The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

[tlblack]

burgy61 - If you don't get a reply from PA in what you consider a reasonable time, send them a certified letter. They don't like getting those, but they did reply to me by e-mail when I sent them one requesting my contract be cancelled. Of course their replies were mean spirited and they did everything except answer my questions, but it only took 10 days for me to receive the contract cancellation letter in the mail.

[Jersey Chick]

I feel foolish but, how do I attach a return receipt to my emails?

Thanks tlblack, If I don't hear from them by Thursday I will do just that.

Don't feel foolish - I drove people nuts when I was switching default mailboxes :D

Anyway - I use Windows Mail (came with Vista - I don't know if it's standard, but it is an upgrade from Outlook, I think). All you do is, write your email, then go up to the Tools menu and click on it. It'll give you a drop down menu, select "request read receipt", and you should be set. It'll set it for every email, so if you don't want it for any others, you'll have to go back and un-click it.

However, when I did a test run, it gave me the choice of not having the receipt returned (kind of defeats the purpose, but you never know), so it isn't foolproof. If PA can and does ignore it, you're best bet is a certified letter.

Hopes this helps at least a little! :)

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Anyway - I use Windows Mail (came with Vista - I don't know if it's standard, but it is an upgrade from Outlook, I think).
It's supposed to be an upgrade from MSN Mail
All you do is, write your email, then go up to the Tools menu and click on it. It'll give you a drop down menu, select "request read receipt", and you should be set. It'll set it for every email, so if you don't want it for any others, you'll have to go back and un-click it.

However, when I did a test run, it gave me the choice of not having the receipt returned (kind of defeats the purpose, but you never know), so it isn't foolproof. If PA can and does ignore it, you're best bet is a certified letter.I have my mail set that way - to not send any receipts automatically. That way, I don't let spammers know that I have a valid address. Also, it allows me to ingore people who think that they deserve a read/delivery receipt.

[burgy61]

It sure does, thanks Jersey.

[Jersey Chick]

I only use it when I've had previous miscommunications with someone due to lost emails, which used to happen a lot on both ends. I used to have Sprint's email, but then it became Embarq (which sucks, BTW), so I switched to the Windows mail. But I have to remember to set it, because I have it off normally. A cousin of mine uses it for every email she sends me and it drives me nuts because her emails are usually goofy forwards that I end up deleting anyway :)

[DaveKuzminski]

I asked a couple of places over the weekend. The local independent book seller, I think, thought I was playing a cruel hoax on them for even suggesting they order something from PA. Pretty funny (or sad depending on your point of view).

I should have considered this possibility. For anyone assisting in this, you're more than welcome to state that you're collecting this information for P&E. Of course, some will probably not know what Preditors & Editors is. If that's the case, you can state that P&E is an online media publication providing news and information within the publishing industry.

My thanks to all who are assisting in this. What this does is twofold. One, we're accumulating information about who carries PA books since PA doesn't give out that kind of information. Two, we're giving all those bookstores a free listing in P&E.

[tlblack]

Thanks tlblack, If I don't hear from them by Thursday I will do just that.

You're quite welcome. PA tends to ignore or block emails asking for contract cancellation. When you send a certified letter, you get a postcard back that lets you know someone at PA received it. Just state why you want out of the contract in your letter as well as give them any references regarding any breach of contract on their part. It will most likely get you some nastygrams by email, but at least you'll know that someone is finally paying attention. Good luck!

[JCT]

You're quite welcome. PA tends to ignore or block emails asking for contract cancellation. When you send a certified letter, you get a postcard back that lets you know someone at PA received it. Just state why you want out of the contract in your letter as well as give them any references regarding any breach of contract on their part. It will most likely get you some nastygrams by email, but at least you'll know that someone is finally paying attention. Good luck!

And when those nasty emails come, if the person can't spell, it's Miranda's work. If they can't punctuate, it's Larry.

[Berry]

I have my mail set that way - to not send any receipts automatically. That way, I don't let spammers know that I have a valid address. Also, it allows me to ingore people who think that they deserve a read/delivery receipt.

Me too. Also worth noting, is that there are literally hundreds of email reading programs out there, and not all of them implement "Return Receipts", and those that do may do so, um. creatively. If you send one and get a reply, your addressee probably opened the message, but if one doesn't come back you have no idea why not -- the email could be lost, the program may not support them, the user may have turned them off like Duncan or me, or the program may have tried to send a reply and botched it.

Bottom line is, you can't count on them.

[James D. Macdonald]

There's the trick where you embed a call for a little one-pixel-by-pixel white .gif somewhere in the body of the email, that you have stashed on your own server. That way you can see if the mail was opened, where it was opened, when it was opened, how many times it was opened, and if it was forwarded somewhere else (and opened there).

There are ways to defeat that, too, but it's an interesting technique.

[brianm]

I should have considered this possibility. For anyone assisting in this, you're more than welcome to state that you're collecting this information for P&E. Of course, some will probably not know what Preditors & Editors is. If that's the case, you can state that P&E is an online media publication providing news and information within the publishing industry.

My thanks to all who are assisting in this. What this does is twofold. One, we're accumulating information about who carries PA books since PA doesn't give out that kind of information. Two, we're giving all those bookstores a free listing in P&E.

When I made my two calls, I pretended I was considering signing with PA and was doing some checking on them before I signed the contract. I explained PA claimed their books could get placement on shelves in brick and mortars so long as I did my job in promoting the book to the bookstore manager.

I spoke to two different bookstores, B&N and Borders. Both asst. managers explained they were special order books, cash only with no refund. Period.

Email sent with particulars, Dave.

[Berry]

There's the trick where you embed a call for a little one-pixel-by-pixel white .gif somewhere in the body of the email, that you have stashed on your own server. That way you can see if the mail was opened, where it was opened, when it was opened, how many times it was opened, and if it was forwarded somewhere else (and opened there).

Even some quasi-legitimate services like Yahoo Groups do this. One thing I like about Thunderbird is it allows you to suppress image-loading unless the sender is in your address book. (or suppress it altogether).

[Jersey Chick]

OK - ya'll lost me with the email thing. I'm going back under my rock now...

[Duncan J Macdonald]

There's the trick where you embed a call for a little one-pixel-by-pixel white .gif somewhere in the body of the email, that you have stashed on your own server. That way you can see if the mail was opened, where it was opened, when it was opened, how many times it was opened, and if it was forwarded somewhere else (and opened there).

There are ways to defeat that, too, but it's an interesting technique.Which is why I have all my e-mails converted to plain ASCII text, and I automatically don't download .gif or .jpg, or any other graphics files. I see a placeholder with the name of the graphic file displayed inside <> marks.

[DaveKuzminski]

Proof (http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/warnpa09.htm) that PA files false police reports against authors.

[JerseyGirl1962]

Proof (http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/warnpa09.htm) that PA files false police reports against authors.

Dave,

Amazing, simply amazing (and not in a good way). I do like that the cop/detective told the person in question to quit dealing with PA directly and to go through his lawyer instead.

BTW, you might want to black-out the person's ss #.

~Nancy

[Marie Pacha]

Remarkable isn't it?

[JCT]

Hope you are ready for a flood PMs...many of us here work in the industry and/or have experience.

[Patricia]

Scary that the SS#, DOB, address, and name of that person is now on the WWW. What an opportunity for ID thieves. Is that personal info for real. So not cool.

[JulieB]

You might want to check out this thread here on AW:

How Real Publishing Works. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20586)

That should provide you with some useful information.

[concerned]

Funny that a site named Preditors and Editors is welcoming predators of a different sort by publishing an individual's personal information including ss#.

I understand the need to prove PA as a scam (because it is one), but that should never override common sense.

[CatSlave]

I'm sure Dave will fix it once he becomes aware of the problem.

[concerned]

I'm sure Dave will fix it once he becomes aware of the problem.

I'm sure he will. Hopefully, it hasn't already created problems.

[brianm]

Funny that a site named Preditors and Editors is welcoming predators of a different sort by publishing an individual's personal information including ss#.

I understand the need to prove PA as a scam (because it is one), but that should never override common sense.

It's just an oversight by Dave. I sent him a pm so that he would be aware of it and block it out.

Was it just the one ss# you saw or were there a number of them you noticed?

[brianm]

I have contacted B&N distribution about them carrying PA books. One of the reasons that I was given was, the5% discount short stocking or selling. Can someone explain this to me. Thanks

PA offers a 5% discount to bookstores like B&N to purchase the book and place it on their shelves. The industry norm is 40-60% discount to bookstores who want to buy a book and place it on their shelves.

In a nut shell, brick and mortars can't make any money by selling PA books, so they don't stock PA books.

Additionally, if the book does not sell and the bookstore wants to return the book, PA charges a 10% restocking fee.

B&N can purchase the book direct from PA for a larger discount but then the book is no longer returnable. Additionally, PA is notorious for not answering the order desk phone and PA takes forever to send orders that have been placed.

[Saundra Julian]

Burgy,
Don't play PA's head games. Keep asking for your release. The more dialogue you have with them the longer it takes and no matter what facts you present, you are wrong, according to author support.

[Sheryl Nantus]

true - if you talk to a B&N rep, they're "misinformed" - if you talk to anyone reputable they're "misinformed" or "not competent to make that statement", etc etc etc.

don't fall for their mind games - you want OUT of your contract and you want it NOW.

period.

no negotiations - and do NOT agree to a gag order!

[DaveKuzminski]

I missed seeing the SSN earlier. I've just uploaded a new file with the SSN blocked out. The DOB is also blacked out now.

[Patricia]

Dave, shouldn't the DOB and address be blacked out too? I know most of us are out there anyway, but why make it easier?

[brianm]

true - if you talk to a B&N rep, they're "misinformed" - if you talk to anyone reputable they're "misinformed" or "not competent to make that statement", etc etc etc.

don't fall for their mind games - you want OUT of your contract and you want it NOW.

period.

no negotiations - and do NOT agree to a gag order!

Sound advice. Agree to disagree with PA and ask for your release without the gag clause.

They can't do anything but drag this out until September when you are required to produce the manuscript, which you have not completed and do not intend to complete for many years. :)

[DaveKuzminski]

Some writers have discovered that they get a faster response from PA in the form of a termination when they set up a web site posting their letters and those from PA.

Seems that each web site expounding upon the virtues of PA hurts them even more in the number of new victims they can catch and drops them farther from the top of any searches through the search engines for PublishAmerica.

If you make a web site, be sure to use "PublishAmerica," "Publish America," and "PA" so that the search engines will be sure to catch in in each of those permutations.

[Glenda]

Burgy,
Sandra and Dave are right. Also let them know you will not buy any of your books and you have already contacted your family and friends and they will not buy them either.

[DaveKuzminski]

Another reason not to accept a gag order is because PA doesn't abide by the one that is mutually placed on them. They only want it to shut you up because they know most writers they deal with play by the rules.

PA doesn't play by the rules.

That's why you hit them hard when and where you can because that's the only thing they respect and fear.

Hi, Willem, Larry, Miranda, Alice, and Vic. Hmmm, sounds like a movie title. How do you all like the documentation about the false police report PA made that we posted? Nifty, right? We figure that ought to cause a number of new writers to pause and look at you with a bit more caution than they might otherwise use. Have a nice day, y'all. You don't have many left before you visit Camp Fed. ;)

[jamiehall]

Proof (http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/warnpa09.htm) that PA files false police reports against authors.

Thanks! This needs to be displayed quite prominently.

[Saundra Julian]

It's not just your “big” mouth, Burgy. PA wants a guarantee that your friends, family and agents won't talk either! Now, how the hell do they think you can censor other people? If you even go on a web site, such as this, you would be fined a ridiculous amount of money...something like 5000.00 per episode!

I know this, because the first release they sent me had a big ole gag order in it. I informed them it was not acceptable and continued my email barrage.

[DaveKuzminski]

It's not just your “big” mouth, Burgy. PA wants a guarantee that your friends, family and agents won't talk either! Now, how the hell do they think you can censor other people? If you even go on a web site, such as this, you would be fined a ridiculous amount of money...something like 5000.00 per episode!


This is true, but they don't apply the site visitation situation in reverse meaning that any of their writers or sockpuppets can post bad things about you on their web site as well in other places.

[ResearchGuy]

If I use these permutations in my web site can I get in trouble for using them? . . .
No.

--Ken

[Patricia]

Burgy--I think most of us who got our release got the "gag order" contract first. If not twice, at least once. I got two. I insisted that I would in no way go for it, and told them I was pursuing arbitration. I received my release contract shortly after I told them I was going to arbitration. One thing for sure, they are finding out that arbitration is not in their best interest and it's best to let the author go.
Don't give up. Keep demanding your rights back.

[Saundra Julian]

Yes, they did! I were released in March of '06...:hooray:

[James D. Macdonald]

Would one of you published authors mind answering this question, how does your publisher calculate royalties? I have read that it is normal for them to use cover price not net price, is this true?

This is absolutely true.

While you can find some smaller publishers who want to use net, my advice is to walk away from their contract if they aren't willing to negotiate. Net vs. List is a deal-breaker for me. Royalties calculated on net is another attempt to boost profits by taking money out of the author's pocket.

(Note: for certain subrights (e.g. bookclub, deep-discount) you'll find net even in legitimate contracts from major players, But that's special circumstances.)

[Patricia]

Burgy--I wasn't suggesting arbitration for you. I was relating my experience before my release. Sometimes the info can be good for others who might need it. Sorry I wasn't clear. :)

[Diane]

Dear Support,

I am glad that you don't believe that a author should have to buy their own books, I don't plan on buying any. The two books you offered me are all I need, one for each of my boys. I am also glad that a list of names is optional, the people that I would have sent you have already read the book. They were the ones who read it and gave me their opinions so I can make it better.


From everything I've gotten from reading the NEPAT and Son of NEPAT, this is the only thing they care about. I think you're probably wasting your time sending them emails, but if you send them anymore, just say very clearly: "I will not buy any of my book. None of my friends and family will buy this book. I will actively tell people not to buy my book. Release me from my contract now."

And just say it over and over again. The A word (Arbitration) doesn't hurt either.

[mar16ak8]

I cant believe what im hearing about PA...did I just crawl out of a rock or what....how come I didnt hear about it before.... im publishing with then right now and im soo bummed.....theres got 2 be a way 2 get out of it....I havent sent them my final manuscript yet.... pleeeaaase tell me there is something I can do...i dont want 2 send them my final mauscript nowing what will happen to my book......need some advice please....

[DaveKuzminski]

Don't send it. Email them to state that you're not purchasing any of your books no matter what and that your friends aren't going to purchase any, either. Don't give them a list of your friends, neighbors, and relatives. Establish a web page and post on it your emails to PA and their responses.

If PA doesn't respond with a termination, tell them you intend to take them to arbitration to obtain a release. Then contact the arbiters and begin the arrangements. You can keep PA in the know by giving them a courtesy copy. They might change their minds rather than find themselves not only releasing your book, but paying you as well.

[DaveKuzminski]

burgy61,

You'd be doing it under Fair Use to educate and make other writers aware of what PA is pulling should they try to claim their correspondence to you is copyright protected and can't be posted.

In the meantime, whoever is passing along the information that the dollar PA gives for a contract is necessary to seal the contract, that isn't accurate. That dollar constitutes an advance on sales. Therefore, that dollar isn't from the publisher, it's from a future customer. Publishers pay advances based upon how many sales they expect to make. To entice you to sell your book to them, they offer an advance out of their own pockets at their own risk based on an analysis of the market. If your book doesn't sell enough to earn out the advance, then they've lost money. If it does earn out, then did they actually pay anything to the author? No. Their customers paid the author.

[LloydBrown]

In the meantime, whoever is passing along the information that the dollar PA gives for a contract is necessary to seal the contract, that isn't accurate. That dollar constitutes an advance on sales. Therefore, that dollar isn't from the publisher, it's from a future customer. Publishers pay advances based upon how many sales they expect to make. To entice you to sell your book to them, they offer an advance out of their own pockets at their own risk based on an analysis of the market. If your book doesn't sell enough to earn out the advance, then they've lost money. If it does earn out, then did they actually pay anything to the author? No. Their customers paid the author.

That would be me, and unless Jaws or somebody with specific knowledge otherwise can contradict me, it is my understanding that consideration is still required for a contract to be binding. Consideration is anything of value given to the other party in a contract. It could be one American dollar in exchange for a manuscript. It could be a can of Coke for ten acres of beachfront property. The values don't matter--only that something with some value exchanges hands on either side.

Your argument that the customer is providing that dollar is just plain incorrect, Dave. The return address doesn't come from a customer, the dollar didn't come out of a customer's bank account or pocket, and no customer has paid money for it yet.

Compare other examples. If a city contracts a general contractor to build a toll booth, and gives him a $1,000 deposit to buy equipment, who paid the contractor? The city, or the drivers passing through the toll booth? Eventually, the drivers will repay the city, but the money still came from the city. It doesn't matter how the contract signer expects to be repaid for his investment, or even if he expects to be repaid at all. It's completely irrelevant.

Heck, in at least 1,100 cases, no customers bought any books. Does that make those 1,100 contracts invalid? No--the authors still have their dollar.

Here, check out wikipedia's entry on consideration in American law. It breaks it down more clearly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consideration_under_American_law

[LloydBrown]

And if you'll permit me to quote myself
The values don't matter--only that something with some value exchanges hands on either side.

This is the reasoning for my argument that a person wanting out of the contract before submitting a manuscript should just submit nonsense. The manuscript doesn't have to meet any quality standards to be a legal exchange for the dollar and promises that came with it.

They don't typically read manuscripts. Even if they did, they're not skilled enough to tell the difference between trash and treasure.

[Patricia]

I don't know about others, but my dollar was never deducted from any of my so-called royalty checks. In retrospection, I thought that it was probably just another way for them to appear like a "traditional" publisher to the unsuspecting and uninformed author.

[Marie Pacha]

Did they report it to you as income on your 1099?

[DaveKuzminski]

Probably because PA was too cheap to get a real accounting program meant for handling publishing. Then again, that's typically PA.

[Patricia]

Probably because PA was too cheap to get a real accounting program meant for handling publishing. Then again, that's typically PA.

So true.

[Patricia]

The purpose of PA's advance is purely as a gimmick, a figleaf to enable PA to claim that it pays advances.

-Ken

Exactly. Well said.

[LloydBrown]

I have no doubt that the desire to claim to be a royalty-paying publisher is a huge part of sending the dollar.

It also has the benefit of creating a binding contract. Even if a judge were to declare that the promise of publishing has no value because of PA's near-complete inability to sell books, the dollar makes the contract still binding.

[James D. Macdonald]

Although the repayment comment is in their contract (I believe), we have no record that PA has ever asked for it back. Correct?

I've seen comments from PA authors to the effect that the dollar was deducted from their first royalty check.

Here, as in everything else, PA is inconsistent and unprofessional.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . I believe that printing is part of the rights publishers purchase. . . .
The publisher also takes on the obligation to print copies and perform other normal publishing activities as part of the contract. That is certainly the case in the contract for Dandelion, the example I have at hand. The rights aspect appears in one section, and the obligation (the other side of the coin) in another. Neither would make sense without the other.

--Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

Much of this is remarkably off-topic for PA.

I may be moving a bunch of posts soon.

[Arkie]

My advance came in regular mail in the form of a crisp one-dollar bill suitable for framing. I never considered it more than a psychological gimmick, because there was no written record of the exchange that a cancelled check would have provided. They could not prove they sent it, or I had received it and it was not deducted from future royalties.

[jamiehall]

Much of this is remarkably off-topic for PA.

I may be moving a bunch of posts soon.

That would be a good idea.

[Patricia]

Don't give up too easily. If I remember correctly, you haven't submitted your novel yet. Nor have you gotten the "dollar."

I would hold the submission and continue to tell them that if they insist on you submitting that you will not be buying any copies of your book and neither will any of your friends and relatives. Do you really want to waste a good book on them? A little patience and pursuing to improve your craft will only pay off in the end. I wish to heaven I'd had the opportunity to get out before they slaughtered my book.

Right now, you want your book to be "published." Believe me, with PA, your book is dead. Knowing what I know now, I would have left mine in the bottom drawer to collect dust, rather than go with PA. At least I would have been able to use my own name with future publications.

Better no publication, than a "publication" with PA. Death toll.

[Tina]

If I don't submit by Sept. first that would be breach of contract. I haven't given up hope, I held back some things I discussed with the attorney. Mostly I'm preparing for the worst, I hope that when this is over I can move on without becoming bitter.

I let them know on the last couple of emails that I wouldn't buy my books . I also let them know that I will not be giving them any names, so far they haven't responded.

This is what I find confusing (and maybe somebody with more knowledge can enlighten me). In the commercial publishing world, it does happen that a writer cannot produce a book for which he may have signed a contract. No legit publisher would say, "well in that case send us whatever blather you can pound out on the keyboard because we must publish or you are in breach of contract" (right Miranda?)

If you haven't provided the manuscript, they don't have the book, right? Or am I just really missing something here?

If you send back the advance and tell them you cannot produce the book, wouldn't that be enough? A publisher cannot make someone write something. PA can try, but that just pushes them further and further away from the mainstream commercial publishing world.

[janetbellinger]

There's no need to submit garbage to PA, burgy, or re tain an attorney. All you have to do is send them a registered letter telling them you will not buy any of your own books and you will not sell any to your relatives or friends. They'll release you from your contract in a snap, for if you won't buy your own books or peddle them to your loved ones, you're no good to them.

[midlander]

Free at last, thank God almighty I am free at last!!!!

I had made several requests of PA to release me from my contract back in March 2006...they refused to do so.

I just put things on the back burner since then.

However, on July 20, 2007...with another royalty period ending I decided to write a short and simple noe and make the request once again.

Here is my note:

I am XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, the author of "Lost Son? A
Bastard Child's Journey of Hope, Search, Discovery and
Healing."

I signed my contract with PA in September of 2003 and
it was released on June 19, 2004...now a little over 3
yrs ago.

As your records will reveal the book has not sold very
well. From June-Dec 2004 just over 300 copies were
sold...this was due to my purchasing 160 copies
myself...thankfully they have all sold. I have not financially
been able to purchase copies since then, nor have I had
the desire to do so.

In the 2 1/2 yrs since then you can see how very few
copies have sold....see your own records!

Many times in March 2006, I requested our contract be cancelled
and I be released from it. At that time you said you
would not do this.

I have let the matter set since that time.

Another royalty period is soon to end, the 3rd one
since I requested release from the contract. Your
records will show extremely few sales during the past
year and a half.

I believe it is no longer in either of our best
interest to continue having this book under contract
for the full 7 yrs it was signed for.

I am therefore once again requesting that our contract
be cancelled and my book be released and returned to
me, it just has not proven to be as fruitful as we both may have
hoped.

Thank you for your consideration of this matter.

Sincerely,


Today I signed for the following letter from PA:

July 24, 2007 ( don't know what delayed it getting to me)

Dear XXXXXX,

I am informing you, as per your request for termination of your contract, that we are DISCONTINUING publication of your book Lost Son? as of this day

Your final royalty statement will be sent as usual.

All rights under the copyright are herewith returned to you.

Sincerely,
Darcy Smittennar
Publish America, LLLP

YES! YES! YES!

During the initial honeymoon period after signing the original contract I had sent in a 2nd ms which they accepted...boy was that a BIG mistake on my part.

It was released in September 2005 (22 copies sold...none bought by me) and without requesting it PA terminated that contract in March 2006.

Thus I am now TOTALLY free of this scam operation!!!

In the past year I have moved on and have had a number of articles published and work on improving my writing skills.

I can now put this entire miserable experience behind me!!!!

Peace,
Larry~

[Saundra Julian]

Way to go, Larry. I am also free and know how you're feeling at this moment. Congratulations!

[JulieB]

Woot!

[James D. Macdonald]

What I meant to say, I know you think that I should submit garbage, but I cannot.

No. Submit nothing. You can have a case or writer's block that goes for years, as far as they're concerned. Every time they ask you for the manuscript you can say "I'm still working on it," until they die of boredom, old age, or jailhouse food.

Do you want your name associated with PA? Do you want to never be able to mention your first book in public?

Have some pride. You can outlast 'em. They'll cancel the contract eventually, or the bankruptcy court will do it for them.

[DaveKuzminski]

Folks, let's not forget that a lot of writers who are unfamiliar with the publishing industry think that if there isn't anything currently being mentioned about something, then it's old news and isn't applicable any longer. So it's necessary to repeat recent things and how they're progressing just to emphasize to those new writers that PA isn't going to and hasn't changed its spots since last year or last month. We have to make it clear that PA is not trustworthy or honorable when it comes to dealing with writers.

We're doing this to help those writers; not just until we merely get sick of pointing something out.

[James D. Macdonald]

Come after you?

They might have their trained monkey send you some nastygrams. (See Christine N's adventures earlier this year.) That's as far as they'll go. They don't dare go to court.

Repeat after me: They don't dare go to court.

Say no, be firm about it, and other than that ignore them.

[Brenda Hill]

I worry that PA might try to come after me if I don't submit. I will be talking to the attorney again the first of the week. I do have legal options to get out, mostly it is a fund problem on whether or not they help me.

Yes Jim, I have pride in myself, and my book, thats why I want out of this contract so bad. I know that if PA gets their hands on it, I will be having a funeral for this book. They are no longer answering my emails so I will be sending them a certified letter letting them know that I will not buy my own book, nether will my family and friends.

Jim's right, burgy. Ignore their tactics and threats and keep sending the letters asking for release. It took about a month of twice a week emails for them to send a release, and that was after an initial refusal:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1079431#post1079431

But that magical day finally arrived when I received THE letter. So it does happen, even when they appear to be shocked and/or indignant at such an 'unusual' request.

Wonderful news, Larry. Congratulations!

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, this is new!

I just bopped over to the Truth About PublishAmerica site (home of the famous PA FAQs), only to discover that there's a page saying that it's been suspended due to Terms of Service violations.

Okay, guys, you know what to do: go to the Google Cache and save copies.

[Sheryl Nantus]

AFAIK PublishAmerica has NEVER voluntarily been in a courtroom.

they have been dragged, kicking and screaming, but have never actually initiated the process.

make of that what you will.

[JCT]

Well, this is new!

I just bopped over to the Truth About PublishAmerica site (home of the famous PA FAQs), only to discover that there's a page saying that it's been suspended due to Terms of Service violations.

Okay, guys, you know what to do: go to the Google Cache and save copies.

Good idea. I'll put copies up later at my .mac account.

[CatSlave]

Could this be a stalling tactic on Vic's part due to the upcoming arbitration?
So PA can 'sanitize' itself before it becomes exposed to public ridicule?

Not that anyone has ever ridiculed PA, heaven forbid.

[DaveKuzminski]

Well everyone it looks like I'm upsetting folks at PA, they think that my attempts to get released a comedy. I have decided not to hire an attorney, but they did give me some advice. If I don't send in my MS PA will have to file for arbitration. But with no damages on either side I don't see what we would arbitrate. So I work on the book trying to make it the best that I can. I hope that I can get released so I can pursue an agent, I still think I have a great story and hope people will get the chance to read it someday. I am considering posting their emails so other people will see how they treat their authors.

Yes, you should. Don't let them claim they said otherwise in other venues. Post their letters for everyone to see.

[Jersey Chick]

Go for it - for every person who sees it as "bashing", hopefully another will see as a ray of light.

You are so rockin' on this, Burgy! :D

[DaveKuzminski]

I may need some research assistance tomorrow and possibly beyond that in searching for information about PA's cover images. I have someone special who needs this for legal purposes. You can email me at prededitors@att.net for detailed info on what needs to be located.

Thanks.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

No problems with the shouting. We're on your side; and on the people over there's side too (excepting those running the company).

[ccomer]

I got an interesting letter in the mail today from PA. they are real interested in my book and are waiting for me to send in the rest of the work. the thing that makes this interesting is that I am no longer with PA. I now have another publisher and haven't been with PA in some time. someone forgot to tell someone else that I was released from my contract.



www.freewebs.com/ccomer

[brianm]

I hope nobody minds but I need to vent, I must admit I was upset with the email I got yesterday. I posted it on the PAMB thread by request. I would link it here but I'm not sure how.

Here’s the link, Burgy61. It’s post #4922.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38537&page=197

[CatSlave]

I got an interesting letter in the mail today from PA. they are real interested in my book and are waiting for me to send in the rest of the work. the thing that makes this interesting is that I am no longer with PA. I now have another publisher and haven't been with PA in some time. someone forgot to tell someone else that I was released from my contract.



www.freewebs.com/ccomer (http://www.freewebs.com/ccomer)

That tells me the submissions to PA must be slacking off. When that happens, Miranda goes back in the spreadsheet to find authors who have queried but not submitted and urges them to send in their work. She will even send letters to authors who have been rejected, inviting them to resubmit their work for reconsideration. Sounds like they need to pump up their numbers, especially since it's time for the next batch of royalty checks. PA can't get your money without a signed contract in hand. That's the bottom line.

[BarbJ]

That tells me the submissions to PA must be slacking off. When that happens, Miranda goes back in the spreadsheet to find authors who have queried but not submitted and urges them to send in their work. She will even send letters to authors who have been rejected, inviting them to resubmit their work for reconsideration. Sounds like they need to pump up their numbers, especially since it's time for the next batch of royalty checks. PA can't get your money without a signed contract in hand. That's the bottom line.

Hey ccomer and draggin' tail, that's great news! In a weird twisted way, as is suitable for PA, but great nonetheless. :D

[DaveKuzminski]

Thank you to all who considered providing some research. Turns out it won't be needed. The interested party is going to do their own research and apparently has the resources to do so. Provided they find out the same as we have, PA will probably find itself in court once more.

Hi Vic, just giving you some job security over there. ;)

Yep, this is a situation where arbitration doesn't enter into the picture because it's another business and their contract and copyrights that PA's violating. Oops! PA done did it again.

Have fun over there, Vic. Say hi to Larry, Willem, Miranda, and Alice for me. I'm sure they'll want a new picture for the Kill Dave Dartboard. I'm sure they can find one on the Internet. All they have to do is not be too cheap to print it out. Hey, they can use their new printer for that and the cost will plummet down to near nothing if they do a full print run. How convenient for them!

[CatSlave]

Hi Vic, just giving you some job security over there. ;)
Sounds like Vic is going to be as busy as a one-legged man at an ass-kicking contest.

And about as effective.

[emsuniverse]

Sounds like Vic is going to be as busy as a one-legged man at an ass-kicking contest.

And about as effective.

Well there's an image.

[Ann Onamuss]

Well! I'm crushed! PA hasn't sent me any follow up letters!

I've been waiting and waiting since they sent me my congratulatory letter. I even changed my voice mail message just in case they call. Don't they want my fabulous tome? It's soooo fab!

Hmm...how will they know which one is the sting manuscript? Might they have to READ each and every one???

Mwuuu Haa Haaa!!!!!!

PS I would have posted here sooner but I forgot how to spell my name!

[CatSlave]

Oooh, 'Ann', I'm looking forward to hearing your story!

Sting manuscripts are very popular here. :)

[jamiehall]

I let them know on the last couple of emails that I wouldn't buy my books . I also let them know that I will not be giving them any names, so far they haven't responded.

Given what I've heard about them, I wouldn't assume that they read those emails. They are masters of the tactic of ignoring.

[jamiehall]

Come after you?

They might have their trained monkey send you some nastygrams. (See Christine N's adventures earlier this year.) That's as far as they'll go. They don't dare go to court.

Repeat after me: They don't dare go to court.

Say no, be firm about it, and other than that ignore them.

As a scam company, they make themselves look worse and lose many potential clients when they go to court, also the evidence becomes part of the public record, where it can be quoted by their opponents again and again. They know that they stand to lose big if they appear in court, so they hardly ever do this.

Besides, even if for some reason they won on a technicality or something, what would be the amount of damages? My guess is that the biggest the amount could ever be is the average amount they earn from one author, which is quite small.

But don't expect them to take you to court and even if they did, don't expect them to win. Vast forces of stupidity or wild chance would need to converge on that courtroom in order for that to happen. Think of it as a one-in-a-million chance.

PA loves to give the impression that it might take you to court. In reality, it hardly ever happens and every time it does PA loses a lot of potential clients. It simply isn't worth it for them to fight you on anything other than a verbal level. They love to entangle those who request contract cancellation in endless, useless arguments and debates, often with canned answers. Keep on point with them, like a robot that constantly repeats "cancel my contract" and it is virtually certain that they'll let you out.

[VeggieChick]

Is it just me or some weeks are better than others when it comes to cover design for new books? Sometimes I can rescue a good percentage of covers, but this week is just awful!

[BarbJ]

Just curious - anything on the Hellocopter? I suppose I could go over and check for myself, but it makes me feel slimed...

[Dave.C.Robinson]

The Hellocopter is back in Frederick, and they're preparing for the next leg.

[CatSlave]

The Hellocopter is back in Frederick, and they're preparing for the next leg.
I couldn't get through to the website www.hellocopter.org (http://www.hellocopter.org/)

[CatSlave]

Is it just me or some weeks are better than others when it comes to cover design for new books? Sometimes I can rescue a good percentage of covers, but this week is just awful!
They have such a large employee turnover that there's always somebody new onboard to train. Not much quality control there, or artistic license, just cut and paste as fast as you can. Cover designers have to meet a minimum volume requirement for the number of covers they must produce. They are not allowed enough time to develop something that looks professional, as you can see from the new offerings each week. Some of them may be fine artists, but you can't tell from the dreck they have to pound out day after day.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

PA loves to give the impression that it might take you to court. In reality, it hardly ever happens and every time it does PA loses a lot of potential clients.Granted, I've been out of the loop for awhile, but... has PA ever been to court? Arbitration, yes, and they've lost every time. But--court?

My understanding was, PA would never willingly step inside a courtroom because the data turned up during the discovery phase would be too damning.

Has this actually happened?

Edited To Add: I see from paging back in the thread that PA have been "dragged kicking and screaming" into court and may wind up there again. I hadn't heard. Has anyone just a quickie URL to drop here so I can read up on it myself?

[brianm]

Edited To Add: I see from paging back in the thread that PA have been "dragged kicking and screaming" into court and may wind up there again. I hadn't heard. Has anyone just a quickie URL to drop here so I can read up on it myself?

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but it is a civil action still showing open against PA.

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/processDisclaimer.jis

Use the search feature and put in PA. The case you are looking for is this one:

Case Information


Court System:
Circuit Court for Baltimore City - Civil System
Case Number:
24C04008613
Title:
Clyde E Bennett Sr, et al vs Jacqueline M Schumacher
Case Type:
Other TortFiling Date:11/29/2004
Case Status:
Open/Active
Case Disposition:
Default JudgementDisposition Date:12/05/2006


As you can see, it is still an open/active case. The family of the author are suing the author and PA for what the author wrote about the family in her book. If I’m not mistaken, they are seeking $3 million in damages.

[brianm]

I have been receiving some emails lately from unhappy PA authors. Thanks can be given to Burgy61/Michael for some of these emails, because the senders started questioning their publisher when they read what he wrote on the PAMB, and what he is posting on his own website.

One thing that I found interesting, is that some PA authors are informing the newly questioning authors that PA's ownership has recently changed, and therefore the quotes made by William Meiners about PA making the majority of its income by selling books to its authors is no longer valid. The "new owners" are not acting in the same fashion as its previous owners.

This was a new one for me. Has anyone else heard this? I know PA's ownership has not changed, and I informed the two PA authors the information they had been given was inaccurate.

[triceretops]

Sounds like an attempt to deliberately misplace the blame, by claiming new ownership. Certainly any research would bear out the truth that the company has not changed hands, nor has any additional partners been added to the company. The (3) little lil pigs still own the joint and continue to prosper and ruin legitimate writing careers. The Stepford Scribe machine is running non-stop, sucking in prospective authors from one end, and spitting out customers on the other.

Tri

[RepChristian07]

I'm An 18 Year Old Guy, Just Of High School, Still Living With Parents, That Just Finished Working On A Novel That I Came Up With Back In 7th Grade And Then Took Years Of Hard Work And Research And Creative Thinking Towards My Novel. I Began Writing It Earlier This Year And Just Recently Finished It.

My Novel Is Of Course Extremely Important To Me And I've Been Looking At All Publishing Options To Getting The Book Out There To The Public. This Includes Self-Publishing, Traditional Publishing W/O An Agent, And Now I'm Looking At Possible Agents To Represent Me And Try Seeing If A Traditional Publisher (A Real One Unlike Publish America) Might Be Interested In My Work.

With That Info On Me Aside, You Can Imagine An Amateur Uninformed Rookie Author Like Me Bumping Into The Publish America Website. I Was Ecstatic At How Easy It Looked To Publish With Them. I Thought, "Finally Here Might Be The Chance To Have My Story Inspire And Entertain Book Buyers/Readers Out There, And This Company Is Gonna' Help Me Get There." Well I Gleefully Submitted My Manuscript And Happily Wrote To Them All The Details Of My Book Including Story, Genre, Why It Should Sell Well, And All That Good Stuff.

So There I Am Days Later Still Cruising Other Publishing Options And Getting More Informed About The Publishing Business As I Hope To Get An Approval Of My Novel From Publish America. Suddenly, A Gut Feeling Hit Me.

It Said That I Should Look More Into This Publish America Company. Two Reasons For This Gut Feeling I Believe Were Because: 1) I'm A Devout Christian And I Prayed That God Would Help Me Get My Book Into The Right Hands. 2) They're Website Was Ridiculously Cheap Looking Compared To Even The Smallest Presses Out There.

So I Looked Into Them And Was Horrified To Learn Of Their Horrible Business Practices, Their Lies, And The Way They Had Completely No Sympathy For Any Of Their Own Authors That Gave Them Money To Live On. I Thought To Myself "I Submitted My Beloved Manuscript To These Horrible People?!"

Now I'm A Very Positive Person When It Comes To Money, Buying Things, And Doing Business; So A Bunch Of Bad Reviews Of Something Doesn't Usually Change My Mind. However, This That I Got From Publish America Was So Incredibly And Ludicrously Overwhelming. Not Only Did Authors Not Like Them, But The Most Important Thing To Getting Your Book Out There Didn't Like Them Either...Bookstores!

So I Felt Blessed For Getting The Truth On Publish America Before I Was Suckered In, And Yet Felt Bad/Sorry For Those Who Had Been, Having To Share Horrifying Stories Of Their Own.

So I Waited And Finally Just Got The Acceptance Of My Manuscript To Be Published. But As Hard As It Was To Do Since It Felt Real Good (Whether They Be A Bad Company Or Not) To Have Someone Want To Publish It, I Did What Was For The Better...I Rejected Them. I Replied To There Approval E-Mail By Sending In The Following :

While I Am Incredibly Happy And Excited That You Have Chosen To Publish My Novel, I'm Afraid That I Will Have To Regretfully Decline Your Offer To Publish. Though I Can't Believe It Myself That I Am Declining To Have My Dream Achieved Of Being A Published Author, Personal Reasons And Outside Information Have Forced Me To Decline Having Business With You. I Came To This Decision Just Yesterday In Case You Might Be Wondering.


I Ask That You Destroy The Manuscript That I Gave You And That You Please Don't Respond Back Trying To Win Me Over. I Highly Anticipate That You Will Do These Two Things That I Have Asked Of You.


Again, I Thank You Very Much For Enjoying Reading My Novel, And Wanting To Get It Published. However I Believe And Know It Will Be Best For The Two Of Us To Not Have A Partnership.


With One Last Note, I Sincerely Apologize For Any Valuable Time Wasted On My Manuscript, Though Having The Positive Feedback From You That You Would Want To Publish It Was Helpful.


Sincerely, Seriously, Apologetically, And Regretfully,

Luis A. Mendez

Now Keep In Mind That I Was Trying To Be Very Positive And Very Polite With Them, Though In Truth I'm Extremely Angry At Them Right Now For Trying To Sucker Me In.

I Just Wanted To Thank Everyone For Helping Me See The Light And Hopefully I'll Find A Publishing Company That Will At Least Respect Me As A rookie Author, My Book's Vision, And My Book Being Sold To Those It Can Inspire And Entertain.

[brianm]

Welcome to AW, RepChristian07, and thank you for sharing your story.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you need to stop capitalizing every word in your sentences. I was cross-eyed by the time I finished reading your post. :D

Good luck with your writing and in being published.

[brianm]

Sounds like an attempt to deliberately misplace the blame, by claiming new ownership.
Tri

Yes, I thought exactly the same thing. The PAvadians will stoop to anything to protect their god, Publish America. Oiy.

[Rolling Thunder]

You did well, Rep. Something that most people don't know about PA is they hold the rights to each book for 7 years. In the meantime, they can sell those rights to someone else, as in this example:

http://www.publishamerica.com/

Scroll down or search for Shades of Artemis
I wonder if the author got more than the original $1.00 for the sale of those publishing rights or had any say in the matter?

[CatSlave]

Dear RepChristian07,

:welcome:
Welcome to the AW forum.
There is an enormous amount of good information here, both for newbies and seasoned writers.
Be sure to check out the Writing with Uncle Jim threads.
Good luck with your writing endeavors.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987

[RepChristian07]

Welcome to AW, RepChristian07, and thank you for sharing your story.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you need to stop capitalizing every word in your sentences. I was cross-eyed by the time I finished reading your post. :D

Good luck with your writing and in being published.

Yeah, Sorry About That. I'm Obsessed With Doing That Unless I'm Writing A Work Of Mine (My Novel & Such). It's A Habit.

Thinks To Himself : Oh No! I'm Doing It Again!

Dear RepChristian07,


:welcome:
Welcome to the AW forum. There is an enormous amount of good information here, both for newbies and seasoned writers.
Be sure to check out the Writing with Uncle Jim threads.
Good luck with your writing endeavors.

Thanks, I'll Check Them Out. I'll Need All The Info I Can Get.

[Mel]

One thing that I found interesting, is that some PA authors are informing the newly questioning authors that PA's ownership has recently changed, and therefore the quotes made by William Meiners about PA making the majority of its income by selling books to its authors is no longer valid. The "new owners" are not acting in the same fashion as its previous owners.


And they have the nerve to tell everyone we are liars?! Suppose maybe if they keep losing members it puts a crimp in their perks?

::tapes fingers together so I can't type what I'd really like to::

Welcome to AW, RepChristian07! Glad you sidestepped the nasty evil ones.

[CatSlave]

One thing that I found interesting, is that some PA authors are informing the newly questioning authors that PA's ownership has recently changed, and therefore the quotes made by William Meiners about PA making the majority of its income by selling books to its authors is no longer valid. The "new owners" are not acting in the same fashion as its previous owners.

This was a new one for me. Has anyone else heard this? I know PA's ownership has not changed, and I informed the two PA authors the information they had been given was inaccurate.
I wonder if they are referring to the change from AmErica House or whatever it used to be to PublishAmerica? As a diversionary tactic, of course.

Public records are available for business ownership or name changes.
PA is located in Frederick County, Maryland if anyone is curious.

[DaveKuzminski]

Claiming that the company with a bad rep has been sold and should no longer be judged by the previous incidents is another example of scam behavior. I've seen it claimed quite often by scam companies.

By the way, consider this. Who in their right minds would want to purchase a known scam company? Even if the price was ridiculously low, the new owner would face the problem of improving the company reputation even while new allegations and documentation of past misdeeds are continuing to emerge. It's a battle that can't be won when the company's products still aren't being carried by retailers, especially when it would take up to a year to produce a good product capable of changing the minds of retailers. Even a name change would fail to make a difference if quality controls aren't put into place. So why would anyone want to burden themselves with a bad company when they could start one from scratch with a lot less effort and have a clean reputation?

[BenPanced]

I say whoever bought it only paid $1...

[Sheryl Nantus]

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but it is a civil action still showing open against PA.

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/processDisclaimer.jis

Use the search feature and put in PA. The case you are looking for is this one:

Case Information


Court System:
Circuit Court for Baltimore City - Civil System
Case Number:
24C04008613
Title:
Clyde E Bennett Sr, et al vs Jacqueline M Schumacher
Case Type:
Other TortFiling Date:11/29/2004
Case Status:
Open/Active
Case Disposition:
Default JudgementDisposition Date:12/05/2006


As you can see, it is still an open/active case. The family of the author are suing the author and PA for what the author wrote about the family in her book. If I’m not mistaken, they are seeking $3 million in damages.

I remember this one - she claimed in her book that her grandfather was a real warlock, blah blah blah... and while the man in question has passed away, the rest of the family were less than thrilled with her portraying such a recent member in a negative light.

PA didn't stand by her and immediately dropped her like a hot potato; which surprised her. She thought that her publisher would stand by their author.

whoops.

[JCT]

$3 Million? But...but...but that would mean no more Hellocopter trips ;)

[DaveKuzminski]

The Hellocopter is back in Frederick, and they're preparing for the next leg.

They found an air-tow service? ;)

[Tina]

I remember this one - she claimed in her book that her grandfather was a real warlock, blah blah blah... and while the man in question has passed away, the rest of the family were less than thrilled with her portraying such a recent member in a negative light.

PA didn't stand by her and immediately dropped her like a hot potato; which surprised her. She thought that her publisher would stand by their author.

whoops.

Very ironic: The family doesn't realize that practically no one will read the book unless they are the ones who buy it.

Maybe PA can use that as a defence...(grin).

[BarbJ]

Very ironic: The family doesn't realize that practically no one will read the book unless they are the ones who buy it.

Maybe PA can use that as a defence...(grin).

Ooh, I like that. And the author can sue the family for buying the book and thus spreading the tale... :D

[JulieB]

Oh, dear (http://www.waxahachiedailylight.com/articles/2007/08/16/dailylight/news/04-08-16-07-novel.txt).

It's another "local woman gets published" story, but take a look at the literary agency that gave her the critique.

Also, the book title in the body of the article does not match the title on the book she's holding. Actually, the title is wrong twice. I have to wonder if part of the interview was conducted via e-mail and the reporter did a cut-and-paste job. If so, he may not have even seen the book. The paper probably just sent a photographer out to snap the picture. Still, a copy editor should have caught that - or at least caught the fact that the title was spelled differently TWICE in the article. No author - even a PA author - deserves that.

She's a science teacher. I hope the English teachers in her school are kind to her.

(And for the curious, the Waxahachie is pronounced woks-uh-hatchie. It's about a half-hour drive south of Dallas.)

[Gillhoughly]

Thanks JulieB!

http://www.waxahachiedailylight.com/articles/2007/08/16/dailylight/news/04-08-16-07-novel.txt

You beat me to it!

I sent a mail to the reporter with lots of links to sites like AW, Washington Post, etc. that have warnings against PA & the WLAgency.

I also expressed sympathy to the would be writer, Ms. Davis, for being yet another victim of their scams.

Could other writers and editors in the forum also drop a line to the reporter? It'd only take a minute.

PA is cancer and we're the radiation treatment. Not comfortable for the patient, but it can do some good if caught early!


From the article:

“The Daredevil Girls of Bunker Hill” is available on line through Publish America, Amazon and Barnes and Nobles [sic] and will soon be available at Hastings Books, 791 Highway 77, Waxahachie. Davis will be there for a book signing Sept. 15. E-mail Paul at paul.gauntt@waxahachiedailylight.com"

[emsuniverse]

Oh, my.

Oh my, my, my.

That both infuriates me and breaks my heart.

She seems like a nice lady.

They always do.

Well, most of them...

[DaveKuzminski]

PA now has a new page, at least one I haven't seen before. What's interestings about it is it clarifies some provisions of their contract. It's at http://www.publishamerica.com/contractprovisions.htm. One provision even states PA gets first chance at a second work, even if it's already being shopped around when the author signs with PA.

Could this mean PA is getting desperate for submissions?

[aruna]

#14. Once we have entered a new title into our production schedule, an editor will be assigned to do a line-by-line editing of the manuscript. The page proofs reflect the editor's interventions.

yes, right. Like you did with Crack of Death, Atlanta Nights, and Purple Pony.

[Rolling Thunder]

PA now has a new page, at least one I haven't seen before. What's interestings about it is it clarifies some provisions of their contract. It's at http://www.publishamerica.com/contractprovisions.htm. One provision even states PA gets first chance at a second work, even if it's already being shopped around when the author signs with PA.

Could this mean PA is getting desperate for submissions?

And there is a possible writer's take down strategy. If a work is being shopped around as stated, and an offer comes in at any amount over $1, PA could be sued for damages for the amount over and beyond $1 unless they match the competitive advance.

The key here is that PA must meet their contractural obligation in good faith or the contract is unenforceable.

[Arkie]

Add to the fact they're no longer requiring the author to obtain a copyright and that they are printing many books under 100 pages, and I believe they are now accepting picture books, and are printing cookbooks, indicates they are now operating at the level of your local Kinko's.

[PVish]

PA now has a new page, at least one I haven't seen before. What's interestings about it is it clarifies some provisions of their contract. It's at http://www.publishamerica.com/contractprovisions.htm. One provision even states PA gets first chance at a second work, even if it's already being shopped around when the author signs with PA.

Could this mean PA is getting desperate for submissions?

This is an old provision. Several years ago, they required the right of first refusal for a subsequent work, but they dropped that provision. I wonder if they've resurrected it, or if the info is an old page that they reposted. (When my dog received his PA contract, I saw no mention of a second work.)

My favorites:The sales price is the net price that the publisher receives from the book purchaser. Our sales discounts may range from 0 to 55 pct.

So, compared to a possible zero percent discount, 5% seems pretty generous.

#18. We welcome cover design suggestions by the author. The author should submit no art work unless invited by our design staff. All art contributed by or through the author must be free of rights.

Translation: We've had problems with authors submitting copyrighted work and we don't want to deal with that again. "Free of rights"? Don't they mean that the author should own the rights?

#19. Subsequent editions do not negatively impact royalty percentages. Once the aggregate number of sold copies passes the 2,000 and 8,000 and 10,000 marks, the climbing royalty percentages apply.

Like that's really gonna happen!

[Bufty]

PA's 'get out' phrase onto which I lock is 'for our consideration' which means diddly squat.

And there is a possible writer's take down strategy. If a work is being shopped around as stated, and an offer comes in at any amount over $1, PA could be sued for damages for the amount over and beyond $1 unless they match the competitive advance.

The key here is that PA must meet their contractural obligation in good faith or the contract is unenforceable.

[Rolling Thunder]

PA's 'get out' phrase onto which I lock is 'for our consideration' which means diddly squat.

I was thinking of the timing factor on that second book while it's being shopped around. But, yeah, 'for our consideration' is a reliable out for PA.

[AnneMarble]

"#17. If we deem it necessary for a book's promotion that the author does any substantial travelling (more than a day's travel distance, for instance) to attend an event initiated or arranged by us, we will provide for transportation and accommodation. No such events will be scheduled without prior consultation of the author. All promotional activities initiated by the author are at the author's expense."

When have they ever deemed it necessary to do anything for promoting a book? Well except for the Farr book, and that was clearly promotion done to draw attention to the company.

"#33. Our symbolical $1 advance intends to emphasize the reality of our publishing offer: it's the publisher who carries all financial risk, as we believe it should be."
First... :tongue
Second... symbolical?

[Bufty]

"Hi, Mr Author - any original ideas for that trip to New York we're not thinking about?" :popcorn:

"#17.... No such events will be scheduled without prior consultation of the author. All promotional activities initiated by the author are at the author's expense."

When have they ever deemed it necessary to do anything for promoting a book? Well except for the Farr book, and that was clearly promotion done to draw attention to the company.

"#33. Our symbolical $1 advance intends to emphasize the reality of our publishing offer: it's the publisher who carries all financial risk, as we believe it should be."
First... :tongue
Second... symbolical?

[JCT]

"#33. Our symbolical $1 advance intends to emphasize the reality of our publishing offer: it's the publisher who carries all financial risk

Risking a whole $1!

[DaveKuzminski]

Add to the fact they're no longer requiring the author to obtain a copyright and that they are printing many books under 100 pages, and I believe they are now accepting picture books, and are printing cookbooks, indicates they are now operating at the level of your local Kinko's.

No longer requiring registration? I guess they're getting wiser to the jeopardy that a registered copyright places them in. Guess we'll have to recommend from now on to all PA authors that they get their copyright registered.

[spike]

No longer requiring registration? I guess they're getting wiser to the jeopardy that a registered copyright places them in. Guess we'll have to recommend from now on to all PA authors that they get their copyright registered.


What difference would it make, to PA, if the authors registered their copyright?

[James D. Macdonald]

What difference would it make, to PA, if the authors registered their copyright?

It would make them liable to statutory damages as well as actual damages in the event of copyright violation.

[VeggieChick]

This has got to be a record. Under new releases this week: 637 pages - Softcover [$39.95] Can you actually find ANY book for that price at a regular store?

http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?catalogid=20813

[Dave.C.Robinson]

You can in Canada-- but it's likely to be one of those eleven or twelve hundred page history books on the origins of Hitler or something. Not a 637 page softcover.

[JulieB]

Wow, you wouldn't find a Harry Potter paperback for that. That's the closest that comes to mind in terms of page count. I'm sure there are others, but I'm dealing with a wrenched back and I'm not about to pull a large paperback from the shelf.

OTOH, we just bought college textbooks. A hundred bucks here, eighty there..what's another forty?

I AM joking.

[AnneMarble]

This has got to be a record. Under new releases this week: 637 pages - Softcover [$39.95] Can you actually find ANY book for that price at a regular store?
Maybe in the computer section, but the costly ones generally contain CDs or DVDs with software, and/or are very specialized. Even in the computer section, that would be a bit high. Now, I have seen signed and numbered hardbacks (limited to 250-500 copies) from specialized small presses go for about that price (sometimesless), but most stores don't carry those. Besides, those are hardbacks, verrry nicely bound, and definitely not POD. :D

[BarbJ]

This is me, standing here with my jaw dropping to the floor. An unknown newbie from a bad publisher with a reputation for shoddy products - the mind boggles, whether the book is good, bad or indifferent. PA is certainly striving to make sure they sell only to the authors. Guess it saves wear and tear on their new printer. :D

[Tina]

You can in Canada-- but it's likely to be one of those eleven or twelve hundred page history books on the origins of Hitler or something. Not a 637 page softcover.

When it comes to expensive gift books (large reprints of artwork for instance) that are always hard-cover, I've seen prices over $100. Not in Chapters/Indigo, maybe, but specialty stores. We used to have a small bookstore chain called Edwards that sold beautiful books but pricey.

Trade paperbacks are still priced 30-40% higher in Canada. This was to reflect the difference in value against the US dollar, but has been out of kilter for the last few years. Publishers keep saying they will adjust this but they don't. The Cdn $ is currently around 95-96 cents US, apparently supposed to reach parity at the end of the year (maybe).

I for one am sick of being gouged by Canadian retailers and publishers, and I am doing some book buying online. Even with delivery charges, it's cheaper to get some books from the US.

Don't even get me started about brand name shoes...

[j.s.cutler]

I just spent some time browsing the message board at PA.

Felt like an agnostic at a bible convention of true believers

Are these all real people?

[Nexusman]

http://www.publishamerica.com/contractprovisions.htm. One provision even states PA gets first chance at a second work, even if it's already being shopped around when the author signs with PA.

Could this mean PA is getting desperate for submissions?


This at the bottom caught my eye:


General remarks:
Our contracts are uniform. Each author signs up to the same rights and obligations.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't non-scam publishing houses have different contracts based on an author's publishing and sales history?

-Nick

[JulieB]

Certainly many contract provisions are negotiable. And, of course, the advance is based on how many copies of a given title they think they can sell, not some "uniform" amount.

[CatSlave]

I just spent some time browsing the message board at PA.

Felt like an agnostic at a bible convention of true believers

Are these all real people?
Yes, they're real. Scary stuff there.

Hint: Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

[xhouseboy]

Oh, dear (http://www.waxahachiedailylight.com/articles/2007/08/16/dailylight/news/04-08-16-07-novel.txt).

It's another "local woman gets published" story, but take a look at the literary agency that gave her the critique.



And no doubt she lined Bobby's pockets for the critique/editing service. Not that it would be worth the paper it was written on.

No one deserves that sort of double whammy - to be shaken down by both Wim and Bobby - and it's going to be a hard one to digest when reality bites.

It's a bit like putting your finances in the trust of the Artful Dodger, who then ups things a notch by passing you on to Fagin.

[BigRed]

I just popped over to the PA website...first time in months (I'm always afraid some spinning wheel will pop-up and turn me into a mindless zealot...not sure why). And the first thing I noticed was the "Click Here To Submit Your Book" link. Umm, 'scuse me? Ya mean, all I have to do is click and give you my book? It's that simple?? Wowsers! I love you PA! Really! I do! (dammit, spinning pop-up wheelie thingy almost got me!). But seriously folks, what honest-to-God publisher would have a "Click here and you're a published author" link on their homepage? Granted, I haven't been to every publisher's site yet, so if there's one out there, just let me know. I'll send you a free copy of my novel...signed at that!

[jamiehall]

Originally Posted by JulieB http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1556425#post1556425)
Oh, dear (http://www.waxahachiedailylight.com/articles/2007/08/16/dailylight/news/04-08-16-07-novel.txt).

It's another "local woman gets published" story, but take a look at the literary agency that gave her the critique.

And no doubt she lined Bobby's pockets for the critique/editing service. Not that it would be worth the paper it was written on.

No one deserves that sort of double whammy - to be shaken down by both Wim and Bobby - and it's going to be a hard one to digest when reality bites.

It's a bit like putting your finances in the trust of the Artful Dodger, who then ups things a notch by passing you on to Fagin.

And it looks like Publish America got the title wrong too (look at the cover image, as compared to the title given in the article). The poor woman! I hope she comes out of this okay.

[AnneMarble]

And it looks like Publish America got the title wrong too (look at the cover image, as compared to the title given in the article). The poor woman! I hope she comes out of this okay.
The article seems inconsistent itself. :rolleyes: At one point, the article uses the word "Dare Devil" when mentioning the title, and at another, it uses the word "Daredevil..." Still, good catch, the preposition of the title clearly doesn't match what the book cover shows!

Also, when I view the article in my browse, the picture covers at least half of the text. I also noticed at least one other error in the text, just from skimming the article. This woman deserved better.

[Mystic]

I haven't seen any action on this site in a while. Has something been happening with PA that I don't know about?

[triceretops]

I'm curious about the copter flight and wonder if it's been postponed or discontinued. Is he still flying the friendly skies?

Tri

[Dave.C.Robinson]

He finished the Americas leg and I think he's back in Frederick getting ready for the next section. It's being done in parts according to everything I've heard.

[Rolling Thunder]

Okay, fess up. Which of you ordered the SAM's from the army surplus store?

[JimmyD1318]

Okay, fess up. Which of you ordered the SAM's from the army surplus store?


(Hides rocket launcher behind his back...) What are you talking about?

[Rocky's Son]

It is amazing how time heals all wounds. I have been extracted from PublishAmerica's clutches for the past one and one half years now. I have been catching up on all of the expose's of former PA's employee's and the expanse of the psychological head games that each employee was subjected too, is down-right disgusting.

There is no way that a book can be deemed worthy of publication by reading the first five pages, middle five pages, and last five pages. In addition, the author "thinks" that he/she is having a personal relationship with his or her editor. The entire business model of P/A's is a hollow mass of deception and slide of hand.

Gary Rogers

[Ken Schneider]

Got my contract resened a couple of years ago now.

Wonder how many new people we have here that were at the PA boards who bashed AW?

[BarbJ]

It is amazing how time heals all wounds. I have been extracted from PublishAmerica's clutches for the past one and one half years now. I have been catching up on all of the expose's of former PA's employee's and the expanse of the psychological head games that each employee was subjected too, is down-right disgusting.

There is no way that a book can be deemed worthy of publication by reading the first five pages, middle five pages, and last five pages. In addition, the author "thinks" that he/she is having a personal relationship with his or her editor. The entire business model of P/A's is a hollow mass of deception and slide of hand.

Gary Rogers

You're right, and welcome! :welcome:

[brianm]

Another PA author sees the light and writes about his terrible experience with PA.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/332856/stumbling_blocks_to_success_the_continued.html

Stumbling Blocks to Success: The Continued Woes of a Self-Published Author

The Publish America Fraud Scandal

… Like many other new authors, I had no idea what was involved in the publishing process, so I left most of the decisions concerning my book to the publisher. The manuscript was published on time as promised, and I received my complimentary copies in the mail. That was when my experience took a turn for the worse…

[platedlizard]

This has got to be a record. Under new releases this week: 637 pages - Softcover [$39.95] Can you actually find ANY book for that price at a regular store?

http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?catalogid=20813


I have. A HUGE full-color hard cover coffetable book on coral reefs. Real pretty, I've been eyeing it for weeks at my local Barnes & Noble. Price on the cover is $40US. I haven't bought it (yet) because of the price, but the huge pile of it they had has diminished to three copies, so I guess it's selling.

The real question is, are there any softcover, non-picture books in real brick&mortar bookstores for that price? I haven't seen any.

[Saundra Julian]

Has anyone seen this?

Dear author,
We thought that we should share this with you:

Keeping in mind that we just went through a very busy royalty month at PublishAmerica, it doesn't happen every day that we are treated as royalty ourselves. Recently we were, though, when Dr. Phil McGraw's staff asked us to appear in his top-rated, nationally syndicated TV show. The episode is scheduled to air this week.

Our photogenic staffer was happy to quickly pack her bags and fly to Hollywood. She reports that the Dr. Phil Show treated her like a queen. She was given a "stunning hotel room" with a full view of the famous Hollywood sign, and she travelled by chauffeured limo. She also had her "own dressing room cum wardrobe expert", and "hair and makeup experts who took their time to make me look good." Dr. Phil's professional staff "thanked [her] profusely for coming out".

The show discusses a conflict between a mother and a daughter who submitted a book to PublishAmerica, and wants to see it published. Dr. Phil decided to mediate, and he wanted PublishAmerica in the studio, with a ready-to-sign contract in hand.

Check your local listings, and see for yourself how the show ends. Have fun!

Thank you.
PublishAmerica Author Support Team


Contract in hand? This should be interesting... Someone didn't do their research for this show!!!

ETA...I see this has been posted on PA quotes...oh well, now we have a record of it here too.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Dr. Phil decided to mediate, and he wanted PublishAmerica in the studio, with a ready-to-sign contract in hand.

so *not* what happened.

I'm not sure if the poor girl actually had a contract with her or was terrified that Dr. Phil was going to ask some questions beyond the obvious.

either way, this is not getting ANY press on the PAMB... wonder why?

:D

[Bonnie Gibson]

I see old PA is still up to their old tactics. I was hoping I'd come in and find them out of business.

Oh well, one day will be payday.

I see a lot of new people in here. Hope you didn't get dooped by PA.

I did.
Bonnie
____________________________
Stumbling is not the same as falling!

[Mystic]

so *not* what happened.

What did happen? What did Dr. Phil have to say about the publisher? Did the show go on as scheduled?

[James D. Macdonald]

Did the show go on as scheduled?

Yes, and the thread discussing it is here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79484

[jamiehall]

Yes, and the thread discussing it is here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79484

I keep trying to load that, but it just won't load for me. Which sub-forum is it in and what is the name of the thread?

[DamaNegra]

I can't find it either. Where is it?

[AnneMarble]

I can't find it either. Where is it?
Oh, good. It's not just me. I thought it was my computer being slow again. Three threads on Dr. Phil and PA were moved, and yet none of them appear when you click on them. The link just loads and loads and loads and never opens.

I asked about this in the FAQ forum thingie, just in case something is broken. (I just heard a clang! :D)

[ccomer]

I started a thread about the show as I was watching it. I didn't know someone else had started one too. they combined the threads and earlier I could go to one of them. Now they are all gone.

[DamaNegra]

Are we being... *gasp* censored??? *cue creepy music*

[CaoPaux]

Nope, just a merging mashup: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79515

[jamiehall]

Nope, just a merging mashup: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79515

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Caro]

The writer Maya Reynolds had an interest blog post today entitled "Crushing Dreams" (http://mayareynoldswriter.blogspot.com/2007/10/on-crushing-dreams.html). Talking of an email conversation between between herself and an impatient young writer who's convinced they're ready now and wonders why they aren't being signed by an agent immediately, she says:

If I had to bet, I'd wager, by the twenty-fifth rejection letter, my young friend will be exploring self-publishing, and--by the time the fiftieth rejection arrives--his wallet will be $2,500 lighter and his dining room table will hold one hundred unsold, self-pubbed books.

I've recently been criticized for what self-pubbed writers see as my "crushing of young writers' dreams" when I warn of the poor probability that a self-pubbed book will be successful.

In almost every profession from electrician to teacher, there's a learning curve and an apprenticeship of sorts. Why, then, is it that people who want to be published authors think all they have to do is write a manuscript and...Voila...they'll be published?

Losing several thousand hard-earned dollars to a vanity press is hard for anyone; however, the blow can be devastating to a young person earning little more than minimum wage.

For those who might be lurking, Maya just had her first book published by NAL. She didn't pay for the privilege, nor did her editor know who she was before purchasing the manuscript. She's not a "big name" but worked hard and didn't give up on her dream. She did her research, honed her craft and kept plugging away.

[JulieB]

Losing several thousand hard-earned dollars to a vanity press is hard for anyone; however, the blow can be devastating to a young person earning little more than minimum wage.

... or someone on retirement or disability ...

[BeeBomb]

If you want to leave a comment on this blog, go do it. It is about the Dr. Phil/PublishAmerica fiasco. Apparently, this blog is an "author" of PublishAmerica.

BeeBomb

writerjack.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/221/

[brianm]

Now it's a fiasco? Golly, you must have been watching a different version of the show than I watched.

Boogles the mind.

[BeeBomb]

Now it's a fiasco? Golly, you must have been watching a different version of the show than I watched.

Boogles the mind.

When I used the word "fiasco" it was in reference to Dr. Phil dropping the ball when he had a golden opportunity to question PublishAmerica in detail about their publishing practices, how many authors are being released from a contract, and how are the accounting facts given to their authors, if at all...they are! All it did was to put unsuspecting "authors" in jeopardy of believeing PublishAmerica is the way to go in getting published.

BeeBomb

[Popeyesays]

When I used the word "fiasco" it was in reference to Dr. Phil dropping the ball when he had a golden opportunity to question PublishAmerica in detail about their publishing practices, how many authors are being released from a contract, and how are the accounting facts given to their authors, if at all...they are! All it did was to put unsuspecting "authors" in jeopardy of believeing PublishAmerica is the way to go in getting published.

BeeBomb

It was not the man's purpose to debunk a pseudo-publisher. I find the whole concept of the show to be disgusting in the first place. To me it is psychiatric "snake oil". Having said that I still can't fault him for sticking to the purpose of helping those two women resolve their difficulties.

He is NOT an investigative reporter, or even a shock jockey.

Regards,
Scott

[J. R. Tomlin]

I'm not sure that I agree with that. At least some hint should have been given that PA is questionable. I am concerned that PA appearing on this popular show without any comment gives the impression of respectablility and will make it even easier for them to suck in the unsuspecting.

I agree that Dr. Phil isn't an investigative reporter, but he has staff. They should know the shady reputation of PA. I wouldn't have expected him to "unmask" them as con artists, but in my opinion something should have been said.

[MMo]

I read somewhere -- can't find it now -- that the daughter had previously signed a contract but that when the mom threatened to sue, the contract was cancelled. I also read -- somewhere -- that the contract had been with PA. I suspect that PA was there so that if the mom and daughter resolved their problems, they could once again sign with their "previous" publisher.

Just my impression ....

(The how many new authors have gotten $3,000,000 in royalties was a good question, IMO)

Mo

[Dave.C.Robinson]

The thing some people may be forgetting is that the Dr. Phil show is about relationships; especially dysfunctional relationships. That's what his audience and sponsors expect, and I wouldn't be surprised that any discussion about publishing would be the first on the editing room floor after a taping. It's not what his audience wants to hear, so it's not a priority for the show.

If an aviation show did a special on the Hellocopter they wouldn't pay much attention to PA's business model either. As far as shows like that are concerned PA is just window dressing, and has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

[Sheryl Nantus]

I read somewhere -- can't find it now -- that the daughter had previously signed a contract but that when the mom threatened to sue, the contract was cancelled. I also read -- somewhere -- that the contract had been with PA. I suspect that PA was there so that if the mom and daughter resolved their problems, they could once again sign with their "previous" publisher.

Just my impression ....

(The how many new authors have gotten $3,000,000 in royalties was a good question, IMO)

Mo

exactly - I can guess at the timeline based on the Dr. Phil background.

1) Daughter sends in manuscript. PA, as usual, offers contract without even reading it.

2) Mother finds out, gets lawyer and nasty note is sent to PA.

3) PA dumps daughter pronto. Remember, they're right now in court over an ex-PA author who published a family memoir that labeled her grandfather as a "warlock". Even though they later cancelled the contract and refused to print any more copies, they were still found legally liable for publishing the manuscript in the first place. I believe the court case is still unresolved, but it ain't pretty.

As well, Authorhouse lost a huge court case where someone had done basically the same thing - even self-pubs have to be careful of what they end up printing!

4) Offer comes in from Dr. Phil asking for a rep to be at the show. PA jumps at the chance, thinking that Dr. Phil will get the two to hug, kiss and make up and then the PA rep can leap onto the stage and deliver a contract to be signed right there in front of the cameras.

5) Whoops. Dr. Phil not only doesn't reconcile the mom/daughter, but declares the manuscript to be "unpublishable" until they resolve other issues. PA rep flies back home to the PA Hole with unsigned contract.

all in all, not a good day for PA.

dang.

:D

[BeeBomb]

It was not the man's purpose to debunk a pseudo-publisher. I find the whole concept of the show to be disgusting in the first place. To me it is psychiatric "snake oil". Having said that I still can't fault him for sticking to the purpose of helping those two women resolve their difficulties.


Regards,
Scott

Hey, Popeye, it's nice to see you again! I can't fathom anyone going on national television and airing their dirty laundry but I do question the writer/s/PublishAmerica's motive for having been placed in the situation. In the back of my mind (female logic/intuition) I suspect PublishAmerica had a devious plot to get their name out to pull in more authors. If not, why on earth would they send out mass emails for everyone to watch the show? If they weren't intrested in all the hoopla, they would have let it die a natural death and have nothing to do with the show.

See it this way..."Yeah, we can do wonders for our name if we let these poor souls go on air. Why, let's not let them sign a contract just yet but when we do, we will have laid the foundation for more signed contracts." I am not certain it wasn't a put up job in the first place and Dr. Phil was the pawn. If that is the case, I hope Dr. Phil comes back with both barrels flashing.

I honestly hope the women can lay aside their differences and move forward toward a postive life.

Joyce aka BeeBomb

[BeeBomb]

Oops, posted twice!

[brianm]

The thing some people may be forgetting is that the Dr. Phil show is about relationships; especially dysfunctional relationships. That's what his audience and sponsors expect, and I wouldn't be surprised that any discussion about publishing would be the first on the editing room floor after a taping. It's not what his audience wants to hear, so it's not a priority for the show.

Exactly. That's why he didn't dissect the music producer the daughter had signed with from the first segment. That mother said they were a scam. However, the show was about daughter/mother relationships and not about the music producer or the publisher.

PA saw an opportunity to make something out of nothing by sending out that dumb email. And it worked.

Look how many threads have been started in AW about the show. A few seconds they are mentioned on the air... and some people are acting like the show endorsed PA.

Remember, they're right now in court over an ex-PA author who published a family memoir that labeled her grandfather as a "warlock". Even though they later cancelled the contract and refused to print any more copies, they were still found legally liable for publishing the manuscript in the first place. I believe the court case is still unresolved, but it ain't pretty.

Yes, it is ongoing. Coincidentally, the family is suing for three million dollars.

In the back of my mind (female logic/intuition) I suspect PublishAmerica had a devious plot to get their name out to pull in more authors. If not, why on earth would they send out mass emails for everyone to watch the show?


Just about everything PA does is devious. This is no different than their declaring PA books are made into movies. They make a big thing about nothing in order to further their image of respectability.

If they weren't intrested in all the hoopla, they would have let it die a natural death and have nothing to do with the show.

My hope is that we will let it die.

[J. R. Tomlin]

No one is acting like he endorsed PA.

Don't degenerate to insulting people just because they disagree with you.

People have a very LEGITIMATE concern that the PA appearance on a popular show might help them scam more people. There might be many out there who would consider this, if not an endorsement, at least a sign of being legitimate.

It won't die whether we discuss it or not. Honestly, do you seriously think that this forum reaches most the Dr. Phil Show viewers? Please.

I find this a concern. I don't know that it is Dr. Phil's fault (much as I don't care for him or his show) if people take it that way. However, I would have liked to see at least a sentence or two devoted to protected his viewers from this scam.

If you disagree, fine since I disagree with your take that anyone who disagrees with you is a brainless twit who doesn't know that the Dr. Phil appearance didn't constitute an endorsement. As far as letting it die, apparently you seriously believe that discussing PA here somehow serves as an endorsement. Oh, please.

[Popeyesays]

Hey, Popeye, it's nice to see you again! I can't fathom anyone going on national television and airing their dirty laundry but I do question the writer/s/PublishAmerica's motive for having been placed in the situation. In the back of my mind (female logic/intuition) I suspect PublishAmerica had a devious plot to get their name out to pull in more authors. If not, why on earth would they send out mass emails for everyone to watch the show? If they weren't intrested in all the hoopla, they would have let it die a natural death and have nothing to do with the show.

See it this way..."Yeah, we can do wonders for our name if we let these poor souls go on air. Why, let's not let them sign a contract just yet but when we do, we will have laid the foundation for more signed contracts." I am not certain it wasn't a put up job in the first place and Dr. Phil was the pawn. If that is the case, I hope Dr. Phil comes back with both barrels flashing.

I honestly hope the women can lay aside their differences and move forward toward a postive life.

Joyce aka BeeBomb

Any indication that PA put the mother/daughter pair in contact with Dr. Phil's production staff? Of course, not. These people came all by themselves and the IMAGINED issue was the publishing contract. The host is a trained psychologist, certainly he can see through to the real issue. He called in a publisher's rep merely as a quick reality check.

How many people but we are going to recognize the publisher's name?

Damned few.

Regards,
Scott

[brianm]

No one is acting like he endorsed PA.
Don't degenerate to insulting people just because they disagree with you.

Some people are making a mountain out of a molehill. If that is insulting, they need to grow thicker skins.

People have a very LEGITIMATE concern that the PA appearance on a popular show might help them scam more people. There might be many out there who would consider this, if not an endorsement, at least a sign of being legitimate.

This was also my concern until I viewed the show. IMO, very few viewers would be able to tell you who the publisher was and the few that might have googled their name would have plenty of warning information to read about PA.

It won't die whether we discuss it or not. Honestly, do you seriously think that this forum reaches most the Dr. Phil Show viewers? Please.

I haven't a clue what you are trying to say here.

My hopes that the discussions would end are because 3-4 threads opened yesterday and two more today in the PA forum. UJ moved the ones from yesterday and I assume he will move the ones from today. IMO, it's a great deal of fuss over nothing.

I find this a concern. I don't know that it is Dr. Phil's fault (much as I don't care for him or his show) if people take it that way. However, I would have liked to see at least a sentence or two devoted to protected his viewers from this scam.

If the show was about scam companies would you have expected him to devote time on mother/daughter relationships?

If you disagree, fine since I disagree with your take that anyone who disagrees with you is a brainless twit who doesn't know that the Dr. Phil appearance didn't constitute an endorsement.

Now, you are attempting to put words in my mouth. Please quote where I called any member a brainless twit.

As far as letting it die, apparently you seriously believe that discussing PA here somehow serves as an endorsement. Oh, please.

You are new and do not know me. Therefore, I shall let this slip.

[jamiehall]

My hope is that we will let it die.

What purpose would that serve? Dr. Phil's team messed up on the research in a way that could be construed as treating one of the biggest scams in the history of writing scams as if it were a legitimate publisher. If Dr. Phil knew it was a scam, then why would the rep even be invited to the show?

Dr. Phil didn't need to take the focus off the mother/daughter relationship in order to go on a brief scam-busting side tour, but he could have done things differently so that his reputation wouldn't be in any risk, such as by NOT asking a PA rep on the show and by NOT mentioning the name of the publisher. I think a team running a show of that fame would have realized the potential for later embarrassment, and found a way to eliminate that potential by putting in small changes that would keep most of the show the same as it was. This tells me that either the research team is sloppy (because they didn't find out PA is a scam) or the rest of the team is sloppy (because they did find out PA is a scam but didn't care that there is a chance this could blow up in their faces).

Arguing that google will protect everyone is pointless, because (a) google doesn't protect people now and (b) if Dr. Phil invited a PA rep to his show and treated PA like a legitimate publisher, then why shouldn't people assume that PA is real?

Arguing that the Dr. Phil show is so sleazy that nobody will take a brief mention of PA seriously is also pointless because (a) the Dr. Phil show has an enormous audience that has not yet been scared away by sleazy topics and even a brief mention there reaches a far larger audience than the audience that reads Internet stuff about PA (b) if that audience is indeed dumber than average, then they are perfect victims for the scam and (c) the Dr. Phil show has far more power than online scambusters do.

No, Dr. Phil didn't endorse PA. But, by even inviting a rep to his show, he gave it an implied legitimacy that is very damaging. And, with all respect, I simply don't understand why such an event shouldn't be a topic of discussion in this forum.

[brianm]

What purpose would that serve? Dr. Phil's team messed up on the...

I am sniping the first part because it is obvious we are of a different opinion as to the affect this show had on viewers in regards to PA

Arguing that google will protect everyone is pointless, because (a) google doesn't protect people now and (b) if Dr. Phil invited a PA rep to his show and treated PA like a legitimate publisher, then why shouldn't people assume that PA is real?

I argued that google protects? READ WHAT I SAID.

... the few that might have googled their name would have plenty of warning information to read about PA.

Where in that passage do you see me saying anything about being protected?

People believe what they choose to believe. The best we can do is to furnish them proof and facts that PA is a vanity press who derives its income by selling its books to its authors.

Arguing that the Dr. Phil show is so sleazy that nobody will take a brief mention of PA seriously is also pointless because (a) the Dr. Phil show has an enormous audience that has not yet been scared away by sleazy topics and even a brief mention there reaches a far larger audience than the audience that reads Internet stuff about PA (b) if that audience is indeed dumber than average, then they are perfect victims for the scam and (c) the Dr. Phil show has far more power than online scambusters do.

Sleazy? Dumber than average? I said these words? Perhaps your take on what I have said about the show, but my exact words were...

After watching that drivel, I doubt many people will even remember the name of the publisher.

Definition:

Main Entry: 1driv·el

2 : to talk stupidly and carelessly

Which is exactly how I felt when I listened to the daughters talk about their mothers. Stupid, careless remarks they will come to regret when they have matured. Had it not been for the PA rep appearance, I would have returned to my writing.

No, Dr. Phil didn't endorse PA. But, by even inviting a rep to his show, he gave it an implied legitimacy that is very damaging. And, with all respect, I simply don't understand why such an event shouldn't be a topic of discussion in this forum.

We have made it a topic. We have discussed it. Apparently, some of us believe it was a non-event and some of us think is was an event worth discussing in five (5) different threads, three of which have already been moved.

I am of the opinion that it was a non-event.

You have a different opinion, and that’s fine. I respect that. You feel it was earth shattering, a fiasco, an event beyond belief, and unforgiveable.

Or did I just misquote you?

[DaveKuzminski]

One of the things I'm concerned with is not that viewers will remember PA's name from that program, but that PA's shills will boast about PA being invited to appear on the program thus imparting legitimacy to PA and giving the shills additional ammunition since very few new writers will bother to look up the archive transcript of that program to learn the truth. Even if they do, they'll likely read only far enough to see that a PA rep was actually there and assume that what the shill stated was entirely true. That one appearance will bring in more victims to PA than any shill could previously influence.

[Sheryl Nantus]

whoa, folks... sounds like we're all in need of some decaf and a group hug.

the show's out, the emails have been sent and the damage done - the only thing that can be done now is to send Dr. Phil notes and to post on the boards there (like some have already) about how much of a scam PA is. That's really all we can do... hopefully the show will consider doing an ep on PA/scammers in general or not. As far as PA using it - well, they've used anything and everything in the past from "great" movie deals to Presidential letters to justify themselves - this is just another false golden ring to pull in the victims.

PA will always be able to pull in the guillable and, sorry to say, the lazy who really believe that you can get three million dollars in three months. The daughter in this ep obviously didn't do any homework and it showed. But hopefully others will Google and do their research and not be pulled in like she and so many others are.

it's oot and aboot, as my countrymen would say... so let's not focus on the negative and get on the positive - such as the arbitration hearing happening in a few weeks. Hopefully that'll kick PA where it hurts and whatever small benefit they get from this, if any, (and I still believe it backfired on them no matter what anyone says) will be negated by the FAT MONETARY AWARD they'll have to cough up.

group hug?
anyone?
anyone?
Bueller?

:)

[brianm]

I'm always up for a hug! :Hug2:

And you are right... what's done is done.

[Popeyesays]

Frankly 'scam companies' is not Dr. Phil's pidgin. He is concerned about psychological and relationship therapy---period.

Regards,
Scott

[J. R. Tomlin]

Yeah, done is done. It's not like I'm a Dr. Phil fan. But I am sorry to see anything happen that these people can use for their benefit.

[Marie Pacha]

"Cuse me, is it too late to get a hug?

[JimmyD1318]

"Cuse me, is it too late to get a hug?


Here you go!:Hug2: Never too late for a hug!

[Marie Pacha]

THANK YOU!

[Komnena]

Maybe emails should be sent to shows that expose scams.

[brianm]

Jamie,

I believe that sometimes our irritation with this scam vanity press causes us to butt heads over nothing. For me, this was one of those circumstances.

Thank you for your clarification and apology. I, too, apologize and hold no ill feelings towards you or any other member of AW.

Well, except maybe Jersey Chick, because she can eat popcorn without gaining an ounce and still looks beautiful even after setting all of her hair on fire. :D

[brianm]

I so totally ROCK!

:e2headban


**slips Brian and Jimmy their cash**

Uh... $1.00? Is that the value you place on my work? One lousy dollar?

Next you'll be telling me you'll pay me 8% of net for additional services rendered.

I guess I should have read the contract more carefully.:cry:

[JimmyD1318]

When it comes to PA being on the 'Dr. Phil' show, I agree with brianm that it was pretty much a non-event. They were there pretty much as an after thought as the show was more focused on the feud between the mother and daughter than on a scum publisher.

[Jersey Chick]

Uh... $1.00? Is that the value you place on my work? One lousy dollar?

Next you'll be telling me you'll pay me 8% of net for additional services rendered.

I guess I should have read the contract more carefully.:cry:


Who? Me? :2angel:

With Dr. Phil - does anyone know how far in advance his show is taped? (I'm assuming it is) because I was thinking that PA might not have made a big deal of it because it turned out to not be a big deal and they'd have known it beforehand.

Or am I waaaay out in left field?

[tasha43055]

I was published by this company. PublishAmerica. I have noticed that they lie a lot. I know people have gotten out of their contracts with them. Anybody know how to get that done?

[DaveKuzminski]

I was published by this company. PublishAmerica. I have noticed that they lie a lot. I know people have gotten out of their contracts with them. Anybody know how to get that done?

Tell them you will not self-purchase any of your books and will not promote them to your friends and family. If they send you any insults or threats, post those on a web site, either yours or in a forum like this.

[Kevin Yarbrough]

Dr. Phil's show does deal with psychological problems and PA is right up his alley. If the staff would have done their research they could have seen the psychological problems that PA has created in their authors. That would be a show I would watch, Dr. Phil confronting PA on its practices to belittle, humiliate, and threaten their authors.

If PA isn't the defenition of psychological abuse then I don't know what else is.

[randallch]

As one who has had two books put into print (published) by Publish America, I can say that many among the comments posted on the Internet about Publish America are in all likelihood true.
Having spent twenty years in the U.S. Military Service and ten years as a civilian in a Civil Service environment, my profession was an automotive and construction equipment mechanic.
At no time did I ever dream that I would write a book, let alone four books. Yet, due to incidents that occurred in my life upon returning to what I considered my hometown, I felt compelled to start writing. My intent for writing was not to make money, but to inform people about what atrocities were being committed against us by our own governments. I quickly learned what atrocities our governments are also having us commit against each other.
In truth, Publish America's business practices and policies are no different than the other more "reputable" publishing companies. The entire publishing industry is about greed and censorship. This comment is probably going to upset many among the authors out there, but it is true. Believe me when I say, that free speech does not come free.
Greed is the motivating purpose behind copyright law. There is not one thought that is new and that has not already been put into practice at sometime throughout history. So, how can anyone claim "copyright" to any thought/idea. The whole purpose for copyright is to prevent someone else from making a profit from "your work". It takes approximately four months to acquire a copyright for one's literary work. The present cost for that copyright is $30. This is a first step in greed, and the first step in censorship.
Many among the complaints against Publish America are about money. It takes money to advertise. How many books do major publishing companies truly advertise? Truth be known, very few. How many authors truly make it big? Truth be known, very few. Perhaps one in ten thousand authors can make a living writing. The remaining writers? Well, only those who don't make it big truly know.
I attempted to go the "traditional" route with my first book. I sent letters to numerous agents listed in the Guide to Literary Agents and in the Writers Market, books for which I paid over $50 combined. I mailed somewhere between 30 and 40 letters to what I guessed to be the more promising agents. Most did not respond. The three or four that did respond were in the negative. That was approximately two months wasted.
From the publishers listed in the Writers Market, most required the author to go through an agent. If one cannot find an agent, then how does one get their book seen by a publisher? Answer: One doesn't, one can't. This is a huge step in censorship. Then the light dawned, if one does not know someone in the main stream publishing industry, such as a friend or relative, one is most likely not going to get their work read by a mainstream publisher.
Like Publish America, most publishers have writers in the thousands creating works to put to print. It is through selling a large volume in books that a publisher makes enough profit to survive. Having only a few authors that write a few books will not support a publishing company. Virtually all publishing companies are "writer mills" that have writers under contract in the thousands. Most among these writers never make it big and sell only a few books each year.
Print on Demand (PD) is becoming more and more popular throughout the publishing industry. Distributors cannot carry several hundred books of each title, or even ten books of each title. There over a hundred thousand titles available. To stock just a few of each title requires large warehouses with a sophisticated cataloging system. And, the cost involved for returning books to the publisher is enormous. So, since the computer became involved in book publishing, POD has become an inexpensive way for publishers to publish books.
There are numerous complaints about Publish America not "editing" the books it publishes. Truth be known, many books published by the most reputable publishers are not properly edited according to spelling and punctuation. I have found typos in many works published by the so called reputable publishers. Editing is not really about punctuation and typos. Editing is about censorship. A synonym for edit is censor.
Publishing editors decide what does or does not get printed in "your work". For the most part, spelling and punctuation are the writer's responsibility. I read a well advertised book allegedly written by a very popular person on a very popular TV news network. The book was one of the worst I had ever read. There was little in content, made little sense, and was written very poorly. Yet, this book was on the best seller list. I guess it helps to have one's own radio or TV program to promote one's book.
Did anyone notice that within three months after September 11, 2001, numerous books about 9/11 appeared in books stores? It took me over a year to write my first book, four months to get a copyright, and I never did find an agent. And, it took over 6 months to have it published by Publish America. So, how did all these books hit the streets within three months after 9/11? That is a question for all writers not included in the top 1% to think about.
Basically what this long dissertation is about is that the "fix" is in. The entire system is fixed so that only those the system want to make it big, makes it big.
So, writers like myself, who only want to inform people and are not out to make a profit from the information that everyone is entitled to receive, free from censorship, will use whatever means available, including companies like Publish America.
Will I use Publish America again? Probably not! I spent several thousand dollars on advertisement which, according to Publish America royalty statements, did absolutely little in promoting sales, thus did little to inform the people. Other than the books I personally purchased, to date, less than 100 books from each title sold. For my purposes, I came to realize that I would have been better off using the money to buy the books myself and give them away. This brings up another point. At no time did Publish America pressure me to purchase my own books.
So, my fourth and last book will be posted on the internet for free, as soon as I can learn how to set up and maintain a website. I may also pay the cost in having this fourth book printed locally and give it away for free. I am still looking into that avenue as well.
Back in 2002 and 2003, I made a decision to go with Publish America for the first two books written. As time passed and the more I learned, I grew unhappy with their policies. Yet, I had signed their contract, and as an adult, knew what I was signing. I will live according to their contract terms for those first two books. As the old saying goes, "There is no sense in crying over spilled milk".
Randall C. Hale

[Gravity]

The thing is, Randall, if all you wanted was to get information out, you could have gone with lulu.com, which does it for free (or as close to it as makes no matter). In addition you'd have retained all rights, instead of tying them up for seven years. But as you say, what's done is done. Best of luck to you, and a special thanks for your service to our country.

[Mystic]

Well said, Gravity!

[DaveKuzminski]

Randall, you're missing the main point. PublishAmerica (PA) isn't like the other publishers. First of all, it lies about many things. They claim to be a traditional publisher. There is no such thing. It's a term that PA made up to distinguish themselves from all the other vanity publishers. They admitted it in a media interview. In an arbitration hearing, PA admitted that their primary market happens to be their own authors. That is their second admission about being a vanity publisher. It doesn't matter that they don't charge up front. They manage that trick by blocking all the legitimate distribution channels in a way that the overwhelming majority of retailers will not order PA books so that PA authors find themselves with no alternative but to self-purchase if they want any chance of getting their book sold to readers.

Furthermore, PA does all it can to intimidate others, whether they're PA authors, critics, or innocent bystanders. PA bans their writers from their forum when the writers express their honest opinions and accurate facts about publishing. PA has even sent cops, fake and real, on bogus trips to authors homes. PA has libeled numerous critics. PA has even libeled innocent individuals who never once said anything about PA. PA did so simply because those innocent bystanders happened to know or be friends with a critic who had spoken out openly and honestly about PA.

When it comes down to it, PA's business practices are very different from reputable, commercial publishers whose editors honor the spirit of the contracts they sign rather than try to interpret the contract in a way meant to stiff the author and give every advantage possible to the business they serve.

The fact that you failed to interest an agent is not an indictment of the system. What it means can be manyfold. It could be that your writing is excellent for a manuscript, but unsatisfactory for a critique. It could mean that your offering was inopportune because they've already got a similar book in the pipeline or just sold. They're generally not going to tell you that because they they're not anxious to tip off other agents and create a smaller market for their own publishings. It could be that the assistant who dislikes your style of writing was in charge the day your manuscript or query arrived and he turned it down without the agent seeing it. Is it a perfect system? No, but it's not as broken as you might imagine. There's a method to the system just as you would use a system in diagnosing the problems with a vehicle. You don't inspect the tires if the engine won't turn over. The real literary agents generally know what they're doing because they often succeed in selling what they represent. Sure, they miss taking on a project that later turns out to be a blockbuster, but not every mechanic finds the problem in every vehicle. There are too many variations among all the models for any one mechanic to know that much.

Likewise, you've assumed that an agent is necessary without researching enough to learn that there are legitimate commercial publishers who will look at submissions without those being represented by an agent. Saying otherwise would be like stating that you couldn't get an honest mechanic, so rather than learn enough to do the job, you decided to go with the cheap guy who turned out to be a crook.

As far as censorship is concerned, it's not censorship unless the publisher stikes out true facts in your manuscript unless you've failed to document those facts in which case the publisher has to assume you failed to do the necessary research and sees no alternative but to excise something in order to prevent the necessity of a court trial for libel against the author and the publisher. That's called self-preservation, not censorship. You don't get to shout out "fire" in a crowded theater when there's no fire. That's not censorship, either. That's just common sense applied for the purpose of public safety. Besides, if you want to print something without documentation that would cause a reputable publisher to falter, you can always resort to self-publishing. Then you assume all the risk and that includes defending yourself should someone take offense and decide they can shut you up because you don't have enough money to properly defend yourself in court. It's the legal system's version of poker.

Also, recheck your facts on the cost of registering copyright. Additionally, copyright is automatic upon writing your manuscript. It's only the registration process that takes time.

As to writer mills, most publishers are trying to select work they believe the reading public will purchase. That's why they have a lot of authors. They're trying to anticipate public demand. PA doesn't. Their target market is their own authors, remember?

As to how long it takes for something to be written and published, that's driven by public demand. Some writers can write very quickly, particularly if they're organized and manage their time well. A number of writers are fully capable of producing a novel-length book in less than a month. If enough staff are provided for a book viewed as timely, it can be edited and polished sufficiently to be published and on the market in a very short time. Basing and judging all other writers upon your own abilities and constraints is like comparing apples, oranges, and bananas.

Finally, quit tagging yourself with the responsibility of understanding your contract with PA. Why? Because PA's contracts were put together by amateurs unfamiliar with intellectual property and because PA always interprets their contracts in their favor, not in the spirit in which the real publishing industry operates because they want you to succeed so they also make a lot of money. You're no more an IP expert than the staff at PA, so quit beating yourself up. Get over it. PA is conducting a fraud and you have a right to be disgusted with their operations and policies.

I haven't addressed every point you made because there are just too many where your information is wrong, much of it because your former sources were probably ill-informed. Instead, I'll suggest you ask around and get the straight facts. Then decide what your plans will be before you jump into the deep end of publishing once more.

[James D. Macdonald]

Sorry. According to the Oxford Dictionary, a vanity publisher is a company that publishes works at the author's expense. As far as I know, PA does not do this.

PublishAmerica does indeed publish books at the author's expense. See The Debate (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32966) for the proof of this spelled out in far more detail.

PublishAmerica is a vanity press.

[IceCreamEmpress]

The reason PublishAmerica is "attacked" more than other print-on-demand publishers is because they're the largest and most incompetent. They lie to their clients, they deliver substandard product, and they act unprofessionally.

I don't even think that "attack" is an appropriate word here: I think "called to account" is more accurate.

I'm not sure why people who write and edit and publish for a living shouldn't take this seriously.

[ResearchGuy]

. . .
PublishAmerica is a vanity press.
Just so. For those who want it spelled out in one narrative:


The new style [PublishAmerica]

The new style of vanity press lures authors with a promise of no fees and offer of a token advance on royalties (usually one dollar). It makes up its costs by inflating the price of books and by heavy-handed efforts to sell books in bulk (50 to 100 copies) to the authors.
For several years, PublishAmerica (PA; previously known by other names, including AmErica House) has passed itself off as a “traditional publisher,” a term the company invented to describe itself, and has relentlessly pursued writers through advertising and other promotions. It is the model of the new-style vanity press, and has been very successful in luring in authors. That success through deception calls for extended comments here.
The warning signs that PublishAmerica is a vanity press include these:
· Relentless attempts to recruit authors (commercial publishers aim their promotions at readers and book-buyers)
· A policy of accepting nearly anything, no matter how badly written or how unsuited for commercial publication (commercial publishers have to be selective)
· An almost exclusive emphasis on selling books to the authors themselves rather than to the public (commercial publishers sell to the public and do not depend on author purchases)
· A company-run message board, exclusively for use by its authors, that is kept focused on cheerleading by constant monitoring, deletion of posts that question any aspect of the company, and banning of troublesome posters (commercial publishers aim their websites at the reading public)
· A policy of declining second books from authors who have not bought enough copies of their first book (commercial publishers only care that an author’s previous books have sold well enough to the public)
· “Editing” that is largely limited to running a spell checker on the manuscript, often inserting errors in the process (commercial publishers edit and proof read manuscripts before publication)
· An option to print the manuscript exactly as submitted by the author, with a disclaimer inserted on the copyright page by PublishAmerica (no commercial publisher would ever entertain such a bizarre practice)
· Exclusive use of print-on-demand (POD) technology to print books only to order (commercial publishers buy print runs in the mid-thousands to tens or hundreds of thousands)
That PublishAmerica (PA) is an unselective vanity press does not prevent it from getting its hands on some fine manuscripts. Some books published by PublishAmerica are well written and of real merit. I helped to divert one genuinely outstanding manuscript from PublishAmerica as the contract awaited signing. That manuscript is now on its way to commercial publication by a small press.
Unfortunately, the good books that PA occasionally publishes are essentially unavailable to the trade, as bookstores do not stock POD books and PA makes ordering difficult in any event.
PA’s “returnability” option comes with a five percent discount to the bookstore (in contrast to the normal trade discount of 40 percent) and a ten percent restocking fee. Bookstores cannot afford to order the books under the “returnability” clause, as they are guaranteed to lose money on them.
Only occasionally—usually because the author has made a personal request—will a bookstore stock a PA title. In those cases, the author will probably have to supply the books on consignment or with a purchase guarantee (that is, entirely at the author’s risk).
Those limits of course also apply to print-on-demand titles from other publishers.


Backing up the the more generalized overview:


Any publisher that aims its marketing and promotion to authors rather than to readers and that nonetheless implies in any way that it is a legitimate commercial publisher is a vanity press. Some are even more deceptive or exploitive than others, but all are vanity presses. An easy tip-off is any form of invitation to “become a published author.” That is a sure sign of a vanity press. It will publish pretty much anything submitted to it, for a fee or with equivalent practices and conditions, cannot gets its books into bookstores, and is held in disrepute by book reviewers, librarians, and industry professionals.
For an example of a legitimate commercial publisher’s site, look at www.randomhouse.com (http://www.randomhouse.com), the Random House website. That is an example of a publisher that seeks readers and is not trolling for naïve writers who are hunting for a publisher. In fact, it is hard to find any information there that is directed to would-be authors.
Compare the Random House site to, for example:

· www.dorrancepublishing.com (Dorrance), or

· www.publishamerica.com (PublishAmerica), or

· www.iuniverse.com (iUniverse), or

· www.trafford.com (Trafford)

Each appeals to authors, not to readers, except incidentally—if even that. Among that list, Dorrance is old-style vanity, PublishAmerica is new-style vanity, and iUniverse and Trafford are subsidy publishers (marginal vanity publishers).



FWIW.

--Ken

[ResearchGuy]

. . . How do you explain, for instance, the many authors who are quite happy with PA?. . .
One or more of the following:
A. Low standards.
B. Complete ignorance of how legitimate commercial publishing works.
C. Goal was only to make book available to friends and family or some other specific, limited audience (which, I would add, is an entirely respectable goal for those who choose it).
D. Unwillingness or inability to buy or perform the tasks required to use Lulu or Lightning Source or to pay for the services of a subsidy press like iUniverse (in my view, also an entirely respectable consideration).

This reflects my own observations locally. Don't know that there are "many," but I know some. I also know some who were not happy at all.

--Ken

[PVish]

Originally Posted by Kendra
How do you explain, for instance, the many authors who are quite happy with PA?

Like these (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=44141788&groupID=106226682&adTopicID=19&Mytoken=EE31194C-4833-4D5A-984DADE22948D4B749855704)? Oh, wait. They're not all happy.
And, on another MySpace (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=43459286&groupID=106226682&adTopicID=19&Mytoken=9A710B06-3BD7-433F-860EE8E73E59D75360960243) thread, they don't seem too thrilled with PA at all.

[Komnena]

How many advance review copies does PA send out to reviewers and bookstores?

[James D. Macdonald]

In the final analysis everyone must make his own choices.


In the final analysis that's my main objection to PA. Their advertising is so deceptive that new authors are not able to make an informed decision. Just compare their PA Books Are Being Made Into Movies! claim (a claim that fooled at least one new PA author who's posted here in the past couple of days) with the reality.

[Christine N.]

Yes, PA will reject a second book due to lack of sales from previous books. Which isn't that much different from most publisher's policies on repeat submissions from their authors. EXCEPT that in the case of PA, it's a matter of the author not buying enough copies, instead of the book doing poorly on the open market.

[DaveKuzminski]

And that's especially true of novels. Nonfiction books from somewhere like PA might have a chance, because you could do a search for, say, "Hobby Horses of the 12th Century" (or some other obscure search. <G> Say, MBP Sydrome.) And you'll get good results. (However, I do have to confess that I'd be hesitant to buy a PA nonfiction book to use as a research source, simply because we know that their quality control -- fact checker? Whazzat? -- is basically non-existant. Quality matters, and the PA authors have all been painted -- not necessarily fairly, but this is life -- by the icky reputation of their publisher.)


Not to mention the outright plagiarism by some PA non-fiction authors such as the one nicknamed "cancer-guy" whose book on cancer was almost one hundred percent plagiarized, except possibly for his name and the PA name on the spine.

[JulieB]

I have NEVER had to buy my own books. I was NEVER asked to do my own marketing. What did I do to get into a bookstore? NOTHING. Other than sign on the dotted line and cash the check.

Somehow, D-list author that I am, I suspect that I am not the exception to the rule.

[James D. Macdonald]

Some of the writers who go with PA appear to have unreal expectations, so they are at least partly to blame.

Those are expectations that PA creates and fosters with false and misleading advertising, at times with outright lies. They ruthlessly censor their messageboard to keep any hint of the real situation from appearing. I put the blame at PA's feet. You don't see the same kind or level of complaints against AuthorHouse or Xlibris, because those two vanities don't use deceptive advertising.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Con games are illegal. If PA were truly guilty of this they would be charged with fraud, and would no longer be in business.

Con games can, like Amway distributors, skate along the line of getting charged with criminal acts.

Check out the analysis of their contract that's stuck ot the top of the PA forum. It's got enough impressive-sounding bullshit in it to make a novice writer feel like they are getting a great deal. It also has enough loopholes - in combination with Maryland law - to let them appear to promise a great deal while delivering nothing.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

The market place determines whether a business will survive or not. And despite the best efforts of disgruntled authors and sites like these, PA is still in business. So obviously, there is an ongoing demand for the type of service they provide. The fact that PA is also operating within the law makes the case against them even more difficult.

No, it's that there is a never-ending supply of fools for them to fleece.

Their service is selling books to authors, as their founder admitted in court. They make a token check for child porn, run a spelling checker, introduce a few typos and slap on a cheezy cover made from free clip art. If the authors can be conned into biuying an average of 50-75 books (for publicity, family, etc.) each, Publish America can make money.

Real publishers, on the other hand, make money by selling books to readers, not authors.

[Christine N.]

I know of two people who have said they did not buy any of their own PA books.

No, wait. Three. Jean Marie, who worked her a$$ off to get a single store to stock her book on a regular basis. Dick (pipesmoker) whose book is so very niche that he probably sells well for a PA book, and a certain lady from the British Isles who seemed to think very much like our friend Kendra. In that she believed that PA wasn't vanity and that people didn't need to make informed choices. She also was excellent at strawman arguments.

I'm sure there are more that didn't buy their books. Those are three I can think of right off the top of my head.

I'm sure Jim is right, Kendra's not a reincarnation of this one person. It's strange how some people follow their lines of thought to come to the conclusions they do.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'd like to hear from Kendra exactly how she went about getting a book rejected by PA.

They do have a minimum word limit, and they reject books that have "Willem" or "Miranda" as characters, but there isn't a lot else that'll stop 'em.

[Joanna_S]

Now THAT's a story worthy of the thread. Bravo to your friend!

[James D. Macdonald]

I've actually seen a PA book in a store (to bring this back on topic). ONE copy of ONE PA book in ONE store in NJ.

I bet the author lived within 25 miles of the store.

[D.L.Steele]

I wish I had found this forum several months ago. I'm a new writer and I'm sad to say that I did sign a contract with PA. It was a short work of around 12,000 words, so at least I didn't waste my time on them with a novel...but still being duped sucks. I'm still trying to come up with that idea for a good novel, so i'll be better prepared when I do have a novel worth publishing.

[JulieB]

Welcome to AW! Have a cup of coffee. Jimmy will be along with the popcorn.

Glad to hear you're working on another book.

[Gravity]

Criminey. Twelve thousand words? I thought the minimum PA threshold used to be higher.

[DaveKuzminski]

Criminey. Twelve thousand words? I thought the minimum PA threshold used to be higher.

I suppose they're getting desperate for writers to victimize.

[JimmyD1318]

Welcome to AW! Have a cup of coffee. Jimmy will be along with the popcorn.

Glad to hear you're working on another book.

*HUFF!* HUFF!* HUFF!*


Man...I'm out of breath! Soccer Mom released a Toady Bug in the Overflow thread and I had to grab my POPCORN and run! I met Steel on the way over here! Hi again Steel! Have another bag of POPCORN on me!:popcorn:

Mmmmm...I think I'll join you! MUNCH! MUNCH! MUNCH! Ahhh...lovely POPCORN!:popcorn:

[DaveKuzminski]

Man...I'm out of breath! Soccer Mom released a Toady Bug in the Overflow thread and I had to grab my POPCORN and run!

Nah, that was a fake. Real toady bugs have fangs, claws, and horns.

[Jersey Chick]

Yeah, but those three eyes are waaay freaky! Maybe it's one of them toxic waste toady bugs...

[DaveKuzminski]

Soccer Mom would never release a dangerous toady bug among her friends. Nor would she release a toxic toady among them, either. That's just one of those friendly toadys that likes to hang around writers because vicious paper bugs are attracted to their writing supplies.

By the way, they're easy to train. Just give them some bugs and they'll even do some beta reading for you. For them, it's an advantage having three eyes because it makes it easy for them to multitask in guarding the paper while reading. ;)

[Jersey Chick]

:ROFL:

I'll take that under advisement - maybe a bulletin should be put up in the Beta readers forum? :D

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I wish I had found this forum several months ago. I'm a new writer and I'm sad to say that I did sign a contract with PA. It was a short work of around 12,000 words, so at least I didn't waste my time on them with a novel...but still being duped sucks. I'm still trying to come up with that idea for a good novel, so i'll be better prepared when I do have a novel worth publishing.


First, welcome to AW. It's good to meet you.

Secondly, trying to come up with a new idea can be tough when you realize you've just been shafted, but you can do it.

Thirdly, although I've not read your work, try not to put your writing down so much. Just because PA got hold of it, doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. I've read several PA books over the last few years, and a few of them were quite decently written.

Finally, I'm glad you found the Water Cooler. You'll find lots of good information about the business, and being able to talk with other writers, both aspiring and professional, can be of enormous encouragement to some of PA's victims -- like it was with me.

Have a good day, and again, welcome.

:)

[Caro]

I'm a new writer and I'm sad to say that I did sign a contract with PA. It was a short work of around 12,000 words, so at least I didn't waste my time on them with a novel...but still being duped sucks. I'm still trying to come up with that idea for a good novel, so i'll be better prepared when I do have a novel worth publishing.

Welcome, D.L. Sorry you got sucked into the PA vortex, but glad you're here now.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm a new writer and I'm sad to say that I did sign a contract with PA.

Take the Pledge:

Since my publisher is not a vanity or subsidy press and has nothing in common with vanity or subsidy presses, I hereby swear or affirm that I will never put the word PublishAmerica on the Pay-to line of a check or money order, or give them my credit card number.

[necia phoenix]

I wish I had found this forum several months ago. I'm a new writer and I'm sad to say that I did sign a contract with PA. It was a short work of around 12,000 words, so at least I didn't waste my time on them with a novel...but still being duped sucks. I'm still trying to come up with that idea for a good novel, so i'll be better prepared when I do have a novel worth publishing.


Welcome to AW. :welcome:

There are great people all over this site. I have learned a lot since stumbling across this place.

[D.L.Steele]

This is a great forum. I've only been here two days, and I'm already hooked. I'm glad I found this forum :D

[ResearchGuy]

The book reviewed in the linked article in Knowledge Quest, an American Library Association publication, was barely saved from a PA contract two and a half years ago thanks in large part to the information on the predecessor of this thread (the original NEPAT). The book's author was discouraged by real publishers' repeated rejections of her query and was tempted to consider PA by some acquaintances who were shills/dupes.

See http://www.ala.org/ala/aasl/aaslpubsandjournals/kqweb/kqarchives/volume36/361/361umbach.cfm (http://www.ala.org/ala/aasl/aaslpubsandjournals/kqweb/kqarchives/volume36/361/361umbach.cfm)

Or for convenience: http://tinyurl.com/3xp9aa (http://tinyurl.com/3xp9aa)

--Ken

[Sean D. Schaffer]

The book reviewed in the linked article in Knowledge Quest, an American Library Association publication, was barely saved from a PA contract two and a half years ago thanks in large part to the information on the predecessor of this thread (the original NEPAT). The book's author was discouraged by real publishers' repeated rejections of her query and was tempted to consider PA by some acquaintances who were shills/dupes.

...Snipped.

--Ken


My congratulations to the author. Right on!

:hooray:

[necia phoenix]

This is a great forum. I've only been here two days, and I'm already hooked. I'm glad I found this forum :D

this forum is crack man.
I can never get enough :D

We are glad you found it also.

[randallch]

When all is said and done, I believe that I have a responsibility to live with the choices I make. PA may not be the best publisher to deal with, but from what I have read in several self proclaimed "vanity publisher" contracts, I could have paid up to $17,000 to have a book published. At least with Publish America, the book was published and I did not have to pay anything. And, at no time did PA force me to purchase my books. Any books I purchased was through individual choice.
Can anyone name one publisher that provides more than one or two complimentary books to the author?
I am too old and have more important things to do than spend all my waking hours looking for an agent and publisher. I spent months looking for an agent for my first book and could not even get a nibble. Another PA author I met recommended PA.
Anyone who does not believe that the publishing industry is in it for the money is kidding themselves. Once my first book was published by PA, I was contacted by several writer's magazines wanting me to sign up for a subscription. I received inquires from writer's organizations wanting me to join, for a fee, etc.
Fewer than 5% of books published ever get adequate advertisement or become best sellers.
Obviously PA is not for every author. Obviously PA has gained a bad reputation within the Publishing industry.
I would like to hear from authors who have books published through the more reputable publishers. What is your publishers name? How many among you have books on the best seller list? Does your publisher have you pay for books that you order? Does your publisher provide you a discount for the books you might order? Did you have to go through an agent to get your book considered for publication by the publisher? How much time did you spend seeking an agent and/or publisher for your book?

[Sean D. Schaffer]

When all is said and done, I believe that I have a responsibility to live with the choices I make. PA may not be the best publisher to deal with, but from what I have read in several self proclaimed "vanity publisher" contracts, I could have paid up to $17,000 to have a book published. At least with Publish America, the book was published and I did not have to pay anything. And, at no time did PA force me to purchase my books. Any books I purchased was through individual choice.

First, welcome to the Water Cooler. :welcome: It's good to have you here.

Secondly, you could have done worse where money is concerned, true. But were you searching for a vanity house or a commercial publishing house? When I signed with PA in 2003, I was of the understanding they were NOT a vanity house at all. However, the truth came through to me shortly after receiving the cover to my book. I realized they were not what they had insinuated themselves to be, because to put it bluntly, they did not produce a professional-quality product.

Thirdly, most everyone here knows you're not required to buy your own books, but you most certainly are encouraged to do so. Heavily encouraged, as I quite clearly remember from the many emails I received from PA.

Can anyone name one publisher that provides more than one or two complimentary books to the author?Tor, Baen, and just about any other legitimately commercial press there is out there.

I am too old and have more important things to do than spend all my waking hours looking for an agent and publisher. I spent months looking for an agent for my first book and could not even get a nibble. Another PA author I met recommended PA.1) Stephen King wrote, in his book On Writing, that if you're impatient to get published, by all means go to a vanity house. But the thing is, you could have done so much better than PA. Heck, I can think of a couple self-pubbing companies that you could have easily put your book through and set your own price for your book. Curiosity strikes: what is the price for one volume of your book? Mine was $21.95 for a 259-page trade paperback. I'm sure the prices have gone up since then, but for a comparable trade paperback from a commercial house, the price might have been as high as $14.99. The astronomical price of my book -- and any PA book out there -- is one thing PA doesn't tell its authors about up-front.

2) The fact a PA author recommended them, makes me think that likely either they do not know the business very well, or that they were in what some people call the 'honeymoon stage' of their contract. The honeymoon stage is where they've just been accepted and basically are overjoyed that their work has been given 'the chance it deserves'. The ugliness of PA's ways are usually not apparent until they have provided the author with edits or with a cover ... or with a price for their book.

Anyone who does not believe that the publishing industry is in it for the money is kidding themselves. Once my first book was published by PA, I was contacted by several writer's magazines wanting me to sign up for a subscription. I received inquires from writer's organizations wanting me to join, for a fee, etc.Well, yeah, the publishing industry is in it for the money. That's the way business works.


Fewer than 5% of books published ever get adequate advertisement or become best sellers.Where do you find this information? Also, what is your definition of 'adequate advertisement'? Not trying to sound snide, but what kind of money is PA putting into the advertisements for your book?

Mine? I paid all the money to advertise my work. You'll find the majority of PA authors do.

Obviously PA is not for every author. Obviously PA has gained a bad reputation within the Publishing industry.Obviously. On both counts. Think for just a moment, why that might be. Is it because they're afraid of competition from a company that produces sub-par volumes and unprofessional quality, as well as providing its customers with prices so high that most people will not buy them? Or is it possibly that the publishing industry actually sees PA for what it is: a scam, perpetrated upon its authors through double-talk and pep-talk, offers to buy one's own book(s), and virtually no effort upon the publisher's part to sell the books?

I would like to hear from authors who have books published through the more reputable publishers. What is your publishers name? How many among you have books on the best seller list? Does your publisher have you pay for books that you order? Does your publisher provide you a discount for the books you might order? Did you have to go through an agent to get your book considered for publication by the publisher? How much time did you spend seeking an agent and/or publisher for your book?Sadly, I cannot answer these questions, as I've not been legitimately published. But if I know Uncle Jim (James D. Macdonald), who is legitimately published through several different houses, I can see a line-by-line coming soon in your future.

Of course, he's not the only author here who is published through major houses, but he's the first to come to my mind.


I would like to point out that I really do appreciate your coming to this thread and discussing the topic at hand. It's very difficult for some people to respond to this stuff. I do have one majorly serious question for you though: are you coming here of your own accord, or is someone harassing you on your website, telling you they'll only leave you alone if you respond to threads like this one?

I'm always curious about that, because that is how I came upon this site. They call people like that 'guestbook slammers' or 'guestbook slimers'. They are not nice people, and if they're found to be a member here, they're immediately banned from these boards. In other words, you'll find the people here really do care about other writers. They might have their quirks, but they're all human just like you.

Finally, believe it or not, I do honestly wish you the very best with your books. PA books are a hard sell for many reasons, but that does not automatically make them bad books.

Stick around, and look at some of the other threads and forums on AW. I'm sure you'll find this is much more than just talk about PA.

[Queen of Swords]

Hi randall, and welcome to the board!

PA may not be the best publisher to deal with, but from what I have read in several self proclaimed "vanity publisher" contracts, I could have paid up to $17,000 to have a book published.

As Sean said, you could have done worse when it came to vanity publishers. But there are other publishers besides vanity ones. Think of someone paying you $17,000 for the right to publish your book. That can happen with a legitimate publisher.

At least with Publish America, the book was published and I did not have to pay anything.

Didn't you pay to register the copyright? I've seen at least one post from an author on the PA message board saying she had to do that.

I am too old and have more important things to do than spend all my waking hours looking for an agent and publisher.

If being published was your only goal, then that's fine. No arguments there.

A concern I have with PA is that many authors don't just want two complimentary copies of their book to hold in their hands. They want their book on the shelves of stores "from sea to shining sea". They want actual publicity and marketing and distribution, in other words, and PA doesn't give it to them. So while they might have saved the time and energy of searching for an agent or a legitimate publisher, they lose it in the time and energy (and money) that they spend trying to market their book. I say "trying" because the product is often not of a quality that booksellers expect. That's another way that PA stiffs its authors.

Looking for an agent or a publisher is an important part of being commercially published (as opposed to being vanity published). Does it take time? Of course. But so do most of the rewarding and worthwhile experiences out there. A PhD, for instance, usually takes a minimum of three years to achieve, unless one goes with a diploma mill which issues a certificate much more quickly and for less work. Likewise, being commercially published takes time and effort, unless one goes with a vanity publisher such as PA.

I spent months looking for an agent for my first book and could not even get a nibble.

Many first novels aren't good enough to be published. I don't say that to hurt your feelings. I say that because it's true. An ice skater doesn't win a competition with her first skate. Maybe she'll win it with her hundredth. But if she gives up at the ninety-ninth try, where does that leave her?

Anyone who does not believe that the publishing industry is in it for the money is kidding themselves.

Of course they're in it for the money. Why shouldn't they be? I'm in it primarily because I love writing, but I want to earn money from that writing. That's one reason I'd like an advance higher than $1.00.

I can't answer any of your questions since I haven't had a book published (though I do have a manuscript out on submission via an agent). However, I hope you stick around and enjoy your time here. :)

[triceretops]

Permit me to doff my fedora and welcome you, Randall, and offer a hearty handclasp. Gak. I sound like W.C. Fields.

No argument that the book industry is in it for the bucks. Big time. However, they want and glean ALL of that money from the readers, which pays them, and pays you, the writer with reasonable royalties and most often times, an advance. PA has designed their company to make it impossible for you to reach a readership that is not outside your own family and friends. The ONLY way they survive is to sell your book back to you for resale. If Commercial publishers were to stop selling books to their own authors, they would still continue to prosper. If PA discontinued selling books to their own authors, they would fold tomorrow. Hence, vanity.

I'm small potatoes, and these (medium-sized) publishers have been bought out and no longer exist but...

Betterway Publications, Crozet Virginia. Advance=$1,500--25 free copies, 50% discount. No agent.

Price Stern & Sloan, Los Angeles, CA. Advance=$2,000--20 free copies,
45% discount. No agent. Part of Penguin now.

I have two other small press publishers, and both beat any PA deal hands down. And both of these publishers are within reach of any competent writer willing to send out submissions.

It took me a little over a year to land an agent. That was sending out three books and suffering over 145 rejections. It was book #3 that got the agent. I've since written four more books, totalling seven in 32 months.

And Randall, I'm one of the older writers.

Tri

[Jersey Chick]

Can anyone name one publisher that provides more than one or two complimentary books to the author?
One of my publishers provides me with ten copies, as per my contract.

I spent months looking for an agent for my first book and could not even get a nibble.

Unfortunately, this is a very short time period to find an agent. It can happen quickly, but it doesn't usually.

Anyone who does not believe that the publishing industry is in it for the money is kidding themselves.
Sure they are, and though I am also one who writes because it's what I do, I'm not at all unhappy about being paid to do something I love.

I would like to hear from authors who have books published through the more reputable publishers. What is your publishers name?
I have books coming out with The Wild Rose Press and Samhain Publishing.

How many among you have books on the best seller list? I fail to see what this has to do with anything - of all the books published by legitimate commercial houses, the percentage of books on the best seller list is smaller than those not on it.

Does your publisher have you pay for books that you order? I think so, I'd have to go back and look at my contract(s). But for signings and the like, bookstore would be able to order it - since quite a few chains stock Samhain books and Wild Rose books are finding their way into B&Ns.

Does your publisher provide you a discount for the books you might order? Yes, but I'd have to go back and look to see what the discount is.

Did you have to go through an agent to get your book considered for publication by the publisher?
No. I don't have an agent. Yet.

How much time did you spend seeking an agent and/or publisher for your book?
I submitted a partial to Wild Rose at the beginning of the summer. I recieved a request for a full about a week later. The offer was made late July/early August.

I submitted a query and partial to Samhain in August. 24 hours later I had a request for a full. A contract was offered approximately 30 days later.

Just my $0.02 - FWIW.

[Christine N.]

Randall,

A few months? That's all? Really that's a tiny amount of time to spend looking for an agent. Many spend years. Personally I spent weeks just researching a list of agents. Then I had my query letter looked at here, after a bout of rejections, and they helped me clean it up. I decided to go directly to small publishers, and did get an acceptance after a few more months.

But it could have easily taken years, and that would have been par for the course.

I have two publishers, four contracts. One publisher gives me ten copies of EACH format of my books they publish, the other I negotiated for copies, I think each contract had a different amount specified. Anyway, the author copies are usually the easiest thing to negotiate in any contract. Big whoop, you want more copies, they give you more copies. Not usually a deal breaker.

I'm with LBF/Lachesis/Hadrosaur division, and I have a retail arrangement with them - standard 40% discount, returnable, AND I get royalties. I only have this because I do quite a few events outside of bookstores and it works for both of us. I'm also with Samhain, who has books in bookstores, and I'm not sure if I can get re-sale books. If not, no biggie, since they're in stores and have a bigger distribution and name than my other publisher.

They're both different, and both legitimate. I think Samhain offered me the first contract two months after they requested the full. Actually, first it was a rejection with request to rewrite. I did the rewrite, THEN got the contract. I think it was a total of two months.

It's possible to get the book in print without having to stoop to going with PA. You first need to have a good book, and I think that's where many go wrong. The book or even the query, isn't capturing their attention. So they think it's the industry and not their book.

If you just want copies, go to lulu or createspace. With createspace you get an Amazon listing, so you're getting exactly what PA gives you.

[DeadlyAccurate]

Can anyone name one publisher that provides more than one or two complimentary books to the author?

The only publisher I have at the moment is Necromancer Games, which publishes Dungeons & Dragons adventures. They provide me with six copies.

Fewer than 5% of books published ever get adequate advertisement or become best sellers.

Some is still better than none.

I would like to hear from authors who have books published through the more reputable publishers. What is your publishers name?

I would be willing to bet there's at least one, if not half a dozen, authors on this board published with every major house and every major imprint in the US. Not to mention the mid-sized and small houses (plus micropresses and e-publishers.)

How many among you have books on the best seller list?

I know John Elder Robison (http://www.amazon.com/Look-Me-Eye-Life-Aspergers/dp/0307395987) (username here is johnrobison) hit the NYT list his first week out. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, though. Very, very few people ever reach those lists, but there are still thousands of books that people still buy off the shelves.

But hey, if you get published by a commercial publisher, at least you have a chance of hitting those lists. With PA, your chances of getting on the bestseller lists is zero.

How much time did you spend seeking an agent and/or publisher for your book?

Ten years to find an agent. My novels haven't sold yet. My books are worth more than a dollar, though, so I'm willing to give it time.

[edgyllama]

8 years here, no agent, but I've sold to a couple of small presses. One press gave me 5 free copies, the other 25, plus a poster version of the spiffy cover art they commissioned for me.

[DeadlyAccurate]

...plus a poster version of the spiffy cover art they commissioned for me.

That reminds me, for both of my Necromancer Games adventures, they commissioned an artist for the color cover, another for the interior black-and-white sketches, and a cartographer for the maps. The cover art is real art, not stock photography (I can't tell if it's oil or watercolor, because I don't know enough about painting, but it's completely original work designed solely for my adventure).

[Sheryl Nantus]

I would like to hear from authors who have books published through the more reputable publishers. What is your publishers name? How many among you have books on the best seller list? Does your publisher have you pay for books that you order? Does your publisher provide you a discount for the books you might order? Did you have to go through an agent to get your book considered for publication by the publisher? How much time did you spend seeking an agent and/or publisher for your book?

1) Mundania Press
2) They publish Piers Anthony - hardly small potatoes, so I'm in good company.
3) If I order them, I would pay... what's the point of that question?
4) Yep, a standard 40% discount. However, I haven't received a plethora of emails asking me/offering me "deals" to buy my own books. Haven't bought a single one from them yet.
5) Nope, just submitted straight up. Eight months later they offered a contract.
6) Spent less than a year.

sounds like the usual PA dreck about the publishing industry, etc etc etc.

maybe you should do some research before you start smearing all publishers with the same filthy brush as PA. If all you wanted was to be published, you could have used Lulu and at least kept part of your wallet shut.

:D

[JimmyD1318]

Hi Randall, nice to see you again.

When all is said and done, I believe that I have a responsibility to live with the choices I make. PA may not be the best publisher to deal with, but from what I have read in several self proclaimed "vanity publisher" contracts, I could have paid up to $17,000 to have a book published. At least with Publish America, the book was published and I did not have to pay anything.

How much have you spent in trying to market your book? How much have you spent in buying copies of your book? If you sent money to PA, then you paid to be published.


And, at no time did PA force me to purchase my books. Any books I purchased was through individual choice.

That is what PA is hoping and banking on. They make their money from their authors, not readers.


Can anyone name one publisher that provides more than one or two complimentary books to the author?

Just about any legitimate publisher offers more than two complimentary copies to a writer. My contract says I will get fifteen copies.


I am too old and have more important things to do than spend all my waking hours looking for an agent and publisher.

You spent the time to write a book, it's only fair to yourself and your work to spend the time to find it a good home.


I spent months looking for an agent for my first book and could not even get a nibble.

That is just the way it is. If the writing is good enough, an agent will want to pick you up. If it is not, they won't.


Another PA author I met recommended PA.

That is the biggest crime of PA right there.

Anyone who does not believe that the publishing industry is in it for the money is kidding themselves.

What's your point with this? Of course they are out to make money. Isn't that what being a business is all about?


Once my first book was published by PA, I was contacted by several writer's magazines wanting me to sign up for a subscription. I received inquires from writer's organizations wanting me to join, for a fee, etc.

They were more than likely scam outfits like PA.


Fewer than 5% of books published ever get adequate advertisement or become best sellers.

0% of PA books published ever get adequate
advertisement or become best sellers.

Obviously PA is not for every author.

Only for those who don't take their time to do research of how publishing works.


Obviously PA has gained a bad reputation within the Publishing industry.

Because they are a scam company that has hurt a lot of writers and crushed their dreams.


I would like to hear from authors who have books published through the more reputable publishers. What is your publishers name?

Blu Phi'er.



How many among you have books on the best seller list?

For me? None yet...maybe never. But my goal is to just write and if a few people like what I write then I'm happy.


Does your publisher have you pay for books that you order?

If I want to order some for gifts...yes. For book signings and things like that they work with the book store to order them. I don't pay anything.


Does your publisher provide you a discount for the books you might order?

Yes...50% discount according to my contract.

Did you have to go through an agent to get your book considered for publication by the publisher?

No...I didn't.


How much time did you spend seeking an agent and/or publisher for your book?

I spent nearly two years trying to find a home for my first book. I was nearly scammed by PA. But luckly...I found this place that saved me from that. Getting published is one of the hardest things someone can try to do Randall. But...that is also what makes it so worth the time and energy to do it. It's up to you if you want to put that much energy and time into it. Sorry...no one is going to just give it to you just because you wrote a book.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, that's my favorite part.

"I'm too old and have more important things to do than look for an agent and publisher"

Then you don't care enough about your book, if it's not important to you. Obviously. So perhaps PA WAS the perfect choice for you. I'm completely serious. If it wasn't important enough for you to put in the time, after you put in the time to write the book (which I'm wondering how much time was spent in that endeavor) to search for proper publishing, then your book must not be very important to you. That's fine, some people write for fun and not passion or profit. I still think lulu is a better alternative, but if you didn't want to put in the time to format and such, then I guess you got what you wanted.

Other people want more. PA isn't going to give it to them.

[edgyllama]

That reminds me, for both of my Necromancer Games adventures, they commissioned an artist for the color cover, another for the interior black-and-white sketches, and a cartographer for the maps. The cover art is real art, not stock photography (I can't tell if it's oil or watercolor, because I don't know enough about painting, but it's completely original work designed solely for my adventure).

I still play RPGs and draw my own maps. My cover art was based on clip art but the artist used it as a base since it was an ebook and all digital. Came out great.

[IceCreamEmpress]

At least with Publish America, the book was published and I did not have to pay anything.

You didn't have to pay in advance, you mean. PublishAmerica recoups the upfront costs charged by other printing services in its inflated per-book price.

I would like to hear from authors who have books published through the more reputable publishers. What is your publishers name?

I've been published with Random House, The New Press, and St. Martin's Press.

How many among you have books on the best seller list?

Not me, except for local or very specialized lists.

Does your publisher have you pay for books that you order?

Why would I have to order my own books? The publishers send out review copies and complimentary copies. If I'm doing a signing at a store, the publishers send books to the store; if I'm doing a signing at another venue (conference or similar), the publishers send books on consignment, and I can return them. I guess I would pay the regular author's discounted price if I kept leftover books from a signing consignment.


I've also self-published and micropublished and have worked with micropublishers. Although it's true that PublishAmerica is cheaper than many vanity presses, it's not a cost-effective self-publishing solution, especially considering its poor quality.

[Toothpaste]

What is your publishers name? In the states: Weinstein Books (formerly Miramax), UK/Commonwealth: Scholastic. And also sold to France, Romania, Greece, Italy and Germany.

How many among you have books on the best seller list? Not on the best seller list (but this is my first novel and it has only been out for 2 months), but am currently at 6,829 on Amazon. Which isn't too shabby.

Does your publisher have you pay for books that you order? Well I did get 25 copies of my book (from each of my publishers) for free. This of course isn't counting the 20 advance reader copies I was sent during the summer (in case you don't know what they are, they are soft bound version of your books that haven't yet gone through the final editing process. These books are sent out to bookbuyers/libraries/reviewers etc to create early buzz, usually several months before your book is published), or all the free copies my publisher sends to reviewers post publication date etc that don't go through me.

Does your publisher provide you a discount for the books you might order? I get a huge discount when/if I order books. I do this when I go to schools, as after I do a presentation the kids invariably want to buy the books. If I run out however, it is nice that I can say "You can get it in any bookstore." I doubt PA authors can say that.

Did you have to go through an agent to get your book considered for publication by the publisher? Yes. But of course I didn't even try without an agent. I knew that not only would an agent get me a publisher but they would be able to negotiate contracts for me, get the best advance possible, sell foreign rights etc. I wanted someone who knew the biz on my side. Seeing as I know very little about it.

How much time did you spend seeking an agent and/or publisher for your book? Well that's tricky. The day after I sent out my letter etc, I got a call for a full. Two months later I was asked to edit some of my work. I did (OMG it made my book so much better). After another month, I signed with my agent. 4 weeks after that, Scholastic made their offer. I will not deny that that is awfully quick in the world of publishing, but I was expecting it to take much more time. If you aren't willing to take the time, and have the patience, then . . . I dunno.

Hope these answers help somewhat!