NEPAT Overflow

[Gravity]

Kinda interesting to read old H.B.'s posts (back when he was PA's golden boy, and not a pariah who was given the left foot of fellowship from Willem and Crew, when his "useful idiot" stage had run its course). It was a tad bit eerie, truth be told. Like watching old newsreels of Der Fuhrer whipping the masses, telling them his Third Reich was the wave of tomorrow.

Children, it's really a pointed lesson to anyone who thinks PA hung the moon.

Just ask H.B. He'll tell you all about it.

[JennaGlatzer]

Just wanted to preserve my Amazon review here:

Yes, this is a tearjerking book, though not for the reason the author may have intended.

I bought this book from Amazon. Although it is a fast read (plenty of padding), I couldn't read it all in one sitting because I kept getting depressed. Throughout the book are so many quotations from writers expressing excitement, hope, dreams fulfilled. There is an entire CHAPTER devoted to the fact that writers frame their $1 "symbolic" advance, and what it means to them.

My heart broke a little every time I read one of those comments, because I know those same writers are about to have their dreams smashed. They're about to find out that, according to their own statistics, PublishAmerica authors sell about 70 copies of their books... including books they bought themselves and sold to friends and family. They're about to find out the crushing feeling of walking into a bookstore and finding out that the manager will not stock PublishAmerica books.

This is a terribly misleading book filled with statistics of dubious origin and a completely skewed vision of what real publishing is about. The founders of this company exhibit such anger toward real publishing houses because they were unable to get their own books published.

Apparently they failed to grasp the concept that publishers will gladly publish anything they think they can sell to the general public. It isn't a spiteful industry meant to keep new writers out; it's meant to find the new writers who've worked on their craft and polished their work until it's something the general public will want to buy.

What causes so much heartbreak is this: In this book, Meiners explains their concept-- on page 8, he calls PublishAmerica's authors "previously unpublishable." Ouch. What little faith he has in his authors! I can't imagine how I would feel if I had read this book as a PublishAmerica author. It's full of little (and big) insults, basically saying that they took the losers and put them in print. I sure wouldn't want my publisher to say that about me. They're wrong, too-- there are many authors sucked in by PublishAmerica who indeed could have landed real publishing contracts.

Chapter 7 is entirely about what jobs PublishAmerica writers have. There are paragraphs of all the past jobs particular writers have held throughout their lives.

In Chapter 12, we learn that all of the editors are excellent writers in their own right because "Without exception, they write excellent letters" (I'm not kidding-- that's a direct quotation) and that one of them was already a PublishAmerica author.

On page 191, we learn that 10 percent of PA authors never deposit their royalty checks. How thrilling that must be for the owners of PA, who then get to keep that money. How sad it must be to know that there's a reason the authors don't deposit them-- they're so tiny that it feels silly to bother.

The contradictions in this book abound-- at one point Meiners writes that PublishAmerica now publishes more than 2 percent of all books in the United States; later he decides it's more than 3 percent.

Their designers design up to 25 book covers PER DAY... think of what that means. How much attention are the designers giving to each book? Literally, just minutes.

I particularly liked the photo of someone from the "Author Support Team" wearing a t-shirt that says "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you." I couldn't have summed it up better.

I give this book 2 stars for creativity. I pray that this glorified sales brochure will not lead even more writers who deserve an honest shot at publication to be misled by PublishAmerica.

[Rose colored glasses]

In Chapter 12, we learn that all of the editors are excellent writers in their own right because "Without exception, they write excellent letters" (I'm not kidding-- that's a direct quotation) and that one of them was already a PublishAmerica author. :ROFL: :roll:

[Dawno]

I wake up this morning and eventually get over here to check out the world of AW. I note that Shelagh is not showing up in the members list and her posts seem to be missing too.

I'm sorry she felt that way -- it was an interesting couple of days there with her around.

BTW, AW notifies me by email of every post on my subscribed list and those emails are all archived in my gmail. Gmail is searchable. If you need a quote from the recent NEPAT posts, let me know, I think I can find it.

[James D. Macdonald]

Now it can be revealed! Here is a copy of PA's letter to Encyclopedia Britannica:

Dear Encyclopedia Britannica:

Don't take that tone with us. Your complaints are incoherent and filled with false claims that verge upon libel. We have over 14,000 very happy authors who don't believe that we infringed your trademark. There is no trademark, there is no infringement, and we will expect your prompt apology.

Your letter was discarded unread and did not reach its intended recipient. Any future letters you send will also be discarded unread.

Have a nice day.

Author Support Team

[Aconite]

Dawno, you are a joy. :)

[Memphis Ed]

To steer the conversation away from what seems to be attention seeking without any facts, here is something to remind us why fight against this shameful scam company:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=5279

It makes my stomach turn to think what she is in for.

This is EXACTLY why these efforts have to continue. This breaks my heart.

[James D. Macdonald]

As long as we're talking about PA threads, could someone tell this person that the typical PA author spends hundreds or thousands of dollars that they never see again? That, just like other vanity authors, they wind up with their back bedrooms filled with unsalable books?

I've been reading through the blogs and I didn't realize that the author does have to pay for virtually everything. I saw one site linked in a blog for press release starting at $199 when I read my PA contract it said that copyright will be taken out in authors name, which made it seem as though PA did it but later I find out that I, the author, has to do it and pay for it. What is the average cost people are having to pay for their novel? I'm getting pretty nervous so soon in the game.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=5349

[Dawno]

I was sad to see one PA author on another board saying this:

For anyone else struggling to get a book into a store then order a copy yourself and try to get a few family and friends to order one a week or so to get the book onto the system.

This book business is much harder than we ever realised and it is going to take determination over a long period to make any headway. I for one am glad I have a seven year contract with PA because I got seven years to make the grade.

BTW, Shelagh gives her reasons for leaving AW and deleting her posts here (http://s9.invisionfree.com/Author_Forum/index.php?showtopic=237&view=findpost&p=899507). It's an interesting take on the conversation she thought we were having.

[Aconite]

BTW, Shelagh gives her reasons for leaving AW and deleting her posts here (http://s9.invisionfree.com/Author_Forum/index.php?showtopic=237&view=findpost&p=899507). It's an interesting take on the conversation she thought we were having.
Interesting, indeed. I especially like how she claims always to have held the logical view about first-time authors getting published that it took other AW members nearly a day to get through to her.

Sigh. This is the first time I've ever wished people hadn't clipped quoted posts for brevity, but had left them whole.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Y'know, maybe I'm just a grade-A *****, but I have no sympathy for shelagh and her abrupt leave-taking. I have very little patience for temper tantrums, and she threw the mother of several temper tantrum kittens. She played the indignant martyr, a role she hadn't earned. "I shouldn't have to provide proof for my unsupported claims!" "Oh, yes, go ahead and take a swipe at me!" "If you all won't agree with me unquestionably and unconditionally, I'm going to take my marbles and go home!" I've seen it before; I've seen it on the NEPAT before. I'm not impressed. Sorry, guys.

I do wish, though, that she hadn't acted so immaturely, and that she'd stuck around and consistently engaged the discussion. A pro-PA voice in the NEPAT brings out all the best anti-PA arguments. Right now this moment is a great time for a new author considering PA to read the last 4 pages of the NEPAT and learn exactly why they should run fast and far away. And if shelagh had taken disagreement like a grown-up, presented her point of view, and engaged the rebuttals, the end result would be an even more informative thread to read. The presence of reasonable-sounding counter-arguments and the solid answers they receive from the original argument can be very educational.

[Dawno]

A pro-PA voice in the NEPAT brings out all the best anti-PA arguments. Right now this moment is a great time for a new author considering PA to read the last 4 pages of the NEPAT and learn exactly why they should run fast and far away. *snip* The presence of reasonable-sounding counter-arguments and the solid answers they receive from the original argument can be very educational.

EXACTLY! That's very well put Nicole. I wouldn't be suprised if someone told her to pack up her posts and leave as quickly as possible for just that reason.

[Richard]

Shelagh's alternate universe is her own, but her deleting that many posts from the thread was nothing short of pathetic.

[aruna]

Now it can be revealed! Here is a copy of PA's letter to Encyclopedia Britannica:

For a moment I thought you were serious.

[Gravity]

Waiting for PA: a Play In One Scene

The house lights dim.

On the darkened stage we see Shelaugh rounding a bend in the road. She comes upon the still form of a man. Lying beside him is a burning torch, sputtering fitfully, almost out.

The man is disheveled, dissolute.

And quite dead.

Shelaugh reaches down, pulls out his wallet. The ID inside reads, simply, Shemp. The woman picks up the torch. She rises with it, firmly grasped in her hand.

"Don't worry," she whispers, her words catching in her throat. "The cause isn't lost. I'll...carry this for you."

The orchestra swells, the house lights come up.

Exit, stage left.

Fin


So, whattya think? Did it resonate?

[James D. Macdonald]

It resonated like a glove, there, Gravity.

But I have to say I disagree. I think that Shelagh is a new author looking for answers, not the next Shemp. I think she's somewhere between denial and anger on the scale of grieving for her book. And I think that she'll be back in February after that batch of royalty checks show her what the real story is in very certain terms.

I think that what prompted her flight was embarassment. You know how in cartoons sometimes a character, realizing that he's been made a fool of, turns briefly into a giant lollipop labeled "Sucker"? I think Shelagh had one of those moments.

I could be all wrong, of course. But I don't think she's a nutter.

[astonwest]

I think that what prompted her flight was embarassment.

The fact she went to another board (full of other PA authors) and pulled the "woe is me, look how they mistreated me. They're such meanies..." bit is strangely reminiscent. Deleting her own posts was pretty ingenious, although it's not the first time it's happened, so...

[Lady of Prose]

I could be all wrong, of course. But I don't think she's a nutter.

I agree with Jim. I will add, that she's a die-hard, just like another "rah, rah" woman of the PA boards, who knows better. Only in the latter's case, she is using PA as a printer, and doesn't care that potentially good, young and naive writers are being taken in by PA. She cares only that her "book" is in print to share with family and friends. With Shelagh, there is hope that perhaps she wants more for her book.

I think in case of the "rah, rah," woman, she is far above SJ, P, LB, and others, as contender for title of Queen of PA. After all, she did get flowers from PA. That must count for something.

For those who have access to the private boards, that little rah, rah, thing they have going now, is sickening.

Yep, not in a charitable mood today -- sick of PA and the rah, rah, bunch.

[James D. Macdonald]

Y'know, while word of this lawsuit hasn't appeared on the public PAMB, and my spies haven't mentioned it showing up in the private boards, I bet you a nickle that the private email lines are burning up as PA authors tell their PA author friends about it.

[Lady of Prose]

I bet you a nickle that the private email lines are burning up as PA authors tell their PA author friends about it.

You got it, Jim. Exactly how I heard about it, through an email.

[PVish]

Y'know, while word of this lawsuit hasn't appeared on the public PAMB, and my spies haven't mentioned it showing up in the private boards, I bet you a nickle that the private email lines are burning up as PA authors tell their PA author friends about it.

I wonder why the "email psychic" retained by the Australian agent who represents some PA authors--and ex-PA authors--didn't see it coming?
http://www.celticsorceryproductions.com/authors.htm

[Lady of Prose]

I wonder why the "email psychic" retained by the Austrailian agent who represents some PA authors--and ex-PA authors--didn't see it coming?
http://www.celticsorceryproductions.com/authors.htm

:ROFL:

[Richard]

That web page hurts my brain.

[Christine N.]

And what will poor Shelagh do, once her publisher (since she's in England, I'm assuming she's under the PB umbrella) has to cough up 75K plus attorney fees and has to "close" the office in Milton Keyes?

I did like her, right up until I saw that other message board.. She brought intelligent discussion to the table. Better than Gina, anyway. She was articulate and well spoken, if not well-informed.

Then again, a few months ago, Argile and Jean Marie and Sooty were singing the same tune that she is now. And last year or so, so were Diana and Dee and...
We'll see her again, guarantee it. Save her a chair, put on the tea.

[Aconite]

I think that what prompted her flight was embarassment. You know how in cartoons sometimes a character, realizing that he's been made a fool of, turns briefly into a giant lollipop labeled "Sucker"? I think Shelagh had one of those moments.
I got that impression, too. And I actually felt sympathetic--we've all been ignorant newbies, and it's embarrassing when you realize your ignorance is vaster than you knew (especially when you thought you were pretty well informed) and it's been visible to everyone. Ouch.

Her huffing off to another board and reframing everything that happened here as a spiteful attack on her (and deleting her posts to remove the evidence otherwise) was supremely jerkish, though.

[Sheryl Nantus]

she seems to be having trouble on her own forums... some posters there are talking about coming to visit AW and she's rushing to stop them.

*shakes head*

quick, to the turrets! AW is trying to steal my thunder! How DARE my posters go and visit that awful place and decide for themselves if it's a good board or not!

sheesh...

[aruna]

Anyway, today I asked for her book in Waterstones. It wasn't in the store, of course, but he checked on the computer and found it; said it would cost £12.95, which I would have to pay upfront, and he'd have to check if it's in stock. Which he did. He then told me it's a POD book and I coul dorder it, but it would take 2 or 3 weeks; and again, I'd have to pay up front; whereas normally you pay when you collect the book.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Anyway, today I asked for her book in Waterstones. It wasn't in the store, of course, but he checked on the computer and found it; said it would cost £12.95, which I would have to pay upfront, and he'd have to check if it's in stock. Which he did. He then told me it's a POD book and I coul dorder it, but it would take 2 or 3 weeks; and again, I'd have to pay up front; whereas normally you pay when you collect the book.

which is why this "scheme" of having family and friends order the book from bookstores doesn't work.

the idea is that the manager will suddenly realise how GOOD the book is due to the overwhelming demand and order in TONS of said book for the general public. Of course, since you pay up front and walk away this isn't going to happen. The manager can't take a chance on a non-returnable book sitting on the shelf.

d'oh!

[CaoPaux]

I wonder why the "email psychic" retained by the Australian agent who represents some PA authors--and ex-PA authors--didn't see it coming?
http://www.celticsorceryproductions.com/authors.htmOh. My. Goddess.

Words fail; they truly do. :faint:

[astonwest]

she seems to be having trouble on her own forums...

On a related note, I certainly wish people would sign their name to the posts they happen to make over at that forum (if they aren't already). Some of the "Guest" posts from people who claim to be AWers are a little over-the-top in my opinion...and are probably doing more to drive people away from the idea of coming here than anything.

But what do I know?

[James D. Macdonald]

I personally believe in always signing my name, or leaving other identifying data. No 'A reader' thing for me.

I don't think much of going to some board to do a drive-by, either.

[Sheryl Nantus]

true - might be in her best interest to activate that option that makes you register before posting, perhaps...

*shrugs*

[Aconite]

true - might be in her best interest to activate that option that makes you register before posting, perhaps...
Why is that? Have there been nasty messages deleted that I didn't see? I read the thread (why, oh why, do PA authors keep tossing out that line about how "bashers" blame them for being scammed? Have they read a single page here?!), and thought everything sounded civil.

[Birol]

I agree everything sounds civil, but it's a matter of appearances. When an unregistered member is making claims in support of AW and AW's actions, it appears as if AW representatives deliberately sent the anonymous user to keep the debate active. To the best of my knowledge, this is not the case.

[Aconite]

Ah, I see. It's a matter of bona fides, then.

[Sheryl Nantus]

well, considering she's badmouthing AW and gnashing her teeth about how poorly treated she was...

;)

[Ken Schneider]

I posted over there, but signed Ken.

It is a fight of pride for them. They won't listen. Are happy. So be it.

[Canada James]

Y'know, maybe I'm just a grade-A *****, but I have no sympathy for shelagh and her abrupt leave-taking.

She reminds me of me.

CJ

[Canada James]

Shelagh's alternate universe is her own, but her deleting that many posts from the thread was nothing short of pathetic.

That was the point I was at when I finally started coming around.

Take it easy on her.

CJ

[cwgranny]

I went to Shelagh's board and ... it really looks like a some folks (especially the ones who didn't sign any kind of name) ran over there to behave badly. When she was here, she acted out of fear for her book, wounded pride, and embarassment -- she certainly wasn't comfortable. But when folks rushed over there -- it looked a lot like acting out of spite and meanness. Could that poor girl really have said ANYTHING here that stung enough to make someone act like that?

We know it looked like meanness to her friends there, but it also looked that way to casual readers. If your goal is really to warn away those who have not yet signed, those kind of drive-bys don't tend to do it. They just make the PA-opposition look spiteful. Keep in mind that the average reader won't follow the links to here, so the overall impression you gave there is the only one they've got.

Of course, on the up side...maybe EB will take the lawsuit all the way and PA will go down like a blaming arrow. I like visualizing it...it's replacing my time spent visualizing whirled peas each day.

gran

[aruna]

I've just posted a friendly, signed message there, inviting her back. Hope it makes up for it!

[James D. Macdonald]

Anonymous posts in messageboards, anonymous posts in guestbooks, anonymous reviews on Amazon -- none of them do any positive good.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Anonymous posts in messageboards, anonymous posts in guestbooks, anonymous reviews on Amazon -- none of them do any positive good.

so true, James... so true.

the anonymous guestbooks are the worst, imo - just being impolite and discourteous to slam someone on their own page doesn't do anything but make YOU look like a jerk.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Of course, on the up side...maybe EB will take the lawsuit all the way and PA will go down like a blaming arrow. I like visualizing it...it's replacing my time spent visualizing whirled peas each day.

gran

I'm not sure how far EB will take it, but given that PA blew off TWO notices to cease-and-desist, I'd wager EB is hot under the collar and ready to rumble...

PA may well be sending out new emails with another "great" book deals to their victims soon enough to raise the cash...

:P

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

She reminds me of me.Well, meh! I probably wouldn't have had much sympathy for you if I were around when you were behaving badly, either! I expect a certain minimum of rational, adult behavior out of allegedly rational adults before I'll sympathize with them or defend them, and I try not to reward attention-seeking temper tantrums.

As I implied earlier, you are, of course, perfectly welcome to consider me a Grade-A b!tch for it.

If she follows in your illustrious footsteps and comes back all grown up, she'll get my respect in these forums, never fear. Not that that's some sort of blue ribbon, of course, my being only one person in these wild and rambly forums.

As for my own post on her board, I admit that her "I shouldn't have to support my claims with facts!" song and dance tweaked my pet peeve buttons. Perhaps I should have refrained. But at least I signed my own name. I think had she not deleted all her posts, signed off the AW forums, and then gone off to tell one-sided tales, the temptation to defend the board against her off-site trash-talking would not have been so great.

[JennaGlatzer]

Just to end off on a little positive note for me tonight (drumroll please)...

My review of Willie the Snake's Book of Lies is still on Amazon, where it has garnered 11 "helpful" votes and just one "not helpful" vote. This calls for a dancing banana.

:banana:

Also, Shelagh and I did end on a peaceful note, and she wished this forum well.

[James D. Macdonald]

FWIW, I like Shelagh. (But then, I liked Canada James too back at the time, and I still like him.)

I wish all writers the very best.

[Aconite]

In case Shelagh's lurking, I'd like to tell her that I, too, liked her, even if I didn't like her behavior sometimes, and I hope she does well with her future books.

[aruna]

The link to the authorslawyer page doesn't work; I'm getting an error message. I need to see it as I am writing an article after all (for Writers' News); anybody have a copy they can send me?

[Aconite]

The link to the authorslawyer page doesn't work; I'm getting an error message. I need to see it as I am writing an article after all (for Writers' News); anybody have a copy they can send me?
Aruna, check your PM.

[Canada James]

Well, meh! I probably wouldn't have had much sympathy for you if I were around when you were behaving badly, either!

"Nothing in human nature is foreign to me."
(I think this quote is Plutarch. If I recall correctly, he wrote this in response to what he thought of all the people whose histories he recorded. If I'm wrong, please correct me.)

cj

[Lady of Prose]

Your review of Willie's book is still up! You've got 16 out of 17 "helpful" hits. Humm...can't imagine who did the one non-helpful Humm... Sock Puppit must be on the prowl!



Hey, all, where is Mac these days? I've not seen that supper-mod around in awhile.

[MacAllister]

Awww--thanks, Lady. :) I'm around. Been doing some volunteer work the last few days, and spending a large amount of time tracking down friends and family members in Katrina's path. Everyone I know is okay, so far.

[Lady of Prose]

Hi, Mac! Glad to hear things are okay with you and you found everyone you know safe from Katrina. Thanks for your volunteer service, and for responding to let me know all is well with you.

Everyone I know is well too! Something to be thankful for.

[James D. Macdonald]

Minor request here -- every time you search on Wild Willie's book could you also search on Atlanta Nights and Ten Percent of Nothing? Thanks.

[AnneMarble]

Minor request here -- every time you search on Wild Willie's book could you also search on Atlanta Nights and Ten Percent of Nothing? Thanks.
Wow. That really does make a difference. Will ya look at that?
:Clap:

[Gravity]

FWIW...Jenna's dead-bang review of Willie's tome is still up on amazon. So it appears we have one for, one against. Maybe that's their new philosophy: they'll keep up one review that tells the unvarnished truth for every clueless sycophantic blurb.

Hey, it's a start.

[robeiae]

Perhaps it's because she makes it clear she has bought and read the book...tough to complain that she's just being cruel.

Rob :)

[Lady of Prose]

Perhaps it's because she makes it clear she has bought and read the book...tough to complain that she's just being cruel.

Rob :)

I believe that helps.

[Rose colored glasses]

Minor request here -- every time you search on Wild Willie's book could you also search on Atlanta Nights and Ten Percent of Nothing? Thanks.


Well I hope this isn't some kind of hint, but quite often when I go to check my book ranking, it's listed as " People who looked at Ellie also looked at" Meiner's book. Excuse the pun, but it gives me the Willies to see my book grouped with his.

But thanks for looking.:hi:

[Memphis Ed]

Perhaps it's because she makes it clear she has bought and read the book...tough to complain that she's just being cruel.

Rob :)

I particularly liked the pro-Mieners review that included the fact that she found only two mispelled words in his book.

THAT should tell the world something.....I think reviews should focus more on the spelling and editing and less on the content, storyline, and competency of the author.

As a matter of fact, I sorta wish the NYT ranking was based on fewest mispelled words. Those are the great books.

Sheesh...... and great job, Jenna.

BTW, at this precise moment, there are hundreds of PA authors about to get disappointed when they check their mail....hundreds. Most of them will be expecting their second check to dwarf the first thanks to the 90 day hoax.

PA lurkers, believe this...there is no ninety day delay. It does not exist when you and bookstore purchasers are paying with CC.

BTW, you'd think that any business with 14,000 happy cusotmers would be clamoring to get them together to help tell the story. Any word on another convention of PA authors?

I didn't think so.

[Gravity]

I beleive there was another convention planned, but now with the ongoing problems of getting oil, it seems tar is in short supply. Owing to the popularity of chicken wings, however, feathers appear to plentiful, so perhaps ingenuity will come to the fore.

After all, get 14,000 deliriously "happy" authors in the same room with Willie, Larry, and Miranda, and I'd bet we'd be surprised at how inventive those authors could be.

John

[James D. Macdonald]

Collector's Edition Atlanta Nights:

http://evilrooster.com/items/2005/09/atlanta_nights.html

I'll let y'all know when the auction is, soon's I find out.

[Aconite]

Collector's Edition Atlanta Nights:

OUCH: "It is bound cross-grained, out of non-archival and archivally hostile materials. The book block has been trimmed entirely off square, so that there are no right angles on the pages. Most of the adhesive used in the book is highly acidic woodworking glue...."

I want it for my birthday.

[CaoPaux]

Collector's Edition Atlanta Nights:

http://evilrooster.com/items/2005/09/atlanta_nights.html

I'll let y'all know when the auction is, soon's I find out. :roll: Glorious, Jim, utterly glorious.

[AnneMarble]

Collector's Edition Atlanta Nights:

http://evilrooster.com/items/2005/09/atlanta_nights.html


Oooh, that's eeevil, and I mean that as a compliment.

I might post that link in the ghost fiction mailing list I belong to because there are a lot of book collectors there, and they'll find that funny -- or terrifying. I'd post the link in the ghost fiction newsgroup, but that would probably result in another flamewar. (Hint: In that group you can start flamewars by doing things like staying on topic, or for that matter, by writing any post that contains articles and/or conjuctions. Or the letter e. ;) )

[JennaGlatzer]

Perhaps it's because she makes it clear she has bought and read the book...tough to complain that she's just being cruel.

Rob :)

That was precisely my plan. And guess what? It's still there!

:banana:

BUT!

THEY EDITED OUT MY FINAL PARAGRAPH. Compare what's on Amazon to what I posted here. So someone did complain, and Amazon did respond...

[Bufty]

Interesting question here, folks:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=5613

[Dawno]

Saddest quote of the thread linked above:

Don't have a book released yet to get a check, but just wanted to say that, XXXXXXX, your comment about hoping no body was here to get rich was pretty negative and just shoots people down.
Maybe you feel you won't get rich, but please don't speak for all of us.

Don't mean to be rude. Just wanted to let you know.

[James D. Macdonald]

Contrast that with the standard PA anti-author statement: "Hah! Those whiners! They only wanted to get rich!"

Just watch -- you're going to be seeing that (or its variants) very soon.

[Ken Schneider]

This is the second royalty check for my P.A. book. Yes, the vaunted 90 day boon check.

Retail discount: -40%

Sales Price: 11.97

Quanity: 3

Royalty: 8%

Royalty amount: $2.87

P.A.'s take $33.04 From my hard work and sweat. All they did was make up a chessy cover and format it in Adobe Acrobat writer. They did no editing as it was done. They sent the electronic proofs to Lightning source who printed it and sold it back to P.A. for 2.00 dollars. They sold me 150 copies for (9.98 each.) making a profit of $1200.00 dollars. One 1,000 dollars more than it cost them to produce it. They are a very expensive vanity publisher.

Had I not purchased my own books, my royalties would be the same.

[tiny]

I found this post on the PA site and thought it was interesting that it didn't get got by them.

•••

It's a crap shoot. First thing you have to sell 25 books at 8 percent commission to just recover your copyright fee.


So your down 25 books just to get started. I think that is why a number of POD authors just take their free books and then let the posting on the internet and newspaper articles, bookmarks and a few flyers do the leg work, and hope to get back to even.

If you want to really get into the game and you feel you can sell a lot of books, then you buy the minimum fifty (or more) at the 50% discount. Here's is where it gets tricky.

Suddenly a box of 50 books shows up on your doorstep. What to do? Of course you will try the local bookstores for a consignment deal; however, the bookstore mgr is not likely to like the price of your $19.95 book (or whatever), and he/she will want to cut the price to be more in line with the offerings of the shop. That means cutting the $19.95 price tag in half, which leaves you nothing, and possibly not even breaking even, if the bookstore wants a cut.

Are your driving? The price of a gallon gas averages approximately $2.65 depending on your location. To recover the cost of one gallon of gasoline requires the sale of 2 and 1/2 books.

The flyers can be produced at low cost if you have a good color printer, and the bookmarks don't cost much and the WEB sites are a nice hobby and don't cost much, but every cost has to be recovered with a book sale, and WEB sites, bookmarks and flyers don't sell books, at least not anywhere near the amount that you need to break even. Of course there is postage to consider, plus the drive to the Post Office. Did I mention the price of gas?

But it's a nice hobby, if you need a hobby that you can afford. It is probably not as expensive as golf, or woodworking, but like a crap shoot when you roll the dice you keep hoping for sevens or elevens, but unfortunately you keep getting snake eyes. The secret is knowing when to quit.

•••

-chris

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

My first royalty check arrived this afternoon. I feel VERY fortunate to have enough to buy a tank of gas - $21 and pocket change - and all that on only 15 books sold! Gosh! I'm just SURE it'll be breathtaking when I get past that 90 day window and get my next one!

Or... not.

And... has anyone else noticed that they don't get bulk mail? Mine cost 'em the whole .37 to send.

[LloydBrown]

And... has anyone else noticed that they don't get bulk mail? Mine cost 'em the whole .37 to send.

That's really interesting. Do they actually send out fewer than 200 royalty checks, or are they really too stupid to follow the bulk mail guidelines, or are they too ignorant to have thought about it for their six years in business?

[Lady of Prose]

My check was about twice the amount of the last one. There were 19 40% sales, and some UK sales @ 14% .

How accurate is it? I have not a clue.

[DaveKuzminski]

Wowwwww! Twice the amount. I wonder if that means PA is trying to clean up the books and pay out what they really owe so they'll be in a better position in court against EB?

[James D. Macdonald]

That's really interesting. Do they actually send out fewer than 200 royalty checks, or are they really too stupid to follow the bulk mail guidelines, or are they too ignorant to have thought about it for their six years in business?

Possibly stupid and ignorant.

The whole time he was in business James van Treese cashed the authors' payments to Northwest Publishing at a check-cashing service rather than getting a normal business account at a bank.

[Lady of Prose]

Originally Posted by LloydBrown
That's really interesting. Do they actually send out fewer than 200 royalty checks, or are they really too stupid to follow the bulk mail guidelines, or are they too ignorant to have thought about it for their six years in business?



I was surprised mine was metered postage. Something new for me. My last mail from them was a "lick 'um" stamp. As was my original mail containing contract. The certified mail with the ridiculous "non-exclusive" contract offer was metered at the post office of course. I was surprised they even bothered to certify it.

[Bufty]

A writer on the PA Board invites suggestions for a title for her book. Some wit suggested Hot-Lanta Nights.

[astonwest]

1 copy sold for $0.84 in royalties. That might pay for the gas to drive to the bank...

One has to wonder how a book so old keep selling piddly amounts every six months...

[AnneMarble]

wow a record for them 2 insults in 30 minutes
Now that deserves an award.
:Trophy:

[Torin]

1 copy sold for $0.84 in royalties. That might pay for the gas to drive to the bank...

One has to wonder how a book so old keep selling piddly amounts every six months...

Assuming the bank is across the street. $.84 will buy a little more than a litre of gas here in NS.

[Aconite]

Assuming the bank is across the street. $.84 will buy a little more than a litre of gas here in NS.
Is that $.84 Canadian or American? Don't forget to factor in the conversion charge.

[Bufty]

Is that $.84 Canadian or American? Don't forget to factor in the conversion charge.

Here across the pond, the Bank Teller would probably make that check into an aeroplane and flip it into the nearest trash can for you.

[Birol]

Assuming the bank is across the street. $.84 will buy a little more than a litre of gas here in NS.

A friend of mine was just in Montreal on business. Said gas was going for CDN$1.50/liter there. (US Conversion ~US$1.35/quart)

[astonwest]

Oops...I wrote $.84, and meant to write $.81 (US)...
(silly keypad)

That will get me a little less than a third of a gallon here...
which would be about 7 miles.
Yup, that's about a round trip visit to the bank.

[writerjenn]

0.86 here! Woo hooo... No wonder releasing me from my contract isn't in my best interest, what with income like that coming in!

Sheesh...

Jenn

[Diane]

I just wanted to say I finished reading the entire NEPAT the other day (the thread had 955 pages when I started, 977 when I finished). It's amazing, stupendous, funny, heart-breaking, informative, tragic, and inspirational. Kudos to all who've contributed to it.

I've never gone near PublishAmerica -- in fact, I don't think I ever heard of them before reading about Atlanta Nights on Making Light. Only recently did I come across a reference that piqued my interest and led me to the NEPAT.

(Is it wrong of me to admit I want to find out the next chapter in the sagas of Gina and Shelagh? Gina's should be around now, and Shelagh's will be in spring...)

[reph]

A Google search for "travis tea" "atlanta nights" now returns 10,200 hits.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22travis+tea%22+%22atlanta+nights%22

[Susan Gable]

I just wanted to say I finished reading the entire NEPAT the other day (the thread had 955 pages when I started, 977 when I finished). It's amazing, stupendous, funny, heart-breaking, informative, tragic, and inspirational. Kudos to all who've contributed to it.


(Is it wrong of me to admit I want to find out the next chapter in the sagas of Gina and Shelagh? Gina's should be around now, and Shelagh's will be in spring...)

Hi, Diane, and welcome! :hi: NEPAT is an addiction. I'm so glad I got started on reading it before it hit the 900's. Kudos to you for reading the whole thing. It is an interesting education, especially in the way it cycles. Yes, the next chapter should be starting soon. :)

Susan G.

[Torin]

Is that $.84 Canadian or American? Don't forget to factor in the conversion charge.

Today, gas prices have come down to $1.20 a litre (keep in mind it takes almost 4 litres to make a gallon). Even in Cdn $, it translates to around a buck a litre or $4 a gallon. $.84 doesn't go far, either way. Gas was $1.40/litre the other day. Don't ask about heating oil for the winter. Before the prices went way up, it was over 80 cents a litre. Last year it was around 55. Guess who's heating with wood this year?

[book_maven]

I just found this on the PAMB where they are bragging that PA is not the only "publisher" to make mistakes:

My friend and I were just discussing a book we were both reading by a very New Yorks Times Best selling author (whom I love) and we were both irritated because halfway into the book, the heroine's name changed. Not something simple like a name that sounds the same but a complete name change. It was rather annoying. But it happens even with very big and well known publishing companies.

Okay, I'd like to ask the poster. What are the names of this alleged author and publisher?

[Lady of Prose]

. But it happens even with very big and well known publishing companies.

Okay, I'd like to ask the poster. What are the names of this alleged author and publisher?


You and me both, Maven. I dislike it when people make claims like that, and don't back them up with easy to prove facts.

[Richard]

Wouldn't it be great if it turned out to be a short-story compilation?

"The heroine's name changed! And the story became a Western! Who edited this piece of crap?"

[astonwest]

Maybe the heroine was placed in the witness protection program...

Either that, or the name was misprinted in one spot. I saw that happen with one of Janet Evanovich's books, where a conversation was going on, and one of the dialogue tags contained the name of a character who had been kidnapped early on in the book (and was still). I had to do a double-take on that one...

[Gravity]

Say, this is rather cool...Wille's book now has three ratings on amazon, the latest a truthful ripping that was first posted, then deleted, on July 7. Wonder why they did that? Strange...

John

[Dawno]

Is it just me (maybe my IP has been banned?) or is the Authors Forum gone? I got a message when I tried to go there: 404: Board Does Not Exist. Make sure you did not mis-type the URL.

Has anyone been able to visit lately?

[aruna]

Is it just me (maybe my IP has been banned?) or is the Authors Forum gone? I got a message when I tried to go there:

Has anyone been able to visit lately?

yes, the board has gone. We guess she just got fed up and moved it.

[Dawno]

oh well. I was reading Certainty guy's posts with great interest, too bad.

[James D. Macdonald]

Only five more days to buy Atlanta Nights this September!

For a limited time* only, if you buy direct from Lulu.com (http://www.lulu.com/content/102550), you can have it for a 30% saving over the Amazon price (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D1411622987/ref%3Dnosim/sfwa-20/)!

We only need to sell a dozen more copies to reach the mystical 500 copy mark, where Atlanta Nights would be eligible for the fabled Independence Books program. All without the author buying any copies at all! (I sure as heck haven't been selling 'em out of the trunk of my car....)

----------------------

*Limited to the remainder of this century.

[James D. Macdonald]

Dawno, you can read Certainty Guy's posts at http://www.s13.invisionfree.com/200authors

[Aconite]

Bringing this over from NEPAT:
Can you cite reputable survey evidence for you assertions about what "most people" and "the general public" believe about POD? Or are these your off-the-top-of-your-head generalizations?
No, Ken, I was winging it, based on conversations I've had and overheard. My impression is that people who know enough about publishing to know what POD and self-publishing are tend to think self-published POD books are generally bad enough not to bother searching through for possible gems. This is not a scientific study or a reputable poll, of course, and does not warrant my earlier phrasing, I agree.

[CaoPaux]

I agree the average reader doesn’t know and doesn’t care who or what created the book they're holding. All they care about is an attractive cover, blurb, and interesting first page or two. If the cover is sloppy clipart, strike one. If the first couple pages are rife with errors, strike two. If it's priced over other books of comparable size, strike three and you're back on the shelf.

The bookstore buyers, however, know the relative quality of books and publishers. They also know the browsing habits of the average reader. Since the vast majority of POD books don’t meet their standards, they don't bother with any of them. Compound this with every Tom, Dick, and Harry badgering buyers and managers to stock their POD book, and you quickly get a real and increasing distaste for POD among industry insiders. Who gripe about it to family and friends; who mention it to their family and friends.

So the average reader may have never seen a POD book, but they’re hearing about them, and not in a good way.

[rekirts]

Thank you for your kind directions Aconite. I feel a bit silly for not realizing what NEPAT was. :D Although I'm not sure I would have found this thread without your help. 'Course I don't really have anything to add at the moment. I'm still too stunned. Didn't know I was saying anything controversial. That'll teach me.

[Aconite]

rekirts, I don't think you said anything very controversial. I think you just hit someone's sore spot. We've all got our Things, y'know? (Mine involves sitting on my hands while I yell at the monitor, "Argh! Argh! Read the backthread, why don't you?!" Sometimes I forget the sitting-on-hands part, and then...er. Well. Anyway. We all have our Things.)

[rekirts]

Heh, yah, I've done a lot of figurative tongue biting on various forums. If I had a record of all the things I deleted or didn't type before pressing the reply button, I'd probably shock myself.

[Aconite]

Lulu lets you make toilet paper from your rejection letters (http://www.lulu.com/tp)

Can Atlanta Nights fail to follow?

[CaoPaux]

Lulu lets you make toilet paper from your rejection letters (http://www.lulu.com/tp)

Can Atlanta Nights fail to follow?*dies laughing*

[aruna]

I was thinking the other day that a lot of the appeal PA offers is emotional. Think of the great "community feeling" they all have on the PAMB - as far as I know, real publishers don't have any thing of this sort. I hardly know any other writer with my publisher: I met one lady at a party, and that's it! I wouldn't think of hob-nobbing with other authors of my publisher, simply because we share a publisher. I have several writer friends, but it just so happens that we all have different publishers.
PA-lers have a distinctive PA feeling. On the message boards I saw a post of someone wondering if they should all send their books to celebrities. There is a fuzzy, touchy-feely "we" atmosphere there, a think-alike solidarity.
I think that the PAMB is an extremely strong marketing tool for just this reason. It generates a feeling of belonging in readers, people who perhaps are lonely and struggling with private issues, people with low self-esteem. There, they see al these authors getting all euphoric; a huge balloon labelled "success" drifts in over the horizon, their spirits lift: I can make it too! I can be a part of that! I want to belong got the club! They are all so happy together! Let me in!
The "New authors arrival" thread has a particularly rose-tinted edge to it. "Here we are! We're in the door! Give us a hug! We're part of you now!" "Oh, welcome, welcome to the family! Hugs and kisses, isn't it a great feeling!"
Nothing wrong with all of this, of course; but I do feel that PA manipulates this human need for belonging in order to make money. Of course, lots of other companies do that. All those dating agencies, for example. But here, the banner of fame and fortune goes before...

[Aconite]

*dies laughing*

Oh no! I killed CaoPaux! Now who will update the Index? Oh, woe is we!

I'm gonna lose rep points for this. I just know it.

[astonwest]

Can Atlanta Nights fail to follow?

Just in time for Christmas gifts...
I've gotta have some AN TP...

Errrr, except for $90+, I could probably get someone a DVD player or better...

[CaoPaux]

Oh no! I killed CaoPaux! Now who will update the Index? Oh, woe is we!

I'm gonna lose rep points for this. I just know it.http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0188.gif

Say, remember Ed Williams? He just opened a cool ezboard: http://p105.ezboard.com/bedandsootswritersguild

[CaoPaux]

MacAllister, I can't get PMing to work on this computer, but I wanted you to know that I got yours and, while I won't pretend to understand it, I'll keep the subject in mind. Thanks!

[Trepanny Peck]

Aruna: Love-bombing like that is a very common cult-initiation activity.

[JohnJStephens]

Someone sent me an email saying that PA's behaviour is similar to something described in Foucault's Pendulum (Umberto Eco).

I'm ashamed to say that I do not remember this, even though I read the book many years ago. And I do not have the book to hand. Can anyone enlighten me?

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Yes. The main characters in Foucault's Pendulum work, essentially, for a small-time Italian verison of PA. Only the fictional scam publisher focuses on books about crackpot conspiracy theories and mysticism and such.

I could probably find something useful to quote, given time. But it's been awhile since my last reread so I don't entirely remember where in the book the various plot elements are.

[MadScientistMatt]

This just in: A PublishAmerica author may not have won the Nobel Prize, but one just did win the Ig Nobel Prize! (http://www.improbable.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html) It was for his prosthetic dog testicles rather than his book, though, and the Ig Nobel Prize in Literature went to the multitude of Nigerian Scam Letter Writers.

I wonder if PA will feature this in their Up in the Lights section?

[DaveKuzminski]

This just in: A PublishAmerica author may not have won the Nobel Prize, but one just did win the Ig Nobel Prize! (http://www.improbable.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html) It was for his prosthetic dog testicles rather than his book, though, and the Ig Nobel Prize in Literature went to the multitude of Nigerian Scam Letter Writers.

I wonder if PA will feature this in their Up in the Lights section?

At last, a product that might prove useful to PA's executives since they don't have any. Otherwise, they wouldn't be afraid to enter a courtroom. ;)

[CaoPaux]

This just in: A PublishAmerica author may not have won the Nobel Prize, but one just did win the Ig Nobel Prize! (http://www.improbable.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html) It was for his prosthetic dog testicles rather than his book, though, and the Ig Nobel Prize in Literature went to the multitude of Nigerian Scam Letter Writers.

I wonder if PA will feature this in their Up in the Lights section?*snorts coffee*

Ow, ow, ow!!

[Aconite]

It was for his prosthetic dog testicles
*pause*
You have to wonder if it ever occurs to the people who buy these what purchase of said product says about how secure they are in their own masculinity.

[MadScientistMatt]

*pause*
You have to wonder if it ever occurs to the people who buy these what purchase of said product says about how secure they are in their own masculinity.

Especially since one of the articles I've read about them say that many owners try to talk vets into getting implants one size larger than original. I guess they're more comfortable making a request like that than doing a Derek Smalls impression and walking through airport security with foil wrapped cucumbers in their trousers.

[Aconite]

Especially since one of the articles I've read about them say that many owners try to talk vets into getting implants one size larger than original.
*falls out of chair laughing, hitting head on desk on way down*

[CaoPaux]

Ya know, I started several posts about women buyers accessorizing, etc., but they quickly became unsuitable for a public forum. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/whistle.gif

[Dawno]

There's a blog called "PODdy Mouth" (http://girlondemand.blogspot.com/2005/10/picture-tells-thousand-words-or.html) where the blogger reviews POD books. She's mentioned PA a number of times and has done so again in a recent post. It's worth a look :) Be warned though, there's a picture of L@rry C1opp3r in it so it's not for the weak stomached amongst us. ;)

[aruna]

there's a picture of L@rry C1opp3r in it so it's not for the weak stomached amongst us. ;)

:roll:

[Aconite]

She's mentioned PA a number of times and has done so again in a recent post. It's worth a look :) Be warned though, there's a picture of L@rry C1opp3r in it so it's not for the weak stomached amongst us. ;)
In contrast: pictures of the Tor Books offices (from SFRevu): http://www.sfrevu.com/ISSUES/2002/0208/Event%20-%20Tor/Page.html

[Dawno]

In contrast: pictures of the Tor Books offices (from SFRevu): http://www.sfrevu.com/ISSUES/2002/0208/Event%20-%20Tor/Page.html

Oh, Aconite, isn't that such a dramatic study in contrasts!! Makes me want to cry out to the PA faithful, "Folks, look at what a real publishing office looks like!! see, there are manuscripts and books all over the place."

I will say one thing to honor "fair and balanced" consideration - L@rry is the president of PA. I doubt that the president of the company that owns Tor has an office like the ones in the Tor photos. *BUT* if I were president and promoting my publishing company I think I'd at least have a book or two in the picture, even if I had to go borrow them from another office!

Frankly it looks to me like C1opp3r took a monitor and keyboard to a conference room and set it up to make it look like that's was his office. Makes you wonder if he hangs out there at all...

[astonwest]

They probably couldn't keep the cameras steady enough on-board the yacht.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

OK, why haven't I seen this mentioned here yet? (http://scrivenerserror.blogspot.com/2005/10/arggh-poetica.html)

Jaws, you're far too modest.

[Eveningsdawn]

I usually don't read this thread; I just happened to glance at it. But I have to say, that was an excellent paradoy-poem.

[James D. Macdonald]

Two threads on the Guestbook Slimer:

Start with Jenna's post here:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=1042&pp=25

Move on to this (now closed) thread:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19847

Now I will add a bit to the mix:

Patrick Nielsen Hayden at Tor is one of my editors; I have a book under contract with him.

I spoke with him personally on this question.

He has never heard of Evaline Horng, nor has Tor offered a contract for any book by a Evaline Horng.

[CaoPaux]

*snort* The mind boggles. It's one thing to presume PA authors wouldn't know s/he's lying, but to take it outside the Collective? And to bring it here, of all places. :crazy:

[James D. Macdonald]

10-12-2005, 04:43 PM #26159 (http://showpost.php?p=356719&postcount=26159) momwrites (http://member.php?u=849) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356719", true);
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Has anyone heard of Olympia Publishers in the UK?

They offered me a contract for my adult novel, Stepping Out of the Dark. Just wanted to see if they were legit, etc...

======================

0-12-2005, 05:26 PM #26162 (http://showpost.php?p=356771&postcount=26162) Sassenach (http://member.php?u=80) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356771", true);
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Has anyone heard of Olympia Publishers in the UK?

They offered me a contract for my adult novel, Stepping Out of the Dark. Just wanted to see if they were legit, etc...

A troubling question, IMO. Did you or an agent submit to them? If so, shouldn't you have already known if they were legit?

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On 3/9/05 under a thread LDS in Christian Genre Forum, Momwrites, didn't you post -

I got a contract with American Book Publishing but thank goodness didn't sign it! I will NEVER pay to have my book in print-my first book was published with Xlibris, when they did it for FREE!! How gulliable do they think we are? VERY~

How did your book get into Publish America's hands?

======================

10-12-2005, 05:51 PM #26164 (http://showpost.php?p=356808&postcount=26164) momwrites (http://member.php?u=849) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356808", true);
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I was SCAMMED! Plain and simple! PA didn't make me give them one red dime to publish, but then I found out they were a scam and I didn't buy one single copy, therefore; they didn't make any money off of me, period! Since that time, I have pushing two other books around to publishers and got an offer from Millennial Press to publish my young adult trilogy, which...well, you know the rest...

The reason why I asked about Olympia Publishers is because they are in the UK, new and from their website, I know they are legit...maybe I should have rephased the question. they sent me a letter, along with titles they have published, saying they wanted to offer me a contract. I scrutinized the letter looking for any red flags. One part of it said I would need to be available for books signings, interviews, etc...and that the local promoting would be my responsibity, because, well, their in the U.K., and I'm in the U.S.

They said in the letter they wanted to offer me a contract based on me, myself contributing an amount towards the final cost, which to me, reads, vanity publishing, but I am not sure if they mean with marketing and promotion or the whole publishing costs. I emailed them and told them I wouldn't pay to have my book published and if that was indeed what they wanted me to do, I would have to decline their offer.

I am soooooo leery about publishing companies and there are so many out there, not just the big wigs, that are legit, but how am I to know if they are fairly new and I've never heard from them?

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10-12-2005, 05:53 PM #26165 (http://showpost.php?p=356809&postcount=26165) Richard (http://member.php?u=107) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356809", true);
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If they want money, it's subsidy publishing - or 'vanity', for short. Genuine publishers don't need your money to put a book out.

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10-12-2005, 05:54 PM #26166 (http://showpost.php?p=356812&postcount=26166) momwrites (http://member.php?u=849) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356812", true);
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I submitted my manuscript to them. At first it was a synopsis, then they wanted the whole manuscript. I sent it and then yesterday, I got a letter in the mail, saying they wanted to offer me a contract.

I was not familiar with them and know they're not a scam. Like I said, I should have rephrased my question. I just wanted to see if anyone knew anything about them was all.

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10-12-2005, 05:56 PM #26167 (http://showpost.php?p=356816&postcount=26167) momwrites (http://member.php?u=849) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356816", true);
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Sorry, the last post was meant for Sassenach.

====================

10-12-2005, 06:05 PM #26168 (http://showpost.php?p=356823&postcount=26168) Aconite (http://member.php?u=1179) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356823", true);
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momwrites, Richard is correct. So-called "subsidy" publishing, in which an author contributes part (supposedly; that portion of the costs often turns out to be the full amount) of the cost of publishing, is vanity publishing. Period. No matter how they dress it up, what they call it, or how they justify it. It's vanity.

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10-12-2005, 06:11 PM #26169 (http://showpost.php?p=356831&postcount=26169) Richard (http://member.php?u=107) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356831", true);
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I was not familiar with them and know they're not a scam. Like I said, I should have rephrased my question. I just wanted to see if anyone knew anything about them was all.

I don't know them at all, but I'm curious how you know they're not a scam.

=======================

10-12-2005, 06:21 PM #26170 (http://showpost.php?p=356847&postcount=26170) momwrites (http://member.php?u=849) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356847", true);
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I don't know them at all, but I'm curious how you know they're not a scam.

Richard,

they have sent me titles of their published books, and no, that doesn't mean they are legit or not, but I didn't just "happen to find them." I subscribe to FirstAlert which lets me know when publishers are looking for authors to submit manuscripts to them. I checked their name on Google and I'll I see is a few books that were published by them, but nothing else.

I am very leery and don't know what to believe anymore, that is why I am questioning, questioning, questioning...so I don't get SCAMMED again!

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10-12-2005, 06:23 PM #26172 (http://showpost.php?p=356851&postcount=26172) Richard (http://member.php?u=107) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356851", true);
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Momwrites, that's a lot of words to not answer my question.

======================

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Momwrites, that's a lot of words to not answer my question.

Ok, then hears a short, simple answer to your question. No, I don't know if they are legit. That is what I am trying to find out. When I sent my manuscript to PA, I didn't find anything bad about them; their contract was read by three people, including a lawyer. So, my bad.

=======================

10-12-2005, 06:45 PM #26174 (http://showpost.php?p=356882&postcount=26174) Aconite (http://member.php?u=1179) vbmenu_register("postmenu_356882", true);
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I subscribe to FirstAlert which lets me know when publishers are looking for authors to submit manuscripts to them.
This alone should set off alarms. Legit commercial publishers don't have to advertise for submissions. They have more submissions than they know what to do with. Have you ever seen Random House advertise for manuscripts? (Rarely, you'll see major publishers put out calls for submissions for themed anthologies and the like. But that's rare, and it's a different situation.)

I checked their name on Google and I'll I see is a few books that were published by them, but nothing else.
What you want to do is go to your area bookstores and see if this publisher's books are on the shelves. If not, odds are good they have no distribution--and I can already tell you they're not, because this is a vanity publisher. Online listings mean diddly squat. I can list books that don't physically exist and never will.

You do not want to go any further with this publisher. What you want to do, instead, is go back and read this entire thread, which will give you an excellent education in how publishing works, how to find a good publisher, and how to weed out the scammers and bad deals. It's a long thread, but it's worth it. Look around the rest of AW, too. There's a lot here you can use.

Good luck!

=========================

[James D. Macdonald]

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Ok, then hears a short, simple answer to your question. No, I don't know if they are legit. That is what I am trying to find out. When I sent my manuscript to PA, I didn't find anything bad about them; their contract was read by three people, including a lawyer. So, my bad.
I agree with you, momwrites, I too intend to do as much research as possible before I ever run the risk of being scammed again! This forum is a great place to ask, since there are many experienced authors here.

However, I imagine the best way to ask whether a publisher is legit or not is by starting a new thread under "Bewares and Background Check".

Here's a few Website addresses which you probably already have, but just in case you don't...

Book Publishers
(http://../novels/find_a_book_publisher.htm)Writer Beware (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/)
Preditors & Editors (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/)
Writer's Market (http://www.writersmarket.com/wmns/about.asp)

===================





esterday, 07:50 AM #26173 (http://showpost.php?p=357387&postcount=26173) Aconite (http://member.php?u=1179) vbmenu_register("postmenu_357387", true);
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However, I imagine the best way to ask whether a publisher is legit or not is by starting a new thread under "Bewares and Background Check".
CaoPaux created and maintains the excellent Index to Agent, Publishers, and Others (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792) at the top of the BABC main page. Check there first to see if the publisher, agency, or company already has a thread. (And give CaoPaux rep points. The Index kicks butt.)

==============================

esterday, 10:28 AM #26175 (http://showpost.php?p=357527&postcount=26175) momwrites (http://member.php?u=849) vbmenu_register("postmenu_357527", true);
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However, I imagine the best way to ask whether a publisher is legit or not is by starting a new thread under "Bewares and Background Check".

Here's a few Website addresses which you probably already have, but just in case you don't...

Book Publishers
(http://../novels/find_a_book_publisher.htm)Writer Beware (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/)
Preditors & Editors (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/)
Writer's Market (http://www.writersmarket.com/wmns/about.asp)

Thanks for your suggestion. All I know about them is that they are new, as of Jan, 2005 and the information they sent me in the mail regarding books they have published or are going to publish.

=====================

[James D. Macdonald]

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They said in the letter they wanted to offer me a contract based on me, myself contributing an amount towards the final cost, which to me, reads, vanity publishing, but I am not sure if they mean with marketing and promotion or the whole publishing costs. I emailed them and told them I wouldn't pay to have my book published and if that was indeed what they wanted me to do, I would have to decline their offer.


Mainstream publishers will NEVER ask you to contribute toward any costs, any time, for any reason. They will offer you an advance, and take on the costs which they will be reimbursed for when your book sells. There is NO legitimate reason to give a publisher money toward the cost of publishing your book.

==================

[James D. Macdonald]

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I subscribe to FirstAlert which lets me know when publishers are looking for authors to submit manuscripts to them.Could you post a link to this please? Sounds like something to investigate as either a great resource or a possible scam.

And, um, PA sux!!!11!!

======================

Yesterday, 12:57 PM #26180 (http://showpost.php?p=357843&postcount=26180) momwrites (http://member.php?u=849) vbmenu_register("postmenu_357843", true);
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Could you post a link to this please? Sounds like something to investigate as either a great resource or a possible scam.

And, um, PA sux!!!11!!

I believe it is www.firstalert.com (http://www.firstalert.com/) or just do a search on the engine and see what comes up.

========================

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I believe it is www.firstalert.com (http://www.firstalert.com/) or just do a search on the engine and see what comes up.I did, and all I found were sites for smoke alarms (such as that one), stock quotes, and virus detectors.


ETA: Momwrites, is this the outfit? http://www.firstwriter.com/

[James D. Macdonald]

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ETA: Momwrites, is this the outfit? http://www.firstwriter.com/

Sorry, the URL is www.instantalert.com (http://www.instantalert.com/) not first alert. Basically, you sign up for $2.99 a month and they send you publishers, agents, etc...info, along with their contact info. I got a magazine deal from the site, so it seems to be okay, but the two publishers who I sent my work to, wanted to publish it, but only if I gave them money. Other publishers didn't charge anything, so you just need to weed out those publishers.


===================

Yesterday, 05:15 PM #26209 (http://showpost.php?p=358261&postcount=26209) Aconite (http://member.php?u=1179) vbmenu_register("postmenu_358261", true);
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Sorry, the URL is www.instantalert.com (http://www.instantalert.com/) not first alert. Basically, you sign up for $2.99 a month and they send you publishers, agents, etc...info, along with their contact info. I got a magazine deal from the site, so it seems to be okay, but the two publishers who I sent my work to, wanted to publish it, but only if I gave them money. Other publishers didn't charge anything, so you just need to weed out those publishers.
momwrites, in case you didn't know this, you can get that kind of information for free from many different places, depending on what you write; if you're willing to pay for the info, there are even more, better resources. From what you're saying, this instantalert doesn't screen out the junk; better resources do. (A heads-up: just because publishers don't charge up front doesn't mean you're not going to be asked to pay "critique fees" or "editing fees" or somesuch once they've hooked you.)

==========================

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momwrites, in case you didn't know this, you can get that kind of information for free from many different places, depending on what you write; if you're willing to pay for the info, there are even more, better resources. From what you're saying, this instantalert doesn't screen out the junk; better resources do. (A heads-up: just because publishers don't charge up front doesn't mean you're not going to be asked to pay "critique fees" or "editing fees" or somesuch once they've hooked you.)

I would love to have better resources, if you know of some. I thought they would screen publishers, but I guess not. You're right; you can't trust just anyone out there.

=================

Yesterday, 05:44 PM #26212 (http://showpost.php?p=358298&postcount=26212) Aconite (http://member.php?u=1179) vbmenu_register("postmenu_358298", true);
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momwrites, what's your genre? Most of my resources concentrate on SF, but I'm sure other folks here will chime in with their favorite resources, too.

======================

Yesterday, 05:52 PM #26213 (http://showpost.php?p=358311&postcount=26213) momwrites (http://member.php?u=849) vbmenu_register("postmenu_358311", true);
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momwrites, what's your genre? Most of my resources concentrate on SF, but I'm sure other folks here will chime in with their favorite resources, too.

Well, I have a fantasy series for children I would like info on soon, but the one I am marketing now is more experimental/drama, because it deals with mental illness in a fictional format, so I am not sure if it fits into the norm genre.

=======================

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Sorry, the URL is www.instantalert.com (http://www.instantalert.com/) not first alert. Basically, you sign up for $2.99 a month and they send you publishers, agents, etc...info, along with their contact info. I got a magazine deal from the site, so it seems to be okay, but the two publishers who I sent my work to, wanted to publish it, but only if I gave them money. Other publishers didn't charge anything, so you just need to weed out those publishers.That page is just a search engine/Google trap. What did you pay for?

=====================

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That page is just a search engine/Google trap. What did you pay for?\

Sorry, I am not thinking clearly at all. :box: The URL IS www.firstwriter.com (http://www.firstwriter.com/) I think I either need a nap or a slap in the face to wake up.

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\

Sorry, I am not thinking clearly at all. :box: The URL IS www.firstwriter.com (http://www.firstwriter.com/) I think I either need a nap or a slap in the face to wake up.Nah, a good spot of tea'll make you right as rain. :) Thanks!

====================

esterday, 06:43 PM #26219 (http://showpost.php?p=358360&postcount=26219) Aconite (http://member.php?u=1179) vbmenu_register("postmenu_358360", true);
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momwrites, it sounds like the novel you're shopping around now would be general fiction or literary fiction; I'm weak in those areas, resource-wise. I'm sure someone else here can help you more. I'll be able to help you more with the YA fantasy--PM me then. In the meantime, here are some good places to start learning about agent and publisher searches:

Index to Agents, Publishers, and Others (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792). If you go to the fifth post down, you'll find a section on "How do I find and agent and/or publisher?"

Everything You Wanted To Know About Agents (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2005/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.asp), by TNH

Writer Beware (http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/), which has very good articles on searching for agents and evaluating publishers. Also look at Victoria's website (http://www.sff.net/people/victoriastrauss/).

Market resources:
Publishers Marketplace (http://publishersmarketplace.com/)
Ralan's Webstravaganza (http://www.ralan.com/)

Print resources:
Jeff Herman's Guide to Agents (he screens for quality, but some jerks slip through, so check out anyone you're interested in before you submit)
Writer's Market (less screening than JH, but not a bad place to start)

This is a jumbled mess. Sorry. I'm trying to do six things at once, and I'm afraid I'm doing none of them well. I hope this helps a little, at least.

======================

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momwrites, it sounds like the novel you're shopping around now would be general fiction or literary fiction; I'm weak in those areas, resource-wise. I'm sure someone else here can help you more. I'll be able to help you more with the YA fantasy--PM me then. In the meantime, here are some good places to start learning about agent and publisher searches:

Index to Agents, Publishers, and Others (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792). If you go to the fifth post down, you'll find a section on "How do I find and agent and/or publisher?"

Everything You Wanted To Know About Agents (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2005/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.asp), by TNH

Writer Beware (http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/), which has very good articles on searching for agents and evaluating publishers. Also look at Victoria's website (http://www.sff.net/people/victoriastrauss/).

Market resources:
Publishers Marketplace (http://publishersmarketplace.com/)
Ralan's Webstravaganza (http://www.ralan.com/)

Print resources:
Jeff Herman's Guide to Agents (he screens for quality, but some jerks slip through, so check out anyone you're interested in before you submit)
Writer's Market (less screening than JH, but not a bad place to start)

This is a jumbled mess. Sorry. I'm trying to do six things at once, and I'm afraid I'm doing none of them well. I hope this helps a little, at least.

Thanks a ton for these resources. They should help in my quest. :)

========================

Yesterday, 09:29 PM #26225 (http://showpost.php?p=358729&postcount=26225) Jean Marie (http://member.php?u=2459) vbmenu_register("postmenu_358729", true);
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Sorry, the URL is www.instantalert.com (http://www.instantalert.com/) not first alert. Basically, you sign up for $2.99 a month and they send you publishers, agents, etc...info, along with their contact info. I got a magazine deal from the site, so it seems to be okay, but the two publishers who I sent my work to, wanted to publish it, but only if I gave them money. Other publishers didn't charge anything, so you just need to weed out those publishers.

I'm so glad you clarified that. Knowing first alert are the smoke detectors confused the heck out of me. On the other hand, do you think they make scam alerts? You know, the kind of thing that would sound like a hive full of bees buzzing in your ear: Don't sign w/ Scuzz America-bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Yeah, I haven't had much sleep lately.

=======================

[Kasey Mackenzie]

I will say one thing to honor "fair and balanced" consideration - L@rry is the president of PA. I doubt that the president of the company that owns Tor has an office like the ones in the Tor photos. *BUT* if I were president and promoting my publishing company I think I'd at least have a book or two in the picture, even if I had to go borrow them from another office!

Actually, if you scroll to the bottom of the Tor office photos you will find one of Tom Doherty, who is in fact the head of Tor/Tom Doherty Associates. (I'm not sure if he uses the actual title president or not but I know he's the head honcho.) At any rate, you can tell by the piles of stuff on his desk that he actually USES his office, and for publishing related business at that. It's not nearly as sterile-looking as that of Mr. Cl0pper.

[Dawno]

Actually, if you scroll to the bottom of the Tor office photos you will find one of Tom Doherty, who is in fact the head of Tor/Tom Doherty Associates. (I'm not sure if he uses the actual title president or not but I know he's the head honcho.) At any rate, you can tell by the piles of stuff on his desk that he actually USES his office, and for publishing related business at that. It's not nearly as sterile-looking as that of Mr. Cl0pper.

Good catch and thanks! Tom Doherty is a real publisher. :)

I just read their FAQ page (http://www.tor.com/torfaq.html), it's very interesting - especially the submissions guidelines :). I thought they were a subsidiary but apparently they are a separate company rather than an affiliate company.


More recently, in 1998, Holtzbrinck (whom you'll recall are the new majority owners of Macmillan UK and thus of St. Martin's Press) reorganized their American book publishing operations, and as one result Tom Doherty Associates/Tor Books became once again a separate company under the aegis of Holtzbrinck, like Henry Holt, rather than an internal division of St. Martin's Press. However, as a matter of convenience, affinity, and geography, we still share the Flatiron Building and several service departments with St. Martin's Press.

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

Egem:

Wow okay, I really thought we were talking about the nature of publishing here. I felt as though this board would be a good place to post about writing. PA was simply as starting point. I have never been so quickly attacked. I am done with this board.

I see a few well published writers really misleading the rest of these people that post here. They make it seem like getting published at a large publishing house is the only way to go. This is of course not true. I think it is a good thing to have a wide range of options in publishing. I had hoped to talk about the fine line that PA is walking and really get people to understand that it is a publishing option but you must, as with any publisher, be very careful in working with them. Yes if you publish scifi or other very popular genres trying to get into a large publishing house is the way to go, but in truth, not everyone writes in these genres. If you want to publish a cookbook for example you may not be considered a writer by the good Dr. or Ms. Mass, but some would like to go that route and still be respected by a community of writers. I'm not sure what this board is about. It seemed like a fun and kind place, but the more I post real questions the more sour the air turns.

I have no stake in this. I really only had a question and didn't want to read 1000 pages of attacks. Wow what a group of people you have here. How kind how welcoming. To the good Dr. it seems from your bio you have done some real good in the world and are a truely kind person. Is the a place for you? To Ms. Mass I would only say make sure all these writers get a real picture of what it takes to become a writer. That is how you can help them.

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

Liz James:

I came on here with a similar question, Egem, and was met with much the same degree of hostility and derision. It's really too bad. I feel very sorry for those who are so filled with anger and frustration, that they need to vent on total strangers via an Internet message board. They must be extremely unhappy individuals. You have made some excellent, and totally valid points. It's been a pleasure reading your input.

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

Aconite:

egem, you walk in here, read NONE of the backthread, read none of the hundreds of other threads on this board, post factually incorrect information in the guise of offering expert experience, and threaten to go off in a huff when people respond to that. What, exactly, do you expect to happen in situations like that?

If you want people to be polite to you, try being polite to them.

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

rekirts:

They are related! ;-) <indicates light-hearted joking (as opposed to dripping sarcasm.)

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

Jean Marie:

Originally Posted by egem
Dr. Macdonald are you acting like you don't have an agenda? Do you own a publishing house? I'm sorry if you do not, and I got this fact wrong. As a sci fi writer it seems like you would be all for a nontraditional way to publish. Also, if I dove into your background what would I find?


Several things concern me here: You've got a BFA in writing and you're a school teacher??? Hmm, do you take a few seconds to edit/proof your posts before clicking on submit? I swear this is not an attack, but, it's a perfect example of how PA does not edit a darn thing. You submitted a post as is. And that is how you would receive your printed book-PA is a printer, not to be confused w/ a publisher.

What shocks me at the moment, is your unfounded attack on Jim McDonald. How dare you! What in hay gives you the right to do such a thing??? How about stepping up to the plate w/ YOUR identity so we may dive into YOUR background?? Or, do you reside in a glass house?? Since you're in the proverbial shadows; you must. May I suggest a rock?

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

Bufty:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz James
I came on here with a similar question, Egem, and was met with much the same degree of hostility and derision. It's really too bad. I feel very sorry for those who are so filled with anger and frustration, that they need to vent on total strangers via an Internet message board. They must be extremely unhappy individuals. You have made some excellent, and totally valid points. It's been a pleasure reading your input.



Don't bring that up again, Liz, please. :flag: If I post on a Board for the first time, I normally introduce myself briefly either in the posting or separately in the appropriate Newbie Forum as a matter of simple courtesy. Or I give details in the Profile section. That often avoids cases of misunderstanding.
__________________

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

Liz James:

Quote:
Originally Posted by egem
Wow okay, I really thought we were talking about the nature of publishing here. I felt as though this board would be a good place to post about writing. PA was simply as starting point. I have never been so quickly attacked. I am done with this board.


I thought so too, and I guess that was naive, for there are usually agendas. And money is at the root of them. Cast your eyes on the banner ads that pay for this site. And the books on writing instruction that are for sale here.
Quote:
I see a few well published writers really misleading the rest of these people that post here. They make it seem like getting published at a large publishing house is the only way to go. This is of course not true. I think it is a good thing to have a wide range of options in publishing. I had hoped to talk about the fine line that PA is walking and really get people to understand that it is a publishing option but you must, as with any publisher, be very careful in working with them.

The publishing world is changing drastically and just like any other business one must realise this and act accordingly. There is more than just one "valid" way to achieve publication. But then this does not tally with certain motives which dominate here. I wouldn't personally choose PA for a number of reasons, but for some writers it's the way to go. The point to remember is that every situation is different. One size does not fit all. Heck, even manufacturers are changing their labels with the disclaimer: "fits most!" ;-)

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

Aconite:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz James
There is more than just one "valid" way to achieve publication. But then this does not tally with certain motives which dominate here. I wouldn't personally choose PA for a number of reasons, but for some writers it's the way to go. The point to remember is that every situation is different. One size does not fit all. Heck, even manufacturers are changing their labels with the disclaimer: "fits most!" ;-)


Liz, if you'd bothered to read anything on this site--even the backthread here--you'd see that no one is advocating a "one size fits all" way of publication. But you're not interested in finding out what's really being said here; you're interested in making smarmy insinuations and promoting your own agenda while accusing others.

Time to relink an old favorite: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/sho...88&page=1&pp=25 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9588&page=1&pp=25)

Let's not let ourselves be sidetracked, ladies and gentlemen. Momwrites is looking for information, PA's supposed return policy hasn't shown up yet, and there's plenty of material for line-by-lines. Pick a topic and run with it. :)

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

rekirts:

I see a few well published writers really misleading the rest of these people that post here. They make it seem like getting published at a large publishing house is the only way to go. Well, I'm pretty new here. I'm a published writer, but not a 'well published' one. I certainly didn't get the impression from anyone here that a large publishing house was the only way to go. The impression I got was that avoiding scams was the only way to go. I have not been dissuaded by anyone from my inclination to seek out small legitimate publishers for my work. I have also learned that if I were to choose self-publication, which is given as an acceptable option, I should go with a company like lulu.com which will not rip me off.

I didn't come in here looking for a fight so I didn't see 'agendas' lurking in every shadow. Personally, I don't ever notice banners so I don't see them as part of an 'agenda'--hidden or otherwise. ;-)

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

Argile:

Egem, you have to be in "it" to comment about "it". The vast majority of individuals who place Posts on this forum have 'been there, done that' with regards to PublishAmerica.

If you had gleamed through at least one quarter of the Posts that have been generated by individuals who have been injured by PublishAmerica, you would have been educated in the many paths that these individuals have taken which have lead to a dead-end in their fight to get out of their contracts, and their efforts to keep that printing company "honest".

I possess an Honorary Masters Degree from TSHK (The School of Hard Knocks). In addition, I have at least thirty-three years of corporate and retail experience. One would think that this writer would have enough smarts not to get snared in PublishAmerica's web of lies and deceit.

Mark Twain said it best: "You learn all your life and still die ignorant."

I see no evidence of any Poster attacking you. However, I do see evidence that you jumped into a conversation with out first doing the research, which would had given credibility to your contribution on the subject matter which is on the table.

If you have been published by a mainstream book publishing company, then it would benefit everyone if you could share your experiences, and educate everyone on how you made that happen. Write what you know and have experienced.

Argile Stox

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT.

Liz James:

Liz, if you'd bothered to read anything on this site--even the backthread here--you'd see that no one is advocating a "one size fits all" way of publication. But you're not interested in finding out what's really being said here; you're interested in making smarmy insinuations and promoting your own agenda while accusing others.
Do I detect just a touch of paranoia here? What IS "my" agenda, pray tell? ;-)

[Aconite]

I thought so too, and I guess that was naive, for there are usually agendas. And money is at the root of them. Cast your eyes on the banner ads that pay for this site. And the books on writing instruction that are for sale here.
Yes, cast your eyes at those ads. Do you see the little blurb in the lower right-hand corner that says, "Ads by Google"? Are you aware that Google ads are content-driven? People with G-mail accounts see this, too: keywords in the content of the site bring up certain ads linked to those words. On a site about writing and publishing, ads about writing and publishing will be displayed. On a site about cats, ads about cats will be displayed. Google, not Absolute Write, controls which companies are advertised there, and Google, not Absolute Write, gets paid by those companies.

As for Jenna's book being advertised here--didn't you champion author self-promotion? When did that change?

[JennaGlatzer]

Thanks very much. Google does control which ads appear, but I can ban urls one at a time. I've banned Whitmorepublishing twice, but it looks like they purposely misspelled their url now (whtimorepublishing) to get around this! Unreal.

We get a few cents each time someone clicks on an ad, and that helps us pay for the hosting fees for this site. (Google gets the rest of the money.)

In another shocking twist about how real publishers promote-- NOMAD PRESS paid for that banner ad you see for my book. Yes, that's right... my publisher paid my ad director to advertise my book on my website. Nice, huh? They also paid for Amazon's "buy x, get y" promotion, they sent discount offers to writers' groups, they brought the book to BEA with a giant poster, sent tons of review copies, sent out postcards, sent flyers to writers' conferences, listed it in their catalog, inform the sales reps every time I do a new interview, sold book club rights, etc. And they're a very small publisher.

But I've banned Liz James now because she/he hasn't contributed anything worthwhile and continues to bait people. Enough is enough.

[robeiae]

Gee, I was hoping to see Liz implode...

Rob :)

[Richard]

Don't worry, someone TOTALLY NOT LIZ will be along in a few minutes to point out the burning censorship and evil fascist dictatorship.

[JennaGlatzer]

:roll: It does get predictible, doesn't it?

Egem, I really am interested in talking with you, but I feel like it should probably be its own thread... I'll go start a "How Real Publishing Works" thread on the Bewares board and maybe we can take it from there.

[Lady of Prose]

Ported from NEPAT.

rekirts:

They are related! ;-) <indicates light-hearted joking (as opposed to dripping sarcasm.)

Yep! First cousins! :popcorn:

[DaveKuzminski]

I think I know who egem and Liz James are. It's hard for them to disguise their personalities or their writing skills which I've seen before. They're here solely to disrupt the warnings to other writers in order to help PA.

Really, egem and Liz, you need to learn a lot more about character assassination before you attempt it. You're nothing but rank amateurs and not even good amateurs at that! Tell Willem to send someone better next time.

[Birol]

Ah, I see why egem made the doctor reference in relation to Jim.

If you plug "James D. MacDonald" into Google, the first link you get is for Madhouse Manor (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/), the homepage of Debra Doyle and our own James D. MacDonald. The second link you get is for a James D. MacDonald who is a doctor specializing in helping language delayed children (http://www.jamesdmacdonald.org/Articles/AboutDrMacDonald.html). Dr. MacDonald is located in Ohio. Dr. MacDonald also has written six non-fiction books, at least one of which was published by Jessica Kingsley Publishers (http://www.jkp.com/catalogue/author.php/id/1099) in London. Further down the first page of results, intermingled with additional websites promoting the science fiction writing of our Uncle Jim, you encounter a James D. MacDonald who is a plant pathologist (http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/datastore/detailreport.cfm?usernumber=154&surveynumber=173) at the University of California.

James D. MacDonald is a fairly common name, egem, and these are not necessarily all the same individual. Some additional cross-checking might be in order.

[robeiae]

What a lovely post...

Rob :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Incoming from the NEPAT....

[James D. Macdonald]

Today, 01:06 AM #26337 (http://showpost.php?p=360457&postcount=26337) Elizabeth James (http://member.php?u=4730) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360457", true);
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It is ironic, that a message board which criticises Publish America for censoring and banning posters who do not tow the party line, does exactly the same thing itself. Isn’t this the height of hypocrisy? ;-)

I merely drew attention to the banner ads all over this site which sell everything from publishing to writing courses. This is a business, and these are its sponsors. It is not a charity, nor some sort of altruistic support system that loves writers, although it appears to masquerade as such. And isn’t this just the sort of misrepresentation that Publish America is being so loudly criticised for?

When advice is given by someone with a vested interest of any sort, it must be treated accordingly. Doesn’t anyone here see that? I am not pro PA, just trying to see the wider picture.

Care to bet that this post will disappear as quickly as the last one? ;-)

==========================

oday, 01:14 AM #26338 (http://showpost.php?p=360461&postcount=26338) NicoleJLeBoeuf (http://member.php?u=54) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360461", true);
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It is ironic, that a message board which criticises Publish America for censoring and banning posters who do not tow the party line, does exactly the same thing itself.You weren't banned for not toeing the line. You were banned for rudeness, baiting, and other troll-like behavior.

(Whereas at PA people get banned for asking perfectly polite questions about their royalties statements.)

And your posts didn't disappear. They were moved to a more appropriate forum. (http://showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=15336)

(Whereas at PA people's posts do simply just disappear.)

Banning users and moving posts is something that happens on any moderated message board, lest a minority of bad apples destroy the place with inappropriate behavior. The difference is in the reasons for the moderation, and the behavior that's considered appropriate. I dare say that if you post rude, trollish, baiting messages on PA's message board (an you be a PA author and be granted a login), your posts and your password will remain for posterity as long as you are rude, trollish, and baiting on PA's behalf.

Isn’t this the height of hypocrisy? ;-) No, but tacking a smiley onto the end of a deliberately inflammatory sentence is one of the peaks in the mountain range of obnoxiousness.

======================

oday, 01:16 AM #26339 (http://showpost.php?p=360464&postcount=26339) Rose colored glasses (http://member.php?u=3899) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360464", true);
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Blah blah blah blah.....*snore*

Oh! Excuse me. Anyway, the difference between any ads on this site ( which no doubt help pay for the server fees, as message boards aren't free) and PA is that no one on this board is required in any way to purchase anything, sign anything, or enter into a contract to post here. I've never purchased anything, nor have I been asked to or even advised to.
To be part of the PA board you must have a signed contract with them, and their website is partially designed to lure in new contractees. It's not meant to help the writing community at large, and if you read other forums here, you'd see that there is a wealth of information to help writers.

=========================

oday, 01:18 AM #26340 (http://showpost.php?p=360465&postcount=26340) Rose colored glasses (http://member.php?u=3899) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360465", true);
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Nicole said:

No, but tacking a smiley onto the end of a deliberately inflammatory sentence is one of the peaks in the mountain range of obnoxiousness.

I just had to repeat that, Nicole, as it is a masterpiece.:Clap:

====================

Today, 01:28 AM #26341 (http://showpost.php?p=360470&postcount=26341) NicoleJLeBoeuf (http://member.php?u=54) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360470", true);
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Rose--your latest comments. Too kind. *blush*

And as for those just before...
[T]he difference between any ads on this site ( which no doubt help pay for the server fees, as message boards aren't free) and PA is that no one on this board is required in any way to purchase anything, sign anything, or enter into a contract to post here. I've never purchased anything, not have I been asked to or even advised to. To be part of the PA board you must have a signed contract with them....This is true. Well, there are ways around it, but they are nefarious, as they involve pretending to be someone you're not. And it's universally frowned upon to post in a message board under someone else's name.

As for this board, it isn't a charity, true--or at least it's not a not-for-profit outfit, that I know of--but it is a site founded on the spirit of writer advocacy. Hence the especial popularity of the Bewares board and the NEPAT in particular. Seeing writers be taken advantage of and abused tends to burn the regulars up, and the thing about burnt writers is, they aren't silent about it.

=========================
Today, 02:19 AM #26344 (http://showpost.php?p=360484&postcount=26344) FolkloreFanatic (http://member.php?u=4468) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360484", true);
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images/reputation/reputation_pos.gifPlease detect the sarcasm; that's what the smileys are for!


It is ironic, that a message board which criticises Publish America for censoring and banning posters who do not tow the party line, does exactly the same thing itself. Isn’t this the height of hypocrisy? ;-)

You know, I'm all for the occasional :), :-), ;) or even XD. It's faster than explaining what your face is doing at that moment, and WHEN USED SPARINGLY, conveys to your audience that you mean no offense, etc. However, this goes beyond any abuse of smileys I have seen save for adolescent babble.

Why do you tack on an idiotic wink at the end of every other sentence?
Do you wink after every nonsensical thing you say in real life?
Are you compelled to type those keys because of OCD or dyslexia (for which I would be far more forgiving)?
Is everything a joke to you?
Do you honestly believe that everything you say is funny?
Are we supposed to be in one some secret message embedded in your numerous misconceptions and irrelevant statments?

Just asking. ;-) Because, like, you know. ;-) People might get ideas. ;-) As in thinking you're a bit neurotic. ;-)

=======================

ay, 02:48 AM #26346 (http://showpost.php?p=360500&postcount=26346) LloydBrown (http://member.php?u=2720) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360500", true);
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I merely drew attention to the banner ads all over this site which sell everything from publishing to writing courses. This is a business, and these are its sponsors. It is not a charity, nor some sort of altruistic support system that loves writers, although it appears to masquerade as such. And isn’t this just the sort of misrepresentation that Publish America is being so loudly criticised for?

No, it just shows that you don't know what you're talking about. The banner advertisers pay vBulletin for rotations by selected keywords or topics. They are not here at the request of the board host. In other words, they chose AW, not the other way around.

===================

Today, 07:00 AM #26349 (http://showpost.php?p=360572&postcount=26349) Christine N. (http://member.php?u=101) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360572", true);
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Not only that, Elizabeth, but Jenna has the ability to blacklist any advertisers she doesn't think are productive. Like PA. And we (the collective 'we') have no beef with self or POD publishers who are upfront about what they are, like booksurge or Xlibris. It's the swindling bastards with no moral compass that we object to.

And, like someone said, you're posts are on the Nepat overflow board, not deleted. Please bother to read the comments when you see deleted comments before you make snap decisions.

Just so you know ;)

======================

Today, 07:33 AM #26350 (http://showpost.php?p=360587&postcount=26350) Aconite (http://member.php?u=1179) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360587", true);
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It is ironic, that a message board which criticises Publish America for censoring and banning posters who do not tow the party line, does exactly the same thing itself. Isn’t this the height of hypocrisy?
Note that others here who don't "toe (note correct spelling) the party line" haven't been banned--just rude, obnoxious people who obstruct polite, informative discussion. Note also that obnoxious people who do "toe the party line" get banned, too. Obnoxious people, regardless of ideological stand, get banned.

I merely drew attention to the banner ads all over this site which sell everything from publishing to writing courses. This is a business, and these are its sponsors. It is not a charity, nor some sort of altruistic support system that loves writers, although it appears to masquerade as such. And isn’t this just the sort of misrepresentation that Publish America is being so loudly criticised for?
You didn't bother to go to the NEPAT Overflow thread and read the response to that the first time, but that doesn't surprise me. Here it is again: See the little "Ad by Google" blurb in the lower right-hand corner of those banner ads? Those ads are content relevant. People with G-mail accounts see this, too. Keywords in the content of the site bring up certain ads linked to those keywords. Content about writing and publishing bring up writing- and publishing-related ads. Keywords about cats bring up cat-related advertising. Google, not AW, selects the companies that advertise through Google ads, and Google, not AW, collects the money from those companies.

As for the ad for Jenna's book, weren't you championing author self-promotion? When did that change, eh? But in any event, the publisher--Nomad Press--paid for the ad. How about that?

========================

[James D. Macdonald]

Today, 09:11 AM #26343 (http://showpost.php?p=360632&postcount=26343) Ken Schneider (http://member.php?u=1391) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360632", true);
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It is ironic, that a message board which criticises Publish America for censoring and banning posters who do not tow the party line, does exactly the same thing itself. Isn’t this the height of hypocrisy? ;-)

It is also easy to see that this site is a wealth of information for writers.

You only need to look at the writing board at PA to see it has nothing to do with the art and craft of writing.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewforum.php?f=11&sid=bbe91eb51f9cf11e47963577531b78d6
As you know, Liz, I complained about this, and was lambasted by others who said they could post wherever they wanted. PA let it stand as such, because that's not what they are about. You also know that, Mary, Roger, Charles, Danny,and yourself, gave good, valuble, writing information to posters.

Where is that information now?

Why don't you post good writing lessons and info for the new posters?

Is it a waste of time?

I'll watch for your next lesson.

PA owns their board, controls the board to reflect the hurrah and positive push toward a book buying end. They need to keep their board positive for the public and the,(next victim who happens by)

By PA's own admission, their stable of writers are first time authors, green and ignorant of publishing, just the way they like it. Then, to boot, and are given bad info by those who think they know what they are taking about.

I've read these incorrect statements, knowing the true answer.

I was a PA'er, I know what they are, and what their board is. If a printed writer at PA buys one copy of their own book, the have paid to publish.

If they don't buy any books, they will not sell any. I have found that every sale my book has had comes from someone I have told.

After my time here at AW I am far more advanced in my knowledge of the publishing business. PA hides this information and feeds off the ignorance of the fresh meat. And, if one doesn't,(toe the line) and makes light of the truth, they are banned. Not hard to see why.

The PA board is full of those who just fell off the turnip wagon, and turnip wagon drivers. If the truth were to be told, the turnip wagon wouldn't have any riders, only a few stale old drivers.

Have a good look around the AW site, Liz. Through research and fact finding one can be enlightened. If this truth were passed on, one could be banned.

If PA is so great, why are so many banned from their site?

If PA is so great, why does their board have such a large turnover of posters every royalty period?

If PA is so great, why do they have thousands of unhappy, former authors, nipping at their heels?

If POD is so thrifty a process, why do PA books cost so much?

If PA is not trying to make a ton of money, why don't they give bookstores a better discount so their books are easy to shelve?

I would be willing to bet that if not one PA author bought any of their own books for the next year, PA would be out of business.

They are Vanity, without a doubt. I am sure of that.

========================

Today, 11:02 AM #26344 (http://showpost.php?p=360816&postcount=26344) Sassenach (http://member.php?u=80) vbmenu_register("postmenu_360816", true);
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Stop feeding the troll.

[Old Hack]

When Egem suggested we check out Uncle Jim's background it occurred to me that it might be interesting to find out a little more about Egem. So here's a link to the "about me" page on his website. I particularly like the title he's put up there. Have a look. Seems appropriate.

http://everylitmag.tripod.com/bio.html

[Elizabeth James]

Just a couple of quick points here. I haven't been rude to anyone - as was suggested (I believe) by one poster. Although many posters here have been rude to moi. ;-)

What constitutes an "inflammatory statement" to one, obviously does not to another. And yes, I'm a very cheerful person who believes that laughter is the best medicine. If that spells "neurotic" for some of the folks here, then so be it. But I think this tells you more about them than me. ;-)

As for "baiting" other members...well, I don't think so. I may have been wrong about the banner ads, and if so, I apologise. Now I'm outta here for good, folks. Have a happy life, and remember that lashing out at someone else to try and make them feel as miserable as you do, will only make you feel worse. For what we send out we get back. ;-)

Cheers
Liz

[MacAllister]

Elizabeth James said: Quote: Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald
When PA goes down, I'm sure another scammer will rise up claiming to be a "traditional" publisher. Then we can have a never-ending thread about them, until they too go to jail. Of the making of scams there is no end.

If PA was doing anything in the least bit illegal, with all the shrill that's going on here, I'm sure they would have been charged by now. The fact that they haven't speaks volumes. Or is the AG of Maryland really the owner of PA, or some such conspiracy rubbish that this thread thrives on?


BTW the following is a post of mine that was removed. It must have hit a nerve. I'm posting it again in the hope that it might set alarm bells ringing for someone. One wonders how long it will last this time? ;-)

It is ironic, that a message board which criticises Publish America for censoring and banning posters who do not tow the party line, does exactly the same thing itself. Isn’t this the height of hypocrisy? I merely drew attention to the banner ads all over this site which sell everything from publishing to writing courses.

This is a business, and these are its sponsors. It is not a charity, nor some sort of altruistic support system that loves writers, although it appears to masquerade as such. And isn’t this just the sort of misrepresentation that Publish America is being so loudly criticised for?

When advice is given by someone with a vested interest of any sort, it must be treated accordingly. Doesn’t anyone here see that?

Cheers
Liz

P.S. I wonder who the shareholders are in Lulu.com folks? Now there's a nifty little research project for you.

Gravity said: I thought Liz James got banned? Some folks can't take a hint, I s'pose. But then, PA shills aren't known for their mental acuity. Oh well. Um, Jenna...?

John

Elizabeth James said:
Originally Posted by Gravity
PA shills aren't known for their mental acuity.
John


And AW shills are, is that right? ;-)

Egem said: Elizabeth,

How true your words ring. For all those looking to buy PA books you can go to their site and see that they are selling them for 9.95 and up. I know Elizabeth will be pushed off this site quickly, and I would guess I'm next. Before I would go I would like to say that large publishing house and the writers that write for them would never like to see a company like PA make it. I think the company was a great idea. Also Elizabeth you are so right about taking advice from people and from this forum. Even MFA graduates seem to be attacked by uncle Jim for being too brainy and too concerned with their own works. Well I guess that just goes as one more section of publishing that is not commercial and should not exist.

Richard said: P.S. I wonder who the shareholders are in Lulu.com folks? Now there's a nifty little research project for you.

Do they even have any? Anyway, not that it matters. People promote Lulu because of the service and the way it goes about offering it, up to and including saying flat out that it's not a publishing company, not because it was founded by Bob Young of RedHat.

Even MFA graduates seem to be attacked by uncle Jim for being too brainy and too concerned with their own works. Well I guess that just goes as one more section of publishing that is not commercial and should not exist.

This is an interesting quote from someone who responded to Jim's metaphor on the subject (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=361007&postcount=40) with, and I quote:

James I have to say while I was reading this I was lol. It is very funny and all very true.

I believe I am now fully entitled to call you a 'weasel', and regard any future post you make on any subject as not being worth the pixels they're printed with. You have entered Troll Town, population: You.

Egem said: I don't think you have the right to call me anything you don't know me. Also, whose the troll, did I call you a name and try to start a fight? No, what James said about MFAs was funny, but it did show what he thought of them. Sorry until now I didn't think I needed to take on the great Uncle Jim, but after his tone changed I figured "what the hey."

Richard said: I don't think you have the right to call me anything you don't know me.

Too bad. You openly say 'THIS IS TRUE', then you try to turn it round into an attack. What does that make you, if not a weasel?

[MacAllister]

Egem said: Okay you are moving our messages to the overflow and no else????? You insult me for what? Because I don't agree with your point of view? What kind of board is this anyway? Are you going to remove the post that calls me a weasel? Does that fall under a PA post? What crap. There are two people an this board with a different view from the rest and we are being told by to leave. What a great writing community you have here. No one let those guys speak they might say something that goes against what I said.

You're right though I am the one causing all the problems coming in with my "views." This isn't a writing community it is a playground and ego trip for a couple of writers who like to be worshiped by others who wish they could be published. No wonder PA is attacked on this board someone might be able to publish something that doesn't go along with"commercial" publishers.

[Jean Marie]

Just a couple of quick points here. I haven't been rude to anyone - as was suggested (I believe) by one poster. Although many posters here have been rude to moi. ;-)

What constitutes an "inflammatory statement" to one, obviously does not to another. And yes, I'm a very cheerful person who believes that laughter is the best medicine. If that spells "neurotic" for some of the folks here, then so be it. But I think this tells you more about them than me. ;-)

As for "baiting" other members...well, I don't think so. I may have been wrong about the banner ads, and if so, I apologise. Now I'm outta here for good, folks. Have a happy life, and remember that lashing out at someone else to try and make them feel as miserable as you do, will only make you feel worse. For what we send out we get back. ;-)
CheerLiz

You've been incredibly insulting and have refused to listen to anyone except yourself. I, for one, am delighted you and your winkie are leaving. So, why's your light still on-trouble packing all those wittle winkies??

You've argued and insulted way beyond basic obnoxious. PA is stealing my work, why is that alright w/ you?? Are you aware that stealing is a crime????

[MacAllister]

Elizabeth James said: You sound familiar, Beth Bernobich. You're brand new here and yet you jump right in with such familiar sounding rhetoric and even send ugly comments via private messages. That's quite a burden on your shoulder old girl. Methinks that if you don't knock it off, it will devour thee. Now let me guess who you REALLY are...;-) Great name though, it suits you.


Cheers
Liz

(edited for misspelling)

[Richard]

I've never heard of her, but setting up a whole website full of content on SFF, complete with publishing record and competition information, would seem quite a lot of work to go to just to send you messages from a fake account.

[MacAllister]

Richard, I rather suspect it's a variation of "The Lurkers Support Me in Email"...

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

There's an old saying in the human resources business, Liz: Perception is reality.

IOW: It doesn't really matter what YOU think when it comes to the persona you believe you're showing the world. It really only matters what THE WORLD thinks. And this world obviously thinks you're a rude troll, a PA shill, and inflammatory to boot. I'd throw in snide, condescending and disengenuous, as well, but no one really asked me what I think... and it doesn't matter to you anyway, right? My saying anything here is really just like trying to teach a pig to sing... in the long run, it would frustrate me and annoy the pig.

Perception IS reality, however. Like it or not. You may think you're the salt of the earth, but if your dog runs out from under the porch and bites you when you get home at night, what does that tell you?

I'll give you one point, however: Karma will getcha sooner or later. What goes around really does come around, but since you obviously didn't do any real damage here at AW, you're likely safe from any negative vibes in this case.

Vivas in pace; Blessed Be; whatever rings your chime. You were amusing while you lasted and you gave us yet another opportunity to educate the masses.

Thanks!

[Richard]

Richard, I rather suspect it's a variation of "The Lurkers Support Me in Email"...

Specifically, the Enigma Variations.

[Jaws]

OK. Now I'm pissed off. I'm not going to quote the particular message; that would be construed as a personal attack, and I'm pissed off by the attitude.

Over the last few years, I've heard lots of whinging implying (or, from the scammers themselves, outright claiming) that if there was anything illegal about business X (or business practice X), the perps would already be in jail—or at least under indictment. The criminal justice process for nonviolent matters is excrutiatingly slow, obscure, and unusual. Remember Enron? Something that obvious? There are still figures from that fiasco awaiting trial—and two awaiting indictment.

This is yet more difficult with white-collar crime in areas unfamiliar to either the law enforcement agents (police, FBI, postal inspectors, whatever) or prosecutors. Just understanding the context—and in white-collar crime, context is everything—takes more time than putting six or eight drug dealers away. Further, the legal standards of proof make things extremely difficult. Remember that in a criminal action in the US, every element must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That I know that, for example, the now-indicted Martha Ivery (http://www.authorslawyer.com/l-publishers.shtml#ivery) never had, never intended, and never intended to obtain the capability to fulfill the contracts she signed with desperate authors is not the same thing as proving such beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law with admissible evidence.

Then there is the time factor. A typical, easy white-collar-crime investigation takes between eighteen months and two years between opening the investigation and indictment. And that's the easy-to-understand stuff, like simple embezzlement, political corruption, and tax fraud. Add another six months to a year for learning a new language and context. Now throw in the fact that most victims of white-collar crime simply do not have the documentation to support their assertions… assuming that they even know they've been conned, and have the courage to expose their naivete to the authorities.

One of the main reasons I'm writing this particular post is to make sure that it's indexable.

N.B. I have been significantly involved in the process of getting Martha Ivery indicted. That's why I can use that matter specifically to demonstrate the difference between "knowing" and "proving": I've been in on the process for several years.

[MacAllister]

Specifically, the Enigma Variations. Ah! Thank you! I was going to have to go and look it up, I'm not as well-versed as I perhaps ought to be. We so seldom have to deal with these less common manifestations, here.

[Dawno]

I'm just horribly disappointed that my attempt to count exactly how many ;-) were used by Liz/Elizabeth here has been thwarted. I was thinking it would be a great submission to the Guinness Book of Records. *sigh*

[Richard]

Ah! Thank you! I was going to have to go and look it up, I'm not as well-versed as I perhaps ought to be. We so seldom have to deal with these less common manifestations, here.

It's a very special form, typically deployed only in special occasions, or when the psychic wave from at least a hundred peoples' foreheads hitting the table in utter disbelief and confusion echoes out across the world.

Also, I don't believe in psychic power. So it must have been a particularly big jolt this time...Oh...the world is still spinning....

[eqb]

I've never heard of her, but setting up a whole website full of content on SFF, complete with publishing record and competition information, would seem quite a lot of work to go to just to send you messages from a fake account.

And with pictures, no less! Plus those reviews of my work, fiction in various magazines, the LiveJournal account, and other traces of me in print and online. However, I'm not surprised if no one has heard of me. I'm a neo-pro, with just a handful of professional publishing credits, and some semi-pro sales, both in short fiction. I don't post here, but I have lurked in various forums for at least a year, having heard of the place through Uncle Jim.

As for nasty messages -- I never sent a PM to Lizzy, but I did rate two (?) of her posts as being rude, troll-like behavior. Perhaps that was wrong of me, but I found her behavior less than constructive.

[MacAllister]

Hi, Beth, and welcome to the Cooler. :) Glad to have you aboard!

[eqb]

Hi, Beth, and welcome to the Cooler. :) Glad to have you aboard!

::waves cheerfully::

::scatters bon-bons::

Thank you. I'm glad to be here. (I'm avoiding my novel WIP at the moment.)

[MacAllister]

(I'm avoiding my novel WIP at the moment.) Hah! You don't think you're alone in that, do you? Just look around--if someone has a green light on in the bottom of their box, it's a good bet...

[Richard]

Heh. I've got two monitors on my desk. This one is being used for an increasingly evening-killing batch of web browsing and playing games; my 'work' machine sitting idly, playing the soundtrack to The Nightmare Before Christmas, with a word processor somewhere on the third desktop layer...

[Jean Marie]

Hah! You don't think you're alone in that, do you? Just look around--if someone has a green light on in the bottom of their box, it's a good bet...


Pffffttttttttttttthttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif I beg to differ; I'm on a breakhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smilepopcorn.gif been kinda interesting today

[rekirts]

Well, I'm not avoiding working on my novel (er...what novel?). I'm avoiding working on anything! :D

[Lady of Prose]

I'm not avoiding either! Muse just upped and walked out after I came to check the NEPA and Overflow. . .Please, everyone, I'm almost finished with my WIP. Stop posting for a while. About a week? :)

Carry on. . .

[momwrites]

I'm not avoiding either! Muse just upped and walked out after I came to check the NEPA and Overflow. . .Please, everyone, I'm almost finished with my WIP. Stop posting for a while. About a week? :)

Carry on. . .

No doubt...I have been reading all these threads, every one and I'm still only at Jan. of this year. I never thought this board would get this long...

[Christine N.]

I'm carefully avoiding a second draft of a second book in a series. Sigh. Only another 156 pages to go.... then I can work on my first draft of the sequel to the book that comes out next month...

JM's right, this has been interesting today. Not only does it keep me from working, it takes my mind off waiting to hear back from agents...

[Jean Marie]

JM's right, this has been interesting today. Not only does it keep me from working, it takes my mind off waiting to hear back from agents...

Soon to be in your spot Christinehttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif can't wait.

Honestly, I need to actually use my calculator. I was so excited about having less than 100 pages left to edit on my ms. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticoncry.gifturns out, it's 135!

[JennaGlatzer]

One quick note: Egem isn't a troll. It's frustrating that he hasn't read the back-story on all this stuff, yes, but I believe he is honestly interested in having a conversation. Let's try again. This thread helped me understand more of where egem is coming from: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20586

[Dawno]

I'm not weighing in on the troll thing at all but Egem did say something in the How Publishing Works thread that got me a bit miffed. I do not believe in being a snob between genres. The only distinction I make between people in general is write or don't write. I am a snob a little when it comes to this, I tend to think that writers are better.

*ahem* where would writers be without readers?? Surely one writes to be read?

[Birol]

I'm not avoiding either! Muse just upped and walked out after I came to check the NEPA and Overflow. . .Please, everyone, I'm almost finished with my WIP. Stop posting for a while. About a week? :)

Carry on. . .

Once again, I have a standing offer to temporarily ban anyone who needs to work on a project but is unable to escape the gravitational pull of AW on their own. I will set the time period according to the individual's specifications and provide my e-mail address for emergency contact should the withdrawal symptoms become too severe so they can request the ban be lifted.*


*Note: Due to technical restrictions, this offer is not open to moderators, administrators, or board owners.

[roach]

And with pictures, no less! Plus those reviews of my work, fiction in various magazines, the LiveJournal account, and other traces of me in print and online. However, I'm not surprised if no one has heard of me. I'm a neo-pro, with just a handful of professional publishing credits, and some semi-pro sales, both in short fiction. I don't post here, but I have lurked in various forums for at least a year, having heard of the place through Uncle Jim.

As for nasty messages -- I never sent a PM to Lizzy, but I did rate two (?) of her posts as being rude, troll-like behavior. Perhaps that was wrong of me, but I found her behavior less than constructive.

I for one can vouch for Beth Bernobich being a real, live, breathing person.

Not that she needs it or anything. *avoids adding a smilie*

[Dawno]

Once again, I have a standing offer to temporarily ban anyone who needs to work on a project but is unable to escape the gravitational pull of AW on their own. I will set the time period according to the individual's specifications and provide my e-mail address for emergency contact should the withdrawal symptoms become too severe so they can request the ban be lifted.*


*Note: Due to technical restrictions, this offer is not open to moderators, administrators, or board owners.

Ever see one of those shows where someone says "no matter what you hear, no matter how hard I beg, DON'T OPEN THE DOOR!!" There's always something behind that door....hijinks ensue.

Anyone ever take you up on that, Lori??

[Birol]

Not yet, but I figure it's only a matter of time.

Jenna tried, but, alas, I cannot ban the boss.

[eqb]

I for one can vouch for Beth Bernobich being a real, live, breathing person.

Thank you!

::waves to Roach::

I told my son that someone thought I was a construct, and he's still laughing.

[Jean Marie]

Jenna tried, but, alas, I cannot ban the boss.

Jenna would be begging to be allowed back on inside of 1 minute anywayhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gif

[rekirts]

:( I turned the computer off, but it didn't help. Too easy to turn it back on again.

[roach]

::waves to Roach::

*waves back to Beth*

I'm supposed to be working right now. That's nothing, though. It's just my work ethic suffering. Earlier tonight my husband, sister and baby had to suffer through my ranting about ignorance of the publishing industry. After my rants my husband told me to either a) lay off the drugs or b) start taking them. :D

[Dawno]

I vote for b.

But that's just me. :)

[rekirts]

Hey Jean Marie, you remember when you got upset with me when I said I would never buy a POD book? Well, I'm here to say, you were right and I was wrong. I'm seriously considering ordering a copy of Atlanta Nights.

[JennaGlatzer]

:roll:

I must warn you about that book, though-- it may make your brain implode.

[Dawno]

She's right. I bought a very early edition and I'll never be the same. This is me before Atlanta Nights
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/Ebil_Librarian/dawnoatworkthumbnail.jpg

and the picture in my AV is me now.

[rekirts]

Meh, I'm not using it anyway. (My brain, that is.)

[JennaGlatzer]

Ported from NEPAT:

From Elizabeth James (banned)


They have stolen my work=criminals.
Have a nice evening.

Your passion is impressive, Jean Marie, but do you really think this sort of florid statement casts you in a flattering light? Basically, you made a poor choice in a business matter, and that is all. Try to control yourself, otherwise YOU could be the one facing criminal charges. For the company that you are calling "criminals" have not, in fact, broken any laws.

BTW, I had a look at your web site. Your book sounds interesting, I like that period myself, lots of atmosphere. However, the first part of your synopsis has too many unnecessary adjectives, and the sentence is too long.

Rose is an innocent, young, idealistic U.S. Army nurse who is living and breathing the horrors of the final six months of WWII, within earshot of the German frontlines, when she falls in love with Albert, a French Resistance fighter.

Might I suggest the following improvements?

Rose is a U.S. Army nurse, living the horror of WW2, within earshot of the German frontlines. She meets and falls in love with Albert, a French Resistance fighter.

[Sassenach]

For someone who claimed to be too busy to post to silly message boards, Miss Liz/Elizabeth's found a great deal of time.

[Dawno]

and if you'll check nepat she's back with a new user id

it's truly time to start using the ignore button folks.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

and if you'll check nepat she's back with a new user id

it's truly time to start using the ignore button folks.I recommend the "report offensive post" function, me.

Edit: Already banned. My, we're getting quick on the draw. :-)

[MacAllister]

:D

[Dawno]

I recommend the "report offensive post" function, me.

Edit: Already banned. My, we're getting quick on the draw. :-)

yep, that's exactly what I did :)

[Birol]

Nicole, shouldn't that be ;-) instead of :-) ?

[Dawno]

Nicole, shouldn't that be ;-) instead of :-) ?

:Clap:

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Oh, meh. Picky, picky, picky.

If it pleases you to imagine me winking, rather than simply smiling in pleasure, you may feel free to do so. You can even imagine me sticking out my tongue and blowing a raspberry if you so desire. Or crossing my eyes and doing my best impression of a grandfather clock.

[AnneMarble]

I've never heard of her, but setting up a whole website full of content on SFF, complete with publishing record and competition information, would seem quite a lot of work to go to just to send you messages from a fake account.
That's a very good point. Sometimes people get so caught up into an on-line argument that they can't see beyond a new name to actually read the substance of the post.

Something like this happened to be in a newsgroup I read often, involving a particular poster. I was actually staying out of the fight (not counting one teensy quip) and trying to post on-topic -- often a rarity in that particular group. I had been posting there for a couple of years by then. One day, I checked the group and found a message from the particular poster analyzing my posts (and mail headers) and postulating that I must be a sock puppet created by a regular poster on the group. Even though the other poster lived on the West coast of the U.S., and I live on the East coast! Now my sigline included three links -- one to my blog (which I had been keeping for a year or two), one to my Writing-World.com column, and one to Forward Motion. He included these in his "analysis," claiming they were all "free sites" that anyone could have created. (While my blog is free, the other two are clearly not! And why would someone create an entire blog pretending to be someone else when she was a busy person with a LIFE?!) In other words, either he was so convinced that I was someone who was "out to get him" that he ignored the obvious clues to the fact that I was someone completely different, or he knew I was someone real and was just trying to pretend I was "fake" to create a firestorm and point fingers and all that.

To say it was annoying and weird would be an understatement.
:box:

[Dawno]

hmmm. Anne, could you fax me some proof of your existance please? :ROFL:

Apparently some folks actually *need* their tinfoil hats. Hasn't the internet made life interesting?

[Lady of Prose]

Once again, e-mail address for emergency contact should the withdrawal symptoms become too severe so they can request the ban be lifted.*


*Note: Due to technical restrictions, this offer is not open to moderators, administrators, or board owners.

Umm...seriously thinking on it. Would it be a total ban? No post, no read? Guess it would have to be, to be effective.

Wiil let you know Monday morning.
Thanks Birol, you're a pal. :hi: :)

[AnneMarble]

hmmm. Anne, could you fax me some proof of your existance please? :ROFL:
:Clap:
Maybe I could get squished and mail myself in an envelope, like Flat Stanley? :D

Apparently some folks actually *need* their tinfoil hats. Hasn't the internet made life interesting?
Heck, now you can even buy tinfoil hats on the Internet!

[Dawno]

:Clap:
Maybe I could get squished and mail myself in an envelope, like Flat Stanley? :D


Heck, now you can even buy tinfoil hats on the Internet!

You're thinking of this site (http://zapatopi.net/afdb/), right? :rolleyes:

[AnneMarble]

You're thinking of this site (http://zapatopi.net/afdb/), right? :rolleyes:
Kool! I hadn't seen that one. I was thinking of the guy who used to sell tinfoil hats for pets on eBay. That one is no longer up, however. :(

[Dawno]

I :heart: Google :)

[Birol]

Umm...seriously thinking on it. Would it be a total ban? No post, no read? Guess it would have to be, to be effective.

Wiil let you know Monday morning.
Thanks Birol, you're a pal. :hi: :)

I think you'd still be able to read the posts, just not actively participate in the forum. I've only been in real trouble on AW twice, so I don't really know. The first time, Jenna punished me by making me a forum mod. (Not certain what I did to become a SuperMod.) The second time, I was new to Supermodding, overreacted on a situation without finding out all of the facts, and was asked to apologize, which I did.

[Lady of Prose]

You in trouble, Birol? Why, I never! :)



After my little whining gig, I decided to do some self-imposed writing homework, and check out some online "head-hopping" articles. I want to make sure I'm making smooth scene transitions. Lo and behold! I found a rather good article by our own Anne Marble!

Good article Anne, I picked up some good points.
Here's the link, if you all want to peek. I think it goes back some time, but a good read.

Now I'm off. See ya all later!




http://www.writing-world.com/fiction/headhop.shtml

[JennaGlatzer]

The first time, Jenna punished me by making me a forum mod.

:roll:

Actually, banning (even temporary banning) means you wouldn't be able to read or post. But the handy-dandy new category I created today, called "Taking a Short Break," means you can read but not post. Pick your poison.

Oh, and Lori's not kidding. I did ask to be banned once, she did try, and the system told her she couldn't ban the boss. Or something like that.

[JennaGlatzer]

P.S. Neat article, Anne! I'd never heard of "headhopping" before (probably because I don't write novels). A good explanation.

[Lady of Prose]

Like the new picture Jenna!

Hey, I'm serious about a self-imposed break. I should be studying or writing now, and here I am!

It was great reading Anne's article. I learn so much from you guys.

I was concerned because someone who was proofing for me said they thought I did a POV change incorrectly. But from everything I had read, I didn't think so, but rather then assume them to be wrong I went hunting and found Anne, and she proved me right. Made my early morning surfing worth the while. :)

Edit, edit--Jenna, Lori--lock me out until Wed. 19, 8 p.m. Pacific. Don't let me back in, even if I ask. I gotta write!

At one time in my life I was disciplined and had BIC in control!

By all! Carry on.

Oh, and cheers! ;o)

[Jean Marie]

Ported from NEPAT:

From Elizabeth James (banned)


Your passion is impressive, Jean Marie, but do you really think this sort of florid statement casts you in a flattering light? Basically, you made a poor choice in a business matter, and that is all. Try to control yourself, otherwise YOU could be the one facing criminal charges. For the company that you are calling "criminals" have not, in fact, broken any laws.

BTW, I had a look at your web site. Your book sounds interesting, I like that period myself, lots of atmosphere. However, the first part of your synopsis has too many unnecessary adjectives, and the sentence is too long.

Rose is an innocent, young, idealistic U.S. Army nurse who is living and breathing the horrors of the final six months of WWII, within earshot of the German frontlines, when she falls in love with Albert, a French Resistance fighter.

Might I suggest the following improvements?

Rose is a U.S. Army nurse, living the horror of WW2, within earshot of the German frontlines. She meets and falls in love with Albert, a French Resistance fighter.

I changed it dirtwipehttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[James D. Macdonald]

Hey Jean Marie, you remember when you got upset with me when I said I would never buy a POD book? Well, I'm here to say, you were right and I was wrong. I'm seriously considering ordering a copy of Atlanta Nights.

If you do, thank you!

Meanwhile, I have a problem that y'all can help with.

Remember back last spring when Atlanta Nights came out, and some moron went flaming around posting "reviews" of other books at Amazon, claiming to be "Travis Tea, Living Large Through Atlanta Nights" and suchlike?

Despite numerous requests, Amazon has refused to remove those "reviews," even though they are clearly not reviews of the books where the "reviews" were placed, and in fact are meant to cause harm to me.

(See, for example, the "review" by this false Travis of Puddles (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1588511391) by Lynn Barry.)


Well, folks, could you go over to Amazon, all of you, and click on the "Report this" button of all of these reviews?

Here's how to find all of them: Go over to Amazon. Find "People" as an Amazon category. (One easy way to do this: Find any review of a book at all. Click on the "See more reviews by" link by the reviewer's name. That'll take you to the people page.

Search on "Travis Tea" in the search box at the top left of the page. You'll come up with 28 of them. Go to their reviews. (You need to click on the "livin large thru atlanta nights" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3L5NT96BFIBZS/ref=cm_pdp_search_alias_profile/102-1379141-5846559) or whatever link under the name.) That'll show you the "reviews" (if any) by that screen name. Follow the links to each one -- you'll have to go ot the book's page itself -- to find the review and report it as inappropriate. A bit over 100 clicks is all I'm asking.

Use your "Back" button to return to the list of the 28 jerks, and do it again.

Once you get to that list of 28, it'll take four clicks per name to report those reviews. You'll get my eternal thanks if we can erase that scum.

[eqb]

Meanwhile, I have a problem that y'all can help with.

Done! I found just one review left, and have reported it as inappropriate.

[AnneMarble]

Good article Anne, I picked up some good points.


Thanks! Blush blush :o

And while we're at it... :thankyou:

[DaveKuzminski]

Anne, what's the URL to that article on headhopping?

[AnneMarble]

Anne, what's the URL to that article on headhopping?
:banana: URL, what URL? (http://www.writing-world.com/fiction/headhop.shtml):banana:

[Dawno]

Thank you Anne! That one is going in my list!

[rekirts]

If you do, thank you!

Done! And you're welcome. :D

Just reading the reviews for Atlanta Nights is a hoot.

[Jean Marie]

Hey Jean Marie, you remember when you got upset with me when I said I would never buy a POD book? Well, I'm here to say, you were right and I was wrong. I'm seriously considering ordering a copy of Atlanta Nights.

Ha! Good for youhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif I hear it's literary genius. Let me know what you think and maybe I'll buy a copy.

[Ken Schneider]

Meanwhile, I have a problem that y'all can help with.

Remember back last spring when Atlanta Nights came out, and some moron went flaming around posting "reviews" of other books at Amazon, claiming to be "Travis Tea, Living Large Through Atlanta Nights" and suchlike


Done.

[SC Harrison]

Hello, all. I am not here to try to disrupt anything and, although there are some aspects of living under a bridge that I find mildly appealing, I am not a troll. Most of the information exposed here is not only correct, it is also very helpful. There are a few issues that have bothered me for some time now, as I have been lurking (could we change this to 'covertly browsing'?) for quite a while:

Many here have stated that money should flow to the author, not away. I like this statement, because it helps me focus on what my true goal should be. Yet, there are numerous commercial advertisements ranging from instructional courses, software and publishing/printing services. I'm sure Jenna has vetted these to make sure they're legit, and I don't believe this forum is merely a vehicle to facilitate commerce, but: having experienced authors giving advice and guidance to people who are seeking information, while also providing links to publishing-oriented commercial sites, may appear (to some) as a tacit recommendation for these services, which are not free. May not be a big deal to some, but it bothers me.

Secondly, I have read countless statements here claiming individual PA authors are not the target, they are the victims. I have also read untold derogitory comments directed at them (us), ranging from mild disdain to outright contempt. I am not now and never have been a member of a cult, and I'm neither a "stipid darf" or a "PAvidian". There have also been at least contemplated efforts to embarass PA authors who speak in public about their books, the upcoming Las Vegas thing being the most recent. Granted, not all take part in these questionable tactics, but the silence from the other point of view is deafening.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and there have been some derogitory comments from the other direction. I apologize to those here in the Hall of Justice who may have taken offense at my words (yes, that was a joke), but please don't forget that some people are more sensitive than others, and the message doesn't always justify the hurt it may cause.

I hope this is the right place for this. If not, move it wherever, and I'll try to keep up. Thanks.

Steve

[Ken Schneider]

Sc, My friend from the PA board, Kas here.

I know you know what's up, so I'll leave it at that.

Welcome. Be sure to click on the user cp at the top of the page.

Ken

Edit for comment. Steve there are some great boards such as the novel writing thread , and Uncle Jim is an outstanding teacher, to include others.

I know your work is decent, you will do well and move ahead with study here, I have.

Best friend.

[Jean Marie]

Hi Steve and welcomehttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif I'll echo Ken.

I remember you well from the PA boards too. There's lots to learn here aside from the never ending thread.

I'm very sensitive about PA authors, past and present being made fun of. Have to say it really is at a minimum and if it becomes personal, speak up-I have. Don't know if you're aware, but, PA cancelled my contract in July due to lack of sales. Yeah, yeah, it's on the shelf at Borders and yes, PA is still selling it even though I've got the rights.

You're a smart man, Steve, you do know the scorehttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Ken Schneider]

Don't know if you're aware, but, PA cancelled my contract in July due to lack of sales. Yeah, yeah, it's on the shelf at Borders and yes, PA is still selling it even though I've got the rights.


Jeez, how many times do we have to hear that?http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[rekirts]

Yet, there are numerous commercial advertisements ranging from instructional courses, software and publishing/printing services. I'm sure Jenna has vetted these to make sure they're legit, and I don't believe this forum is merely a vehicle to facilitate commerce, but: having experienced authors giving advice and guidance to people who are seeking information, while also providing links to publishing-oriented commercial sites, may appear (to some) as a tacit recommendation for these services, which are not free. May not be a big deal to some, but it bothers me.

The advertisements were explained in an earlier post which I can't find. I don't know if it was here or in the NEPAT thread. Maybe someone else can point you to it. Basically Google supplies the ads based on the content of the website. There are costs associated with having a website which would (I assume) be prohibitive without the ads. I have a personal gmail account, and ads show up on the side of my screen related to the topics of the emails I send and receive. I don't notice or pay attention to them. Nor do I notice or pay attention to the ones on this website. But I guess that's just me.

[Jean Marie]

Jeez, how many times do we have to hear that?http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif


http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteROFL.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteKiss.gif

[Jean Marie]

Hey Jim, I clicked on as many as I could-hope it ends that saga

[Richard]

An addition to that one - individual ads can be (and are) zapped after they show up, but it's a reactive process - the ones you see are based on the content of the page, and what Google has in its collection that best matches it, not Jenna picking and choosing adverts herself.

[Dawno]

Also, if you click them, you don't have to buy them but it still helps defray costs. This board has nearly 5000 members. Of them there are probably a good number who would buy some of the advertised 'wares.' I hope that they would go to the main website, AbsoluteWrite.com and check there before buying anything that just pops up in a Google Ad. I would also venture to guess that the advice on this board is as valuable and useful as most of the stuff advertised. That's definitely my biased, unproven opinion but I'm stickin' to it. :)

[book_maven]

Jim, all you need to do is ask. It is done.

[Dawno]

I shudder to think what my recommendations page is gonna look like when I finish Jim's exercise...but it's a small price to pay. :)

Edit: well that didn't take long - only two reviews were still up by the time I got there! Good job AWers!!

:Clap:

[Old Hack]

Done, as asked. Now my recommendations page shows "Raising Meat Goats for Profit". It wasn't there before but I can't for the life of me think of any books I looked at which would make Mr Amazon think I'd be interested in meat goats (for profit or otherwise).

[Dawno]

Aside from now having ALL of H.B. you know who's books showing up now, I have an interesting new assortment of poetry books on my page. I don't read much poetry anymore having been a lit major in college and really getting my fill then. I'm gonna have to go click through on a bunch of Science Fiction, mystery, thrillers and such to get 'the page you made' back on track.

[rekirts]

This is a response to a post on the NEPAT thread. A lot of people mention how thrilled friends and family are when someone has a book printed by PA or another vanity press. They say it's so exciting for the author just to hold that book in their hands.

My friends and family read a lot, and some of them are published (not printed) writers. If I had a book printed up without proper editing--a book that needed more work--they wouldn't be thrilled. They'd be embarrassed for me.

[Rose colored glasses]

Regarding the regular NEPAT thread, sheesh, is this National Troll Month? Did I miss that announcement?

[SC Harrison]

Hey Jean Marie, Ken, et al. I know some of these ads are Google-related. They're plastered all over my site, as well www.freewebs.com/scharrison/ (http://www.freewebs.com/scharrison/) . Hows that for shameless promotion?

Anyway, let me put on my Boy Scout uniform for a sec. There we go. My concern is not about how people who already understand the nature of website ads perceive them, it's about the less savvy. These people see connections where none exist. What some see as a no-brainer, others need more clarification. This is one reason why disclaimers are often necessary, ensuring that all but the severely reasoning-limited are well-informed.

Do I over-analyze things? Now THAT is a no-brainer.

Steve

[Dawno]

Hey Jean Marie, Ken, et al. I know some of these ads are Google-related. They're plastered all over my site, as well www.freewebs.com/scharrison/ (http://www.freewebs.com/scharrison/) . Hows that for shameless promotion?

Anyway, let me put on my Boy Scout uniform for a sec. There we go. My concern is not about how people who already understand the nature of website ads perceive them, it's about the less savvy. These people see connections where none exist. What some see as a no-brainer, others need more clarification. This is one reason why disclaimers are often necessary, ensuring that all but the severely reasoning-limited are well-informed.

Do I over-analyze things? Now THAT is a no-brainer.

Steve

The less savvy also tend to ignore disclaimers, neon colored warning stickers, bright blinking lights and other things...

OK, I'm being a bit pessimistic about the human race, it's one of those days.

Welcome to AW, Steve. Don't forget to wander around some of the other threads where people are helping writers become better writers!