NEPAT Overflow

[spike]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19650

Ok, spam isn't funny. I hate spam. But I do sense a karma-esque humor in the reviews on PA's site being hit with spam.

Funnily enough I wasn't actually as crossed as I ought to have been when I found people advertising motor homes in Texas on the review page of my second book http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopreviewlist.asp?id=15022 (http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopreviewlist.asp?id=15022)

Please PA Infocenter, could you delete the two latest "reviews" on that page. Thx very much for your support.

(I think reviews to this site could do with being moderated, to prevent this kind of abuse in future http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif )

[AnneMarble]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19650

Ok, spam isn't funny. I hate spam. But I do sense a karma-esque humor in the reviews on PA's site being hit with spam.
And the spam is there. What a shock. :rolleyes:

How typical of PA. If someone mentioned AW in a post, the post would be deleted. But if someone spams their reviews page, they don't care. And never mind that they could have easily protected that board against spam by taking precautions. That would mean they had to care about their writers.

It's ironic that some PA authors get upset at AW and think we hate PA authors and conspiring against them. Yet PA is the one that is letting spammers use their own reviews page to spam everything from pills to Hawaiian shirts. Oh, and bubble mailers, how could I forget bubble mailers? How professional does that look? :rolleyes: If I were a potential bookbuyer, and I found that a publisher's reviews pages were filled with bubble wrap spam, I'd shop elsewhere. Because clearly this is a publisher that does not care about its product.

I wonder how InfoMonster will phrase their reply, if they even notice the posts?

[stormie]

It's ironic that some PA authors get upset at AW and think we hate PA authors and conspiring against them.
Yep, even when it's a PA author who sets up his own website and writer's forum, inviting everyone to join, then when someone mentions AW as a great resource for writers, comments from PA authors are made that AW is so, so negative about PA. Then when one person asked questions about PA's contract, etc, honest, factual answers were given by some AWers. The board monitor got up in arms. Said we were confusing the poor thing.

[CatSlave]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19650

Ok, spam isn't funny. I hate spam. But I do sense a karma-esque humor in the reviews on PA's site being hit with spam.

Alas, I checked the "Buy Drugs" link but could not find any PHENTERMINE :cry:

[stormie]

Okay, the person a few of us here at AW tried to help decide whether to go with PA or not, decided to sign with PA. Oh well.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Okay, the person a few of us here at AW tried to help decide whether to go with PA or not, decided to sign with PA. Oh well.



I'm sorry that happened, Stormie. I know it's not easy to have to deal with it, but think of all the people you and others here have helped to either stay away from PA, or to realize after the fact the kind of bad stuff PA does to writers and their books. Just remember you did your best, and that the ultimate decision to go with PA was the individual's, not yours. I hope you will not feel responsible for her mistake.

We all know you and the others did the best you could to steer a prospective author in the right direction. Don't feel bad about it.

:)

[stormie]

Thanks, Sean. I think the deciding factor for her was that on that particular forum (kind of a spin-off of PAMB), the moderator jumped on us when we just stated facts. Period. No bashing PA, because that gets nowhere, and ultimately could turn a person off from listening to reason. He kept saying we were confusing her, which we weren't. How confusing is: Publish America doesn't get you into bookstores. PA holds you to a seven-year contract. PA would like you to buy 50+ of your own books to sell. Their editing is not good. The price of the books are high. Etc.

Yes, we tried. And none of us should ever give up trying. Again, thanks, Sean, and maybe one lurker on that forum will think twice. That's my hope.

[James D. Macdonald]

Faustus: I think hell's a fable.
Mephistophilis: Aye, think so still, 'til experience change thy mind.

[Christine N.]

That's ok, I just had someone send me a message on MySpace, after I crowed a bit about a second publisher requesting pages of a book. This person recommended I try... wait for it... Authorhouse.

No really. They said they were great and 'low costing'.

I tried, really tried hard, to explain things to him without trying to sound like an elitist snob. I mean, I just really didn't KNOW if this person was a)either totally ignorant about the business, or b) one of those multi-rejection tales that decided paying was better than learning to write. It's hard sometimes, to tell the truth, and often painful, and most of the time people won't thank you for it.

Sigh. Just another day on the chain gang...

[Tina]

I'm sorry that happened, Stormie. I know it's not easy to have to deal with it, but think of all the people you and others here have helped to either stay away from PA, or to realize after the fact the kind of bad stuff PA does to writers and their books. Just remember you did your best, and that the ultimate decision to go with PA was the individual's, not yours. I hope you will not feel responsible for her mistake.

We all know you and the others did the best you could to steer a prospective author in the right direction. Don't feel bad about it.

:)

How many really talented, promising writers does everyone think would choose PA today? (I mean with all the information available in 2007 as opposed to a few years ago.)

With all the info on the web, is it not possible that by now those who choose PA do so because they know their current book isn't good enough for commercial publication? I'm finding it increasingly hard to make sense of this company's ongoing success otherwise, and after a mere year of posting and lurking, wondering if it just might be a lost cause. (Yes, this is your cue to chime in and say otherwise - I'm frustrated today).

Reading the PAMB seems to indicate PA is catering to a certain kind of wanna-be, one that may be willfully ignorant or wanting a short-cut to "authorhood" via their own wallet.

The more I recall BS Stevens' comments and her belief that her work was publishing-ready as was, the more I am beginning to think PA is simply cashing in on the deliberate ignorance or perhaps even laziness of their "customers."

Today on a local news show they featured a young writer whose first books was commercially published when he was just 17. Initially lit agents and publishers were concerned he was too young, but he was talented and educated enough to convince them otherwise. It CAN be done, and this is a case where age doesn't necessarily dictate wisdom. A 17-year old who learned about the legit publishing world versus 50+ PA writer that doesn't want to. What can we do about the latter?

Also, the more PA slowly (and albeit not very clearly) begins to admit to their real business practices (ie, lower acceptance barrier, whatever the hell that means) the more I wonder just what we can do to save some of their writers from themselves.

HOW can we help them?

[Alan Yee]

Here's a question for all of you to consider:

http://www.copyright.gov/

Now that the registration fee is $45 instead $30, do you think this will have any effect on whether more writers sign up with PA?

Of course, this is generally a non-issue, because a real publisher will register the copyright for you. But if someone really wants to see their book "in print" with PA, they might just pay whatever it takes for it to happen.

[triceretops]

I think the real danger in PA comes from their own authors and their referrals to the company. Twenty thousand writers suggesting that PA is legitimate, and why not try them out? Even having a bound book to show all of their friends, neighbors and struggling peer writer friends is enough to start a huge snowballing campaign. Even if there is only 10,000 happy PA authors--that's still a huge pro-media campaign for the company. And in turn, those people refer even more. It's a huge mobius loop.

As for the other writers who keep flockling to this ruse company, I have NO idea how they willingly sign these contracts, with all of the negative publicity going on. I'm dead certain that most of them know of the dangers, toils, and snares, yet sign anyway. Years ago we did not have such obvious warnings--today it's undeniable. A good chunk of these writers have probably been on the query-go-round, or had anything from 6--60 rejections, and realize that PA is a last ditch effort for printing/publication.

I can only say this, with due respect for all writers, that those who pursue PA with absolute knowledge that it is as bad as it has been stated, then maybe I should feel relief knowing that they are out of my slush piles. Though I would rather they see the light and compete against me in legitimate venues of publication, if they continue to toute PA and insist that the company is blameless, then I have no alternative left but to leave them behind in their own dumping ground.

I think Jim said it best: It's not the authors who have signed contracts and currently lay on the honeymoon bed that we should be concerned with (the ones who don't have questions). It's the writers who are just stepping up to knock on PA's front door that we have to grab by the collar.

There's one big exception and caveat to this, too. AW is fortunate to have many, many past PA authors who've obtained releases, so there are some who have made it out alive and continue bravely onward. But those authors saw the red flags and chose not to continue their relationship.

It's a delicate balancing act--we have to wait for the opportunity to help. And it is our duty to catch a writer who is free-falling without without the silk, before they hit the ground.

Tri

[Saundra Julian]

Well, said, Chris!

[ResearchGuy]

. . . a real publisher will register the copyright for you. . . .
FWIW, a couple of days ago a successful fiction author (romances, and now romance-suspense) spoke to a local writers group of which I am a member. Along the way, she mentioned that one of the big publishers (absolutely, 100% legitimate and extremely well established) had not been registering copyrights until called on the matter. That company publishes a LOT of books, most with very short shelf lives, so it is understandable that the company might have wanted to dodge that expense. Nonetheless, the company was nailed for the omission. That was surprising. It does not justify PA's practices, but might suggest that authors should make sure that even real publishers are following through on copyright registration.

This page (http://www.likesbooks.com/copyright.html) has a lot of related commentary (mentioning the publisher's name I omitted above), and is juicy reading.

--Ken

[Alan Yee]

I do my part in the AW chatroom. Thankfully, if I'm exceedingly overwhelmed with someone's cluelessness, all the other regulars know what to do.

When I'm in there, if I smell even a little bit of cluelessness, a huge bell goes off in my head and I frantically try to give the ol' routine.

[Alan Yee]

FWIW, a couple of days ago a successful fiction author (romances, and now romance-suspense) spoke to a local writers group of which I am a member. Along the way, she mentioned that one of the big publishers (absolutely, 100% legitimate and extremely well established) had not been registering copyrights until called on the matter. That company publishes a LOT of books, most with very short shelf lives, so it is understandable that the company might have wanted to dodge that expense. Nonetheless, the company was nailed for the omission. That was surprising. It does not justify PA's practices, but might suggest that authors should make sure that even real publishers are following through on copyright registration.

This page (http://www.likesbooks.com/copyright.html) has a lot of related commentary (mentioning the publisher's name I omitted above), and is juicy reading.

--Ken

Eh. I don't write romance. I'm a fantasy/horror guy, so most of what I know comes from UJ, Ann and Vic, TNH, and SFWA.

But it's an important point, nonetheless.

[stormie]

I think Jim said it best: It's not the authors who have signed contracts and currently lay on the honeymoon bed that we should be concerned with (the ones who don't have questions). It's the writers who are just stepping up to knock on PA's front door that we have to grab by the collar. That's what some of us are trying to do, esp. on that new PA's writer's board (http://authorsroundtable.wetpaint.com/page/Home/thread/464121/New+Here). We're just stating facts. But they don't want to listen. It's almost like Publish America has this hold over them; this brain-washing technique. How, I don't know.

There's one big exception and caveat to this, too. AW is fortunate to have many, many past PA authors who've obtained releases, so there are some who have made it out alive and continue bravely onward. But those authors saw the red flags and chose not to continue their relationship.
They're the ones who did not go quietly into that good night. :)

[spike]

I believe that there are several reasons why someone would go with PA even though there is enough warning on the web.

The 20,000 or 10,000 or even 100 happy authors can be a great influence. Those of us, me included, who are fighting our way through the slush piles are looking for any advantage. Any break. A group of authors saying, "Hey, come over here! We're published! You can be published too! Don't listen to those other people, they don't know. We are the new thing in publishing! We fight the conspiracy! Join us and be published!" That's why I believe if we at AW are truly dedicated to stop PA, we need to address the half truths, misconception and outright lies that are plastered on the PAMB.

But also, and I've mentioned this before, there are a lot of people who believe that their book is different. They know that PA doesn't promote. That PA doesn't have a bookstore-friendly return policies and pricing. They know everything bad about PA, but they believe if they only had their book published, they could sell it.

And there are the truly naive. People who just don't know how publishing works. If you think that bookstores operate like other retail establishments, if you don't understand the return policies of publishers, you might think that you can promote your book from the trunk of your car, that bookstores will stock it. It does work with other merchandise and retailers, but not with books and bookstores, because of the return policy.

[spike]

That's what some of us are trying to do, esp. on that new PA's writer's board (http://authorsroundtable.wetpaint.com/page/Home/thread/464121/New+Here). We're just stating facts. But they don't want to listen. It's almost like Publish America has this hold over them; this brain-washing technique. How, I don't know.


:)

Many people feel that PA is like a cult. Maybe it's true.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's true, not just of PublishAnything but of other scam publishers and scam agents too: You can carefully explain it all to a hopeful newbie, and that newbie will say, "Yes, but my book is different."

Meanwhile, PublishAmerica is advertising for a cover artist! From today's Frederick News-Post:

Publishing – Bookcover Design Traditional book publisher offers FT position w/benefits designing bookcovers. Photoshop skills required. Downtown Frederick location. No phone calls or walk-ins please. EMail resume to applicants72529@yahoo.com

What kind of publisher uses a throwaway yahoo.com address for job openings?

Okay, guys, let's get some applicants in there. Just don't mention that you're an AW regular, even if they ask.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . Okay, guys, let's get some applicants in there. Just don't mention that you're an AW regular, even if they ask.
Can I work from home? I have Photoshop and tens of thousands of pieces of clip art . . . sounds like a deal. (But my standard rate is $75/hr.) <snerk> And if they ask, I'd be pleased to tell them I love A&W. Best root beer on Earth. <doublesnerk>

--Ken

[Tina]

A fast-food analogy is coming to mind today. PA is perhaps like the quick and easy burger and shake that fill you up quickly but provide no real nutrition - and can lead to long term health problems.

Apologies if I'm not the first person to post this analogy.

[xhouseboy]

That's what some of us are trying to do, esp. on that new PA's writer's board (http://authorsroundtable.wetpaint.com/page/Home/thread/464121/New+Here). We're just stating facts. But they don't want to listen. It's almost like Publish America has this hold over them; this brain-washing technique. How, I don't know.


They're the ones who did not go quietly into that good night. :)

The standard of the work must be pretty high; every author gets five stars.

But I suppose that's not entirely unheard of. When my son was three, everyone in his pre-school class also used to get the equivalent of five stars for their efforts, no exceptions.

Of course, as he got older he soon learned that this wasn't the way the world worked.

[CatSlave]

Many people feel that PA is like a cult. Maybe it's true.
You think so?

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cultinfo.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cultinfo.html)

Information control in cults can involve six key elements:
Deception
Outside Information Forbidden
Levels of Information
Spying and Survelliance
Group Propaganda
Unconfidential Confessions

Deception
Cult members will often:

Deliberately withhold information from recruits
Distort information to make it appear acceptable
Lie to obtain their goal

Outside Information Forbidden
Access to information outside of that of the group is minimized or discouraged. These restrictions are set on:
Certain books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV and radio shows that expose the group
Critical information pertaining to the internal problems within the group
Written critiques, letters, editorials, or history of involvements of former members of the group

Levels of Information
Often, and necessarily so within cults, information is compartmentalized. That is, only certain top-notch members are privy to exactly what is happening in the leadership and with the group as a whole. Information pertaining to the group doctrine is fed in small, digestable spoonfuls to new recruits for a reason -- so that they remain ignorant for the time being of the workings of the system. Leaders are seen as possessing what Lifton called "sacred science," or having the ability to decipher and interpret doctrines, philosophies, etc, in a way that no one else has ever done or could ever do.

Information is not freely accessible
Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
Leadership decides who "needs to know" what

Spying and Survelliance
Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control
Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership

Group Propaganda
Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources

Unconfidential Confession
Information about "sins" is used to abolish identity boundaries.

[Maddog]

Wow...:Jaw:

[brianm]

It will prove interesting to see how the members on PAMB respond to this recent posting. This is a response to someone asking which "editing" option to choose.

My minimal exposure and experience has shown me that it really doesn't matter which option you select. I chose the slowest, supposedly most complete, and there was virtually no editing whatsoever.

I'm not slamming PA mind you - thanks to them we are all in print in the first place. But I was sincere about editing. i would rather have paid for a professional edit than to have to wait that extra time and still get no edit.

I wrote one technical book for the American Society of Quality Control back in 1993. When it came to editing they sent me their edited copy for my review and approval and I felt like I had just had a religious experience. There was more red ink on the pages than black. But, that's what an edit is for isn't it? If I did it wrong tell me.

PA has made a believer out of me and they have gained a life long follower but there are still areas they could improve as well.

Choose the fast one and get your book rolling.

Although he didn't say it, I am sure his PA "edited' book was chock full of errors. His and the ones PA added to it when they "edited" the ms. Yet, he claims he will be a life long follower.

Honeymooner, will you still be a life long follower when they discard you faster than a soiled diaper when you don't purchase enough copies of your book?

[brianm]

I know you all know who wrote this piece of drivel. The OP was complaining because they were not getting any reviews of their book.

Abby most authors reading your post know what you are going through...But reviews do not make a book...you do!...Many first time authors also get their families to write a review on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Even big time authors do that...It isn't because they cheat. It is because it's called "promotion"...

Reviews from legitimate sources will definitely affect the success of a book. Poorly written, obviously friends and family reviews will also affect a book. But, not in a good way. Big time authors are too busy writing their next best seller to worry about calling mom to write a review of their current best seller.

Legitimate sources will not review a PA book.

Why? Because PA has a track record for producing poor quality books through their author mill scam.

[Mel]

Mr. Grammar Guru over there is, well, I'm not sure what to say.

over look instead of overlook? Twice?

What? I can't use Who are you talking to? Not saying the other isn't correct, but it depends on what you are writing. Think I might have to file that line away and use it on purpose.

I know my grammar sucks, but...

Please correct me, or smack me upside the head, if I'm wrong here.

[Atomic Bear]

It's true, not just of PublishAnything but of other scam publishers and scam agents too: You can carefully explain it all to a hopeful newbie, and that newbie will say, "Yes, but my book is different."

Meanwhile, PublishAmerica is advertising for a cover artist! From today's Frederick News-Post:



What kind of publisher uses a throwaway yahoo.com address for job openings?

Okay, guys, let's get some applicants in there. Just don't mention that you're an AW regular, even if they ask.

Never. Ever.

I am sure they do not pay what I am worth and the commute from California won't be covered in my salary. Plus I don't like to work for employers that seem to lack any ethics or morals.

[spike]

Okay, guys, let's get some applicants in there. Just don't mention that you're an AW regular, even if they ask.

Are you looking for a mole?

[spike]

The great PA library marketing plan scam (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19437&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) seems to have hit a snag.

The idea was for everyone to go to their local library and request everyone else's books, then the libraries would order them.

Bad news from my library. They told me that they only order books that are in other libraries. Of everyone who responded to me, Trash Talk is the only one in another library. (You are actually in 43 libraries worldwide!) Trash talk is not in any libraries in the state of Maryland. I had the librarian get it sent in from another state. After I return it, I will have a friend do the same thing. He said that if a few people were to request it, they would probably get a copy.
Also, he told me that they do not order books that have been on the market for more than one and a half years.
If you can get your book in another library, let me know and I will request it again.

[Sparhawk]

The great PA library marketing plan scam (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19437&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) seems to have hit a snag.

The idea was for everyone to go to their local library and request everyone else's books, then the libraries would order them.

That's just so sad on so many levels.

[Tina]

That's what some of us are trying to do, esp. on that new PA's writer's board (http://authorsroundtable.wetpaint.com/page/Home/thread/464121/New+Here). We're just stating facts. But they don't want to listen. It's almost like Publish America has this hold over them; this brain-washing technique. How, I don't know.


They're the ones who did not go quietly into that good night. :)

Was this board originally established just for PA authors? Some of the postings seem surprisingly enlightened, and I even saw a link for P&E...or will that not last?

[stormie]

Was this board originally established just for PA authors? Some of the postings seem surprisingly enlightened, and I even saw a link for P&E...or will that not last?
What happened was, a few of us saw his posting on the PAMB (PA message boards) about his new writer's board he set up. A few of us AWers signed up. We stated facts--facts only--about PA's practices, and tried to answer one of the poster's questions, directing them here for more answers. Joe B., the moderator, then changed it to a PA Author's board or whatever. And banned us. We protested, saying how all we did was state facts. He reinstated us. We now try to enlighten the people over there by posting links to here, P&E, etc. No PA bashing, just the facts.

Our user names over there are different from here.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

What happened was, a few of us saw his posting on the PAMB (PA message boards) about his new writer's board he set up. A few of us AWers signed up. We stated facts--facts only--about PA's practices, and tried to answer one of the poster's questions, directing them here for more answers. Joe B., the moderator, then changed it to a PA Author's board or whatever. And banned us. We protested, saying how all we did was state facts. He reinstated us. We now try to enlighten the people over there by posting links to here, P&E, etc. No PA bashing, just the facts.

Our user names over there are different from here.



He reinstated you? That's pretty darned nice of him. At first I worried he might have gone the way of the PA InfoCenter, but at least he's giving you all some breathing room through which you can speak the facts.

In the end, I don't know the moderator, but facts have a tendency these days of holding a higher respect among all people than does anything else. I'm glad to see the moderator over there do what he can to accomodate those facts. I think it shows some promise for the PA authors over there, that enlightenment will eventually be received and celebrated.

All-in-all, I'm glad he reinstated you and your fellow AW'ers. It will give his board, I think, the balance that many people, from what I can tell, truly appreciate online.

:)

[TwentyFour]

I'm there as Miss Kitty and have posted several dozen things. I was banned and then he told us all that it was not exactly he who banned us, it was a former banned member here. I won't mention names but she did write a book about two children and a "Planemaker". She had banned us apparently.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I'm there as Miss Kitty and have posted several dozen things. I was banned and then he told us all that it was not exactly he who banned us, it was a former banned member here. I won't mention names but she did write a book about two children and a "Planemaker". She had banned us apparently.


Now who could that be?

:rolleyes:

[stormie]

He reinstated you? That's pretty darned nice of him. At first I worried he might have gone the way of the PA InfoCenter, but at least he's giving you all some breathing room through which you can speak the facts.
We protested--nicely, of course--about being banned and asked why. SouthernWriter explained it here above how this bannishment came about.
I did thank him for reconsidering. I stayed calm. We all did.

[brianm]

Obviously, the honeymoon is coming to an end for this member.

A University Proffessor i know once said "the definition of insanity is when a person does the exact same activity over and over and over again, and expects a different result every time. Well Folks, you are going to like me even less after this post, but you know what I really do not care.

When I suggested back on September 5th 2006, on Mr. Drosenbergs now legendary marketing ploys thread that P.A open a Marketing Section, I expected that if we all put our minds together we might actually come up with something.

But all I see are the same tired ideas, I'm not making fun of them, but from all my years in business this is how they sound to normal people

1) Do a web page
The problem here, and remember I am one of you all know. We are a bunch of nobodies linking up with another bunch of nobodies, so all we are doing is linking with each other and spinning our collective wheels so to speak, besides have any of you visited some of those sites with over a hundred web address linked to them. Most of them, well that's the only thing they have going for them. Of course this one also covers those of you who think starting your own book club is the answer, Well welcome to the club where everyone is a club of one. Enough said.

2) Bookmarks
99% Wind up in the trash, same as most business cards that people hand out so freely. If they were truly interested in what you have written about after talking with them they would have written it down themselves. You're just throwing good money here after bad. Nationally, 1-2% of the people you talk to will do business with them after handing them a business card. I do not know how much a box of 500 cards id in your neck of the woods but up here in Edmonton they are around the $50-$75 depending on quality, etc So anyways 1-2% is now equal to 5-10 persons10persons buy your book, you have now made back under $10.00 on royalties plus, time, effort gas, well I'll let you figure it out based on what ever you think your time is worth.

3) Maybe I can get one of the nobodies to review me, seeing as how I'm a nobody too, and then in turn I'll review their book and their book and their book. Well you guys get the picture.


The old ways or thoughts just are not working today, if they ever worked at all. Now you would think that with 20,000 of us out there, some one would have a decent idea that would start another decent idea and so on, till we are a cohesive unit and a force to be reckoned with. Our numbers are large but our sales are still relatively small.

Maybe now, just maybe there is no real secret to it out there, Maybe, just maybe, we should start writing books that people in droves actually want to read.

Just a thought

[Queen of Swords]

I found this post (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19727) a little... odd. I had to read it twice to be sure of what the author thought would happen.

I will be giving away a copy of my book to the poorest author in the club... This is a small gift, but the reader will find out that the wisdom and knowledge embedded in the books are unique and it did not take PA much time to realize that as the work was accepted so fast.

After finishing this I realized that it is a good idea for all authors to do the same but not in the same fashion and same conditions. It can be a round robin process and each can send a book to a different person. So you can reacieve one and give one. In the pool You can specify what you offer and what you like to recieve. so the drawing can be made. This will help to sell over 10000 books and will make PA financially stronger to be in better position to advertise all of its books.

So... each author buys their own books and trades them to other authors for their books. This does indeed sell books (not sure about the >10000 figure) but what it does for the authors is unclear. Still, at least PA will be benefited in the end. <sigh>

[zizban]

That is deeply disturbing.

[James D. Macdonald]

If 10,000 authors (out of PA's 20,000 very, very ecstatically happy overjoyed authors) buy one copy each of their books and send them to another PA author, wow! PA's sold another 10,000 overpriced, poorly produced books!

PA will be so happy to have those 10,000 sales that they'll start advertising their authors' books.

Authors buying their own books is the vanity press model.

PA isn't about to start advertising anything.

All this proves is that authors in general will do anything to get someone to read their books.

[CatSlave]

Obviously, the honeymoon is coming to an end for this member.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19740&sid=74d1ca6f2ae79ef40559ca3d89058057

I am bookmarking these posts (before they get deleted) to have a written record of what WAS - then WASN'T on the PA board. Maybe the documentation will be helpful to people like Christine who have been threatened by PA with a lawsuit for telling *lies* and slandering them. When it ends up in court, if it comes to that.

[CatSlave]

Obviously, the honeymoon is coming to an end for this member.

Here's a comment to that post taken from a lengthy reply from a venerable PA member:

There also are some pretty good writers here, a few who may go on to find success in the mainstream. Others just enjoy having something published. A few misguided people expect more than they should and almost all of them lack the talent to find success elsewhere.

[brianm]

Another PA member's answer to my earlier post. I wonder how long PA will allow this thread to stay up, because both members are saying that PA only prints members' books for members and their familes to buy.

I'm a publish America realist. I realize that most Publish America books are not going to become blockbusters. PA is more of a "I wrote a book and my family and friends will buy it" publisher. Now, I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing or that PA books are poor pieces of literature, I'm just saying that's the reality of it all.

DING! DING! DING! Pa makes its money by selling books to it's authors, and their families and friends.

The publishing industry is elitist, cuthroat, and PA is the counter to that. And for PA, I'm very thankful.

No, PA is a counter to nothing. PA is a scam who pretends to be offering writers a legitimate entry into the world of published authors.

I just expect PA to publish my book, put it on Amazon, send me my two free copies, and my friends and family (and maybe some people who read newpaper reviews) to buy it. That's all.

And that is all you will get. That is exactly what PA is counting on, that you and your family will buy your overpriced, unedited, and poorly packaged book.

Perhaps the best way for us to sell books outside of friends and family is to write "underground" bestsellers, books that are so unique and compelling that they spread by word of mouth. So perhaps writing a great book is the best marketing tool.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Write a wonderful book, and then query that book to legitimate agents. The agent will then shop that book to legitimate publishers, who will then publish and market your wonderful book while you are writing your next wonderful book.

You can’t do this with PA, because all of your time is taken up with printing and buying throw away bookmarks, setting up a website that only other PA authors see, posting reviews on other PA member websites that only other PA members will see, spending your hard earned money, and your family and friends hard earned money, to buy your book and banging your head against a wall because you realize selling 100 copies of your book has accomplished nothing more than fill PA's coffers.

The only thing traditional about PA is that they are a traditional scammer.

[brianm]

Another response to the above thread.

Sometimes being realistic is hard to do when you feel passionate about something but it is great when wake-up calls come. I am a new author. Sometime after I submitted my signed contract, I stumbled across some of those websites bashing PA. I must admit that for a very short time I was disillusioned and asked myself: "What have I done?" Then I remembered what I did when I pushed the SEND buttom to email my final manuscript: I prayed. I put my book in the Lord's hands and acknowledged that His will is greater than my own. I am trusting that He will put my book in the right hands. I told myself that if only one person is blessed by my book, then so be it. Of course, my human nature would love it if a thousand plus people were blessed by my book! Still, it is really HIS book. He gave me the gift of writing and I am to do it to His glory and not my own.

PA preys on their members' egos and belief in themselves. Her response is what PA is counting and praying/preying on. PA also prays everyday that each author buys 100 copies of their own book. If they don't, they ignore them and move on to the next member's wallet.

[brianm]

Yet, more proof of PA’s failure to properly edit member’s books. Note the spelling of grammar.

Original Poster:

Good day! I just chose the editing option 3 where PA edits for you. They indicated it could take 6-10 months for their edit process. I was just wondering if anyone had any personal experience with the length of time they experienced using option 3??

Answer from another PA member:

I choose option 3 too. It took roughly a month to get the page proofs sent to me for my approval. I think I must have done a fair job of pre-proofing before I sent the ms to them because the editor did not indicate any mistakes (grammer, etc.) but I ended up finding a bunch of mistakes other than grammer and spelling. I'm discovering that it's normal to have them.

Here’s a thread to an inside look at PA’s real editing process. I know it's been posted before, but it is worth posting again. After reading #65, skip down to posting #81.


http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008505.html#164708

For anyone questioning why I'm seemingly on a mission against PA today, and posting so many threads, here's the answer.

When PA attacked our Christine, I promised I would spend 12 hours of my writing week exposing this scamming monster. I'm keeping that promise.

[CatSlave]

Another response to the above thread.



PA preys on their members' egos and belief in themselves. Her response is what PA is counting and praying/preying on. PA also prays everyday that each author buys 100 copies of their own book. If they don't, they ignore them and move on to the next member's wallet.

I am deeply disturbed by the posts that praise the Almighty for bringing them to PA, and depend on Him to carry them through. IMO they are in for even a harder fall, a double whammy so to speak. Very sad.

[stormie]

"My book means a lot to me and feel blessed that they've accepted it for publication. "
Why is God brought into so many of their conversations about their books? I mean, I have a religion, I pray, I even post on the prayer board here, but I don't ever feel "blessed" that I got an agent. Or that my articles get accepted and I'm paid. Why the constant mention of leaving it in God's hands and that PA came along and what a wonderful sign? If ever there seemed to be a cult with blind followers....

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I am deeply disturbed by the posts that praise the Almighty for bringing them to PA, and depend on Him to carry them through. IMO they are in for even a harder fall, a double whammy so to speak. Very sad.


That was part of my problem with PA as well. I thought that because G-d allowed me to submit to PublishAmerica, it must have been the right publisher.

It really is very sad that writers are willing to say G-d led them to a scam. This is especially so, when we consider what all we know about PA and its business practices.

[CatSlave]

"My book means a lot to me and feel blessed that they've accepted it for publication. "
Why is God brought into so many of their conversations about their books? I mean, I have a religion, I pray, I even post on the prayer board here, but I don't ever feel "blessed" that I got an agent. Or that my articles get accepted and I'm paid. Why the constant mention of leaving it in God's hands and that PA came along and what a wonderful sign? If ever there seemed to be a cult with blind followers....
There seem to be many fervent believers at PA's spiritual message board and a proliferation of religious-themed books. I don't find it surprising, but I feel bad for the writer whose faith is tangled up with the PA scam. I hope that faith will be enough to see the writer through any future disappointment. Since this is a sensitive subject I'm reluctant to get into it any further for fear of inadvertently offending anyone.

[Old Hack]

I am lucky enough to be able to count among my friends a certain wonderful woman who once sent me the following advice.

To put her words in context: I'd been talking to an evangelical Christian acquaintance about how a friend of hers in New Zealand had been involved in abusing children. She said that the church community had done all it could to help the abuser but he remained tempted, and abusing. I asked, incredulously, why she hadn't notified the police and she had answered, "But Jane--we were praying for him!" and smiled me a beautific smile.

After this I was fuming. I emailed my dear friend, who happened to be, at that time, very involved in the Quaker church (and also one of the most intelligent, articulate people I've ever known). And she replied with this:

"There's a very old joke that goes the rounds of the religiously inclined, a bit too long to repeat here in full but it involves a flood and a man on the roof of his house who refuses all offers of help, saying God would save him. He drowns, goes to heaven, and accuses God of letting him down despite his faith, to which God replies, "How did I let you down? I sent a boat, I sent the fire brigade, I sent a helicopter..." ie as with the New Zealand case, the first thing to do is work within the everyday parameters of the world which, if you're that way inclined, you believe God created."

She's a very wise woman.

[CatSlave]

I am lucky enough to be able to count among my friends a certain wonderful woman who once sent me the following advice.

To put her words in context: I'd been talking to an evangelical Christian acquaintance about how a friend of hers in New Zealand had been involved in abusing children. She said that the church community had done all it could to help the abuser but he remained tempted, and abusing. I asked, incredulously, why she hadn't notified the police and she had answered, "But Jane--we were praying for him!" and smiled me a beautific smile.

After this I was fuming. I emailed my dear friend, who happened to be, at that time, very involved in the Quaker church (and also one of the most intelligent, articulate people I've ever known). And she replied with this:

"There's a very old joke that goes the rounds of the religiously inclined, a bit too long to repeat here in full but it involves a flood and a man on the roof of his house who refuses all offers of help, saying God would save him. He drowns, goes to heaven, and accuses God of letting him down despite his faith, to which God replies, "How did I let you down? I sent a boat, I sent the fire brigade, I sent a helicopter..." ie as with the New Zealand case, the first thing to do is work within the everyday parameters of the world which, if you're that way inclined, you believe God created."

She's a very wise woman.
Amen! :)

[Christine N.]

I just want to take a moment to say that having a book printed by PA doesn't make you any less of a 'real' writer (Sean's sig line caught my eye)

Does it make you a professional writer? No, since the book doesn't count as a publication credit in the industry.

But you're still a real writer. I've published lots of things - shorts, flash fiction, essays, books. I didn't consider myself a 'professional' in this industry until after I got my first 1099 form. That told me I made enough money from writing (or writing related industry) to make the government care if I paid taxes on it.

That was the moment I no longer was a hobbyist, in my mind. But I was a writer long before that.

Just wanted to make that clear. You really wrote a book.

[Atomic Bear]

That was part of my problem with PA as well. I thought that because G-d allowed me to submit to PublishAmerica, it must have been the right publisher.

It really is very sad that writers are willing to say G-d led them to a scam. This is especially so, when we consider what all we know about PA and its business practices.

I wonder if the folks who feel blessed that G-d has lead them to PA then get mad at G-d when the the experience is less then holy?

[J.S Greer]

Kudos to Brianm and catslave for the mission that they are on. Kudos indeed.

"There's a very old joke that goes the rounds of the religiously inclined, a bit too long to repeat here in full but it involves a flood and a man on the roof of his house who refuses all offers of help, saying God would save him. He drowns, goes to heaven, and accuses God of letting him down despite his faith, to which God replies, "How did I let you down? I sent a boat, I sent the fire brigade, I sent a helicopter..." ie as with the New Zealand case, the first thing to do is work within the everyday parameters of the world which, if you're that way inclined, you believe God created."

I remember that "joke" being a very poignant moment on thewest Wing. It applies well in many arenas of life. Nice job.

It amazes me to a certain point that despite the proof to the contrary, PA authors seem to have blind allegiance. It truly is almost cult like.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I wonder if the folks who feel blessed that G-d has lead them to PA then get mad at G-d when the the experience is less then holy?


That's always a real possibility. Because some people believe everything happens because G-d ordained it, they might think they're being put through some sort of punishment without knowing what they did. That has the potential to lead to some very bitter people.

[CatSlave]

Quote:
Originally Posted by clock_work9 http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1147501#post1147501)
Meanwhile, in the same office--

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h134/clockwork9/madness.jpg

Inside PublishAmerica: The Rest of the Story
The Acquisitions Editor tallies up his daily quota of accepted submissions.

Just wanted to share my submission to the AW Office Party: AW Caption Contest thread.

[CatSlave]

Quote:
Originally Posted by clock_work9 http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1091766#post1091766)
Next up--

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h134/clockwork9/office2.jpg

Inside PublishAmerica: The Rest of the Story
Miranda, Larry and Willem resonating with one another during their mutual mas.. uh, admiration meeting.

ok, ok, this is the last one

[brianm]

This poor dear spent her afternoon at work looking up sites to promote her husband's book of poetry. I guess she's acting as his "agent". Then she started a thread posting links to the sites. Many of those sites exposed PA for the scammers they are. I'm surprised it stayed on the board for as long as it did.

Yesterday I posted a topic filled with links that I compiled at work of websites that can help promote your book. Was it inappropriate, because it is no longer here?! Sorry if I did something wrong, I was just trying to help others with what I found.

What amazes me, is that she did not expend the same amount of energy researching publishers before placing her husband's book of poetry into PA's dirty paws.

[James D. Macdonald]

The lady should put the list of links on her webpage, then link to her webpage.

Seriously, though, InfoDump will delete links to other writing-oriented websites because they want to keep PA authors on the reservation, where Buy Your Own Books is the order of the day.

[brianm]

Walmart and a few other stores sell some cool stuff to help promote our books. In the crafts department there are many things to choose from to make things. Bags are a great gift for people to use for just about anything, why not add your cover of the book? Aprons too. They even sell magnet sheets and sticker sheets that you can feed out of your printer so you can make professional looking items straight from your computer. The cover of your book would be great for these items. Not to mention transfer paper to make your own tshirts and to use on the bag and apron, or whatever you choose to make. Give the items away or sell them. You can also make enough for book signings. There are so many things we can do to promote our books and we can do it all ourselves, probably saving money in the long run.

PA members who follow this kind of advice are out the money to buy all of these things to make into things to promote their books. Better to open a business making these things for other PA members who think this is a good idea. Then they’d make some money. Just not off sales of their book.

Borders books has many books on the subject of promoting books we write too. I've been told they are worth the money we spend on them and the sales people can help us find the book we're looking for. I'm going to look into it so I could find more great ideas.

Okay, now you go to a bookstore (Ding! Ding! Ding! Where your book would be if it were with a commercial publisher instead of scummy, scammy PA) and buy a book (the author of that book thanks you and will pocket royalties that are properly accounted for and actually paid to that author by the legit commercial publisher) to learn how to sell your book.

Your job as a writer is to WRITE BOOKS. It is the publisher’s job to SELL BOOKS.

Add the cost of the “How To” book to the cost of the above “marketing items” to what it cost to buy your supply of books from PA and you are beginning to invest a lot of money into a book that “didn’t cost you anything to print.” You are throwing good money after bad and the only one profiting from this is PA.

But, that’s not the worse part. You’re stuck in a 7 year contract with a company who schleps out unedited, inferior quality products that are over priced and can’t be purchased except by searching online for the book’s specific title.

Unless, of course, someone sees your apron with your book title stuck on the front of it.

[JulieB]

I've made bookmarks (with the blessing of an editor at a large house) to put out on literature tables at conventions. But they don't have nearly the impact of even a quarter-page ad in the program book. The ad is taken out by the publisher. That's right, folks. The convention organizers approach publishers and mention which of their authors are guests at the event, include a rate card, and the publishers almost always buy space in the program book. I've seen full page ads for midlist authors. Sometimes the publisher sends along extra promotional materials.

With the exception of that NYT campaign I've never seen PA take out ads for books in trade publications or in support of their authors at events such as conventions. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. (I know you will! ::grin::)

What does YOUR publisher do?

[JimmyD1318]

Walmart and a few other stores sell some cool stuff to help promote our books. In the crafts department there are many things to choose from to make things. Bags are a great gift for people to use for just about anything, why not add your cover of the book? Aprons too. They even sell magnet sheets and sticker sheets that you can feed out of your printer so you can make professional looking items straight from your computer. The cover of your book would be great for these items. Not to mention transfer paper to make your own tshirts and to use on the bag and apron, or whatever you choose to make. Give the items away or sell them. You can also make enough for book signings. There are so many things we can do to promote our books and we can do it all ourselves, probably saving money in the long run.

All of these things have been tried before and done before! It always ends the same way every time, little to no books sold and the writer out of more money! Oh, well......:Shrug:

[Christine N.]

Heck, if you get yourself a Cafepress site, you can sell stuff with your cover on it for free. A small cafepress shop costs nothing.

You just have to convince people to order... But in the long run it would probably work out better.

[DaveKuzminski]

Except for one thing. PA probably purchased the right to use the clip art used to make those covers. Without its permission, those writers could end up paying a big penalty to PA. Unless the author owns the copyright to the artwork to be featured, it's not a wise idea to set up a Cafepress site. Free in this case could be very costly.

[Christine N.]

Oh, that's true. Forgot about that...

[JulieB]

Right. My editor told me it was fine to make bookmarks and flyers for promotional purposes and put the cover on my site, but I was not allowed to re-sell the cover art in any form because I didn't own the rights.

Generally speaking, it doesn't hurt to ask in writing how you're allowed to use the cover art for your personal promotional use.

[James D. Macdonald]

Generally the artist owns the rights to the artwork, and has licensed the artwork to the publisher for use on a book jacket. Generally, the rights the publisher has licensed include use of the cover art for promotional purposes for the book itself. That is, they can use the entire cover -- with the title and so on -- but not the art without those words on 'em.

All depends on what rights the publisher bought.

Always check with your publisher to see what use you can make of the artwork.

[PeeDee]

Otherwise, we just would have talked about PHENTERMINE instead.

[James D. Macdonald]

Could someone please explain this PHENTERMINE joke to me?

[PeeDee]

Could someone please explain this PHENTERMINE joke to me?

A little while ago, a spammer appeared and posted a lengthy post about some drug called "Phentermine."

It would have been deleted, but Carrie and I treatedit like a real thread, and then degraded it into a joke. then other people joined in. We all expounded the virtues of Phentermine, none of which were actually related to the drug.

Thanks to what we laughingly call our "humor," Jenna deleted the spam content of the first post, but let the thread live.

It started in the Roundtable, it's probably somewhere in Office Party now.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52836

There it is, if you're so inclined. Bits of it are funny.

[James D. Macdonald]

Joining rather late, but enthusiatically:

"My hair is sleek!"
Says Martin Sheen.
"I owe my looks
To Phentermine."

"Philosophy
Is mighty keen,"
Says Nietzsche, who
Takes Phentermine.

If you've been paddled
By the dean,
To ease the pain
Use Phentermine.

------------

If we do 90 pages of these, do you think PA would publish it?

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Reminds me of the old Burma Shave signs. :)

[CatSlave]

Joining rather late, but enthusiatically:

"My hair is sleek!"
Says Martin Sheen.
"I owe my looks
To Phentermine."

"Philosophy
Is mighty keen,"
Says Nietzsche, who
Takes Phentermine.

If you've been paddled
By the dean,
To ease the pain
Use Phentermine.

------------

If we do 90 pages of these, do you think PA would publish it?
BRILLIANT!! :D

[PeeDee]

It was good. :) And now we'll have to do Pete & Carrie Variety Hour (with special guest, Uncle Jim!) and no one will be able to forget the clown costume.

[CatSlave]

It was good. :) And now we'll have to do Pete & Carrie Variety Hour (with special guest, Uncle Jim!) and no one will be able to forget the clown costume.
Don't forget the rubber glove.

[PeeDee]

One forgets the rubber glove at one's own risk.

[CatSlave]

One forgets the rubber glove at one's own risk.
Yeah, then you have to take it orally.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Phentermine: “It cleared up that nasty rash I got and grew half my teeth back before I started to lose my hair. I decreased the dosage, my hair grew back, the second set of teeth fell out, and I grew a third leg - ¼ the size of my normal anatomy.” Great Stuff! - Three Leg Harry Pots -(Actual- Uncompensated User)

News Week - Reports that Phentermine used in small doses in a blind (really blind - who turned out the lights? Tests) showed it permanently cured ED. However, the use of caffeine in a normal sixteen ounce cup of coffee, with non-dairy creamer, a little sugar (½ teaspoon) caused a short term stiffening ----- of the upper lip.

(Where was I when this joke had its hay-day?)

Argile Stox

[PeeDee]

If people paid more attention to me, they'd know about these jokes when they happen. ;)

(if jokes like this didn't happen, people would pay more attention to me.)

PHENTERMINE! It's the choice of a new generation!

PHENTERMINE! It's better than dental surgery!

[James D. Macdonald]

Vic threatened our lass
Miss Christine.
He must be taking
Phentermine.

Brits say in whispers
That the queen
Is pining for her
Phentermine.

Forget disease:
There's no vaccine
That's half so good
As Phentermine.

Starbuck's is closing!
For caffeine
Cannot compete with
Phentermine.

[Pagey's_Girl]

...Ask your doctor if a little PHENTERMINE! is right for you

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

And with it comes this SPECIAL OFFER! (I know you're surprised.)

Dear author,
As you know, February is a number crunch month at PublishAmerica. We are preparing roughly twenty thousand royalty statements and checks, to be mailed by Wednesday night. That's what happens when you are home to an incredibly fast growing army of authors. Only two years ago PublishAmerica proudly announced that our ranks had reached the milestone of ten thousand authors. It took us five years to get there. The next ten thousand authors followed within less than two years. And today we are approaching the magic number of 25,000 authors.

Last month alone, an average 145 new authors contacted us every day, hoping to join your ranks as a traditionally published author. That's more than three thousand aspiring writers in one month. They applaud that PublishAmerica's acceptance barriers are considerably more author-friendly than what has historically been the norm in the traditional publishing world. They also cheer the key fact that PublishAmerica never charges any of its authors a single penny in return for publishing their work. As you know, PublishAmerica foots the entire bill of publishing a book: to date we have invested more than fifteen million dollars in book production alone.

More numbers: in the past twelve months, our public relations department has sent out more than twenty thousand individual news releases to domestic media from coast to coast, and to places as far away as Britain, Finland, South Korea, and Pakistan. The names and book titles of PublishAmerica authors have appeared in thousands of newspapers all across the nation. Links to many of those articles can be found here: http://www.publishamerica.com/Press (http://www.publishamerica.com/Press), and as a courtesy to you we are in the process of scanning hundreds of printed author interviews that will soon be made available for your education and entertainment.

The result of all of the above is that PublishAmerica continues to release more new books than any other traditional publisher, typically more than a hundred new titles each week, or five thousand in a year.

So here's for the happy campers among you who love to make numbers work in their favor. For those of you who choose to keep copies of their own book on hand, this is your week. As always, never buy copies of your own book if you don't need any, but if you do: those who purchase 40 or more copies will receive 40 percent discount. Those who order 65 or more copies will receive 50 percent discount. Phone orders only: please call us at XXX XXX XXXX. Offer expires this Friday, March 2; sorry, full-color books and hardcovers excluded.

Thank you!

PublishAmerica Auhor Support (sic)

[veinglory]

...and if the thread
is growing mean
you can just mention
PHENTERMINE

[PeeDee]

Super wonder pill-a-day,
Phentermine, Phentermine
Buzzes all your cares away,
Phentermine, Phentermine

Guess who's taking all the pills?
Phentermine, Phentermine,
The strung out guy with the chills,
Phenterme, Phenteryou

Sigmund Freud said to Alex,
Phentermade, Phentermaude
"It makes you dream about sex,"
Phentermoo, Phenterdoo

Phentermine!

(like anyone on these forums is going to know what cartoon theme song I just parodied.)

[Soccer Mom]

Oh my sweet heavens. PHENTERMINE is now officially in every forum on AW.

You've infected Uncle Jim!

[LloydBrown]

the magic number of 25,000 authors....to date we have invested more than fifteen million dollars in book production alone.

That's an average of $600 per author (or $750 using the 20k figure), which is right about the cost for printing fewer than 100 copies of each author's book and pro-rating out the monthly clip-art library fees for the cover art.

I feel so left out. My publisher only spent about $120,000 on book production for my first book (plus only about another $5,000 to $10,000 in marketing & promotion). Yep, first book. No agent. Not even the best contract in the world. Just another one of thousands of deals made every year by those "dinosaur" publishers that still want to sell books to readers.

They think I'm jealous why, exactly?

[James D. Macdonald]

That's $600 per author. It's considerably less per book. Always assuming they're telling something in spitting distance of the truth.

[pink lily]

I did it too, thanks to PA,
And one PHENTERMINE, two times a day.

[LloydBrown]

That's $600 per author. It's considerably less per book.

That's true. On the other hand, they spent virtually nothing on the 1,100 titles which sold a grand total of zero copies each. That should help even the scales.

[Ken Schneider]

Kevin PHENTERMINE
married Brittney Jean.
They mixed their chemicals
one cold dark night,
and what came out just
wasn't right.
They struggled with the perfect name
and decided on Metha PHENTERMINE.

[Ken Schneider]

Here's hoping no PA author needs any books.

[James D. Macdonald]

On the other hand, they spent virtually nothing on the 1,100 titles which sold a grand total of zero copies each.

No, they still paid the salaries of the "editors" who acquired the books, the "artists" who did the covers, and the setup fees for Lighting Source. Those are the production costs. Printing is entirely paid for by the customer (usually the author), not by PA, so shouldn't be listed as part of their production costs.

Y'know, if PA actually sues anyone, one of the things they're going to be asked is to prove the factual accuracy of every word that they've put in these hard-sell advertising letters they send to their authors. Another reason why PA isn't about to go to court....

[ResearchGuy]

. . . a traditionally published author. . . .
Oh, giant typo for "vanity-published author."

--Ken

[LloydBrown]

No, they still paid the salaries of the "editors" who acquired the books, etc.

You've done the math before. What percentage of their average cost per title is the actual book printing?

[James D. Macdonald]

Depends on what you mean by that.

Average book, call it 200 pages, call the cover price $19.95. Sold wholesale at 40% discount (paid in advance, non-returnable, direct from PA), income to PA for that book is $11.97. Printing for that book costs $3.70. That's around 30% of the income on that book.

I could mess around with the numbers a bit more.

PA then has $8.27 to play with. $0.96 goes to the author as royalty (assuming they're accounting honestly). So $7.31 to play with.

Assuming that PA has $600 in production costs per title, they break even after they've sold 82 copies.

But I've calculated elsewhere that their actual production costs are on the order of $300/title. So their break-even point is 41 copies. Given that everything else PA says works out to 75 copies/title ... well, let's go with the lower number. They pay off the dead horse on those 41 copies, giving them 34 average copies of pure profit ... $248.54 per book.

At 5,000 books per year (and face it -- none of their books are selling much if anything after the first year), that's $1,242,700 in gross profit out of which they pay rent on the townhouse, taxes, and Willie's and Larry's salaries, plus whatever else they need to pay to stay in business.

[swvaughn]

Super wonder pill-a-day,
Phentermine, Phentermine
Buzzes all your cares away,
Phentermine, Phentermine

Guess who's taking all the pills?
Phentermine, Phentermine,
The strung out guy with the chills,
Phenterme, Phenteryou

Sigmund Freud said to Alex,
Phentermade, Phentermaude
"It makes you dream about sex,"
Phentermoo, Phenterdoo

Phentermine!

(like anyone on these forums is going to know what cartoon theme song I just parodied.)

Freakazoid? :D

[LloydBrown]

Assuming the 75-per figure is correct, the average cost of printing alone is $277.50. I wonder what they're including under the "production cost" umbrella.

Take out $277.50 for printing (assumptions: an average book cost of $3.70 with 75 copies sold and no overprinting because of POD).
$22.50 per title for the ISBN (is that current?)
an average of $10/title for editing (assumption: about 90% of their authors choose the "no editing" option, and the remaining 10% need two days of spell-check from a near-minimum wage flunkie).
$25 for the clip-art cover proration and the labor to make it (give them a generous two hours per cover and a prestigious $10/hour rate for their "graphic designers")
a maximum of $20 in wages for their typesetting, which consists of dropping the text into a template, and is probably done by their spellcheckers-cum-editors.I get about $335. My higher estimate is probably because of generous allowances on the time spent. On the other hand, the editing could be as much as $50 or even arguably $100 per title if my percentage estimate is wrong.

[PeeDee]

Yay, you got Freakazoid! Yaaay!

[CatSlave]

That's $600 per author. It's considerably less per book. Always assuming they're telling something in spitting distance of the truth.
Do you suppose they've included the cost of their new printer in that figure ($15 million)?

[swvaughn]

Yay, you got Freakazoid! Yaaay!

I loved Freakazoid!! :D I love all sorts of weird, obscure cartoons - American and Japanese, come one, come all. If it's wacky, I'll watch it.

Freakazoid! Chimpanzee!

Wheeee... earworm!

[Christine N.]

I miss that cartoon. Haven't seen it in years.

[zizban]

Maybe. How much does one of them cost?

[James D. Macdonald]

If they buy ISBNs in blocks of 1,000, they cost $1.25 each. If they buy 'em in blocks of 10,000, they cost $0.30 each.

[CaoPaux]

Maybe. How much does one of them cost?Per this post (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=919006&postcount=4837), PA’s machine(s) is/are from Océ North America. (Lightning Source uses the Océ VarioStream® 9210, among others.) All the dealers I find are "call for quote", but I'll wager they're at least $50K apiece (based on similar systems from Xerox and the like). Assuming they're buying new, not used....

[Ken Schneider]

The last figure I heard for total books sold was , "Coming up on a million."
That was last year.

If they average 7.31 to play with/ net profit, that's only 7.3 mil. over seven years.

Having their own printing press allows them to print cheaper, or why would they buy one. They wouldn't do anything that didn't benefit them.

Increasing book prices and decreasing overhead ups the profit.

Someone wants a new helicopter
A new Jag.
Two tickets to the Kentucky derby—dark sunglass, and a wig.

[Tina]

And with it comes this SPECIAL OFFER! (I know you're surprised.)

Dear author,
As you know, February is a number crunch month at PublishAmerica. We are preparing roughly twenty thousand royalty statements and checks, to be mailed by Wednesday night. That's what happens when you are home to an incredibly fast growing army of authors. Only two years ago PublishAmerica proudly announced that our ranks had reached the milestone of ten thousand authors. It took us five years to get there. The next ten thousand authors followed within less than two years. And today we are approaching the magic number of 25,000 authors.


Can anyone imagine Simon & Shuster, Random House or Time Warner describing their own authors as an ARMY?

Oh my goodness, tell me they really didn't write that!?

Hey PA - YOUR MOTHER WEARS ARMY BOOTS! HAHAHHAHHA. Ah PA, you walked right into that one!!!!

[James D. Macdonald]

Twenty thousand royalty checks, of which 19,000 will be for $0.00 ....

[Scribhneoir]

Having their own printing press allows them to print cheaper, or why would they buy one.

Anyone wanna bet that PA went on terminal credit hold with Lightning Source? They might have had to buy their own printing equipment, just to continue the illusion that they're a publisher. Besides, now they can completely hide the number of books printed from the authors.

[spike]

Anyone wanna bet that PA went on terminal credit hold with Lightning Source? They might have had to buy their own printing equipment, just to continue the illusion that they're a publisher. Besides, now they can completely hide the number of books printed from the authors.

I think it is to hide their shoddy bookkeeping.

[CatSlave]

I think it is to hide their shoddy bookkeeping.
Shoddy = criminal ??
I hope the IRS is lurking on this forum. :D

[spike]

Attention PA lurkers! Even PA told us this...

You don't need an agent.

Remember that anyone can tell you that they can produce numbers for both sales and revenue, but have they and for whom? Anyone can make you feel like you are a best seller, but are you? Anyone can say they are the best, but are they?

The best person to represent you is you. Only you truly know you and your work, and what you want to accomplish.

You get what you pay for, and you reap what you sow.



If you check out www.agentquery.com (http://www.agentquery.com) , you'll see that many agents list their latest deals.

Legit agents will tell you who their clients are and what sales they made. BTW, the only reason PA says you don't need an agent is that if you have a legit agent, you won't end up at PA. You don't need one, because if you had one, PA wouldn't make any money from you.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

an average of $10/title for editing (assumption: about 90% of their authors choose the "no editing" option, and the remaining 10% need two days of spell-check from a near-minimum wage flunkie).

TWO DAYS? You submit a MSWord file, they load it and click the button. I spell-checked Crack of Death in under an hour. Apply a new style sheet to get the book format and save it in the PDF-making directory - five minutes.

[LloydBrown]

TWO DAYS? You submit a MSWord file, they load it and click the button.
Ever waited in line a McDonalds? It's not the 30 seconds it takes to prepare your food that you wait for. It's the orders ahead of you.

[Alan Yee]

Legit agents will tell you who their clients are and what sales they made. BTW, the only reason PA says you don't need an agent is that if you have a legit agent, you won't end up at PA. You don't need one, because if you had one, PA wouldn't make any money from you.

In general. The one mind-boggling exception I've learned about was Jane Yolen's agent. Jane herself said in a Making Light thread that her agent kept his/her clients and sales list private.

Don't ask me how I remember that. I just have to look up who her agent is.

[James D. Macdonald]

If memory serves, Jane's agent is Elizabeth Harding at Curtis Brown.

If she's the agent for you, you know her. If you don't know her, she probably isn't going to be the agent for you. We're in the world of By Invitation Only there.

And surely Curtis Brown needs no introduction.

[CatSlave]

I'm a snob, too. I don't think younger people can write a decent novel. You
have to have been around the block a few times to understand life, which
is what we write about. So all you "babies" can jump on me now.
I tend to agree with you. I don't think a formal education is a requirement to write well.
Being addicted to reading helps. :)
But when I see, for example, a poetry collection by a teenager who claims to have stunning insights into the mysteries of life and personal relationships, I look for the nearest trash can.

[zizban]

I tend to agree with you. I don't think a formal education is a requirement to write well.
Being addicted to reading helps. :)
But when I see, for example, a poetry collection by a teenager who claims to have stunning insights into the mysteries of life and personal relationships, I look for the nearest trash can.

And there are many teenage poets who think just that. See me again when you are 30.

[SC Harrison]

But when I see, for example, a poetry collection by a teenager who claims to have stunning insights into the mysteries of life and personal relationships, I look for the nearest trash can.

I don't care how old the writer is, when I see that type of claim I want to gag.

p.s. I'm an ex-PA author, so I've seen many cases of outlandish self-promotion. ;)

[Tina]

And there are many teenage poets who think just that. See me again when you are 30.

While generally life experience is needed to gain insight, there are some who have a gift from a pretty early age. I'm thinking of the writer of Everything is Illuminated (Jonathan something, someone please fill me in) Gordon Korman who was publishing YA from the time he was a YA (This Can't be Happening at McDonald Hall and scores of others - I think he's about 43 now) and our own poster Alan Yee, who just may be one of the most intelligent insightful teens I've ever had the privilege of reading.

Alan, post some more. We miss ya.

[e.dashwood]

"The Diary of Anne Frank," need I say more for juvenalia masterworks? None other than Philip Roth said that one of the many tragedies of the death of Anne Frank was the world's loss of a great writer at just the beginning of her career.

[smsarber]

Ok, I am back! I changed my e-mail address and had to wait to post until it was verified.
e.dashwood has not responded to a message I sent him, but I will get to the meat now, in public view. I am not a college grad, I am not even a high school grad. Maybe that is the norm for PA authors. But I am not uneducated, as I said in my message to him, I have had my I.Q. tested at over 130 numerous times (and not just those internet tests). I even scored a 108 when I was intoxicated. Now that I am sober I like to think maybe I have picked up a couple points.
Anyway, I have momentarily lost my point; I believe if you catagorize a group of people, without researching and knowing the members themselves, that would make you a bigot. PA is like a black hole, sucking hopefuls in. But I woul certainly rather be naive and sucked in than a bigot. e.dashwood, you said you would like to take it outside; you have an open invitation any time you come to Imperial, Missouri.
CatSlave, it's all good. One off the point thing: the writer of those ever popular "Eragon" books is a teenager.
This Is Not The Place For Hatred (not aimed at PA), find another site if you are so full of anger and spite that you can't talk without slamming other authors; nameless or otherwise.

[DaveKuzminski]

Take it outside is a special topic for discussions that might become heated. That's what was meant.

[Alan Yee]

and our own poster Alan Yee, who just may be one of the most intelligent insightful teens I've ever had the privilege of reading.

Alan, post some more. We miss ya.

Yeah, I know. Sometimes I just find myself saying the same old things about PA. They still lie, they still deceive with half-truths and rely on the clueless and naive to help spread their misinformation about the publishing industry and people who warn others about them. They still are PublishAnything, PunishAmerica, PunishAuthors, etc. But really, this thread was how I came to be here, so I'll always be hovering around this area of the forums.

Has royalty time come around yet? If so, we may need to do a nice review.

[smsarber]

Take it outside is a special topic for discussions that might become heated. That's what was meant.
Yes, I Know what was meant, I also know he tries to pick on nameless people, but when one sends him a private message to clear the air he isn't even brave enough to respond.

[Patricia]

Yes, you are a snob. FYI -- 3 of PA's longest and loudest cheerleaders are college educated. Their writing was so stilted and boring I couldn’t finish the books. On the other hand, I read a couple of books written by those with HS or less, who, with a good editing and agent, would have had a heck of a book to offer the reading community. You know not what you speak of, concerning education and writing.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

You can write a short Tome or a nail-biting novel. It really does not matter what educational level you have attained. Some of our greatest authors never graduated from elementary school. The job of the Editor (if you are lucky to be accepted by one of the "big houses") is the person who takes the trash and transforms it into something that resembles a readable story.

Me? I am a H.S. graduate, Computer Vocational School graduate, and an Automobile Sales School graduate. With all that, I am still a HACK. I write non-fiction. I live it & write about it. All the tools that are at my disposal in my computers, such as spell check - grammar check - sentence structure check are all used before I post, write a column or re-write my memoir. There are times that these tools screw up and I have to go back and edit. Thank goodness AW has no time limit on editing. Some forums - the clock starts ticking and you have 1/2 hour to edit. After that, you must contact the administrator of the forum to remove a mis-spelled word or rewrite a screwy sentence. On the PAMB, you get one shot (the last time I checked).

Well, that is my $1.50.

Gary Rogers

[smsarber]

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
- This quote has been attributed to Mark Twain, but until the attribution can be verified, the quote should not be regarded as authentic.

If I signed my PA contract after I was in jail, is it still valid?

I may be able to get out of this yet!

Jim, the info you gave me on N.H. is great. I had shelved "The Silvertone", but I am starting the rewrite now, and it seems more alive with a more "real" town basis. And the war memorial statue is an excellent touch.

[Christine N.]

The job of the Editor (if you are lucky to be accepted by one of the "big houses") is the person who takes the trash and transforms it into something that resembles a readable story.


You're kidding, right? This is not the editor's job. Sometimes they do guide an author to a better story. However there was already a great story there to begin with, or it wouldn't have been accepted. They also make sure all the ducks are in a row - chronologically, characteristically, continuity. They, by no means, turn trash into treasure. But they do take gems and cut and polish them. I love editors, I have nothing but respect for them.

Sure, lots of writers don't have degrees, or some have degrees in stuff not related to writing. But this statement you made is just false. It is not the editor's job to turn you into a writer. You have to have talent, and you have to have worked on your craft, neither of which have to come with a lambskin.

The caveat to this is that a great story trumps everything, even less than stellar writing.

[e.dashwood]

There have been editors who have contributed greatly to the work of a writer. Maxwell Perkins cut 100 pages out of Wolfe's Look Homeward, Angel, and cut several volumes out of Of Time and the River, while toning down its experimental nature. Wolfe was annoyed enough by this to switch from Scribners to Harper and Row.

Even more hands-on was Gordon Lish's editing of Raymond Carver. In fact, there are allegations that Lish not only heavily edited Carver but actually rewrote some of his submissions.

The days of Maxwell Perkins types may be gone and the stuff of legends for today's overworked bean-counting editors.

From my own experience, my editor says that some of her authors--given a year to write a nonfiction book--say, "I'll get back to you in a year when I'm done." In my case, as a first-time, unbpublished author, the editing will be a bit more hands-on. In other words, she'll always be available for consultation, but the message to me is still, "Rewrite the first three chapters, and get back to me when it's done." In other words, no shaping, no rewriting, not even editing while it's still a wip. I still have to do all the work.

As far as a great story trumping everything, it will get a deal only if the writing is indeed stellar. However, in such cases the stellar writing can be done by a ghostwriter.

Fantasia, the American Idol winner, is self-admittedly illiterate, but she had a story to tell, and got a deal along a ghostwriter to write it all down.

[Christine N.]

Sorry, The DaVinci Code tells me that a great story with built-in controversy will get a book published even if the writing sucks.

Yes, editors do their job. Some to an outstanding job. But the statment made it seem like any old Joe could slap a book together and get it published, and the editor would fix it all. Which is so not true.

Don't try to make the exceptions fit the norm. Normally, a book is already really good before an editor gets it, or it wouldnt have been offered a contract. The editor just makes is shine - uncovers the little facets that pull the book together. Editors do not work with trash, but jewels they believe will sell many, many copies.

The slush pile - most of that is trash.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Listen, Christine N.,

Please get off your high-horse - Please! Ever hear of the dreaded "Blue -Pencil?" Sure, there are some editors that suggest re-writes of certain areas of the manuscript, and there are authors who give full control to the editor to give them guidelines to enhance character and scene development. Then, the author attempts to satisfy the demands of the editor. Sometimes, an author must fire an editor due to personality clashes.

I don't usually lose my temper on this forum - My words are well researched and can be verified. So, before you start labeling my posts as falsehoods, think again!

Gary Rogers

[smsarber]

Listen, Christine N.,

Please get off your high-horse - Please! Ever hear of the dreaded "Blue -Pencil?" Sure, there are some editors that suggest re-writes of certain areas of the manuscript, and there are authors who give full control to the editor to give them guidelines to enhance character and scene development. Then, the author attempts to satisfy the demands of the editor. Sometimes, an author must fire an editor due to personality clashes.

I don't usually lose my temper on this forum - My words are well researched and can be verified. So, before you start labeling my posts as falsehoods, think again!

Gary Rogers

WHERE'S THE LINK TO PA??

[smsarber]

Christine N. said,

Yes, editors do their job. Some to an outstanding job. But the statment made it seem like any old Joe could slap a book together and get it published, and the editor would fix it all. Which is so not true.



I found value in what you said, and agree. The book I sent to PA was a book of poetry, and the only damn thing they edited was the one word I wanted left alone. And it's my own fault for missing it. My Mom had handled the business end of everything, printing stuff out, sending it to me in prison, then I'd look at it and send it back.
I wish I had waited, But I was operating under the delusion that I had found the right road on which to travel. Trash publishers like PA prey on the hopes and dreams of people who desperately need to find something good in life. But it proves that nothing good is ever free, and nothing worthwhile doing is worth doing half-way.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Listen, Christine N.,

Please get off your high-horse - Please! Ever hear of the dreaded "Blue -Pencil?" Sure, there are some editors that suggest re-writes of certain areas of the manuscript, and there are authors who give full control to the editor to give them guidelines to enhance character and scene development. Then, the author attempts to satisfy the demands of the editor. Sometimes, an author must fire an editor due to personality clashes.

I don't usually lose my temper on this forum - My words are well researched and can be verified. So, before you start labeling my posts as falsehoods, think again!

Gary Rogers


Gary,

I know this post wasn't directed at me, but I do believe Christine IS an editor. I'm certain she knows what she's talking about.

Please, calm down. Losing your temper like this cannot possibly be good for your heart, especially considering you're responding to a mere forum post. I don't want to see you getting another heart attack over another person's opinion.

[Christine N.]

I'm not on a high-horse, Gary,I'm tired of your 'sunshine and roses' attitude about this BUSINESS.

I know what editors do. Yes, I sure as heck do. But to suggest there wasn't a readable story in a book that a publisher has picked up before an editor got a hold of it IS a falsehood.

I've read slush. Yes, I really have. It's goddess-awful. Really. 99.5% of it is garbage. The ones that are good, you pull out and are relieved you haven't lost your faith in the human race to put a story on paper. It may need a little work, a tweak compared to the other stuff in the pile, but it's sure as hell not crap. It was good to start. They by no means turn a non-readable story into a readable one, and I'm sure the other authors who have dealt with editors on this board will back me up. Matter of fact, I know I've seen this exact sentiment on this very board before.

Actually, recently I had this experience myself. The publisher rejected the manuscript, and suggested a list of revisions, which, if I did, she would look again. She loved the story, loved the characters, loved the writing, but it needed more work - mostly cutting - before she could offer it a contract. So I spent three or four days editing myself and resubmitted. If what you say is true, they would have contracted the book off the bat and then given me the revisions, right? Uh-uh. If they do offer it a contract now, I'm sure there'll be more edits.

Editors edit, they don't rewrite the book. Sometimes that edit does include storyline cuts, and character combinations, etc. Too many writers, I've seen, think it's the editors job to make them a writer, and that's just not true.

Don't misunderstand me -there is a universe of difference between what real editors do and what PA calls editing. A universe. I'm not saying real editors don't work. I think I already said that, actually. They do work, and usually with the author to make what's good better. What I'm saying is that you saying a book isn't readable before an edit is, in fact, false. Even if it needs rearranging, etc... doesn't mean it was crap before. Or , again, it wouldn't have been contracted.

When you've picked up a pile of submitted slush, you can come talk to me again about your 'well-verified' words. Sometimes I don't think you have a clue, and I'm not saying that to be mean. Not many people who haven't been on the other side of the fence, so to speak, do. They really don't understand what slush looks like. And I'm not even with a big house - I'm sure the slush at the big houses is much worse. Well, the ones that take unagented subs anyway. Most big houses nowadays use an agent as their gatekeeper, so their slush is minimized. Agents, in my experience, are even tougher than publishers.

Actually we have editors on this board. Birol, I think? Or is it CaoPaux? One of them is a big house editor. I'd love to get their take on this. Uncle Jim, do you think your editor takes your crap and makes it readable? Someone go find TNH and see what she thinks, I'm sure Tor doesn't contract crap they want to pay an advance on, then pay the editor to rewrite it. Lynn Price or Nomad? What say you?

Sometimes, an author must fire an editor due to personality clashes.


What? Since when? If you're talking about a paid edit, yes, I can see that. Editing with a house? I don't know about that. You're assigned an editor. I guess if it's really bad you could request a new one. Don't know how often that happens though, because then the publisher knows you're a 'problem' author. You don't fire an editor who doesn't work for you.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Christine N. -

I am not going to have a merry-go-round on this editor subject, my blood pressure is too high as it stands today - and I am not going to start popping nitro's over this subject matter. ("'sunshine and roses' attitude" - my B...)

Sean D. Schaffer - Thank you for the advice; I really appreciate it!

Gary Rogers

[James D. Macdonald]

Calmly, everyone. When we bicker, Miranda laughs.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

James D. Macdonald -

10-4 / Roger-Dee! Gary Rogers, signing off of this topic. 73's & 8's (where they apply) to everyone on this topic.... Bye!

[CaoPaux]

I'm not an editor, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Gary, I suggest reading through the many acquisitions editors' and agents' blogs now available. They are very open about the level of writing they expect and need to accept a project on the spot versus asking for revisions before reconsidering versus straight rejection. And, of course, they discuss the editing process itself; from copyediting upward.

[Christine N.]

And I don't mean to take you to task, Gary... If someone with far more experience than I (say, UJ or Lynn or someone) comes in here and says I'm wrong, then that's okay with me. I'm often wront.

I just see you posting quite a few things that you believe are true about publishing, which just...aren't. Maybe you mean them tongue-in-cheek. But it's the kind of misinformation that abounds on the PAMB, and it drives me insane, especially when someone,(not necessarily me) tries to set them straight and they blow them off.

I learn new things every day, just like everyone else, and I try to pass along the things I've learned.
We're all friends, and we all bring something different to the table. I just happen to have rubbed elbows with people who know this business inside and out, so I pay attention.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Christine N -

Maybe there was some heterodyne in my last post. This is Gary Rogers (Bagel Mobile, Bagel Base) signing off on this topic (Changes channel on the CB Radio).

Gary Rogers

[Sheryl Nantus]

I'm not an editor, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Gary, I suggest reading through the many acquisitions editors' and agents' blogs now available. They are very open about the level of writing they expect and need to accept a project on the spot versus asking for revisions before reconsidering versus straight rejection. And, of course, they discuss the editing process itself; from copyediting upward.

I would think that simple logic would trump rumor - no editor is going to take on the project of having to do a *major* rewrite of something from the slush pile if the author doesn't have some talent to start with. The work is just too much and the outcome too risky.

When I worked at Penguin Books Canada I went through the slush pile and I can truthfully say that while I found plenty of interesting ideas, no editor ever asked me to pull something "with possibility" and then took it on as a project. They were too busy working with authors who *could* convey their idea and needed editorial help, not that of a ghost writer to try and redo the entire project.

and I *NEVER* heard of an author firing an editor. Ever.

just my experiences, of course.

[Queen of Swords]

I'm often wront.

You did that deliberately, right? ;)

[Old Hack]

Some years ago, I worked as a commissioning editor for a packaging company. I sold books to HarperCollins and others of similar stature. And I think that Christine has it pretty much right when she describes how a commissioning editor works. We would never take on a book which didn't have something glittering about it. We'd help the writer polish the text, sure, but we would never rewrite it: if a text needed that much work it would not be signed up. Simple.

And no writer that I know of ever fired their editor. Not the editor at their publisher. Editors are the ones who take submissions and sell them to the rest of the publishing house. They're the people who fight the writers' corners. If a writer wants to change editor then they also change publishing house. Again, simple.

Gary, I'm sorry to trample over so many of your assertions like this. It's not a personal thing, but I can see how you might take it as such. My concern here is to try to prevent any more misinformation taking root. There's all ready far too much of it spread around at PA: we don't want it flourishing over here too.

[smsarber]

James D. Macdonald -

10-4 / Roger-Dee! Gary Rogers, signing off of this topic. 73's & 8's (where they apply) to everyone on this topic.... Bye!

Are we supposed to care? No offense to the friends of G.R. and T.S., but they bring meyham with them wherever they go. Lighten up. Pop all the nitro you need to ... schietz!

More on the PAMB: The old timers like to say (and alot of the new-timers) that we wrote books to be read, not to make money. My position is this: Why did you go to a publisher if you didn't want to make some money?
We mostly all have dreams of seeing "Bestselling Author" next to our names and seeing the world. Or rebuilding our own. Or a statue in our home town.

Check out my autobiographical little work on the 'Share Your Work' nonfiction page. Maybe you will better understand me.

[Christine N.]

Whatever, G. If being cute is your way of backing off, that's fine. Maybe someone who's willing to listen at least, will see these posts. I'm never afraid to admit when I'm wrong (:tongue QoS) when someone points it out to me, and I know when I'm in over my head and the best thing to do is be quiet, listen and learn.

[smsarber]

Whatever, G. If being cute is your way of backing off, that's fine. Maybe someone who's willing to listen at least, will see these posts. I'm never afraid to admit when I'm wrong (:tongue QoS) when someone points it out to me, and I know when I'm in over my head and the best thing to do is be quiet, listen and learn.

Christine, we love ya. Don't worry about G-Dog. His bark is certainly worse than his bite. Some people have to be blow-hards, and are content to only hear (or read) their own voices. The things you say are insightful and intelligent. G-Dog border-line sticks up for PA half the time.

[James D. Macdonald]

More on the PAMB: The old timers like to say (and alot of the new-timers) that we wrote books to be read, not to make money.

There is a positive correlation between how many readers you have and how much money you make.

More readers = more money.

Less money means ... fewer readers.

It really is that simple.

[Ken Schneider]

And no writer that I know of ever fired their editor. Not the editor at their publisher.

I could see firing a personal editor, paid for. But as I understand the topic, You are assigned an editor by the publisher when your work is accepted.

They may have you re-write portions on the text.
They may have you expand on a certain area of the text.
Dump certain text and paragraphs and chapters.
They would check for historical facts.
And the rest I have no idea, as the above isn't enough work.

On another topiuc I've seen.

No, one would not have to have a formal education to write a book.

Though, they better know the ins and out of the English language, how to put together sentences and paragraphs and have a darned good story and characters the reader cares about.

You can't just sit down one day and write a story and think you'll get it published with no knowledge of the mechanics of writing and language.

Many a PA does just that. My former self included.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . Yes, editors do their job. Some to an outstanding job. But the statment made it seem like any old Joe could slap a book together and get it published, and the editor would fix it all. Which is so not true. . . . .
Thomas Wolfe's editor, Max Perkins hugely reorganized and edited Wolfe's drafts. But that was three generations ago, and Wolfe was a genius whose work was worth the effort. (I refer to the Thomas Wolfe of Look Homeward, Angel, Of Time and the River, You Can't Go Home Again, and others, not the current author Tom Wolfe.) Times have changed. (The editor's role in salvaging Wolfe's undisciplined drafts did not emerge until much, much later.)

If PA had gotten one of Wolfe's manuscripts . . . well we would not be discussing him now, as only a few of his friends and family would ever have seen the result.

BTW, here is an extract from an online bio:

The cuts and revisions that Perkins suggested changed the structure of the novel drastically; and although each alteration understandably troubled Wolfe at first, his respect and trust for Perkins continued to grow. Tom, after all, had queried Max when first peddling his manuscript to Scribner's: "If it is not publishable, can it be made so? . . . . I need a little honest help. If you are interested enough to finish the book, won't you give it to me?" Perkins indeed gave the book his full attention, and their working relationship was a productive one. Together, they decided on a new title for the work: Look Homeward, Angel, from a poem by Milton.
http://www.ah.dcr.state.nc.us/Sections/hs/wolfe/bio.htm

Some folks may still have an image of a publishing reality that died generations ago. What little might have remained in our generation has been murdered by the frenetic mergers and acquisitions among publishers and the relentless emphasis on "shareholder value."

--Ken

P.S. I read Of Time and the River about 40 years ago. It was such a wrenching experience that I never had the grit to reread it. Yet. But it sits on a nearby bookshelf, awaiting.

[smsarber]

Thomas Wolfe's editor, Max Perkins hugely reorganized and edited Wolfe's drafts. But that was three generations ago, and Wolfe was a genius whose work was worth the effort. (I refer to the Thomas Wolfe of Look Homeward, Angel, Of Time and the River, You Can't Go Home Again, and others, not the current author Tom Wolfe.) Times have changed. (The editor's role in salvaging Wolfe's undisciplined drafts did not emerge until much, much later.)

If PA had gotten one of Wolfe's manuscripts . . . well we would not be discussing him now, as only a few of his friends and family would ever have seen the result.
It sickens me to think how many of the truly great authors may have had their dreams shattered because a publishing agency wasn't what they expected. Thankfully it seems many of us have developoed a thick skin, and keep on striving for greatness. You will one day see my book on the shelves next to Stephen King: it will be an obvious mistake, since "King" and "Sarber" are nowhere close to each other in the alphabet, but it will be there.

[smsarber]

I have gone a bit overboard. Nothing unusual for me. I appologize, and I will try to keep it civil henceforth. Thank you, Uncle Jim, for the body-check.

[Sassenach]

It sickens me to think how many of the truly great authors may have had their dreams shattered because a publishing agency wasn't what they expected.

Most slush is crap. Most PA titles are slush. Very few writers [no matter their publisher] are "truly great." Therefore, you can safely be sickened by something truly tragic.

[smsarber]

Most slush is crap. Most PA titles are slush. Very few writers [no matter their publisher] are "truly great." Therefore, you can safely be sickened by something truly tragic.

I am not sure how to feel here; unfortunately, until I can change some things, I am still (purging sounds) a PA author, and I am truly great. What exactly were you saying?

[TwentyFour]

Sassenach is saying straight forward, in lets not dance around the subject terms, that PA publishes anything and most titles there were turned down by most publishers they were sent to.

As for you being great, that may be in eye of the beholder. I think Rebecca Wells is great, but there are probably ten to my one who believe she sucks. I like Stephen King and I've read many times here that he's a hack. It comes with the territory and we all suck to someone. (that sounds a bit dirty...lol)

[smsarber]

:flag: Ah, Yes; we do all suck to someone, and most of us to many people. But there is nothing wrong with a healthy self-image. If I was as great as I think I wouldn't be cooking for a living and writing as a (all-consuming) hobby.

[brianm]

:flag: Ah, Yes; we do all suck to someone, and most of us to many people. But there is nothing wrong with a healthy self-image. If I was as great as I think I wouldn't be cooking for a living and writing as a (all-consuming) hobby.

Steven,

Drop the PA label. You are a writer. A very talented one at that. You were going through a difficult time in your life, and you made the error of taking PA at their word. No reason to continue labeling yourself a PA author.

As for being great, well... hmmm... the line forms behind me.

There is nothing wrong with cooking for a living. My very first job when I came to America to attend university was catering lunches for offices in downtown Washington, DC. I made a tidy little sum my first summer and later in life, I owned a restaurant. Selling it was one of the stepping-stones allowing me now to write on a full time basis.

[spike]

I am not sure how to feel here; unfortunately, until I can change some things, I am still (purging sounds) a PA author, and I am truly great. What exactly were you saying?
Most slush is crap. I've heard estimates that only 5%-10% of slush is publishable.

PA publishes everything, good and bad. Not having read your work, we can all assume you are in the good part.

[Christine N.]

5%-10% is a very high estimate.

more like .5%.-1% and out of that, publishers pick an even smaller amount, because some are publishable but not salable/marketable/won't make them money.

See: slushkiller :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Some folks may still have an image of a publishing reality that died generations ago.

Even when Max Perkins was alive and working ... that wasn't the publishing norm (nor did Perkins himself act as the uncredited co-author for everyone he edited).

If you look at authors' correspondence from the 1920s, you'll see complaints about how editors don't edit any more (not like the editors of the previous generation!) and how publishing is now a business and it's all about money, money, money.

[Sassenach]

I am not sure how to feel here; unfortunately, until I can change some things, I am still (purging sounds) a PA author, and I am truly great. What exactly were you saying?

I was saying that Sturgeon's Law is particularly applicable to PA.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . If you look at authors' correspondence from the 1920s, you'll see complaints about how editors don't edit any more (not like the editors of the previous generation!) and how publishing is now a business and it's all about money, money, money.
Can you cite examples and sources?

Thanks.

--Ken

[Tina]

Christine N. -

I am not going to have a merry-go-round on this editor subject, my blood pressure is too high as it stands today - and I am not going to start popping nitro's over this subject matter. ("'sunshine and roses' attitude" - my B...)

Sean D. Schaffer - Thank you for the advice; I really appreciate it!

Gary Rogers

Christine's views mirror everything I've read and heard about the publishing industry from agents, editors and CEOs of mega bookstores.

The best way to sum it up is a quote from an agent (whose name I do not have but I got the link from this forum): "In the 'good old days,' publishers invested lots of money in line editing to improve the quality of a writer's work. Today, a manuscript has to be nearly perfect at the time of its submission to pass muster with acquisitions editors. If a manuscript contains many 'cosmetic' errors the editor will reject it out of hand. Therefore, it is incumbant upon the writer to ensure that his submission does not contain spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors, poorly chosen words, an abundance of adjectives and adverbs, overuse of passive voice construction, etc."

The above is why I have re-written Chapter 1 of my novel approx 50 times.

On the subject of educated versus non-educated writers, I can only speak from my own experience. I was a writer before university (I didn't go until I was 30, although I did go to college - the latter can't usually grant a degree in Canada - at 17). University made me a better writer than I would have been without.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Even when Max Perkins was alive and working ... that wasn't the publishing norm (nor did Perkins himself act as the uncredited co-author for everyone he edited).

If you look at authors' correspondence from the 1920s, you'll see complaints about how editors don't edit any more (not like the editors of the previous generation!) and how publishing is now a business and it's all about money, money, money.

Byron griped about Murray, Austin griped about her low pay, Lady Ada griped about not getting any credit for her work with Babbage, and Mary Somerville griped about getting no respect from the authors she edited.

We could take this all the way back to cuneiform.

[zizban]

Christine's views mirror everything I've read and heard about the publishing industry from agents, editors and CEOs of mega bookstores.

The best way to sum it up is a quote from an agent (whose name I do not have but I got the link from this forum): "In the 'good old days,' publishers invested lots of money in line editing to improve the quality of a writer's work. Today, a manuscript has to be nearly perfect at the time of its submission to pass muster with acquisitions editors. If a manuscript contains many 'cosmetic' errors the editor will reject it out of hand. Therefore, it is incumbant upon the writer to ensure that his submission does not contain spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors, poorly chosen words, an abundance of adjectives and adverbs, overuse of passive voice construction, etc."

The above is why I have re-written Chapter 1 of my novel approx 50 times.

On the subject of educated versus non-educated writers, I can only speak from my own experience. I was a writer before university (I didn't go until I was 30, although I did go to college - the latter can't usually grant a degree in Canada - at 17). University made me a better writer than I would have been without.


I agree with this. My aunt is a retired editor and she used to say this stuff to me all the time. Editors are too busy a lot to waste time on a submission that doesn't have proper spelling or grammar or isn't formatted correctly (her biggest gripe: single spacing. She'd reject those without even reading a word).

[Christine N.]

And you certainly can produce such a manuscript without formal writer training. While I'm college educated, my degree is in something totally unrelated to writing or English.

I learned more about writing from reading and practice and critiques than I think I would have from a formal class. Yanno beyond the English Comp every college student is required to take.

Though my mother was an English teacher and my aunt a Middle School Librarian. So that may have something to do with it...

[zizban]

I have a degree in English. I'm not sure it has made me a better writer but it has made me a better editor.

[James D. Macdonald]

Can you cite examples and sources?

Thanks.

--Ken

Letters of H. P. Lovecraft, et al.

[htack210]

I have been a member of this forum for quite some time. I don't get over here much, but I read the email excerpts every time I get them. I have learned quite a bit from all of you.

I am a former PA victim who managed to get his book freed from the clutches of the PA contract. I think I have learned my lesson. As a result, I am much more cautious about the writing business novice that I am.

My question is this. It seems a fair number of you are published authors, editors, or agents -- or you have contact with such people in the industry. How does someone like me get in contact with such people?

I admit that my writing is a bit of an "odd bird." It is science fiction with a decidedly Christian world view. I do know that people who have read my work have liked it and wanted more; and this is from folks who are not typically sci-fi fans. Where do I go to get someone to at least consider my work? Most of my Internet searches land me on scammers' sites, and given my experience with PA, I would prefer not to be burned again. I welcome your input.

[James D. Macdonald]

On the subject of educated versus non-educated writers, I can only speak from my own experience.

Before WWII, most Americans in the class that produces writers (middle-class mainstream culture with time to write) weren't college educated. Hence, most writers weren't college educated. After WWII, most Americans in the writerly class have been college educated. Hence, most writers are college educated. I suspect that college educated writers are not cause-and-effect.

[James D. Macdonald]

How does someone like me get in contact with such people?

With a query letter that includes an SASE.

Seriously, go to a bookstore. Find books on the shelf that are like yours in some way. Find the publisher. Get that publisher's guidelines. Follow those guidelines to the letter.

Here's a set that might suit you: http://www.tor-forge.com/Faq.aspx

But all this is off-topic for PA. Try over in Ask the Agent (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=58), Ask the Editor (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59), Novels (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2), Science Fiction (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39), or Religious (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=61).

[Tina]

G-Dog border-line sticks up for PA half the time.

Absolutely ridiculous. This is 100% inaccurate.

[Sheryl Nantus]

I agree with this. My aunt is a retired editor and she used to say this stuff to me all the time. Editors are too busy a lot to waste time on a submission that doesn't have proper spelling or grammar or isn't formatted correctly (her biggest gripe: single spacing. She'd reject those without even reading a word).

exactly.

it's rather like those friends we all have who come racing up to us and say "I've got a great idea for a book!" and then never go any further. It may *be* a great idea and all that, but if you can't communicate it to the publisher, the editor is NOT going to rewrite it for you. That's *YOUR* job as a writer.

[Sheryl Nantus]

And you certainly can produce such a manuscript without formal writer training. While I'm college educated, my degree is in something totally unrelated to writing or English.

I learned more about writing from reading and practice and critiques than I think I would have from a formal class. Yanno beyond the English Comp every college student is required to take.

Though my mother was an English teacher and my aunt a Middle School Librarian. So that may have something to do with it...

actually, I believe the best way to be a good writer is to be a good READER... read often, read different genres and read everything you can get your hands on.

the number of PA victims who claim to never visit a bookstore nor purchase books astonds me... how can you write a book when you never read them?

[James D. Macdonald]

"I have a great idea for a book! You write it and we can split the money!"

I hear that all the darned time.

Ideas are the easy part. I have a dozen good ideas a day, on a slow day. I don't need anyone else's.

# Watt-Evans' Law of Literary Creation (http://www.watt-evans.com/lawsoffantasy.html): There is no idea so stupid or hackneyed that a sufficiently-talented writer can't get a good story out of it.

# Feist's Corollary: There is no idea so brilliant or original that a sufficiently-untalented writer can't screw it up.

[Gravity]

My question is this. It seems a fair number of you are published authors, editors, or agents -- or you have contact with such people in the industry. How does someone like me get in contact with such people?

I admit that my writing is a bit of an "odd bird." It is science fiction with a decidedly Christian world view.

htack: try a site called www.wherethemapends.com (http://www.wherethemapends.com). It's run by a fellow named Jeff Gerke, who at one time was senior acquisitions editor at Realms, the Christian speculative fiction house. The site's huge (lots of tips, links, alien landscape artwork, writing clinics, author interviews, etc.), and Jeff knows his stuff. Hope that helps!

[smsarber]

"Are we supposed to care? No offense to the friends of G.R. and T.S., but they bring meyham with them wherever they go. Lighten up. Pop all the nitro you need to ... schietz!" - smsarber

Listen up! You have raised the ire of this New Yorker. Who are you to pass judgment? Tracy & me have been on this forum for a number of YEARS now. I have seen the likes of you come and go. You have not experienced what we have experienced, what we have done, and instituted change like we have.

So before you start disrespecting us, look in the mirror. For the reflection is not true to form. We will not be insulted by you or anyone on this board - DO YOU UNDERSTAND? We express our opinion like everyone else. If we error - Okay, that IS THE PROCESS OF LEARNING!

I have nothing more to say on this subject. Oh, Yeah, smsarber, consider yourself - IGNORED!

Gary Rogers

Since when does 22 months constitute years??
What do you see when you look in the mirror? If you are insulted by me, then you are not ignoring me. All I want to see is for you to practice a little humbleness and common courtesy towards the fairer sex. AKA; WOMEN. Your err'd opinion is the process of learning?? Help us all, Oh Exalted one!!

[Gravity]

Got a feeling this thread's headed south, fast...

[James D. Macdonald]

Please, everyone, calm, and assume good intentions and good will.

[Tina]

Since when does 22 months constitute years??
What do you see when you look in the mirror? If you are insulted by me, then you are not ignoring me. All I want to see is for you to practice a little humbleness and common courtesy towards the fairer sex. AKA; WOMEN. Your err'd opinion is the process of learning?? Help us all, Oh Exalted one!!

smsarber, new to this board, treated Gary and Tracy in a way I ALSO deem awful. Gary and Tracy posts have always been humble and courteous - unlike Mr. Sarber's today. Why else would Uncle Jim have called him out?

"Fair sex"? Don't do us any favours (and join the 21st century). What everyone on this board (male or female) wants is to be treated politely without unfair allegations like "G-dog borderline siding with PA."

I believe smsarber owes Gary and Tracy an apology. Smsarber probably won't agree, but that won't exactly surprise me.

[James D. Macdonald]

Guys, I'm not calling anyone out, but I am saying that bickering isn't in anyone's best interests ... other than Willem's, that is.

There's no law that says anyone has to read, far less reply to, any post or series of posts.

Please, let's let it go.

[Old Hack]

In my opinion, the best way to get away from PA's clutches is, as Uncle Jim has so often said, to write a better book. And, funnily enough, that's the quickest way I know to find yourself in the company of agents who court you and publishers who are eager to get into a bidding war in order to win your book for their lists. Write a book that is so good they can't ignore you. That's all you have to do.

[brianm]

In my opinion, the best way to get away from PA's clutches is, as Uncle Jim has so often said, to write a better book. And, funnily enough, that's the quickest way I know to find yourself in the company of agents who court you and publishers who are eager to get into a bidding war in order to win your book for their lists. Write a book that is so good they can't ignore you. That's all you have to do.

It also helps to own a machine gun wielding cat to pick off your competition. :D Sorry, OH, couldn't resist.

Now here's a loaded question from PAMB. By the way, the OP is the one who complained about receiving the link to a bewares page about PA yesterday.

Would someone share their thoughts
of the list of 100 friends/family members?

Thanks.

[BenPanced]

Would someone share their thoughts
of the list of 100 friends/family members?

Thanks.
If every one of your 100 friends and family members told two other people about your book and they told two friends, etc., blah blah blah woof woof, it's that many more sales and that much more $$$ come next royalty time. Because after all, word of mouth is the best advertising for your PA book! The big guys (boo! hiss!) aren't going to do it for you, so you have to do it yourself! *shakes fist at sky, railing against "them"* Once you've sold a bajillion copies of your wonderful book (and it will happen!), then the "real" bookstores will take notice and they'll HAVE TO sell your book! It's been published! You're entitled!

Have I missed anything? Other than the part about how this isn't how it's going to work?

[TwentyFour]

smsarber, new to this board, treated Gary and Tracy in a way I ALSO deem awful. Gary and Tracy posts have always been humble and courteous - unlike Mr. Sarber's today. Why else would Uncle Jim have called him out?

"Fair sex"? Don't do us any favours (and join the 21st century). What everyone on this board (male or female) wants is to be treated politely without unfair allegations like "G-dog borderline siding with PA."

I believe smsarber owes Gary and Tracy an apology. Smsarber probably won't agree, but that won't exactly surprise me.
I totally agree with you! I'm a woman and both Tracy and Roger have never been anything but nice to me. I'd at least hope you, Smsarber, would give an apology, if not in public, one in email...

I hope you too remember the number one rule here, respect your fellow author!

[ResearchGuy]

Letters of H. P. Lovecraft, et al.
Uh . . . thanks . . .

--Ken

[smsarber]

I have gone a bit overboard. Nothing unusual for me. I appologize, and I will try to keep it civil henceforth. Thank you, Uncle Jim, for the body-check.
Okay, I realize I have been an a**hole to some very well intentioned members. I had apologized once. I will apologize again. I thought the treatment of Christine N. was despicable. But I handled it in a very immature fashion. And Christine did not ask for, or need my help. I ask Gary and Tracy for forgiveness.
As far as my mention that Gary and Tracy stick up for PA, I am new, and I joined this thread at royalty time. If you track back to G&T's posts then, they complained (in my opinion) about how everyone bitches at PA at royalty time. I'm sure I was mistaken, I apologize.
Now, we can start fresh, I hope.

[MacAllister]

That's awfully nice of you, SM, and thanks.

No worries. I'm certain everyone will settle down a bit.

[spike]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20162

So it appears if history bares repeating itself we could be on the edge of a new age in publishing. All we need now are the publishers to realize that whether a book is mass marketed or is p.o.d. it still must be properly marketed. Not only by the author, but a significant push must come from the house as well, otherwise you are simply cutting down trees.

If on average it takes three days to a week for our publisher to edit our books, why not spend the same time marketing that book. Instead of rushing to publish the next 125 or so which may only sell 1-100 help out the author with some concerted marketing which only a publisher has the means, the contacts and do far better than the author.

I guess what I am saying in my own very long winded way, is that i hope P.A. is now edging towards a controlled growth cycle with over 20,000 authors on the books and no million sellars it may now be time to sift through those they have, make a few hard decisions and pare down those numbers to more manageable ones


This guy is getting awfully close to saying that PA is an author mill.

[zizban]

That's wishful fantasy on his part as well.

[Christine N.]

You mean he wants to be treated the way other publishers treat their authors?

For shame! ;)

[Glenda]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20162



This guy is getting awfully close to saying that PA is an author mill.

It wont be long before he will be here needing guidance and consoling.

[spike]

It wont be long before he will be here needing guidance and consoling.

Let's put a chair out for him and put some coffee on!

[spike]

How Harry Potter's 12 million print run helps us. The new Harry Potter book will get a 12 million initial print run. The marketing machine will be in full effect. This helps us by putting a book front and center for entertainment dollars being spent, drawing people into book stores and creating a book buying aura that we can hopefully tap into. I know we don't have the machine at work that J. K. Rowling does but we can employ the old business term of trying to get under the umbrella of a giant and do some business.


Only if your books are stocked bookstores; which, for the most part, they aren't.

[Sassenach]

Only if your books are stocked bookstores; which, for the most part, they aren't.

Even if they were. this theory makes no sense.

[DeadlyAccurate]

People going into the bookstore to buy HP are more likely to browse for other books. That's why plenty of stores will put a guaranteed product like HP out as a loss leader. But if your book isn't actually in bookstores, it won't make a difference.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, my publicist, editor and I discussed having a signing during the HP release weekend.

It was decided that, in theory, it would be a good idea, no CRM in their right mind would schedule a signing that day. Or even that weekend. Possibly not that whole week. They've got enough to worry about.

[Rolling Thunder]

People going into the bookstore to buy HP are more likely to browse for other books. That's why plenty of stores will put a guaranteed product like HP out as a loss leader. But if your book isn't actually in bookstores, it won't make a difference.

I can't see this happening though, DA. I have a feeling all the hype will mean; mad dash in, grab, buy, run for home.

[Jersey Chick]

Or you have the people like me - who ordered it so it's delivered to their house. I made the mistake of going into a bookstore the day it was released for The Order of the Phoenix and I will never do that again! :)

[Sassenach]

People going into the bookstore to buy HP are more likely to browse for other books. That's why plenty of stores will put a guaranteed product like HP out as a loss leader. But if your book isn't actually in bookstores, it won't make a difference.

True. I meant that even if some PA titles were in the store, why would anyone choose them out of the thousands of other titles?

[James D. Macdonald]

I can't see this happening though, DA. I have a feeling all the hype will mean; mad dash in, grab, buy, run for home.

There will be Mounds of Tempting Stuff piled up beside the path to the cash registers.

[JimmyD1318]

There will be Mounds of Tempting Stuff piled up beside the path to the cash registers.


But how much you want to bet that none of it will be PA books. And if it was.....the price would keep anyone from buying it.:)

[AnneMarble]

I can't see this happening though, DA. I have a feeling all the hype will mean; mad dash in, grab, buy, run for home.
If they buy it during one of those special events, when they wait in line to buy it at midnight, there will be lots of chances to buy more stuff. ;) You have to get there hours before. Then the stores often have mini events such as photographs, often in the children's section, so people will be bound to see other books they might want. Then there's waiting in this line or that line. Oh and let's not forget the extra lattes they will sell... :D

[James D. Macdonald]

The stuff will be items with Really High Profit Margins (like boxes of candy or coffee mugs), or impulse purchase/tie-in items (an official Hermione Booklight), or books that the publishers have paid Big Bucks to be stacked there.

No, no PA books. But we knew that anyway.

Did you ever look at the layout of a big-box bookstore, how they arrange the traffic patterns to take the people who are looking for specific items past lots of other offerings on their way in and out?

When the Harry Potter books are released I bet the Special Displays will be all the way against the back wall so customers will have to walk through the whole store, past every single end-cap and display table -- twice! -- to get a copy.

[Rolling Thunder]

Might just be me then. I'm the hit and run type. The sooner I get home and crack open the book, the happier I am. :)

[LeslieB]

I can't see this happening though, DA. I have a feeling all the hype will mean; mad dash in, grab, buy, run for home.

Dash... in...?

*boggles*

You've never been in a bookstore when an HP book is being released, have you? Yes, you can dash in, then get in line behind the several hundred people who have been there since 4 P.M. to buy the book at midnight. And the smart stores give out place-in-line numbers so people can spend those hours browsing through the shelves.

Though your strategy can work, just not in a bookstore. When the last book came out, we bundled up the kids and made an event out of going to the 24-hour Walmart. They brought out the books on pallets with forklifts. I spent less than ten minutes in line getting our books while my husband and girls shopped for all-nighter treats. (What? I read better with a bowl of ice cream, don't you?)

[TwentyFour]

I'd not wait in line for a HP book, not even for my son. I will order one or wait till it's out on the shelf and all alone with no one circling it like a buzzard over a dead cow.

[spike]

Yeah, my publicist, editor and I discussed having a signing during the HP release weekend.

It was decided that, in theory, it would be a good idea, no CRM in their right mind would schedule a signing that day. Or even that weekend. Possibly not that whole week. They've got enough to worry about.


Most of the bookstores by me are having Harry Potter parties. I can't imagine trying to have a signing with all those kids running around.

[Glenda]

I'd not wait in line for a HP book, not even for my son. I will order one or wait till it's out on the shelf and all alone with no one circling it like a buzzard over a dead cow.

Same here.

[Rolling Thunder]

Dash... in...?

*boggles*

You've never been in a bookstore when an HP book is being released, have you?

You assume that every store is packed, Leslie. I have been just as surprised to see the reverse. Can't explain it, myself. But it has happened.

[smsarber]

You know what, I haven't even heard of a new H.P. book. And I was just in Borders in Crestwood Mo. yesterday. Of course, I am allowed to miss out on H.P. still; my son is only five. I did have to buy him a Spongebob book. Brilliant piece of ****, that was. The stories aren't even written, or drawn by the same people who do the show. I know this has nothing to do with PA, so I am going to throw in a bone. PA sucks---- end of story.

[LeslieB]

You assume that every store is packed, Leslie. I have been just as surprised to see the reverse. Can't explain it, myself. But it has happened.

It's probably just the different locations. I live in a large metro area, and pretty much all the bookstores are major chains. They are packed to the rafters during an HP launch, even the local news covers it. That's why we went somewhere else last time. For the book before that Amazon messed up our order, and we didn't want to fight the stores, so we found an alternative.

[Christine N.]

I'm thinking of going to a small indie store that's having a launch party instead of the big box.

[Pagey's_Girl]

Off-topic, I know, but I just realized you're all talking about Harry Potter, not HP Lovecraft.

I am sooooo out of it.

[Tina]

From what I've seen of the stores in my area (especially the 'big box' Indigo) the hooplah, costumes, waiting, snacks and New Year's Eve-like celebration at midnight mean the only thing anyone wants to talk about or even think about is Harry Potter.

I believe the next movie is coming out around the same time this year, so the phenomena could be unprecedented.

Trying to sell a completely unrelated book with a respected commerical publisher, never mind a vanity somebody convinced the store to take, would be exceptionally difficult. Sort of like trying to convince shoppers to buy easter eggs on Christmas Eve...in the case of PA very expensive, sour tasting eggs.

[spike]

From what I've seen of the stores in my area (especially the 'big box' Indigo) the hooplah, costumes, waiting, snacks and New Year's Eve-like celebration at midnight mean the only thing anyone wants to talk about or even think about is Harry Potter.

I believe the next movie is coming out around the same time this year, so the phenomena could be unprecedented.

Trying to sell a completely unrelated book with a respected commerical publisher, never mind a vanity somebody convinced the store to take, would be exceptionally difficult. Sort of like trying to convince shoppers to buy easter eggs on Christmas Eve...in the case of PA very expensive, sour tasting eggs.

I think the secondary sales come from the parents. What do the parents do while their kids are eating the snacks and listening to HP excerpts being read? They browse. Hopefully they buy.

I heard it said that when people go to buy a book, they usually pick up another while they are at the bookstore. I know I can't leave with just one!

[spike]

Now, dont think for a minute that Amazon has a store some where with millions of books sitting on their shelves, because that is just not true. If you will purchase the book "How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz, which is offered on the front page of PA you will find that regardless of what you purchase at Amazon, it is print on demand. How do you think the videos, CDs are kept. Amazon has the rights to reproduce them and they of course get their discount from the publisher that is how they make their money


This is from the gentleman who doesn't care for bookstores.

Amazon does print on demand for everything they sell? That doesn't make sense to me, and CMIIW, why would a publisher allow that? I mean a commercial publisher? Would they really give up control over their product?

If this is indicative of the information in Meiner's book, then no wonder the PA people seem clueless!

Also, did anyone else notice that this gentleman is spamming the PA boards with suggestions to buy Meiner's book?

[Jersey Chick]

Um... I've ordered the last two Harry Potter books from Amazon. Am I wrong to assume that Scholastic published them, or does Amazon have a PDF file that they just run off, bind into hardcover, and ship out? Is it just me or does that make so little sense that it's almost silly?

And I've seen a reference to Meirs' book on a few posts lately.

[Christine N.]

That is a lie. Amazon has dozens of distribution hubs and warehouses. Everytime there's a big book release, the news shows footage of pallets of books on forklifts being moved around Amazon warehouses. They do, indeed, have millions of books sitting in warehouses. Books that don't sell are sent back to the distributor or publisher to be resold somwhere else or remaindered.

Most publishers have at least a couple copies of most of their current catalog in Amazon warehouse shelves. Or else how to they comply with things ordered on one-day shipping? My book, to take an example, is available for instant shipment - they have a copy or two on a shelf somewhere, they look in their computer to find where it is, then someone goes and fetches it an puts it in a box (buy two, give one as a gift!).

Only POD titles work the way the poster describes.

And some titles that they don't have readily available, then they order from the publisher who sends them to Amazon. Those titles usually say "available to ship in ..." 2-4 weeks or whatever.

[James D. Macdonald]

Amazon doesn't print the POD titles, either. Amazon takes the order, forwards it to Lightning Source, and LSI prints and ships the book.

There is just no economy of scale in electronic printing. That's why (outside of certain limited, niche uses) the major publishers use offset.

[spike]

Um... I've ordered the last two Harry Potter books from Amazon. Am I wrong to assume that Scholastic published them, or does Amazon have a PDF file that they just run off, bind into hardcover, and ship out? Is it just me or does that make so little sense that it's almost silly?

And I've seen a reference to Meirs' book on a few posts lately.

That's the exact word I used when I read the post: Silly!

[Christine N.]

Oh, and now... this thing cracks me up!

http://www.authorsmarket.net/ebooks.htm

Wow. Yeah, tell that to Ellora's cave, or even Samhain, which was just named and RWA approved publisher. The e-book requirement, I believe, for RWA is 5,000 copies (or 1.500 copies trade paperback).

PA lies again, or at least is twisting the facts. There are several writers who are with e-publishers who live off their royalties (which are generally a higher percentage than paperback) and yes, sell thousands of copies. E-books are bigger in certain genres than others, that's true, but this nonsense of them not selling many copies is just bullpuckey.

I'd wager that most well-known e-publishers outsell PA on any given day of the week. I know this was a deliberate dig at Dave K, just like the other 'believe your eyes' page was really about Ann, Victoria and Jim.

Silliness abounds.

[zizban]

I am a soon to be e-book author and I agree that the market just isn't there yet for them. There may be someday but people prefer the printed book and I agree.

[Jersey Chick]

I am also epubbed and no, I haven't sold thousands (yet ;)) but I am reaching people outside of my own town, my own state even, and I don't have to travel with a box of books in the trunk of my car, either. And I'd like to see any one PA book go up against almost any one from Ellora's Cave in terms of sales numbers.

But it seems their "facts" are like statistics, and polls, you can make them say anything you want and not be wrong - but that doesn't make them right either.

[DaveKuzminski]

I can state that some of the romance ebooks are selling in the thousands. PA authors can only wish their books could sell so well.

And yes, I have some ebooks that are outselling just about everything PA has to offer. The only way I can't compete is by buying my own like PA likes its authors to do. After all, I already have all the e-copies I'll ever need. Why should I buy any when I have an infinite supply? Like I'm going to spend my money to put it in my publisher's hands so he can then pay me a reduced amount while I go around trying to sell the copies I already owned?

No, that's not for me. I'll let my publishers do the selling instead. After all, they're sending me nice checks like the ones PA authors dream of receiving. Terrible thing is, I'm certain there are PA authors who can write better than me. I'm certain they could even outsell me, but they can't while they're with a scam publisher like PA.

[Sheryl Nantus]

This is from the gentleman who doesn't care for bookstores.

Amazon does print on demand for everything they sell? That doesn't make sense to me, and CMIIW, why would a publisher allow that? I mean a commercial publisher? Would they really give up control over their product?

If this is indicative of the information in Meiner's book, then no wonder the PA people seem clueless!

Also, did anyone else notice that this gentleman is spamming the PA boards with suggestions to buy Meiner's book?

it's rather obvious - he's probably getting some free books or a "bigger" discount for each copy of Meiner's silliness he sells.

funny thing is, he's about as subtle as a bulldozer - hopefully wiser minds will just turn away from his blatherings. His "ignorance" about the publishing world is staggering.

mind you, the fact that anyone is taking him seriously is just as staggering... common sense seems to be in short supply for those who dare to post on the PAMB these days. The wise ones just stay quiet and get out of their contracts as fast as they can.

[spike]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19964&start=15

OMG...it's PAmway!

I have two books with Publish America and it goes beyond book sales. They look at what you have done for the company, as well. I know I've introduced a lot of writers to Publish America. I'll continue to do so. If you want to get a second book published or a third, make some noise. Generate publicity, bring in new talent to the company.


Such scumminess!

[brianm]

That's AW member, Alien Enigma. You would think after all this time he would have finally seen the light. Bad enough that he supports PA, but leading lambs to the slaughter, and encouraging others to do the same is... well, words fail me without being rude and breaking AW's golden rule. He's also the one who has the "great secret" that will make his writing last throughout all time, or some such nonsense.

I can understand being taken in by PA's sticky scam net. I can understand needing time to accept the mistake one has made. I can understand feeling defensive, at first, for making that mistake. However, knowing all that he knows and still running about exclaiming the merits of this lying, scheming scam company is inexcuseable. Some refuse to see the truth. He's one of them.

[Sheryl Nantus]

as I've said before - I'm sure there are special levels in Hell for those who help PA victimize new authors... especially when they know better and continue to help feed the beast.

and, by gosh, there's a lot of names that I think make the cut.

:(

[smsarber]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAMB
Now, dont think for a minute that Amazon has a store some where with millions of books sitting on their shelves, because that is just not true. If you will purchase the book "How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz, which is offered on the front page of PA you will find that regardless of what you purchase at Amazon, it is print on demand. How do you think the videos, CDs are kept. Amazon has the rights to reproduce them and they of course get their discount from the publisher that is how they make their money

Saying that Amazon.com POD's its order is ludacris.
First; it would cost more than they could make. Scenario: customer A puts in an order for author B's book; Amazon orders itfrom publisher C at a discounted price. Shipping is included, or paid for by the customer, Amazon pockets the profit.
Second; it would take up more space to house a print house, toy plant, clothing manufacturing plant, etc....
So, do you think the guy who manufactured that idea is an idiot, or just that he thinks the rest of the world is stupid? Mingya!!

[JimmyD1318]

Quote:
So, do you think the guy who manufactured that idea is an idiot, or just that he thinks the rest of the world is stupid? Mingya!!

I wouldn't call him an idiot. Just someone trying anything and everything to legitimize PA. No one wants to feel like they have been made a fool of. When the house of cards they have built start to fall then they will think anything that comes to mind to make things make sense. But it's always the bookstores fault for not wanting to carry their books or their fault for not trying harder to get the word out on their book. But until they start to open their eyes to what has happen it is never PA's fault. I'm just glad I decided not to fall into PA's trap. But I can't help but feel sorry for the ones that have.

[spike]

I wouldn't call him an idiot. Just someone trying anything and everything to legitimize PA. No one wants to feel like they have been made a fool of. When the house of cards they have built start to fall then they will think anything that comes to mind to make things make sense. But it's always the bookstores fault for not wanting to carry their books or their fault for not trying harder to get the word out on their book. But until they start to open their eyes to what has happen it is never PA's fault. I'm just glad I decided not to fall into PA's trap. But I can't help but feel sorry for the ones that have.

You're mistaken. The person who manufactured those ideas is Willem Meiners, one of the big bosses at PA.

I think you are referring to the person who is quoting Meiners. And yes, I don't think he's an idiot. Just trying to convince others and himself that PA was not a big mistake.

[smsarber]

I'm sorry, did I call him an author? And I was referring to Meiners. He's trying to save a sinking ship, that isn't very bright. Let's not cuddle up to the enemy. Maybe he isn't an idiot, he has some business sense. But I tell you this, my prediction is that PA will have to close up shop within 24 months.

[JimmyD1318]

You're mistaken. The person who manufactured those ideas is Willem Meiners, one of the big bosses at PA.

I think you are referring to the person who is quoting Meiners. And yes, I don't think he's an idiot. Just trying to convince others and himself that PA was not a big mistake.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry for any confusion on my part.:D

[TwentyFour]

I'm sorry, did I call him an author? And I was referring to Meiners. He's trying to save a sinking ship, that isn't very bright. Let's not cuddle up to the enemy. Maybe he isn't an idiot, he has some business sense. But I tell you this, my prediction is that PA will have to close up shop within 24 months.
We have enemies? :Shrug:

I bet Darth Vader and Lex Luther are the head men of PA, and Poison Ivy is the female of the group...hehe...

[brianm]

This was posted earlier today up thread.

I have two books with Publish America and it goes beyond book sales. They look at what you have done for the company, as well. I know I've introduced a lot of writers to Publish America. I'll continue to do so. If you want to get a second book published or a third, make some noise. Generate publicity, bring in new talent to the company.

Here’s a response from another PA member.

Hi Jeff--why would I want to bring new talent in to a company that doesnt market it's authors and is only interested in selling books back to the author?

This member has seen the light. I expect it won’t last long on PAMB, that’s why I took a screenshot of that page. Never know when someone may need one of the screenshots I’m filing away.

[smsarber]

We have enemies? :Shrug:

I bet Darth Vader and Lex Luther are the head men of PA, and Poison Ivy is the female of the group...hehe...

Personally I would vote for spidey to go wipe up some PA dirt. I could play Superman- trust me!

Are we cool now??

[TwentyFour]

I'm just pullin' your leg, sometimes it's fun to pick at someone over tiny details of their sentence.

People do it to me all the time...I have to pass it down to someone new. ;)

[benbradley]

Hi folks, I was just passing through and ...
...

The best way to sum it up is a quote from an agent (whose name I do not have but I got the link from this forum): "In the 'good old days,' publishers invested lots of money in line editing to improve the quality of a writer's work. Today, a manuscript has to be nearly perfect at the time of its submission to pass muster with acquisitions editors. If a manuscript contains many 'cosmetic' errors the editor will reject it out of hand. Therefore, it is incumbant
* cringe *

Of all places to do that...wondering if this is this a copy/paste of the exact quote... you can read the rest of the paragraph while I do some net.research:
upon the writer to ensure that his submission does not contain spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors, poorly chosen words, an abundance of adjectives and adverbs, overuse of passive voice construction, etc."
Okay, I found two online copies of the above paragraph:
http://www.brendahillseaman.com/todaysfictionmarket.htm
http://pages.prodigy.net/jimcypher/fiction.htm
Fortunately, they both appear to attribute the writing to the same person, the first to a James R. Cypher and the second (from the URL) a Jim Cypher.
But in both websites, incumbent is correctly spelled. So it wasn't an exact copy/paste, and how a correctly spelled word got misspelled is left as an exercise for the reader.:)
And I'll leave you with this interesting website:
http://pages.prodigy.net/jimcypher/

[spike]

This was posted earlier today up thread.

Quote:
I have two books with Publish America and it goes beyond book sales. They look at what you have done for the company, as well. I know I've introduced a lot of writers to Publish America. I'll continue to do so. If you want to get a second book published or a third, make some noise. Generate publicity, bring in new talent to the company.
Here’s a response from another PA member.

Quote:
Hi Jeff--why would I want to bring new talent in to a company that doesnt market it's authors and is only interested in selling books back to the author?
This member has seen the light. I expect it won’t last long on PAMB, that’s why I took a screenshot of that page. Never know when someone may need one of the screenshots I’m filing away.


Is the guy questioning PA the cute guy whose pic looks like it was taken on a boat?

[Tina]

Hi folks, I was just passing through and ...

* cringe *

Of all places to do that...wondering if this is this a copy/paste of the exact quote... you can read the rest of the paragraph while I do some net.research:

Okay, I found two online copies of the above paragraph:
http://www.brendahillseaman.com/todaysfictionmarket.htm
http://pages.prodigy.net/jimcypher/fiction.htm
Fortunately, they both appear to attribute the writing to the same person, the first to a James R. Cypher and the second (from the URL) a Jim Cypher.
But in both websites, incumbent is correctly spelled. So it wasn't an exact copy/paste, and how a correctly spelled word got misspelled is left as an exercise for the reader.:)
And I'll leave you with this interesting website:
http://pages.prodigy.net/jimcypher/

The "exercise" was mine - I was typing from hard copy as I'd lost the link. I was also typing during my work break and was rushed.

I believe the message is far more important. If I were to point out every spelling mistake I found on this thread (or many others) besides being petty, there would be no time to do anything else.

I'm a better writer than web searcher (and I edit the heck out of whatever I send to agents/editors) so thanks for finding the link.

The message, PA lurkers, is that getting published is difficult, very difficult. If it seems too easy, there might be a reason.

[brianm]

Is the guy questioning PA the cute guy whose pic looks like it was taken on a boat?

Uh, he wears glasses. Does that make for cute? I do have screenshots of that thread that shows his reply was deleted. Aren't I cute?:D Actually, I have a number of screenshots now that prove PA is deleting or moving replies from the public board.

[Arkie]

Uh, he wears glasses. Does that make for cute? I do have screenshots of that thread that shows his reply was deleted. Aren't I cute?:D Actually, I have a number of screenshots now that prove PA is deleting or moving replies from the public board.


PA has always removed posts from both the public and private boards. Sometimes they move a borderline negative post from the public board to the private board and if the discussion becomes to heated or negative on the private board they will delete it.

The public board has to be kept positive since it is a recruiting tool for new authors. About the only time a negative poster is going to stick for long on the public board is late Saturday night or in the wee hours of Sunday.

[James D. Macdonald]

The fact that PA removes factual information from their boards shows that they are aware of those facts but try to conceal them.

That would, in my mind, tend to prove fraud.

[Arkie]

Another PA tactic, which I don't believe is widely known, is that they edit posts. For example, a poster can post a long message and sometimes insert a negative sentence or paragraph in the middle, come back a little later and find the offending passage deleted and a post left that often does not make sense.

Often, it is members of AW that detects a negative passage on the PA board, calls attention to it, or ports it over here. The PA monitors, who may have missed it on their own board, picks it up right away since they monitor this board and of course they quickly delete the offending post or edit out the negative material.

[emsuniverse]

You know, we should start a thread called "FOR THE PA PEOPLE". Since they monitor this board so much. We should give them a treat.

[brianm]

A PA member started a thread on PAMB a couple weeks ago entitled, "Disapointed" (sic). PA later changed the thread title to "Returns", deleted additional posts by the member, banned the member from PAMB, and removed his book from their web page. All this, because he was questioning being charged back for royalties on returned books that had never been sold.

He is a member of AW now, although he has only posted twice. Here's a link to his web page where he talks about how he has been treated by PA.

http://www.freewebs.com/thegalacticseven/guestbook.htm

What kind of company treats its authors in this manner? Unfortunately, this is the norm for PA. He is just one of many who have come to realize that PA is a vanity press who makes their money off of their authors.

[Old Hack]

How about starting a thread which details the changes we'd like PA to make to their behaviour? For example, Jim mentioned upstream that if they were more open about their business habits he'd have no objection to them. If they didn't tie people in to a seven year contract, I'd be happier. If someone with experience of USA publishing best-practice starts off and details a few PA-related things they have problems with, we can then all add to it. So long as we keep to the point there, it would make a very useful reference. What does everyone think?