The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

[Scribhneoir]

One stated motivation for this thread is to save authors from Publish America. While such motivation is understandable, it's hard to know how successful it is, since, in essence, it involves measuring a negative.

True, we'll never know exactly how many writers were saved from PA by this thread or any others showing PA's true colors. But it's clear from PA's increasingly desperate attempts to get money out of their authors that this thread has had a noticeable effect on their business. No more free author copies, prices jacked up to even more ridiculous levels, framed royalty checks (just $19.95!), weekly e-mails offering one more last-ever discount deal. Writers have wised up, no doubt in part because of the never-ending nature of this thread. It doesn't matter how many writers that may be or whether they ever come here to be counted -- they're out there.

[Eirin]

That's what you are signing, your agreement that gives PA the rights to your book and total discretion as to what they want to do with it.
You receive a dollar in return.

READ THE CONTRACT.
READ THE CONTRACT.
READ THE CONTRACT.

And keep in mind, while you read, that the contract is specifically and intentionally crafted to confuse and mislead. It's been said before and it bears repeating; PAs contract cannot be properly understood unless you assume malicious intent on PAs side.

There are also a number of issues not adressed in the PA contract, such as pricing, product quality, bookseller discount- and paymentprograms etc. Not that you'd find those issues mentioned in a regular contract with a commercial publisher either, any more than you'd find promises to put in pagenumbers or chapterheadings. All that is assumed, else the publisher wouldn't be able to sell the book to the general reading public and recuperate their outlay.
The operative words here are, of course, "sell to the general reading public".

Another thing to note. PA has been in business for, what, ten years now? They have tens of thousands titles in print, yet not a single bestseller among them. Not a single one. In fact, I believe they have, numberwise, more titles in print than they have sold of any one title.
That's...statistically improbable, at best.
Or would be, for a real, commercial publisher.

[Queen of Swords]

And keep in mind, while you read, that the contract is specifically and intentionally crafted to confuse and mislead.

It's easy to do everything that a contract says you will do... when that contract ensures you don't have to do anything.

[cdoctor13]

Also the contract is designed so the author sees what they want to see in it, not actually what is written.

[Arkie]

When I was on that board, I once posted about the simplicity of their contract and stated that it looked like an 8th grader had written it. They didn't leave the post up very long. What PA authors have to watch is the qualifying statments where the publisher is mentioned. Such as "as required," or "at the publisher's discretion." These statements leave PA an out and they don't actually have to do anything to help the author, and they don't.

Where the author gets psychologically hammered is in the paragraph that states in effect the author agrees to promote the book. Much too late, authors realize they cannot promote a book effectively without books on hand, and of course PA stands by to sell authors all the books they need, at a discount of course.

[DaveKuzminski]

What? You mean those bookmarks and lollipop trees aren't enough promotion or effective on their own?

[Eirin]

What? You mean those bookmarks and lollipop trees aren't enough promotion or effective on their own?

Nah. You need some of those flyers to stick under windshield wipers for really innovative marketing and promo.

[Sparhawk]

And don't forget establishing sales counters at optometrists, hairdressers and Jiffy Lube's across the fruited plain.

[JulieB]

Ya forgot toilet stalls.

(I see so much promotional material - including for books - in toilet stalls these days. Captive audience, I guess.)

[Eirin]

Ya forgot toilet stalls.

In short, everywhere books aren't sold.

That's PA for you, all the way down the line.

[James D. Macdonald]

In short, everywhere books aren't sold.

That's PA for you, all the way down the line.

But ... but ... according to the PAMB books aren't sold in bookstores, so naturally they have to be sold in toilet stalls. It stands to reason!

[Eirin]

Heh. Okay then, let me rephrase:

That's PA for you, all the way down the drain.

[CatSlave]

When I was on that board, I once posted about the simplicity of their contract and stated that it looked like an 8th grader had written it. They didn't leave the post up very long. What PA authors have to watch is the qualifying statments where the publisher is mentioned. Such as "as required," or "at the publisher's discretion." These statements leave PA an out and they don't actually have to do anything to help the author, and they don't.

Where the author gets psychologically hammered is in the paragraph that states in effect the author agrees to promote the book. Much too late, authors realize they cannot promote a book effectively without books on hand, and of course PA stands by to sell authors all the books they need, at a discount of course.
bolding mine

In addition, PA covers its arse from the misleading statements on the website with Clause #23 of the PA contract:

23. The Author acknowledges that the Publisher has not made any prior pledges, promises, guarantees, inducements,
of whatever nature, either in writing, by word of mouth, or in any form, that are not contained in the terms of this agreement.

So PA can say anything it wants on the PAMB, on their website, in their emails to the authors.
This clause absolves them from any misapprehension YOU make about their services.

[Don Davidson]

I return to AW about once a month and read as many discussions as time permits. One stated motivation for this thread is to save authors from Publish America. While such motivation is understandable, it's hard to know how successful it is, since, in essence, it involves measuring a negative.

Certainly, people have posted messages indicating that what they have read at AW dissuaded them from going with PA, and that's good. However, the overall effectiveness of this thread will remain unknown, since the people who choose to go with PA anyway are not likely to post.

Furthermore, I find the effort here, noble as it may be, to be somewhat akin to an overprotective parent who hovers over a child in order to shield him or her from mistakes. Actually, it's probably worse, since a child has an excuse for being naive, but a prospective author who hasn't done sufficient research doesn't. "Let the buyer beware" and "You made your bed...." are valid and so is the notion that we learn best from our mistakes. If, after all that has been written and said about PA, people continue to submit their work to them, I say Let 'em! Perhaps the experience will lead to their writing a better book and getting a better publisher.

I come late to this conversation, but I have to add my two cents worth. AW kept me from wasting any money on PA, even though I found AW too late to avoid signing the contract. AW also taught me enough about how PA really operates to convince me to save copies of all of my correspondence with PA and post it on a web site. About once a month someone emails me from my web site to say that they won't be signing a contract with PA or won't be sending them any more money because of what they read there. I'm sure AW has an even greater reach.

Please don't be hard on those of us who fell for PA's lies. PA employs very good liars indeed, and they appear to be completely without scruples. The naive and ignorant among us are easy prey for them. This thread is fighting the good fight by helping to stamp out such ignorance. As long as there is a PA, there will be a need for the NEPAT.

[Queen of Swords]

Please don't be hard on those of us who fell for PA's lies.

I find that it's not the "bashers" who tend to be dismissive of PA authors. It's the PA apologists.

[DaveKuzminski]

It's especially grating to hear the PA apologists tell other PA authors that they should have read their contracts more carefully. In a world where the other party lives up to the "spirit" of what the contract is supposed to accomplish, that would be true, but it's an impossibility when the other party is determined to make the contract work only for them and not both parties as contracts are envisioned to work.

[merrihiatt]

But ... but ... according to the PAMB books aren't sold in bookstores, so naturally they have to be sold in toilet stalls. It stands to reason!

Or, in this case, it sits to reason! Sorry, I couldn't resist. ** giggling madly **

[smsarber]

Or, in this case, it sits to reason! Sorry, I couldn't resist. ** giggling madly **
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! Don't flush... that's my life's work in there!!

[JulieB]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! Don't flush... that's my life's work in there!!

Don't even need a publisher for that. (Guess who's struggling with a WIP today? [grin])

[Deb Kinnard]

I don't personally know anyone who's flushed a book down PA...but I do read this thread once in awhile.

I understand they publish anything and everything sent to them. Wonder if they'd publish a compendium of these stories, entitled NEPAT? Tempting, isn't it, to see if terrific author Abbie Wright could get it "published" by them before they knew what they were about.

[LexiCan]

Okay, here's the latest customer email from PA. Scores the highest so far on the crap-o-meter. It blows my mind how the emphasize "free" while the whole purpose of the email is to reach for your credit card. Baaahhh!

Dear Author,

Due to popular demand, prolongued through Friday!

Thank you!

PublishAmerica has been around now for almost 10 years; our anniversary is coming up soon! Thank you for helping us serve you and almost 40,000 other talented authors. This has been a Big decade! It has been a decade of tens of thousands of dreams that have come true, including yours, and our own. We wanted to publish America, and that's precisely what we are doing. Thank you. We built it, you came.

Thanks to you and your tens of thousands of peers PublishAmerica has grown into the world's biggest and fastest growing no-cost, low-barrier traditional publishing house. At zero expense to the author, we are releasing a new book every sixteen minutes, more than ever before in our ten years!

Every week more than 150 new authors are joining your ranks, close to eight thousand per year. Every month more than 250 PublishAmerica authors ask us to also publish their next book, two thousand second-book authors just in the first seven months of this year alone. These are stunning numbers in our industry. For one reason only: because you have made this publishing house. We built it, but you made it.

Thank you for having written such a wide variety of quality works of fiction and non-fiction. Many sell like hot cakes! Hardcover orders keep going through the roof. This year, more than two thousand bookstores are hosting events for PublishAmerica authors (contact us at BookSignings@publishamerica.com (http://webmail.sc.rr.com/do/mail/message/mailto?to=BookSignings%40publishamerica.com) if you want us to schedule an event for you!). A million books have been sold to bookstores.

Thank you!


Two more days, we're giving away 10 hardcover books, for FREE, to authors who want to have extra books on hand.

Those who order 20 or more softcovers will receive a 50 pct discount, plus those 10 hardcovers for free. Orders of 30 softcovers receive 15 hardcovers for free, 40 softcovers get 20 hardcovers for free, etc.

Phone orders only, at 301 695 1707, between 9am - 5pm EST. Sorry, full-color books are excluded. Special sales code: Thanks. Be very quick: Offer expires this Friday, August 28.

[Gillhoughly]

:Gillhoughly's bull***t meter maxes out:


http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/357/357094/folders/273650/2183619BS-meter2.gif





Dear PA Lurker, what they REALLY mean:


PublishAmerica has been around now for almost 10 years; our anniversary is coming up soon! Thank you for helping us serve you and almost 40,000 other talented authors victims with deep pockets. This has been a Big decade! It has been a decade of tens of thousands of dreams nightmares that have come true, including yours, and our own. We wanted to publish fleece America of every penny we can scrape out of their bank accounts, and that's precisely what we are doing. Thank you. We built it fudged the facts on the website so we look legit, you came didn't bother researching and fell for it. Thanks to you and your tens of thousands of peers fellow victims PublishAmerica has grown into the world's biggest and fastest growing no-(upfront) cost, low-barrier no editing, no distribution traditional publishing house print mill. At zero expense to the author (until we pressure you into buying overpriced copies of your own book), we are releasing a new book every sixteen minutes, more than ever before in our ten years! (Which is completely insane, because we don't exactly "release" it. We just put it up on our website and leave you swinging in the wind with no distribution and under the impression that you're a professional writer and that Oprah will be phoning you up in the next day or so. Gosh, that just gets funnier every time we think about it here in Frederick!)

Every week more than 150 new authors victims are joining your ranks, close to eight thousand per year. (So it's pretty damned miraculous that our minimum wage college students, all 17 of them, can even keep up with running that volume of work through the spell check. Oh, wait, they don't.) Every month more than 250 PublishAmerica authors sheep looking to get shorn to the bone ask us to also publish their next book, two thousand second-book authors sheep covering their ears and going la-la-la against the common sense warnings just in the first seven months of this year alone. These are stunning numbers in for our industry back account. For one reason only: because you have made this publishing house the Stooges rich and got bupkis in return. We built it, but you made paid for it and the Hellocopter. Thank you for having written such a wide variety of quality works of fiction and non-fiction. Many sell like hot cakes! sit dead on the website with not a single sale unless you gut your life savings to buy copies, but thankfully we don't have to pay a royalty on any of those! Hardcover orders keep going through the roof along with our profits from them because you keep buying these overpriced puppies. This year, more than two thousand bookstores (who didn't get the memo that corporate doesn't want them stocking PA titles) are hosting events for PublishAmerica authors who begged for a signing, offered to supply their own books, and will never see that money recovered in sales. (contact us at BookSignings@publishamerica (http://webmail.sc.rr.com/do/mail/message/mailto?to=BookSignings%40publishamerica.com) if you want us to schedule an event for totally ignore you!). A million books have been sold to bookstores.

(Hello, Willie? It's Larry, that last line is a gross exaggeration if not outright lie. What if someone ASKS to see the figures and finds out we sold those to the writers, not bookstores? I mean, anyone who looks it up will find the big chains hate us. Ignore it? Yeah, okay. But if the IRS shows up you're on your own.

What about the averages? Oh, YOU know: 1 million books divided by 40,000 writers means an average of only 25 sales each, even though most never sell even one. Uh-huh, yeah. I guess if they fall for the other stuff they'll believe that too. Man, I love this business. I tell you, not having a conscience makes this SO much easier! What are you doing for lunch?)

[Willowmound]

Dear Author,

Due to popular demand, prolongued through Friday!

"Prolongued"?

[Afinerosesheis]

"Prolongued"?I see things haven't changed all that much around here. I no longer get the PABS e-mails (YAY) so I just don't think about them much anymore. **SNORT** @ Prolongued. =PI am 85 days tobacco free today (another YAY)so I have been spending a lot of time on the smoking cessation boards. But I did want to stop and say hey!

[LexiCan]

You're the funniest, Gill

[scully931]

Wow, all that talk about how many THOUSANDS of authors there are and how many HUNDREDS keep coming... I don't think I'd feel very special! :Shrug:

[Eirin]

Prolounged.

If you think of a pro-lounge as a brothel, it makes sense. PA authors have, indeed, been prolounged. Or, in the vernacular: f*cked over by pros.

[Gillhoughly]

The difference between PA and a brothel is obvious.

At a brothel a customer ALWAYS gets value for the money spent.

[JimmyD1318]

The difference between PA and a brothel is obvious.

At a brothel a customer ALWAYS gets value for the money spent.


:D Thanks...I needed that good laugh.

[James D. Macdonald]

Wow. One book every sixteen minutes? Think how much time they have to spend on your book!

[tlblack]

Wow. One book every sixteen minutes? Think how much time they have to spend on your book!

Longer than it takes to print a royalty check for $0.00 but less time than it would take to hire a new minimum wage employee?

[ResearchGuy]

"Prolongued"?
Reminds me of the PA book titled Amoung the Ravening Sharks. I believe it was a memoir set in the financial industry (by a stock, bond, or commodities trader, maybe). Sounded like it might be interesting, but the spelling error in the title and right on the cover was off-putting. That book was featured in a PA promotional brochure in 2005, one of the books pictured.

--Ken

[Don Davidson]

Gill, I love your B.S. Meter and your rewrite of PA's bovine feces. Great stuff. Has anyone actually tried that Book Signing email address to see what happens? Because PA once sent me an email saying that they don't set up book signings (or anything else, for that matter). It's undoubtedly another effort to look legit without really being legit, but I'm curious what happens when you actually call their bluff.

[PaulH]

I had a book published by PA in 2005 which can be purchased on line anywhere. I am going to allow them to publish another one.
Why? Because it's virtualy impossible in the UK to get an agent or publisher without having been a soap star, in prison or a celebrity. I already work for a national publisher on a series of non-fiction books.

For all of you unsigned wingers who consistently abuse PA stop moaning, go and see if you can get a main line publisher/agent or pay about 7K to get your book published by a vanity publisher with the same or less facilities.

I have been freelance for 7 years and have had success in magazine, newspapers and non-fiction. So sit at your sad computers and moan and groan about an organisation that gives unsigned authors the means to see their books in print without forking out a fortune to some vanity outfit. Rant over but about time someone said it!!!

[Queen of Swords]

Hi PaulH, and welcome to the board.

Because it's virtualy impossible in the UK to get an agent or publisher without having been a soap star, in prison or a celebrity.

I don't know how the publishing industry operates in the UK, but I suspect it's not too different from the way things operate in the US. Also, you could send queries to agencies or editors in the US.

For all of you unsigned wingers

I wouldn't be too quick to assume that people who criticize PA are unpublished. Many of us are - some with multiple titles by major publishers.

who consistently abuse PA stop moaning, go and see if you can get a main line publisher/agent or pay about 7K to get your book published by a vanity publisher with the same or less facilities.

Just curious - if someone has been accepted by a mainstream (not main line - that's what one does with drugs) publisher, is it then OK for them to criticize PA in your judgment?

I have been freelance for 7 years and have had success in magazine, newspapers and non-fiction. So sit at your sad computers

I just checked with my Dell, which says it has been quite happy regarding the purposes for which it is used ever since I stopped playing Civilization III.

It would prefer more RAM but hey, we can't have everything.

and moan and groan about an organisation that gives unsigned authors the means to see their books in print without forking out a fortune to some vanity outfit. Rant over but about time someone said it!!!

Firstly, PA is a vanity outfit/author mill.

Secondly, if writers just want printed, bound copies of their books, there are better options than PA. For instance, they could try Lulu, CreateSpace and so on.

Thirdly, how exactly does PA give writers the means to see their books in print? Once the books are printed, the writers won't see them unless they (or someone else) pay for the books. And since both books and shipping are overpriced, I hope you see how PA profits.

Finally, it's too bad that you missed all the humor, support and good information in these threads. I'm sure that if you had read them, you would not have incorrectly characterized what we do here as "moan[ing] and groan[ing]". I'm also sure that the advice given here would have helped you find a better printer/publisher for your second book.

Best of luck.

[Don Davidson]

I had a book published by PA in 2005 which can be purchased on line anywhere. I am going to allow them to publish another one.
Why? Because it's virtualy impossible in the UK to get an agent or publisher without having been a soap star, in prison or a celebrity. I already work for a national publisher on a series of non-fiction books.

For all of you unsigned wingers who consistently abuse PA stop moaning, go and see if you can get a main line publisher/agent or pay about 7K to get your book published by a vanity publisher with the same or less facilities.

I have been freelance for 7 years and have had success in magazine, newspapers and non-fiction. So sit at your sad computers and moan and groan about an organisation that gives unsigned authors the means to see their books in print without forking out a fortune to some vanity outfit. Rant over but about time someone said it!!!

Welcome. I hope you stay awhile, because you will learn a lot.

If you want to publish another book with PA, I say more power to you. At least you are going in with both eyes wide open. I did not. When I signed the contract with PA, I thought PA was a legit publisher which would market my book to people I don't know--because PA's web site and contract are designed to give that impression. Instead, I learned (too late) that PA does no marketing or promotion at all (except sending letters to your friends and family), leaving that all up to the author; that they price their books so high that no one with any sense would buy them; and that they won't let you out of the 7-year contract once you figure out you've been scammed.

Why do I rant about PA? Because they are not honest and up-front about what they do. And because they do not treat their customers (i.e., their authors) in a fair and responsible manner. So if you want to go with PA a second time, that is your right and I hope you are very happy with them. But in my humble opinion, they are still crooks and scam artists.

[JulieB]

Welcome to AW, PaulH. If I couldn't get a trade publisher (and that includes any number of good small presses) to publish my work, I'd self-publish.

Why? I'd have complete control over the look of the manuscript, the retail price, distribution, everything. It's more work, but I'll get to keep more of the money in the end.

[merrihiatt]

Don, I contacted the Book Signing "department" through the e-mail address four or five times (if my memory serves me correctly). I never received a response. Other authors may have a lot better luck because I'm pretty sure I'm on some list somewhere at PA since I'm unhappy with their services and speak out about it.

:welcome: Welcome, PaulH! I wish you good luck with your books. If having your books printed by PA is working for you, I say more power to you!! Many other authors have not been so fortunate.

[Cyia]

Welcome, PaulH.

You may be new here, but I'm sure you've already noticed one HUGE difference between this forum and the PAMB. Not only will people here answer "uncomfortable" questions without fear of banishment, but their answers don't disappear just because they're critical. The only thing that gets posts pulled here is if the poster is blatantly attacking someone else.

And unknowns get published all the time (for 7K, and much more in some cases.) If the product will sell, publishers don't care who wrote it.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . Rant over but about time someone said it!!!
Dunno how to tell you this, but we have heard that sort of thing before. And for whatever it is worth, I personally know a couple of PA authors who are pleased with the deal. One recently had a signing in another state, apparently being well received in the process, as her book has a strong local connection there. Another has four PA books (none of which of stood a chance of commercial publication). If it works for you, then good on you.

I'm just happy to have diverted from PA (just in the nick of time, and thanks in part to information found here at AW's forums) a book that went on to small-press publication, then to local awards and a major international literary award, and then a new editon from a much larger independent publisher in NY, followed by national speaking engagements.

--Ken

[JimmyD1318]

I hope Paul will stay. I have plenty of POPCORN to go around. Anybody want some...? :popcorn:

[Terie]

Why? Because it's virtualy impossible in the UK to get an agent or publisher without having been a soap star, in prison or a celebrity. I already work for a national publisher on a series of non-fiction books.

I have a friend (who is neither a soap star, in (or ever was in) prison, nor a celebrity) who got an agent who then sold her memoir to John Murray for an advance over £50,000. Her memoir got so much attention when it came out that she turned into a mini-celebrity and now is in demand to speak at conferences around the world.

I have another friend (also neither a soap star, in (or ever was in) prison, nor a celebrity) who sold his first children's series to Random House UK for a big enough advance to quit his job, then sold his second one to them, too. He's been writing full-time for the past few years from the royalty checks of these books, which have been sold not only to the UK, but also to nearly 20 other countries.

These things obviously aren't impossible at all. My friends wrote really REALLY good books, and then put in the effort to make them shine.

Oh, and me? I live in the UK (and also am none of the things you mentioned), and my first book was picked up off the slush pile of a mid-size US publisher, who subsequently bought the rest of the series, which brought me to the attention of one of the biggest agents in SF/F, who then signed me. I'm just finishing the first project with him now.

Nope, not impossible at all.

[Eirin]

I had a book published by PA in 2005 which can be purchased on line anywhere.

How many books (not counting the ones you bought yourself) have you sold?

[Momento Mori]

PaulH:
Why? Because it's virtualy impossible in the UK to get an agent or publisher without having been a soap star, in prison or a celebrity.

I know it feels that way sometimes, but I'm represented by Rogers, Coleridge & White and I'm neither a soap star, a jail bird or a celebrity.

PaulH:
For all of you unsigned wingers who consistently abuse PA stop moaning, go and see if you can get a main line publisher/agent or pay about 7K to get your book published by a vanity publisher with the same or less facilities.

Although you don't pay anything up front to go with PA, in practice you do end up having to pay them because if you want to put your books in stores, you'll have to buy them yourselves and supply them onto the book store in question (assuming that you can find any that will take it on that basis).

Because the cover price of PA books is high, you will have to get the book store to sell it at a higher price, which makes your book look uncompetitive (why pay $20 for a book if there are plenty of others available for $10) and you won't earn royalties on the books that you've bought from PA.

Then there's the additional costs you'll incur if you want to market your book. That money might not go into PA's pocket but it sure as hell is coming out of yours.

Some people are happy with PA because they want nothing more than to say that they have a book in print. That's fine if they know that's about all they're getting. Unfortunately, many PA authors seem to think that they will make money out of their work and all too many end up considerably out of pocket.

With your own book, would you mind sharing how much you've made from sales since its publication in 2005?

MM

[Eirin]

So if you want to go with PA a second time, that is your right and I hope you are very happy with them. But in my humble opinion, they are still crooks and scam artists.

They are, indeed, croocks and scammers. Which is why I have to question the integrity of anyone who, knowing the score, still chooses PA. Why would anybody knowingly choose to do business with a company that's lied to and cheated so many fellow writers?
This baffles me.


I'm just happy to have diverted from PA (just in the nick of time, and thanks in part to information found here at AW's forums) a book that went on to small-press publication, then to local awards and a major international literary award, and then a new editon from a much larger independent publisher in NY, followed by national speaking engagements.


Congratulations to your friend. To think that his/her book might have been gathering dust in PAs tomb for seven years, with first print right gone forever...
The author must feel like he or she just had one of those falling-from-a-great-height dreams, where you wake up a split second before it's splat city :D

[Susan Gable]

I thought PA had stopped publishing authors outside of the US?

Susan G.

[CaoPaux]

I thought so, too; in the UK, specifically due to the trademark infringement suit by Britannica. I foresee a "we won't publish your second book because your first didn't sell enough" letter.

[Queen of Swords]

I'm imagining the shipping charges to Britain. A single trade paperback to Canada was $8.00 for s&h.

[kullervo]

PaulH,

Welcome and we've all heard it before. "Publishing is closed to all but published authors and celebrities." Well, you've heard a few refutations right here and I'm another one. Sent my book to a publisher on a whim, and eighteen months later I was on book tour with my hardback novel.

Look into the background of some of your favorite authors. Where were they when they sold their first novels? Were they famous already? I doubt it. Did they self-publish until they were successful enough for someone to take notice? Probably not. They were hopeful writers with terrific manuscripts.

Agents and editors are searching query letters, submissions, and slush piles every day, looking for that next terrific manuscript. Face reality and write it. I had to write a stack of bad novels before I wrote one that was good enough. Don't disrupt your learning curve by pretending to be published with an author mill like Publish America. You've sacrificed your book's future in exchange for cheap printing and an ISBN number.

Reject fantasy. Embrace reality. When your work is ready, the doors will open wide.

[CoffinHunter19]

Greetings all! Normally I infect the horror threads and this is the first time I've ventured from them, however, I am in the middle of the ole' PA net and I needed a few understanding ears....While trying to break from my contract I got the basic "no because all the facts you listed have been discredited"....come on! Anyway, they are now asking for the Author Questionnair and I'm lost...if this has been covered elsewhere I apologize but I'm really looking for a prompt reply...any tips? It doesn't seem possible to break from this contract. On a side note, I now think the book was crap to begin with but getting accepted and being just plain impatient had a brilliant doping effect..I dunno, but any help would be great..thanks guys.

[Christine N.]

Paul H,
Sorry to disabuse you of your notions. First of all, I'll mention the 800 lb gorilla in the room - a nice young Scottish woman named Jo who was an absolute nobody, who was literally living on welfare and writing in a coffee shop in order to be someplace warm with her infant daughter. She managed to get an agent and signed by Bloomsbury, both in the UK. You might know her better by her initials - J.K. She was indeed an absolute nobody before Harry Potter, living on the fringe of society.

It's not impossible. (Where's Aruna when you need her! She's been published in the UK, I believe?) You need to have what the agents and publishers want. Sad to say, most writers don't have it. Not making judgments, simply stating a fact. Most submissions are rejected. Writing non-fiction is not the same as writing fiction. And what's stopping you from trying US agents? Many rep overseas clients, and sell books written by foreign writers to big US houses. The internet has broadened the publishing world, making it simple to contact someone half a world away. Don't limit yourself because of geography.

If you'd take some time and click on the links to some of the people here, you'll find a wide variety of experience - from the biggest publishers to small presses to yet unpublished. As Ken mentioned before, we've heard this "you're all unpublished wannabes complaining because PA rejected you" line before.

We're not. Some are previous PA authors, some are not. Personally I've found many publishers willing to publish my work, and never paid a dime (literally, not in the PA sense) for it. It hasn't always been easy - those publishers have standards, unlike PA who will print your grocery list if you promise to buy a few copies. I've had my share of publishing setbacks and rejections.

Anyway, hope you'll stick around and realize that your entire post was your own frustration and not one whit of reality.

[DaveKuzminski]

... Anyway, they are now asking for the Author Questionnair and I'm lost...if this has been covered elsewhere I apologize but I'm really looking for a prompt reply...any tips?

Be creative.

[Christine N.]

Yes, because we all know you're on a first name basis with Barak Obama. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm lost...if this has been covered elsewhere I apologize but I'm really looking for a prompt reply...any tips?

Yes. Add PA's address to your email kill file. You'll never see another letter from them. Don't respond to them or write to them, ever. Ignore the book. Don't do anything with it. Don't waste your time with the author questionaire, with the list of family and friends, with correcting the proofs. No one will ever see it or ever hear of your book. It's exactly as if it had stayed in the bottom of your desk drawer. It's crap, you said? Leave it lying there.

Write another, better, book.

[circlexranch]

Hi Paul! Welcome to AW.

I'm curious though, why you would pay PA from 50% - 92% of the inflated cover price of your book just to have it in print?

There are plenty of self-publish-for-free options with cover prices less than half of PA's. I am looking at a niche market project where the beautifully bound and rendered books will cost me $2.15 each with no minimum and no gouging on shipping. No upfront costs at all . . . .

So, why PA?

[Don Davidson]

While trying to break from my contract I got the basic "no because all the facts you listed have been discredited"....come on! Anyway, they are now asking for the Author Questionnair and I'm lost...if this has been covered elsewhere I apologize but I'm really looking for a prompt reply...any tips? It doesn't seem possible to break from this contract.

CoffinHunter, take James McD's advice and cut your losses. If you don't, PA will harrass you with frequent offers to buy your own book, while doing absolutely nothing to market and promote your book to anyone else (except your family and friends, of course). The best thing I did was demand that PA stop hassling me to buy my book--although it took 3 tries before they finally stopped. And from what I've read, those who have tried to self-promote their PA books almost always end up frustrated, angry, and poorer for the effort.

As for the contract, not too many have been successful at getting PA to terminate their contract. Those who have succeeded seem to have one quality in common--persistence. They just keep asking until PA finally caves. But if your book is crap, why do you even care? Just move on.

[James D. Macdonald]

Just one note: Before you add 'em to the kill file, send a letter right now telling them that you choose not to renew your contract in seven years. Then ... it's over. Forget they exist.

[Swordswoman]

Hello, CoffinHunter,

Not much to add to what the experts have said but this:

In your final e-mail, do as our own Don Davidson did, and tell them quite clearly you will not be buying any copies of your own books, nor will you press friends or family to do so. They will make no money out of you. If they haven't already printed your book (and they won't have) they may realize it's better for them just to cut their losses. They may hang on to your rights anyway out of spite, but you'll have hung on to something else, and that's integrity.

Which is the other thing that needs saying. It's a little difficult being sincere to someone with a name like CoffinHunter, but I have to say I have huge respect for what you've written here. Yes, we've every single one of us written 'crap' at some time or another, but not every one of us is willing to say so. The fact you know you can do better, that you're not ashamed to come out and tell the truth, that you're not going to drink the PA Kool-Aid and tell everyone that hey, you're a published author - all these things are the mark of a pro.

As Uncle Jim says, forget that one, and write a better book. With an attitude like yours I have no doubt you can do it - and in case you don't know it, every single person at AW is going to be rooting for you to succeed. I'd say every single one of the people who watch these threads, but since one of them is Miranda 'Hey, I got attacked for being a lesbian, er, no I didn't, I'm a liar' Prather I think that may be stretching charity too far.

But you've already decided you don't need the lying pretend-support of those whose moral sense never quite evolved as far as the amoeba's. I doubt you'll even need ours. But you've got it, Mr/Ms Writer with the impossible name of CoffinHunter. You've got it all the way.

Go, you.

Louise

[ResearchGuy]

...

As for the contract, not too many have been successful at getting PA to terminate their contract. Those who have succeeded seem to have one quality in common--persistence. ....
And some have paid cash ($300 seems to do it). But if the book has no future, there is no point in that, or in wasting any more time. Jim McDonald is right.

--Ken

[ChristineR]

I'm not sure where people get the idea that only celebrities can get published. Look at your own bookshelves. How many of the authors are celebrities (or were, before their books made them famous)? And every single one of them was, at one time, a "first time author." If agents and publishers didn't take on new, unpublished authors, there would eventually be no agented or published authors anywhere.

And letting PublishAmerica print your books won't help much, because they'll print anyone, and even their bestselling books sell almost no copies.

[ResearchGuy]

I'm not sure where people get the idea that only celebrities can get published. . . . .
One of my local mystery-writing friends, Cindy Sample, a member of Sisters in Crime and a contributor to Capital Crimes: 15 Tales by Sacramento Area Authors (a fund-raising anthology by members of the local Sisters in Crime chapter), has just announced that her book Dying for a Date, first in a planned cozy mystery series, is scheduled for commercial publication second quarter of next year (very small press, but looks legitimate). The book had been placed with an agent unsuccessfully for a year (some nice rejections, though), but apparently a different agent, or maybe direct contact with the publisher, paid off. Cindy is no celebrity (yet). Cindy did her homework, planning out a series and preparing a martketing plan.

--Ken

[CoffinHunter19]

Thank you guys...great advice and a boost in morale. I will be following what you've given me and with great relief. And Swordswoman; CoffinHunter is from Stephen Kings Dark Tower series...and I'm a guy..and another thing, I may just frame your post and hang in front of my computer (and I'm not modest in any way) because that was great! Since you said so many nice things I'll go ahead and give you the ticket to Wonka's Factory...just stay out of the chocolate lake, please. Thanks again friends and get to work!

[quixote100104]

Greetings :-),

I was pleased to note that the one PA author I personally know recently had a bit of an epiphany:

http://www.bhl4ever.com/Cevents.html

It is of course laced with clauses to cover the fact that, while it was not perhaps the best decision, it really wasn't the wrong one either. That's par for the course with this individual (I've known him for decades). But the important part is that he has come around to the notion that PA isn't his best option.

Sadly, he doesn't talk to me anymore, mostly due to my nasty habit of pointing out inconvinient facts like PA's shortcomings ;-).

[Queen of Swords]

Thanks for sharing this!

...I have offered it to a new publisher who isn't quite so grasping with royalties. While I understand Publish America's point of view, I maintain that they would make more money by backing their authors. That's all I'm saying and that's all I've ever said. I do not feel taken advantage of. They delivered exactly what they said they would, no more and no less.

I wonder how it would be possible to deliver less than what PA currently does. Still, this is the "PA did what the contract said it would do" claim, which quite a few veteran ex-loyalists fall back on eventually. And it works, unless someone points out that when you promise peanuts, they're easy to deliver.

I wanted the book published and after 126 rejections (many of which praised the work, but...) during the rapidly approaching economic crisis i accepted less than a mutually beneficial offer. There it rests! The book is out there in the world and I will continue to try and advance it, however it is clearly time to move on.

Good for the author. Even if he uses a self-publishing service, he's better off.

[kullervo]

Two thoughts:

1. How can he describe PublishAmerica as being "grasping" with royalties and then state that they delivered on everything they promised?

2. If I had a book that had been rejected 126 times, I would burn it. Lest I live every day in horror that another human being might see it.

Seriously, this is what amazes me about self-publishing. If you're writing mainstream fiction meant for a wide audience, and you can't get it commercially published after a long search, why would you still assume it deserved readers' time and money? Move on. Recognize where you are in the learning curve. Try to write a better book.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . 2. If I had a book that had been rejected 126 times, I would burn it. Lest I live every day in horror that another human being might see it.
. . . .
Then you would have burned the first Chicken Soup for the Soul book.

--Ken

[Queen of Swords]

How can he describe PublishAmerica as being "grasping" with royalties and then state that they delivered on everything they promised?

Maybe they promised him they would be grasping with royalties.

[James D. Macdonald]

Then you would have burned the first Chicken Soup for the Soul book.

--Ken


This might not have been a bad idea....

And if what you have is general fiction, and you've been submitting it to appropriate markets, then it's likely a non-starter.

(Before anyone brings up John Kennedy Toole and A Confederacy of Dunces, consider that Toole might not have been making good submission decisions any more than he made good life-decisions in other areas.)

[ResearchGuy]

This might not have been a bad idea....
Cynic. It was the start of a billion-dollar publishing enterprise, so they must have done something right.

As for Confederacy -- it was a work of genius that was ahead of its time. No need to take ad hominem shots at its author. You are better than that.

--Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

Not an ad hominem shot at the author, but a possible explanation for why he didn't manage to sell it (though his mother did). It was kindly meant.

As to Chicken Soup, I think it was Mencken who said that no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the America public.

The Chicken Soup contracts are unfavorable to the authors of the individual pieces. And I'm still waiting for Chicken Soup for the Vegetarian's Soul.

[Christine N.]

Chicken soup is not fiction. I can't remember where we put it in the library (I think probably in the general interest 100's), but it has a Dewey Decimal number. It's niche NF that needed to find the right niche.

Fiction is a different animal altogether, and if you've got a piece of fiction that's been rejected 126 times, either you're submitting it to the wrong people (meaning it's SF and you're submitting to chick-lit agents) or you're just doing it wrong as far as writing. I can think of many authors who were rejected in the double digits, but when you hit 100, it might be time to start thinking about what else it might be.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . he didn't manage to sell it (though his mother did). . . .
She got it into the (initially skeptical) hands of southern literary lion Walker Percy. His imprimatur got it published by a university press (LSU Press). You know that, but it might be of interest to others reading these musings.

Anyway, point is, persistence is essential (except for a lucky few, I suppose). No telling how many fine books have vanished without a trace or have have sunk into vanity presses because the authors lost heart. Of course, far more bad books have vanished likewise.

--Ken

[Terie]

Fiction is a different animal altogether, and if you've got a piece of fiction that's been rejected 126 times, either you're submitting it to the wrong people (meaning it's SF and you're submitting to chick-lit agents) or you're just doing it wrong as far as writing. I can think of many authors who were rejected in the double digits, but when you hit 100, it might be time to start thinking about what else it might be.

I can't help but wonder (since it sounds as if he had some good rejections) if it's at least partly a matter of an unknown writer trying to sell a book of short stories at a time when it's nearly impossible for an unknown writer to sell a book of short stories. Unfortunate for short story writers, but this just doesn't seem to be a great time for that artform.

[ResearchGuy]

Chicken soup is not fiction.. . . .
Never said it was. In fact, the editors/publishers are fanatical about proof that the stories are genuine. Anyway, the series runs to hundreds of titles now, on every imaginable topic that has a large enough potential audience (golfers, mothers, writers, and on and on and on). It was that first one that opened the door and that made its publisher a fortune.

--Ken

[ResearchGuy]

. . . 2. If I had a book that had been rejected 126 times, I would burn it.. . . .
Would have been a close call on Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, rejected over 120 times before William Morrow picked it up for a $3,000 advance. It went on to be a monster best seller, still in print after thirty-five years.

Anyone who has read it might understand why it was hard to place with a publisher.

--Ken

[quixote100104]

Would have been a close call on Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, rejected over 120 times before William Morrow picked it up for a $3,000 advance. It went on to be a monster best seller, still in print after thirty-five years.

Anyone who has read it might understand why it was hard to place with a publisher.


This might also have been a factor in Chris' book. He's a fine storyteller, though I personally think he could use some skill-polishing (though that's coming from someone who probably could too...my assesment is that of a devoted, lifelong reader, not a skilled professional writer/editor). I've been an avid consumer of his private work since the mid-80s. He used to make wonderful audio presentations of stories, poetry and music and send them out on cassette (later CD) to his circle of friends.

The book itself is presented as a novel, but an episodic one, and it had the rather awkward (IMHO) feature of a prologue and and epilogue for each chapter. It's also really long and jumps back and forth between various past periods and the period just before and during it's writing. He wrote it less with the idea of crafting a good story and more as a catharsis and a way of getting back at various people (including me) for real and imagined slights. Also, he does have a lot of ego around his writing and I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that a lot of those "buts..." were in the line of "but we need to make a few changes to make it saleable". PA's lack of editorial attention may have been a big plus for him.

It's also very possible that it was being submitted to the wrong kinds of publishers/agents, because to my knowlege neither he nor his wife knows anything about the professional publishing buisness (his selection of PA pretty much proves that, it seems) and they both think they are a lot smarter and more savvy than they are. It's caused them problems before, in other areas.

This is all speculation, of course. We were on the outs long before he started writing "Brooklyn Heat Lasts Forever" and I had no knowlege of or involvement in the process (other than awareness that it was being written, via secondary sources). We had a brief period of semi-reconciled communication late last year, when I tried to leverage my growing interest in social media to help him network a bit and sell some books. Unfortunately that fell apart in January when I got accused by his wife of prying into thier private finances because I asked how many books he'd sold for a royalty check he described as being "in the low three digits" and where they had sold.

Still, even lacking the personal relationship, I still think he has great potential as an author. He just needs good advice from someone he will listen too (or one of those incredible strokes of luck that seem to occasionally hit people in the buisness ;-) ). That's one reason I mention him here. My own attempts to advise him have always been tainted by our personal issues, but an interested third party might do better. Also, if he finally has the catharsis bug out of his system (or at least suppressed) and is doing stories for the story's sake, the quality may improve dramatically.

I'd be willing to provide a copy of the book to anyone willing to seriously review it and perhaps send him some advice. No, we won't feed PA any more money...I'll photocopy my own copy.

[Christine N.]

One or two exceptions does not a rule make. Ken, you know as well as I that most books written are absolute unreadable drivel. They DESERVE rejection. It IS fortunate that these books you cite did make it after all, but they are, in fact, exceptions. I'm reading a self-published one now that may well have been rejected multiple times before the author went the route he did. I don't know that for sure, but it's obvious that it would have been rejected. It's got a creative storyline, but other than that is very difficult to read with many outstanding flaws.

MOST books rejected in the triple digits need to go into a drawer. Fact of life.

[ResearchGuy]

One or two exceptions does not a rule make. . . . .
I did not say it did. Don't put words in my mouth.

My point was entirely that there ARE exceptions -- and some striking ones at that. We have no idea how many more potential exceptions disappeared without a trace.

--Ken

[PaulH]

Christine N. You are refering to JK Rowling who wrote her first MS of Harry Potter in tea shops in Edinburgh in long hand and then left the original on a bus and had to start again from scratch. Are you also aware that she received around 27 rejections for it. The 28th submission was on the top of a slush pile when a secretary took the top one for a read on her break, liked it and - the rest is history (Although I believe that she would have made no further submissions). I don't know about the states but here in the UK it is £8.000 for the services of a vanity publisher or become a celeb. You can buy my PA book anywhere in the world and it cost me nothing. Apart from the PA royalties which don't amount to much I have earned money from the book by placing it myself. It has been well received in the newspapers and I am still attempting to get other work published by more main stream publishers. I'm not daft, neither am I in the first flush of youth. I cannot afford to wait for the impossible albeit that I am still chasing it with childrens stories etc etc. This is my last blog as I am too busy, I just felt that there was far to much negativity and still do. Submissions to agents hundreds per week. Accepted authors 3 or 4 a year. Manuscripts read by publishers or agents -1%. That is real negativity only it is true!!!

[Queen of Swords]

I don't know about the states but here in the UK it is £8.000 for the services of a vanity publisher or become a celeb.

So, did Rowling become a celebrity in order to get an agent, or did she pay eight thousand pounds to a vanity publisher? I'd really like to know.

You can buy my PA book anywhere in the world and it cost me nothing.

Question is, who's likely to buy your book "anywhere in the world"?

Do people know your book exists? How will they become aware of it - of the title, of the subject matter? Will they be able to read some of it before purchasing it?

How is your book priced in comparison to other books in the market? I'm willing to bet it's overpriced. Is your book available in stores, or will people have to pay shipping? Are they likely to pay PA's inflated shipping and handling charges and wait, what, six weeks to receive the book?

Is your book edited? Is the cover art comparable to those put out by commercial publishers or is it a stock image? Who has reviewed your book?

See how many sales PA has cost you?

This is my last blog

What you just posted wasn't a blog. It was a post on a message board.

Given that the only way most PA authors can reach an audience outside of their pocket market of family, friends, etc. is to use the Internet, you might want to make yourself more familiar with this form of communication - for instance, adding a link to your book in your posts.

as I am too busy, I just felt that there was far to much negativity and still do. Submissions to agents hundreds per week. Accepted authors 3 or 4 a year. Manuscripts read by publishers or agents -1%. That is real negativity only it is true!!!

Number of athletes who compete in sports - thousands. Number who stand on top of the podium to get the Olympic gold medals - 1%. That is real negativity only it is true too!!!

Maybe they should all get gold medals. Then there won't be any more negativity. What do you say?

[Terie]

Submissions to agents hundreds per week. Accepted authors 3 or 4 a year. Manuscripts read by publishers or agents -1%. That is real negativity only it is true!!!

Number of athletes who compete in sports - thousands. Number who stand on top of the podium to get the Olympic gold medals - 1%. That is real negativity only it is true too!!!

Number of people in my 25-member writing group submitting to top mainstream publishers and agents? 10. Number of members to have got contracts in the past 4 years? 3.

[DaveKuzminski]

Beverage alert....

Coming soon to a backlot near you, AtheleteAmerica! Yes, you can become a world class athelete just by entering. Not only that, but you'll receive traditional training from our expert trainers in Frederick, Maryland who will coach you in the comfort of your home via the Internet. No one else dares to offer what we can give you--World Class Competition without having to leave your own neighborhood.

And if you win, and why shouldn't you, you can purchase your trophy from our world class trophy mart.

And remember, we don't want your money. We just want you to be a winner.

[ResearchGuy]

Christine N. You are refering to JK Rowling who . . . received around 27 rejections for it. The 28th submission was on the top of a slush pile when a secretary took the top one for a read on her break, liked it and - the rest is history. . .
A different version is here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._K._Rowling#Harry_Potter_books).

--Ken

[DeadlyAccurate]

You can buy my PA book anywhere in the world and it cost me nothing.

This is like saying we could call you up anywhere in the world because your name is in the phone book. Technically true, but how would we even know where to start looking? An ISBN is like a phone number for a book. That's the only reason it shows up in the online stores.

But lets say you manage to get your name out there and make a real dent in marketing your book yourself, without the backing of your publisher (who would normally market your book to bookstore buyers). Now you've got the problem of pricing. Your books are priced higher than the reading public will bear for a new author. PA prices their books for their customers--you--not for your potential readers.

It's true that agents receive hundreds of submissions and take on very few clients. What isn't true is that all of those submissions are even publishable. You have to write well and it has to be something an agent thinks they can sell.

(My agent recently took on a 23-year-old from the slush pile. He's neither famous nor was in prison, to my knowledge. But his query was fantastic (I read it on QueryShark). He simply wrote well).

[DaveKuzminski]

You can buy my PA book anywhere in the world and it cost me nothing. Apart from the PA royalties which don't amount to much I have earned money from the book by placing it myself.

Just remember that Willem Meiners, a PA owner, testified under oath in arbitration with Phil Dolan that PublishAmerica's target market is its writers. In other words, you are PA's customer. PA doesn't care about whether PA sells to any readers or if you do so long as you self-purchase your own books from PA. That way PA doesn't have to do anything like the real publishers do. After all, PA isn't in competition with real publishers for readers. IF PA was in real competition, do you think they just might actually try to provide real editing, real discounts, real distribution, and real returns?

[jmelton]

so what happens when you get a few copies for yourself and then when PA is on your ass to buy more you tell them to fuck off, you've bought all you'll ever buy?

[Christine N.]

Christine N. You are refering to JK Rowling who wrote her first MS of Harry Potter in tea shops in Edinburgh in long hand and then left the original on a bus and had to start again from scratch. Are you also aware that she received around 27 rejections for it. The 28th submission was on the top of a slush pile when a secretary took the top one for a read on her break, liked it and - the rest is history (Although I believe that she would have made no further submissions).

Well of course I am, silly. And 28 rejections is NOTHING.Do YOU know that she hand typed each submission, because she didn't have a computer and couldn't afford copying? Just a tidbit, but that's dedication.

I don't know about the states but here in the UK it is £8.000 for the services of a vanity publisher or become a celeb. You can buy my PA book anywhere in the world and it cost me nothing.

As you can any of my books, but I'll bet mine are reasonably priced and will get there WAY before yours. If PA bothers sending it at all; they've had trouble with that lately. I am neither a celeb or used a vanity publisher. Neither did JK Rowling. I also get a much better royalty rate than you do, but that's neither here nor there. My publisher does a nice job getting my books out there. Oh, and my books are actually edited, meticulously, by at least two individuals. My covers are designed one-of-a-kind, and actually reflect the story. Just as an aside. I paid absolutely nothing - in fact I got a small advance for two of my books, both of which I have since earned out. So now I get monthly checks, for more than $1.


Apart from the PA royalties which don't amount to much I have earned money from the book by placing it myself.

I don't place my books. JK Rowling doesn't place HER books. She was neither a celeb nor vanity published and now has more money than the queen. Therefore, your previous assertion that it is impossible to be published without being a celeb or ex-convict has been proven very much false. There are a hundred authors on this site, none of whom are celebs (or were before publication), who managed to become published. Some in the UK.

I cannot afford to wait for the impossible albeit that I am still chasing it with childrens stories etc etc. This is my last blog as I am too busy, I just felt that there was far to much negativity and still do. Submissions to agents hundreds per week. Accepted authors 3 or 4 a year. Manuscripts read by publishers or agents -1%. That is real negativity only it is true!!!

I never said you were daft. You cannot afford to wait for 'the impossible', but I've just proven to you that it IS possible - IF YOU HAVE A GOOD BOOK. A well-written, interesting book will almost always find publication. Learn your craft, do the work. Once you have a publisher, all that legwork of "placing" the book is gone. You only need to promote, which you can do from home, and write the next book.

The whole "I don't have that kind of time" line is nothing but an excuse. You'd rather go for the easy score, that's your business. Don't come off with the "it's impossible to be published by a mainstream publisher!" business and expect us here, who have done it, to let it fly. It IS possible, if you want it and have what the publishers want. Most writers, sorry to say, do not. You may - but you won't know if you don't submit.

It's like the lottery - you can't win if you don't play.

[Queen of Swords]

so what happens when you get a few copies for yourself and then when PA is on your ass to buy more you tell them to fuck off, you've bought all you'll ever buy?

Depending on how "a few" is defined, PA may or may not break even on your book.

But statistically speaking, you'll fall into the small minority from whom PA will not make a profit. Most authors will not stop at buying only "a few" books - their family and friends all want copies, plus they want to see the books stocked in stores and have to place the copies on consignment. Those authors will more than compensate for the ones who don't buy copies, or who buy very few.

Welcome to the board, by the way!

[Queen of Swords]

The whole "I don't have that kind of time" line is nothing but an excuse.

Hands up anyone here who IS in the first flush of youth and has been published? Shady Lane doesn't count. ;)

[Christine N.]

Not me. The big 4-0 is stalking me.

[ChristineR]

If you really don't want to brave the slush pile (although statistics show your chances of selling a decent number of copies are far better in the slush than your chances with PublishAmerica) then there are other options (Lulu, CreateSpace) which also charge little or nothing upfront and will print your book. Unlike PA, these do not insult their authors, force you to use a 900 number, or censor people who are having problems from their message boards.

They also do not take a huge portion of your rights, print better physical quality books, charge less per copy than PA, give your control over formatting and cover design if you want it, etc., etc. If you are willing and able to pay a bit more upfront, there are even cheaper options, since "nothing" is on the extreme end of the price per copy/cost upfront trade off.

If you are buying your own books, you will recoup the upfront costs pretty quickly because the books are so much cheaper. If other people are buying your books, you will recoup the upfront costs from royalties. If no one is buying your books, then at least you will retain the rights should you ever want to sell the book to a commercial publisher.

More info: books published by PA--around 40,000. Best selling book known sold 5,200 copies, at least 2000 of which were sold to the author. If an agent got 40,000 queries a year that would be eight hundred a week. I've heard that it's more like 200 a week for the best known agents, but let's pretend 40,000 a year. She takes on four of those, and probably all four get sold to publishers, and all will sell more than 5,200 copies. Maybe not--maybe only three sell, and maybe one of those is a complete loser and sells only 5,199 copies. Your odds are still more than twice what they are with PA, and that's only one agent.

[jmelton]

Depending on how "a few" is defined, PA may or may not break even on your book.

But statistically speaking, you'll fall into the small minority from whom PA will not make a profit. Most authors will not stop at buying only "a few" books - their family and friends all want copies, plus they want to see the books stocked in stores and have to place the copies on consignment. Those authors will more than compensate for the ones who don't buy copies, or who buy very few.

Welcome to the board, by the way!

basically i just want a copy on my bookshelf so I can say i wrote a book. some of my friends that have read it want a copy too, but i could give a rat's ass if i make money or PA makes money since apparently they are a bunch of jackasses. Will they be pissed if i don't do things to try to get it into bookstores, and if i get one for myself and find a bunch of errors how will they react when i tell them i'm done promoting and ordering copies because their product is garbage?

[cdoctor13]

Don't feed the trolls.

[Queen of Swords]

basically i just want a copy on my bookshelf so I can say i wrote a book.

There are cheaper (and better) alternatives to PA.

some of my friends that have read it want a copy too

Hopefully they won't mind the books being overpriced, then.

but i could give a rat's ass if i make money or PA makes money since apparently they are a bunch of jackasses. Will they be pissed if i don't do things to try to get it into bookstores, and if i get one for myself and find a bunch of errors how will they react when i tell them i'm done promoting and ordering copies because their product is garbage?

PA has been known to send admonishing emails to authors who say they won't promote their books, since the contract places authors under an obligation to do so. On the other hand, as far as I know, sending you threatening emails is all they'll do in that regard.

I'm not sure why you'd want to risk "a bunch of errors" in your book, but that's your choice.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . Don't come off with the "it's impossible to be published by a mainstream publisher!" business and expect us here, who have done it, to let it fly. . . .
The Writer's Digest Press book How I Got Published is of considerable related interest.

--Ken

[Christine N.]

That's not to say that it's easy, by any stretch of the imagination. If you want easy, well, you got PA. They don't do easy either, especially if you start making demands like they fix the mistakes they put into your book or actually edit. (They've even spelled the title and/or author's name incorrectly before, for which they also gave said author a hard time about fixing.)

If you want easy, you're in the wrong business. I only said it wasn't impossible.

[James D. Macdonald]

basically i just want a copy on my bookshelf so I can say i wrote a book. some of my friends that have read it want a copy too...

Run off a few copies at Kinko's. Or create a book at Lulu, keep it private, and give your friends copies from that.

Either way would be cheaper than PA's best author discount.

[jmelton]

Run off a few copies at Kinko's. Or create a book at Lulu, keep it private, and give your friends copies from that.

Either way would be cheaper than PA's best author discount.

I wanted to go with PA because I wanted my book published without me spending a penny. I just signed the contract friday but now i feel like i made a huge mistake. anyway out of this for me? There's a lot of talk on here about them putting out a shotty product but in my contract it said it would be something we were both happy with, so if it's not and i let them know about it is that a breach of contract on their part?

[Cyia]

I wanted to go with PA because I wanted my book published without me spending a penny. I just signed the contract friday but now i feel like i made a huge mistake. anyway out of this for me? There's a lot of talk on here about them putting out a shotty product but in my contract it said it would be something we were both happy with, so if it's not and i let them know about it is that a breach of contract on their part?

PA isn't "published" in the professional sense of the word. They print the books they're sent and call it published. (NO legit organization, editor, agency, etc considers it a publishing credit). Any you WILL have to spend a lot of pennies if you want to see it in print instead of just in a text file sitting on a computer at PA headquarters.

Read the contract carefully, and then read the posts here from others who've tried to use said contract to get a fair deal. Everything PA promises is "at their discretion", which means they don't have to do a thing they don't want to. For the ones who have complained about errors, they're charged for corrections. For the ones who have complained about quality, they're usually told it's not PA's fault, but that of a 3rd party so PA isn't at fault - that's IF you can get an answer at all.

Read some of the (now deleted from the PAMB) quotes from PA authors shocked at the way their books look, or the time it takes to get their books, or the lack of customer service. Read the words of someone who wrote a military memoir, only to have PA put the wrong title on the book... and then read him grovel and accept the blame (like he didn't know which military operation he was a part of) Read the people who were banned for asking legitimate questions.

Everything PA does is apparently stacked in their favor, and unless you can get them to void the contract by telling them your economic status is such that it's now impossible to buy or promote the book, you're out of luck. (Try sending them a sickeningly sweet email explaining that you don't have the means you thought you would and at this time it wouldn't be profitable for PA or you - stress on PA - to publish the book.)

[jmelton]

PA isn't "published" in the professional sense of the word. They print the books they're sent and call it published. (NO legit organization, editor, agency, etc considers it a publishing credit). Any you WILL have to spend a lot of pennies if you want to see it in print instead of just in a text file sitting on a computer at PA headquarters.

Read the contract carefully, and then read the posts here from others who've tried to use said contract to get a fair deal. Everything PA promises is "at their discretion", which means they don't have to do a thing they don't want to. For the ones who have complained about errors, they're charged for corrections. For the ones who have complained about quality, they're usually told it's not PA's fault, but that of a 3rd party so PA isn't at fault - that's IF you can get an answer at all.

Read some of the (now deleted from the PAMB) quotes from PA authors shocked at the way their books look, or the time it takes to get their books, or the lack of customer service. Read the words of someone who wrote a military memoir, only to have PA put the wrong title on the book... and then read him grovel and accept the blame (like he didn't know which military operation he was a part of) Read the people who were banned for asking legitimate questions.

Everything PA does is apparently stacked in their favor, and unless you can get them to void the contract by telling them your economic status is such that it's now impossible to buy or promote the book, you're out of luck. (Try sending them a sickeningly sweet email explaining that you don't have the means you thought you would and at this time it wouldn't be profitable for PA or you - stress on PA - to publish the book.)

so could i purchase one or two for myself then say i'm done or would i get in trouble? if they said it's in the contract that I have to promote it can't I say it's in there that you have to too? that is if there are no signs they have. which from all the accounts i've read on here they'll do nothing. basically i'd like to get a few copies for myself then get the contract voided so i could pursue other options.

i wish i wouldn't have sent the manuscript in this morning or I could have voided the contract by taking too long.

[DeadlyAccurate]

so could i purchase one or two for myself then say i'm done or would i get in trouble?

Unless your contract specifies a certain number of copies you're required to purchase, no, there's not much they could do at that point.

if they said it's in the contract that I have to promote it can't I say it's in there that you have to too? They use the words "at their discretion" for a very good reason. That gives them an out to do anything they don't feel like doing. And they never seem to feel like doing any marketing or promotion on their authors' behalves.

basically i'd like to get a few copies for myself then get the contract voided so i could pursue other options.You will have used up first publishing rights, so your other options are few and far between, especially regarding legitimate commercial publishing options. Don't count on being able to cancel the contract. Sometimes they do it; sometimes they don't. But if you give them your money, they may hold onto the book in the hopes of getting even more cash out of you.

To be honest, your best option is to forget about this book and write a new, better one and try to place that with a commercial publisher. Many, many of us have books that never sold, and in that you're no different. They're the books we wrote to learn how to write novels.

[James D. Macdonald]

I wanted to go with PA because I wanted my book published without me spending a penny.

And so it has been! But if you want to see a copy you're going to have to spend a whole lot of pennies.



I just signed the contract friday but now i feel like i made a huge mistake. anyway out of this for me? There's a lot of talk on here about them putting out a shotty product but in my contract it said it would be something we were both happy with, so if it's not and i let them know about it is that a breach of contract on their part?

Good luck with that. Does the word 'happy' actually appear in the contract?

Rather, like I've advised others, tell them that you won't renew the contract in seven years' time, add their email address to your kill file, and forget they exist.

[jmelton]

[quote=James D. Macdonald;3996274]And so it has been! But if you want to see a copy you're going to have to spend a whole lot of pennies.


i should just have to spend what the book cost shouldn't i? there is nothing i'm supposed to have to pay for.

[Gillhoughly]

i should just have to spend what the book cost shouldn't i? there is nothing i'm supposed to have to pay for.

The book "costs" them about 3.00 to print. They will likely quadruple that price to sell you a copy.

Your "editor" (a minimum wages college kid) spent about 5 minutes running it through the spell checker--if they bothered.

The cover artist will spend another 10 minutes picking out a stock cover and slapping on your name and the title. Chances are good one or both may be spelled wrong. (It's happened.)

So your book costs them *maybe* a whopping 5 bucks to produce what with labor costs and the paper.

You won't get any authors' copies. They stopped doing that.

You'll have to buy a copy to hold in hand, and it will be a lot more than five bucks + added postage.

Every week expect to get emails urging you to buy more copies to "have on hand". The only marketing they ever do is aimed at you the writer, not bookstores or libraries.

I would suggest you try contacting them right away, tell them you've changed your mind, that the book needs massive revisions, that there's been a family disaster and you can't promote it, whatever, and ask to cancel your contract before they proceed any farther.

Keep in mind that they cruise this board and might connect your name here with your book.

You may have to repeat this a lot until they give in.

Keep it simple, don't mention you heard bad stuff about them. Sometimes they will withhold release out of pure spite. Just state that you need to have the contract canceled, there's no way you can market/promote the book, you don't want to buy any copies.

You might luck out and get released. They don't want to waste time on writers they view as "deadbeats."

Otherwise, you write that book off and do another one and never use them again.

As stated, you'll have a better, lower cost book by taking it to Kinkos or using Lulu.

[Queen of Swords]

basically i'd like to get a few copies for myself then get the contract voided so i could pursue other options.

Just curious - what other options would those be?

[CaoPaux]

i should just have to spend what the book cost shouldn't i? there is nothing i'm supposed to have to pay for.Are they registering your copyright for you? If not, that's $35 you'll have to pay, minimum.

[kullervo]

You've sold first publication rights to your novel for a dollar. That book is now dead. If you think that's bad, then that's bad.

[tlblack]

Depending on the number of pages in your book, the average PA price per book is $25 plus $3.99 or more per book for shipping. That price is for books of around 150-250 pages; more pages equals higher prices.

If you'll notice my avatar picture, (MY PA books) you'll notice pages falling out of one, it's cover curling outward and also blurry. That orange smudge you see across the front is supposedly a fall colored tree. This book was in that condition when it came out of the box, but PA wouldn't replace it as they had a no returns policy. It also isn't the only copy that had loose pages. PA's "editor's" added more errors than my original manuscript has as well as seeming to loose parts of the text. Any and all attempts by me to contact PA regarding the books shoddy condition were either ignored or denied.

[DaveKuzminski]

If you have a spare copy, send one to the Maryland Attorney General and explain how it arrived in that condition and how the publisher won't back the product.

[dvbone]

As someone who worked there, let me tell you what your book went through:

Minimum wage desk grunt (such as me) dumps your MS into an Adobe InDesign template. It will get a spelling and grammar check. To meet our daily quota, I and others in the Text Department usually just hit "change all" and "accept all changes". Maybe not even that. All that matters are that our daily quota is met.

Then onto cover design where it gets the same treatment. Just use a keyword search in the database (if you book has vampires in it, they search for something close). Add some fancy text, done. Takes ten to fifteen minutes top.

Your book doesn't matter. All that matters is getting it to press as fast as possible.

You want to hold your book? Go to Lulu.com. You'll get a better looking book with more control over the process and it will be cheaper. Much, much cheaper.

Everyone at PA realizes within their first day of work there that PublishAmerica is just a fast food printing joint, not a publisher. You put your heart and soul into your novel. PA puts nothing into it. Jump dump it into a PDF form and sent it to the press. Then it's onto the next one. And the next one, Hundreds per month.

[tlblack]

As someone who worked there, let me tell you what your book went through:

Minimum wage desk grunt (such as me) dumps your MS into an Adobe InDesign template. It will get a spelling and grammar check. To meet our daily quota, I and others in the Text Department usually just hit "change all" and "accept all changes". Maybe not even that. All that matters are that our daily quota is met.

Then onto cover design where it gets the same treatment. Just use a keyword search in the database (if you book has vampires in it, they search for something close). Add some fancy text, done. Takes ten to fifteen minutes top.

Your book doesn't matter. All that matters is getting it to press as fast as possible.

You want to hold your book? Go to Lulu.com. You'll get a better looking book with more control over the process and it will be cheaper. Much, much cheaper.

Everyone at PA realizes within their first day of work there that PublishAmerica is just a fast food printing joint, not a publisher. You put your heart and soul into your novel. PA puts nothing into it. Jump dump it into a PDF form and sent it to the press. Then it's onto the next one. And the next one, Hundreds per month.

And that says a lot about PubliSHAMerica's "traditional" publishing.

Oh and Dave: :D

[ResearchGuy]

As someone who worked there . . .
Thanks for the insider's view. Chilling.

--Ken

[CatSlave]

As someone who worked there, let me tell you what your book went through:

Minimum wage desk grunt (such as me) dumps your MS into an Adobe InDesign template. It will get a spelling and grammar check. To meet our daily quota, I and others in the Text Department usually just hit "change all" and "accept all changes". Maybe not even that. All that matters are that our daily quota is met.

Then onto cover design where it gets the same treatment. Just use a keyword search in the database (if you book has vampires in it, they search for something close). Add some fancy text, done. Takes ten to fifteen minutes top.

Your book doesn't matter. All that matters is getting it to press as fast as possible.

You want to hold your book? Go to Lulu.com. You'll get a better looking book with more control over the process and it will be cheaper. Much, much cheaper.

Everyone at PA realizes within their first day of work there that PublishAmerica is just a fast food printing joint, not a publisher. You put your heart and soul into your novel. PA puts nothing into it. Jump dump it into a PDF form and sent it to the press. Then it's onto the next one. And the next one, Hundreds per month.
Thank you for sharing.

Do you know who is wearing the Infocenter hat these days on the PAMB?

[Queen of Swords]

Thanks for that glimpse into what goes on there. I especially like the "fast food printing joint" comparison.

And welcome to the board!

[tlblack]

Yes, welcome dvbone and may I ask just how many manuscripts make up a daily quota? I'm sure others would like to know as well since PA seems to print them out 100 or so per week.

[merrihiatt]

Welcome, dvbone!:welcome:

Thanks for sharing your inside perspective of how PA works.

[kullervo]

Greetings and thank you, dvbone! You will save many writers' dreams by sharing your experience. I greatly hope you stick around.

[Willowmound]

I don't know about the states but here in the UK it is £8.000 for the services of a vanity publisher or become a celeb.

Which is patently untrue.

The statement is so ridiculous, in fact, that I'd worry for your mental health, if only I cared enough.

[Eirin]

You can buy my PA book anywhere in the world and it cost me nothing.

Yes, yes, but how many have you actually sold? To people who are complete strangers to you, I mean. People who, without any prior knowledge of you and your work, found the book online and thought it looked interesting enough to buy despite PAs exorbitant price.
See, I think you can count those sales on one hand. Possibly on one finger, if that.

"Getting it out there" by having an ISBN is pretty much meaningless. Your book is huddling in online obscurity along with millions of other hopeful works. Millions. The chance of it being found and bought in any great quantity is about on par with you becoming famous simply from being in the phone book (props to DeadlyAccurate :)).

PA can't (even if they want to, which they certainly don't) offer anything but a seven-year long expensive exercise in futility. It's a hell of a way to waste first print rights.

[James D. Macdonald]

As someone who worked there, let me tell you what your book went through:

As someone who worked there, could you tell me what's immediately to the right of the townhouse as you look at the front from across the street?

[dvbone]

There is the funeral home and the lutheran church, big white building with the twin steeples. Which one do you mean?

[dvbone]

Oh right from across the street. There is a townhouse for sale and Frederick Fudge is right there.

[Sparhawk]

There is the funeral home and the lutheran church, big white building with the twin steeples. Which one do you mean?


welcome dvbone. You have my deepest sympathies for having to endure PA. Thanks for giving us some insight as to the goings on inside Fortress Frederick.

[dvbone]

Oh did you mean the Red Door Gallery?

[JimmyD1318]

I would like to say welcome to dvbone. Like everyone else said welcome to the board and thanks for sharing your insight into what goes on inside PA's inner workings. Want some popcorn? :popcorn:

[LexiCan]

Welcome dvbone!!! Glad to have you with us. And great to have your insight!

[Terie]

This morning, someone posted a message on my children's writers and illustrators Yahoo group:

Well hello all I found out my first book didn't sell very well I only sold one copy. Anyone have any advice. All is welcome and needed Thanks Very much.

Yep, it was published by PA. ($24.95 for a 23-page picturebook.)

The thing now is that my list has lots of big proponents of self-publishing, and they're going to jump in with all sorts of advice on promotion and marketing. Sigh. OTOH, we can also start a conversation about PA, which will undoubtedly turn contentious, but there you go.

Still, my heart hurts for this guy. I remember how excited he was when the book came out--and how much my heart hurt for him then when I saw he'd gone with PA.

[Eirin]

The thing now is that my list has lots of big proponents of self-publishing, and they're going to jump in with all sorts of advice on promotion and marketing.

Oh man, that's not good. Even if they do have some excellent advise for self-pubbers, a PA author is so much worse off than someone who actually self published.
I've seen PA touted as an okay choice for self-pubbing, but it isn't. It really, really isn't. Once you've signed with PA, you don't control your rights, you don't control the costs, marketing and distribution is out of your hands, you have no say about product quality, and you don't own the ISBN. And since PA won't give their authors week-by-week (or even month-by-month) updates on sales, you have no way of knowing which, if any, of your promotional efforts were effectual.

One book sold. That's heartbreaking.

[tlblack]

One book sold. That's heartbreaking.

Yes it is, but pretty normal for a PA book. Odds are good that the one sale was to a family member, friend, or co-worker.

[Eirin]

Yeah, I know. At least this author hasn't spent hundreds of dollars buying his own books (one hopes).
I also know PA has over a thousand titles that haven't sold a single copy, but somehow the thought of the poor author only selling one lonely copy of his book seems so very sad, almost worse than selling none at all.

[dvbone]

Looks like I passed Mr. MacDonald's test. Here's what I was going to post yesterday:

I'm happy to answer your questions. I don't remember signing an NDA. I may have but I don't remember doing so. In any event:

The daily quota varied on the day. It was higher on Monday and Friday because we'd get a flood from the weekend and they wanted to clear the backlog before the weekend.

For acquisitions, the quota was about 25 per day. Read a few lines at the beginning and end, and a few in middle. Look for large sections of repeated text. Keyword search for Miranda, Prather, Stooges, Scams. I don't remember them all, There are like 50 and they are updated monthly. Make sure author is over 18 and lives in the US or Canada. Send acceptance letter.

For editing, do spelling and grammar check. The quota was about 20 per day. It also varied. I have heard the quota has increased since they did away with even the spelling and grammar check. I hardly did. It wasn't worth risking getting chewed out. Now the Text Department mostly just authors' corrections.

Infocenter I don't know a lot about. Miranda is one, Larry another. Miranda is the big one. Several of her trusted supervisors did it too. I have no idea who does it on the weekends or at night. Willem doesn't do it, as far as I know. He's pretty hands off.

AbsoluteWrite is spoken in whispered tones. That's how I found about it. It was like some Deep Dark Secret, Bringing it up is the same as yelling "I worship Satan!" in a church.

AbsoluteWrite is patrolled, so is Writer's Write and Writer's Beat on a regular basis.

Anything else, just ask.

Edit; if it's true that they are now charging authors for edits, then the Text Department will be a lot busier now.

[Eirin]

Wow, dvbone. Just...wow.
That must've been a hellish kind of job.

[tlblack]

Thank you for that info dvbone. That is quite eye opening.

[Queen of Swords]

Make sure author is over 18 and lives in the US or Canada.

This "standard" seems to have been relaxed as PA casts its net afar. A recent post on the PAMB was made by an author living in New Zealand (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=30768).

AbsoluteWrite is spoken in whispered tones.

I like this. :D

Edit; if it's true that they are now charging authors for edits, then the Text Department will be a lot busier now.

A honeymooner inadvertently confirmed that authors are charged for edits (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=30484).

page proof for <title> 06/17/09
resend back for more correction request charge 06/18/09
respond back to send the changes and $49 charge 06/22/09

Thanks again for sharing your story with us!

[allenparker]

Anything else, just ask.

Edit; if it's true that they are now charging authors for edits, then the Text Department will be a lot busier now.


How often are former employees mentioned around there?

Were former employees re-hired while you were there?

[DaveKuzminski]

What other keywords can you recall?

[ResearchGuy]

. . .
I've seen PA touted as an okay choice for self-pubbing, but it isn't. It really, really isn't.. . . .
It is not self-publishing at all. It is an outright vanity publisher, albeit one that until recently only collected funds on the back end rather than up front.

If you do not own the ISBN, in your (or your company's) name, you are not the publisher. PA owns its ISBNs, in its name. It is the publisher (a very bad one, but still the publisher). The books are not self-published.

--Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

Looks like I passed Mr. MacDonald's test. Here's what I was going to post yesterday:

Actually, no, you didn't.

While Google and Google maps will give you that impression, that wasn't the answer I was looking for.

Okay, try another one. Where is the electric meter for PA's townhouse located?

-- JDM

[kullervo]

Actually, no, you didn't.

While Google and Google maps will give you that impression, that wasn't the answer I was looking for.

Okay, try another one. Where is the electric meter for PA's townhouse located?

-- JDM

I think I see where you are going with this.

[mscelina]

Despite everything I've tried to do, all the sites I've shown her, the lawsuits, the authors' sob stories, the inability to sell the books or get the contract back on it, my mother-in-law just agreed to allow Publish America to 'publish' her book. I tried to stop her; I ran up two flights of stairs when I saw the number come up on the caller ID. She told me that she didn't care, that no one had one 'nice' word to say about her book and that it was none of my business.

I am devastated. Absolutely devastated. I have put a great deal of effort into steering people the right way in the publishing industry, and I can't even keep someone in my own family from participating in the greatest scam in the business.

I give up. After I saved her from the Writer's Literary scam and directed her here and to P&E and Writer Beware, I thought she'd learned something.

Apparently not.

I quit.

[James D. Macdonald]

Time for tough love, mscelina. Don't buy any copies.

[Queen of Swords]

I'm sorry, mscelina. You did your best. You provided your m-i-l with good, accurate information and helped her all you could.

Now she's chosen to throw her lot in with PA. Very well. It's her book and her choice, so be it. When someone agrees to publish your book, the rush is sometimes so strong that clear thought and warnings go out the window.

Maybe she'll be one of the authors who start happy and stay happy. Maybe she'll be disappointed and disillusioned. Time will tell. But you win some and you lose some in this field. Even though your m-i-l is (temporarily) lost, there are so many more writers whom we have helped and whom we'll continue to help.

And we can help current, happy PA authors, too. I was talking to one just the other day and suggested an improvement to her website. She didn't even have her book's synopsis/blurb posted on it because she was concerned PA might object, so there was no clue what the book was about.

Don't quit and don't give up.

Time for tough love, mscelina. Don't buy any copies.

:D Yeah, that too.

[mscelina]

I won't buy any copies. I don't need to. I edited the goddamn thing for her months ago. I still have a copy of it on my hard drive. It's just making me sick that PA is going to benefit from MY work.

Pardon my language.

[ResearchGuy]

Despite everything I've tried to do . . . my mother-in-law just agreed to allow Publish America to 'publish' her book. . . .
People make their own choices and believe what they choose to believe. That is why vanity publishers continue to thrive and will continue to thrive. All you can do is what you can do. I have also seen folks I have explicitly warned away from PA sign up anyway. (None who was more than a casual acquaintance, but still ...)

--Ken

[dvbone]

Actually, no, you didn't.

While Google and Google maps will give you that impression, that wasn't the answer I was looking for.

Okay, try another one. Where is the electric meter for PA's townhouse located?

-- JDM

I don't feel a need to answer your questions, Mr. MacDonald. Sorry. I refuse to submit myself to a public interrogation.

[dvbone]

I do appreciate the welcome from everyone else, though. I'll just lurk for a while.

[LexiCan]

Here's the email PA sent about Twitter. Oh Geez:


Dear Author:

Twitter, anyone?

Follow PublishAmerica at http://twitter.com/PublishAmerica (http://webmail.sc.rr.com/do/redirect?url=http%253A%252F%252Ftwitter.com%252FPu blishAmerica), and receive regular tweets (= updates) on what's going on here.

We'll spill behind the scenes info, tell you the latest about other authors, talk about bestsellers, share friendly gossip, and the best: we will let you in on very special sales offers, with very, very deep discount coupons that only Twitter followers may use.

Here's the first one:

Click on our Twitter page to become a follower, then call us at 301 695 1707 between 9-5 EST, mention coupon code "Twitter", and receive 5 copies of your book for only $3.99 each. Most titles qualify. Offer ends tomorrow night.


Don't know what Twitter is? Here's a 4-minute how-to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0xbjIE8cPM&NR=1 (http://webmail.sc.rr.com/do/redirect?url=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%25 2Fwatch%253Fv%253DJ0xbjIE8cPM%2526NR%253D1). Most of the 45 million Twitter users (64 percent) are between the ages of 25-54, and an additional 20 percent are 55 or older!

Alright then, 'till we tweet again!

PublishAmerica Author Support Tweam

[CatSlave]

You mean tweets like this (http://twitter.com/Jimbotomy/status/3718732202)?

If PA can't remove tweets, this newest scheme should be most entertaining.

BTW, I am puzzled by the repeated comments that there are PA authors in New Zealand, Europe and wherever.
PA stopped accepting submissions from anywhere other than the US and Canada about three years ago, after enduring the PublishBrittanica egg-on-the-face.

Is PA so desperate for $$ that they're accepting contracts from anywhere again?

[Queen of Swords]

BTW, I am puzzled by the repeated comments that there are PA authors in New Zealand, Europe and wherever.
PA stopped accepting submissions from anywhere other than the US and Canada about three years ago, after enduring the PublishBrittanica egg-on-the-face.

I did a little searching. PA Down Under (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=30236):

Hi everyone. I am in Australia and new to Publish America.

[CatSlave]

I did a little searching. PA Down Under (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=30236):
The effort and cost of maintaining authors outside of the US was too much for PA to deal with before.
And can you imagine the shipping costs involved in sending books overseas?
Stupid question, of course you can. :D

I wonder if accepting an overseas contract was a sloppy mistake on the part of PA, or if they just don't care anymore and will take whatever they can get.

[CaoPaux]

Hold on to yer Blackberries, folks, I'm going to break out this Twitter stuff into its own thread a la PAMB....

ETA: Done. PA on Twitter is here: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153959

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't feel a need to answer your questions, Mr. MacDonald. Sorry. I refuse to submit myself to a public interrogation.

Cool. And I don't have to believe you are who/what you claim you are.

[Don Davidson]

I won't buy any copies. I don't need to. I edited the goddamn thing for her months ago. I still have a copy of it on my hard drive. It's just making me sick that PA is going to benefit from MY work.

Pardon my language.

All may not yet be lost. PA won't benefit if no one buys the book--especially your mother-in-law. And once she sees the price, she may have 2nd thoughts. In any event, you did what you could, and now she must live with her choice. My guess is that she will live to rue that choice.

[James D. Macdonald]

And ...

It's about time to shut this thread and start another ... the Newer Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153982).