PAMB spew forth on a daily basis.

Of course, we're all no talent hacks, didn't you know that? We've all been rejected by PA, so we're all completely and utterly jealous!

Oh yeah, and all us bookstores are involved in the Huge Publishing House Conspiracy, making sure that the up and coming press that is "revolutionizing" the industry stays down by only stock celebrity and big name books!

I love it, I fall into both categories. :D

CatSlave
11-10-2007, 10:02 PM
Sure - what color do you want?

**rummages through huge box** I've got pink, red, blue, green, purple (the color of royalty! :)), black, gray, yellow, orange, and turquiose. I may even have a Zippo or two in here if you don't want to have to worry about the flame going out before your hair catches! :D

BUT WAIT!!
Are your lighters embossed with the titles of your books ??

Jersey Chick
11-11-2007, 02:59 AM
BUT WAIT!!
Are your lighters embossed with the titles of your books ??

:D

Title, website, ISBN, phone number, home address, blog address - it's all in teeny tiny print, though.

emsuniverse
11-11-2007, 05:44 AM
Whenever you go buy a wig for the hair you're about to burn off, make sure you ask the wig-shop owner if you can place your books there on consignment.

Jersey Chick
11-11-2007, 05:52 AM
:ROFL:

I'll remember that! :D

JimmyD1318
11-11-2007, 06:56 AM
Whenever you go buy a wig for the hair you're about to burn off, make sure you ask the wig-shop owner if you can place your books there on consignment.
:ROFL:Good one!:ROFL: Have a bag of POPCORN from my secret stash!:popcorn:

Marian Perera
11-14-2007, 05:44 AM
Pipesmoker introduces a little reality into Author : The RPG (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=24404)

There have been numerous reviews by web reviewers posted recently and all seem to be rated 5 stars. This raises a question about their legitimacy and whether they might not be merely ego-strokers. I hope they are legitimate and that no one is paying to have a book reviewed.

He's one of the few people there who could survive after suggesting that those bright gleaming reviews might be more glister than gold. The best part, though, is someone else's reply in that thread.

Truly, such shenanigans detract from those of us who deserve 5 star reviews. If suddenly every illegible manuscript is handed a good review, then it makes the review process useless, and marginalizes the genuine credit good books warrant.

Tell me, who published those "illegible manuscript[s]"?

DaveKuzminski
11-14-2007, 06:47 AM
So much for revolutionizing the industry.