The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT) [Archive] - Page 39

AnneMarble

12-10-2008, 12:59 AM

They did not actually email me after they sent me a contract. I did not even send them my whole book! That made me wary, not that I wasn't already, and when they sent me the contract--which I don't think that you actually need to sign for a publisher. Do you?--it was so 1700's language and convoluted sentences that I did not like them at all after that. [quote]
You do need to sign a contract with a publisher, even Random House, etc. However, while legitimate publishing contracts can be confusing, they're not as bad as the PA contract (which is designed to help PA). I have seen a couple of new publishers (not scams, just tiny and incompetent) that thought they were helping the author because they didn't have a contract -- but that could actually hurt the author. What rights is the publisher buying? What are they promising to the author? What happens to the book if they go out of business? What if the author decides to go somewhere else?

Also, real (in other words, commercial) publishers don't send a new writer a contract unless they have read the entire book. (In the case of nonfiction, sometimes a publisher might accept a book after reading the proposal -- but if the author is new, then even if the proposal is great, they probably want to read the whole thing.)

[quote=Elwolf;3046288]I never signed their contract either.

Yay, for me!
Yay!
:Trophy:

Cyia

12-10-2008, 03:48 AM

I've been going to some of the "author links" from PA to see if any of them have excerpts from their books... most don't. Of the ones that do, and aren't fiction, and alarming number seem to be 1st person accounts of the author's tragic past.

This seriously squicks me.

Not only are these people being taken advantage of in the sense that what they dream of will never happen with PA the way it's set up, but they're exorcising some serious personal demons. No doubt they hoped that their stories would reach the masses and serve as an inspirational story of some kind. This put the PA scam into a whole new level of disgusting to me.

No wonder so many of them don't want to believe the things outsiders say about their "publisher"; they want to believe they've made it out of the cycle of being used and abused - that they've risen above being a victim - when all they've done is fallen prey to a new predator that exploits them every bit as much as their past abusers.

Even if it's not in the physical sense of abuse, they're still being used and lied to. Whatever talent they may have is being squandered. They're not digging themselves out of a hole, at best they're moving laterally. I guess it's good that they found an outlet for their pain, but... this just makes me very sad.

And angry.

smsarber

12-10-2008, 04:10 AM

That's a great word, "squicks". I have no idea what it means, but I like it!!

Cyia

12-10-2008, 04:40 AM

It sickens me until I go squishy - "squick"

smsarber

12-10-2008, 05:50 AM

Aha! Now that REALLY describes the warm, fuzzy, moldy feeling I get from PublishAmerica!

Nivarion

12-10-2008, 07:19 PM

Afinerosesheis

12-10-2008, 11:45 PM

you know, i was doing a bit of research on publishers when i was not writing over the summer, and PA was slowly climbing the list. shure as hell glad i found you guys. wouldn't have gotten any thing from me though, im poor.

I'm glad you came here, too. You are very fortunate. I only wish others could've found AW before they found PA.

Nivarion

12-13-2008, 02:40 AM

YAY FOR AW.

and an excerpt from my newest PA book.

"What?............................................. .................................................. ................" skipping to page 60
"..........................did..................... ............................................." and to page 100 ".................................................. ....you........................................... ......................" and the end (pg 600) "...............................Say, The end"

it required a roll of pennies and a few pencils to write but i think it will be worth the laughs. or it would be if a actually did it... you know what, it might be funny to. What do you say yall, will they accept the book of "What did you say?"

Don Davidson

12-13-2008, 08:47 AM

you know, i was doing a bit of research on publishers when i was not writing over the summer, and PA was slowly climbing the list. shure as hell glad i found you guys. wouldn't have gotten any thing from me though, im poor.

They would have gotten the right to publish your book for seven long years--like they did mine. Even if they don't get any of your money, they still would have the rights to your book for a long time. I wish I had been more cautious, but you live and learn. I admit it--they scammed me.

Afinerosesheis

12-14-2008, 02:38 AM

They would have gotten the right to publish your book for seven long years--like they did mine. Even if they don't get any of your money, they still would have the rights to your book for a long time. I wish I had been more cautious, but you live and learn. I admit it--they scammed me.

Live and learn, that's the best way to think about it. At least you (and Me) were smart enough not to send them a second or even a third manuscript. Just think of that. Yikes!

Cyia

12-14-2008, 02:39 AM

Do you think they'll ever start doing "multi-book" deals with the people who sign with them to lock up their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd books?

M.R.J. Le Blanc

12-14-2008, 02:41 AM

If they do, I think that'll be a sign of desperation. As in the cashflow starts dwindling.

DaveKuzminski

12-14-2008, 04:19 AM

Unless PublishAmerica prints out the aiuthor copies with their own machine, multiple books would be too much of an investment for PA to make with LSI on just one writer unless PA gets an agreement in advance from the writer for a minimum order on each book. Then if PA does that, they'd no longer have the option of claiming they're not a vanity publisher because there'd be money obligated to them up front. So for now it appears as though that might not be a viable idea or option for PA to consider or take.

tlblack

12-14-2008, 09:49 AM

Half the time when I log onto myspace, I get to see this on my home page.

Need a Book Publisher?
Avoid stigma of paying a publisher!
We want your book, not your money.

www.publishamerica.com

The rest of the time I get to see the ad for wlwritersagency.

Makes me gag.

smsarber

12-14-2008, 10:11 AM

That's so wierd Teresa, I never have had a PA solicitation on my home page. And I have my stories on my blog, and in my profile it says I'm a writer. Maybe I'm lucky... course, now that I've said that...

tlblack

12-14-2008, 05:23 PM

PA seems to follow me around like a swarm of flies. Maybe I should sue them for harrassment?:Shrug:

PVish

12-14-2008, 05:52 PM

Apparently there are some books that PA rejects. After reading this entry from Dec. 8, 2008, on the PA author news page (http://www.publishamerica.com/authornews):
Deep regrets are expressed by the author of [Title Redacted], [Author's name redacted]. Due to a technicality regarding the category this book should have been place, publication will have to begin again. Stay tuned for news of a date for book's release! Meanwhile check out [Website (www.vanvlackvisions.com)] and keep yourself posted!

My curiosity, piqued, I went to her website. From one particular page (http://www.vanvlackvisions.com/13.html), I concluded that her book might be just a little far-fetched for PA. Or perhaps it was just too difficult to get permission from a deceased famous person that the author was channeling. Or else, as the author states on her page, it didn't fit into the right category.

However, at the bottom of that Publisher Lost!!!!! page, she still has the PA logo and link.

James D. Macdonald

12-14-2008, 06:03 PM

My curiosity, piqued, I went to her website. From one particular page (http://www.vanvlackvisions.com/13.html), I concluded that her book might be just a little far-fetched for PA. Or perhaps it was just too difficult to get permission from a deceased famous person that the author was channeling. Or else, as the author states on her page, it didn't fit into the right category.

I suspect that it was, as she says, "technical requirements":

The author wishes to express that it was only technical requirements that are listed and provided for an author to follow that were overlooked by this author that lead to these difficulties.

I bet that she only has it in typescript, not as an electronic file.

PVish

12-14-2008, 06:13 PM

I suspect that it was, as she says, "technical requirements":

I bet that she only has it in typescript, not as an electronic file.

She had announced the book's progress a few times on the PA Author News:
7/15/2008, 1:45:26 PM
Getting closer to production! Stay tuned
and
8/8/2008, 2:08:00 PM
Please see website for information. The book is in the stage of having the text organized. Yippie!

PA had this book for months.

Gillhoughly

12-14-2008, 08:47 PM

Anyone else getting "electronic greetings" from PA writers?

One turned up in my mail. I thought it was from a casual acquaintance in publishing who has the same last name.

The addy went to PA. I thought it was a joke sent by that acquaintance.

Nope-- it was a legit card from a PA victim, whose greeting said he would appreciate it if I would read his book.

The page link didn't go to the book, but to the general PA page. I typed in the name of the book. Finally, an ordering page.

The synopsis had the benefit of spell-check, but slipped on other things with clumsy sentence structure, malapropisms, etc. and left out the name of the MC. It doesn't seem to have a category, so it could be mainstream fiction, mystery, or non-fiction memoir, you just can't tell. The cover screams "romance" --which doesn't match with the synopsis.

No look inside feature, of course.

I can buy this trade PB for a mere 21.95--DOWN from its original price of 27.95.

I'd rather buy a book from B&N for 13.95, then spend the remaining 8 bucks on lunch. Or another book.

smsarber

12-14-2008, 09:08 PM

:cry::roll:It is sad, but hilarious how sloppy PA is getting. And the fact that they don't even try to cover up their greed.

Cyia

12-14-2008, 11:20 PM

I've been reading about some of the "sting" books people (and groups) have passed through PA.

Has anyone thought about submitting a MS that say 50 or 60 pages in starts a detailed list of PA's affronts starting with: The voluntary publication of this text by the publisher constitutes an admission of guilt by the same in reference to all of the following?

They say they "edit" their books and even read them, so there's not much chance of that slipping through is there?

M.R.J. Le Blanc

12-15-2008, 12:22 AM

tlblack

12-15-2008, 12:42 AM

Has anyone thought about submitting a MS that say 50 or 60 pages in starts a detailed list of PA's affronts starting with: The voluntary publication of this text by the publisher constitutes an admission of guilt by the same in reference to all of the following?

Now that you mentioned it here, PA will be sure to check pages 50-60 of every ms they receive.

Cyia

12-15-2008, 12:46 AM

Nah - it takes effort to read as many books as pass through their doors - and it doesn't HAVE to be pgs 50-60; it could be anywhere.

*runs away laughing maniacally and rubbing hands together*

Arkie

12-15-2008, 12:49 AM

I've been tempted to try something like this, just to see if it would work. Maybe I'd be the best selling PA author :roll:

I doubt it would be difficult to get a sting application accepted. Getting one published is another matter, as it involves signing a seven-year contract. Anyone serious about a future writing career would best be served staying away from perpetuating a fraud on a publisher, even one as poorly thought of as PA. The internet is an unforgiving place. When word gets out there, it stays out there. One of the most celebrated stings was the acceptance of the MS for Atlanta Nights by Travis Tea (a conglomerate of writers from this board), but it wasn't published by PA, but through LULU.

Cyia

12-15-2008, 12:55 AM

It doesn't have to get published - just accepted. And it wouldn't be any more a fraud than anything else they've agreed to "take a chance on".

smsarber

12-15-2008, 01:01 AM

But it is dangerous territory.

merrihiatt

12-15-2008, 09:16 AM

Dear Author,

Okay, we heard you. So we'll run it one more week: PublishAmerica's Christmas Sale offer!

PublishAmerica authors receive a 50 percent discount on all orders. Shipping is FREE for all orders of 25 copies or more.

Phone orders only, at 301 695 1707, between 9am - 5pm EST. Sorry, hardcovers are excluded, but full-color books are included! Free shipping within USA only. Special sales code: Santa. Offer expires this Friday, December 19.

Thank you!

PublishAmerica Author Support Team

Funny how PA can't respond to my two requests to remove the testimonial they placed on their website (that I did not write) which included a misspelling of my name, nor the two e-mails I sent regarding being banned from leaving messages on their message board, but they are Johnny-on-the-spot to send me information about buying more of my own books.

M.R.J. Le Blanc

12-15-2008, 09:26 AM

It's probably a mailing list that they haven't bothered to take people off of unless they get really annoying.

Afinerosesheis

12-15-2008, 03:49 PM

Dear Author,
Okay, we heard you. So we'll run it one more week: PublishAmerica's Christmas Sale offer!

PublishAmerica authors receive a 50 percent discount on all orders. Shipping is FREE for all orders of 25 copies or more.

Phone orders only, at 301 695 1707, between 9am - 5pm EST. Sorry, hardcovers are excluded, but full-color books are included! Free shipping within USA only. Special sales code: Santa. Offer expires this Friday, December 19.

Thank you!
PublishAmerica Author Support Team

****They didn't hear a darn thing. They just want to push books down authors' throats. Promote, promote, promote! If they had actually "heard" their authors, they would do a lot more than peddle books to authors and write tone letters. Examples include printing good quality books, proper editing, competitive pricing, bookstore promotion. I could go on and on, but I won't. I'm tired. It's early and this stupid e-mail in my box on Monday morning does not foretell a pleasant day. =(

allenparker

12-15-2008, 06:31 PM

Do you think they'll ever start doing "multi-book" deals with the people who sign with them to lock up their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd books?

Some of the old contracts had a clause where they had first right of refusal on your next manuscript.

Mine had it.

awp

PVish

12-15-2008, 07:48 PM

Some of the old contracts had a clause where they had first right of refusal on your next manuscript.

Mine had it.
Didn't some of the old contracts also give PA the rights for seventy years or so instead of seven?

Arkie

12-15-2008, 10:03 PM

Didn't some of the old contracts also give PA the rights for seventy years or so instead of seven?

My contract dated Sep 4, 2003, doesn't have anything about seventy years. One sentence does establish a procedure for extending the 7-year contract, thusly: "The Author and the Publisher agree that this agreement is renewable upon the date of its expiration (during) an additional and successive period of seven years, on the same terms and conditions as specified hereinafter, provided that both parties to this agreement shall mutually ratify such renewal in writing at least three months prior to the date of expiration as hereabove set forth."

I placed the word "during" in parenthesis, as I believe it is incorrect. I think they must have meant "for."

tlblack

12-16-2008, 12:17 AM

Didn't some of the old contracts also give PA the rights for seventy years or so instead of seven?

My contract from '01 states that the contract is good for the life of the copyright, which I believe is somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 years. (had no idea then how long that would be) It also states that PA had first right of refusal for my next ms. IF PA was a legitimate publisher, as my agent had made them out to be, then that "first refusal" would have been ok. I believe instead of the "first refual" statement, they now have a clause that says something about automatically extending contracts after the initial seven years is up. I would think that means, for as long as you are willing to buy your own books, PA will be happy to extend and extend and extend. Too bad they can't stretch out of existence.

Gravity

12-16-2008, 01:23 AM

I've discovered a depressing number of writers really don't know what "rights of first refusal" mean. They see those words and think "okay, since Publisher X did my first book, in order to be in compliance with my contract I need to send them my next book." And that's correct. But then the writer makes the hellish jump to, "and when Publisher X offers me a contract for book 2, I have to accept it." Wrong.

Publishing contracts, by nature, are bilateral. So if Publisher X does indeed offer a contract on that second book, the writer is well within their rights to say "okay, if we're going to do this deal, then I want a $25,000 dollar advance, a guaranteed hard-copy print run of a minimum of ten thousand copies, and a full-page spread in the Sunday New York Times."

When Publisher X says (horrified), "no way, it's our deal or nothing", then the writer can simply reply, "fine, it's nothing then" and walk away clean. Ain't that sweet?

tlblack

12-16-2008, 03:09 AM

What I thought was strange was that my PA trade paperback went into hard cover and e-book based on sales, yet when I sent them my second ms (which I intentionally left in first draft with more errors than even PA could add to it) they claimed they couldn't accept my second one based on lack of sales from the first. I'd have loved to be able to make the trip to Maryland to have a look at their books.

Don Davidson

12-17-2008, 08:07 AM

My contract dated Sep 4, 2003, doesn't have anything about seventy years. One sentence does establish a procedure for extending the 7-year contract, thusly: "The Author and the Publisher agree that this agreement is renewable upon the date of its expiration (during) an additional and successive period of seven years, on the same terms and conditions as specified hereinafter, provided that both parties to this agreement shall mutually ratify such renewal in writing at least three months prior to the date of expiration as hereabove set forth."

I placed the word "during" in parenthesis, as I believe it is incorrect. I think they must have meant "for."

My contract provides for automatic renewal at the end of the 7-year period for another 7 years, unless either party opts out in writing at least 3 months prior to expiration. Thus, they seek to lock you in for 14 years unless you affirmatively opt out. (I already sent PA my notice that I am opting out.)

Shadowman

12-17-2008, 10:16 PM

More not so free advertising!!

Dear Author,

Now auctioning: Your book advertised in someone else's book!

After our first successful experiment, when we ran ads in more than 60,000 books, PublishAmerica is again including advertising space in the back of selected titles, typically the last page of the book.

Our full-page ads include pictures of the book cover and the author, a brief cover text, and an author bio. To see samples, go here: www.publishamerica.com/bookads.

You may now bid on being the next author whose book will be advertised in 5,000 other books that will be seen by readers all over the country. Titles are selected based on immediate demand and may include all genres. All PublishAmerica titles may carry such advertising for books of any genre.

How much do you want to spend on securing a full page in five thousand books? Please respond to this email with the dollar amount of your bid, together with your book title. You may also call us at 301 695 1707.

Bidding ends next Wednesday morning at noon EST, December 24. The highest bid wins.

Books will begin printing and shipping in the week of January 5. Ad will appear in books printed inhouse by PublishAmerica only. All bidders will be contacted.

Enjoy the auction!
PublishAmerica Author Support Team

Cyia

12-17-2008, 10:20 PM

Short version: How much are you willing to spend to put your book on the back of another one so poorly constructed and full of so many errors that no one will see the back page?

Shadowman

12-17-2008, 10:27 PM

Now they tell the somewhat truth.

Available TO bookstores nationwide.
www.publishamerica.com

Shadowman

12-17-2008, 10:30 PM

Short version: How much are you willing to spend to put your book on the back of another one so poorly constructed and full of so many errors that no one will see the back page?

I'm still here. And oh yeah, Cyia. That's exactly what it is. Nicely said.

triceretops

12-17-2008, 10:46 PM

If the winning bid is $500 and the next bid down is $498, do you honestly think that they'll let that second bidder go away, or any other substantial under-bids? I think not. I'd love to see what's going on behind the scenes here. Let's say PA takes the ten highest bids and tells them all that they have won/qualified for their placement in 5,000 books. What's to stop them from stacking multiple ads in the backs of the books for more than one author? Or using another 5,000 books for a second author, or a third?

But I guess for all those who believe that money flows toward the publisher, it's a good thing. Guh.

Tri

kittenpoet

12-17-2008, 10:58 PM

Is PA running out of cash or just trying to get more extra $$$? So a romance book add could end up in a crime mystery...or worse...wasn't one of Pa's bestsellers something about x-rated stuff? If that ends in the back of a children's book... gods.... do the authors have a choice to opt out of having adds in their books?

Gillhoughly

12-17-2008, 11:11 PM

Dear Author,

Okay, we heard you.

Yanno, PA lurkers--in 20 years of selling books to real publishers like Ace, Baen, St. Martins, etc. NOT ONE OF THEM EVER URGED ME TO BUY COPIES OF MY OWN TITLES.

NOT ONE.

Real publishers are too busy shipping my books to stores where they make royalties.

Shipping is FREE for all orders of 25 copies or more.

Phooey. Amazon ships free if you buy 25.00 worth or more.

So at the PA half price, your book will cost you about 12.50 (just under the retail price of trade size books from any other house) and they'd love you to blow over 300 bucks of your gift money with them.

I can buy copies of one of my trade books for 5.20 each from one of my publishers.

But I don't have to.

I'm still finding homes for the 25 copies they sent me FREE when they published the book last year!

Oh--you don't make royalties off of titles you buy yourself, do you? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's hard to tell since PA's accounting is as organized as the Keystone Cops on crack.

Oh, hell! Another AW lurker wants us to total up his sales! Where's my stash?
http://www.iaconoresearch.com/PublicArticles/images/060627KeystoneCops.png

merrihiatt

12-17-2008, 11:51 PM

What's to stop them from stacking multiple ads in the backs of the books for more than one author?

My book, a romance novel, has 8 ads in the back of it.
A book about a woman's childhood experience with epilepsy.
A Christian book about praising God.
A whodunit.
A divorced father's tale of fulfillment and growth of his sons.
A children's book about having a parent in the armed forces.
A story about murder, rejection and abuse.
A book of poetry.
A war veteran tells his story.

I must be off some list now, as I didn't receive the "let's bid on placing an ad in the back of another author's book so no one but their relatives and friends will ever see it" e-mail. Yea! Maybe they're getting sick of all my e-mails asking for my rights back, asking why I've been banned from the message boards and asking them to remove the fake testimonial with the misspelling of my name.

merrihiatt

12-17-2008, 11:57 PM

While we pride ourselves in maintaining lower acceptance barriers than any other traditional publisher, like all serious book publishing companies we have to be picky as we can only accept the works that meet our requirements in both areas.
Bolding was PA's, not mine. I don't remember seeing this on their website previously.

merrihiatt

12-17-2008, 11:59 PM

Now they tell the somewhat truth.

Available TO bookstores nationwide.
www.publishamerica.com (http://www.publishamerica.com)
I couldn't find that particular wording when I followed the link. Is this a change from what they posted previously? It is definitely more accurate.

tlblack

12-18-2008, 12:27 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=27907

1st post... authors sig link to MS... "be warned" blog

Queen of Swords

12-18-2008, 12:44 AM

The author was understandably upset that ads for what she calls an "adult" novel appeared in the back of her children's book, and she notified PA.

PA, naturally, ignored the problem and denied any responsibility.

Thank you for sharing your concern with us; however, please pay a quick visit to your local bookstore. If you look at the books there, you are bound to find similar ads placed in the backs of books from all publishers. Indeed, publishers advertising their list is as old as publishing itself.

I wondered why they didn't at least try to smooth things over with this author, and then I realized they had so many other honeymooners and prospective authors. So why should they care?

Christine N.

12-18-2008, 02:06 AM

Yanno, PA lurkers--in 20 years of selling books to real publishers like Ace, Baen, St. Martins, etc. NOT ONE OF THEM EVER URGED ME TO BUY COPIES OF MY OWN TITLES.

NOT ONE.

Real publishers are too busy shipping my books to stores where they make royalties.

Hell, neither of my small publishers has ever sent me a soliciation either. I can GET a good discount if I need books. I can order in small or large quantities, for the SAME discount. I can RETURN them if I need to, at least with one publisher.

But they've never, EVER sent me an e-mail offering me a 'deal'. And the ads in the back of the books? At least one of my publishers already does that, and you can bet your last PA royalty check I didn't pay for it. Other authors have ads for their books in the back of mine. Not 'ads', per se, but excerpts and/or cover copy that people who liked my book can peruse. Guess what? The books advertised there are of the same genre as MY BOOK. I write YA - YA books are advertised. Not erotic romance, not chick-lit. It wouldn't be appropriate.

Seems PA doesn't care much about appropriate. So be careful when buying that next children's book from PA, it might have an ad for Porn Guy's book in the back. ETA: I guess that already happened. HEY, PA, here's a clue: Yes, other publishers do it. NO, they don't mix genres. See, they want to sell more books to people who LIKED THE BOOK THEY BOUGHT.

Incidentally, I think the last auction was what sent Dick Stodghill over the edge about PA. It was about that time that he started speaking out more about what's usual at regular publishers.

Gillhoughly

12-18-2008, 02:12 AM

While we pride ourselves in maintaining lower acceptance barriers

What, like a levy in New Orleans?

we can only accept the works that meet our requirements in both areas.

The writer is over 18 and has a pulse.

Thank you for sharing your concern with us...

...but you have mistaken us for a business that gives a rat's arse. Your payment for buying your own books cleared, so bog off.

JulieB

12-18-2008, 02:47 AM

The only time I was ever asked if I wanted to buy my own books was when a title went out of print. The publisher offered to sell me some at a substantial discount, and I took them up on it. This is normal with commercial publishers.

PVish

12-18-2008, 04:03 AM

"we can only accept the works that meet our requirements in both areas"

The writer is over 18 and has a pulse.

Um, PA's not that strict on requirements. They don't even care if the author is human. My (now-deceased) dog was 14 when his poetry collection was offered a contract. If you've got something that passes for a manuscript and a way to pay for your order, you're good enough for PA.

IIRC, several years ago there was a kid or two who had work accepted by PA. Anybody remember?

spike

12-18-2008, 05:25 AM

Dave.C.Robinson

12-18-2008, 05:35 AM

I see these things and wonder how anyone can think this is how publishing normally works.

Cyia

12-18-2008, 06:03 AM

So they have no way of know who "won" the auction, how much anyone else paid, or if EVERYONE "won" and paid whatever for their ads.

merrihiatt

12-18-2008, 07:27 AM

I would go one step further and say that the bidders don't even know what books those ads will appear in or IF they will appear. How would they know? There's no way to check. Everyone could be a "winner" and PA pockets the money. Accountability is sadly lacking.

BenPanced

12-18-2008, 08:42 AM

tlblack

12-18-2008, 08:52 AM

So, are the stooges just expecting all of their satisfied customers authors just to buy one copy of every book for sale just to see...

I'll just shut up now. Don't want to give anybody any bad ideas...

Bad idea or not, that is really the only way for PA's victims authors to know for sure. Buy a few books by other PA authors. Or, they could just start a PAMB thread and tell each other who's book ads are in the copies of their own books when they buy some stock for the trunk.

PVish

12-18-2008, 04:01 PM

What would be ironic is if ads for authors' own books appeared in the back of their own books. After all, PA does want the authors to buy their own books. What better way?

The three "sample ads" were interesting—one is for Frenchie's book (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookads/bookads2.htm) (with her middle name spelled in two different ways)and one for PA's The Published Author's Guide to Book Promotion (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookads/bookads3.htm) (bet the ad for that one's in the majority of books).

Why would readers of PA books need a book on book promotion? Do you suppose PA knows that the readers of PA books are PA authors?

roncouch

12-18-2008, 04:27 PM

Wonder if "sample ads" appear in Pipe's Books?

DaveKuzminski

12-18-2008, 04:32 PM

The three "sample ads" were interesting—one is for Frenchie's book (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookads/bookads2.htm) (with her middle name spelled in two different ways)and one for PA's The Published Author's Guide to Book Promotion (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookads/bookads3.htm) (bet the ad for that one's in the majority of books).

Personally, I find it difficult to believe that she would pay for an ad for her book.

allenparker

12-18-2008, 05:50 PM

I personally find the Ad business simply silly. If I were to buy an ad, I would want it where it would do some good. After reading about their selection process for placing the ads, I would want a refund.

Now, I know there is a link between sex and the eventual need for children's books. But wouldn't it be better to advertise children's books in the back of sex books? Right behind the ad for discount condoms from the "blemish" or "scratch and dent" department?"

Maybe I should go to work for them. I seem to have a better grasp on this.

Queen of Swords

12-18-2008, 06:01 PM

Now, I know there is a link between sex and the eventual need for children's books.

:ROFL:

Cyia

12-18-2008, 07:06 PM

Aren't there actual laws about advertising adult themed material in children's books and vice versa?

(who's Pipe?)

roncouch

12-18-2008, 07:09 PM

Pipe is a veteran PA-er who sometimes attempts to dilute PA koolaide

thecraftteens

12-18-2008, 09:12 PM

IIRC, several years ago there was a kid or two who had work accepted by PA. Anybody remember?

Yeah, I was under the age of 18 (at the time I signed the contract I was 14) when I went with PA. My mother told me of another teenager in our town that got sucked into their web. I remember being jellos, thinking she would steal all my potential customers. Little did I know...

PVish

12-18-2008, 09:48 PM

Thanks, Crafteens! I knew there was somebody.

Now, from a PA testimonial page, there's this (https://secure.publishamerica.com/testimonials/default.asp?Page=284):
"As for working with PA, I can only say that the entire experience has been warm, friendly and professional. I was in the DC area a couple of months ago and they arranged for me to take a tour of their offices. Great people... every last one of them.
My book, [Title redacted], was released late last month. It's already on the shelves of one book store here in South Florida and I'm working on scheduling signings at many few more."

So, PA is inviting potential victims authors into its lair where goodness-knows-what happens to them. (I'm visualizing souls being sucked out of authors' bodies, but I could be wrong. Probably there's a big vat of kool-aid involved, though.)

I'll bet a good percentage of "every last one of them" no longer works there.

Don Davidson

12-19-2008, 03:23 AM

More not so free advertising!!

Dear Author,

Now auctioning: Your book advertised in someone else's book!

After our first successful experiment, when we ran ads in more than 60,000 books, PublishAmerica is again including advertising space in the back of selected titles, typically the last page of the book.

Our full-page ads include pictures of the book cover and the author, a brief cover text, and an author bio. To see samples, go here: www.publishamerica.com/bookads (http://www.publishamerica.com/bookads).

You may now bid on being the next author whose book will be advertised in 5,000 other books that will be seen by readers all over the country. Titles are selected based on immediate demand and may include all genres. All PublishAmerica titles may carry such advertising for books of any genre.

How much do you want to spend on securing a full page in five thousand books? Please respond to this email with the dollar amount of your bid, together with your book title. You may also call us at 301 695 1707.

Bidding ends next Wednesday morning at noon EST, December 24. The highest bid wins.

Books will begin printing and shipping in the week of January 5. Ad will appear in books printed inhouse by PublishAmerica only. All bidders will be contacted.

Enjoy the auction!
PublishAmerica Author Support Team

A fool and his money are soon parted. I would think even the giddiest PA author would be suspicious of this, since it seems there is a complete lack of verifiability. As others have pointed out, how do you know the ads even ran, much less whether they will actually promote sales? This doesn't even pass the smell test. Either PA is desperate for money and doesn't care how this looks to their authors, or people are actually falling for this. Incredible!

merrihiatt

12-19-2008, 04:27 AM

Either PA is desperate for money and doesn't care how this looks to their authors, or people are actually falling for this.
My book had eight authors books advertised in the back. So, at least eight authors thought it was a good idea. I have no idea how much they bid. What a waste of money... and of hope.

Queen of Swords

12-19-2008, 04:31 AM

Either PA is desperate for money and doesn't care how this looks to their authors, or people are actually falling for this.

PA knows that its authors fall into four categories:

1. Die-hard loyalists for whom PA can do no wrong. One of them posted today on a (now-deleted) thread, saying that other publishers resented PA because it published authors without charging them and had the best covers in the industry besides. These people are small in number, but they defend PA no matter what happens. Usually, they don't think of themselves as serious writers or have plans for a career.

2. Authors who see through PA but use it for their purposes. These are the veterans like Dick Stodghill and the Purple Snowflake. They know full well that PA is a vanity press, but they derive either social or financial benefit from posting on the PAMB, so sending them auction notices makes no difference one way or another.

3. Honeymooners. They are usually unaware of what's normal in publishing, so they're not inclined to be suspicious when PA suggests they pay up for various products or services. Plus, they're in the wonderful euphoric stage where everything is fine and PA is the best publisher in the world for giving them a chance.

4. Disillusioned authors. These authors will either keep quiet about the auction notices or get banned. Either way, there's plenty more where they came from.

So, why not send out more and more pretences under which to milk the flock?

roncouch

12-19-2008, 05:54 AM

In an earlier post I identified Pipe as a veteran AW-er...Pipe is a veteran PA-er. Sorry. I went Christmas shopping today and haven't recovered:)

smsarber

12-19-2008, 06:18 AM

Don Davidson

12-20-2008, 03:21 AM

A fool and PA are easily combined. They talk just good enough a game to reel the ill-prepared in. And when I say "fool," that does not mean an unitelligient person, but one, like myself, who fell for the bait. "Wow! Someone wants to publish my writing! I better jump on this before the opportunity passes!" The brightest of people can still be duped.

You are absolutely right that almost anyone can be duped, especially by people as sophisticated at lies and half-truths as those at PA. But I would think most authors would begin to wonder--if not become outright suspicious--when PA starts soliciting them for money, whether for books or book ads. When PA's slogan is "We want your book, not your money," and then they start going after your money in a very blatant and obvious way like this silly book ad auction, even the dumbest and densest ought to at least begin to wonder.

I began to get suspicious when I read the author questionnaire. I don't remember now exactly what made me suspicious about it, but it prompted me to Google "PublishAmerica scam" just to see if anything would come up. What came next was eye-opening, followed quickly by a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I realized I had been duped. But at least they didn't get any of my money.

smsarber

12-20-2008, 04:44 AM

The problem seems to be that most have already signed the contract before they get suspicious enough.

merrihiatt

12-20-2008, 05:13 AM

The problem seems to be that most have already signed the contract before they get suspicious enough.
That was my experience. I had read a couple of things about PA, but nothing that was really horrible. I even e-mailed two random authors (they glowed about PA). ** rolls eyes ** It wasn't until after I signed my contract and after I received books written by the two authors (they were riddled with errors) that I began to question PA and their business practices.

Alexandra Little

12-20-2008, 05:14 AM

The problem seems to be that most have already signed the contract before they get suspicious enough.

The problem underneath that is that people are too starry-eyed to realize that publishing is a business that works in a certain way. While I understand the draw of "They want to publish me!", I've lost a lot of sympathy after hearing so much of this.

I could get an offer from RandomHouse--or an offer from Writers House to name an agency (and both are very legitimate)--but in either case I would take the contract and find an independent lawyer who can look it over and explain the legal jargon to me before I sign it. It's common sense to me to never sign your name to anything until you understand what it says and you know the standard of the industry of what you're involved it.

And part of knowing what is considered standard in an industry is through extensive research, which can reveal most of the scammers. I never got sucked into or submitted to PA, but I discovered its scam as I was researching the publishing industry in general.

smsarber

12-20-2008, 05:28 AM

I think most PA & ex-PA authors don't want sympathy, and don't need sympathy. But to be able to vent is divine.

merrihiatt

12-20-2008, 05:35 AM

I would take the contract and find an independent lawyer who can look it over and explain the legal jargon to me before I sign it. It's common sense to me to never sign your name to anything until you understand what it says and you know the standard of the industry of what you're involved it.

The contract doesn't tell you that bookstores won't carry PA books because of the high price, low discount and return policy. It also doesn't tell you that PA's business model is to sell books to authors, not bookstores.

I do agree, though, that doing much more research before signing with any publisher is a wise idea. I wish I had done more and will certainly not make that same mistake again.

It is hard to stand by and watch people get sucked in; however, I do have empathy and compassion for those authors who know nothing about the publishing industry and really do believe that PA wants to help them make their dream come true and give their book "the chance it deserves."

John Q. Public is simply delighted that a "traditional" publisher thinks his work is good enough to be published. PA is banking on that vulnerability and uses it to their advantage.

Yes, authors need to be aware and informed, and PA needs to stop misleading people and own up to the fact that they are a printer, nothing more and nothing less

Arkie

12-20-2008, 08:24 PM

Unless you can find an attorney skilled in the publishing business, (s)he would not be able to help much in understanding the PA contract, because as has been stated, it is the business model that needs understanding, not the contract. When I was on the PAMB, we had an attorney or two with books by PA, as well as MDs and PHDs and retired CEOs. In addition there were retired high school teachers as well as one active college level English professor. This type of education representation lent credibility to the board and I suspect helped recruit new members.

I found most of the PAMB members were quite contented with PA and several went on to publish additional books or planned to. Seems to me that the vast majority of PA authors understood the PA business model or came to understand it rather quickly, and I think many or those that were older (and retired) were not in it for the money anyway. They had one book in them and wanted to see it in print and PA offered a fairly simple way to do that. They, for the most part, enjoy being on the PAMB and being a member of the PA club.

Nivarion

12-20-2008, 11:41 PM

From PA FAQ

Regardless, bookstores order PublishAmerica books more than 400 times per day, each day, for immediate sale, for stocking, or for a specific event such as a book signing. Barnes&Noble is our largest customer, followed by Borders and Books-a-Million.

from B&N

hmm, i can't find anything about it on their site.

still, that they had the gall to say that just >:(

Arkie

12-21-2008, 12:06 AM

From PA FAQ

from B&N

hmm, i can't find anything about it on their site.

still, that they had the gall to say that just >:(

Actually, on their site, under Facts and Figures, the number is 600, Fact #4. Also, they are pretty much forthcoming under FAQs, about bookstore placement, a lot more than they used to be.

PVish

12-21-2008, 04:57 AM

In the past, PA has asked authors to change their titles if they're the same—or similar to—well-known books. Wonder how they let this recently published title (http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?catalogid=27352) of a popular book by Adriana Trigiani (http://www.amazon.com/Milk-Glass-Moon-Ballantine-Readers/dp/0345445856) slip through.

If I thought I'd ordered the last book in Trigiani's Big Stone Gap trilogy and got the PA book instead, I'd be less than thrilled.

roncouch

12-21-2008, 06:02 AM

Don Davidson

12-21-2008, 08:41 AM

The problem underneath that is that people are too starry-eyed to realize that publishing is a business that works in a certain way. While I understand the draw of "They want to publish me!", I've lost a lot of sympathy after hearing so much of this.

I could get an offer from RandomHouse--or an offer from Writers House to name an agency (and both are very legitimate)--but in either case I would take the contract and find an independent lawyer who can look it over and explain the legal jargon to me before I sign it. It's common sense to me to never sign your name to anything until you understand what it says and you know the standard of the industry of what you're involved it.

And part of knowing what is considered standard in an industry is through extensive research, which can reveal most of the scammers. I never got sucked into or submitted to PA, but I discovered its scam as I was researching the publishing industry in general.

I suspect you are the exception, but good for you. You were wiser than I was. I signed the contract because I thought PA was legitimate, and I just wanted my book to be read. I think most of the people PA suckers in are not--and do not necessarily aspire to be--professional writers. They are not looking for the best publishing deal or the best contract terms; they are happy that someone wants to publish their book. PA's interest is like a dream come true. The tragedy is that PA is in the dream-crushing business.

Queen of Swords

12-21-2008, 03:57 PM

When I was on the PAMB, we had an attorney or two with books by PA, as well as MDs and PHDs and retired CEOs.

When I looked through that PA news page yesterday, I noticed that one author was a doctor who had written two books on prostate cancer. I looked those up on Amazon.

They were published in 2005 and had no reviews, but one of them had the Search Inside feature. I read the first few pages and stopped when I came across the word "caner" instead of "cancer".

circlexranch

12-21-2008, 06:57 PM

PVish

12-21-2008, 10:54 PM

I took a look at the synopsis for the PA version of the novel and have one comment . . .

WTF???

Appears to be a retro-linear, small town romance, murder mystery, government conspiracy, techno-thriller. I think . . .

But this article (http://www.oakridger.com/news/x1049854935/Heads-Above-the-Crowd) shows that the PA author has writing credentials. I should think that someone who has an MFA in creative writing, who teaches college English, and who lives not terribly far from the Big Stone Gap area should know about the Trigiani title.

But then she apparently didn't know what PA is, too.

James D. Macdonald

12-21-2008, 11:45 PM

I should think that someone who has an MFA in creative writing....

At this point I could say something disparaging about assuming that an MFA in creative writing constitutes "writing credentials," but it would distress some honored members of our community, so I won't.

merrihiatt

12-22-2008, 07:08 AM

Just received this via e-mail:

Here's a three-day-only Very Merry Christmas offer: 60 pct discount on all books*!

This offer will not come back anytime soon, so consider it one-time only, for authors who prefer to have books on hand.

Offer applies to orders of 19 or more copies.

Phone orders only, at XXX.XXX.XXXX, between 9am - 5pm EST. *Sorry, hardcovers and full-color books are excluded. Special sales code: Ocean. Be quick: Offer expires this Wednesday, Dec. 24.

Thank you, and happy holiday!

PublishAmerica Author Support Team

PS: We'll allow a day-after-Christmas grace day. Orders placed on Friday will also be honored. Messages left on our phone answering machine on Christmas Day will also be returned that day to process your order.

They can always seem to find my e-mail address to send me "special offers" to buy my own inflated-cost books, but can't seem to find it to respond to my requests to have my rights to my book returned, explain why I was banned from the message board or remove the testimonial I did not write with the misspelling of my name in it.

Merry we-want-your-money-and-not-just-for-one-time-only Christmas!

Christine N.

12-22-2008, 02:30 PM

I love the 'for authors who prefer to have books on hand' line. That's so that they have legal backup for anyone who says they're forced to buy their own books.

It doesn't really work though, when authors can't really find another avenue to sell through. You can prefer to carry books, sure...if you want to sell any. At all. Ever.

veinglory

12-22-2008, 05:53 PM

I almost snorted coffee when I saw this google add: Need a Book Publisher? - www.publishamerica.com - Avoid stigma of paying a publisher! We want your book, not your money.

triceretops

12-23-2008, 01:37 AM

Ken Schneider

12-23-2008, 02:03 AM

Anyone whyo receives a special offer notice to buy books should return with that notice the umpteen other offers they've sent with a note that says, "I'm sure another sale is just around the corner."

Afinerosesheis

12-23-2008, 06:10 AM

I just counted and I have received twenty nine such offers since late summer. 29! How ridiculous is that? How can anyone in their right mind not see this for what it is? High-pressure solicitations playing on the hopes and dreams of authors. It is just plain terrible.

On to other news. Today I was contacted by a local antique store who, after talking to my father-in-law, offered me booth space to sell my books, for a nominal fee of course. To a PA faithful this would be a dream come true. Something else to post and rave about. For me, it is more money out of my pocket to spend on booth rent and the books I will have to purchase to sit in the shop and collect dust for months. I am appreciative of the woman's kindness, but this is not something I can ever do with my book. I hope by sharing this some of our PA authors might come by and "get it".

Don Davidson

12-23-2008, 08:02 AM

Oh, I love it when they say "Back by popular demand", or "We've decided to extend this generous offer" or "We hear you loud and clear", or "Due to the success of our latest offer", and other variations. Uh, yeah, like they really raked in customers and more authors are trampling each other to take advantage of this deal.

And what is this crap about a "one-time" offer? It's ALL the time.

tri

I started getting these solicitations from PA about 4 months before my book had even been released, and more than a month before the editing process was completed. So they wanted my money while they were still working on my book. The greed of that company is disgusting.

quixote100104

12-23-2008, 09:52 AM

Queen of Swords

12-23-2008, 02:28 PM

I'm not a PA author, but I have a friend who is. He seems to think it's great, disregarding the huge amount of negative information I've found online about them. He seems to be in denial, untrustworthy of the 'web word', believing that he's not on bookshelves because he's a new author, that Amazon's not selling his book because it's temporarily out of stock, etc.

Hi,

If your friend is too deep into denial - and having a book out from PA for a year is quite a bit of time to keep believing that PA is a great publisher - then there won't be much you can do to help him other than supporting him through all the frustrations that are going to come his way.

First, are there any comprehensive reports out there, preferably recent ones, compiling large chunks of this information, with verifiable sources for someone not skilled in/trustful of web research?

Do you mean something in print?

I don't have any suggestions there, but I put together an article on PA (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87060) that contains links (and images) to back up my points, plus plenty of quotes from PA authors. Most of the information about PA is on the web, and from a number of different sources, including editors, literary agents and multiply-published authors who have no reason to lie about PA.

My friend is a good writer, if not yet adapted to writing for the market as opposed to for his and his friends amusement, and I dread him placing any of his future works in this company's hands.

If your friend hasn't yet adapted to writing for a market, then I'm afraid he'll either continue to submit to PA or will find some micropress/self-publishing outlet.

I've seen it happen to at least a dozen other authors. They leave PA, but they don't get the myths out of their minds - they still believe that commercial publishers don't accept manuscripts from unpublished writers, or that their own self-promotion efforts will make up for a lack of distribution. And they don't do the hard, hard work and research necessary to make it in commercial publication.

Hope this helps, and welcome to the board!

smsarber

12-23-2008, 06:41 PM

Quix, click on the "Truth about PA" link in Don Davidson's signature. May help, may not, but Christmas is for miracles, right?

Gillhoughly

12-23-2008, 08:11 PM

Your friend is in the "honeymoon" stage. His baby is out in the world and he wants to believe the lies, not the truth. You may find it best to back off until his royalty check arrives. If ever.

His books aren't in the stores because he is a new writer. Any legit publishing venue has a vested interest in getting new writers into the stores so they can make money.

But PA is quite happy to sell to its own authors and won't change that. They're making too much money.

Back off, and only discuss PA when he brings up the topic. You can't talk sense to a True Believer.

But when the time comes be ready to go over and show him the sheer number of websites that have negative reports about PA.

Point out that legit publishing venues like St. Martins and Random House don't have those kinds of reports against them, only PA.

Here's what I got from Googling "Tor Books" + "scam." (http://www.google.com/search?q=Tor+books+scam&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

"Penguin Publishing" + "scam" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=879&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Penguin+Publishing+scam&spell=1)

"Baen Books" + "scam" (http://www.google.com/search?q=Baen+books+scam&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

Here's what I got Googling "Publish America" + "scam." (http://www.google.com/search?q=Publish+America+scam&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

Tons of horror stories.

BIG difference!

When your friend is ready, be there to support him, and have plenty of facts to back things up. Teach him how to do a google search for himself. It ain't rocket science.

The next time he wants to sell a book to a legit house he only has to go to a bookstore and look on the inside page to find a publisher. PA titles won't be there, BTW.

If he needs a safe place to search for an agent or publisher, direct him to this site. (http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/)

About 1/3 of the way down this page (http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebp.htm) is a huge section on the various problems authors have had with PA. This has not changed. It is interesting to note that ALL of them agree the PA books are overpriced.

2008 article about PA (http://www.chronline.com/storyletters.php?subaction=showfull&id=1201942563&archive=&start_from=&ucat=15&)scamming.

A victim and others comment, 2008. (http://hubpages.com/hub/Publish-America-scam)

The Christianity for Thinkers (http://christianityforthinkers.com/publishamerica.htm) article. 2007-2008

There is plenty here on the AW boards from PA victims like Merrihiatt. She has plenty of posts here on her experiences.

Here are links to what others in the publishing industry have said about PA.

AuthorsLawyer. (http://www.authorslawyer.com/l-publishers.shtml)

The Washington Post. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25187-2005Jan20)

PA Claims. (http://press-publisher-profiles.suite101.com/article.cfm/publish_america_claims)

POD-Dy Mouth (http://girlondemand.blogspot.com/2005/08/publishamerica-sued-again-yawn.html) (blog for Print on Demand books)

A Publisher's Weekly (http://www.lisamaliga.com/publishersweeklyarticle.htm) writer sounds off.

Writer Lee Goldberg. (http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/2004/11/publish_america.html)

Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PublishAmerica) with lots of links.

Also, PA is not recognized as a legit publishing credit by writing organizations like MWA, RWA, SFWA, Author's Guild, and others. They know it for what it is: a vanity press.

But you will have to be patient. While your friend is in denial he won't hear the truth and you'll only piss him off. It's the same as a parent telling a teen daughter to not date the drop out drug dealer. There's no reasoning with 'em at this point, but be there when the boom falls.

JulieB

12-23-2008, 09:42 PM

It can be hard to gain traction in social media. We're still back to the old problem: Where would I get the book? Have I heard of this author? Your friend might build up a network of people who have bought his book. He might sell a few copies via Facebook, but that doesn't make up for proper distribution.

People join that Crocs network on Facebook because they're heard of Crocs. And maybe they think they DO look dumb, or they're just joining for fun.

I know a number of authors with small presses that have this same issue. It's not just limited to PA or self-pubbed authors.

M.R.J. Le Blanc

12-23-2008, 11:29 PM

Second, has anyone ever tried to use social networking to try and magnify the selling power of PA victims and other, admitted sef-publishing authors? I did a Facebook search for "PublishAmerica" and found a surprisingly small number of surprisingly small groups, in a medium where groups like "I Dont care How Comfortable Crocs Are, You Look Like A Dumbass" have over a million members.

It's not going to matter what your friend does. PA makes getting author books difficult for everyone but the author. PA authors have done signings; many times the books never show up for them. People try to order through Amazon or their local bookstores, and sometimes get the runaround. Even if someone is successfully selling their book (hard to do when they're overpriced), PA will sabotage it. Think of PA like a barrel of crabs. Even when one of them manages to make an escape, he's dragged back down.

quixote100104

12-24-2008, 01:00 PM

First off, thanks to all responders for the quick replies and information :-).

It can be hard to gain traction in social media. We're still back to the old problem: Where would I get the book? Have I heard of this author? I know a number of authors with small presses that have this same issue. It's not just limited to PA or self-pubbed authors.

Those are exactly the points I was addressing. I'm learning myself about the difficulties of gaining "traction in social media" (like that term :-) ). And a combined effort would address that point, would it not? An internet storefront focused on small press and independent authors, non-profit and set up to maximize their exposure?

Amazon and Barnes & Noble.com both have affiliate programs which pay commissions on referrals, which could help fund the operation. Possibly other ordering sources have them. In the case of Amazon, at least, the commissions apply to any purchases made in the window opened from the affiliate link.

Do publishers drop-ship for online vendors? If not, most places I've ordered things from online allow orders to be shipped as gifts, which is kind've like drop-shipping by another name in that it eliminates the need to maintain a stocking and shipping operation. I've read that customer service and order fulfillment can be outsourced competitively to organizations that exist to do just that.

Like I said, I'm new to the whole social web thing, and certainly have no experience setting up businesses or running marketing, but it seems to me that struggling authors are a fairly large group with a common interest and that social media is designed to link together such groups and increase their voice. From what I've seen, most new authors sell a lot to their own friends, family and acquaintances anyway.

In terms of Facebook (the social media I know the most about, at the moment), how many friends does each struggling author have? How many do they have? How many of those are readers who might appreciate an outlet for books they might otherwise not have heard of? Or, barring that, might add an intermediate step on their way to Amazon or whatever to buy something else and support an organization trying to help a friend or friend-of-friend get wider exposure? A step that would cost them nothing but the time needed to click an extra link?

I realize that most of the above isn't strictly in the spirit of this specific thread anymore...is there a more appropriate place on these boards to place it?

In terms of PA victims, perhaps this wouldn't be a solution, but it could hardly hurt. One thing I noticed on Facebook was the phenomenal growth of Causes. If 4.25 million people joined the Cause "Support The O Campaign for Cancer Prevention" (http://apps.facebook.com/causes/210?m=8ef6a43a&recruiter_id=31035468), how many of them would click a link in a message from that Cause that offered books pledged to donate to the Cause from each purchase? Even if they got there and discovered that only certain books offered there supported their Cause, they'd probably still look if they could click once and get a list of just those books, right? How many might buy?

This type of thing could be especially valuable for someone like a PA victim, whose books are over priced for competitive sales. My Dad did some work in fund-raising a while back and he pointed out that that's why fund-raising purchase items sell even though they are often not competitively priced...because the purchaser is looking to support the cause, not get the best deal. This undoubtedly would be less effective for $30 books online than $1 chocolate bars for the local high school band, but again, could it hurt?

The keys I think would be being able to reliably track orders on a daily basis to establish what your charitable commitment will be when the checks arrive and establish accountability for meeting that commitment. And, if the wording was correct, promising to meet that commitment upon receipt of the royalty check, the author would be protected from liability if their checks were withheld or insufficient. Maybe more than protected. I'd think that, say, a few thousand pissed off cancer supporters would be a bit more of stick to swing against a company like PA than most of their authors generally have.

I tried to get my friend to do this, but he balked at the notion of selling through any outlet but PA's own website, as he feels this most directly services his royalties. Personally, I don’t think you eed a business degree to calculate the difference between making $1 each on 10,000 sales vs. $10 each on 100, assuming equal cost in marketing, etc. but, as I said, he’s a believer.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider giving a company like PA enough information about myself for them to sell me a book. In addition to their reputation, I couldn't help but notice that they have a very suspicious-looking, required checkbox on their author submission page (http://www.publishamerica.com/authorinfoform.htm). You have to check it to submit, obviously agreeing to something...but what? Anybody know?

One last question; perhaps an odd one. Has anyone compiled a list of pro-PA info? Sometimes, especially online, it's instructive to see the disparity between pro and con. When I first researched PA a little over a year ago, I was interested to see that, in the first thousand Google hits, I couldn't find a good word anywhere about them except on their own website and from some of their authors. But who supports them? Who endorses them and what is the reputation of those people or organizations?

Thoughts?

M.R.J. Le Blanc

12-24-2008, 06:34 PM

One last question; perhaps an odd one. Has anyone compiled a list of pro-PA info? Sometimes, especially online, it's instructive to see the disparity between pro and con. When I first researched PA a little over a year ago, I was interested to see that, in the first thousand Google hits, I couldn't find a good word anywhere about them except on their own website and from some of their authors. But who supports them? Who endorses them and what is the reputation of those people or organizations?

That's because there is no 'true' pro-PA info. There is nothing good about PA, or going with PA. PA is able to support itself because it relies on the ignorance of their authors about the publishing business. They know their authors will by loads of their own books because they've got it looking like this is what authors do. Why should they bother trying to get outside support or even sell to bookstores? They're obviously doing well from the support their authors give them (sarcasm here ;) )

BenPanced

12-24-2008, 07:37 PM

The only "pro" PA information we're able to locate is on the PA website and forums. However, any time any one of their authors posts something on the PAMB that questions a policy, there's a good chance it'll get deleted by one of their infomonsters or moved to the private "members only" boards, out of the public light. Is that any way to present a company in a positive light?

Gillhoughly

12-24-2008, 07:44 PM

Who endorses them and what is the reputation of those people or organizations?No one.

Only their own brainwashed victims (until they wake up and smell the coffee) and the Stooges, who want to keep the victim money rolling in.

PA's business model is to market books to their own writers--and that's IT.

As this makes them a ton of money, they won't be changing, and they don't need to worry about anything else.

Except for, oh, wide-awake ex-victims, Absolute Write, and any number of professionals in the publishing industry who are aware that PA is a vanity press.

Say "Publish America" aloud in a room full of editors and agents and listen to the groans and snorts. No one in publishing is remotely worried about competition from them. No one.

No PA book has ever made it to the NYT bestseller list, and to my knowledge not one PA book has ever been endorsed by Oprah or been made into a commercial film.

PA lurkers--you may have a book with the potential to get all three of those holy grails of the publishing world, but it ain't gonna happen unless you get out of the PA tar pit. It's like hoping to win the state lottery, but never buying a ticket, yanno?

JulieB

12-24-2008, 09:02 PM

You ask some good questions. The answer to most of them is that you'll need to spend time researching it. There is however, one point I can answer.

I snipped a lot, so to refresh everyone's memory, the topic was some sort of online store to sell books from small press authors to support charity.

This type of thing could be especially valuable for someone like a PA victim, whose books are over priced for competitive sales. My Dad did some work in fund-raising a while back and he pointed out that that's why fund-raising purchase items sell even though they are often not competitively priced...because the purchaser is looking to support the cause, not get the best deal. This undoubtedly would be less effective for $30 books online than $1 chocolate bars for the local high school band, but again, could it hurt?

There are other PA authors who are donating their profits to charity. You'll need to do the math and see if the effort is worth what you'll get in return. I can't help you there. I can say that when I pay a buck for a bar of Hershey's chocolate, I know what I'm getting. When I pay $15 for a container of Boy Scout popcorn, I know that 40% goes right back to the troop. When I buy a book from an author I've never heard of, I'm wary about it, even if the money does go to charity. What if it isn't the type of stuff I read? (I'm not big on military books, so why would I buy one even to support a cause?) I'd rather check it out in a bookstore before I go spend my money.

The keys I think would be being able to reliably track orders on a daily basis to establish what your charitable commitment will be when the checks arrive and establish accountability for meeting that commitment. And, if the wording was correct, promising to meet that commitment upon receipt of the royalty check, the author would be protected from liability if their checks were withheld or insufficient. Maybe more than protected. I'd think that, say, a few thousand pissed off cancer supporters would be a bit more of stick to swing against a company like PA than most of their authors generally have.

Seriously, the only way you're going to sell that many books is going to be to buy the books up front and resell them. The royalty your friend would get from sales made through PA or Amazon probably wouldn't be enough for you to cover your costs.

I'd also suggest running the whole plan past an attorney.

I also suggest that you read through the threads (particularly the PAMB quotes threads) to see what other PA authors have gone through in trying to sell their books. I'm not saying it can't be done, but even if you're doing this for charity, it's a business, and you need to know exactly what you're getting into.

Gillhoughly

12-24-2008, 10:09 PM

Raise money for charity selling PA books? It's been tried.

What JulieB just said. But in bigger, louder font.

PA's overpricing means your writer ain't gonna make squat for the charity. He's out of pocket buying copies from PA--generating NO royalty for himself that I know of--and no one's interested in buying an overpriced book from an unknown author, even if it IS for charity. They'd rather give direct to the charity itself.

Other PA writers have hoped to raise money from book sales to pay for hospital bills, weddings, and any number of good causes. We see them post their hopes on the PA message board, but never hear anything of how that turned out. I've yet to see one of them crowing about how many thousands of dollars their books got them.

Better believe it--if that EVER happened they'd tell others, adding in gushy thank yous to their supporters and throwing a nyah-nyah to the naysayers.

Their royalty statements have got to be a bitter disappointment.

You want money for charity, buy a few crates of Hershey bars and go door to door. It's faster and will bring in more cash.

Your friend is hosed. When he gets past the denial stage, be there for him.

Don Davidson

12-25-2008, 08:41 AM

Greetings :-),

I'm not a PA author, but I have a friend who is. He seems to think it's great, disregarding the huge amount of negative information I've found online about them. He seems to be in denial, untrustworthy of the 'web word', believing that he's not on bookshelves because he's a new author, that Amazon's not selling his book because it's temporarily out of stock, etc.

I have two questions:

First, are there any comprehensive reports out there, preferably recent ones, compiling large chunks of this information, with verifiable sources for someone not skilled in/trustful of web research? My friend is a good writer, if not yet adapted to writing for the market as opposed to for his and his friends amusement, and I dread him placing any of his future works in this company's hands.

Second, has anyone ever tried to use social networking to try and magnify the selling power of PA victims and other, admitted sef-publishing authors? I did a Facebook search for "PublishAmerica" and found a surprisingly small number of surprisingly small groups, in a medium where groups like "I Dont care How Comfortable Crocs Are, You Look Like A Dumbass" have over a million members.

I'm very new at the social networking thing and only became interested in web marketing when my friend published his book last year, so I may be wrong, but it seems to me that a sort of online co-op for PA and other self-marketed books, linked to the social networking phenomenon, might greatly benefit both those authors and the reading public.

Any thoughts?

Mark Beatty
Allentown, PA, USA

OK, I'm coming late to this discussion. So first let me welcome you to this thread. You've come to the right place. Lots of good information here.

You make a good point about what's out there on the web--lots of horror stories, but most without anything to back them up except the word of someone you don't know. That allows PA to argue that it's just a bunch of disgruntled failures who are lying to cover up their own lack of success, and that they don't represent the majority of happy PA authors. So I began saving copies of everything I sent to PA, and, more importantly, everything PA sent me. Then I put it all on a web page called "The Truth About PublishAmerica." (See the link below.) That way you don't have to take my word for anything--you can read it for yourself, and much of it is in PA's own words. You can read for yourself how PA tries to dance around the fact that they do not promote or market their books--but they do ultimately admit it, falling back on the argument that they have done everything the contract requires them to do.

My royalty statements don't lie (yes, they are on the web page). PA has not sold a single copy of my book. Why? Because I won't buy them, nor will I give them access to my family and friends so PA can try to rip them off.

Your idea of linking PA authors together to increase the potential target customers is very creative, but I fear that it is doomed to failure for the reasons discussed by other responders--most of all, by the price of PA books. My book is less than 200 pages, with no photos or illustrations, and it's a paperback--and PA has it priced at $24.95!!!

You also asked later on if there is any pro-PA information on the web. I make the point on my web page that if all you want is $1.00 and 2 free copies of your book, you'll love PA. PA might also make sense for people who only want a limited market for their book--like the cookbook or family history intended for family members only. Of course, a vanity press might work just as well, and might be cheaper, but that is another story.

My problem with PA is not that they only sell to their own authors, or that they do no marketing or promotion of their books, or even that their books are overpriced. My problem is that PA is deceitful. They are not up-front about their business model. Their web site and their contract are designed to trick you into thinking they operate just like legitimate publishers, by selling your book to the public. But the truth is that they do nothing of the kind. I didn't learn the truth until after I had already signed the contract. And when I learned the truth, it was devastating. I felt embarrassed and humiliated.

You won't find much pro-PA information on the web because scammers don't generally generate much positive information on the web. And that is exactly what I consider PA to be--a scammer. PA is just a very sophisticated scammer.

Arkie

12-25-2008, 06:12 PM

When I was on the PA board early on, when they only had 10,000 happy authors from sea to shining sea, and pressure was being brought to bear in the media about their shady practices, they claimed on their site that 1,000 of their authors had not sold a single copy of their book. I expect that one out of ten figure of complete and abject unsuccess holds true today.

PA authors, new to the system, worry a lot about bookstore placement, and have a problem understanding why PA won't promote their books. Well, PA does not have a publishing staff capable of individual book promotion. Their business model will not allow a minimum $25,000 (a figure I have seen touted as the amount required for a publisher to get behind a book) to get behind individual authors.

PA business model is to make back production costs, which has been estimated at $300.00 per book, and they do this through sales to the author or his "family and friends." I doubt that "family and friends" buy that many books. In my case only 15 people from the list I gave PA in 2004 bought my book. The way they quickly recoup their investment in each author is to sell books to the author and they do this through a continual discount selling program--to the author--advertising such discounts through individual email, and on their message board.

I think I have noticed a trend brought to mind by Don's post above and that is when a book is not selling, they tend to increase the cost of the book so that by some chance there is a sale, they will recoup the maximum, even though the price is an embarrassment to the author and an insult to book buyers everhwhere.

PA authors overtime have tried every trick in the book to sell books and get books into a bookstore. They have tried to sell books to one another so as to generate psuedo sale figures to attract attention. They have purchased books through bookstores, but failed to pick them up, hoping the store will place the uncollected books on store shelves. That quit working a long time ago. They have tried the charity scheme, even to promoting sales for individuals with serious illnesses.

At one time PA promoted a scheme that allowed authors to purchase enough books, so that PA would place their books in the NY Times (not on the bestselling list, but in an ad within the paper). That scheme soon petered out.

What the PA author for the most part does not understand, store placement without publisher promotion will not sell books. I ought to know I managed to get my book into Hastings for three years and on a Barnes and Noble shelf for 16 months and the only sales I had were at Hastings and that was because I pointed individual buyers to the book. The book at B&N never sold and it was in an excellent shelf location. But the PA book is not likely to ever make it to the best locations, which is front tables and windows.

PA is a book factory that takes a manuscript, does no editing, even creating production errors and then attempts to sell the book to author in an attempt to recoup production costs and make a small profit. In order to stay in business PA must take about anything sent to them, process it quickly and set it up for author purchase.

Well, this has been a rambling discourse that I hope makes some sense and prevents someone from being scammed. Happy holidays to all.

Afinerosesheis

12-25-2008, 06:25 PM

Khazarkhum

12-25-2008, 11:59 PM

[quote]Like I said, I'm new to the whole social web thing, and certainly have no experience setting up businesses or running marketing, but it seems to me that struggling authors are a fairly large group with a common interest and that social media is designed to link together such groups and increase their voice. From what I've seen, most new authors sell a lot to their own friends, family and acquaintances anyway. Hello and welcome.

New authors do sell to family & friends, yes. But a new author with Tor or Harlequin or anyone else also sells to many strangers. Realistically, how many people do you know? If everyone who worked where you or your friend do bought the book, how many sales will that be? A few hundred at most? And of course Rowlings didn't know many people when Harry Potter started.

In terms of PA victims, perhaps this wouldn't be a solution, but it could hardly hurt. One thing I noticed on Facebook was the phenomenal growth of Causes. If 4.25 million people joined the Cause "Support The O Campaign for Cancer Prevention" (http://apps.facebook.com/causes/210?m=8ef6a43a&recruiter_id=31035468), how many of them would click a link in a message from that Cause that offered books pledged to donate to the Cause from each purchase? Even if they got there and discovered that only certain books offered there supported their Cause, they'd probably still look if they could click once and get a list of just those books, right? How many might buy?Good question. My guess would be a fraction of 1%.

This type of thing could be especially valuable for someone like a PA victim, whose books are over priced for competitive sales. My Dad did some work in fund-raising a while back and he pointed out that that's why fund-raising purchase items sell even though they are often not competitively priced...because the purchaser is looking to support the cause, not get the best deal. This undoubtedly would be less effective for $30 books online than $1 chocolate bars for the local high school band, but again, could it hurt? Only if the amount going to the charity is clearly spelled out. Charities are not required to give a set amount to the cause anyway.

The keys I think would be being able to reliably track orders on a daily basis to establish what your charitable commitment will be when the checks arrive and establish accountability for meeting that commitment. And, if the wording was correct, promising to meet that commitment upon receipt of the royalty check, the author would be protected from liability if their checks were withheld or insufficient. Maybe more than protected. I'd think that, say, a few thousand pissed off cancer supporters would be a bit more of stick to swing against a company like PA than most of their authors generally have. This is an interesting concept--forcing an outside "review" of PA's accounting. Will it work? I don't know.

I tried to get my friend to do this, but he balked at the notion of selling through any outlet but PA's own website, as he feels this most directly services his royalties. Personally, I don’t think you eed a business degree to calculate the difference between making $1 each on 10,000 sales vs. $10 each on 100, assuming equal cost in marketing, etc. but, as I said, he’s a believer.Once he gets his first royalty check he may change his mind.

One last question; perhaps an odd one. Has anyone compiled a list of pro-PA info? Sometimes, especially online, it's instructive to see the disparity between pro and con. When I first researched PA a little over a year ago, I was interested to see that, in the first thousand Google hits, I couldn't find a good word anywhere about them except on their own website and from some of their authors. But who supports them? Who endorses them and what is the reputation of those people or organizations?

Thoughts?I frankly don't know of any pro-PA sites out there. There must be some.

If you could get an established charity with a pit bull for an accountant involved, it could get very interesting indeed.

cethklein

12-26-2008, 05:37 AM

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that PA has sent me twenty-nine solicitations to buy my own books, and that twenty-nine was just since this past summer. If that doesn't tell you something shady about PA then nothing will.

BTW Merry Christmas to everyone =)

Be safe, happy, and do a good deed for someone in need. Not with money, but with your heart.

~~~Mel

I still say the biggest red flag with PA can be found right in their logo:

"We treat our authors the old fashioned way...we pay them."

If that doesn't imply to people who their target audience is, I really don't know what does. And I'm not even mentioning the guilty-conscience aspect of it all. (oh wait, I guess I just did.) If they were legit, why would they need to mention so in their logo? Denial is often the first sign of a problem.

PVish

12-26-2008, 06:46 AM

The guy who's sent his current book to Oprah, Tyra Banks, and Alex Trebeck (so he could be a Jeopardy question) is aiming higher with his next book. From PublishAmerica Author News (http://www.publishamerica.com/authornews/):
Dimension Films and Paramount Studios Approached!
12/23/2008, 3:08:07 PM
[Name Redacted] approaches both Paramount Studios and Dimension films via e-mail in search of a buyer for the motion picture rights to his latest novella "[Title Redacted]" to be released 2009. Be on the look out for more news regarding this issue.

He certainly is persistent. Too bad he didn't persist in getting a real publisher.

JulieB

12-26-2008, 06:52 AM

The guy who's sent his current book to Oprah, Tyra Banks, and Alex Trebeck (so he could be a Jeopardy question) is aiming higher with his next book. From PublishAmerica Author News (http://www.publishamerica.com/authornews/):

Dimension Films and Paramount Studios Approached!
12/23/2008, 3:08:07 PM
[Name Redacted] approaches both Paramount Studios and Dimension films via e-mail in search of a buyer for the motion picture rights to his latest novella "[Title Redacted]" to be released 2009. Be on the look out for more news regarding this issue.

He certainly is persistent. Too bad he didn't persist in getting a real publisher.

Oh, dear. His proposals will end up deleted - if they don't wind up in the spam folder. No one gets in to see the producer without an agent. Not no one, not no how!

overfiend

12-26-2008, 08:09 AM

Paramount and Dimension are having a hard time putting bestsellers on the screen with reputed agents and Director/producers backing the project and now you get a PA author with no agent who is not close to even selling 100 copies if not 10 who approches a Film studio so that a movie would be made.I guess those guys at Paramount must be feeling pretty blessed right now to get such.

tlblack

12-26-2008, 08:18 AM

I give the guy credit for trying. Too bad he will just be wasting his time and money. I just hope once he realizes that PA will set a brick wall in front of every attempt he makes at marketing and promoting, (other than buying copies himself and selling them any way he can), that the let down won't be so bad as to make him stop writing.

quixote100104

12-26-2008, 11:49 AM

PA will set a brick wall in front of every attempt he makes at marketing and promoting, (other than buying copies himself and selling them any way he can)
I've seen several references to this on the list. I certianly understand them not supporting such efforts. They don't really seem to do anything, except perhaps sending information to various other online resellers. My friend's book is availible in several dozen online reselling venues that I've seen, though I don't know if this is due to the efforts of PA or the other venues. But how do they block other efforts by authors?

merrihiatt

12-26-2008, 01:01 PM

how do they block other efforts by authors?

PA makes the price of the books too high -- bookstore managers know that they can't sell a book for such a high price. They don't offer the standard discount to bookstores, another reason they might not carry the book. The return policy is inadequate and, if I am not mistaken, requires that the bookstore foot the bill for returning books. Another incentive NOT to purchase PA books. Slow shipment from PA to bookstores. Some folks have reported that orders were never received at all!!!

** added a few minutes later **
PA retains the digital rights to their books and will not allow the search inside feature on Amazon or Google Book Search. This means that someone will have to purchase a book online sight unseen. I would purchase a book online if I had access to several pages so I could get an idea of the writer's style and what the book is about. I generally won't buy books if there's just a one paragraph blurb. At a bookstore, I can flip through the pages and read parts of the book to get an idea of what I'm purchasing. If PA would allow buyers to look inside a book before purchasing, it would really help (or hurt in some cases, due to PA's lack of editing).

tlblack

12-26-2008, 04:30 PM

Merri is right. PA also claims copyright issues in cases where authors have tried to get WalMart to purchase their books to sell in their stores, although those books are listed on the WalMart website. (If the copyright is registered ((which is the authors responsibility)) there should be no issues.) Bookstore managers in my area have never heard of PA. Attempts to get PA to fill out a purchase agreement with a B.A.M. distributor resulted in an email from PA stating they don't do business with that company.

PA only makes the price of its book alluring through discounts to its authors. Bookstores get a 5% discount with a 10% restock fee to PA if the stores return the books. Or, they can purchase books at a greater discount directly from PA with no returns.

Also, because PA doesn't edit the books it prints for content, its safer for them to sell books to authors and not retailers. Imagine the amount of lawsuits there would be against PA for things like libel, slander, plagarism, etc., if all their books were in bookstores. Even when PA had all of the editing options, they ran a spell check.

Think about it. PA prints a lot of memoirs; true stories of suvival. Imagine all those having actual names of victims, and abusers without them knowing they have suddenly been written about. All of their little secrets on paper for anyone to read. PA would have some liabilities if the people in those books ever sued, regardless of how the PA contract is written. PA knows that, so by not making its books easily attainable through bookstores, they know the only people most likely to read those true stories are friends and family of the writer. Plus not editing books and even incorporating more errors into them before printing, they also know there would be a lot of returned books.

I'm sure I've missed a lot more issues, and someone else will add to the list. It's still early and I've not been up long.

Queen of Swords

12-26-2008, 05:02 PM

PA has no toll-free number that people can call to order books. Bookstores aren't likely to call long-distance to place an order. PA also requires upfront payment. Other publishers allow the bookstores to pay after a period of time - ninety days, IIRC.

JulieB

12-26-2008, 07:31 PM

My friend's book is availible in several dozen online reselling venues that I've seen, though I don't know if this is due to the efforts of PA or the other venues.

Once a book has been assigned an ISBN number (something PA does), then it starts to get picked up by the online sellers. This is true for a book that's not even due to be published for months.

platedlizard

12-27-2008, 12:02 AM

That's a great word, "squicks". I have no idea what it means, but I like it!!

I know this was posted a while ago, but I do feel the need to be helpful (plus the cold med are messing with my head) The source of the word is R-rated unfortunately, so I will just link you to the Urban Dictionary, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=squick

Sorry for being off topic.

overfiend

12-27-2008, 03:39 AM

Actually PA has a new inventive way of getting bookstores to buy.According to a so called newbie who i happen to meet on the PA boards and who seemed all too happy to start selling his book,he afterwrds insulted me when i told him what PA was really(separate email of course).He said he knew what PA was all about anyway but wanted to sell books and get published (he didn't go with Lulu because theya re POD...yah right :did your research did you and didn't know PA was also POD).He already sold 100 copies too.Anyway i won't get into this guy's whole story which looks very shabby to me but he said PA told him to go to the bookstore and tell them that the Author would supply books to them and that he got a certain percentage (as an author of PA ) when he bought his own work and he was willing to share the cover difference with them if they accepted to put at least 100 copies of his book on shelves and do some Pr for him.Actually they are telling all their authors that now.I can just imagine what would be the difference between that author and a bible salesman.

Arkie

12-27-2008, 03:56 AM

Marie Pacha

12-27-2008, 04:02 AM

Why would the store want to do PR for the author when the publisher doesn't?

JulieB

12-27-2008, 04:24 AM

Arkie

12-27-2008, 04:40 AM

I may be wrong, but I think the bookstore managers have some leeway in stocking the "local interest" section. Still, 100 books? That doesn't sound right. I can't imagine any bookstore that would take that many - even on consignment - unless they thought they could move them quickly.

I believe you're right, but still it seems to me that you would have to demonstrate that the book will sell before a local manager would order very many. When my PA book came out in 2004 and I found some local interest, I directed them to a Hastings store, where they ordered for home delivery. Hastings then began ordering my book three at a time, and when those sold, they would order three more. I sold a few books that way, but all through my personal direction. I can't imagine a chain book store doing PR. I was down at B&N this morning and bought a couple of books, but with the exception of prominent displays in the window and front tables, I saw nothing that suggested the store was doing extra PR for any book.

overfiend

12-27-2008, 05:37 AM

may be PR would sound like this..slip the Clerk a 20 note or a percentage so that every joe who comes in looking for something good would get a particular book suggested. Or may be they could go the Toys R Us way..wouldn't you want to get this one because it is for a good cause.In my book, anything is good for the attention right especially if you are a PA author chained by the agony of having to market your own book. May be the bookstore in quesition is a local one and not B&H.I didn't get any clarification sorry to say.Anyway, who cares? Once i got that email saying i had to go around and beg bookstores to buy my book with a long list of other "brilliant ideas" was the day i said "screw you" to PA.

smsarber

12-27-2008, 08:20 AM

It wouldn't happen. No way, no how.

James D. Macdonald

12-27-2008, 12:17 PM

100 books sounds about right for total number he's sold to all persons by all routes.

Old Hack

12-27-2008, 07:30 PM

If the author bought 100 copies to get the special discount, it doesn't necessarily follow that the bookstore then took all 100--they might well have only taken one or two. I don't know the standard PA discount, but if the author got 50% off cover price it's not unheard of for UK booksellers to take self-published books at 25% off cover price in order to support a local author--but they'd want full SOR on that, I'd bet, and 90 days.

It seems to me that there could be an element of truth in that story--but it's not all it's made out to be.

PVish

12-27-2008, 08:25 PM

The guy who's sent his PA book to Oprah, Tyra Banks, Alex Trebeck (so he could be a Jeopardy question), and Paramont Studios/Dimension Films is still trying. From PublishAmerica Author News (http://www.publishamerica.com/authornews):Drew Barrymore Questioned
12/26/2008, 9:38:51 AM
Mr. [name redacted] signed into his Drew Barrymore account and placed a question on her website asking if she would be interested in purchasing the motion picture rights to his book titled, "[title redacted]". So far he is still awaiting a reply to his e-mail.

This guy must be the Energizer Bunny of PA. He keeps on going.

How long before he realizes that his efforts are in vain?

Queen of Swords

12-27-2008, 09:38 PM

How long before he realizes that his efforts are in vain?

Perhaps never. I've read of people who have sent hundreds or thousands of letters declaring their unreciprocated love to celebrities. That kind of persistence is undefeatable, no matter how many times it comes up against reality.

Stacia Kane

12-27-2008, 10:02 PM

Does PA even stop for a second and think how terribly unprofessional such posts make them look?

PA authors, when is the last time you went on HarperCollins.com or Random House.com and saw notes about their authors leaving messages on actors' website message boards, asking if they want to buy film rights to their books? Doesn't that seem odd to you at all?

Cyia

12-27-2008, 10:32 PM

Does PA even stop for a second and think how terrible unprofessional such posts make them look?

PA authors, when is the last time you went on HarperCollins.com or Random House.com and saw notes about their authors leaving messages on actors' website message boards, asking if they want to buy film rights to their books? Doesn't that seem odd to you at all?

But... but... but... you mean that's NOT how Stephen King and Tom Clancy got their books made into movies?!!! Not even Michael Crichton? He didn't just leave a lovely inquiry on Spielberg's website saying:

Dear Steve,

You don't know me, but I have this book about dinosaurs and was wondering if you'd like to buy the rights for a movie or something. If so, you can email me anytime.

You have totally blown my illusions about how the industry works. *flails and flounces ala Scarlet O'Hara* I shall never forgive you.

Queen of Swords

12-27-2008, 11:20 PM

Does PA even stop for a second and think how terrible unprofessional such posts make them look?

No, for the simple reason that most of the happy PA authors aren't going to care.

Remember, most of them don't know what commercial publication is like. I just had an email correspondence with a PA author who said that despite poor sales, she would send her second book to PA because only PA didn't charge for publication.

Writers like that are unlikely to be aware of what's considered professional and what's not. They probably haven't done in-depth research into PA, much less looked at the websites of actual publishers with comparison in mind. Even if they have, getting the contract and the online love-bombing that's showered on PAMB newbies will override their doubts. No matter what anyone else says or does, they are a Published Author.

And those who do know better, like the Pipe, will continue to use PA because they get what they want from it. So, why should PA care what anyone says?

Khazarkhum

12-28-2008, 02:42 AM

Remember, most of them don't know what commercial publication is like. I just had an email correspondence with a PA author who said that despite poor sales, she would send her second book to PA because only PA didn't charge for publication.

This sounds like the people who look at commercial publishing, see the people who spend years trying to break in, and figure there has to be a better way. I don't disagree--there probably should be a better way, but PA sure ain't it.

Writers like that are unlikely to be aware of what's considered professional and what's not. They probably haven't done in-depth research into PA, much less looked at the websites of actual publishers with comparison in mind. Even if they have, getting the contract and the online love-bombing that's showered on PAMB newbies will override their doubts. No matter what anyone else says or does, they are a Published Author.

It's the last part that really cements the relationship. The Author RPG is a very powerful drug, and that Kool-aid can taste mighty sweet until it's too late.

Gillhoughly

12-28-2008, 03:37 AM

Remember, most of them don't know what commercial publication is like. I just had an email correspondence with a PA author who said that despite poor sales, she would send her second book to PA because only PA didn't charge for publication.That says it all for far too many people.

I've yet to do a book signing where the topic of "How much did you pay to get published?" failed to surface.

Too many people honestly think you have to pay to get published. They're astounded, and some openly disbelieve me when I give them the truth.

Listen up PA lurkers--it doesn't cost anything.

THEY pay ME. They pay me a lot more than a lousy dollar, too.

The catch is that your words have to be good enough to be worth buying.

If you're not willing to learn your craft and stay at it, fine. If you're too lazy to hit the spell checker or crack a book on basic 5th grade grammar, fine. If you're too chicken to send something out, risking rejection (which is NOT the end of the world, I promise), FINE!

You keep wasting time at PA. It means less competition and more sales for me with real publishers.
.

roncouch

12-28-2008, 05:08 AM

Many PA authors think they've written great books. Maybe some have! PA reinforces their thinking., and, of course, encourages them to market, and sell. These folks with their published PA books view them as their babies. When someone calls their baby ugly, many puff up like a toad frog. I hold PA authors harmless for the most part. AW helped me transition from a recovering PA author to a realistic writer.

Khazarkhum

12-28-2008, 10:04 AM

That says it all for far too many people.

I've yet to do a book signing where the topic of "How much did you pay to get published?" failed to surface.

Too many people honestly think you have to pay to get published. They're astounded, and some openly disbelieve me when I give them the truth.
.

I wonder how much of that is due to the ubiquitous ads for vanity publishers on TV & in magazines? "Major New York Publisher Seeks Books!" is a big piece of bait. How many people who write encounter these? Everyone.

quixote100104

12-28-2008, 10:33 AM

Greetings :-),

In my random wanderings around the boards here, I came across an old post by a former PA employee who said, among other things, that the company has a very bad local reputation as an employer. That got me thinking, what kind of public records are out there for complaints? Better Buisness Bureau? Chamber of Commerce? Maryland Labor Board?

I've never done that kind of research before, so I thought I'd check and see if there was any guidance here before diving in and thrashing about myself :-).

Afinerosesheis

12-28-2008, 08:52 PM

AW helped me transition from a recovering PA author to a realistic writer.

Thank God for AW! :D

circlexranch

12-28-2008, 09:20 PM

Does PA even stop for a second and think how terrible unprofessional such posts make them look?

This particular author also sent a poem to the President. However, I wonder if he realized that he was posting on a parody site, www.whitehouse.org (http://www.whitehouse.org/index.asp) Regardless, it is indescribably tacky.

Here (http://www.whitehouse.org/feedback/45.asp), is that bit of poetry.

circlexranch

12-28-2008, 09:24 PM

One last post about this PA author.

Is he really nuts or is the whole persona he's developed a parody personality and the whole thing is some sort of put on? (http://www.zimbio.com/CERN+Hadron+Collider/articles/151/Bang+Theory+Experiment+Switzerland+Excites)

Ignore the article and seek out a comment from 'mentalll' about 3/4 of the way down the screen. Did PA sign the 'author that it deserves'?

Stacia Kane

12-28-2008, 10:34 PM

Gee, couldn't any of you have corrected my stupid typo for me when quoting? As if the typo wasn't bad enough, it's now been repeated over and over. :-)

And am I the only one who hopes someone in law enforcement has been notified about that creepy stalkery poem?

xhouseboy

12-28-2008, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by DecemberQuinn http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3104819#post3104819)
Does PA even stop for a second and think how terrible unprofessional such posts make them look?

PA authors, when is the last time you went on HarperCollins.com or Random House.com and saw notes about their authors leaving messages on actors' website message boards, asking if they want to buy film rights to their books? Doesn't that seem odd to you at all?

Odd?

Not so much any more.

'Odd' appears to have died a long time ago, or at the very least has lost any semblance to what it used to mean before these posters were sucked into the PA alternate reality.

You've got to remember that this (PA's site) is a place where posters have boasted about leaving book markers/flyers on cafe tables in the hope that someone might just pick one up, and can then be tailed home out of a sense of curiosity over just what sort of individual might be tempted to buy the book online. It's like some kind of reverse and twisted version of through the keyhole -- the person who was attracted to the bookmark lives in a house like this.

And then of course there was HB's second-hand guitar. That had to be the classic of all time: Buy a book and be entered into a draw for this used guitar. Try it out before you purchase, and see how you too can look as cool as HB.

Afinerosesheis

12-29-2008, 01:27 AM

Dear Author:
Buy one book, get one FREE.

Let's blow out the year with a blow-out special:

PublishAmerica authors who, going into the new year, need copies of their book on hand are now given 40 percent discount on all orders. Plus this:

We will double all orders. Again: buy one book, get one FREE.

Example: If you purchase 20 books, we will send you 20 EXTRA, for a total of 40 books. If you purchase 32 books, we will send you 32 EXTRA, for a total of 64 books, etc.

Phone orders only, at 301 695 1707, between 9am - 5pm EST. Hardcovers and full-color books are excluded. Special sales code: Omaha. Extra books only on orders of twenty or more copies. Offer expires this Wednesday, Dec. 31.

Thank you, and Happy New Year!
PublishAmerica Author Support Team

SC Harrison

12-29-2008, 01:30 AM

This just in:

Subject: PublishAmerica Blows Out the Year: Buy One Book, Get One FREE
Date: Dec 28, 2008 2:44 PM
Dear Author:

Buy one book, get one FREE.

Let's blow out the year with a blow-out special:

PublishAmerica authors who, going into the new year, need copies of their book on hand are now given 40 percent discount on all orders. Plus this:

We will double all orders. Again: buy one book, get one FREE.

Example: If you purchase 20 books, we will send you 20 EXTRA, for a total of 40 books. If you purchase 32 books, we will send you 32 EXTRA, for a total of 64 books, etc.

Phone orders only, at 301 695 1707, between 9am - 5pm EST. Hardcovers and full-color books are excluded. Special sales code: Omaha. Extra books only on orders of twenty or more copies. Offer expires this Wednesday, Dec. 31.

Thank you, and Happy New Year!

PublishAmerica Author Support Team

PS: We'll allow a day-after-New Year's grace day. Orders placed on Friday will also be honored. Messages left on our phone answering machine on New Year's Day will also be returned that day to process your order.

The first thing that crossed my mind when I got this e-mail was, "PublishAmerica can blow me", but I would never say something so crude on a public messageboard, where aspiring authors, little children, and other impressionable types might see it.

SC Harrison

12-29-2008, 01:42 AM

Drat! Bested by a love merchant! :(

Just kidding, sweetie. :) I'm sending you a dozen (mental) roses right now...

tlblack

12-29-2008, 02:36 AM

Buy, Buy BUY! Then figure out how to sell those poorly put together PA printed copies and still say you made a little money. Or just stash them away in the garage for all those book signings nobody will allow you to have because you have a PA printed book. PA seems to be making use of the printer they purchased, and in need of $$$ to pay those high priced attorneys they have working on that court case. How's that Instabook lawsuit against PA coming along anyway? Anyone heard any updates?

Afinerosesheis

12-29-2008, 04:14 AM

Drat! Bested by a love merchant! :(

Just kidding, sweetie. :) I'm sending you a dozen (mental) roses right now...

Thank you for the roses and I'll forgive you this time. Love merchant? That's a new one to me. =)

SC Harrison

12-29-2008, 06:03 PM

I sort of made it up on the spot, but after Googling a little bit to see what comes up, I probably should have said, "love story merchant"... :o

smsarber

12-29-2008, 07:02 PM

:eek::whip:

Afinerosesheis

12-29-2008, 07:18 PM

Thanks for redefining that one. I wouldn't want all that extra hassle. ;)

R.J. Miller

12-30-2008, 03:15 PM

Momento Mori

12-30-2008, 03:42 PM

Hi, R. J. Miller and welcome to AW.

R. J. Miller:
I'm a little surprised by all the time and effort spent on this site trashing a small number of agencies and publishers, Publish America and Writer's Literary in particular.

Many of the people posting here about PA and Writer's Literary (the thread for which is here if you want to check it out) (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62493&page=35) have had personal experience of their 'services' and the purpose of the posts is to share information and point out the pitfalls of signing with them to anyone who might be thinking about going with them.

In the case of the Writer's Literary Agency, this is an entity currently being investigated for fraud by the Florida Attorney General because it has virtually no track record of sales and appears to exist for the sole purpose of referring those authors it 'signs' to an editorial company under its control (for which it charges fees in return for 'polishing' a manuscript). There have also been cases of it referring authors to marketing and PR companies (also under the control or associated with Writer's Literary) and there's a suggestion it is now referring authors to a vanity publisher either under its control or an associated company. All these referrals involve the author spending money with little or no hope of ever having their manuscript sold, which is a terrible situation for anyone to be in.

In the case of PA the objections here are to the fact that PA is geared up to make sales to you, your friends and your family and not to the public. Many PA authors find themselves spending a great deal of time, energy and money on marketing and publicity campaigns that have no hope of working because their books will not be available in stores and therefore will never generate sufficient sales to make significant royalties for the author.

There have been countless cases of people who have worked hard to set up store signings, only for PA to fail to deliver books in time. PA books are priced in an uncompetitive way compared to other books in the market and authors who buy their own books (even at a 'discount') find that those books are exempt from PA's obligation to pay royalties and are difficult to sell at a price enabling the author to make money from them. In fact, many PA authors find themselves having to sell self-bought books at a discount, thereby losing money in a two-fold manner (firstly because they won't get royalties and secondly they won't recoup what they've spent).

R. J. Miller:
THat being said, I haven't yet recieved a royalty check and am relatively new to being a published author.

Don't expect to get a royalty check for a significant amount. If you make double figures then you'll have done well. Some of the people posting here have had problems with PA royalty checks that do not reflect the number of books that the author believes were actually sold.

R. J. Miller:
it would be easier if my publisher did most of this stuff but others that I've looked into want their authors to market their work as well.

But there's marketing and there's marketing. A commercial publisher will arrange your promotional material for you (e.g. those book marks, posters and other material that PA authors end up doing themselves).

A commercial publisher will also send out advance review copies to legitimate review journals, newspapers and magazines that tie in with the anticipated market for your book (they won't expect you to organise this yourself and they certainly won't either refuse to provide review copies or make you buy them yourself).

From the commercially published authors I know (and I think some of the posters here who have been published will confirm this), it's generally easier for an author to arrange their own book signings if only because it means they'll fit in with their schedule. However, the marketing department of your publisher should make sure that the relevant book store is fully stocked with your book so that you have copies to sign (whereas PA will only provide books if you or the store have ordered and paid for them).

R. J. Miller:
I'm sure there are some successful author signed with them.

Who? So far as I am aware, no PA author has ever made the New York Times Bestseller list or the USA Today bestseller list. When PA touts its success it's usually in terms of Amazon sales rankings - those figures are meaningless, they can be spiked if an author arranges for all of their friends/family to buy their book on the same day.

R. J. Miller:
I applaud them for giving new talent an opportunity to be heard without paying thousands of dollars to do so.

No author should pay to be published. Money should flow towards the author (known as Yog's Law) - this is how it works with commercial publishers, who will pay you an advance of considerably more than a dollar to publish your work.

If an author wants to self-publish their work (e.g. because they only want a few copies of their book or there's a small niche market for it), then there are other ways of doing it than PA - e.g. Lulu, which is a self-publishing that doesn't pretend to be anything else.

R. J. Miller, I'd urge you to stick around on AW and check out the other Forums because you can learn a lot here about how the publishing industry does work rather than the misinformation that PA usually throws out (e.g. that advances have to be returned if you don't achieve a certain level of sales). If you're not comfortable in this Forum, then there are other places where you can discuss the writing process or just hang out and shoot the breeze.

MM

Christine N.

12-30-2008, 04:46 PM

"Successful authors" depends on your definition of success, I guess. Most writers would define success as having a book readily accessible to the masses, and a great many readers of their books. The best way to determine how many have bought the book is through royalty statments, so more money=more readers. Some define success as seeing their book on the shelves of major chain stores.

If either of those are the case, no, not one of the 30,000 some-odd PA authors is successful. The most copies of a single PA book ever sold was in the neighborhood of 5,000 copies, I think, which is bare minimum by most publishing standards. And the author bought most of those copies. A few have managed to get their books on shelves in one or two stores, but by their own efforts, not their publisher's.

If you define success by having a copy of your book in your hands, then yes, there are a lot of successful PA authors.

I'm with MM - stick around and find out how real publishing works, then compare it to PA.

Queen of Swords

12-30-2008, 05:41 PM

I'm a little surprised by all the time and effort spent on this site trashing a small number of agencies and publishers, Publish America and Writer's Literary in particular.

For the most part, I wouldn't call this "trashing". I'd call it a mixture of venting and being extremely blunt.

As for the time and effort, I don't mind spending that if it will help some other writer who might otherwise have lost not just time and effort but also money and joy in writing. And there are people who have suffered in this way from their experiences with PA.

I am a bit partial since I'm a PA author and so far I have had no problems. THat being said, I haven't yet recieved a royalty check and am relatively new to being a published author.

It's normal to be happy with one's initial experiences of anything - a honeymoon period. If you check the Published Authors board (http://www.publishedauthors.org/forum.htm) (where a lot of PA veterans post), you'll find that many of them were staunch supporters of PA at first, but found it difficult to be so positive after a year or so.

It's true, it would be easier if my publisher did most of this stuff but others that I've looked into want their authors to market their work as well.

The difference between commercial publishers wanting their authors to self-promote (not market) and PA expecting its authors to handle all the distribution and marketing is that commercial publishers have their own salesforce and distributors. They send catalogs out to bookstores. They send review copies out to professional reviewers at no cost to the author. They give the author numerous free copies and even free promotional items that can be used to generate even more publicity.

PA (like POD micropresses and other vanity presses) does none of that. In other words, what real publishers expect their authors to do and what PA authors do are quite different.

Without the muscle of a publisher's marketing department and distributors behind them, authors' efforts alone don't accomplish much. Here's an example of this - a post from the PublishAmerica Message Board (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=28610).

I've joined forums and announced my books release. I have sent out flyers, business cards, talked to any and everyone I can think of, but all I get is "I'm not interested" http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif I had some door magnets made for the truck, and spent no telling how much in gas just driving around, and I'm not talking about locally either. I've visited truck stops, airports, bus stations, train stations and left things there. I've updated my site and buying all I can in "ads" and I have bought TShirts, Hats, Ink Pens, Small Magnets and things of this nature and lots of other things and just gave them away. The only thing I will "NOT" give away is my book, I want them to buy that!

I have made other promotional items and are giving them away. I'm on a very "low" budget and my money is running out, so all I can do now is keep writing and hoping.

Back to your post now.

Are they really so evil that we need to rip them apart at every opportunity. I'm sure there are some successful author signed with them.

If PA does something right or honest - for instance, advertising its authors books for free rather than holding an auction for ad space - we would acknowledge that. Since PA doesn't seem capable of treating its authors professionally, though, we point that out.

And I'm always open to hearing about successful authors, if you can provide the names of the authors or the book titles - and define what a successful author is. For instance, is it someone whose book has sold 5000 or more copies? PA's bestselling title sold 5200 copies, most of them bought by the author - and he doesn't seem to have used PA a second time.

I applaud them for giving new talent an opportunity to be heard without paying thousands of dollars to do so.

As MM said, writers have many opportunities (such as Lulu) to see their books in print if they don't wish to go through commercial publishing. No writer should have to spend thousands of dollars upfront - and no writer should have to spend thousands after the fact buying their books from PA to resell.

If writers only want a chance to be heard, they could also put their work on the Internet and bypass the middleman (PA) altogether.

Welcome to the board, and hope you stick around!

Christine N.

12-30-2008, 06:05 PM

Yeah, SELLING the space in the back of author's books was a new low. Commercial publishers DO advertise their other titles in the back of an author's book, that's true, and as PA told one upset author, is as old as publishing itself. BUT, those commercial publishers advertise those other titles for free (why wouldn't they? They want to make money, and not from the author. It's the publisher's space, after all) and they advertise comparable titles - same genre, same age group, same type of story - something that the reader of the book might also like to purchase if they liked the book in question.

No commercial publisher would put an ad for an adult title in the back of a children's book. Only PA. No commercial publisher would do something as trashy as auction off the ad space at the back of their books. Only PA.

Oh, and NO commercial publisher would offer to print an author's book 'as is', without editing of any kind. PA, apparently, now ONLY offers this option. They used to have three, like editing was the same as going to McD's and choosing from the menu. *shudder*. Only PA.

Not evil, but pretty slimy.

Stacia Kane

12-30-2008, 06:21 PM

First let me start by saying I am not attacking anyone in any way, so don't take this the wrong way.

And let me start by saying welcome! I hope you stick around; this is a great community with a lot of helpful people and very good, solid, useful information.

I'm a little surprised by all the time and effort spent on this site trashing a small number of agencies and publishers, Publish America and Writer's Literary in particular.

I don't actually think time is spent "trashing" anyone here. I think it's spent educating new writers, who may not know how the industry works or what the pitfalls are, how to avoid those pitfalls.

PublishAmerica is a scam; they are a vanity press. Their website is designed to give you, the writer, the impression that they are a legitimate publisher who will get your books into stores across the country. But they won't. They're not set up for that; it's not their business model. They've even admitted under oath that their business model is to sell books back to those who wrote them. A lot of people have lost a lot of money, a lot of time, and most importantly, their all-important first publication rights, to PA.

For example, check out this thread: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50483

This PA author, named Barbara Stevens, had a lot of experience in marketing, and seven or eight thousand dollars to spend on promoting her book. She was absolutely convinced that she would be the one to prove us all wrong.

She spent that seven or eight thousand dollars. In return she got a royalty check for EIGHT DOLLARS. And her website, her MySpace, everything...gone. Apparently she gave up writing altogether.

I'm not sure why it's wrong to speak out against a company that causes that sort of heartbreak and financial loss. And it's the same with WLA. As has been pointed out, they're under investigation for fraud. They've cost thousands of people thousands of dollars and incalcuable amounts of lost time.

I am a bit partial since I'm a PA author and so far I have had no problems. THat being said, I haven't yet recieved a royalty check and am relatively new to being a published author.

Dittoing the "honeymoon period" comments. Wait until you get your first "Don't take that tone with us!" email in response to a perfectly legitimate question. Or until one of your questions is deleted from the PA message board with no explanation.

I have to say that I don't mind doing my own publicity and PA has been very helpful in assisting my with my many questions about everything.
It's true, it would be easier if my publisher did most of this stuff but others that I've looked into want their authors to market their work as well.

My publishers expect me to do some promotion, yes (NOT marketing). I do my blog, because I enjoy that. I may do some signings at some point; I'm going to a couple of conventions. Because that's stuff I want to do; stuff I like doing. My publishers do not expect me to talk to all the local bookstore managers to beg them to stock my book. They do not expect me to carry copies of my books with me wherever I go in hopes of making a sale--in fact, they expressly do NOT want me to do that. They do not expect me to print up, at my own expense, bookmarks, tablecloths, magnets, or stickers, or make lollipop trees.

In addition, every promotional effort I make--like posting the occasional excerpt on my blog, or giving interviews, is backed up by my publishers in the form of them making my books available in bookstores. They send review copies out to major review publications and blogs months before the books release; I've been invited to visit several online forums and sites as a direct result of those copies, and have had a great time doing so (because, again, those are things I enjoy doing.) My publishers back up my efforts and work with me; they do not expect me to do it all myself.

Are they really so evil that we need to rip them apart at every opportunity.

I'd ask Barbara Stevens that question...but apparently she's given up on writing. I guess she couldn't afford to lose another eight grand.

I'm sure there are some successful author signed with them.

But there aren't.

I applaud them for giving new talent an opportunity to be heard without paying thousands of dollars to do so.

My publishers give new talent the opportunity to be heard without paying thousands of dollars to do so every day. In fact, THEY pay that new talent, and I can assure you they pay a lot more than one dollar. Because that's what real publishers do.

Oh, and seeing as how PA's business model is to sell authors their own books...how is that not paying to be published? I don't mean to be harsh to you here, at all. I really don't. I meant my welcome sincerely, and I think it would be great if you hang around and I'd love to help you any way I can and answer any questions you might have.

But here's a question for you to ask yourself, when you pull out your credit card to take advantage of one of PA's "Half price on your own books! Keep copies on hand!" sales. Do you still think you didn't pay to be published?

It's a hard question, I know. And it hurts when you realize what PA really is. But you can move on from it; we have several ex-PA authors here who've gone on to be published by real publishers. You can do it too.

I wish you the best of luck.

smsarber

12-30-2008, 06:29 PM

R.J., welcome! And don't worry, the foul taste you are about to experience is a natural reaction when you do recieve your royalty check. (It will never cover any marketing expenses, unless you are one frugal marketing genius) But the community here will always be around to help in any way. There's a lot more here than just the PA threads, look around.
Remember, "The Grass is Always Greener Over the Septic Tank", translation: PA looks good (from the outside) because they shovel s*it!

circlexranch

12-30-2008, 06:54 PM

Are they really so evil that we need to rip them apart at every opportunity.

In a word . . . yes . . . PA is really that evil.

They don't 'give new talent a chance.' They hobble and destroy dreams.

We can point you to a post made by an editor from a legitimate university press that offered a contract to a writer, including a $1200 advance. They were honest with her about her book - it needed editing and they anticipated most of the sales to be local, with an estimate of 3000 copies. They are professionals and know their market. On the flip side, PA promised her the moon and the stars, all carefully couched in language that bound them to nothing. She took a good book and went to PA.

It was printed (not published, PA is not a publisher), unedited, overpriced and totally unpromoted. It flopped. The writer called the university press editor begging for a second chance. The editor couldn't do a thing, the writer had given her rights to PA and wasn't even going to receive the 'mess of pottage' in return.

The writer nearly killed herself, the legitimate editor convinced her to check herself into a hospital. Where was PA supporting its writer?

Just one of dozens of such stories.

Not one person in the industry, from publishers, to editors, to agents, to bookstores considers a PA writer to be a 'published author.' A few small indies will gladly offer to stock your book and then back off when faced with the PA stone wall.

Publish America is not a publisher. It is an overpriced POD printer.

Some PAers contend they are published because PA gave them an ISBN number. So sorry, anyone can purchase ISBNs from the source. There is nothing magic about an ISBN.

I nearly signed with PA, my finger was hovering over the 'submit' button when something stopped me. And I had done my homework! It sounded like fun. Hang around here and see how much 'fun' the ex-PA veterans had extricating themselves from PA's web.

Welcome and stick around. This is the greatest forum ever for writers newbie and old hand alike.

DeadlyAccurate

12-30-2008, 07:50 PM

When you sell your book's publication rights to a publisher, you do so because you're entering into a mutually-beneficial business relationship. They believe they can make money by selling your book to the public; you believe they can get your book out to the reading public. That means sending advance review copies to reviewers, designing quality cover art, getting your book into catalogs for the bookstore buyers, and getting those buyers to order your book so it'll be sitting on bookstore shelves for the customers to pick up. And not just one or two stores, but dozens or hundreds.

Publish America doesn't actually do anything you can't do yourself. They toss your book into a .pdf, slap some stock photo cover art on it, assign it an ISBN1, and send it to a POD printer. That's it. What does PA provide you that you couldn't do with Kinko's or Lulu? The illusion of being published for real? It's only an illusion2. The ability to get your name out there? Nope. You'll have to do it all yourself.

PA makes you do 90% of the work, but they take 90% of the money.

Plus, your book is listed alongside books written by people who consider that dot below the ">" key on their keyboard a splotch of paint. In other words, they don't vet the quality of even the grammar, let alone the plot, structure, or prose. Fair or not, you are judged by the company you keep.

1That's how your book ends up on Amazon, bn.com, walmart.com, and all the online sites that sell books. It doesn't make your book commercially published. It's more like giving your book a phone number; it just means it exists.

2No one in commercial publishing considers you published. Not agents, not publishers, not editors, not bookstore buyers, not writers. No one. PA is not a stepping stone. It's not a way to get your name out there. It's nothing but a waste of time and money.

Afinerosesheis

12-30-2008, 07:50 PM

Bookstores won't touch you. You can pass out promotional material til the cows come home and it will not make much of a difference, except you'll be in debt for them. You get solicitations every week to buy your own books to resell yourself. My highest royalty check was less than a hundred bucks. You can't find true postings on the PA message board. Posts are edited, deleted, and authors banned all the time. Your book is double price what a similar book would cost. My book is 252 pages and it is around 27.95. No one will pay that for an unknown. PA does not offer proper line editing, do they even offer editing at all? No one will buy a book at that cost, much less want to read it filled with mistakes. I'm not saying you write mistakes, I'm saying without PROPER line editing there will be mistakes.

Oh PA is quite helpful to newbie authors. They were wonderful to me at first, especially when they were filling my order for books I bought. After that they weren't so nice anymore and went on to the new customers (ahem) I mean authors. You say one wrong thing on their board and ZAP, you're gone. Banned forever.

If you think your publisher is okay, then good for you. If you have other ideas, I'd be glad to share with you all 30 solicitations I have received since June of this year to buy my own books.

Good luck to you.

JulieB

12-30-2008, 07:57 PM

Welcome to AW!

Just wanted to point out that there are some very good small presses and agencies. We're not against small. As far as PA goes, I'll let the current and former PA authors here speak for themselves.

Gillhoughly

12-30-2008, 08:11 PM

Welcome to AW, R.J. Miller. I hope you'll stick around and learn the truth about PA.

As others will mention, they don't charge writers up front. They get you after the book is in print. You are expected to buy a certain number of your own books or they won't accept your next one.

Which would be a boon to your career as a writer, trust me!

Are they really so evil that we need to rip them apart at every opportunity.They present themselves as a "traditional" publisher. That's their term, not anyone else's in the industry.

Instead of offering a real advance and getting books into stores, they market solely to their own writers.

So long as they lie to people, these threads are going to stay so we can warn others against using them.

You'll find plenty of former PA members here, and they've got plenty to say about how PA treated them once the honeymoon was over.

I'm sure there are some successful author signed with them.No, not really.

No PA book has ever made it to the NYTimes bestseller list, and to my knowledge not one PA book has ever been endorsed by Oprah or been made into a commercial film.

Successful authors sell their books to real publishing houses that have trained editors and a marketing department that gets the books into stores. You won't find a PA book there unless the author begged for shelf space.

Successful authors mark their sales in the thousands of copies sold, not a dozen or so sold to family and friends.

And successful authors do not pay to get published.

PA plays on the "we shoulder the cost" of getting published. They imply that all writers have to pay to get published, but that's simply not true. A real publisher (not a vanity house) PAYS YOU an advance for the permission to publish your book. You don't lose your rights to it and no editor is going to mangle it. I've sold more than 20 novels to four different houses, and have a great working relationship with all my editors.

What kind of advance? Anything from 500.00 to 5,000.00, depending on the house and how much they expect to make from your words. Sure beats that lousy dollar PA sends out!

PA has a printer that kicks out a book every three to seven minutes. It costs them about 2-3 dollars. Then they expect YOU to sell that book for 25.00. You get a small royalty and they keep the rest.

You won't get a royalty on copies you bought yourself.

Think you got a real editor to check your work over?

Here's a post from a former PA editor that tells you what really happens:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98679

That will give you an idea of just how carefully they support your work.

And finally, PA is not recognized as a professional writing credit with organizations like the MWA, RWA, SFWA, Writer's Guild, and any legit agent.

Say "Publish America" aloud in a room full of editors and agents and listen to the groans and snorts. No one in publishing is remotely worried about competition from them. No one.

We welcome ALL PA WRITERS to Absolute Write. We want you to know what's really going on.

Check out what ex-members have to say about them.

Check out what publishing professionals have to say about them:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33451

And just to reassure, we are slamming PA, not PA writers.

Stacia Kane

12-30-2008, 08:26 PM

But hey, R.J., don't just take our words for it...why not check for yourself?

Before you submitted to them, had you ever heard of PublishAmerica? (If so, how?) Have you ever seen one of their books in your local bookstores, or in Wal-Mart, or Target, or the grocery store, or the drugstore? Ever seen any on the shelves at your local library?

Get up from your computer right now and head to your bookshelves. Look at the imprints on the spines of all your books. Do you own any books published by PublishAmerica? (If so, do you know the author personally?)

What does that tell you?

Look, we don't mean to gang up on you, we really don't. And we know this is difficult, and we know that right now you're probably feeling pretty lousy. Please understand we aren't trying to hurt you, we aren't trying to be mean. We really, honestly do want to help you, and we hope you'll stck around and let us do so.

And even if we haven't convinced you, and you're still happy with PA...we still want you to stick around and participate. There's a lot more to AW than just the PA threads. Come to the genre threads, or the children's books threads, if you like, or have a laugh in Office Party.

circlexranch

12-30-2008, 08:26 PM

A quick little lesson to any PA lurkers in PA math. Afine, I am going to use your book as an example, only because it is convenient because you included PA price and page count.

If Afine's book sold for its max price of $27.95, her max royalty would be $2.20 (8% of max price). Now, that is the ultimate max, not taking into account Amazon or other discounts. Her actual royalty will be quite a bit less after the retailer bite, but using the max is illustrative of her options.

To buy her own book from PA at its best offer of 60% off, it would be $11.18 plus shipping.

If Afine had gone with CreateSpace and used the 'free' option, and not paying the one time $39 fee, she could have sold her book on Amazon for $14.50 and seen the same royalty. That number drops to $10.00 if the one time fee is paid.

To buy her own book from CreateSpace, it ranges from $3.85 to $6.54, depending on the option chosen. Even with say, $2.00 for shipping from the printer, Afine, using the 'pro' option could sell her own book on her website for as low as $8.05 or the 'free' option for $10.74 and still realize the maximum PA return of $2.20.

Lulu.com has gotten pricier, but are still competitive. To buy one copy of her book, it is $9.54. That drops rapidly if she purchases a minimum of 10 books for her own use. To buy and sell one book, Afine can price it at $13.74 ($9.54 book + $2.00 shipping + $2.20 royalty). Using Lulu's suggested retail pricing calculator, she can place the book on the big retail sites at $18.50 and still see that maximum PA return of $2.20.

So, using the max numbers of $18.50 for Lulu and $27.95 for PA for Afine to make $2.20, the question becomes, where does that extra $9.45 per book go? Right into the gas tank of the PA hell-o-copter.

Lulu, PA and Createspace leave all editing, marketing, and promotion to you. They all provide a venue and printing service - nothing more. Lulu and Createspace also don't have negative connotations in the industry. They are upfront about it - they offer a self-publishing servicing, nothing more, nothing less. They do not promise you the moon.

So, it really comes down to the math and the answer is simple - PA just doesn't add up.

Thanks Afine for giving out the info that allowed me to do the math.

Afinerosesheis

12-30-2008, 08:42 PM

You're welcome. And thanks to you, also. I learned from your math lesson too. It gives me chills to see the numbers broke down that way pertaining to my book. That's why I'm here. I don't want others to make the same mistake if they can be warned beforehand.

Cyia

12-30-2008, 08:57 PM

A lot of people have lost a lot of money, a lot of time, and most importantly, their all-important first publication rights, to PA.

For example, check out this thread: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50483

This PA author, named Barbara Stevens, had a lot of experience in marketing, and seven or eight thousand dollars to spend on promoting her book. She was absolutely convinced that she would be the one to prove us all wrong.

She spent that seven or eight thousand dollars. In return she got a royalty check for EIGHT DOLLARS. And her website, her MySpace, everything...gone. Apparently she gave up writing altogether.

I think it's worth mentioning that PA still has this woman's book listed on their site. Not only did they sour her on writing and keep her from achieving her dream (when possibly all she needed was a real publisher and a decent editor... can't read an excerpt so there's no way to tell) But they're still trying to cash in on anyone who might stumble across the title. It's been almost a year since she got that disappointing return on her investment.

roncouch

12-30-2008, 09:13 PM

First let me start by saying I am not attacking anyone in any way, so don't take this the wrong way.
I'm a little surprised by all the time and effort spent on this site trashing a small number of agencies and publishers, Publish America and Writer's Literary in particular.
I am a bit partial since I'm a PA author and so far I have had no problems. THat being said, I haven't yet recieved a royalty check and am relatively new to being a published author.
I have to say that I don't mind doing my own publicity and PA has been very helpful in assisting my with my many questions about everything.
It's true, it would be easier if my publisher did most of this stuff but others that I've looked into want their authors to market their work as well.
Are they really so evil that we need to rip them apart at every opportunity. I'm sure there are some successful author signed with them. I applaud them for giving new talent an opportunity to be heard without paying thousands of dollars to do so.

RJ,

I wish you the very best of luck with PA. I hope your book sells well. It won't, unless you buy them.
My PA book was published one year ago. I've had two royalty checks totaling $70.00 plus. To date, I've broken even, and I'm one of the lucky ones.
The folks on AW are trying to be helpful. It's not PA bashing, although to a new PA author, it may seem like it.
I was banned from the PA message board for asking why so many people were bashing PA.
It was difficult to admit I made a mistake by publishing with PA, but once I did, I was able to focus on, and improve my writing skills with the help of my AW friends.

Ron

kullervo

12-30-2008, 09:15 PM

The prestige (such as it is) that comes with being a published author should derive from the fact that you and your book competed against hundreds or thousands of other writers and their books and came out on top. Your book was judged worthy of a publishing company paying you for your publication rights (more than one dollar), their editing, copyediting, cover design, printing, distributing, marketing, and promotion efforts.

The problem with PA is that you are not competing with anybody. Nearly every writer who sends a manuscript to PA sees it "published." So long as the manuscript is over 8K words and not a blatant plagiarism (Harry Potter and the Big Publishing Scam), the book is printed and another "published author" is born.

And everyone who knows anything about PA and publishing knows it.

Afinerosesheis

12-30-2008, 09:27 PM

RJ,

I wish you the very best of luck with PA. I hope your book sells well. It won't, unless you buy them.
My PA book was published one year ago. I've had two royalty checks totaling $70.00 plus. To date, I've broken even, and I'm one of the lucky ones.
The folks on AW are trying to be helpful. It's not PA bashing, although to a new PA author, it may seem like it.
I was banned from the PA message board for asking why so many people were bashing PA.
It was difficult to admit I made a mistake by publishing with PA, but once I did, I was able to focus on, and improve my writing skills with the help of my AW friends.

Ron

Ron, I think we are two of the lucky ones. We didn't find out before it was too late, but we're not too worse for the wear either. I made some money on the books I bought, but only after the initial large investment for the books themselves. We learned before we "promoted" our butts off to no avail. We were banned from the message boards where the kool-aide flows free. I think besides being PA authors, we didn't come out too bad in the end. We learned from our mistakes and are willing to move ahead. I think we should be thankful for the small blessings considering what others have gone through.

DaveKuzminski

12-30-2008, 09:31 PM

I am a bit partial since I'm a PA author and so far I have had no problems.
In other words, you're concerned that you're being taken. Sorry, but I don't have any reassuring words for you about that.
I have to say that I don't mind doing my own publicity and PA has been very helpful in assisting my with my many questions about everything.
Unfortunately, PA's answers are largely inaccurate because they have no experience in publishing. Their company was fashioned out of a pure vanity publishing outfit called Erica House. Their answers have been deliberately worded in order to sound like they're truly offering something valuable.
It's true, it would be easier if my publisher did most of this stuff but others that I've looked into want their authors to market their work as well.
In that case, you're looking in the wrong places.
Are they really so evil that we need to rip them apart at every opportunity.
Is it evil to send cops to writers' homes to threaten them for speaking out? Is it evil to hold back a writer's book in order to intimidate him from hosting a forum where writers could exchange information about their publisher? Is it evil to report false sales numbers to a writer in order to pocket more of the money his book earned? Is it evil to libel others who never even criticized PublishAmerica and had nothing to do with them? Is it evil for PA to libel and threaten those with factual criticism of PA? Is it evil for them to threaten writers with civil suits for disseminating factual information about PA? Is it evil to give out false information in order to lure writers into signing a contract?
I'm sure there are some successful author signed with them.
I don't know of a single writer yet who became successful with a book printed by PA.
I applaud them for giving new talent an opportunity to be heard without paying thousands of dollars to do so.
Actually, real publishers pay well for the privilege of introducing new talent to the real reading public that extends much farther than the writer's immediate family and next door neighbors and co-employees.

Anyway, it's good you posted here. It shows you can still save your wallet from being emptied even though your book will remain in limbo until PA releases its hold or the contract terminates. My advice is write a new manuscript and find a real publisher for it.

Unimportant

12-30-2008, 10:23 PM

They send review copies out to professional reviewers at no cost to the author. They give the author numerous free copies and even free promotional items that can be used to generate even more publicity. PA (like POD micropresses and other vanity presses) does none of that.

QoS, I'm published with a POD micropress, and they do all of that. They send out review copies. They send me a crate of free books. They provide promotional items. They put adverts in magazines for my book. They attend cons and book fairs and promote my book. No, they don't have the budget or distribution of a big publisher, but it's a niche book for a niche market, and they're quite good at accessing that niche.

They're light years away from PubliSHAMerica.

Queen of Swords

12-30-2008, 10:40 PM

My bad. Many POD micropresses don't do all this for their authors, so it's great to hear of one which does. I'll be more careful about making a blanket statement like that in the future. :)

merrihiatt

12-31-2008, 03:03 AM

Welcome R.J.!!! =) I wish you good luck with your book and hope you will continue writing and achieve great success, whatever you determine that to be.

I am also an author who was excited that PA was going to give my book "the chance it deserved." I didn't do enough research before signing my contract and am now trying to do as much damage control as I can. I am not promoting my book in the way I had originally intended and have chosen to concentrate on other books I have written.

PA's mission is to sell books to authors. Period. It is easier for them to have 100 copies of your book shipped to you than five copies shipped to Phoenix, 3 copies to New York, 4 copies to Seattle, etc. Why bother with all that extra paperwork? After all, they said your book would be available TO bookstores, not IN bookstores.

As far as books being available online, I purchased my own ISBNs and barcodes and decided to self-publish several of my books and they're available online right next to my first printed book by PA (I agree, they are not a publisher). Since I hold the digital rights, I can post my book on Google Book Search and Amazon's Look Inside feature and people can actually read pages and pages of the book to see if it is something they might be interested in. PA authors don't have that option because PA holds the digital rights and they won't allow them to be posted. I think they're afraid that everyone will see how many errors are in many PA books (although, not all PA books). Who wants to buy a book with grammatical and spelling errors? An overpriced book at that!

I was banned from the PA message boards with no explanation (even though I have sent three e-mails asking why I no longer have access). I can only surmise that I was banned becausae I posted on a thread where I agreed with another author that the $27.95 price of his book was quite high and that he could contact me via my website if he wanted to talk about it more.

I also believe that PA times their royalty payments in such a way that they have a built-in excuse if royalty checks seem small. They payout in February and September (if I remember correctly). Since some book sellers have three months to pay for books received, PA can state that your royalty check is low because they haven't received payment from the book sellers yet. You won't know for another six months. That means it will take almost a year before you'll really have an accurate count of sales/royalties. By that time you will have bought many of your own books, spent money on promotion, and may be beginning to see some of the shine come off of PA's self-promoting halo.

I felt like a fool when I realized how I had been scammed. That I believed what PA told me. My gut told me better, but I was so excited that they were interested in me and my book. They were interested in my credit card. That was all. Lesson learned.

Don Davidson

12-31-2008, 08:05 AM

First let me start by saying I am not attacking anyone in any way, so don't take this the wrong way.
I'm a little surprised by all the time and effort spent on this site trashing a small number of agencies and publishers, Publish America and Writer's Literary in particular.
I am a bit partial since I'm a PA author and so far I have had no problems. THat being said, I haven't yet recieved a royalty check and am relatively new to being a published author.
I have to say that I don't mind doing my own publicity and PA has been very helpful in assisting my with my many questions about everything.
It's true, it would be easier if my publisher did most of this stuff but others that I've looked into want their authors to market their work as well.
Are they really so evil that we need to rip them apart at every opportunity. I'm sure there are some successful author signed with them. I applaud them for giving new talent an opportunity to be heard without paying thousands of dollars to do so.

Welcome, R.J. I hope you accept the truth about PA before you waste any money on them. I am a PA author, and I learned the truth not long after signing the contract. I wrote to them and suggested we cancel the contract because I was not going to buy copies of my own book and try to resell them. I got a nasty email back telling me that they intended to enforce the contract and that I shouldn't pay attention to what's on the internet. ("Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!")

So I began saving everything I sent and everything I received from PA, and then I posted it all on a web page for all to read. If you want to learn the truth, check it out by following the link below. I have included documents and emails from PA--some are evasive, and others frankly admit many of the facts you will read here. Oh, and as for royalties--because I won't buy my own books or help PA rip off my family and friends, I have sold ZERO books in the one year since my book's release.

Again, welcome. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but you need to know the truth.

roncouch

01-05-2009, 06:09 AM

Just amazing!

Dear Author,

Now in our 10th year of changing the publishing landscape in many groundbreaking ways, PublishAmerica is ready to explore territory where no other traditional publisher has ever gone before!

We are proud to introduce PublishAmerica's Author Returns Policy. Books remained unsold? Money back!

In 2008, many thousands of our authors chose to keep copies of their own book on hand. Some gave the books away as unique gifts, others resold them. We're confident that only few books were actually overstocked.

Virtually alone in the booming industry of digitally manufactured books (which are almost exclusively printed on-demand), PublishAmerica has developed a substantial experience with overstocked books. We are not aware of any other major traditional publisher that allows bookstores to return on-demand printed books. PublishAmerica does.

So here goes: as an experiment, we are now ready to extend to our PublishAmerica authors similar returnability privileges that bookstores have!

Those who order copies of their book will now receive 50 pct discount, and may return all unsold copies of that order within 120 days, no questions asked.

Phone orders only, at 301 695 1707, between 9am - 5pm EST. Introduction offer expires January 9, after which experiment may be adjusted or terminated.
Conditions: Returnability privilege limited to orders of twenty or more copies, placed after January 4, 2009; lower volumes receive discount only. Books must be bought from PublishAmerica directly, and must be in non-defective condition upon receipt by PublishAmerica if returned for reimbursement. Return window: between 60 and 120 days after purchase; earlier and/or later returns are not accepted. Refund amount will be added to next royalty check. A 10 pct restocking fee applies; shipping and handling charges are non-refundable. Hardcovers and full-color books are excluded. Offer not valid in combination with other discount offers. Special sales code: Overstock.

Thank you for joining us on this exciting new journey! Happy New Year!
PublishAmerica Author Support Team

BenPanced

01-05-2009, 06:17 AM

*boggle*

M.R.J. Le Blanc

01-05-2009, 06:25 AM

I see your *boggle* and raise you an *utterly perplexed* I'm seriously at a loss for words here.

Afinerosesheis

01-05-2009, 06:58 AM

If PA is nothing else, at least they are consistent. :e2drown:

triceretops

01-05-2009, 07:09 AM

Who is paying for shipping both ways? And...a 10% restocking fee?

What the fugg.

Tri

Jersey Chick

01-05-2009, 07:12 AM

Oy.

tlblack

01-05-2009, 07:18 AM

Apparently the weekly "buy your book" offers haven't worked as well as they anticipiated, so they had to come up with another deceptive idea.

merrihiatt

01-05-2009, 07:24 AM

I just received this e-mail as well and was heading over here to post it.

So, once you've paid the 10% restocking fee (will that be on the retail price of the book? And, by the way, where will PA store these returns?), shipping and handling charges to return your books (which I notice is not actually spelled out, so who knows how much those charges will be), you won't get the actual return until your next royalty payment (which in some cases may be six months).

Now in our 10th year of changing the publishing landscape in many groundbreaking ways, PublishAmerica is ready to explore territory where no other traditional publisher has ever gone before!
There wouldn't be a need to offer author returns with a traditional publisher because they give their authors free copies of their books!!! The only groundbreaking they are doing is on their very own policies.

We're confident that only few books were actually overstocked. This is one of the most absurd statements PA has ever made. I am confident that many PA authors have a stack of their books in boxes in the closet/garage.

PublishAmerica has developed a substantial experience with overstocked books.
Well, doesn't that tell you something right there?

So here goes: as an experiment, we are now ready to extend to our PublishAmerica authors similar returnability privileges that bookstores have!
Translation: if it ends up costing us too much money, we will stop this experiment.

Introduction offer expires January 9, after which experiment may be adjusted or terminated.
You have to place your order for 20+ books before this Friday and then you have 120 days to return them. If you're a day late, or if PA decides to alter or rescind this offer, you're stuck with the books.

Conditions: Returnability privilege limited to orders of twenty or more copies, placed after January 4, 2009; lower volumes receive discount only. Books must be bought from PublishAmerica directly, and must be in non-defective condition upon receipt by PublishAmerica if returned for reimbursement. Return window: between 60 and 120 days after purchase; earlier and/or later returns are not accepted. Refund amount will be added to next royalty check. A 10 pct restocking fee applies; shipping and handling charges are non-refundable. Hardcovers and full-color books are excluded. Offer not valid in combination with other discount offers. Special sales code: Overstock.
You're paying to have the books shipped to you and paying to have the books shipped back to PA when you return them. There is no free shipping option when you purchase the books from PA. Just how much are the handling charges? If you order 10 copies of your books, sorry, Charlie, no returns for you.

Heaven forbid they would open up this offer to all orders that have been placed by authors. That would almost be an honorable and reasonable thing to do. With PA those two words do not apply.

Hey PA, why don't you lower the retail cost of your books instead of spending all your time making offers to your authors. Oh, that's right, you don't want to sell books to the public in general. Your target is, and has always been, your authors. Thanks for the reminder. I get you confused with a publishing company sometimes, when in reality you are a printing company.

inkkognito

01-05-2009, 07:25 AM

Books must be bought from PublishAmerica directly, and must be in non-defective condition upon receipt by PublishAmerica if returned for reimbursement.
Aren't many of their books defective to begin with in terms of substandard printing/binding? That would make it hard to comply with this condition.

triceretops

01-05-2009, 07:36 AM

merrihiatt

01-05-2009, 07:50 AM

PA could start charging for the "privilege" of submitting a manuscript. They might call it a "reading fee." Then they could charge for creating covers. They seem to be leaning in that direction already. Of course, if that happens, they'll have to delete the wording on their website that states they don't charge their authors a penny.

cynrad22

01-05-2009, 07:57 AM

PA is in trouble. That's clear. Between the economy and more and more people wising up about their devious tactics, they've given new meaning to the word "desperation." They're hemorrhaging money at an alarming rate. What's also amazing is the discontent found on new boards popping up that are populated by the PA oldtimers.

At no time in their history has PA thrown so much crap at their authors, in just this past year.

Do we see/smell a major collapse?

Or how could it possibly get any worse than this?

Tri

I am so with you on this one. I feel almost evil at the thought of their demise at their own hands. This recession has been ruff on a lot of good people I know, but for once, I am glad for it if it means the demise of Publish America! What a great last minute Christmas gift this would be!
:hooray:

Khazarkhum

01-05-2009, 08:36 AM

I wonder if they'll end up here:

http://www.cirobe.com/

tlblack

01-05-2009, 09:14 AM

PA started running themselves over when they increased already inflated book prices. Then the constant, "buy your own books" emails offering bigger discounts with inflated shipping prices. Many PA authors have seen right through the "deals" and haven't purchased. I image that others who might have taken the offers and purchased books, haven't had the money to spend on anything other than what is necessary to survive. Others are saving whatever they have extra in case the entire bottom falls out of the economy. Business is down everywhere, not just for PA. Between lawsuits, and the economy they are hurting for money. That's obvious from all of the recent sales pitches. Now they are making an offer to let authors return books with a restock fee, and calling it a trial and error thing. Getting desperate PA?

Queen of Swords

01-05-2009, 12:33 PM

Then they could charge for creating covers.

Some authors like to supply their own cover art, either what they've drawn or designed themselves or photographs. PA could request that all authors provide this, perhaps framing it in a positive way as in "Author controls all aspects of the cover. We'll feature YOUR ART, not something generic painted by someone else like other publishers do!" And if the author can't supply this, then they could pay a small cover art fee.

That might cover the costs of subscription or registration with a stock images site.

PVish

01-05-2009, 05:16 PM

I wonder how many of the "returnable" books will be "lost" or "damaged" in shipment back to PA? Or if the checks will be "lost in the mail." Or maybe the authors won't get actual checks*, just a credit for future shipments? Will PA hire an extra person to be in charge of the returns? After all, rumor has it that sometimes the record keeping for royalties are . . . well, you know.

Disclaimer: I have no basis for assuming that any or all of the above conditions might happen. I was just wondering.

*Did PA actually make clear that they would issue checks for the books returned? Or did they just say they'll "accept" returns?

DaveKuzminski

01-05-2009, 05:51 PM

Gosh, if PA accepts the returns, will those then be put into a warehouse as inventory? Should be interesting to see PA do that and then have to pay taxes on the inventory because of the ruling from Thor Power Tools vs. IRS.

Hmmm, maybe PA intends to build a recycling plant so they can recover and reuse the pulp from those books? I wonder how many sales they'll need to make that happen?

James D. Macdonald

01-05-2009, 06:11 PM

Of course, if that happens, they'll have to delete the wording on their website that states they don't charge their authors a penny.

PA: We don't charge authors a penny!

Author: What's this $10 fee, then?

PA: That isn't a penny, that's 1,000 pennies!

Restocking? They're going to toss those books into a Dumpster in Frederick.

Author buys 30 books at $24.95, 50% discount. PA's income: $374.25 PA's cost: $90

Shipping costs are paid by author, and may be a profit center to PA, since shipping actually costs less than they charge. But let's just say (to keep the example simple), that their shipping charges are honest (Ha!). Cost to PA: $0

So far, PA has a profit of $284.25.

Time passes. Author manages to sell 10 copies, and returns 20. Author pays shipping; cost to PA, $0. PA refunds $249.50 but charges "restocking fee" of $49.90. Profit to PA $84.65, but note that they get to keep the entire $284.25 in their bank account, earning interest for them, for up to six months (assuming that their record keeping is up to tracking the payments owed to the authors, and assuming that they don't decide to end the "experiment" in August, two weeks before royalties are figured, so Sorry, Charlie, No Refunds After All).

The returned books get send to the Frederick Landfill (if anyone orders a copy of that title later on, they'll just print up a new one and charge full price).

In effect, PA has sold 10 books that they wouldn't otherwise have sold, and gotten a substantial chunk of change to earn interest (or cover the February royalties--we've gotten used to PA pulling some bizarre fund-raising scheme just before royalties are supposed to be posted).

PA is betting that few of their authors will be able to part with their "babies," anyway.

Afinerosesheis

01-05-2009, 06:52 PM

roncouch

01-05-2009, 07:06 PM

Has anyone considered the toxic waste runoff that would be produced by a PA books landfill? Sounds like a job for Erin Brokovich.

PVish

01-05-2009, 09:31 PM

I think they said they'd put it in the royalties checks. =/

So, if an author isn't entitled to a royalty check, or PA forgets to send one. . . ?

cynrad22

01-06-2009, 12:01 AM

We are pretty much screwed! You know they will find some fault with the books we try to send back, so they have us there. We can’t see in the mail what happens to the books and neither can they, however… They have done nothing but lie cheat and steal so far, so I would be very interested to hear from someone who actually got the full amount back to them in march. They will figure out some bull***t story as to why they can not accept them, then when the author tells them they were delivered to him all curled up and the binding coming off, they will get nasty with said author. I can almost see it already.
Once a scammer always a scammer. As for this “trial run”, whatever.

James D. Macdonald

01-06-2009, 12:10 AM

We are pretty much screwed! You know they will find some fault with the books we try to send back, so they have us there.

You mean something like the covers curling?

BenPanced

01-06-2009, 12:59 AM

The pages falling out?

cynrad22

01-06-2009, 01:00 AM

Yeah, everyone of mine have curled up. I am not the only one that has had this problem. Some of the glue is comming off of the binding as well. Pretty crappy work if you want my opinion.

Afinerosesheis

01-06-2009, 01:05 AM

The books I got in 06' were actually fairly good quality, both the author copies and the ones I bought. The covers still do not curl. So that tells me they may have started out on the right foot as far as book construction, but sounds like it's different now.

Don Davidson

01-06-2009, 01:06 AM

PA is in trouble. That's clear. Between the economy and more and more people wising up about their devious tactics, they've given new meaning to the word "desperation." They're hemorrhaging money at an alarming rate. What's also amazing is the discontent found on new boards popping up that are populated by the PA oldtimers.

At no time in their history has PA thrown so much crap at their authors, in just this past year.

Do we see/smell a major collapse?

Or how could it possibly get any worse than this?

Tri

How I wish this were true, but I'm skeptical. PA is clearly trying to pump up sales--and maybe sales are lagging--but I don't know that it means they are in trouble. Are they laying off any workers? Or cutting back on expenses? Still, I would be delighted if PA went under, since it might mean I would get the rights to my book back.

Afinerosesheis

01-06-2009, 01:10 AM

How I wish this were true, but I'm skeptical. PA is clearly trying to pump up sales--and maybe sales are lagging--but I don't know that it means they are in trouble. Are they laying off any workers? Or cutting back on expenses? Still, I would be delighted if PA went under, since it might mean I would get the rights to my book back.

It would be nice to see PA finally get a good spanking, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. There are too many writers out there who are totally uneducated about the publishing industry (as I once was), and who have fresh hopes and dreams of which PA can feed off of.

JulieB

01-06-2009, 01:27 AM

M.R.J. Le Blanc

01-06-2009, 01:33 AM

It would be nice to see PA finally get a good spanking, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. There are too many writers out there who are totally uneducated about the publishing industry (as I once was), and who have fresh hopes and dreams of which PA can feed off of.

Still, with things being a little unsure right now with the economy I'm sure those new authors still aren't going to be buying bulk like PA authors once did. People seem to be taking more care about what they spend and where they spend it. Yeah, you make still get those who'll throw a lot of money buying their own books, but I think the people not buying is starting to outweigh those that are. Those few that do buy isn't going to do much if the majority aren't. And we all know the expensive tastes of the Stooges. Eventually things are going to start getting repo'd.

PVish

01-06-2009, 02:54 AM

Regarding the unsure state of the economy, one of the PAMB regulars posts a long article (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=28720), a Drudge report about the state of publishing, to which Frenchie replies: So to answer your question [name redacted], you will find that most businesses who have survived the storm, whether it is the publishing or Aflacks or any other kinds, are the ones like P.A. who from the beguining had good business acumen and judgement .
And now it would behoove the newbies here who are whining about the cut back at P.A. to think about that and pray our Publisher will survive -- for all of our benefits!

Cut back at PA? Anyone know the details about that?

Meanwhile, the mind boggles.

Queen of Swords

01-06-2009, 02:57 AM

Way to win friends and influence people there.

DaveKuzminski

01-06-2009, 03:48 AM

Regarding the unsure state of the economy, one of the PAMB regulars posts a long article (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=28720), a Drudge report about the state of publishing, to which Frenchie replies:

Cut back at PA? Anyone know the details about that?

Meanwhile, the mind boggles.

I have heard a rumor from a reliable source that PA did layoff some employees just before Christmas.

Marie Pacha

01-06-2009, 03:51 AM

I heard they let some people go in December. I don't know how many.

Afinerosesheis

01-06-2009, 04:54 AM

Regarding the unsure state of the economy, one of the PAMB regulars posts a long article (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=28720), a Drudge report about the state of publishing, to which Frenchie replies:

Cut back at PA? Anyone know the details about that?

Meanwhile, the mind boggles.

Those two, Frenchie and the OP are two of the meanest, sneakiest souls on the PAMB. They gang up on noobs and as you see in this post, smack them down quickly for saying anything even remotely anti-PA. I had run-ins with them and there came my final banning. Guess I owe them a thank you?

DaveKuzminski

01-06-2009, 05:24 AM

Apparently Rudy isn't concerned about posting a copyrighted article without permission. That ought to make PA look real good to writers who want their own written work protected.

cynrad22

01-06-2009, 05:30 AM

Still, with things being a little unsure right now with the economy I'm sure those new authors still aren't going to be buying bulk like PA authors once did. People seem to be taking more care about what they spend and where they spend it. Yeah, you make still get those who'll throw a lot of money buying their own books, but I think the people not buying is starting to outweigh those that are. Those few that do buy isn't going to do much if the majority aren't. And we all know the expensive tastes of the Stooges. Eventually things are going to start getting repo'd.

I am that happy few that do not buy my book. If that meanS that they are going under because of my little action...GREAT! :D

cynrad22

01-06-2009, 05:42 AM

Those two, Frenchie and the OP are two of the meanest, sneakiest souls on the PAMB. They gang up on noobs and as you see in this post, smack them down quickly for saying anything even remotely anti-PA. I had run-ins with them and there came my final banning. Guess I owe them a thank you?

PAMB....never tried it. I found this sight and didnt see the sense in trying. Now.... :Shrug: Whats the worst that can happen? Oh i know, i will get banned from the board. Ahhhhhhh, if only my well worded message would reach even one person... oh to dream. Hey by the way....
Any one get an email from smccord? He emailed me some time ago. and said some things i am on board with, but since being burned before by PA, and getting more than helpfull info from all of you, i thought i woud pose the question to you to see if i was alone. A girl cant be too carefull these days...lol :)

Afinerosesheis

01-06-2009, 06:55 AM

PAMB....never tried it. I found this sight and didnt see the sense in trying. Now.... :Shrug: Whats the worst that can happen? Oh i know, i will get banned from the board. Ahhhhhhh, if only my well worded message would reach even one person... oh to dream. Hey by the way....
Any one get an email from smccord? He emailed me some time ago. and said some things i am on board with, but since being burned before by PA, and getting more than helpfull info from all of you, i thought i woud pose the question to you to see if i was alone. A girl cant be too carefull these days...lol :)

Never got an e-mail from an smccord. Don't think I've ever heard of them.

I wish I'd found this place first. I remember being on the PAMB and every now and then this board was brought up and B A D things were said. Scared me away from here for awhile. That is until I puked up the kool-aid, then I came here and felt free.

I did make a couple of friends on the PAMB that I am still in contact with today. It was worth a little time there to get to know them and also to learn the truth.

Don Davidson

01-06-2009, 07:21 AM

Is there a reversion clause in the contract that will return your rights in that event?

No. Paragraph 26 of the contract says the contract "shall be binding on, and inure to the benefit of . . . successors and assigns of Publisher. . . ." I would think that if PA went out of business, someone could, theoretically, buy the publishing rights to PA's books and then hold the same contractual rights now held by PA. But on the other hand, who would want the publishing rights to PA's books unless they intend to adopt PA's business model? If no one bought PA's rights, I would think the rights would then revert to the author--which would probably be the most likely outcome if PA went belly up. (Cue Beach Boys music: "Wouldnt it be nice. . . .?")

JulieB

01-06-2009, 07:43 AM

Ouch. INAL*, but if you they do go under and you don't get your rights back in writing, I don't think you can do anything with your book until the contract period runs out. There are folks here better versed in the legalities of such a think who can better answer that.

* And I don't play one on TV.

PVish

01-06-2009, 07:44 AM

From the horse's, er, mouth (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=28720). Infocenter chimes in:

Thank you, Rudy.
PublishAmerica is arguably in a better position than just about any other traditional press to face today's challenges. Finances are in great health, the company has always been debt-free, operations are lean, our product is as popular as ever, and last year PublishAmerica grew bigger than ever before.

The secret of our success is no secret: PublishAmerica provides an absolutely free service for our almost 35,000 authors, who bring just as many small niche markets with them. If an economy wants to hurt an enterprise such as ours, it must first fatally hurt the worlds that spin around our authors. That's not happening.

Our authors still write great prose. They still are experts in their fields. They are looked upon with deserved awe and respect. The universes in which they move may consist of a few hundred or a few thousand individuals, but our authors do have something to offer to them, to entertain, to teach, something that can be found nowhere else. As long as they write their words, PublishAmerica will print and distribute them. We serve those micro niches, we connect them, we bring our authors' words to their readers.

It's apparently true that the big commercial houses have been losing readers. PublishAmerica however has found new readers. With each new author we add new readers -- we have never added more authors than we did in 2008, and we never sold more books, too. At higher sales prices than before, for good measure. When others slashed their prices in order to be competitive, PublishAmerica raised them. We were confident that our readers would be willing to pay what it takes to obtain the quality works of our authors, and we were right.

As a result, we sell more books, written by more authors, at higher prices, yielding higher royalties, and leaving our organization on solid grounds. We enjoy a uniquely high author loyalty: each day, forty percent of our new book contracts go to authors who already have one or more books in print with PublishAmerica. We don't know how many authors actually complete a second book, but reportedly it's less than half. This suggests that virtually every PublishAmerica author who wrote a second book stays with us.

Surprised? Not if you read the papers. There is pretty much no newspaper left that hasn't reported on yet another PublishAmerica author. We aren't big on big-name celebrities, but man, do we have a big supply of grassroots heroes to share. They are our core strength, our tens of thousands of hard-working, successful, proud authors. They live on Main Street, and they serve Main Street niches.

As long as PublishAmerica does what its name says it does, publishing America, we're on Main Street. That's where the nation's backbone is. A spine that is as steeled and solid as it ever was.

Anybody up for a line-by-line on this one?

Mel

01-06-2009, 07:56 AM

Can I throw up now?

DamaNegra

01-06-2009, 07:57 AM

It's apparently true that the big commercial houses have been losing readers. PublishAmerica however has found new readers. With each new author we add new readers -- we have never added more authors than we did in 2008, and we never sold more books, too. At higher sales prices than before, for good measure. When others slashed their prices in order to be competitive, PublishAmerica raised them. We were confident that our readers would be willing to pay what it takes to obtain the quality works of our authors, and we were right.

(Bolding mine)
:Wha:

merrihiatt

01-06-2009, 08:07 AM

This is the best description of PA I have heard and they said it themselves:
As long as they write their words, PublishAmerica will print and distribute them.
Notice they don't say that they are a publisher. No. They state the truth -- we print and distribute. Maybe that should be their tag line rather than the "traditional publisher" garbage.

triceretops

01-06-2009, 08:51 AM

Dear gawd. The board sees this as confirmation that the big commercial houses are, and have always been, the enemy of the successful 'niche' author. What infoblow is really saying is that more PA authors have bought more of their own books in record numbers. That is why PA is solvent--they've never screwed more people than they have in the recent past.

Mr. B. found the koolaid vat again and took a heady draft. Then it was followed up with a reality slap--the one that brought back that dazed and empty Stepford Scribe look. Now everything is right with the publishing world. You walk in a drunken stupor and you have a flaming handprint across your face.

Tri

M.R.J. Le Blanc

01-06-2009, 09:27 AM

Thank you, Rudy.
PublishAmerica is arguably in a better position than just about any other traditional press to face today's challenges.
Well duh. They're one of the few 'traditional press' since they don't exactly exist.

Finances are in great health, the company has always been debt-free, operations are lean, our product is as popular as ever, and last year PublishAmerica grew bigger than ever before.
They couldn't afford to be in the toilet. How would Miranda pay for her horses?

The secret of our success is no secret: PublishAmerica provides an absolutely free service for our almost 35,000 authors, who bring just as many small niche markets with them.
Oh, so that's what they're calling customers now. Niche markets. Good to know.

If an economy wants to hurt an enterprise such as ours, it must first fatally hurt the worlds that spin around our authors. That's not happening.
Either the Stooges are flat-out lying, or they're deluded.

Our authors still write great prose. While I don't doubt there are some PA authors who could be pretty talented, you'd have to have a low standard of great to make such a blanket statement. They still are experts in their fields. Every PA writer's an expert in their field? They are looked upon with deserved awe and respect. By each other. The universes in which they move may consist of a few hundred or a few thousand individuals, but our authors do have something to offer to them, to entertain, to teach, something that can be found nowhere else. Yeah, they're called manuscripts that have never seen the desk of a real editor. As long as they write their words, PublishAmerica will print and distribute them. Bolded by me. PA authors, read that carefully. Nothing about being a publisher. Very very telling. We serve those micro niches, we connect them, we bring our authors' words to their readers. Who 9 times out of 10 ends up being solely the author.

It's apparently true that the big commercial houses have been losing readers. Really? I must have missed that memo. PublishAmerica however has found new readers. You mean authors. With each new author we add new readers -- we have never added more authors than we did in 2008, and we never sold more books, too. Yes, because more authors equals more people to buy books. They're the only ones that tend not to get the runaround unless the books are for signings or other promotion. At higher sales prices than before, for good measure. When others slashed their prices in order to be competitive, PublishAmerica raised them. ....buh?!?!?! This doesn't even make logical sense! Who do you think customers are going to buy off Amazon if it came down to the overpriced PA book or an already competitive book that's been further reduced? Let's even say for sake of arguement both are of the same quality writing and calibre. I'll tell you who customers will buy - the cheaper one. Why? Because no one in their right mind would pay for an overpriced book. Unless they had money to burn. We were confident that our readers would be willing to pay what it takes to obtain the quality works of our authors, and we were right. Correction: PA was confident that their authors would be willing to pay what it takes.

As a result, we sell more books, written by more authors, at higher prices, yielding higher royalties, and leaving our organization on solid grounds. Yes, because the only one seeing the majority of those 'royalties' is PA. We enjoy a uniquely high author loyalty: each day, forty percent of our new book contracts go to authors who already have one or more books in print with PublishAmerica. Thanks to the crap they shovel at their customers...I mean authors. We don't know how many authors actually complete a second book, but reportedly it's less than half. I'd like to know what reporter they've been talking to. This suggests that virtually every PublishAmerica author who wrote a second book stays with us. Very vague mathematics here. I'd like to see how this conclusion was reached.

Surprised? Not if you read the papers. You mean the funny papers? There is pretty much no newspaper left that hasn't reported on yet another PublishAmerica author. They probably just did so because the author wouldn't stop harassing them, and printing the damn thing was cheaper and easier than restraining orders. We aren't big on big-name celebrities, but man, do we have a big supply of grassroots heroes to share. Really? Name one. They are our core strength, our tens of thousands of hard-working, successful, proud authors. So everybody's a celebrity huh? Funny how I never hear the name of a PA author outside of the PAMB unless they finally had enough of the kool-aid and came here. They live on Main Street, and they serve Main Street niches. Bad books - it's what's for dinner.

As long as PublishAmerica does what its name says it does, publishing America, we're on Main Street. I've never seen you on any Main Street. That's where the nation's backbone is. A spine that is as steeled and solid as it ever was. Ah, patriotism. Only good when it doesn't come from crooks.

Christine N.

01-06-2009, 02:13 PM

The secret of our success is no secret: PublishAmerica provides an absolutely free service

Yeah, and nowhere else is publishing called a 'service' to the authors...except vanity publishing.

And cutbacks? Sure, they cut out giving away author copies. Cut out 'editing' options.

Stacia Kane

01-06-2009, 02:36 PM

Okay, I've never done one of these before...I don't think mine is as imaginative or finteresting as M.R.J.'s, but I'll give it a go:

PublishAmerica is arguably in a better position than just about any other traditional press to face today's challenges.

Because real publishers have to sell books to the public; we sell ours just to our authors and their families, who are guaranteed to buy at least a few copies.

Finances are in great health, the company has always been debt-free, operations are lean, our product is as popular as ever, and last year PublishAmerica grew bigger than ever before.

Because we have to keep signing new suckers Authors every minute, as our old ones wise up.

The secret of our success is no secret: PublishAmerica provides an absolutely free service for our almost 35,000 authors, who bring just as many small niche markets with them.

Translation: The secret of our success is selling our books back to our authors, each one of whom is pretty much the only market for their books.

If an economy wants to hurt an enterprise such as ours, it must first fatally hurt the worlds that spin around our authors. That's not happening.

If an economy wants to hurt an enterprise such as ours, it must first fatally destroy our authors' abilites to buy their own books from us. That's not happening, because if they don't buy their own books they will never see a single copy.

The universes in which they move may consist of a few hundred or a few thousand individuals, but our authors do have something to offer to them, to entertain, to teach, something that can be found nowhere else.

The universes in which they move may consist of only a few dozen people, even, but we all know your mom is going to buy copies of your book, and so are you--no matter how broke you are. And what you offer the people who buy your book is pride in you; the people who love you will buy your book (from you, after you buy your own copies) whether they want to read it or not. Which is the way PA makes its money.

As long as they write their words, PublishAmerica will print and distribute them. We serve those micro niches, we connect them, we bring our authors' words to their readers.

You, your family and friends are certainly a "micro niche". And you, your family and friends are the only market PA "serves".

It's apparently true that the big commercial houses have been losing readers. PublishAmerica however has found new readers. With each new author we add new readers -- we have never added more authors than we did in 2008, and we never sold more books, too.

Think there's a connection there, between signing more authors and selling more books? Think HARD. Who is buying those books?

At higher sales prices than before, for good measure. When others slashed their prices in order to be competitive, PublishAmerica raised them. We were confident that our readers would be willing to pay what it takes to obtain the quality works of our authors, and we were right.

When others slashed their prices in order to entice the general public to buy their books, we raised ours, knowing you would still buy as many copies as you could. And you did.

As a result, we sell more books, written by more authors, at higher prices, yielding higher royalties, and leaving our organization on solid grounds.

I seriously doubt ALL of PA's books sold in a year exceeds the number of copies sold by real publishers--even by a single real publisher--in a year. 30,000 authors...let's say each buys a hundred copies...Anybody here think Random House sells less than 300,000 books in a year, over all of its titles? Or Simon & Schuster?

We enjoy a uniquely high author loyalty: each day, forty percent of our new book contracts go to authors who already have one or more books in print with PublishAmerica. We don't know how many authors actually complete a second book, but reportedly it's less than half. This suggests that virtually every PublishAmerica author who wrote a second book stays with us.

This is not only ridiculously specious math, it's specious reasoning. Who cares how many of your authors stay with you for a second book? All that tells you is they either haven't thrown up the Kool-Aid or they aren't able to get a deal with a real house. Heck, anecdotal evidence from the PAMB alone shows a large proportion of PAers go on to honest self-publishing (and yes, I'm aware that anecdotal evidence from the PAMB is as specious as the math and reasoning above.)

Surprised? Not if you read the papers. There is pretty much no newspaper left that hasn't reported on yet another PublishAmerica author.

Yes, but that essentially means nothing. Local papers did fawning stories on a certain David Gemmell plagiarist too; does that mean she was legit? Or that features editors have space to fill and are desperate for subjects? You decide.

We aren't big on big-name celebrities, but man, do we have a big supply of grassroots heroes to share. They are our core strength, our tens of thousands of hard-working, successful, proud authors. They live on Main Street, and they serve Main Street niches.

Okay, the first sentence is actually kind of a nice thing to say. I can't really snark on that. But the rest of it...once again, the translation of "Main Street niches" is "You, your friends and family."

As long as PublishAmerica does what its name says it does, publishing America, we're on Main Street. That's where the nation's backbone is. A spine that is as steeled and solid as it ever was.

As long as you're willing to drink the Kool-Aid and buy your own books, PA will continue to spit them out. They're getting rich off your dreams while you flounder in the gutter; they thank their gods for your steely spine because it means you're not ready to give up your dreams, which means they get to keep making money off you when it should be the other way around. They thank their gods for your steely spine because it means you believe your book can be the one that breaks out and succeeds, and you keep coming back.

So how'd I do? :)

M.R.J. Le Blanc

01-06-2009, 05:25 PM

I'd say you did pretty darn good :) I enjoyed that read

James D. Macdonald

01-06-2009, 09:33 PM

I would think that if PA went out of business, someone could, theoretically, buy the publishing rights to PA's books and then hold the same contractual rights now held by PA. But on the other hand, who would want the publishing rights to PA's books unless they intend to adopt PA's business model?

When Commonwealth went bust (remember that?) all the rights were bought by a third party who wrote to the authors and said words to the effect of "Pay me $$$ for the rights to your book or I'll publish 'em myself and pay you nothing at all."

Remember, if someone buys PA's assets, you had a contract with PA, not with the new rights holder. That new person can do anything his little heart desires with those rights.

Afinerosesheis

01-06-2009, 09:37 PM

When Commonwealth went bust (remember that?) all the rights were bought by a third party who wrote to the authors and said words to the effect of "Pay me $$$ for the rights to your book or I'll publish 'em myself and pay you nothing at all."

Remember, if someone buys PA's assets, you had a contract with PA, not with the new rights holder. That new person can do anything his little heart desires with those rights.

It really doesn't make much of a difference, does it? Whether PA has our work or some third rater, our books are still are not selling.

JulieB

01-06-2009, 10:09 PM

When Commonwealth went bust (remember that?) all the rights were bought by a third party who wrote to the authors and said words to the effect of "Pay me $$$ for the rights to your book or I'll publish 'em myself and pay you nothing at all."

Remember, if someone buys PA's assets, you had a contract with PA, not with the new rights holder. That new person can do anything his little heart desires with those rights.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why you need a contract with a decent reversion clause.

Unimportant

01-06-2009, 10:20 PM

Remember, if someone buys PA's assets, you had a contract with PA, not with the new rights holder. That new person can do anything his little heart desires with those rights.

James, do you mean that if one publisher gets bought up by another, the second press gets the rights (print, electronic, whatever) to the titles the first one had contracted, but is not obligated to pay the royalties etc as they were originally contracted?

M.R.J. Le Blanc

01-06-2009, 11:04 PM

If PA ever goes under, and if I ever had the money I'd buy up those assests and give the writers back all their rights to their books. Just terminate the contracts. I'll even have a big public burning so everyone could get in on it :)

JulieB

01-06-2009, 11:44 PM

The SFWA model contracts (http://www.sfwa.org/contracts/) provide some good examples of reversion and bankruptcy/insolvency clauses.

kullervo

01-07-2009, 01:05 AM

The SFWA model contracts (http://www.sfwa.org/contracts/) provide some good examples of reversion and bankruptcy/insolvency clauses.

And are badly in need of updating.

inkkognito

01-07-2009, 01:09 AM

But doesn't a bankruptcy render the contract pointless, in which case the clause would be a moot point? I thought that at that point it all goes into the hands of the bankruptcy court.

merrihiatt

01-07-2009, 02:11 AM

I apologize in advance for the length of this post; however, I feel it is an important example of how PA has communicated with me.

I sent my fourth round of three separate e-mails to PA asking for the rights to my book back, for PA to delete a “testimonial” they state I made where my name was misspelled and to ask why I had been banned from the PA message board.

I received a response to list my reasons for wanting my book rights returned. I complied, (for the fifth time -- thank you, cut and paste feature!). I received a prompt response which I have posted below. PA's answers are in bold under each section.

I will make no comments on this interaction; however, if you are a PA author, or are considering signing with PA, is this the kind of interaction you would want with your publisher?

In the note PA sent me back, in the subject line, it said, "Merri Hiatt: compares herself to Nora Roberts" (bolding mine)

Hi Mxxxxxx,

Thank you for your response. I have sent my reasons several times before, but will gladly do so again.

The reasons I would like the publishing rights to my book, TITLE DELETED BY MERRI, returned are:

1) There is no demand for my book (as noted in paragraph #22 of my contract with PublishAmerica). My friends and family will not be purchasing my book. Most people do not purchase books online unless they can read several of the pages to get a feel for the author's writing style. PublishAmerica holds the digital rights to my book and doesn't allow the "look inside" feature on Amazon.com, so no one can read a few pages before deciding whether to purchase a book or not. I will not be purchasing any books from PublishAmerica. Therefore, the demand for my book will be zero in the future, just as it is zero today.
Maybe so, maybe not. We'll see. Either way, this is the publisher's call to make, not the author's.

2) The retail price of the book is too high. I won't pay $24.95 for a book by an unknown author and don't believe other people will either. Friends and family have told me that if my book was priced more reasonably, they would consider purchasing a copy. But when they can buy a Nora Roberts book for $6.99 and mine (an unknown author) retails at $24.95, my book doesn't stand a chance.
We disagree.

3) Two of the Barnes and Noble stores in my area have told me they will not stock my book. I have learned that this is not an uncommon problem with print on demand books and with books printed by PublishAmerica.
Their loss.

4) I have been told by several bookstore managers that PublishAmerica books are of inferior quality (riddled with errors and are poorly constructed) and that they will not stock books printed by PublishAmerica. These same bookstore managers have noted that PublishAmerica's return policy, low discount and high retail price make it almost impossible for them to sell a PublishAmerica book.
Really? In that case, Barnes and Noble must be really stupid for placing orders for PublishAmerica books 800 times in the last two weeks of December. Other bookstores ordered an additional 1,500 times in the same two weeks.

5) I understand that PublishAmerica's business model is to sell books to their authors. PublishAmerica makes books available to bookstores and then discourages those sales by pricing the books too high, offering a low discount, charging a restocking fee and charging shipping/handling. All of this does nothing to promote bookstores purchasing a PublishAmerica printed book.
You misunderstand.

6) I have received numerous solicitations to buy my own books. PublishAmerica targets their authors as their main audience, not the public. Because of this fact, I can guarantee there will not be a demand for my book because I will not be purchasing any more copies. As I stated above, my friends and family will not be purchasing my book. If they won't be buying it and I won't be buying it and it won't be available in any bookstores and almost no one purchases a book online that they can't read a few pages of. There is no audience for my book.
That's correct, just in case you're one of the 8,000 PublishAmerica authors who elected to have copies of their own book on hand last year. There's nothing wrong, unethical, or immoral about being one of those authors, you know.

7) All of my posts and my access to the PublishAmerica message board have been deleted without an explanation, even though I have contacted author support four times asking why. I don't understand why there has been no follow-through explanation of this strange behavior by PublishAmerica.
True, nor do we owe any of our authors such explanation.

In light of all of the above, given that you have provided us with no convincing reason to cease the publication of your book just weeks after its release, your termination request has been denied.

I appreciate the time you have taken to read this e-mail and am glad
to have someone respond to my questions. Thank you!

Merri Hiatt

I sent this response:

Dear Mxxxxxx (or whomever replied as there was no name in the e-mail),

I was not rude at any point in my e-mail to you and am surprised that you have chosen to be rude in response. If I, as you claim, have "misunderstood," I would appreciate knowing how I have misunderstood.

Just for clarification, I didn't compare myself to Nora Roberts, I compared a book selling for the price of a Nora Roberts book. Stating that a well-known author's book is priced significantly lower than a PublishAmerica book by an unknown author. I was trying to point out the discrepancy in price, not that I compared myself, or my writing ability, to Nora Roberts.

Is there someone else at PublishAmerica that I might communicate with who will take my questions seriously and with the respect they deserve?

I appreciate your prompt reply.

Merri Hiatt