I have a really complex plot....

[nicegrrl]

So, I am writing a story with a very complex plot. The plot is still completely linear, so I think I can make it comprehensible. Anyways, aside from Dan Brown books, can anyone name some novels with highly complex plots that are still easy to follow? And any advise on how I can make the story flow without being confusing or tangential?

thanks a bunch!!

In case you want to read my progress with this,

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38264

[J. Weiland]

So, I am writing a story with a very complex plot. The plot is still completely linear, so I think I can make it comprehensible. Anyways, aside from Dan Brown books, can anyone name some novels with highly complex plots that are still easy to follow? And any advise on how I can make the story flow without being confusing or tangential?

thanks a bunch!!

I didn't know Dan Brown had complex plots :D


You should get hold of the book PLOT by Ansen Dibell. It will tell you everything you need to know about juggling different plot lines.

[nicegrrl]

Well, its that kind of plot. It's also comparable to the second Harry Potter book. The characters are trying to solve a problem and they keep finding clues, but have no idea where it is ultimately going. Its not like a who dunnit mystery or a michael chrighton book where you kind of know what the problem is and what the solution needs to solve.

[J. Weiland]

You need to know who-dunnit, or else you will have trouble putting out the right clues.

[nicegrrl]

Well, I'm not at that problem yet. Right now, the problem is that the story is just plain confusing to read. At times it even seems pointless since there is no clear problem like "look someone is dead", which sets a clear question of what needs solving.

[J. Weiland]

Much easier to write a story, I think, if there is a cental conflict of some sort that needs to be solved.

What is the story about?

[CaroGirl]

Sounds to me like a fairly straightforward plot. To the inexperienced (me included) even a basic, linear novel plot is an unwieldy thing.


To keep the threads neatly untangled, you might want to try plotting it on a graph. Decide what all your major plots are and put them along the vertical axis of a graph. Along the horizontal axis of the graph, list your chapters (in order, of course). This can help ensure you mention your major plots often enough to keep them in the reader’s mind throughout the novel. This method makes it easy to see any major gaps between the plots that might cause the reader to forget what’s going on.

[J. Weiland]

Sounds to me like a fairly straightforward plot. To the inexperienced (me included) even a basic, linear novel plot is an unwieldy thing.




To keep the threads neatly untangled, you might want to try plotting it on a graph. Decide what all your major plots are and put them along the vertical axis of a graph. Along the horizontal axis of the graph, list your chapters (in order, of course). This can help ensure you mention your major plots often enough to keep them in the reader’s mind throughout the novel. This method makes it easy to see any major gaps between the plots that might cause the reader to forget what’s going on.


This is in fact a very good idea. Think I will use it when I start working on my Science Fiction novel again. :)

[preyer]

correct me if i'm wrong, but is the story lacking focus which is being made up with too many subplots in an effort to figure the main plot out?

[J. Weiland]

correct me if i'm wrong, but is the story lacking focus which is being made up with too many subplots in an effort to figure the main plot out?

Then it could be labelled an experimental novel, couldn't it? :D

[nicegrrl]

There is actually only one plot. It is like a DB book. One linear plot filled with 1000 twisted little details.

You can read it in share your work if you want. It's called Terror wears Prada. I think I have chapters 1 and 3. I dont know what to do to make it easy to understand. I feel that right now I cant write dialogue and description at the same time. I dont know why this is. I dont normally have such problems. But I dont think Ive ever used dialogue to convey information instead of feelings.

[Bufty]

Dialogue makes characters come alive. Dialogue is meant to convey information and it can be a heck of a lot clearer, quicker and easier to follow and remember dialogue than narrative.

If you have minimal dialogue you're going to end up with blocks and blocks of narrative, which can be off-putting and tedious to read.

So you don't have sub-plots? Just little offshoots that quickly come back to the main plot? Or do you leave the offshoots dangling for too long?

There is actually only one plot. It is like a DB book. One linear plot filled with 1000 twisted little details.

You can read it in share your work if you want. It's called Terror wears Prada. I think I have chapters 1 and 3. I dont know what to do to make it easy to understand. I feel that right now I cant write dialogue and description at the same time. I dont know why this is. I dont normally have such problems. But I dont think Ive ever used dialogue to convey information instead of feelings.

[nicegrrl]

Well, so far there is more dialogue than narrative. My problem might be in plot structure somehow. I am not sure that the reader can follow the plot for the first few chapters. Its not that there are any plot off-shoots. The problem is that the reader doesnt know that there are no plot off-shoots and everything they are getting starts to come together. In the beginning, I worry that it seems kind of random.

[nicegrrl]

This is an outline of my plot. Tell me if it sounds convoluted. I mean for it to be rather straightforward.

1) characters discuss why Osama Bin Ladin's nephew, Faisal, talked to main character, Fatima. Faisal says he is interested in the building. Fatima's roomate says he is a terrorist.

2) Fatima's college friend notes that her apartment is across from an ambassador's house. They joke that you can get a clear shot at the ambassador's window from the apartment.

3) Fatima and roomate discuss what they are doing in London (this chapter is the first that gets into some character development)

4) Fatima calls ambassador about Faisal. She later sees Faisal who invites her to the Ambassador's house for a BBQ.

5) She goes to the BBQ and notices Faisal hitting on some girl, Tiffany, who is dating someoen she knows.

6) They figure out the girl he was hitting on was the daughter of a man that co-authored and enforces the patriot act.

7) They hang out with Tiffany and learn that she grew up on a diamond estate in South Africa- with some silent partner of the Debeer fortune. They learn that her parents are divorced and hate each other too. In this time they meet her father, see him talking to the ambassador and some diamond magnate.

8) The girls (Fatima and roomate) conjecture that the ambassador and Tiffany's father might benefit from allowing terrorists to bribe them in order to avoid arrest under the PA act and getting them access to diamonds, which can be used as currency that cant be detected through banking records. The girls give up on this and go home.

9) The girls are arrested under the PA act do not know why. They bribe themselves out of prison (dont worry- I make it make sense). They end up living as fugitives in eastern europe and try and figure out why they were arrested and what it was they knew too much about.

Ok, at that point there is a clear question of what needs to be fiugured out, so the plot should flow easily. But until then, the reader might not get where the story is going. Any ideas of what I should do? Maybe I should start the story in prison and work through flashbacks from the main character? This way the reader knows the story is indeed going somewhere.

[JanDarby]

It sounds like the plot is missing a spine or a through-line in its conflict. Story is not a series of incidents, but a series of cause and effect units. You might check out Jack Bickham's Scene & Structure, which does an excellent job of discussion the action-reaction sequences of storytelling.

The protagonist of each scene needs to have a goal and be pursuing it, not just reacting to what appear to be random events manipulated by someone else. It's the protagonist's goal, and the pursuit of it, that establishes the spine or storyline and connects the various events.

Figure out what the protagonist wants at the beginning of the book and the first action she takes toward that goal (the inciting event) and how she either attains or fails to attain that goal at the end. In between the inciting event and the end, you'll have some turning points where the character changes or her goal changes or something major changes and the book goes off in a different direction. But it all rotates around what the protagonist wants.

I haven't read Dan Brown, so I can't use him as an example. But I suspect that the protagonist has a goal in the beginning, and over the course of the book, every scene is related, in some way, to either achieving that goal or preventing him from achieving that goal.

Another good book to read on this topic is Deb Dixon's Goal, Motivation and Conflict. It's been a while since I read it, but I believe she focuses on how the GMC run throughout the whole story and hold the story together.

JD

[maestrowork]

Well, its that kind of plot. It's also comparable to the second Harry Potter book. The characters are trying to solve a problem and they keep finding clues, but have no idea where it is ultimately going. Its not like a who dunnit mystery or a michael chrighton book where you kind of know what the problem is and what the solution needs to solve.

I don't think the Chamber of Secrets has a complex plot. It has multiple threads and try to develop characters while proceeding with the main mystery. Plot is what they do to reveal the secret and what happens afterwards. You can't really force it, but if you know your characters and the central mystery, you can lay out the crumbs and clues while building your story along an arc. A lot of times, it's just getting your characters in a situation and letting them do their things to get out of it.

[icerose]

It sounds to me that you have no core story, more a series of random events, thus no plot at all. I have read some fairly intricate books with complicated plots and not one of them confused me when handled correctly.

If it confuses you, your readers will have no hope at all.

Also you are dealing with a muslim character as a main focus, flirting with female characters and such, they don't prize their women very highly and prefer them to be ghosts with no real place in the world except behind them and cloaked in yards of fabric, so the believability issue of him being open with women just doesn't grab me.

And watch the title, there was a movie recently made entitled Devil Wears Prada, unrelated story line, but still.

[Mayor of Moronia]

John Le Carre has complex plots....especially TINKER, TAILOR, SOLDIER, SPY and SMILEY'S PEOPLE. Both are excellent books.

[nicegrrl]

Well, you are right- harry potter and da vinci code arent all that complex. But they are more plot driven than most things I read. I guess my problem is that my characters dont seem too invested in the plot, which makes the reader disinterested.

icerose, what are you talking about? There def is a plot in my story. All the details are relavent to the plot too. And I dont know what you mean about the muslim thing... I think you're wayyy in left field there.

My main character is muslim and the plot is generally told from her perspective. I didnt think to clarify how westernized her and Faisal Bin Ladin are. I guess I could though. I mention that Faisal goes to boarding school for HS in Wales and then to Oxford. Would you be able to infer that he is westernized enough not to stick out in London? The main character is from NJ and went to school in the US, so she too is completely westernized and does not have cultural identity issues. Believe me, its possible. I dont have such issues either.

[Anonymisty]

...can anyone name some novels with highly complex plots that are still easy to follow?

Since I'm pretty sure you don't want to hear my opinion of Dan Brown, *grin*, I'm just going to focus on this question instead.

Tim Powers is one of the finest living fantasists, and his books feature intricately interwoven plots which he brings to fruition brilliantly. He never leaves anything hanging. If you want to see how it ought to be done, I highly recommend reading his book The Anubis Gates.

[nicegrrl]

Thanks. Tim powers it is.

[scribbler1382]

Read anything by Neal Stephenson, IMO. Also, get your hands on any book about themes. Two good ones are THEME AND STRATEGY by Ron Tobias (it's one of the Writer's Digest books), and THE ART & CRAFT OF NOVEL WRITING by Oakley Hall.

[Popeyesays]

I didn't know Dan Brown had complex plots :D


You should get hold of the book PLOT by Ansen Dibell. It will tell you everything you need to know about juggling different plot lines.

Read Flicker by Theodore Roszak, then figure out how he did it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_(novel)

Nothing I have read by Brown showed any sign of a complex plot, and his idea of a conspiracy is child's play compared to Roszak

Regards,
Scott Saylors

[MicheleLee]

Well, you don't want to hear this, so just keep scanning down if you can't take heat. But better to hear it at this level than from a bunch of agents.
Your description of your story at the summary level is supect. Harry Potter and Dan Brown, complicated but linear? Of course I am immediately suspect of any one who compares themselves, or their stories to the "hot tickets" of the moment.
When reading your summary I am immediately take by two things. 1) Almost everything appears to be dialog. I would get irritated with a book all about dialog, much less apparent political dialog. 2) all these things are dated. When you are finished, even after rewrites and editing it can take years to get an agent, years to get an editor, and standard time from acceptance to publication is about a year. If you have an agent with an acceptance lined up right now you will still be a year behind the trend... and what if (fat chance, but what if) osama is caught or killed in that year. They might pull your book because of this.
I also have concerns, like how is Fatima invited to a bbq at the embassy, unless it's a public event (in which case you need to do a little research to see how likely this is.)
>>6) They figure out the girl he was hitting on was the daughter of a man that co-authored and enforces the patriot act.
You really really need to watch facts here. If you want to use something realistic be aware that this person might not really exisit or they might take offense at being in your book.
>>7) They hang out with Tiffany and learn that she grew up on a diamond estate in South Africa-
Uh No. I'm serious here, no one with any knowledge of south africa will buy that. South Africa is a very dangerous, volitile place highly prone to kidnappings if anyone even thinks you might, possibly be important. No rich person with a mind would let their child grow up in South Africa.
>>They bribe themselves out of prison (dont worry- I make it make sense).
I don't think so. No one will buy this. Not with all the people in Gitmo right now.

I agree with Ice, not only do you not seem to have a plot, the characters seem about as clueless and aimless in their actions as the story, and if the over all plot is that they get arrested because of the discussion about the terrorist then that's weak. That's a new story, sure, but not a book plot unless it's personal narrative. I also agree about the comment on Muslims. Flirting with a western woman seems out of character. While you could go somewhere with this plot (I can think of some much more interesting things to do with it than three rich girls talking with each other) it's not got a strong plot at all right now. If you want to write about Muslim characters you really need to understand the religion, especially a sensitive one like Islam.
The fact that you obviously feel you're missing something important shows that you have promise and with some spit and polish I'm sure you can turn the book around. Is this the 120000 word novel you said you were working on in another thread? If so I really do not feel you have enough meat to your plot for this to be strong.

[nicegrrl]

Your description of your story at the summary level is supect. Harry Potter and Dan Brown, complicated but linear? Of course I am immediately suspect of any one who compares themselves, or their stories to the "hot tickets" of the moment.


I dont know who to compare myself to. I dont read books with plots like this. I read books which other people think have no plots. But Im not going to write a book that has no plot.

When reading your summary I am immediately take by two things. 1) Almost everything appears to be dialog. I would get irritated with a book all about dialog, much less apparent political dialog. 2) all these things are dated. When you are finished, even after rewrites and editing it can take years to get an agent, years to get an editor, and standard time from acceptance to publication is about a year. If you have an agent with an acceptance lined up right now you will still be a year behind the trend... and what if (fat chance, but what if) osama is caught or killed in that year. They might pull your book because of this.


I think it wont be a problem. Osama Bin Ladin has no connection to the story. His fictional nephew's connection with terrorists has nothing to do with Osama being arrested.

I also have concerns, like how is Fatima invited to a bbq at the embassy, unless it's a public event (in which case you need to do a little research to see how likely this is.)


I used to live across from the ambassador and I was invited to a 4th of July bbq through a friend. Tis likely.

>>6) They figure out the girl he was hitting on was the daughter of a man that co-authored and enforces the patriot act.
You really really need to watch facts here. If you want to use something realistic be aware that this person might not really exisit or they might take offense at being in your book.


He does exist. He would get mad except Im fictionalizing him to an unrecognizable point.

>>7) They hang out with Tiffany and learn that she grew up on a diamond estate in South Africa-
Uh No. I'm serious here, no one with any knowledge of south africa will buy that. South Africa is a very dangerous, volitile place highly prone to kidnappings if anyone even thinks you might, possibly be important. No rich person with a mind would let their child grow up in South Africa.

Tis also true. I wont say who exactly this person is, but her father was associated with the author of the patriot act and he raised his family on an estate belonging to a silent partner with the Debeers in SA for 3 years(also wont say the name) because he was the lawyer to that family. This was back in the day under Afrikaner control.

>>They bribe themselves out of prison (dont worry- I make it make sense).
I don't think so. No one will buy this. Not with all the people in Gitmo right now.


Well, Im talking about a secret black site prison in Poland. Since the govt denies these even exist (when they clearly do), then I can make up whatever I want about them. If bond can break out of prison, fatima can break out of prison. This is fiction. And they dont break out of prison, they bribe someone to send a letter to someone else that uses his connections to legitimately get them out of prison.

I agree with Ice, not only do you not seem to have a plot, the characters seem about as clueless and aimless in their actions as the story, and if the over all plot is that they get arrested because of the discussion about the terrorist then that's weak. That's a new story, sure, but not a book plot unless it's personal narrative.

They dont get arrested for that reason. They dont know why they get arrested. Thats where the real adventure starts. They try and figure out why they get arrested and the reason is substantial.


I also agree about the comment on Muslims. Flirting with a western woman seems out of character. While you could go somewhere with this plot (I can think of some much more interesting things to do with it than three rich girls talking with each other) it's not got a strong plot at all right now. If you want to write about Muslim characters you really need to understand the religion, especially a sensitive one like Islam.


???? Im sorry you want to orientalize people to this degree, but a lot of my family is made up of Indian muslims and I hate to tell you, but muslims arent all veiled up and clueless about westernization. Plenty of them are just not religious and not raised by religious parents. Seriously- plenty. Dont you know any normal muslims?!! And I used to live in St. Johns wood in London, which is filled with rich Saudis who used to talk to me everyday and they are not hillbillies from caravans. Plenty of them go to elite universities and dress and speak like they are completely western. In any case, Faisal Bin Ladin is a composite character of a Syrian prince that went to boarding school in the US and various thugs I know.

Its sad that you seem to think all muslims are fundementalists or strict. I just dont know what to say. Muslims in the western world are often westernized!! I know muslim skanks and potheads and lesbians and everything. And BTW, Im not muslim. Im hindu and we do not worship cows and feel conservative about dating. I can suck a golfball out of a garden hose just as well as the next sorority girl. FYI, I knew loads of muslim sorority girls in college.


The fact that you obviously feel you're missing something important shows that you have promise and with some spit and polish I'm sure you can turn the book around. Is this the 120000 word novel you said you were working on in another thread? If so I really do not feel you have enough meat to your plot for this to be strong.


That wasnt the whole plot. That was the first 30K words or so. And I think Im going for 90K now.

[nicegrrl]

Anyone that knows Saudis in London will probably believe my Faisal Bin Ladin character. But I forogt that most people's impression of Saudis is nothing like what the wealthy elite is actually like. Oh jeez. I could tell you stories (and I am). As VS Naipaul says, Saudis are good for nothing besides filling brothels and gambling dens. Now, its not that I never met a good Saud, I have, but your run of the mill Saudi man in London is not some conservative religious drone, no sir. There are entire brothels devoted to saudi clientelle in London. They are big spenders- on cocaine, women, parties, gambling. How can I impress this on people?

[Popeyesays]

I will vouch for the fact that Arabs are notorious horndogs -- especially the younger sons that go wesst for college educations. Many of them have wives back home, but are happy to shop for a new wife and not tell the western wife they marry they have competition back home.

Regards,
Scott

[nicegrrl]

I will vouch for the fact that Arabs are notorious horndogs -- especially the younger sons that go wesst for college educations. Many of them have wives back home, but are happy to shop for a new wife and not tell the western wife they marry they have competition back home.

Regards,
Scott

Thats exactly the type of guy Faisal bin Ladin is- the typical hybrid hyprocrite that harbors Islamic hatreds and revels in western pleasures. I know wayyyy too many people like that. People in London see such muslims everyday. They wear addidas and drink beer while they talk about how the western world is evil and should be destroyed. I even know a drinking smoking sorority girl with breast implants that thinks all jews in Israel should be killed ASAP and that muslims are in every way more sophisticated than westerners. WTF!!

[virtue_summer]

I also agree about the comment on Muslims. Flirting with a western woman seems out of character. While you could go somewhere with this plot (I can think of some much more interesting things to do with it than three rich girls talking with each other) it's not got a strong plot at all right now. If you want to write about Muslim characters you really need to understand the religion, especially a sensitive one like Islam.

Actually, I think most of the restrictions and punishments with regard to this kind of behavior (flirting) are on the women in Islamic countries. So the men might still flirt and might be more likely to hit on a western woman, in order not to get a Muslim woman in trouble and possibly because of a misconception that western means loose. And why shouldn't a Muslim man spending a lot of time in the west become westernized? Seriously, isn't there variety in Islam just like in every other religion?

[MicheleLee]

I thought the tradional expectations and modern behavior could bring an interesting conflict, but it seems to just be a way to introduce your main characters to Tiffany. As a possible reader of this future story I feel far too much like I'm being BSed to buy any of these "I've lived it" explantions. There's an author out there claiming to be a decendant of Jesus and Mary Magdelen too. I'm not buying that either.
I do know Muslims, I know they're not all fantatical and I never said anything about them being fanatical. I just said you need to be careful and know what their culture and traditions are. Even if your characters aren't traditional knowing where they differ and why will help you build tension and create a real world.
If this is mostly based on people you know, then perhaps you should mark it as a memoir or "Inspired by a true story". You seem to subconciously sense that you have a problem with the plot of the story, which does not seem as complex as you say.
And, if the real adventure starts when they escape from prison (Two modern semi-teen girls are NOT Bond) then start the book there, instead of with all this build up. You can insert these things later as explainations. As is it sounds somewhat tepid. I think you realize that, thus asking for help.

[nicegrrl]

I thought the tradional expectations and modern behavior could bring an interesting conflict, but it seems to just be a way to introduce your main characters to Tiffany. As a possible reader of this future story I feel far too much like I'm being BSed to buy any of these "I've lived it" explantions. There's an author out there claiming to be a decendant of Jesus and Mary Magdelen too. I'm not buying that either.

Sigh. Everyone thinks its interesting. I guess I'll put something in there about the east/west conflict. I just dont like to write that stuff because Im not paticularly interested in my own east/west conflicts. I see nothing interesting about such a concept and I have no idea why other people like to hear stories of such feelings. I havent lived the interesting part of the story. Ive just lived the seemingly plotless beginning of the story. I used to live across the street from the ambassador in St. Johns wood- down the street from Paul Mcartney, in front of Lords cricket ground and in the middle of 10 bazillion rich arabs. I used to work in parliament, so I am somewhat familiar with the international political elite. This is sort of interesting, but not really. There is no plot to a real person's experience, hence I am making one up. Who wants my memoirs? Im no one. I dont even want my memoirs.

I do know Muslims, I know they're not all fantatical and I never said anything about them being fanatical. I just said you need to be careful and know what their culture and traditions are. Even if your characters aren't traditional knowing where they differ and why will help you build tension and create a real world.
If this is mostly based on people you know, then perhaps you should mark it as a memoir or "Inspired by a true story". You seem to subconciously sense that you have a problem with the plot of the story, which does not seem as complex as you say.
And, if the real adventure starts when they escape from prison (Two modern semi-teen girls are NOT Bond) then start the book there, instead of with all this build up. You can insert these things later as explainations. As is it sounds somewhat tepid. I think you realize that, thus asking for help.

Well, there is no rhyme or reason for where tradition and modernity ends with an individual. I know a lady who had an arranged marriage at 15 in Pakistan to a cousin from her tribe. She hated how he treated her, escaped to a relative's house in the US and married a white doctor and now lives like a completely western suburban housewife. I know another pakistani girl whose parents left pakistan so she wouldnt be subjected to religious extremism. That girl decided to wear a burka to high school because of her piety. I know a taliban leader (meeting him was a fun story) who cannot comprehend why the taliban was bad and I know a pakistani man who slept with his teacher in pakistan in HS and now makes porn videos in Fiji. The real world of the modern muslim is impossible to paint through one person. I plan to have my main character meet some other more devout muslims while in prison where she will contemplate her relation to them and her east/west dilemna. 2 of my best friends growing up were pakistani muslims and their parents were completely westernized as were the kids. That's the type of muslim Fatima is- one who has very minimal sense of her muslim identity.

So, there are two things I can do with my plot- 1 is to start it in the prison and go into flashbacks here and there. But I dont think this is the only option. The first third of the book (and I can make it less than a third) could read like a society novel at least. Since such novels can keep a reader's interest, I think I might be able to start it when they meet Faisal if I focus on some internal drive of Fatima's.

For some reason, I really dont want this to be a very intelligent novel about religious beliefs or cultural identity or poltical statements. I just want it to be a fun story you read on the plane or the beach.

[gp101]

NiceG,

I don't see anything that confusing about your outline. Fatima meets the nephew, he wants in on her building which is conveniently located across the street from the ambassador. The more she is seen with him causes an alert to be sounded, so she gets taken away (the only problem I have thus far is that she doesn't seem to have any clue why she's snagged; if it were me, I would assume right away that it was my association with the nephew).

Do I have it right so far? If so, what's so hard to understand about it? I don't get the big beef people are having with it. I would assume Fatima would spend the rest of the novel trying to prove her innocense while on the run, and also trying to stop the nephew from doing his evil deed. If I've made an *** of myself by totally misunderstanding your plot, please say so; otherwise, I think it's pretty easy to foloow, and not a bad plot to work with.

BTW, you don't have to make the nephew a member of OBL's family. There's enough nutcases out there that aren't related to him. He could have other family ties or personal connections to make him beep on someone's radar. The OBL connection might open a whole can o' worms you might not want to deal with as far as contemporary events are concerned.

As far as Saudis and/or Arabs in the West in generel... your portrayal is not far off. I've partied with them for fifteen years. In the hotbead of universities in Boston and Providence, there are tons of foreign students from everywhere. A lot are middleastern... Turkey, S.A., Jordan, Lebanon, etc. A lot from India and other Far East nations as well. Regardless (or maybe because) of the "rules" back home, they party like animals just like the rest of us. I've been to clubs, and worked in clubs, that cater to this foreign student market. A little techno, a little Hindi music, a little Arabic, a little Spanish... and everyone's dancing and drinking and screwing (later, anyways). They enjoy themselves while they are in the West because oftentimes, they can't do these things back home, with exceptions, of course. They were just as fun-loving, and sometimes just as amoral, as a lot of "us". I've been to clubs where Arabs and Jews, Pakis and Hindis, Turks and Greeks (and Armenian), and Japanese and Chinese are all in the same room, all getting drunk, nobody looking to kill each other. Sometimes, when they return homeland, it may be different. But while they're in the West, it's all good. But these folks tended to be students, and also tended to be the richest of the rich, or politically connected, or at least, the smartest of the class back in their homelands. Doubt if you could get away with this type of scene if the peeps were the down-trodden of their respective societies, and grew up little education, and therefore, limited openmindedness.

Good luck with your story. If I haven't convaluted your meaning, it sounds interesting, and complicated... but not un-understandable, IYKWIM.

And one final BTW:


I even know a drinking smoking sorority girl with breast implants

Is she single??

[J. Weiland]

Is she single??

She probably prefers it that way.

[merper]

From your SYW post, it seems like these girls are pretty much your average (but smart - I think you're trying to pull this off right?) self-involved college chicks. I find it somewhat hard to see them involved in international espionage and doing things like breaking out of a high security prison - which I'm guessing is the sort of thing you'd be thrown into if you were caught under the Patriot Act > Thinking Guantonomo here. You have chick-lit meets James Bond here, and I'm not sure how you can pull that off realistically. Maybe make the girls more resourceful from the start? Or have the whole thing be some sort of comedic satire of Western views on Muslims or something. I mean this thread itself lends credence to that. Now THAT would be hilarious.

Anyway, I have to say, it's been amusing watching non-muslims tell a muslim how real muslims behave.

[nicegrrl]

gp101, yeah you got it. I dunno. I just worried that it didnt seem like the story was going anywhere in the beginning. I'll just write the beginning and post the whole thing and people can tell me what to do with it. And the chick with fake **** just got married, sorry. But I'm single. Merper, you are right. This is chick lit meets bond and my characters are average smart girls. I dont think I can quite make this a satire- the humor would be too elevated. I dont think most people could ever get how making fun of these things could be a joke.

[icerose]

Must not be my kind of story because it sounds dull, lifeless, and meanders through the series of events until, what? They suddenly realize they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and it was all a mistake??

I don't get it.

And the reason why it's a hard sell for some of us, is because you have not just one hard to believe scene which you profess to be true through personal experience, but the whole book is comprised of hard to believe situations and scenes. If you want people to suspend their disbelief for the duration of your book, get your pacing up, the story flowing with only what's neccessary, and keep the unbelievable events as believable as possible. As for the people, that's fine, have them party animals, just know that it's going to be hard for people to believe that osama's nephew is going along with the western ways and not having an issue with women not wearing vales and treating them as peers.

[J. Weiland]

Just because Osama bin Laden is a radical muslim, it is not a law that the rest of his family is also. Didn't many Osamas live in the U.S. (the western world) before September 11th?
There are probably numerous examples of bad black sheeps in a family who do not denominate the rest of the family.

[Chisem]

Just something for you to consider. You need a central character who will develop during the story and become strongerr from having lived it.
Years ago when I was a lad, a teacher gave us a one line sentence to describe story: A likeable character battles against great odds to achieve a worthwhile goal.

Your characters aren't particularly likeable, but the odds are great, and the goal I'm unsure of.

Just something to think on. It's your vision and your dream.

[nicegrrl]

Must not be my kind of story because it sounds dull, lifeless, and meanders through the series of events until, what? They suddenly realize they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and it was all a mistake??

I don't get it.


I know. The rest of the story makes sense of the first part, which as of now, might look random to a reader.

If you want people to suspend their disbelief for the duration of your book, get your pacing up, the story flowing with only what's neccessary, and keep the unbelievable events as believable as possible. As for the people, that's fine, have them party animals, just know that it's going to be hard for people to believe that osama's nephew is going along with the western ways and not having an issue with women not wearing vales and treating them as peers.

I thought it was common knowledge that Bin Laden's neice posed almost nude in GQ. And I thought it was common knowledge that Hether Mills (Mcartney's ex to be) is doging several accusations that she was paid to have sex with some wealthy arab. Come on people, read the tabloids.

http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_4071

As for Bin Laden's other neices and nephews, dont you remember as Farenheit 911 pointed out that 23 members of his family flew out of the country immediately after Sept 11? They werent living in caves when they left either. They were living it up and partying with the WASP elite.

No problem though, I guess I can devote a few paragraphs to describing the relevant subsets of muslims in London.

[nicegrrl]

Chisem, you're totally right. I really need to focus on making Fatima likable and someone ordinary readers can identify with. Originally, I wanted to make the character a caucasian girl, so it would be easier.

[J. Weiland]

they don't prize their women very highly and prefer them to be ghosts with no real place in the world except behind them and cloaked in yards of fabric, so the believability issue of him being open with women just doesn't grab me.



This is prejudice. The same thing as saying that all buddhists are monks.

[UrsusMinor]

If you have an underlying plot, but it takes a long time to emerge, the way you keep the reader's interest in the meantime is through misdirection. That is, you create an apparent overriding conflict or issue that gives a spine to the story and pulls the reader along while you layer in the details that later coalesce into the true plot.

Misdirection is usually used on a smaller scale--for example, a scene with a husband and wife arguing about something, when the main purpose of the scene is to delineate character and sneak in hints of background information--but it can be used over many chapters, as a kind of false plotline. (Quite common in detective novels, when investigation of one apparent issue leads to involvement in something much larger. The really slick ones give you an apparent plotline that leads you to the real plot, and then at some point tie the original thread back in.)

My main caution is that whatever 'false throughline' you choose, it has to be compatible in tone and mileu with the real, ultimate plot. If your readers are enjoying, say, a chick-lit novel, they don't want to suddenly be plunged into a high-tech, hard SF story.

[icerose]

This is prejudice. The same thing as saying that all buddhists are monks.

Oh, I guess all of those country's laws of having the women hidden or be punished is just a pitch of the press.

Taking note.

I am pulling this from my own personal and family experiences from those who have traveled to those country's and have served military duties and reporting duties over there. It is often THAT bad, if not a thousand times worse.

It isn't all that uncommon for a woman to be pulled out into the street, stripped naked and beaten to death for her vale slipping.

Or for a woman to be killed or expected to commit suicide for having been raped as a local punishment for something someone in her family might have done.

If that isn't a slight against women I don't know what is. Back to my corner.

[hjwilde]

Obviously people have different opinions here but I really do think that there are better ways of putting criticism.

Before people post, perhaps it might be an idea to think how they would feel if someone used the same words to criticise their story.

Just a thought

H

[J. Weiland]

Oh, I guess all of those country's laws of having the women hidden or be punished is just a pitch of the press.

Taking note.

I am pulling this from my own personal and family experiences from those who have traveled to those country's and have served military duties and reporting duties over there. It is often THAT bad, if not a thousand times worse.

It isn't all that uncommon for a woman to be pulled out into the street, stripped naked and beaten to death for her vale slipping.

Or for a woman to be killed or expected to commit suicide for having been raped as a local punishment for something someone in her family might have done.

If that isn't a slight against women I don't know what is. Back to my corner.

If all muslims were killin' their women there would not be that many muslims in the world, do you agree?

Muslims in the western world, I am sure, do not commit these acts at least. What you are describing may take place in very isolated muslim villages where they live after ancient muslim laws, e.g. the examples I have heard of were in very small, isolated villages in Nigeria and Pakistan. Surely, they do not beat muslim women to death in the streets of Jarkarta and Damascus on a regular basis?

[Peggy]

If you have an underlying plot, but it takes a long time to emerge, the way you keep the reader's interest in the meantime is through misdirection. That is, you create an apparent overriding conflict or issue that gives a spine to the story and pulls the reader along while you layer in the details that later coalesce into the true plot. I personally like multilayered stories like this. Maybe give some sinister hints that there is something bigger going on.

[merper]

Oh, I guess all of those country's laws of having the women hidden or be punished is just a pitch of the press.

Taking note.

I am pulling this from my own personal and family experiences from those who have traveled to those country's and have served military duties and reporting duties over there. It is often THAT bad, if not a thousand times worse.

It isn't all that uncommon for a woman to be pulled out into the street, stripped naked and beaten to death for her vale slipping.

Or for a woman to be killed or expected to commit suicide for having been raped as a local punishment for something someone in her family might have done.

If that isn't a slight against women I don't know what is. Back to my corner.

Do you even get the fact that you're trying to tell a muslim how they really behave?

How many muslims have you run across in Utah anyway? And how many of those Utahanized Muslim(s) beat their women on a regular basis.

You think the type of muslims underclass stuck in villages without electricity practicing 7th century beliefs in countries that end with "stan" who actually do the things you say is the target market for this sort of book, or even any sort of book?

Good god, just save comments like those for when you phone in to the O'reilly factor. Or better yet, move out of Utah.

[J. Weiland]

I personally like multilayered stories like this. Maybe give some sinister hints that there is something bigger going on.

Maybe it could turn out a political thriller a la Frederick Forsyth?

[nicegrrl]

You guys get to help me make sure that Fatima is likable and that I can keep a multilayered plot going.


Oh, I guess all of those country's laws of having the women hidden or be punished is just a pitch of the press.

Taking note.


Well, the wealthy arabs that like those laws stay in those countries. Those that done feel like living by them come live in the west and then they often go wild. Truth be told, there are any number of wealthy arab men that screw prostitutes every weekend but would stone their wife for so much as chatting with another man. And I think Saudi Arabia is the only country where women would be severely beating for a veil falling. Not that this stops SA girls in the west from doing as they please.

[UrsusMinor]

I have to say that this thread has veered wildly off-track--and in a way that I feel has very little to do with the craft of writing a novel.

[Birol]

Let's stay focused on the OP's question and not devolve into a political debate about the beliefs of others, okay?

[hjwilde]

I personally like multilayered stories like this. Maybe give some sinister hints that there is something bigger going on.

So do I :) I think the outline you gave has loads of potential for that. So maybe it isn't perfect yet but at this stage it really doesn't have to be.


"For some reason, I really dont want this to be a very intelligent novel about religious beliefs or cultural identity or poltical statements. I just want it to be a fun story you read on the plane or the beach."

- Sounds great. I say go for it - and let me know when it comes out :)

[nicegrrl]

Why Urus, I dont feel like its off track- Its helping me. I learned many pointers on how to make my plot emerge in a compelling manner.
Plus, I learned what parts of my story are on the unbelievable side. Its no problem. If people dont believe it, I'll add explanation.

Like if you dont think any Americans grew up in South africa- Well, just think about it- We know that South Africa was under white control for a long time and we know that it is a country with a lot of mineral wealth. Common sense tells that the mineral wealth has been in the hands of a white elite for the last century. Most people are familiar with something about the Debeers and the Rhodes family. Is it so hard to imagine how South African mineral wealth has passed through all sorts of western hands over the last 100 years? Can you see why American bussinesspeople would take interest in the country? Not so unbelievable, I hope.

[icerose]

To your credit many wealthy White people live in South Africa, as they do Porta Rico, and every other country in the world. Very dangerous places to live for rich families (even some poor) but that doesn't stop people, never has.

So I do believe in the South African bit. I do think your story could have clout, it's just the part you gave was unfocused and seemingly going no where very slowly.

I'm sure you will figure out how to handle it, as it seems you are already gaining good ground on your story.

As for the tabloids, sorry, never read them.

At the end of the day though, if you feel there is a problem with the story, there probably is. I would suggest a plot graph like others have said, or a misdirection, something that gives a strong push forward in the story, so you aren't depending on people sticking around until the real plot breathes life.

Or perhaps you are suffering from what Uncle Jim calls a false start, I believe. Write the story, then decide where it begins. It may be that your story doesn't even start until after the first 30k.

And Merper retract the claws.

And BTW, Im not muslim. Im hindu and we do not worship cows and feel conservative about dating.

And you don't have to personally travel to learn about the world around you, although I would love to go. And I am very happy to see some muslim groups moving toward the more leinent and fair mindedness when it concerns women.

BTW nicegrrl, who ever thought you worshiped cows??? The hindu faith is interesting, I won't pretend to understand it all, but it is fascinating.

[merper]

And Merper retract the claws.

Your posts were trying to convey that no one would buy the story because Muslim men want to hide and abuse their women or something, when this is not the case. Hell, even the 9/11 comission reports found that the guys who flew the planes frequented strip clubs before their mission, so a womanizing muslim male lead(antagonist?) is very believable to anyone that's been watching the news. So this is very much in line with analyzing the elements of the plot line.

[icerose]

Your posts were trying to convey that no one would buy the story because Muslim men want to hide and abuse their women or something, when this is not the case. Hell, even the 9/11 comission reports found that the guys who flew the planes frequented strip clubs before their mission, so a womanizing muslim male lead(antagonist?) is very believable to anyone that's been watching the news. So this is very much in line with analyzing the elements of the plot line.

Fine I conceed, but no need to resort to personal attacks, sheesh. And in my post I was merely painting the common notion of muslims here in the west and what we see them doing in their own countries. I realized when I wrote it that it was a broad stroke, but in the mainstream public that's what they see. So I was pointing that out, so she could figure out how to handle it or explain it to a mainstream audience within the context of her story.

[J. Weiland]

I have to say that this thread has veered wildly off-track--and in a way that I feel has very little to do with the craft of writing a novel.


Yes, sorry for taking this thread slightly off track, although this discussion did have its origin in comments made on the story.

[merper]

Well then the truth presented as a counterweight to the mainstream view could offer a lot of enlightening humor to the book - like I said in my first post.

I'll admit, the O'reilly comment was a bit personal, but the Utah thing wasn't. I just happen to know that Utah isn't exactly a mecca - so to speak - for emigrating muslims. Anyway, enough thread hijacking, if you want to continue this talk, send me a PM.

[J. Weiland]

The mainstream view tells me that only Mormons live in Utah. :D


Politics and religion are always dangerous things to discuss, although interesting when the heat is on. Let's stop for now. I'm waving the old white flag.

[MicheleLee]

Obviously people have different opinions here but I really do think that there are better ways of putting criticism.

Before people post, perhaps it might be an idea to think how they would feel if someone used the same words to criticise their story.

Just a thought

H

I distinctly remember putting compliments on Nicegrrl's ability to sense her problem in both of my posts. I never insulted her personally and I do remember that this is supposed to be a professional board not a kiss-butt board and professionals should be able to take comments or even critisism from peers. I do think that nicegrrl has taken the comments well. She may be frustrated with people not getting it, but she's not the one telling us who had the balls to give a not kiss up opinion that we're prejudice. And no, I have absolutely no obligation to ever be nice to anyone.

[MicheleLee]

Oh, Nicegrrl, I don't think that you have to make it a parady, or even make the tradition vs modernization a major part. But there's something called a theme where it can come up, be mentioned once or so but shown constantly. You don't have to mention it, blatanly, just throw in in the face of the reader, especially if there is a more traditional muslim, or christan or any religon that is being traditional, or simply a catholic leaving a party early to make it to mass the next day. Little events or comments like that can go very far without ever having to make the book about the conflict, or making light of it.

[MicheleLee]

Your posts were trying to convey that no one would buy the story because Muslim men want to hide and abuse their women or something, when this is not the case. Hell, even the 9/11 comission reports found that the guys who flew the planes frequented strip clubs before their mission, so a womanizing muslim male lead(antagonist?) is very believable to anyone that's been watching the news. So this is very much in line with analyzing the elements of the plot line.

Oh she was not. There is a lot more to fix, and more important fixes that some craziness about muslim men. Like the fact that the story seems to be (from the description) a couple of girls talking and going to "events" if not parties. The major conflict doesn't really start until they break out of jail and are on the run. And icerose NEVER said all muslims were like that, she countered that not all muslim WERE NOT like that. In some place, even nicegrrl admits, all those femenist horror stories we hear are only slightly exaggerated. No one would expect a family who came here to escape intolerance, like the Irish did in the 1800s, the Puritans did in the 1600s and Middle Easterners and Hispanics do now, to remain as volitile and close minded as the place they came from. How could you live in a modern city and not get Americanized? The trick is finding the balance between the old and the new and college kids have no desire to maintain the old. Nice grrl has also already said she has no plans to make Islam a major part of the story so my first comments are pretty much nulled.
As I said in another thread. CHILL.

[Blondie22]

I like the idea of starting the book with (or having a flashback to) the girls being in jail. It'll give the readers a vested interest in what happened at the beginning of the book if they're looking for clues as to why the main characters are imprisoned.

[hjwilde]

I distinctly remember putting compliments on Nicegrrl's ability to sense her problem in both of my posts. I never insulted her personally and I do remember that this is supposed to be a professional board not a kiss-butt board and professionals should be able to take comments or even critisism from peers. that we're prejudice.

Michele, I was trying to calm the argument down, not aiming at anyone in particular.

Btw what I said about Nicegrrl's idea was not my 'kiss-butt' opinion - just my honest one. If I didn't like it I would have said so - nicely.

[gp101]

Oh she was not. There is a lot more to fix, and more important fixes that some craziness about muslim men. Like the fact that the story seems to be (from the description) a couple of girls talking and going to "events" if not parties. The major conflict doesn't really start until they break out of jail and are on the run.


I don't know if I can simply paste the actual column here legally, but read this great (and short) piece on where to begin your novel from an agent's blog:


http://wyliemerrick.blogspot.com/2006/05/where-to-begin-then.html


Nicegrrl's opening fits the bill. It's the classic "a stranger comes to town" type of opening. Everything's cool in town, the MC's life is going on as normal--and for her, normal seems to bring quite a social calendar; maybe that's not our normal life, but it happens to be the MC's. Then the nephew shows up and changes everything. He doesn't have to make a big whopping change in her life right on page 1; just his appearance and his subtle steps toward his goal are enough to change the MC's life, which creates conflict, which drives the plot.

I think the MC's arrest/abduction to a black prison is the point that throws the story in another direction, maybe what leads to Act 2; what is generally called Plotpoint 1 in screenwriting.

Again, I don't see why so many have a problem with NiceG's beat list so far.

[icerose]

Actually Utah is only 50% mormon or less, only 30% in some areas, it's a common misconception.

Anyway, on to the topic.

Another thought of a beginning, take it however you like.

The girls are already on the run, fugitives from the law, we have no idea why they are running, and going through the under ground, whatever.

One of the girls is tramatized from the prison experience, so she laspes into flashbacks, or psychotic fits or something, and the other girl promises it will be okay when they clear their name and go home.

And we as a reader find out the past and what happened and why it happened as the girls work to clear their name.

That would have my interest piqued right from the start because the characters are already knee deep in conflict and we get to find out why. Especially if you had the stronger of the two reading a snippet about them in a newspaper or something, that would give us a good peek at to where they came from and what they fell from to their current situation.

But again, it's your story, so it's up to you.

And GP101, I don't care for the beat list because it sounds like dullsville boring to me. I don't expect everyone to agree or even anyone, it's just I find it boring. I don't tend to read about two rich girls going to party and living the "good" life. If I wanted to read that, I would read chick lit, or watch Sex in the City. It doesn't grab me, so I am giving input from that point of view.

[JanDarby]

Then the nephew shows up and changes everything.

Except, as written, he doesn't show up. All that happens is the girls are TALKING about his HAVING shown up before the scene started.

If, on the other hand, the first scene was the nephew actually showing up, and the protagonist's interaction with him, then I'd agree with you. It would work well as an inciting event. In which case, it should be shown, in an active scene, not told by infodump disguised as dialogue.

One other note, on a slightly different aspect of the beginning (which Nicegrrl has already indicated she's going to change): Donald Maass, in his Writing the Breakout Novel, states emphatically (although it's something of an over-simplification) that kitchen scenes should always be cut.

His point, essentially, is that there's seldom any tension or conflict in a scene where a couple of people are sitting around, chatting over a cuppa'. Obviously, if there's a struggle over an assassin's knife, or it's a family drama and the kitchen is the center of hostilities between mother and daughter who are each trying to establish dominance there, or some such thing, that's different. But in most stories, setting a scene in a kitchen should be a red flag that there's no conflict in the scene.

JD

[nicegrrl]

Icerose, I also think books like Sex and the City get boring although Candace Bushnell is still one of my favorite authors. Thus, my society novel eventually gets some action. There is only so long anyone actually likes reading about rich girls in their rich world doing nothing except being rich. And in any case, my main character isnt a bit rich. She's a hard working middle class girl from New Jersey. I rarely see authors who can get readers to actively sympathize with a rich female main character- people just dont like them.

Anyways, I didnt start it when she meets Faisal because I didnt want to mislead people into thinking it was a romance story. And the location of the apartment is integral to the story, so I started it in the kitchen. But, I'm going to take them out of the kitchen quickly so it doesnt get boring.

[Peggy]

Anyways, I didnt start it when she meets Faisal because I didnt want to mislead people into thinking it was a romance story. And the location of the apartment is integral to the story, so I started it in the kitchen. But, I'm going to take them out of the kitchen quickly so it doesnt get boring. But no one would think it's a romance story if Fatima doesn't react romantically to Faisal - and a mixture of fear, uncertainty and attraction does not necessarily make a romance. You could still get the location of the apartment in when you describe him showing up.

[Bufty]

This is an interesting thread and I hope you get it all fathomed out, Nicegirrl.
The chapters I read, I didn't care for, simply because the dialogue didn't hold too much interest and what the girls were doing was of little interest, too.

You know all the background and you know where it's all leading. But for me at least, trying to get involved in the story from the narrative and dialogue as is, is not easy.

You've some good suggestions above and I'm sure it will all sort itself out.

[icerose]

I strongly recommend Brokedown Palace.

It seems to be in the vein of what you are battling with.

It has romantic elements in the beginning, but is far from being a romance and the guy ends up being, well you'll see when you watch it.

Strongly suggested.

[merper]

Anyways, I didnt start it when she meets Faisal because I didnt want to mislead people into thinking it was a romance story. And the location of the apartment is integral to the story, so I started it in the kitchen. But, I'm going to take them out of the kitchen quickly so it doesnt get boring.

But the question is: how soon are they out of the apartment?

The reader you want to get is going to be based on the first five pages(or close to that). If I saw two girls talking about a guy, regardless of whether they think the guy is cute or think he's some global supervillain, I'd put the book aside, thinking it's your normal chick-lit. It's still two girls talking, and like it or not that immediately sets a mood and is going to win you certain readers and lose you certain readers.

I mean, at this point, it could just as easily be about these girls running around campus and then finding out that this guy is just perv who wants to watch the ambassador get dressed as it is a story of international intrigue. And the way they talk about it, they seem so relaxed - drinking wine and all - so that it's more gossip than tension.

Now if, like other posters have suggested, they were in prison at the beginning, you'd have plenty of reason to do a flashback to this scene - since it's pretty natural for prisoners to think "how the hell did I wind up in here" - AND you can still maintain that fresh, self-deprecating chick-lit tone, through Fatima's voice. You'll get the right readers - "Hey, it's an international spy thriller narrated by a quirky college girl" and have the tension from the start.

[nicegrrl]

Well, before I consider how boring my story is, do you like chick lit in general?

[Peggy]

Well, before I consider how boring my story is, do you like chick lit in general? I do enjoy "chick lit". Is that the genre this will fall into? because chick lit usually has at least some romantic involvement in it (and the characters don't just sit around talking about what happened).

[Bufty]

Posted after my post, I don't know if your question's addressed to me or not, Nicegrrl, but I didn't say your story was boring - I only said the sections I read didn't hold my interest. That's nothing to do with the overall story, and as already said, I do wish you well with it.

[nicegrrl]

What genre should it go into? It could be an international poltical thriller, it could potentially be a pretty intelligent story about culture wars and the Bush admin, it could be chick lit. I think Merper has what I was going for- "fresh, self-deprecating chick-lit tone"

[nicegrrl]

Oh wait, Bufty read chapter 3- yeah, that was boring.

At this point, I'll go start writing from the middle and sort the beginning out later.

[Dekomposer]

Try, the Day of the Jackal!

[merper]

Definitely stay away from Bush - If you're just starting to write it, I don't think that this book will come out before his term ends, unless he appoints himself Ruler for life. Then again...

I think you could definitely go for the naive college girl turned spy angle. Kind of like a counterpoint to Alias - a girl who isn't willing to sacrifice her old life to save the world. There's only so many books out where the protagonist spy is a Navy seal disillusioned with the government but working for it anyway, and who performs 10 trillion checks before he even goes to the bathroom.

Who is it that writes about the clumsy female detective. Janet Evanovich or something? I've never read her books, but you could definitely go for that audience, perhaps even a bigger target if you bring out some of the culture vs culture humor.

[Peggy]

Try, the Day of the Jackal! Now that was an excellent thriller. But no "chick lit" feel for sure.

[nicegrrl]

Ok, I posted another version of chapter 1 in the literary section of share your work. This one is told in 1st person flash back form in prison. I'm going to try several ways of writing this to see which works.

[laurel29]

I haven't read it yet so bear that in mind when you read this, but instead of the girls talking about the conversation between Fatima and Faisal, why don't you show that in a scene? If it is important to the story it might be more engaging to see the scene go down that just hear it described through a conversation. I think skipping forward to the prison scene could work, but if you dump a lot of flashbacks in later that can slow it up as well. I'm trying not to do a lot of flashbacks because I sometimes find them irritating, but if well done they are all right.

[nicegrrl]

yeah, I have no idea how to do flashbacks. I just did another version of chap 1 with Faisal meeting Fatima in 3rd person.

[nicegrrl]

And here is the link- I encourage everyone to crit. The more the merrier.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38264