Formula seems imperfect - Perhaps greatness demands innovation.

[ShawnW]

I saw a movie last night called 'War Games' that was the personification of 'by the numbers' film making. It used every device very effectivly, and followed every guideline to the letter.

Trouble is, despite a talented caste and director... it was good, as good as it could be, but not great, and not capable of greatness.

I've come to the conclusion that to make a great film, the mold must be broken.

Thoughts?

[English Dave]

Are you talking about the 1983 kids movie WarGames?

I don't think that was intended to break any moulds.

Made a ton of money though as I recall.

[ShawnW]

Are you talking about the 1983 kids movie WarGames?

Aye, but I woulden't call it a kids movie, a teen movie maybe. It was about hackers and the cold war. Starring Methew Broderick.

[xhouseboy]

Was matthew broderick in it?

if it's the same War Games as ED is referring to, it's simply a fairly good bit of escapism that also attempted to play on the message - War is Bad - No War is Good - toned down a kid's level.

ETA: question answered. We posted simultaneously.

[English Dave]

Aye, but I woulden't call it a kids movie, a teen movie maybe. It was about hackers and the cold war. Starring Methew Broderick.

Okay then. Now I know I'll give this a go.:)

Firstly as xhouse points out this was never intended to be a 'great' movie in the way I think you mean.

Then comes the problem of 'define great'?

Is a 'great' movie an Oscar winner?

Is a great movie one that emotionally moves the audience and leads to a change in their life choices or outlook?

Is a great movie one that excites and entertains the audience enough to warrant repeat viewings?

Is a great movie one that you have written and directed yourself so is great?

Given the cost of making movies and given the wide ranging peramaters of what can be defined as great, sometimes movies like WarGames get made.

Sometimes movies like Raging Bull, or Apoclypse Now, or Star Wars, or Casablanca or Meet The Parents or Crash or..........get made.

Some people think those are great.

[ShawnW]

Now 'Weird Science' is a movie with a simmilar feel and message from the same era, and it's FANTASTIC. What makes it so much better? Is it simply better writing? A better cast?

I think it's because Weird science throws curve balls. Not like 'Fight Club' or 'Sixth Sense', but it comes at you from angles you aren't expecting, principally in the dialogue and tertiary character interaction. It's clever and unique, even if the plot isn't especially.

Gotta love the popcorn scene. :)

EDIT- Oh wait, I'm thinking of 'Real Genius'. I always get those two mixed up.

[English Dave]

Yep that was a great movie. :flag:

[ShawnW]

Maybe a great movie is one that stays with you. One you'll remember fondly in 20 years.

[Goodwriterguy]

Maybe a great movie is one that stays with you. One you'll remember fondly in 20 years.
Now you're getting to it.

The AFI has a list of "the greatest 100 movies" and many of them satisfy your criteria, they remain memorable after years and decades, they "withstand the test of time," as it were.

But certainly the notion of innovation plays in the writing of a "great" movie, an artful dance to be sure. For many years, innovation focused on pushing back the edge between what was "taboo" and what was "acceptable." Nudity in a features was unheard of in the 30's, 40's and up to the mid-50's, then Bardot did "And God Created Woman." Exteme violence was unheard of until pictures like "Strawdogs" broke the mold. Homosexuality was taboo until "Brokeback Mountain." Lots of pictures have broken the mold, "Rosemary's Baby," "Bonnie and Clyde," "Easy Rider," "Midnight Cowboy."

Innovation is crucial but it cannot sacrifice the fundamentals of universal truth, the human condition, and human nature.

I think "great" movies are great because they reveal some new insight about humanity (human condition, human nature) and do so in a starkly compelling, fresh, unique, and powerful way that's simply undeniable ... and makes us feel, whether inspired, affirmed, heart broken, or joyously happy. Their insight connects viscerally and gives clear vision to what we already knew in some vague undefined way. "That's it!" we cry out, "that's it! Damn that is it!"

We have seen a little bit of truth about ourselves.

And it hits everyone the same, and strikes like lightning, or is lightning, whichever. The truth shall set you free.

A Eureka! moment. Damn, it feels good! It's unforgettable epiphany. Glorious revelation. "That's it!"

[Mayor of Moronia]

Greatness?

You must have a story that touches most people AND the subject has to be something you know and love.

[English Dave]

The success of that Eureka moment largely depends on whether you can hook up with like minded people willing to invest more money than you have.

[ShawnW]

The success of that Eureka moment largely depends on whether you can hook up with like minded people willing to invest more money than you have.

Or when Fox executive Raymond Bon Giovanni dies, and his last wish, as stated in his self writen obituary, is that your story become a movie with a $63,000,000 budget. That works too, but unfortunatly not all that often. I wish the man could have died more than once.

[Jerm]

What makes a movie great to one person may not to another. I have a friend who thinks great movies are OSCAR winning movies and nothing else. If it's the most boring movie you've seen in your life but the actor does a outstanding performance then it's great to him but not to me.

I think great movies like others have said are movies that "stick." Personally I loved Wargames, I thought it was a great movie back in the day because I could relate to the character. Not the hacking part of course and running from the government.

But the high school kid, using his 300 baud modem, reading through computer magazines and playing video games in the local arcade. We were all David Lightman's, it was the beginning of the personal computer era.

I thought Weird Science was a great movie also, so many funny lines that I still remember. Would I rank them up there with Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, probably not because they are not that recognizable to alot of people. Still doesn't mean they weren't great movies. Just means that alot of people didn't see it or couldn't relate. So I use the word great sparingly around people when talking movies and usually just keep it neutral with GOOD. ;)

[English Dave]

I wish the man could have died more than once.

If you are really a stoner then I wish you well.

If you aren't, then I wish you well.

[ShawnW]

If you are really a stoner then I wish you well.

If you aren't, then I wish you well.

Huh? I was joking. I wasn't really planning on digging the man up, reviving him, getting him to revise his obituary, and then clunking him and putting him back in the ground. It was a joke.

[English Dave]

Huh? I was joking. I wasn't really planning on digging the man up, reviving him, getting him to revise his obituary, and then clunking him and putting him back in the ground. It was a joke.

What are you trying to say? It was a joke? You mean your opening question was a joke? You have no idea what makes a good movie? You mean you sit there at your computer and spew out whatever you feel like with no appreciation for what I have to decide if I want to invest $50 million dollars into?

Get out.



Welcome to your first meeting. ;)

[ShawnW]

What are you trying to say? It was a joke? You mean your opening question was a joke? You hav>snip<me to your first meeting. ;)

I'm so confused my ears are bleeding.

I think it would all make sense if I were less sober right now...

I think what I'm thinking is that if someone dies then an unmakeable movie can be made, but the person has to die in the correct way, and be the correct person to be dying correctly. Unless I'm wrong, which I usually am, except when I'm not, which isn't entirely rare, which is why I say 'usually' rather than always, atleast in this particular context.

:P

[English Dave]

I'm so confused my ears are bleeding.

I think it would all make sense if I were less sober right now...

I think what I'm thinking is that if someone dies then an unmakeable movie can be made, but the person has to die in the correct way, and be the correct person to be dying correctly. Unless I'm wrong, which I usually am, except when I'm not, which isn't entirely rare, which is why I say 'usually' rather than always, atleast in this particular context.

:P

Shawn I gathered by your first and subsequent postings that you were less than 'sober'. But tomorrow, reading over this might be of some value.

[ShawnW]

Shawn I gathered by your first and subsequent postings that you were less than 'sober'. But tomorrow, reading over this might be of some value.

I'm sober. I'm at work right now. Oh wait... I did down an ECA stack on my lunch break... so maybe I'm a little jittery, but thats all.

[English Dave]

I'm sober. I'm at work right now. Oh wait... I did down an ECA stack on my lunch break... so maybe I'm a little jittery, but thats all.

I've got nothing.

[ShawnW]

I've got nothing.

I could hook you up when I get off work. How much you want?

[English Dave]

No comment on the advice of my legal reps Dewey, Screwem & Howe.

[ShawnW]

No comment on the advice of my legal reps Dewey, Screwem & Howe.

Oh yeah. I smoked some chronic with those guys at the Blue Loon last saturday. What's up with Howe man? That guy was wasted. You know if he made it home alright?

Screwem is a dog though man. That guy got laid up in the balcony TWICE!

I only met Dewey for the first time that night. Is he gay? He comes off as gay, not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Goodwriterguy]

The success of that Eureka moment largely depends on whether you can hook up with like minded people willing to invest more money than you have.
This goes without saying, Dave.

At some point all great movies are financed, usually by people who have much more financial clout in their hands than a mere writer. How many great sceenplays are there that never got produced? I have a dozen of them myself, not counting my own. There are probably thousands more.

Usualy an agent brings it to the guy with the moolah, him and some attorney.

Me, I'm a stay at home dad. ;)

[Goodwriterguy]

What makes a movie great to one person may not to another.
Well, not quite, at least in general. Few movies can attain the status of "greatness" among public opinion that don't touch nearly everyone who sees them.

Everyone who sees the Mona Lisa understands immediately that it is great art. Everyone who hears Ravel's "Bolero" the first time understands immediately that it is great music. Everyone who sees Circe de Soliel the first time understands that it is great performance art. Everyone. Exceptions are those with IQ's of less than 88.


I have a friend who thinks great movies are OSCAR winning movies and nothing else. If it's the most boring movie you've seen in your life but the actor does a outstanding performance then it's great to him but not to me.
Your friend's IQ is less than 88.

I suspect your's is much, much higher.


I think great movies like others have said are movies that "stick." Personally I loved Wargames, I thought it was a great movie back in the day because I could relate to the character. Not the hacking part of course and running from the government.

But the high school kid, using his 300 baud modem, reading through computer magazines and playing video games in the local arcade. We were all David Lightman's, it was the beginning of the personal computer era.

I thought Weird Science was a great movie also, so many funny lines that I still remember. Would I rank them up there with Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, probably not because they are not that recognizable to alot of people. Still doesn't mean they weren't great movies. Just means that alot of people didn't see it or couldn't relate. So I use the word great sparingly around people when talking movies and usually just keep it neutral with GOOD. ;)
The adjective "great" is overused, let's face it.

We can all list the movies we've seen that we consider to be above average or great or incredible or awesome or whatever word we wish to use to descibe them in the overall. But the lists we make won't all be the same ... because none of us sees every movie that's made or has been made in the past and our likes and dislikes aren't the same, and tastes change over time. Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" makes nearly all top 100 all time great movie lists; ditto his "Viva Zapata!" One starred Hank Fonda, a legendary actor, the other Marlon Brando, in his prime, and he became super-legendary. But the stories are classics and the movies were hits when they were in release, big hits. And for all the right reasons, they were great.

But today, if you made a 14-year old kid watch either of those pictures, they'd hate them and say they were junk, probably. Well, it has become junk of a sorts, but that doesn't mean it wasn't great in its day and really across all the generations since. "Gone With the Wind," whatta freakin' title! Sounds like Bob Dylan. I see GWTW airing on cable all the time, to this day, 67 years later. Now that's a great movie.

All we can do is applaud them and not try to write them over again, they're history. "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" is another in this class, with Humphrey Bogart. Incredible movie. Classic story of greed. Bogart at his best.

Every movie era produces its great stuff. In time, they become museum pieces, fodder for the galleria, and afficianados, and students, who study them. Can't end this without mentioning "Casablanca," also with Bogie. It's so classic Bob McKee uses it in his seminar as the instructional film.

It can be fun and entertaining to go back through the classics and see some of them again, or for the first time. Their story crafting is high class. This may be especailly true for writers and actors.

We have to write the movies that will be considered great by those who follow, our kids and their kids. In the past several years there have been several to many pictures that wll hold up over time and hang onto their status as great or classic movies, "Titanic," "Saving Private Ryan," "Dead Man Walking," "Shawshank Redemption," "Forrest Gump," "LOTR." I can't name them all, but they seem to keep streaming out.

Friend of mine used to say, "The cream rises to the top."

Oscars are only generally relevant.

Most "great movies" enjoyed big box office, "smash hits," as it were. Most but not all. The top 100 lists you see always carry some pics that made little money, they get seleted for their art, not their box office (which is afterall a reflection of popularity).

It's like the guy said about porno, "I can't describe it but I know it when I see it." ;)

[WritingFool]

shawn --- keep acting like a sherm head and some of these nice and talented people might not want to listen when you have serious questions.

[Mac H.]

Everyone who sees the Mona Lisa understands immediately that it is great art.Not I.

Seriously - I look at a pile of 16th Century Oil paintings and I can't tell which ones are 'great' compared to the rest of them.

Sure, I can recognise the 'courtesan in the gauze veil' as a famous painting, and even name it, but if I wasn't TOLD it was famous, I certainly wouldn't recognise that it is a greater art compared to many others of that era.

You've now met the lowest common denominator.

Mac.

[Goodwriterguy]

Not I.

Seriously - I look at a pile of 16th Century Oil paintings and I can't tell which ones are 'great' compared to the rest of them.

Sure, I can recognise the 'courtesan in the gauze veil' as a famous painting, and even name it, but if I wasn't TOLD it was famous, I certainly wouldn't recognise that it is a greater art compared to many others of that era.

You've now met the lowest common denominator.

Mac.
Of course I was speaking generally, but by "sees" I meant to actually stand in front of the painting, which I believe if you did, you'd recognize it for what it is.

Then again ...

:Shrug: