English as a foreign (writing) language

[Penguin Queen]

No, not a grammar thread. ;)

I'm German, but I write in English (and in German). I know this not to be as rare as a lot of poeple think it is. I have an English friend of Welsh extraction who learnt Welsh when in her forties and is now writing short stories in Welsh. And of course, there have been quite a number of very well-known writers over the years writing in an adopted language: Joseph Conrad (Polish, wrote in English), Viktor Nabokov (Russian, ditto); Oscar Wilde (Irish, wrote Salomé in French), Eugene Ionesco (Romanian, wrote in French), Samuel Beckett (Irish, wrote in French); Assia Djebar (Algerian, writes in French). And doubtlessly scores of others.

Sometimes it gets messy in my head: for example when I have a particularly beautiful or useful phrase that expresses exactly what I want -- only it's in the wrong language. I think in English most of the time, I have been living in London for eight years and almost speak no German any more (although I still write radio scripts in German for a living).

Karl Marx did not exactly produce literature, but I saw a facsimile copy of his longhand MS of Das Kapital in the British Library once, & it was written pretty much as my notes / outlines for stories are written: a sentence starts in German, then switches into English half-way through.

I have been wondering how many poeple on here write in English as a foreign, ie. acquired language (not grown up biligually, but learnt it in school, for example). And what you think the pros and cons are of having two (or more) languages to get tangled up in.

[DamaNegra]

I am Mexican-born, with Spanish as my first language. I learned English at school (went to a private school run by people from the US) and, well, I sometimes write in English either out of boredom, pure randomness or just feel like it. I also know a little French and have written a couple of poems in it just to practice.

The pros/cons depend on what you want to write. There are some specific ideas that are best expressed in one language, and there are some ideas that can't be expressed in certain languages. You would do well to go over to this thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34133&highlight=languages) (partly lost), which looks more closely at different languages.

The advantages of knowing more than one language and using it are that you usually have a broader view of the world, you know more words and more ways of expressing more thoughts. As a result, you have more thoughts than people who can't express certain thoughts.

Er... am I confusing you?

[Bamponang]

I'm Motswana ( same tribe as in Botswana, but based in SA) and I'm used to easing from one langauage/culture to another without thinking much about it.

So when I'm in my English-speaking mode Setswana does not interfere. I do have to work hard to retain fluency in my language because I use it so little (among immediate family mostly, because the majority of Black South Africans don't speak Setswana either.)

The mistake I consistently make in my writing/speech is mix up he/she pronouns. Setswana does not have them. Regardless gender, we use the pronoun [o].

So I have to check my copy for interchanged pronouns to make sure the men remain men throughout:-)

I do occassionally get frustrated when a Setswana phrase would express what I want to say more easily/poetically and the meaning is lost in the translation and I have to stick to good old English. But there are moments when I can translate a concept to English

The advantage of being a multilingual writer is that I have more markets to sell to.

[maestrowork]

I am Chinese and became a US citizen in 1997. My first published novel is in English (not translated).

To me, there's no other way; you just have to learn the language and absorb it and live it and speak it and use it... It doesn't mean you have to be perfect. There is a lot of room for improvement -- even for English speakers. But you really do have to get down to it to get the nuances, etc.

Otherwise, if English really is difficult, it might a good idea to write in your native language, then have it translated (or publish it in your native language, then sell the English right).

To pros of being bilingual: you get to learn different things about how people communicate. It enriches my stories in that I have characters that speak either languages, and I am able to get it right. E.g. People whose first language isn't English speak express themselves differently, or they'd use more idioms/slangs/cliches that are normally taught in ESL schools. Also, being bilingual/bicultural makes it fun to mix and match...

The cons: it's more difficult to master English if your first language is significantly different and you still use the first language on a regular basis. If you find yourself having to translate mentally from one language to another, it would be difficult to write in either language well. After being in the US for so many years, for example, I don't "translate" anymore. When I speak and write in English, I think in English. When I speak and write in Chinese, I think in Chinese. Many people in China don't know I speak fluent English, and many people here don't realize English is my second language. It takes years of being absorbed in the culture and the language to get it right, though...

[DamaNegra]

Yeah, I usually think in English when I want to express myself in English. It's so much easier this way. Of course, sometimes I unconsciously think in English when I'm not in the need for speaking English.

Which brings the question... in what language do you dream in?

[Penguin Queen]

There's some really interesting stuff about language & brains in the other thread you linked to, Dama Negra, gracias for that.

<..:>
Which brings the question... in what language do you dream in?

That one's really interesting. I'd lived in London for several years (without speaking, althouhg still writing in, German on a regular basis) , & had been writing in English for several years, before I had my first dream in English.
Still dream at least 50% in German.
But after six months in Buenos Aires (again, without speaking either English or German, but writing in both), recently had my first dream in Spanish. I was very chuffed. I'm in love with the Spanish language; speak fluent-but-incorrect Spanish. I woudl love to be able to write in Spanish one day, but thats probably fifteen to twenty years away.

Interesting point about problems with grammar, Bamponang.
In German, the use of the Perfect and Imperfect tenses is reverse to what it is in English (hm, that's come out rather convoluted), & I also find I have to go over a manuscript after writing to make sure I get them all right.

Another thing I find interesting is that I find it much easier to write fiction in English than in German, because English has such a beautifully flexible & supple structure. German is much more exact (I prefer writing nonfiction in German) but rather unwieldy.
Then again, the sort of stuff I write & love to read is mostly written by English speakers, not in German. I wonder how much that has to do with it. I read almost exclusively in English. Say, 85 % English, 10 % German, 5 % Spanish.

What language(s) do you read in, & do you find that to influence the language you write in?

[MarkN]

Which brings the question... in what language do you dream in?

English is my first language, but I've also studied French and (military) Arabic. I remember I once dreamt I was in Switzerland for some reason, and everyone I met was speaking German, and I was asking everyone "Sprechen Sie französisch?" Here I was a French major, never took German, and I'm dreaming in German and asking people if they speak French. :Wha:

I learned Arabic when I was in the Army, and found an interesting thing: for about 2 years afterwards, whenever I tried to speak French, I could still speak fluently, except that I would invariably substitute Arabic prepositions without meaning to. :Wha: :Wha:

Oh well, I love languages anyway. I speak several: English, French, Arabic, Pascal, Perl, C, BASIC... ;)

[helga]

No, not a grammar thread. ;)

I'm German, but I write in English (and in German). I know this not to be as rare as a lot of poeple think it is. I have an English friend of Welsh extraction who learnt Welsh when in her forties and is now writing short stories in Welsh. And of course, there have been quite a number of very well-known writers over the years writing in an adopted language: Joseph Conrad (Polish, wrote in English), Viktor Nabokov (Russian, ditto); Oscar Wilde (Irish, wrote Salomé in French), Eugene Ionesco (Romanian, wrote in French), Samuel Beckett (Irish, wrote in French); Assia Djebar (Algerian, writes in French). And doubtlessly scores of others.

Sometimes it gets messy in my head: for example when I have a particularly beautiful or useful phrase that expresses exactly what I want -- only it's in the wrong language. I think in English most of the time, I have been living in London for eight years and almost speak no German any more (although I still write radio scripts in German for a living).

Karl Marx did not exactly produce literature, but I saw a facsimile copy of his longhand MS of Das Kapital in the British Library once, & it was written pretty much as my notes / outlines for stories are written: a sentence starts in German, then switches into English half-way through.

I have been wondering how many poeple on here write in English as a foreign, ie. acquired language (not grown up biligually, but learnt it in school, for example). And what you think the pros and cons are of having two (or more) languages to get tangled up in.

Hi, at last I feel brave enough to post here. The matter is, English is my second language and I am very much afraid that I might make mistakes (esp. if the forum is for WRITERS!)
Thanks for starting this thread. Now I can thank you all for providing loads of information (I've been lurking for months).
So my main problem is, I'm not brave enough to send my queries/synopsis etc. because I'm not sure if they're written in 'proper English'.

[maestrowork]

So my main problem is, I'm not brave enough to send my queries/synopsis etc. because I'm not sure if they're written in 'proper English'.

Do you know anyone who can help check your grammar, etc.? You can also post your queries/synopsis on Share Your Work if you need help.

[Bamponang]

What language(s) do you read in, & do you find that to influence the language you write in?

For pleasure, 99% of what I read is in English. One of the reasons is that there are so few books published in Setswana here in SA. (for a number of reasons I won't go into now)

Yes it does influence the language I write in. It has helped refine my understanding of English and to appreciate its nuances.

However, I always strive to bring the Setswana culture and norms into my fiction, while also making it contemporary. It is only natural that I do that, I think.

[janetbellinger]

Just remember that it is easy to correct your improper English. It is not so easy to correct a lack of originality that many English as a first language people possess (myself included.) You will have insights that are far more valuable than perfect grammar, which as Maestrowork pointed out can be easily fixed. I wish that English was not my first language. I might have more to offer then.

[Snitchcat]

Like Maestrowork, I'm Chinese, but lived in the UK.

Despite appearances, my first language isn't English; it's Chinese. However, I write in English (and sometimes in Chinese), but use Chinese in daily communications. OTOH, I read written materials in a number of languages. And, for me, language and culture are inseparable.

The wonderful thing about knowing a number of languages/cultures is the influence they have on everything related to worldbuilding, especially when such influence is shown through characters. I find there's a depth in the story that doesn't seem to be present in single-language stories.

I usually think in the language I'm using, although other languages may slip in. It really depends on which language has the phrase/vocabulary I need to use.

Edit:
The language I think in doesn't so much influence how I write as gives me the necessary POVs I need.

As far as dreaming is concerned: predominantly English. (^_^)


P.S. If this post is incoherent, I apologise; it's still early. :P

[gwendy85]

Wow. I can totally relate to this thread. I live in the Philippines, and English is only a second language. I think in English and write in English, and am better able to express myself through English (though I do harbor some guilt over that. But what can most expect? The Filipino language *Tagalog* is not my first language, but a third, since my first language or rather, dialect, is Cebuano, and even that has many varieties.

Just want to add in my input :)

[aruna]

Penquin Queen, I'm the reverse. English is my first language. I learnt French in school and can speak it tolerably, and also Spanish - which I was once fluent in but have not used for 30 years. I get to use French occasionally.
But I lived in Germany for many decades and German became my "first" language for a while. I was thinking and dreaming in German, and reading as well - for years, I only read German books, even ones that were written in English.
I love knowing several languages. It opens you up to so many nuances of thinking. But being practically bi-lingial in German-English has some problems. Sometimes I can't remember if a word is English or German, and I use the German word by mistake - they often sound very similar. I remember once trying to figure out if "fleck" was English or German. And in my latest novel, my crit reader more than once commented - "I don't know this word." It was a German word.
I agree that German doesn't work so well for fiction It sounds clumsy and ugly. Two of my novels were translated inteo German and though it was well done it just doesn't feel right to hear my characters - Guyanese and Indian - speaking German. Especially when they use slang.

[Penguin Queen]

Wow, Aruna, we're almost mirror-reverse of each other! How weird is that? :tongue

[expatbrat]

I just wanted to say: ไนไม นไ ไนกำพ ดีสดนพ นี น ฟอำ หนทฟื สนอำสั สฟืเฟเห ฟืก ไฟห นด แนททีรแฟะรืเ นีพหำสดใ ฌนนก ดนพ นีใ ณ พำฟสสั นยำ ระ ฟสส เนห เพฟะม พำฟสสั พำฟสสั เพฟะใ "สสม ฟะห ฟสส ณ ฟอำ น หฟัใ นยำ ระ สยห

[expatbrat]

I really don't get to use the thai keys on my computer nearly enough. ณด ณ ฟก นะพำก น ฟแฟสสั สำฟพื ฟรม รืหะฟก นด รืเ หีกแ ฟ หสยฟแ ยนน ท พ้ฟยห ณ ไนสก ไนห ท ฟทนพำม ไ ไน นไหใ ใ

And just so you know - I have no idea what I just wrote. As most Thais speak english I have been too slack to learn. I spent ages learning Chinese and never get to use it any more (I miss it, Chinese is a super cool language), and now I can't be stuffed learning a language only spoken by 60 million people, many of who speak a language I already know.

[expatbrat]

Living in China we all stuck cool chinese words in our general conversations. Mar Fung is a brilliant word that the chinese had to invent cause their culture is simply full of marfung. It means all of these things: not worth it, too much effort, too much trouble, more work than it is worth, it's marfung.

When speaking with my chinese staff, often their understanding of English was much better than their abilty to speak it, mine was reverse. So we would have these conversations where I would speak English and they would speak Chinese and we could understand each other perfectly... would have looked fantastic to anyone watching.

Sorry my posts are a little off topic... I'm pregnant, excited, and really not concentrating very well right now.

[Penguin Queen]

I love marfung. Will incorporate it into my vocab immediately! :D

And what do you mean,
only spoken by 60 million people ?
:Shrug:

Hey. I learnt Welsh, which is spoken by half a million poeple. And it got me all the way to Patagonia.

[Penguin Queen]

-having automatically translated some saying/phrase from Finnish to English in my head and then finding out it doesn't work

I do that a lot. I'm at a point now where I often don't know whether the origin of a saying or idiomatic expression is actually English or German.
I was once complimented by an actor who read out parts of a radio script I had written in German, for my original use of the language. Turned out I had used a number of English sayings/expressions & translated them straight into German without realising. http://boards.gingerbeer.co.uk/Smileys/classic/embarrassed.gif Ooops.


I once posted a text excerpt in a British writers' community, and none there guessed I wasn't a native speaker. That was a huge relief and provided much needed encouragement.:)

Excellent! :)