Looking for a good recomendation

WyattEarp · Jul 11, 2013

I recently attended the Algonkian Conference in NYC and got a submission request from two publishers after my pitch. It was a great experience and I do recommend it by the way.

I met some great people and made some unbelievable contacts, but where I fell short is finding a good editor as I think my manuscript needs a professional edit before submission. A lot of the ones that I was directed to were not quite the right fit. One said she did more of a general overview and made suggestions (not what I want) and some of the others just didn't seem right for my book.

The book is a dark comedy, commercial fiction. I don't want to sound chauvinistic but the reality is, it is kind of male centric. That is (more-so) the audience it is directed towards so I would like a male voice to to read/edit. Most of the editors I have found are female...I'm not saying a woman wouldn't do a good job, just that a guy might relate to the work a little better.

So, I need a good editor. Someone who might have written or reviewed this kind of dark comedy and preferably a guy. Hope you guys can help.

C

Old Hack · Jul 11, 2013

Wyatt, please don't make duplicate posts here: AW is big enough already, and if we allow duplicates it'll collapse under its own weight.

I've merged your two threads into this one, and have deleted your second post.

WyattEarp said:
I recently attended the Algonkian Conference in NYC and got a submission request from two publishers after my pitch. It was a great experience and I do recommend it by the way.

This Algonkian Conference? Which is related to the New York Writers Workshop and the NYC Pitch and Shop?

I'm glad your work got a good response there but next time you might want to look for a more reputable conference to spend your money on.

I met some great people and made some unbelievable contacts, but where I fell short is finding a good editor as I think my manuscript needs a professional edit before submission. A lot of the ones that I was directed to were not quite the right fit. One said she did more of a general overview and made suggestions (not what I want) and some of the others just didn't seem right for my book.

Were you told by the conference organisers that you should pay for an edit? It's not standard for writers to do this: if an agent takes you on and thinks your book needs work prior to submission they'll usually do this with you, at no cost to you.

You can spend your money on editing if you like but good editors are hard to find, and they're expensive too: a cheap editor isn't worth paying for, and you run the risk of them making your book less publishable instead of more publishable.

The book is a dark comedy, commercial fiction. I don't want to sound chauvinistic but the reality is, it is kind of male centric. That is (more-so) the audience it is directed towards so I would like a male voice to to read/edit. Most of the editors I have found are female...I'm not saying a woman wouldn't do a good job, just that a guy might relate to the work a little better.

You've just insulted several of our members who routinely edit books with male protagonists, and/or books intended for a male-dominated audience.

And you might not want to sound chauvinistic, but you do.

So, I need a good editor. Someone who might have written or reviewed this kind of dark comedy and preferably a guy. Hope you guys can help.

C

Writing or reviewing books is no preparation for editing them. The skills are completely different.

While you wait for the right man to come along and rescue you from your ivory tower, we girls will sit in the corner reading our pink fluffy books which other girls have edited and we won't even try to understand our menfolk. They might as well speak a different language to us. Gears and winches and ratchets and stuff: who cares? Give me kittens any day!

WyattEarp · Jul 11, 2013

Old Hack said:
Wyatt, please don't make duplicate posts here: AW is big enough already, and if we allow duplicates it'll collapse under its own weight.

I've merged your two threads into this one, and have deleted your second post.

Thanks, I appreciate the effort.

This Algonkian Conference? Which is related to the New York Writers Workshop and the NYC Pitch and Shop?

I'm glad your work got a good response there but next time you might want to look for a more reputable conference to spend your money on.

And I appreciate your benign attempt to criticize my choices. The fact is, there were very qualified people, respected in the publishing industry and I met some wonderful people who will be life long friends. I was requested by Penguin and Berkley and I got further in five days than I have in months of sending blind queries and listening to people like yourself (not necessarily people at the water cooler).

Were you told by the conference organisers that you should pay for an edit? It's not standard for writers to do this: if an agent takes you on and thinks your book needs work prior to submission they'll usually do this with you, at no cost to you.

You can spend your money on editing if you like but good editors are hard to find, and they're expensive too: a cheap editor isn't worth paying for, and you run the risk of them making your book less publishable instead of more publishable.

Once again, thanks for your opinion. Not knowing your background I think I'll fall to the opinion of the documented professionals I met in NYC. The idea is to get the best product to the publisher and look for constructive opinions from a well regarded editor before doing so. In short, this will give my manuscript a better chance of getting to the next step provided I choose my editor carefully. Hence, my opinion that my work might need a male voice to look at at. Also, determining for myself what is constructive and what is damaging for my work is no different than taking some things I read here with a grain of salt. This also speaks to the reason I need to find an editor that I believe will work well with me.

I was not directed towards an editor and none were suggested to me in NYC. That's why I'm looking.

You've just insulted several of our members who routinely edit books with male protagonists, and/or books intended for a male-dominated audience.

And you might not want to sound chauvinistic, but you do.

First of all, I think you did more to upset the "members who routinely edit books" by suggesting their work is not worth spending money on. Secondly, as a general rule (general mind you) men tend to have different tastes than women in most areas. Would it be chauvinistic to suggest that you might wear a dress to a dinner party you are attending? Or would you pick up your clothes at The Men's Wearhouse? Your comment is idiotic and speaks to your natural state as a angry person who finds fault in the opinions and actions of others for no other reason than to try and feel better about yourself.

Writing or reviewing books is no preparation for editing them. The skills are completely different.

While you wait for the right man to come along and rescue you from your ivory tower, we girls will sit in the corner reading our pink fluffy books which other girls have edited and we won't even try to understand our menfolk. They might as well speak a different language to us. Gears and winches and ratchets and stuff: who cares? Give me kittens any day!

Once again, your generalizations regarding my opinion towards women in is insulting. Moreover, I have been on this board long enough to understand the importance of having thick skin and taking the comments for there constructive direction and let the rest fall away, but you seem to have a different motive all together. Your reply is not constructive or in any way well intended. You are a bitter person and I really have no time for you or this board of you are indeed an individual who has been charged with monitoring this forum. Please feel free to suspend/remove me. I have no time for people like yourself. I have balled up in anger (initially) at a lot of things people have said to me here. But have always found a thread of well meaning helpfulness. You have nothing. Adios.

cornflake · Jul 11, 2013

Oh my.

Maybe it's not my place to comment at all, but just because I've seen this type of thing a few times - for others who may be reading this thread -

I was requested by Penguin and Berkley and I got further in five days than I have in months of sending blind queries and listening to people like yourself (not necessarily people at the water cooler).

Dude, who do you think you're sending those queries to?

Someone else posted wondering if someone could come on AW claiming to be an editor, publisher, agent or what have you, and get away with it, or if there was a verification process.

Most of the editors, agents, and people in publishing who are on here, I'd wager, do not advertise that fact.

By the way, notice Old Hack did not "criticize [your] choices," but provided links to the threads discussing the conference so that you could find out what it was for yourself. Going off personally about someone being 'bitter' and wanting to 'feel better' isn't exactly lacking in chauvinism either, just btw.

WyattEarp · Jul 11, 2013

cornflake said:
Oh my.

Maybe it's not my place to comment at all, but just because I've seen this type of thing a few times - for others who may be reading this thread -

Dude, who do you think you're sending those queries to?

Someone else posted wondering if someone could come on AW claiming to be an editor, publisher, agent or what have you, and get away with it, or if there was a verification process.

Most of the editors, agents, and people in publishing who are on here, I'd wager, do not advertise that fact.

By the way, notice Old Hack did not "criticize [your] choices," but provided links to the threads discussing the conference so that you could find out what it was for yourself. Going off personally about someone being 'bitter' and wanting to 'feel better' isn't exactly lacking in chauvinism either, just btw.

I wasn't asked to send queries, I was asked to send the full manuscript to acquisition editors who I met in person. And, I was rejected by an agent who was at the conference who now wants to rep me.

I was at the conference, I can make my own opinion now although I did read some of those threads before I attended.

What the heck does "bitter" and wanting to "feel better" have to do with chauvinism?

Maryn · Jul 11, 2013

WyattEarp, you have failed to follow the lone rule of AbsoluteWrite: Respect Your Fellow Writer. You can disagree, vigorously, but you cannot insult other members.

Maryn, displeased

WyattEarp · Jul 11, 2013

Maryn said:
WyattEarp, you have failed to follow the lone rule of AbsoluteWrite: Respect Your Fellow Writer. You can disagree, vigorously, but you cannot insult other members.

Maryn, displeased

Oh, I'm sorry...did you miss the part where she called me a chauvinist?

"While you wait for the right man to come along and rescue you from your ivory tower, we girls will sit in the corner reading our pink fluffy books which other girls have edited and we won't even try to understand our menfolk. They might as well speak a different language to us. Gears and winches and ratchets and stuff: who cares? Give me kittens any day!"

It seems that anything that you and your fellow moderators say (no matter how derogatory) is constructive. How is the passage above constructive? I have no idea...

Anything I say (on the other hand) is disrespectful.

I RESPECTFULLY asked for some help and, as I had read in other threads, made a point to say exactly what I was looking for in an editor. And then made the unforgivable mistake of saying a preferred a man. Then, I was insulted.

I think you should do a little searching on what it means to be insulted. Just because it comes out of your (her) mouth, doesn't mean it isn't ugly.

In another instance, here is the right and wrong way to approach someone.

O.K.: Glad you had a good response, hope you had a chance to read some of the threads here and get all the opinions as we have had a lot of people here attend the conference you spoke of.

Rude: I'm glad your work got a good response there but next time you might want to look for a more reputable conference to spend your money on.

BTW, there are just as many people who had a good experience at Algonkian as did not in her attached thread.

Haggis · Jul 11, 2013

WyattEarp said:
I RESPECTFULLY asked for some help and, as I had read in other threads, made a point to say exactly what I was looking for in an editor. And then made the unforgivable mistake of saying a preferred a man. Then, I was insulted.

SRSLY, dude. Lots of folks prefer men. It's okay. There's no shame in that. Frankly, it's good to get it out in the open. We're all wired the way we're wired, you know?

Old Hack · Jul 12, 2013

WyattEarp said:
Thanks, I appreciate the effort.

You're welcome.

And I appreciate your benign attempt to criticize my choices. The fact is, there were very qualified people, respected in the publishing industry and I met some wonderful people who will be life long friends. I was requested by Penguin and Berkley and I got further in five days than I have in months of sending blind queries and listening to people like yourself (not necessarily people at the water cooler).

I wasn't attempting to "criticize [your] choices": I was directing you towards a little more information about that event. I'm glad that your experience of the event was positive: but I suspect that if you went to a more reputable conference you might well meet many more publishing professionals, and have even better results.

Once again, thanks for your opinion. Not knowing your background I think I'll fall to the opinion of the documented professionals I met in NYC.

Let me introduce myself: I'm one of those "documented professionals" you refer to (although we haven't met). I've worked in publishing for around thirty years, have had over thirty books of my own published, and have spoken at quite a few writing and publishing conferences and workshops. In fact, I was at one of those conferences yesterday and will shortly be returning there.

The idea is to get the best product to the publisher and look for constructive opinions from a well regarded editor before doing so. In short, this will give my manuscript a better chance of getting to the next step provided I choose my editor carefully.

I've encountered many writers who think they need to get their work edited prior to submission. It's not necessarily wrong: but it is something you have to think about very carefully before you go ahead because it can count against you, in all sorts of ways (there are plenty of threads here where this is discussed, so I'll not clutter your thread up with it now). It's also very expensive to get your book edited well and you are very unlikely to recoup this cost, so do please consider this very carefully.

Hence, my opinion that my work might need a male voice to look at at.

You really don't need to find a male editor. You need to find a good editor who understands your book and your aims for it. That's far more important.

Also, determining for myself what is constructive and what is damaging for my work is no different than taking some things I read here with a grain of salt.

What you decide is entirely up to you, of course. But you recognised that you were struggling to find an editor, so you asked for help here: if you disagree with the advice given that's also up to you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad advice.

This also speaks to the reason I need to find an editor that I believe will work well with me.

I agree absolutely that if you were to find someone to edit your book it would be important that they worked well with you: this is essential. But what isn't essential is that your editor should be of any particular gender, and while I can appreciate why you have this preference I feel very strongly that you're wrong on this point. I've met hundreds of editors over the course of my career, and their genders have no effect on the quality, depth and insight which they display in their work.

I was not directed towards an editor and none were suggested to me in NYC. That's why I'm looking.

I'm very glad to hear that. There's a lot of room for abuse there.

First of all, I think you did more to upset the "members who routinely edit books" by suggesting their work is not worth spending money on.

I didn't say that: you're either putting words into my mouth, or you're misinterpreting the things I have said. Neither of those are acceptable.

My point was that it's not necessary to pay to have your books edited prior to submission; and that doing so might well end up counting against you.

Secondly, as a general rule (general mind you) men tend to have different tastes than women in most areas.

That has very little to do with whether or not a female editor could make a good job of editing your book.

Would it be chauvinistic to suggest that you might wear a dress to a dinner party you are attending? Or would you pick up your clothes at The Men's Wearhouse?

I don't need anyone else to suggest what I might like to wear when I go out, it's something I can work out for myself. I went to a formal event last night, at the aforementioned writers' convention, and yep, I wore trousers. I looked fabulous.

Your comment is idiotic and speaks to your natural state as a angry person who finds fault in the opinions and actions of others for no other reason than to try and feel better about yourself.

Yep, that'll be me. Ha!

As has already been pointed out to you, you're in danger of breaking AW's one rule: respect your fellow writer. Please be careful. I don't want to see you get banned because you misunderstood the tone of my earlier comment.

Once again, your generalizations regarding my opinion towards women in is insulting. Moreover, I have been on this board long enough to understand the importance of having thick skin and taking the comments for there constructive direction and let the rest fall away, but you seem to have a different motive all together. Your reply is not constructive or in any way well intended. You are a bitter person and I really have no time for you or this board of you are indeed an individual who has been charged with monitoring this forum. Please feel free to suspend/remove me. I have no time for people like yourself. I have balled up in anger (initially) at a lot of things people have said to me here. But have always found a thread of well meaning helpfulness. You have nothing. Adios.

If you had been on this board long enough to understand its dynamics then you would also be able to understand my intent in my previous comment here. And yet you missed it by a country mile.

Also, if you had been here long enough to understand its dynamics you would know that we don't delete accounts.

WyattEarp said:
Oh, I'm sorry...did you miss the part where she called me a chauvinist?

I did not call you a chauvinist. You wrote,

I don't want to sound chauvinistic

to which I replied,

you might not want to sound chauvinistic, but you do.

That's not calling you a chauvinist: it's pointing out that you've failed in your intentions.

"While you wait for the right man to come along and rescue you from your ivory tower, we girls will sit in the corner reading our pink fluffy books which other girls have edited and we won't even try to understand our menfolk. They might as well speak a different language to us. Gears and winches and ratchets and stuff: who cares? Give me kittens any day!"

Click to expand...

It seems that anything that you and your fellow moderators say (no matter how derogatory) is constructive. How is the passage above constructive? I have no idea...

You've spotted, then, that the part of my comment quoted above is ridiculous? Then it was constructive. You've seen how silly it is to assign stereotypical preferences and abilities to people simply because of their gender.

Anything I say (on the other hand) is disrespectful.

Where you went wrong was in calling me names, and in making negative comments about who I am, how I feel, and what my motives are in posting here.

If you'd said those things to anyone else I'd have given you a time-out for them: they were entirely inappropriate. Watch your step.

It really helps if we try to assume good intentions, even if we are given advice we really don't want to hear. I know it can be hard: but try it. It might make a difference, you know?

I RESPECTFULLY asked for some help and, as I had read in other threads, made a point to say exactly what I was looking for in an editor. And then made the unforgivable mistake of saying a preferred a man. Then, I was insulted.

I didn't intend to insult you. You, however, clearly did intend to insult me. How constructive was that?

BTW, there are just as many people who had a good experience at Algonkian as did not in her attached thread.

That still doesn't mean it's a good conference to attend. For example, the thread isn't a fair cross-section of all of the conference's attendees; you're not allowing for the sockpuppets who might or might not have contributed to the threads I linked to; and it doesn't address the central issue of whether pitching conferences are worth attending in the first place; nor does it consider if other conferences might be more helpful overall.

It's easy to make standalone claims like yours; it takes a bit more work and a lot more knowledge and research to consider the bigger picture. Please be careful.

tesla · Jul 12, 2013

I am someone who worked with a freelance editor before I got my agent and sold my novel. I do think it helped clean my MS up and I learned a lot from it, but I don't think it's the reason I got representation or a book deal. I still don't regret it, because like I said, I learned a ton. However, this editor is a family member and charged me in pie and favors. If I had had to pay her cash instead of delicious pie, it would've been thousands of dollars and that wouldn't have been feasible for me. I also knew the high quality of her edits and the slant of her editorial mind going into it, because I'd seen her work on stuff my entire life. Also, even with an extensive edit (both line and developmental) with the freelance editor and multiple comments from industry pro's about how clean the MS was, I still spent two months revising with my very editorial agent before we went on sub and I am incredibly grateful for that revision, because once again, I learned a ton.

I'm curious--if you have an offer of representation, then why are you looking for an editor? Usually an agent will want to work with you to get the book ready for submission. Have you accepted this offer? Or mentioned to this agent you're looking for an outside editor?

I really don't understand this insistence you must have a male editor. And even if you don't mean to be chauvinistic, you are kind of coming off as that by trying to apply stereotypical gender roles to men and women's reading tastes. And you're possibly denying yourself the opportunity to work with some AMAZING editors because of what's between their legs and that's just bizarre and basically shooting yourself in the foot. Judge people based on the merit of their work, not their genitals.

You do realize that it's very possible if you sell this book, it might be acquired by a female editor? Maybe it's not the case in adult books, but I know in YA, a majority of editors and agents are women. Do you plan on directing your agent to only submit to male editors? Or not taking a deal if the editor is a woman?

regdog · Jul 12, 2013

My story is told from my MC's POV and she's a dog. And oddly enough, my book was published without needing a dog to edit it.

Looking for a good recomendation

WyattEarp

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

WyattEarp

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

WyattEarp

Maryn

At Sea

WyattEarp

Haggis

Evil, undead Chihuahua

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

tesla

regdog

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