The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

[spike]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=17075

I don't think this will last. Bolding mine.

I wrote a childrens story and PA publlished it, i recently sent in a 2nd. story same leading characters ( a continuation) and PA send me an email turning me down?, kinda hurt. they said it didn't fit the criteria they are using now (whatever that means) They said for me to not give up (haha) and try another publisher... But, I thought that they owned the rights to my story/characters ??? and i don't know of any other publisher that does not want money up front and that handles childrens stories (ages 4 to 10)... My characters are cartoonish. they are all different footwear, shoes, sneakers, boots, etc. they all have names and personalities and conversations amongst themselves - But the people that wear them are nobody...just little boy, little girl, teacher, etc. the leading character is called Larry Light Up Sneaker..I wonder if the turn down has anything to do with how many books were sold the first time. i received approx. $40.00 in checks so far. ??
What do you all thinK? I need an opinon... Thanks

[ByGrace]

Another sad post on the PAMB
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=17073

From what I was told from a PA employee things are so bad there right now that they are putting further restrictions on responding to emails. In other words, they aren't responding unless absolutely necessary.
__________________________________________________ _____________

NO IMFORMATION ABOUT BOOK

I'm having a problem with my book being published. This is my forth Publish America book, "Under the Sunset Rim" and I've never had this problem with my other three book that were published. I've sent 4 emails to author support,but have not heard back from them. My book was edited and then sent to cover design over 4 weeks ago and I haven't heard a word from anyone about it since. As I said I never had that problem before, has anyone here gone through this? Does anyone have any clue they can give me about what may be going on? Thank you so much, XXXXX_____________________________________________ ____________________

[Patricia]

To me that's nothing new. PA authors have been complaining about email non-response since I've known anything about them.

[aruna]

(dleeted this post by mistake; so I repeat....)

I have a ms I'd like to submit but I can't from the UK. Anyone who would like to submit it for me please pm me.

It's a really GOOD ms! ;) :D :ROFL:

[triceretops]

Oh, Aruna, I think I know which manuscript that is too. Yes, somebody should PM her and get the lowdown.

Tri

[Patricia]

Oh, Aruna, I think I know which manuscript that is too.
Tri

Yep, me too!

Someone help her out. I'm banned and locked out by email addy and IP or I'd gladly do it. It's an "excellent" mss and deserves a chance to be published.

[James D. Macdonald]

But, I thought that they owned the rights to my story/characters ??? and i don't know of any other publisher that does not want money up front and that handles childrens stories (ages 4 to 10)...

Dear author:

No, they do not own the rights to your story or characters. They only own the publishing rights to the book they published.

As to finding a publisher that doesn't ask for money up front: go to the bookstore. Look on the shelves there for books that were written for the same age group as your book's target readers. Not one single one of the publishers of those books asks for money up front. Get those publishers' guidelines. Follow the guidelines to the letter.

[ByGrace]

To me that's nothing new. PA authors have been complaining about email non-response since I've known anything about them.

So true, but we have to post these things from time to time so writers will see how PA is operating. And you are so right. PA has always been rude to their authors, not answering emails or reponding with some kind of condesending tirade.

[aruna]

Oh, Aruna, I think I know which manuscript that is too. Yes, somebody should PM her and get the lowdown.

Tri

You and Patricia got it right! C'mon folks, give me an offer!

[ByGrace]

If PA went out of business, what would happen to their authors' books? Would the rights be automatically reverted back to them, or what? Please, no speculation, I need the facts I can pass on to a friend of mine.

[LloydBrown]

If PA went out of business, what would happen to their authors' books? Would the rights be automatically reverted back to them, or what? Please, no speculation, I need the facts I can pass on to a friend of mine.

Jaws has answered this question before. I believe the short answer was "It depends."

[Sheryl Nantus]

if/when PA goes out of business, expect a lot of caterwauling from authors who will blame "the publishing conspiracy" and AW for daring to bring down the next great publishing house.

*rolls eyes*

[Berry]

Jaws has answered this question before. I believe the short answer was "It depends."

Yep. From what I remember of Jaws' answer, there have been cases where, despite contract clauses explicitly reverting rights in case of bankruptcy, the book rights were regarded as assets of the defunct corporation and tied up in the wrangling for years after the Chapter 11 filing.'

Your best bet is to get your rights back NOW before the PA house of cards collapses.

[Maddog]

This is follow up to the previous quote Spike posted about the author whose second book (of a series) was turned down by PA. The author writes:

Need a good laugh, after i sent my last reply in which i also mentioned my delimma, i posted the same story as a new question and when i looked, PA had removed it... i guess they don't want anyone to respond to me....that is NOT NICE, i have always been true to them and have recommended some good writers to them...so, to remove my question was really an underhanded smack in the face...soooo sad.... well! thanks for listening to me...


To which Infomonster replies:


Last time we checked your message was still there, right here in this very thread, responses and all. What we removed was the exact same message, posted in another thread. That's considered flooding, and not allowed.


I guess they don't consider lavish praise flooding...they never delete positive comments!

[ByGrace]

HELP!

Does anyone have the link to where Jaws talks about what would happen to books if PA went under? I am getting emails from authors asking me about it. They are worried and in limbo about what would happen.

I really need this information.

[spike]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=17111

I print a promotion booklet/catalog that consist of all the books listed on my site. The booklet/catalog includes the book cover, author’s name, web address, synopsis, and the PA’s price of each of the books. There is also an order form for Publish America for those who would rather order by mail.

These booklet/catalogs are given out at book signings but I try to keep several in the car just in case I find someone that is interested.

PA authors: Your publisher is supposed to put together a catalog. You guys are supposed to write your next book.

[ResearchGuy]

Dear author:

... go to the bookstore. Look on the shelves there for books that were written for the same age group as your book's target readers. Not one single one of the publishers of those books asks for money up front. Get those publishers' guidelines. Follow the guidelines to the letter.
That may be the most important piece of advice for writers who want to pursue advance-and-royalty-paying publication by genuine commercial publishers with real distribution to the trade.

I would add that it is probably a very good idea to read a selection of successful books written for your intended audience to see what works and what the standards are.

--Ken

[Scribhneoir]

HELP!

Does anyone have the link to where Jaws talks about what would happen to books if PA went under? I am getting emails from authors asking me about it. They are worried and in limbo about what would happen.

I really need this information.

Check out these:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=146606
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=119161
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=113436

[Tina]

Can anyone tell me if that internet radio show featuring a discussion about PA (from a couple months back) has been archived someplace where I could listen to it? I'm referring to the debate between Jim and another person who was pro-PA.

Thanks

[Alien Enigma]

Tina, the other person who is pro-PA is me. Ed Horrell had it listed on his website. I don't know if it's still up.

[kjh7073]

Dear author:

No, they do not own the rights to your story or characters. They only own the publishing rights to the book they published.

As to finding a publisher that doesn't ask for money up front: go to the bookstore. Look on the shelves there for books that were written for the same age group as your book's target readers. Not one single one of the publishers of those books asks for money up front. Get those publishers' guidelines. Follow the guidelines to the letter.

Ok, here's a question....if I changed up the book that PA printed for me, perhaps changed the title and submit it to a real publisher...is it a breach of contract? or should i not care?
seriously. i've been thinking about doing this for awhile.

[DeadlyAccurate]

That's a question for a lawyer. You wouldn't want someone saying "yes" only to find out you're in breach of contract when you took their advice.

[Berry]

...if I changed up the book that PA printed for me, perhaps changed the title and submit it to a real publisher...is it a breach of contract?

If all you do is change the title, it probably is a violation.

Will PA notice, or if they do, do anything to you? Who knows? But we're on the side of right thinking and clean living, correct?

If the question is, can I change the book enough that it's OK to resubmit, then the answer is yes, almost certainly. For example, if you change everything except the first word, you have a new book and can submit it as you like.

Where between writing a new book and changing only the title does it become OK? THAT is where you need to consult an attorney with publishing experience.

All around, it's probably better to write a new, better book while you dicker with PA to get your rights back.

(I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, yadda yadda)

[kjh7073]

Thanks, I appreciate the input. I'm going to check out my options...
I've been trying to figure out how to get my rights back...but, honestly, the only thing I can think of at the moment is to stop promoting my book. No sales...surely they'll drop me, right? ha ha

[Arkie]

Thanks, I appreciate the input. I'm going to check out my options...
I've been trying to figure out how to get my rights back...but, honestly, the only thing I can think of at the moment is to stop promoting my book. No sales...surely they'll drop me, right? ha ha

K. J.

I looked up one book that you have had out since Sep 2004, (with the $24, 95 price tag) and based on your sales ratings on Amazon and B&N, it appears it is not selling.

You signed a seven-year contract, I assume, but I don’t think PA is going to keep authors much past two years with no sales. The bottom line is they can’t afford the administration of thousands of books on all the internet sales stores, plus keep up with royalties, checks, tax forms, etc.

I am recently released and here’s what I recommend you do: First, don’t do anything with the book until you get your release, don’t plagiarize yourself.

Write a nice e-mail to author support stating your latest royalty sales figures and say that you have been with the company two years, that you appreciate the association, but you feel your book has run its course, you can no longer promote your book and have moved on to other projects and have no other plans for your book. Suggest (don’t demand) that you believe it would be in the best interest of the publisher to release you from your contract as the administration costs of maintaining your records surely must outweigh profits from book sales. Suggest too, that they delete your password for the PAMB.
This will assure them that you will not make a last ditch effort to come on the board and criticize the company.

Send the e-mail, (keep a copy) work on something else and forget it. Do not follow-up in any way. Stay off the PAMB, but continue to visit this board. Show complete lack of interest. Do no more promotions, sell not one book personally, and if by the end of the next royalty period you are not released, send another e-mail reminding them of the e-mail you sent six-months prior, but I am willing to bet if you follow my instruction, you will have your release within three months.

[James D. Macdonald]

Ok, here's a question....if I changed up the book that PA printed for me, perhaps changed the title and submit it to a real publisher...is it a breach of contract? or should i not care?
seriously. i've been thinking about doing this for awhile.

Yes, that's a breach of contract.

Also, as soon as it's found out (and trust me, it would be) the new publisher would be extremely upset with you. Bad things would happen.

[Popeyesays]

Yes, that's a breach of contract.

Also, as soon as it's found out (and trust me, it would be) the new publisher would be extremely upset with you. Bad things would happen.Bad things like forfeiting your advance, amd having your book pulled from production or from the shelves.

Regards,
Scott

[James D. Macdonald]

Don't forget the indemnity clause, the writer's warranties (where you promise that you have the right to sell the book), and that the story will be told all over publishing.

[Nexusman]

Don't forget the indemnity clause, the writer's warranties (where you promise that you have the right to sell the book), and that the story will be told all over publishing.

Not to mention what PA would attempt.

-Nick

[Monty]

Yes I agree it is however if you wrote a series of books like I myself did there is no reason I would think why you could not publish book #2 with a real publisher like I am going to do. Remember if you only promised PA one book they only get one book. period. Just don't sign another contract without good advice this time. Professional advice would be in order. monty.


Yes, that's a breach of contract.

Also, as soon as it's found out (and trust me, it would be) the new publisher would be extremely upset with you. Bad things would happen.

[James D. Macdonald]

No, they don't get the second book in the series if you've written a series.

But the second book in the series will be almost impossible to sell to a legitimate press if the first book is still held by PA.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Tracy & I have not read the message boards regarding PublishAmerica in a long time. Our reasoning was since we are no longer associated with PublishAmerica & have received releases from our contracts - we had won and there was nothing more we could add to the conversation.

Yet, after revisiting the message boards that still have discussions regarding PublishAmerica - the names of individuals may have changed (new authors that have been “taken-in”), the complaints remain the same.

What continually befuddles me is that the Web is overflowing with information regarding PublishAmerica - and no one appears to be paying attention.

Yes, Tracy & I are very bitter concerning our separate and combined experiences with PublishAmerica - and have spent hundreds of hours writing on message boards, opinion Web sites and e-mails to PublishAmerica (which we shared on message boards, etcetera); however, no one appears to be listening and absorbing what we and others have been trying to communicate to the first time author: “STAY AWAY FROM PUBLISHAMERICA!” Tracy & I both feel that we have been shouting warning messages about PublishAmerica in a very deep canyon - and only hear an echo in return.

Well, it is back to the side-lines for us. Our issues with PublishAmerica have been resolved since we received our “rights” back. Yet, individual’s continue to stoke the fires of controversy regarding PublishAmerica - by signing with that company.

The sign read: “Danger, land-mines and unexploded missiles ahead!” Then, someone says: “That sign is really old - let’s take our chances and have a family picnic there...”

Argile Stox
argilestox@gmail.com

[ByGrace]

Argile,

I understand how you feel. It is frustrating to see there are people still having books printed by PA. A writer friend of mine's sister was recently fired from Publish America after being there for three years. She was frustrated and she told him that they were told to accept anything that came in to them except for anything that was plagerized or that could bring them a slander suit. She said the stuff submitted were thoms that should never be published...it was rubbish she claimed. So the quality of writing has steeply dropped off.

Back in 2000 PA published novels of a higher quality. I know because I read several and thought 'this author should be published with a New York publisher'. They were too good for a pod company. I'm still in touch with most of them and they have moved on from PA and will never go with them again.

Now they are getting so called books that are terribly written. What this shows is that serious, talented writers are avoiding Publish America. Good writers who once were with them are not and never will be again.

They claim to be the number one book publisher in America, but they left off the rest of that sentence. The number one book publisher of bad books.

[kjh7073]

K. J.

I looked up one book that you have had out since Sep 2004, (with the $24, 95 price tag) and based on your sales ratings on Amazon and B&N, it appears it is not selling.

You signed a seven-year contract, I assume, but I don’t think PA is going to keep authors much past two years with no sales. The bottom line is they can’t afford the administration of thousands of books on all the internet sales stores, plus keep up with royalties, checks, tax forms, etc.

I am recently released and here’s what I recommend you do: First, don’t do anything with the book until you get your release, don’t plagiarize yourself.

Write a nice e-mail to author support stating your latest royalty sales figures and say that you have been with the company two years, that you appreciate the association, but you feel your book has run its course, you can no longer promote your book and have moved on to other projects and have no other plans for your book. Suggest (don’t demand) that you believe it would be in the best interest of the publisher to release you from your contract as the administration costs of maintaining your records surely must outweigh profits from book sales. Suggest too, that they delete your password for the PAMB.
This will assure them that you will not make a last ditch effort to come on the board and criticize the company.

Send the e-mail, (keep a copy) work on something else and forget it. Do not follow-up in any way. Stay off the PAMB, but continue to visit this board. Show complete lack of interest. Do no more promotions, sell not one book personally, and if by the end of the next royalty period you are not released, send another e-mail reminding them of the e-mail you sent six-months prior, but I am willing to bet if you follow my instruction, you will have your release within three months.

Arkie:

Thank you very much for your help. I am going to follow your advice to the letter.


I just wanted to say something about PA (and no, I'm not bitching, either). When I submitted my first book nearly 3 years ago, I didn't know anything about PA and how many problems their authors had with them. I was excited about getting published, albeit not by a "traditional" publisher. No, they didn't do half of the things they promised (such as post ads in my local papers), but still I had a book that I could say was mine.
And, I did submit a book of short stories and poems....because, honestly, I didn't really believe all of the things people were saying about PA. Seriously, how could a company stay in business if all the troubles they'd been having was true?
Then, I met someone who knows a thing or two about the publishing business--and she laughed at me, out and out laughed, when I told her who'd published my books. She told me that if I wanted to be a writer who's taken seriously by the industry, I needed to get away from PA. I asked why? And she just looked at me and said. "Trust me on this one, babe."
But honestly, I wasn't sure how to get away from them. Then, I made my way back over here....
It's not that I was stupid or idiotic enough to purposely fall into a six foot deep hole...it's just that, well---and I think we can somewhat agree on this---it's easier to believe when the troubles are personal to you instead of reading about someone else's troubles. Did I like that the highest royalty check I ever got was just about $2.30? No. But, it was still royalty for something I'd written. Do I like the fact that I get ignored via email most of the time? No, but I figured everyone is busy. Do I like getting laughed at? Hell no. I'm so done with that.

I am, however, definately going to heed the words written in this thread, and on this board, from now on. And, I do thank you for the advice :)

KJ

[Gravity]

Last night I got in (late) from five days of teaching at this year's Glorieta Christian Writers conference in Santa Fe. Not surprisingly, among the staff at our faculty dinner Tuesday night the subject of PA came up. One can pretty much imagine the laughter PA invoked.

And then one of the editors said something that caused my ears to really perk up. Paraphrased, he said, "Two years ago at this conference I talked with six new authors who'd lost their first books to PA; last year it was two. It seems to me the word is finally getting out. I'll bet we don't see any PA people this year."

And we didn't. In all the classes I taught, in all the meet-the-pros roundtables I conducted, in the three one-on-one mentoring sessions I did, there wasn't one-zero-nada person who'd lost a book to PA. I guess in light of what I've heard about the layoffs PA is doing, and the fall-off of manuscripts recieved there, maybe, just maybe, PA's day is at long last fading.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've heard a rumor that PA's started writing to the authors they rejected (that is, whose books arrived after they reached the cutoff-number on whatever day it was they submitted), asking if their books are still available.

They need constant meat to feed the meatgrinder. It isn't like they can start promoting their backlist or anything.

[Tina]

Has anyone considered nominating PA to the Guiness Book of World Records? Category: Publisher with largest percentage of signed authors seeking release.

I'm serious (okay, I'm giggling a bit, but just a bit...)

[Tina]

This is an excerpt from the Toronto Star today, regarding the nominations for the Governer General's Literary Awards, one of two major literary prizes awarded in Canada (the other is the Giller).

"In publishing, the "slush pile" is considered a literary wasteland — a batch of unsolicited manuscripts that lowly interns are given the unenviable task of sifting through.

But very occasionally, they hit pay dirt.

De Niro's Game, by Montreal author Rawi Hage is a remarkable case in point. In recent months, it has ascended from slush pile to Giller prize short list. And on Monday, it racked up another accolade when it was announced as a fiction finalist for the Governor General's Literary Awards.

"It was the voice," said Lynn Henry of House of Anansi Press, which published Hage's novel.

"The book actually changed a lot in the editorial process. But Rawi, from the very beginning, had one of those voices that you only come across ... I don't know, (once) every 5,000 times that you look at the slush pile. It leapt off the page."

Guess what PA lurkers? New writers (make that new, wonderful writers) do get published by the legit presses, and acknowledged at even higher levels after that. PA fills a niche for the thousands who are not good enough, or didn't do enough research. PA gets rich and its writers get nothing that they were hoping for.

What if you're not a wonderful writer? You can either work, work, work to try and become better, or realize that not everyone can be a published author, just like not everyone can become a movie star, member of Parliament (or Congress) or famous chef.

[Monty]

Tried of not getting paid after working like hell to promote it. Might just publish the second in the series under a new Name Battle for the White Forrest and leave off the cover title Zorana's Quest. However I ask is that really wise?

Confussed about this issue as James Mcdonald pointed out a concern I had still being in PA's trap. How to move on with the series as I have 12 done competed books.

I started two more series this year that I am still carefully working on. Please reccomend a good agent. I can't pick one with the limited one hour at the library I have to research It's not enough time to research the list of them it's too long. monty Please Help.


QUOTE=James D. Macdonald]I've heard a rumor that PA's started writing to the authors they rejected (that is, whose books arrived after they reached the cutoff-number on whatever day it was they submitted), asking if their books are still available.

They need constant meat to feed the meatgrinder. It isn't like they can start promoting their backlist or anything.[/QUOTE]

[TwentyFour]

Monty please try the following sites

http://www.agentquery.com/ they give you a list of who will buy from what genre

http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/pubagent.htm

[Sarashay]

And then one of the editors said something that caused my ears to really perk up. Paraphrased, he said, "Two years ago at this conference I talked with six new authors who'd lost their first books to PA; last year it was two. It seems to me the word is finally getting out. I'll bet we don't see any PA people this year."

Interesting. Did he actually use the phrasing 'lost their first books to PA'? I find that particularly telling.

I know I managed to save at least one soul from PA damnation, thanks to some links to this board.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Tried of not getting paid after working like hell to promote it. Might just publish the second in the series under a new Name Battle for the White Forrest and leave off the cover title Zorana's Quest. However I ask is that really wise?

Confussed about this issue as James Mcdonald pointed out a concern I had still being in PA's trap. How to move on with the series as I have 12 done competed books.

I started two more series this year that I am still carefully working on. Please reccomend a good agent. I can't pick one with the limited one hour at the library I have to research It's not enough time to research the list of them it's too long. monty Please Help.


get a copy of the Writer's Market from the library. Or one that deals with agents.

[Christine N.]

This thread (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=17111&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=08baf823f76658698e71da6dbcc4637b)is now up to three pages..

I understand, on some level, that the PA gang KNOWS that their 'publisher' isn't going to do this for them. So then when the argument comes up again that PA is just as good as a 'real publisher', we can point to this very thread and go 'oh, yeah?'

Come on, authors! One of your own is putting together a 50 page catalog. What are you going to do with it once it's done? Leave them at truckstops? Or is someone going to really try and send it to actual bookstores?? I'd like to see what happens then. Maybe some of them will get it then.

Real publishers make up catalogs FOR YOU, with all your book in it. They send them to people that can actually get your book on a shelf somewhere.

[Richard White]

Christine,

Another catalog?

What happened to the 200 Authors Book?

[Christine N.]

Don't ask. I haven't seen or heard from John in ages.
From the looks of this thread, this is more like what a real publisher would put out, except this one author is covering the cost of the ink, paper and legwork.

Le sigh.

[Gravity]

Interesting. Did he actually use the phrasing 'lost their first books to PA'? I find that particularly telling.

Yep, he sure did. Now we all know PA takes full rights for seven years. But for a disheartening number of writers, that seven-year hostage situation is damnably hard to get past. And the sad fact is, some of them never do; after the disdain by which they're treated by their printer, on top of the lack of a sales force or catalog to get their works on store shelves, some writers just choose to "hang up their harps on the willow branches" (to wax poetic) instead. To me, that's the single most heartbreaking thing about PA; simply put, they're dream-killers.

[TwentyFour]

The 200 Author book from the forum:

Hello to everyone,

Hopefully at some time the authors in the 200 book will call into the forum and get this update about the royalty cheque.

Although I did get a royalty for one book originally this time it is for 22 books which is $41.80

Naturally this is not a great deal but one suggestion was that we use this to purchase a book to send to Amazon for their look inside the book feature, there is enough to get a second book which I may be able to give Waterstones to place in their window along with the three copies they ordered for the shop shelf.

I personally have worked on other projects notably a song to be recorded very soon so have not promoted my own book or the 200 much during this year but will as soon as my other projects are filled.

Certainly I think a group might well approach local libraries and that way we can get good coverage.

Anyway, best wishes to all.

john

http://z13.invisionfree.com/200authors/index.php?showtopic=199


He never posted after that.

[brianm]

Christine,

Another catalog?

What happened to the 200 Authors Book?

It was published. How do I know? I just went into SYW and clicked on kjh7073's new posting...

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=73

and instead of seeing some posted work, she left a link. The link leads you to her webpage and if you click on "Books"... the first book she offers is...

PA's "200 Authors and How They Got Published."

I'm not sure if she was asking for a critique of that book or if she is promoting PA.

Seems strange since she has posted in this thread about how she is trying to get out of her PA contract, etc. Why would she promote that book?

I was not amused.

[Christine N.]

What's really sad about that is they're treating it like a book instead of what it is - a catalog.

I mean, who wants to buy a book about a bunch of authors you've never heard of, hocking their overrpriced, unedited books I've never heard of?

I'd bet that every single copy they did sell was sold to an author featured in the book.

[TwentyFour]

200 did not buy it, thats the funny thing.

[TwentyFour]

It would have been smarter to have a PDF maker and sent the catalog via email to all the stores they could find.

[Sheryl Nantus]

the "200" book sold 22 copies.

and I'm willing to bet the majority of authors listed still believe in PA.

*shakes head*

what a bunch of maroons.

and they'll do it again.

[army_grunt13]

I've heard a rumor that PA's started writing to the authors they rejected (that is, whose books arrived after they reached the cutoff-number on whatever day it was they submitted), asking if their books are still available.

They need constant meat to feed the meatgrinder. It isn't like they can start promoting their backlist or anything.

You got that right! I had made the mistake of posting on their query link to see if my book was *cough* 'good enough.' Of course once I did my research and bailed on the idea, I started looking for other avenues. This was back in May 2005, while I was still in Iraq. And yet about once a quarter I would get emails from their 'editors' wanting to know why I hadn't published with them. At first my replies were very diplomatic, explaining that I had decided to go another route. They must not have read my replies because once they seemed to be straining to meet their quota, they'd come knocking again. The way these emails were written was almost like a form letter, a very badly written form letter I might add! I haven't been bugged in a while, because I think somebody must have read my last email to them. . .wish I had kept a copy of it!

[army_grunt13]

*shakes head*

what a bunch of maroons.

Ok, now I'm waiting for you to say, "What an imbessile!"

The truly sad part is that most of these poor, guilible people probably think that most 'legitimate' authors only sell books to their friends and family. They've probably been led to believe that this is normal. *sigh*

[Sassenach]

From PAMB, where hope springs eternal:


[I]
My book was released last month & I still don't have a single review! I'm from a town too small for a newspaper--so I turn to you for assistance. My book consists of a 10-pg. preface & 38 poems (a total of 62 pgs.),

From what I gather there appears to be a lot of poets on the boards & if that is indeed the case then I appeal to my fellow bards for reviews, blurbs &/or blogs to post on my future website(s). However, writers of all genres are invited to contribute . . . I'll reciprocate if the work isn't obscene, violent, or anti-Christian. Until now I didn't realize how difficult it is to persuade other writers to help one promote his/her book(s)! Why is that . . . a lack of motivation or because other writers are deemed "competition"? It seems to me that writers would benefit from writing reviews for others--if not spiritually then commercially--since a basic tenet of self-promotion is to get your name out there in the public domain (sell yourself & you sell your product).

*******************

Has any of u new guys gotten paid yet? Man, i can't wait to see some real money u know. I am tired of living check to check u feel me. I hope the best for us all.

*******************

can some one help me to do one [Proposal] for my book


trying to get a major seller ot carry it in store

[James D. Macdonald]

From what I gather there appears to be a lot of poets on the boards & if that is indeed the case then I appeal to my fellow bards for reviews, blurbs &/or blogs to post on my future website(s).

My very dear poet friend!

Here are my best suggestions to you:

First, get a website. Post all of your poems there.

Next, make up a chapbook containing your poems through Lulu.com or cafepress.com. If you can't do graphics yourself for the covers, find a friendly high school student who will do it in return for an acknowledgment.

Get a box of your books. Every time there's a poetry reading, go to that reading. Read some of your works; sell copies of your chapbook from the back of the hall.

Put "Copyright [copyright symbol] [date] by [yourname]" on the copyright page. (If you're unsure of the layout, copy the layout from some book you already have on the shelf.) You don't need to register the copyright (it costs $45) if you don't want to; copyright exists from the moment you set your words in tangible form. But please do put on the copyright notice.

You don't need to buy an ISBN. Face it; your book won't be in bookstores anyway, and sales off Amazon will be negligible in any case. If people want to buy your book on line you can direct them to Lulu or wherever.

Write more poems; submit them to legitimate magazines that take poetry. (You'd be surprised by the number that use poems as filler.) Don't look for more than token payment -- you're doing all this for love anyway. Once a poem's been published (and whatever exclusive period has gone by), put it on your webpage. If a poem's been rejected by all the markets you're willing to submit it to, and you still like it, put it on your web page. When you've collected enough new poems to make another chapbook, create a new chapbook. Continue as above.

Best of luck to you all.

[spike]

Christine,

Another catalog?

What happened to the 200 Authors Book?

Here's your answer:

All these ideas have been thought about, discussed and finally abandoned by every group of PA authors over the past six years.

****, with help from ****, even put together a PA book 200 Authors and tried to involve all the contributors in promoting the book.

When he asked the authors to send out press releases to all the major newspapers, the repsonse was extremely poor. The authors had better things to do with their time.

Royalties so far show that less than forty books were sold.

People want in on promotional activities until it starts to take up too much of their time.

This may seem harsh but true.
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16612&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

What happened was what started out as a promotional tool ended up being a book about how writers got printed...published...I was right the first time, printed.

[endless rewrite]

The truly sad part is that most of these poor, guilible people probably think that most 'legitimate' authors only sell books to their friends and family.

Nobody in their right mind could think this. What on earth do they think bookstores are - optical illusions?

[army_grunt13]

Key phrase, "In their right minds." They probably think that only a select few make it into book stores, and that perhaps it's just a matter of time. . .I don't know, I'm just throwing thoughts out there, trying to make sense of it all.

[James D. Macdonald]

Yes, that's exactly what they think. I've heard PA authors saying "Who do you think Stephen King sold his books to when he was starting out?" I've heard them repeating "Bookstores are terrible places to sell books!" There's PA's huge "Most books aren't sold in bookstores," and "To shelve every book published bookstores would have to add 15 feet of new shelving every day!" campaign (both true for certain values of "true," but both terribly misleading).

For those who weren't around last time this was discussed, short version: Most books aren't sold through bookstores because they're bought by school systems, or corporations, or other parts of government. Encyclopedias, textbooks, law books, engineering references, corporate reports, academic books, aren't intended for bookstore sales. Bookclub books don't go through bookstores. (The Harlequin book clubs move metric tons of books.) The spinner down at the bus station isn't a bookstore either, yet such non-bookstore outlets served by the independent distributors (and no PA book has ever cracked the IDs) also sell a significant number of books.

And as to the 15 feet of new shelving ... even among commercial books (those intended for bookstore sales) that assumes that no books will ever sell and no books are ever returned. Sales and returns are what keep bookstore shelf requirements steady. Take an example. I have a book coming out soon. Its spine is 26/32 of an inch. (That's listed on the back of the cover flat that the sales force has already taken around -- it's something bookstores want to know.) Say a bookstore orders 15 copies (enough to fill one foot of shelf space. Say that over the course of a year 9 sell (a 60% sell-through) and 6 are returned. Net change in shelf-space required: zero.

[kjh7073]

It was published. How do I know? I just went into SYW and clicked on kjh7073's new posting...

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=73

and instead of seeing some posted work, she left a link. The link leads you to her webpage and if you click on "Books"... the first book she offers is...

PA's "200 Authors and How They Got Published."

I'm not sure if she was asking for a critique of that book or if she is promoting PA.

Seems strange since she has posted in this thread about how she is trying to get out of her PA contract, etc. Why would she promote that book?

I was not amused.

Welp, here I am...forced to defend myself. I hate feeling attacked on a board I just friggin joined and started posting on.

Yeah, you got it...I am a part of the 200 authors who're in that book. I got involved because Sherry and John are friends of mine. And, I did put a bit about it on my website. I have, however, taken down the links to buy all of the books from my website. Just haven't made it around to taking down the descriptions of the books I've written...mostly because, on some level, I am still proud of my work, in spite of who "published" it. So, gimme a break, will ya? Rome wasn't built in a day! That website has been active for over 2 years!

As I said in the other thread you linked to above, I do NOT under any circumstances tell people (when they ask me) to go with PA...in fact, I tell them that's the worst mistake they can make. You won't find a link to PA anywhere on my site--and you haven't been able to do so for awhile. I used to have a free-for-all links page dedicated to promoting PA authors' websites...that's gone too. And, you're upset about 1 sentence that someone else wrote in the description of their book. Seems to me, there are more important things in this world to be upset over.

You know, I was just starting to feel comfortable here. Damn *sigh*
Attack PA, not me. OK?

[James D. Macdonald]

Calm yourselves, folks. That was a link in her sig to her homepage. Lots of folks have them. It wasn't a request for a crit. I have all my books listed on my own web page, even books long out of print. It's for the sake of completeness; a biographical/bibliographical note. If someone feels compelled to go find one of them and write a crit, feel free -- just don't bother sending it to me. I'm not interested.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Here's your answer:


http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=16612&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

What happened was what started out as a promotional tool ended up being a book about how writers got printed...published...I was right the first time, printed.

the ironic part is that the author who informs them of the bad sales also then blames the AUTHORS who didn't go out and push it enough.

again, blame the victim.

maroons.

[brianm]

Calm yourselves, folks. That was a link in her sig to her homepage. Lots of folks have them. It wasn't a request for a crit. I have all my books listed on my own web page, even books long out of print. It's for the sake of completeness; a biographical/bibliographical note. If someone feels compelled to go find one of them and write a crit, feel free -- just don't bother sending it to me. I'm not interested.

Jim,

She posted in SYW. Then removed what she posted without explaining she had removed it. What was left, when I clicked on the post in SYW, was just the link to her site. I clicked the link, clicked "books" and was dismayed to see that book. Since all she had in her SYW post was the link... I was suspicious. Perhaps in the future she will leave some sort of explanation when she edits and removes an entire posting in SYW.

A simple explanation, in a civil tone, in this thread and in the SYW thread would have sufficed.

[kjh7073]

Perhaps you shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly, Brian. And, perhaps you could have been more civilized in your accusations...and speak directly to me.

I hate it when people talk about me like I'm not here.


You know what, Mr. Macdonald, I thank you for your words. I thank you for your advice, and I thank you for trying to help. I don't like it when unfounded accusations start flying....I personally think I've been thru enough just surviving PA...I don't need drama. I really don't. In fact...as I read in the board rules...it's not allowed.

I shouldn't have to put up with things like like this. Just when I was getting comfortable on this board....ugh. I'm quite dismayed, to be honest. Disillusioned, too.

A simple question would have sufficed--I would have answered it even in private message, instead it turns into something about me being a "wolf in sheep's clothing." If I was going to promote PA, defend PA, or sing their praises (which I wouldn't, and never have, actually)...I surely wouldn't be stupid enough to do it here. I valued the information I read on here...and was grateful that it helped me to get out of one mess before it escalated--and to potentially get out of the stranglehold of PA before too long.

This is probably my last post; which doesn't really make me happy. But, I won't tollerate a place where I'm accused of lying (which is what "wolves in sheep's clothing" do, you realize). Can't deal with it. Shouldn't have to.

I really am grateful for the help and advice I've been given.

Sincerely,
KJ Hamilton

[James D. Macdonald]

kjh7073 had posted something in SYW. Some hours later she came back and deleted the text. But because it was the first post in a thread, she couldn't remove the message entirely -- it remained as a ghost with only her sig line showing.

This is a non-issue.

Please remember, everyone, that folks who've had dealings with PA are often bruised, and touching a bruise results in pain.

Also, remember, authors love their books. Even if bad things have happened to that book.

[kjh7073]

Thank you, Sir.

[Kevin Yarbrough]

It seems I have received a royalty checke from PA for a book they don't own, not to mention it was mailed 21 days late. I wonder what to do with the $1.81? A soda maybe. Or a couple of condoms since PA is still sticking it to me where the sun don't shine.

[Popeyesays]

It seems I have received a royalty checke from PA for a book they don't own, not to mention it was mailed 21 days late. I wonder what to do with the $1.81? A soda maybe. Or a couple of condoms since PA is still sticking it to me where the sun don't shine.

The PA shaft is probably sterile. However a tube of Wal-Mart brand KY might be a better investment.

Regards,
Scott

[army_grunt13]

It seems I have received a royalty checke from PA for a book they don't own, not to mention it was mailed 21 days late. I wonder what to do with the $1.81? A soda maybe. Or a couple of condoms since PA is still sticking it to me where the sun don't shine. They probably just rammed it home and weren't a gentleman about it either, were they?

[Kevin Yarbrough]

No, they weren't a gentleman about it. I had no diner and a movie, no kiss goodnight, not even a call the next day to say how good it was. They have rammed it home so many times in me I'm still walking funny. But you know what? The Purple Pony rammed it way farther in them then they could have imagined. I bet they still feel that one in their tonsils.

I still have the check and the envelope it came in. I'm not going to cash it, just put it away in my PA file, never know when it might come in handy.

Scott, I don't think KY jelly will cut it with what PA is doing to people. A tube of Risque Adeventures might be better, after all at least it has some numbing effect.

[aruna]

... A writer friend of mine's sister was recently fired from Publish America after being there for three years. She was frustrated and she told him that they were told to accept anything that came in to them except for anything that was plagerized or that could bring them a slander suit. She said the stuff submitted were thoms that should never be published...it was rubbish she claimed. So the quality of writing has steeply dropped off.


Now they are getting so called books that are terribly written. What this shows is that serious, talented writers are avoiding Publish America. Good writers who once were with them are not and never will be again.

I've heard a rumor that PA's started writing to the authors they rejected (that is, whose books arrived after they reached the cutoff-number on whatever day it was they submitted), asking if their books are still available.

They need constant meat to feed the meatgrinder. It isn't like they can start promoting their backlist or anything.

I repeat: I have a truly "great" manuscript I'd like to submit to PA. We can't let them run out of good stuff. Please, please will someone in the US submit for me? I'm in the UK and can't do it myself as they no longer take our books. PM or mail me.

[triceretops]

I second that request. Will somebody at least PM Aruna and get a heads up on this? Pretty please.

Tri

[Patricia]

Yes, I third that request. I have to opt out for a reason, but someone else needs to take advantage of this wonderful opportunity to submit for aruna. Give the mss the chance it deserves.

[Old Hack]

Someone, please take Aruna up on her offer. It's a wonderful mss, just begging to be submitted...!

[Susan Gable]

This morning I received not one spam, not two, but 6 spam messages from a PA author using something called the "Book Networking Group." This author is a writing teacher at a community college. It not only appalls me that a college writing teacher is so out-of-touch with publishing that he went with PA, but that he's also so out-of-touch with the fact that spamming is NOT A GOOD MARKETING TECHNIQUE. It tends to tick people off, and then they DON'T want to buy your book.

<sigh>

Am I the only one who received this lovely start to my morning, and how do I report this "Book Networking Group" [info@artists-networkinfo.com was the return email addy] as spammers? They sent 2 messages apiece to the various email addies off my own website. I certainly did not sign up for their lovely little promo. (Which, by the way, has Miranda mentioning how quickly this book will resonate with audiences. Can't PA at least write a NEW press release??? )

Susan G.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

...and how do I report this "Book Networking Group" [info@artists-networkinfo.com was the return email addy] as spammers?Try abuse@artists-networkinfo.com.

[AnneMarble]

Am I the only one who received this lovely start to my morning, and how do I report this "Book Networking Group" [info@artists-networkinfo.com was the return email addy] as spammers?
I might have received one along those lines. Sigh.

To report the spam, you need to be able to figure out how to display the e-mail with full headers and source. (This tells you where it really came from and not where it says it came from. :D) How you do that depends on your e-mail program.

Once you do that, you can use a site such as spamcop.net to figure out where the spam should be forwarded. If it's something where I really want to send a message to the spammer's web host, I'll send an e-mail from my account instead of via SpamCop. But SpamCop is a good way to find out where the crap came from. At least for the semi-techie types like me.

If you want, I can give you my SpamCop password so that you can use the easier way to report it. Or maybe some more techie person (such as Uncle Jim) will help.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Susan,

This writing teacher is just trying to "make a big splash and have name recognition" within their academia arena. "I am a writing teacher and wrote a book... Nanna - Nanna - Noot - Noot!" In my humble opinion, my gut feeling is that most tenured teachers and professors that this writer is associated with will snicker and laugh when they see that the book was printed by PublishAmerica.

The psychological factor that the owners of PublishAmerica have down pat, is the fact that an individual will be so emboldened and giddy due to the fact that the book was printed - that they will lose touch with reality, and eventually will be shunned by their peers.

If you receive any other advertizing material from this writer - just toss it. If you really want to make a stern point, place a phone call and insist that you be taken off the "list".

There are those in the academic world who take the saying, "Publish or Perish" much too seriously. Once this author figuratively breaks an arm and or leg trying to get the book into bookstores, and is rejected by her own constituent base, their mind will finally break free of the PublishAmerica "Myth" and then they will regain their rational faculties.

Argile Stox

[James D. Macdonald]

Am I the only one who received this lovely start to my morning, and how do I report this "Book Networking Group" [info@artists-networkinfo.com was the return email addy] as spammers?

abuse@algx.net

spam@uce.gov

[army_grunt13]

Argile, that sounds like a painful experience! One could almost refer to it as a "Literary Exorcism!"

One thing I always do is whenever I get spam, I go into TOOLS on my Outlook and create a rule that will always permanently delete any emails from that source. Pretty painless, and I know that most email hosts have similar options.

While ranting, or sending nasty-grams may be satisfying, it can also open you up to worse things. And I don't recommend clicking on the "unsubscribe" link on any email you did not solicit. In the big scheme of things, all that does is tell spammers that yours is in fact a legitimate email address. At that point they will often-times open the floodgates on you. I saw this happen with an old email address, and it got so bad I ended up closing the account.

My advice is to not take these things any more seriously than they should be, and if in fact you did not subscribe to posts from these people, just create a rule in your email account that will delete them before they can show up in your inbox.

[MMo]

I still have the check and the envelope it came in. I'm not going to cash it, just put it away in my PA file, never know when it might come in handy.


Kevin, dear, PLEASE cash the check. Make P.A. spend the $1.81 and the check processing fee. Please. But before you do, scratch out any release that may be attached to an endorsement. (Oh, and copy the check, front and back, in case you need to refer to it -- perhaps in a letter to the IRS or some other appropriate government body.

Mo

[Christine N.]

Yes, Kevin, just think about a thousand 1.81 checks. If everyone held onto theirs, PA gets to keep 1,810.00.

Or multiply it by 2,000 or 3,000. Think about your little piece of Willie's chopper as you cash that check.

Put it in your kids piggy bank.

[James D. Macdonald]

If for some reason you don't want to sign your name on the back of a check, write "For deposit only" on the back and put it into your account.

[JanDarby]

Piggybacking on what Uncle Jim said, under federal banking law, you don't have to write ANYTHING, not even "for deposit" on the back, if the name on the check is the same as the name on the bank account, and you're just depositing it.

If there's a pre-printed waiver written on the back of the check, I believe you can write "under protest" beneath it or anything to indicate that you're not agreeing to the waiver, b/c you haven't received compensation for the waiver, and thereby reserve your rights to contest the waiver. You should check that, though, with a local attorney, if you care about the issue.

JD

[grommet]

Susan,

I got multiple copies of it too in a work account I never use for anything. Had a good chuckle over Miranda's much mocked, never altered press release.

There's also an interesting post in Rachel Vater's blog this a.m. about a P.A. author's wife who called her because her husband wants to change publishers.


Grommet

[Sheryl Nantus]

There's also an interesting post in Rachel Vater's blog this a.m. about a P.A. author's wife who called her because her husband wants to change publishers.

I love it.

Yes, have your wife *call* the agent and ask for a phone call back 'cause you're WAY too good a writer to go type out a query and submit it.

Attitude much, eh?

[Susan Gable]

Susan,

I got multiple copies of it too in a work account I never use for anything. Had a good chuckle over Miranda's much mocked, never altered press release.

There's also an interesting post in Rachel Vater's blog this a.m. about a P.A. author's wife who called her because her husband wants to change publishers.


Grommet

Can you point the way to this blog? I'd like to read it.

Thanks! And thanks to all of you who helped me with the spam reporting process!

Susan G.

[AnneMarble]

Can you point the way to this blog? I'd like to read it.
I think it's this one:
http://raleva31.livejournal.com/

Thanks! And thanks to all of you who helped me with the spam reporting process!
I'm glad to help kick spammers' cans. ;)

[grommet]

Susan,

Rachel's blog is http://raleva31.livejournal.com/
(http://raleva31.livejournal.com/)
The entry is the one entitled "Facing Wednesday."

Grommet

[soloset]

I love it.

Yes, have your wife *call* the agent and ask for a phone call back 'cause you're WAY too good a writer to go type out a query and submit it.

Attitude much, eh?

I actually thought it was kind of sad. No doubt she's reeling from the first blow of "my publisher isn't who they claim they are" and hasn't yet reached the "oh, my god, they're not even a publisher at all" level of awareness yet.

She's most likely completely clueless about how real publishing works. I'm pretty sure everyone is at some point -- for some of us, it takes a hideously embarrassing mistake to learn better, while for others, a quick google saves years of pain and frustration.

Anyway, to her it was probably a perfectly reasonable move. If you don't like the way your dry cleaner or car repair place treats you or your car, you call up another, right? What she doesn't realize yet is that her husband's book has no standing in the real publishing world.

And I know it's not the agent's job to call her back and explain. It's just not. But I can't help but feel sorry for her anyway, because she'll keep making the mistake until someone does explain.

ETA: The blog entry, so you don't have to dig, is here (http://raleva31.livejournal.com/27197.html). I don't know why the direct link text has to be so darn tiny.

[Sheryl Nantus]

don't know, I'm not as sympathetic as you are.

I've seen this sort of "I'm PUBLISHED! So LISTEN TO ME!" attitude on other boards with PA authors who still don't have a clue that they've been scammed. But they *do* have the attitude that now they're "better" than the rest of us because they've managed to get their tome into print.

They also figure that they don't need to stand in line since they've got that "publishing credit" and thus can just phone up an agent and demand representation.

as I said before - maroons.

:)

[soloset]

I've felt your frustration, believe me! But I woke up this morning with my heart stuck to my sleeve and the stupid thing won't get back where it belongs.

I guess I tend to picture my MIL -- the sweetest irresistable force you'll ever meet -- whenever I hear of something like this. If I were picturing, say, the guy I used to work with who was an "artist" who "didn't have to follow the rules" because his work wasn't intended for the "sheeple" and who then constantly complained that no one would buy his work, I'd giggle instead of feel like crying.

(Edited to take out the quote since, amazingly, I actually managed to post fast enough for a change.)

[Gravity]

The crazy thing is, sooner or later reality hits every PA author. Every. Single. One. The exact manner they face that reality differs.

Some (like me), go through chagrin, shame, anger, and then resolve. In fact, once the truth was revealed, I went through all that in less than an hour. I chose to fight back. This consisted mainly of a two-pronged campaign of one) writing a new, better book, and getting it commercially published, and two) getting the rights to my PA book returned, so I could re-write and re-submit it. Amazingly, the first task was easier than the second, but after time, both were achieved. That's how I faced my "PA mistake".

Others, sadly, never leave the chagrin, shame, and anger phase, letting their PA mistake become the defining part of their writing life. Some of these folks even choose to never again write, thus letting Willy and the Poor Boys win by default.

Still others go to work shilling for the scammers, thus attempting to assuage their own guilt by becoming complicit in the scamming of others ("if I'm not the only clown in the circus, it makes me feel better"). We all know who these are.

Again, bank on it, eventually every PA writer comes to the truth. How they handle that truth varies greatly.

[ByGrace]

Just this week, I have met three current PA authors online. How'd I met them? I looked at the PA board and saw their post, looked at their websites, and emailed them. Each one has recently had their books released. Each one is unhappy and regretting they did not research PA before they signed. Each one told me they will not give PA another book. Each one wishes they could get out of their contracts.

I've had a handful of authors email me this week, two got releases, two are requesting releases this week, two are on the fence but doesn't like them. It's interesting it came in twos but it did.

The word is out there, and I don't believe PA will stay in business too much longer.

[triceretops]

I tried to get into PublishAmerica's "Online Bookstore" and I got the message "Page Cannot Be Connected"

When I called their telephone number, they are not answering their phones. There is a message for the caller just to leave a message which I have done several times and no one gets back to me...

I have also written to "Support@PublishAmerica.com" and have received nothing back. I have been doing this for several months now.

Has anyone else had this problem?

Does anyone know how to find out how their books are selling?

I'm sorry that your question about general sales has gone unanswered. I mean, sales to the public, which I'm sure is what you're looking for.

If you would like an instant response, I suggest you call them and ask about a special discount on mass quantities of your book. Tell them you have your credit card handy. There. That'll hook you up. Promblem solved.

Tri

[astonwest]

Yes, have your wife *call* the agent and ask for a phone call back 'cause you're WAY too good a writer to go type out a query and submit it.Considering my own wife would be just about this brazen (and just as clueless about publishing), I could see it as the wife taking it upon herself, without any knowledge of how the system works, to contact the agent sans her husband's awareness.

Of course, this seems like Overflow territory...

[PVish]

At a recent literary event I attended, a couple dozen authors displayed their books. Four were PA authors—two very young, two beyond middle age. I tried to talk to one whose book was recently released and heard the mantra, "I'm not in this for the money," as well as "There's a lot of misinformation about PublishAmerica on the Internet." One of the PA books looked pretty good (others were two-color covers with stock art), but that author packed up and left early before I could talk to her or look closely at her book.

I did notice that many of us self-pubbed folks just sat a couple of our books and a few business cards on the table and spent our time socializing and networking. The PA authors, however, had tablecloths, enlarged posters of book covers, bookmarks, candy, lots of books, etc. One even had a vase of flowers. They stayed behind their tables and waited for buyers. They'd reduced their books' prices, though—I didn't see any advertised for more than $15. I suspect all of them spent way more on their displays (and books) than they made on book sales.

[spike]

I tried to get into PublishAmerica's "Online Bookstore" and I got the message "Page Cannot Be Connected"

When I called their telephone number, they are not answering their phones. There is a message for the caller just to leave a message which I have done several times and no one gets back to me...

I have also written to "Support@PublishAmerica.com" and have received nothing back. I have been doing this for several months now.

Has anyone else had this problem?

Does anyone know how to find out how their books are selling?

I'm sorry that your question about general sales has gone unanswered. I mean, sales to the public, which I'm sure is what you're looking for.

If you would like an instant response, I suggest you call them and ask about a special discount on mass quantities of your book. Tell them you have your credit card handy. There. That'll hook you up. Promblem solved.

Tri

She got her response, but I don't think it was what she was hoping for. The infomonster must be having a bad day to put this on the public board.

Angene,

As you know, what you say is not true.

As you know, our support team has responded to your messages
on at least 16 occasions, many of which were during this past
February, March, May, June, July, August, September, and October
2006.

As you know, our phones have not gone unanswered, and you
have not left voicemail that was unanswered. This has not been
going on at all, nor for "several months".

As you know, the support team answered all of your questions,
including separate messages on each and every one of the
following topics:

- first purchase discount
- setting up a website
- sending your copyright
- retail ordering
- your computer crash and deadlines
- royalties payment times
- tracking sales
- announcement letter
- press release
- mailing list
- discount rates
- royalty calculation methods

We still have all of the emails, both to you and from you.

Please do not post made up nonsense.

[army_grunt13]

Geez, what a tool! The PA people need to learn a thing or two about professional courtesy. How about specific responses to her questions, and reiterrating what they were? IE "as per your question on X-date, this is the answer we sent you. Sorry if there was a miscommunication."

Basically, they just called her a liar, and have taken no responsibility for any potential communications breakdown. You know, I could have a heyday with these people. I should write something totally dreadful (think "Atlanta Nights" all over again) and get a "contract" with them, just so that I could issue a little payback on behalf of every writer that not only do they "ram it home" on, but are also downright rude and insulting. You know, even their insult sounded almost like a form letter, a badly written one at that. . .

[spike]

Geez, what a tool! The PA people need to learn a thing or two about professional courtesy. How about specific responses to her questions, and reiterrating what they were? IE "as per your question on X-date, this is the answer we sent you. Sorry if there was a miscommunication."

Basically, they just called her a liar, and have taken no responsibility for any potential communications breakdown. You know, I could have a heyday with these people. I should write something totally dreadful (think "Atlanta Nights" all over again) and get a "contract" with them, just so that I could issue a little payback on behalf of every writer that not only do they "ram it home" on, but are also downright rude and insulting. You know, even their insult sounded almost like a form letter, a badly written one at that. . .

What surprises me is that no one on the PA board has come to the author's defense.

[triceretops]

Just another variation of "Don't take that tone with us."

Info blow is notorious for public flailings with the cat-o-nine. It could have been handled by email or a phone call back. But it was designed to instill fear--a stark reminder to others who might dare ask questions.

I can guess where the "made up nonsense' remark came from. How ironic that her past criminal charges fits that phrase like a glove from sea to shining sea across the fruited meadows. Who would no more about that than the one who shall not be named?

Tri

[Bufty]

I thought so too, many months ago and share your hope.

I haven't posted in this thread for ages, but when I perodically check it or the PA Message Boards it's so depressing to see that despite any apparant wider 'awareness', PA still marches on, hoovering up the impatient, the unwary and the ignorant.


....The word is out there, and I don't believe PA will stay in business too much longer.

[James D. Macdonald]

Q. How many Author Support Team members does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. Don't take that tone with us. 20,000 very happy authors agree that the lightbulb is fine. We expect your prompt apology.


Meanwhile, let me answer those questions:

- first purchase discount

It's 50%, it's only for two weeks (Hurry, hurry, hurry, folks! Step right up!) and postage (an an exorbitant rate) is extra. They're hoping to high-pressure you into buying lots of copies of your own book. Hello, vanity press!

- setting up a website

Judging by the websites that PA sets up for you, this is difficult and clumsy. Lots of PA people have given up on PA and gone over to http://www.freewebs.com where they walk you right through it. (Please, if you go this route, don't use those Floating Butterfly java script things. Please!)

- sending your copyright

Real publishers register copyright for you in your name. PA makes the author do it, and makes the author pay. Hello, vanity press! PA also seems to think (or at least did at one point) that until the author has sent in a copy of the registration that they can't put a copyright notice in the book. Unprofessional, and they don't know a thing about either copyright or publishing. The short answer, though, is when you get the copyright certificate you send them a copy.

- retail ordering

If a bookstore orders direct from PA they get a 40% discount, but no returnability, and they have to pay with their credit card up front. This sucks as far as getting your books into bookstores. If the bookstore orders through Ingram the book is returnable, but the discount is only 5%. This means that the bookstore will lose money even if the book sells. Short answer on retail sales: Don't count on 'em. Other than Aunt Gertrude special-ordering at B&N somewhere, or you getting down on your knees and begging your local independent, they won't happen.

- your computer crash and deadlines

I don't know about this, but a) keep multiple backups of any important data, and ignore PA's deadlines. It isn't like they have a spring list that they're trying to balance. They'll publish your book any old time.

- royalties payment times

The bi-annual insult is figured in February and August and arrives (usually) in March and September. As long as you don't ask for fries with your burger the royalties can be enough to take you to McDonald's.

- tracking sales

You can't. The Amazon sales numbers are obscure; the number of internet bookstores that claim to have your book is meaningless. PA probably doesn't know themselves how many copies have sold. You'll find out in March and September (way too late to fine-tune any marketing you may foolishly be doing) how many PA wants to claim you've sold. Of course you can easily track how many of those books you've bought yourself you resold. Write down however many you bought. Count the number still in the trunk of your car. Subtract. There's your sales.

- announcement letter

The one sent to your family and friends (as if they didn't know you'd written a book!) is essentially an order form.

- press release

The so-called press release (ad for PA) is a mailmerge special: "resonate (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11922) ... like a glove (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9169)." Get the template (http://www.freewebs.com/truthaboutpa/mainstreampress.htm), fill in your information, write it yourself. (It's useless because it's sent when you sign the contract, not when the book's about to be released, and because it doesn't include a copy of the book.)


- mailing list

The names and addresses of a hundred family and friends. You provide this yourself. Consider before you go with PA that you already know by name everyone who'll buy a copy of your book.

- discount rates

Between laughable and ludicrous. 40% non-returnable from PA for cash up front, or 5% returnable from Ingram (perhaps with a re-stocking fee added, just to make sure no bookstores will order your book).

If you're talking about author's discounts, it's 20% for up to twenty at a time, and 30% for 21+ (they run occassional specials -- hurry hurry hurry! Step right up! -- with deeper discounts whenever they need to cover cash shortfalls). As usual, the prices quoted don't include shipping which they charge at an exorbitant rate.

- royalty calculation methods

They have a special drunk chimpanzee who throws darts, blindfolded ....
Actually, it's 8% on the net price. (Unlike standard publishing which is usually 10-15% on the cover price.) But given how sloppily they do the calculations it might as well be that drunk chimp.

[DeadlyAccurate]

That Infocenter response changed sometime between the time you posted it and today. Now it says:

Angene,

Perhaps you are somehow mistaken.

Our support team has responded to your messageson at least 16
occasions, many of which were during this past February, March,
May, June, July, August, September, and October 2006.

Also, our phones have not gone unanswered, and you have not
left voicemail that was unanswered. This has not been going on
at all, nor for "several months".

We still have all of the emails, both to you and from you. The
support team answered all of your questions, including separate
messages on each and every one of the following topics:

And the insults are missing from the end of the list. I don't know if they made the change because they realized how nasty they sounded, or if they did it to make it look like the person who copied the post made it up, but there ya go.

[spike]

That Infocenter response changed sometime between the time you posted it and today. Now it says:



And the insults are missing from the end of the list. I don't know if they made the change because they realized how nasty they sounded, or if they did it to make it look like the person who copied the post made it up, but there ya go.

But the author isn't buying it, either way. Here is her response.

To The Site Administrator:

Thank you for answering the questions I had posted on the PublishAmerica message board.

You have been very good at answering all my questions that I have sent in except one!!

I have repeatedly asked you why I cannot get into the "PublishedAuthors.net" website. I registered with a username and password and could get into this website for a while, but for several months now, my username and password will not work and I get the information that it is an illegal signin.

Is this part of PublishAmerica publishing company? If not, I appologize for your inconvience.

Can you please tell me how I can get in to see how my books are doing?


I'd like to think that the infomonster changed the post because I copied it here. I'd like to think that AW was having some effect on PA (even if it is just to be a pain in the @55).

[Gravity]

Another oddity I've noted: anybody (other than me, of course) wondered at the fall-off of PA apologists/trolls/shills/sockpuppets posting here as of late? Not that I'm complaining, understand; usually they were unintelligible, and frequently, maddening. But when we got the occasional PA poster who stated their case eloquently (however wrongly), they proved entertaining. I wonder if this is a foreshadowing of things having gone awry on the HMS Scammer?

[Sheryl Nantus]

Another oddity I've noted: anybody (other than me, of course) wondered at the fall-off of PA apologists/trolls/shills/sockpuppets posting here as of late? Not that I'm complaining, understand; usually they were unintelligible, and frequently, maddening. But when we got the occasional PA poster who stated their case eloquently (however wrongly), they proved entertaining. I wonder if this is a foreshadowing of things having gone awry on the HMS Scammer?

it'd be nice...

[Tina]

From PAMB:

Why in the world would you want a "major" carrier to pick up your book?

I hope that you realize that in so doing you are coming out on the losing end of the stick. If your book retail $21.95 let say, do you realize that your royalty on just one book would be $1.05 per book. If your book retails for less than that, you receive much less.

Also, only 25% of all books that are sold are done so from bookstores. That means if you center primarily on bookstores you are loosing 75% of your potential sales.

You are better off financially to market the book yourself, and put the money in your pocket.

Guess all those legitimately published writers stocked in Barnes & Noble, Chapters, Indigo, etc. etc don't realize how much they are "losing".

[Gravity]

From PAMB: Guess all those legitimately published writers stocked in Barnes & Noble, Chapters, Indigo, etc. etc don't realize how much they are "losing".

I suppose in PA-World bookstores don't sell books; here on Earth it's different. Sigh. When someone is willfully silly, it's tough to work up much sympathy for their situation.

[Christine N.]

What that PA author has yet to realize is that the 'major' carriers/publishers have.... VOLUME.

This is a volume business, because yes, royalties on a single copy are small. But mulitply that by the 10,000 copies a major publisher expects to move (I lowballed it).

Volume.

[LloydBrown]

And real publishers often pay royalties on cover price. 10% of the cover of a $14.95 book ($1.50) is better than 8% net on a $19.95 book (c. $0.96).

[AnneMarble]

I suppose in PA-World bookstores don't sell books; here on Earth it's different. Sigh. When someone is willfully silly, it's tough to work up much sympathy for their situation.
I wonder if this attitude comes about because some PA authors simply don't go to bookstores all that often. A year or two ago, in a similar discussion on the PA board, I remember a PA author talking about how he went into a bookstore, and few people were there, and nobody was buying anything as far as he could see, and he couldn't figure out how they remained in business. Because of what was clearly limited experience with bookstores, I think he assumed that all bookstores were like this all the time.

I don't know why someone could try to get published and yet make the effort to become more familiar with bookstores. (And I mean going into bookstores before they try to sell their own books!) To me, it's kind of like deciding to become a doctor but never watching surgery. And I can't explain why they are so unfamiliar with bookstores. Maybe they're not big readers :( , or maybe they just prefer getting books from the library. (Not that PA authors can easily get their books in the library, either!) Or maybe they just buy books from places like Wal-Mart and assume that most bookstores are as limited in their selections as those stores. Not seeing what's available in bookstores (the publishers, the wide range of genres, etc.) makes them easier prey.

Aspiring writers who browse bookstores whenever they can are more likely to recognize the lies in "wisdom" such as "People don't buy books from bookstores." That's not to say that they can't still get caught, but they if they do get caught, they are more likely to see through the lies. They're more likely to think "Why should I send my book to a publisher I've never heard of?"

[Christine N.]

Go to the same bookstore on a weekend afternoon. Or a week before Christmas.

That's how they stay in business.

[Berry]

"resonate (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11922) ... like a glove (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9169)."

That sounds like the title of a Spinal Tap song...

[xhouseboy]

I wanted to know if anyone else out there has ever tried to get feedback from other authors and been treated as though they were scum.
http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif
I had the idea that I might send a copy of my book to one of my favorite authors and ask for some feedback and constructive criticism. Much to my surprise, she responded. I received a letter in the mail today and it was not exactly what I expected. I thought she would point out some strengths and weaknesses but I didn't expect her to imply that I hadn't put in the requisite time and effort to write a mystery novel because I was self-published. Her response was downright mean. I would never dream of responding to a fan and aspiring author the way she responded to me. It was as though I shouldn't have had the nerve to ask for her to look at my work. I would have thought she would be flattered that I was such a fan of her work, but that didn't seem to matter.
http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif
I just feel awful because I know that the authors here put alot into their work and for her to imply that our work isn't up to the same standards as those who go through mainstream publishing houses was insulting.

Has anyone had this happen or am I the only idiot who has tried to approach an established writer for feedback?http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif




I think you have to keep in mind that PA is a threat to mainstream publishing and that's why they call it self-publishing even when they know that's not true.

If we weren't a threat, why would she answer you at all?
http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif

There's more responses to this. Mainstream authors are running scared, it's probably because she knows you're better than her, etc.

And on and on it goes.

[LloydBrown]

Yeah, I'm certain that she's worried about her market being eroded 5-10 books at a time by PA book sales.

I'd love to see the actual response. I doubt it was "mean" at all; harsh almost certainly.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, such a threat no one will carry your books and every title sells an average of 75 copies.

I'm shakin' in my boots man. Shakin' in my boots.

Hey, gang, wake up! PA is a threat to no one but their own authors. The Frederick Three have yet to displace or outsell a single bookstore or publisher. Combined their authors probably haven't sold more than the worst of the bestsellers.

How they continue to believe this astounds me.

[Alan Yee]

PA is a threat to the mainstream publishing industry? Oh no! Run! Hide!

The sad truth is that the real publishing industry either laughs at them and thinks they're a joke, or ignores them completely.

There's legitimate small presses out there, like Prime Books, Small Beer Press, and others, who attract way more readers and sell way more books than a dozen average-selling PA authors combined, in much less time.

For example, Prime Books has print runs. Theodora Goss' (who, in case you didn't know already, is, like, my favorite fantasy short story writer ever) first short story collection, In the Forest of Forgetting, sold out its first print run in a matter of one or two months or less. The second print run is out, and there's a paperback edition coming out in March. She has readers who really like her stuff (*ahem* me included), and they actually buy it. Though I'm not sure about the size of the print run, I'm guessing it's significantly more than 75 (your average PA book's total sales). In the Science Fiction and Fantasy community, there's a lot of word-of-mouth buzz about books and story collections, so people hear about them.

PA has *no* print runs, and sells mainly to their own authors and their authors' friends and families. Most people have never heard of any of the books PA puts out, nor seen them in any bookstore. Pretty much, if you publish your book with PA, no one will ever see it or buy it, and you're stuck in a self-contradictory contract for seven years. If you go with them anyway, and become dissatisfied, you'll have one hell of a hard time getting your books' rights back.

So yeah, the moral of this story is pretty much, PublishAmerica sucks (eggs, rocks, a$$, whatever you prefer). Which should be obvious by now. Sigh.

[xhouseboy]

PA has *no* print runs, and sells mainly to their own authors and their authors' friends and families. Most people have never heard of any of the books PA puts out, nor seen them in any bookstore.


One way around this is to do what a PA author just recently did. Accompany a friend into a book store while said friend orders your book. (You see, I'm available in bookstores too). Three days later, the friend returns to collect the book, and is a tad disappointed to discover that she'll have to shell out $31 for the privilege. The clerk explains that as it is a 'self-published' book, it is a lot more expensive.

PA author gets to hear of this, and is also a tad disappointed. Not at the price, at the audacity of the clerk for daring to compare PA with self-publishing.

[Christine N.]

What's REALLY sad is that most PA authors could self-produce a better book than PA puts out for them.

[army_grunt13]

What's REALLY sad is that most PA authors could self-produce a better book than PA puts out for them.

Hence why I'm self-publishing with iUniverse! At least with them I knew what I was getting myself into.

[Joanna_S]

Wow, that entire thread is such a mishmosh of misinformation and delusion. It's like every lie and bad party line PA has in one thread. Like Lloyd, I'd love to see the actual response from the author. From just the little that was quoted it sounds like it was an honest appraisal of the work. I've had people ask me for critiques and I warn them I will be honest. "That's what I want!" they always say. But most of them just want drooling praise. Don't ask for a critique if you're unwilling to hear the bad with the good.

I've got a new book out this month. It's not a masterpiece, nor will it set the world on fire, but it'll probably outsell most PA novels within the first week or less without me lifting a finger (the publisher has good distribution). The "they're afraid of us" lie is an illogical bromide that is constantly trotted out on the PA boards. Well, I guess it keeps people from getting banned from the boards. If anyone dared to question the truth of all these lies, they'd probably end up here faster than you can say "it's not self-publishing."

-- Joanna

[astonwest]

The most telling part of the Info-Monster (just in time for Halloween) response is that PA can't seem to keep track of how many books are sold, who and where they're sold to, and various other facts/pieces of information. But yet, they can keep (presumably) very detailed information on how many responses, e-mails, message board answers, and phone calls they give to each and every author...

D***, I'm glad I have that termination letter...

[Nexusman]

From the PAMB:


Let's say your book's retail price is $20.00 and you buy 50 books at the author's 50% initial discount price of $10.00. You can sell those book at $15.00 each and realize a profit of $250.00. Your customers get a deal and you get all your money back plus $250.00 profit. If you credit card 100 books and sell them at $15.00 each within your credit card no intrest period and pay off your credit card, you have a $500.00 profit.


And here in the real world, if you buy 50 books, it means you have 45 sitting in your garage six months later.

-Nick

[James D. Macdonald]

I doubt it was "mean" at all; harsh almost certainly.

"Harsh" could have been something as mild as "Alas, the book was not quite as gripping as I had hoped it would be." Authors' egos are tender.

PA books aren't any kind of threat to mainstream publishers and authors for one simple reason: They aren't competing with them. PA books aren't taking shelf space away from other authors. All of PA's sales combined since it was founded are less than the sales of just one bestseller -- and there are many bestsellers every year. PA's boasted 30,000 copies of all their titles combined sold in bookstores (special ordered, actually) per year are about the same as the bookstore sales of just one book by a writer who's doing okay but not super.

[James D. Macdonald]

Why in the world would you want a "major" carrier to pick up your book?

Oh, I dunno. 'Cause I like to buy groceries and gas and pay the electric bill, I guess. Oh, and I like to have lots and lots of people read my books, too.

I hope that you realize that in so doing you are coming out on the losing end of the stick. If your book retail $21.95 let say, do you realize that your royalty on just one book would be $1.05 per book. If your book retails for less than that, you receive much less.
Sure, if you're somehow getting a 4.8% royalty. Why would you sign that kind of cruddy contract? On a $21.95 trade paperback, figure on a 12% royalty. That brings in $2.63/book. So if the publisher sells 30,000 copies (not unreasonable), you've got $79,020 in your hand. For a first novel, where 5,000-10,000 sales is more normal, figure $13,170. That's one heck of a "losing end of the stick."

Also, only 25% of all books that are sold are done so from bookstores. That means if you center primarily on bookstores you are loosing 75% of your potential sales.

Woo! This person swallowed PA's line. That's of all books. ""All" books includes textbooks. The Texas state school system doesn't send someone down to Barnes&Noble with a basket to buy their books. That includes lawbooks. Those aren't sold through bookstores. Same with medical texts. Same with engineering reference works. Same with government reports. No bookstore sales expected, but still part of "all" books.

When you look at the kinds of books that are meant for bookstore sales (the novels and general non-fiction -- the same kind of books that PA sells, the only meaningful comparison), a whopping 30% are sold through bookclubs. Are you going to break into that market? How about the wire racks down at the bus station? Those aren't bookstores either. But no PA book has ever broken into the ID market.

Do you know why publishers pay big bucks to get front-of-store placement in bookstores? It's because bookstores are the single best places to sell books. When was the last time you bought a book in the food court of a mall? At a Jiffy-Lube? At a flower shop? Out of the trunk of someone's car? Get real.

Yes, some books move through non-traditional outlets. There's a book being sold in my local hardware store right now. It's published by a regional small press, and it's a non-fiction book on maple-sugaring. It's stacked right next to the maple taps. But you know something? If you were to walk into that same hardware store with your PA-published romance novel, you wouldn't get very far.

You are better off financially to market the book yourself, and put the money in your pocket.

Don't forget to subtract the money you spend on selling those books: the gas, the phonecalls, those clever little bookmarks, the postcards, and the value of your time -- time far better spent on writing your next book.

[AnneMarble]

I'd love to see the actual response. I doubt it was "mean" at all; harsh almost certainly.
Actually, I'm surprised the author agreed to give any kind of feedback at all. (That is, assuming she agreed to this ahead of time and that the book wasn't just sent to her without her agreeing to help!) It was really nice of her to even agree to look at it, and her gift of time and trouble has been thrown back in her face. If she gets wind of the PA authors' reaction, you can bet that the next time an aspiring author asks this author for feedback, the author will remember this incident and say "No way"! :(

IIRC many authors refuse to look at books from authors they don't know because they don't have the time to read all those books as a favor when they should be working on their own. Also, some authors are worried about dealing with potential lawsuits later if one of their books happens to have a teensy tiny bit of similarity to one of the books they've read.

[Alien Enigma]

People have been trying to get me to post here. Here I am. What can I do for you? Did some of you only want me to make an appearance or what?

[Bufty]

Sorry - wrong number.

People have been trying to get me to post here. Here I am. What can I do for you? Did some of you only want me to make an appearance or what?

[Christine N.]

I don't think so... someone just made an observation that we hadn't seen any PA authors in a while.

[xhouseboy]

Seeing as you're here, Jeff, in your opinion why was it that PA infocentre deleted the tail-end of that message to the PA author who had questioned them as to why s/he couldn't get any response to numerous queries. Y'know, the part of the message that took a dig at the author for daring to question their competence. That has to be a first. They developing a conscience, or what?

And just as a matter of interest, if they ever responded to you in like fashion, would you still stay with them?

[AnneMarble]

That has to be a first. They developing a conscience, or what?
I think they're developing an Or What. If they had developed a conscience, they'd simply admit they are a thinly disguised vanity press, not a "traditional publisher" (whatever that is), and make things easier for their authors in lots of other ways. But at this point, they would need a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Past, etc., to push them in that path.

I think it's more likely they're running out of writers to push around, so they find that they have to appear to be kinder (at least on the surface!) to the ones they managed to snare this time. They will still feed them lies, of course, but maybe they will do so without hitting the authors on the head with a frying pan.

Or maybe Larry found out that the cop who gave him that ticket for going the wrong way was a PA author, and he was afraid of getting more tickets. :D

[TwentyFour]

I have to ask, was this on the private or public board? If on the public board, it would appear it is only for appearances.

[James D. Macdonald]

Also, only 25% of all books that are sold are done so from bookstores. That means if you center primarily on bookstores you are loosing 75% of your potential sales.

I just went over to the PA board to find the fellow who said that, and discovered, a bit down the thread, the same guy saying:

Before my books were published I had only been to Barnes and Nobles once and Borders twice in a 40 year period. Since I have been published I can count on one hand how many times I have been to those stores and still have fingers left over.

Wow. Talk about getting your advice from an expert.

That said, I've looked at his books. This is a guy who would have been far wiser (if he was looking to avoid "the losing end of the stick" and being "better off financially") to have just had a local printshop run off his books. His unit cost for them would be significantly lower and he'd sell just as many. (He's selling specialized religious non-fiction, and has a platform. I don't doubt that his sales outside of bookstores are far better than the average PA author.)

[spike]

I have to ask, was this on the private or public board? If on the public board, it would appear it is only for appearances.

It was on the public board. I'm sure it was for appearances. Since the public board is read by potential authors, I was surprised that PA would post such a snarky response.

[army_grunt13]

QUOTE: Let's say your book's retail price is $20.00 and you buy 50 books at the author's 50% initial discount price of $10.00. You can sell those book at $15.00 each and realize a profit of $250.00. Your customers get a deal and you get all your money back plus $250.00 profit. If you credit card 100 books and sell them at $15.00 each within your credit card no intrest period and pay off your credit card, you have a $500.00 profit.

Reading this, and the comments about "losing" 75% of potential sales by having one's books in *gasp* bookstores reminded me of an episode of Family Guy (for anyone who's never seen the show, skip the rest of this post, because the joke won't seem as funny). I remember Chris (the teenage son, voiced by Seth Green) saying, "When I stick this little army man up my nose, it tickles my brain. . .DOH!. . .now I don't know math!" Think these people have been sticking too many little army men up their noses???:D

[Joanna_S]

From that PAMB thread about the PAer rejected by the famous author:

YOUR book is GREAT...I haven't read it, but YOU wrote it..IT is published and so that MAKES your book GREAT..who knows where you'll be in twenty years!!

Now I understand that this is probably just cheerleading, but I've seen this over and over again on PAMB -- they judge greatness without ever reading the material. No one ever sees the disconnect in these statements. I think these "you're great" sayers are really trying to convince themselves of the same. Their books aren't selling, their royalties are a buck or two, the dreams of their books becoming bestsellers are over so they shore up their egos in the only way left -- the very act of writing a book becomes a form of greatness. Getting it 'published' by a printer who's been proven to accept everyone also has to be fantasized into the equivalent of Random House so that dream of greatness can be real. Anyone who doesn't agree with this definition of greatness is jealous, evil, or malicious. The philosophy of "I write therefore I'm great" must survive regardless of reality.

-- Joanna

[Gravity]

People have been trying to get me to post here. Here I am. What can I do for you? Did some of you only want me to make an appearance or what?

Jeff, I don't believe anyone specifically called you, unless it was me, upthread, just wondering why our visits from the PA faithful have dropped off so dramatically. You're welcome to stay and visit, of course.

[TwentyFour]

Gravity, he (JM) cannot accept PA as a Vanity, so therefore he will run and stick his head in the sand.

[Gravity]

Gravity, he (JM) cannot accept PA as a Vanity, so therefore he will run and stick his head in the sand.

I know. And that's sad. Although if he's thrilled at selling maybe forty copies of his book to his buddies down at the gym, I'm thrilled for him. Most writers want more than that (I do), but to each his own.

[SC Harrison]

I know. And that's sad. Although if he's thrilled at selling maybe forty copies of his book to his buddies down at the gym, I'm thrilled for him. Most writers want more than that (I do), but to each his own.

When my PA book first came out, I got excited every time someone ordered my book. I kept thinking, "This is just the beginning, once my book gets exposure, the sales will keep growing and growing."

Just the opposite occurred. After the initial sales to friends and family, sales dropped off to nothing, then the banging against the brick wall started. It was nearly impossible to get a newspaper to review the book, bookstores wouldn't stock it and some wouldn't even order it. I was sorely tempted to buy a batch and place them on consignment, but luckily I was drawn to AW, and Uncle Jim's pledge made enough sense to stay my hand.

I want more too, John, and one day I will be published the right way. But I'm not going to let my ego blind me to the truth ever again. At least as far as publishing goes. :)

[Gravity]

I tried explaining to Jeff that I too once was a PA author, until I realized what the score was. After the requisite self-administered butt-kicking, I then wrote three more novels, and they've since been picked up by a good mid-sized commercial house. (Oh yeah, after getting the rights back to my PA book this past February I rewrote that, and now my agent's shopping it around). But Jeff made it clear to everyone here on AW that in his opinion PA hung the moon and sprinkled stardust on his work, and I for one couldn't be happier for him.

[SeanDSchaffer]

I don't think so... someone just made an observation that we hadn't seen any PA authors in a while.


That's weird. Usually we have at least a couple people come over from the PAMB to at least say 'hello'. I wonder if PA is cracking down more on posts about sites such as AW than they used to?

It really is a shame that a publishing company can hold such control over its authors. That they would keep their authors from good writing sites, just bothers me.

But then again, the sites don't have a very favorable opinion of PublishAmerica. After all, why let authors know how the real industry works when they've got their authors trapped in their clutches?


Sorry, guys. Just my usual rambling. Carry on.

[endless rewrite]

Can you believe it? If I were to make a character deliver this line it would get a great laugh.

I do not go to bookstores as they do not benefit me at all, or any other author for that matter.
PAMB

From the anti-bookstore author/expert who has more than his books on consignment in the closet.

[SeanDSchaffer]

I do not go to bookstores as they do not benefit me at all, or any other author for that matter.

Interesting. So bookstores don't benefit any author? That doesn't seem exactly right to me, considering all the people I see going in to bookstores, and the decent amount of mega-bookstores opening up all through my area.

I feel bad for this person, because he/she has, in my opinion, a major problem with statistics. This statement sounds to me like it is based on the old PA line "Most books are sold on the Internet".

Well, this is not to say that a substantial number does not sell on the Net, but it is to say that I wager a larger portion of people prefer to get their books from a shelf immediately, and read them when they get home. I don't know many people who like to purchase a book before they know anything about it or its author. The best way I've seen to review a book is to open it up and look for oneself. It's a little difficult to do that over the Internet.

[Christine N.]

I think that most people who buy books on the 'net are looking for a specific book, one they already know about. Browsing for books online is difficult, whereas browsing in the store is easy (and fun!). You can hold the book, flip through, read the cover. You can sort of do it on the web, but I don't think it's as easy to do.

But, if you never GO to a bookstore and don't know people actually DO browse for books, I can see how you'd believe that more books are sold on the net.

[LloydBrown]

Yet again, I'd like to ask anti-bookstore guy "How's that working out for you?"

[Saundra Julian]

LOL@ Lloyd!

I haven't been on the PAMB in ages but the rhetoric over there never seems to change. It's sad to see so many people taken in by that unadulterated crap!

That's like buying a herd of dairy cows and saying, "I'm not going to try and get my milk in supermarkets. Nobody goes to supermarkets to buy milk. I'm going to sell my milk out of my truck!

Well, you get the idea...

[ByGrace]

This thread is so sad over at the PAMB. With so much information on the internet, many writers and poets still do not know how exactly PA operates. The person that began the thread wanted to know in another how many copies PA sends to all the online bookstores. Honey, the answer is zero.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=17216

[LeslieB]

To me the saddest part is "why is Publish America dealing with a book store that is so unreliable." It doesn't sink in that Barnes & Noble is not the problem here.

[army_grunt13]

To me the saddest part is "why is Publish America dealing with a book store that is so unreliable." It doesn't sink in that Barnes & Noble is not the problem here. I read the same thing. The intial post almost made me cry (figuratively speaking) since she thought that her book was "sold out." I'm also curious about her remark "I've already got the book stores taken care of." I wonder how long it will be before Miss Cheryl sees the light? What upsets me the most is that when people do finally see the light, it is always a very painful experience for them, both emotionally and professionally. And of course they are always in the wrong, it is NEVER PA's fault! God forbid they ever thought about taking a little constructive criticism.

[Christine N.]

There there's this...

I read somewhere that a lot of printers/publishers are converting to this technology to cut costs... which, in the long run, produces better products.


Uh... no. Some might be switching to digital printing, which is cheaper for smaller print runs, but I don't know anyone switching to POD as a business model.

Where do they get this stuff?

Yeah, B&N is unreliable.

There was another thread somewhere in there where the author is having a terrible time getting stores to get her books for signings. I think also B&N. Here's how it goes.. B&N's all have regional distribution centers. If the dist. center doesn't have it, individual stores can not get it in. Once in a while a store will order direct from the publisher - I've had them do that when B&T was out of copies and needed them quickly.

But you KNOW they aren't going to order direct from PA. There's just too many problems, and NO returnability.

Sigh.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's what BN.com says about her book:

NEW - OUT OF STOCK
A new copy is not available from Barnes & Noble.com at this time.

Here's what Amazon.com says about her book:

Availability: Usually ships within 9 to 12 days.

Lordie, that's sad. And this for a book that just got released this August.

But as I look at that thread, I see another author say:

I just stopped by B&N and tried to order my book. It has been out since early June and have never had a problem getting an order filled and neither have other purchasers BUT thoday I went in and the clerk said she would try to order it but the vendor may cancel the order and I wouldn't get it.

That sounds like PA may be on credit hold with B&N.

[Arkie]

The problem is deception on PA’s part, and Barnes and Noble unwittingly aids and abets the problem. My local B&N staff is adamant in their refusal to stock POD books, which includes vanity, PA-reverse vanity, self-publishing, and that includes the iUniverse book, which is thought by many stockable in B&N brick and mortar stores. But it is a corporate decision which books gets purchased and even where they placed within the store, and currently POD books are not acceptable, at least locally. There is simply not enough shelf space for all the POD books coming out, even if restricted to only locally produced books.

And while B&N store management keeps POD books out of their brick and mortar stores, B&N allows those same books placed on the internet B&N on-line store, and they allow the books to be purchased WITHIN the brick & mortar store, AND PAID THROUGH THE CASH REGISTER for HOME DELIVERY (not delivery TO THE store). The PAYMENT IN ADVANCE and HOME DELIVERY only order effectively stops the author from plying the old trick of ordering her book for delivery to the store, then refusing to pick it up, in the belief the store will shelve it.

Here is where the PA author, especially the new one, is misled, because PA’s advertising states that their books may be purchased THROUGH brick and mortar stores; this is technically correct; however, THROUGH is not the same as IN.

Soon after the book comes out, the book is posted for sale in the B&N on-line store, and I believe the assumption is natural for the inexperienced author to think that means it could also be shelved in the physical store. B&N is happy to take profits off a POD in one form, but not another, a bit hypocritical in my view, but it’s book business. It takes the new PA author a few weeks to get this all sorted out, while they try a variety of zany promotional efforts, hit the streets with a trunk load of books, and usually spend a great deal more than they will ever recoup in sales. Of course, on the PAMB, there is always a success story now and then, a breakthrough, a placement in some store somewhere, and it is the postings of these little successes that keep the authors motivated and allows PA to recruit yet another aspiring author.

[Joanna_S]

And then there are those PA authors who simply lie to pretend success, like the guy who had 10 adoring fans with books at the next table in a restaurant. The liars are usually believed and this also motivates. The new PA authors get it from every angle.

-- Joanna

[Gravity]

I'm trying to see things from the PA author's viewpoint. I really am. But with so much out on the Net about them by this point, that task daily grows more difficult. Lurkers, it simply isn't that hard to Google the name "PublishAmerica", grab a cup of coffee, and settle down to read. The ball really is in your court.

Some will do that, but sadly, most won't. I'm starting to feel that most of the PA deluded now fall into the willingly deluded camp. And that mindset simply cannot be fixed.

[Sheryl Nantus]

I'm trying to see things from the PA author's viewpoint. I really am. But with so much out on the Net about them by this point, that task daily grows more difficult. Lurkers, it simply isn't that hard to Google the name "PublishAmerica", grab a cup of coffee, and settle down to read. The ball really is in your court.

Some will do that, but sadly, most won't. I'm starting to feel that most of the PA deluded now fall into the willingly deluded camp. And that mindset simply cannot be fixed.

that's the point I made before - while a few years ago the scam was fresh and the paint was still wet on the Internet for Googling PA I could understand people tripping into this...

now, I have to wonder about the mentality of those who willfully put out such misinformation like "I do not go to bookstores as they do not benefit me at all, or any other author for that matter." and having these lies taken as gospel by the other PA victims. It just boggles the mind.

[army_grunt13]

now, I have to wonder about the mentality of those who willfully put out such misinformation like "I do not go to bookstores as they do not benefit me at all, or any other author for that matter." and having these lies taken as gospel by the other PA victims. It just boggles the mind. Sheryl, there are a lot of not-so-nice people in the world. They are on the take with PA, and for them deception is just part of the job.

[Joanna_S]

I don't know if they're on the take. To me it sounds like someone justifying his decisions. It's a lot harder to admit you've been had, or have made a big mistake. It's easier to justify the error by turning it into a 'good' decision.

Some people on that board appear happy with the reality of PA. It's probably the best they could hope for (they get to say they have a book published and get to pretend it's not vanity). Others spend a great deal of time justifying their decision by putting down others (the big authors are all jealous) twisting truth (not a vanity) or simply making themselves feel better (big publisher conspiracy). As long as they're the victim of others and not of PA, all is well in their world. The final group, the ones who are waking up to reality, are the ones most likely to make their way here and will try to get out of their contract and make a real career. Those are the ones it would be nice to reach ahead of time.

-- Joanna

[Arkie]

"I do not go to bookstores, as they do not benefit me at all, or any other author for that matter."

If "PA" is inserted between "other" and "author" that is a true statement, and that may be the way the poster meant it. For brick and mortar bookstores are of no benefit to PA authors. PA authors can't, as a general rule, get their books in them, and even if they are able to place a book or two in a chain store, without personal hands-on promotion by the author, no one is going to know the book is there, and if placement is on the top two or bottom two shelves, browsers are likely to not even see it.

So the question for the PA author is: is it worth my time to try to sell my book to the store manager to get a shelf placement?--because I am going to have to tell a prospective buyer where it is, and even give directions as to where the book may be located within the store, or is it better just to keep books on hand and deal with a prospective buyers myself, perhaps allowing a little discount off the sales price. Every PA author, and I guess most POD authors, are faced with this question; do I try to push it in the store, or take the easy route and sell it myself. There are a variety of venues whereby books can be sold if the author has the moxie, such as flea markets, out of the car trunk, a booth at the county fair (works well for cook books), and perhaps an independent book store on consignment, or used book store on consignment. It just depends on how much shoe leather the author wants to burn and how much disposable funds she has on hand to buy her own books.

The first wake-up call for any PA author is to learn that the printer does not care one whit, if she sells one book to the public, as long as she uses the author discount and buys from them. Author discount sales make their production costs. Other sales are simply gravy. It doesn't take the PA author long to realize that PA got the goldmine and she got the shaft.

[postshy]

I have not been around for a while, but I have been lurking. I agree with you, Gravity. You would think that, by now, the world would have awakened to the scam that is PA. However, just recently I had an example of why they manage to stay in business. All a PA author wants to hear is "Wow, you mean you have been published". Those people who have never written a book are greatly impressed such as the children (and their parents) in my daughter's class when she showed them her book on the PA site. It is a full colour book, art work done by her, and PA has given her nothing but the "shaft" on it. It might have had a chance elsewhere, but PA made their grab and so it is dead for seven years as far as sales, or promotion, go, but she is happy.

As long as they are people out there to say: "My God, you are published!" with awe in their voices, there will be a PA. Remember this audience does not do research.

For those who have escaped, or are trying to escape PA's clutches, there is always hope if you never give up. I am happy to report that I have a nibble and am working very hard to make it a great big bite. Meanwhile, since PA still holds my first book prisoner, I hope it chokes them and it well may. I will use my maiden name for my next book IF I make it.

That's all for now,

postshy/Roberta

[ByGrace]

Through recent correspondence with some PA authors, I am seeing there is another side to why some writers have gone with PA. Yes, there is a lot of information on the net, and anyone in their right mind that sees it would run. I wish it had been around when I gave them my books, but it wasn't. And what happened to me is happening to others in this scenario.

Example: A writer is in a writers group. A member recommends PA to them. The other member has recently had a book accepted or come out and hasn't seen the light yet. They encourage the writer to submit to PA. The writer, trusting their friend’s opinion, submits and immediately receives an acceptance. The writer is overjoyed and signs, without checking PA out first.

This happened to me but in another way. My first book with PA was signed in 2000. There were red flags waving in front of my blind eyes then and I should have stayed away. But when I was submitting the next book to a few agents and getting nowhere a fellow PA author asked me why not go with PA again, that it was a way for me to build my author's resume. I'm to blame, but her 'pep talk' gave me a push, and after a luncheon with a PA CEO and hearing all that PA would do for one of their best authors, I signed again. This was also at a time when little was online about them. What I should have done is kept submitting to agents, but impatience got the best of me.

There are writers who trust their friends' opinions and then act on the suggestion. I've learned not to take anyone's advice, to check things out on my own, to look before I leap. As a result my partial has been requested by a major publisher and by a well-respected agent. What may come of it I do not know, but at least this time with patience and continued perseverance, my little toe got in the door and I have the sense to not settle for a publisher like PA. Never, never again!

So the information is online everywhere. We have to get this information out to our fellow writers by including it in emails, putting links in newsletters we write and putting links on our websites.

Victoria and Ann compiled a list of the worse agents. We need a list of the worse publishers as well.

[xhouseboy]

C'mere you. Seems to me you need re-educated on how this game works. So tell me, why in the world would you want a "major" carrier to pick up your book?

I just do. That's my goal. I've always aspired to seeing my book on the shelves.

Oh, you plonker. Listen and learn. I hope you realize that if that happens you are coming out on the losing end of the stick. If your book retail $21.95 let say, do you realize that your royalty on just one book would be $1.05 per book. If your book retails for less than that, you receive much less.

Jeez, I certainly don't want that. By the way, thanks for taking the time to explain all this to me.

You're welcome. And listen, only 25% of all books that are sold are done so from bookstores. That means if you center primarily on bookstores you are loosing 75% of your potential sales.

I'm listening. And I'm learning. God, I'm so glad I've got somebody like you to set me straight here. For years I was labouring under the impression that a lot of books were actually sold from these stores. So what are they, fronts for drug-cartels or something like that? Money laundering operations?

I wouldn't know, I've never been in one. All I know is they're no good to man or beast, and especially not to authors. Any authors who express an interest in having their books in these stores, well, to be quite frank, they're needing their heads looked at. Take my word, you are better off financially to market the book yourself, and put the money in your pocket.

Oh, I will. I will. You've enlightened me. Just one final question - won't my pockets be full of books?

[SC Harrison]

For those PA lurkers who actually believe the "bookstores are a waste of time" myth, let me tell you what I think:

the presence of a book in a bookstore means (at least) one thing—the quality of the writing and the marketability of the product itself has been vetted and found acceptable. It may ride the shelf for months, only to migrate to the discount table, but several professionals along the way deemed it had potential.

As much as it hurts to think about, your PA book was not vetted by professionals to see if it had merit, and the only market that's being targeted is you and yours. It might be a decent book, but that isn't why PA chose to publish it. The book is merely a vehicle to extract money from you, period.

Now, if you believe selling your book out of your trunk or at flea markets is fun, more power to you. If being the "inventor" of a unique product that you can sell to others is what drives you, go for it. But that's not what writers do, that's what salespeople do. PA peddles books to you, then you turn around and peddle them to others. If that's what you want, fine.

Here's the reality check—you will never sell more than a few hundred copies, you will never achieve your dream of becoming famous (don't even try to deny it), and no matter how you do the math, you probably won't break even, much less make a decent profit. And the worst part is, your writing will never evolve into something that might allow you to one day achieve some of these dreams.

I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

[bgeauthor]

Have been robbed by Publish America twice! Two checks have gone by and they are absolutely ridiculous. The last check was for 10 books, when I know for a fact, that just one of the store where I had a book signing ordered ten. So this check did not include the countless other who bought my book. It took me five years to write my book, and I have had a lot of interest from the film industry for film rights, I want out of PA. How can I do that? They are totally dishonest.

[JerseyGirl1962]

It took me five years to write my book, and I have had a lot of interest from the film industry for film rights, I want out of PA. How can I do that? They are totally dishonest.

BGE,

Sorry to hear about your plight. However, this is an indexing thread, so you might not get too many answers. I'd post your question in the big Neverending PA Thread (the New NEPAT).

Good luck to you!

~Nancy

[Sparhawk]

For those PA lurkers who actually believe the "bookstores are a waste of time" myth, let me tell you what I think:

the presence of a book in a bookstore means (at least) one thing—the quality of the writing and the marketability of the product itself has been vetted and found acceptable. It may ride the shelf for months, only to migrate to the discount table, but several professionals along the way deemed it had potential.

As much as it hurts to think about, your PA book was not vetted by professionals to see if it had merit, and the only market that's being targeted is you and yours. It might be a decent book, but that isn't why PA chose to publish it. The book is merely a vehicle to extract money from you, period.

Now, if you believe selling your book out of your trunk or at flea markets is fun, more power to you. If being the "inventor" of a unique product that you can sell to others is what drives you, go for it. But that's not what writers do, that's what salespeople do. PA peddles books to you, then you turn around and peddle them to others. If that's what you want, fine.

Here's the reality check—you will never sell more than a few hundred copies, you will never achieve your dream of becoming famous (don't even try to deny it), and no matter how you do the math, you probably won't break even, much less make a decent profit. And the worst part is, your writing will never evolve into something that might allow you to one day achieve some of these dreams.

I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

Amen, well said. Yes.. I lost money on my PA book and sadly.. yes I was my biggest customer.

[Christine N.]

Oh dear Dogs..

Amazon bought its own vanity, pay to publish company that uses print on demand. And, Amazon, is providing products to consumers in much the same way that PublishAmerica is providing books to amazon and other customers. From Amazon's point of view, it acquires product only as the demand arises Amazon has no warehouses storing clothing, jewelry, musical instruments or books. Like Publishamerica, Amazon provides its products on demand."

This is the biggest bunch of garbage I've ever read. I've SEEN one of the Amazon warehouses. Tons and tons and TONS of books. I agree, they use outside vendors for other things, but for non-POD books, they do indeed stock a few copies in their many warehouses located all across the country. I don't know about outside the U.S.

Then we find out where this whopper came from...

That quote was takedn from "How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz" written by the founder and CEO of PublishAmerica, Willem Meiners.

Ah, I see. You always believe everything you read? Willie's book should be sheleved in the Fantasy section.

So, as Paul Harvey would say Now, you know the rest of the story. When someone orders from Amazon the item is printed on demand just like PublishAmerica. PublishAmerica does not have your book on the shevles of their bookstore and neither does Amazon.

This statment is only true as far as PA books and other POD outfits are concerned. They actually DO order physical copies of books by places like Random House and Scholastic. For books that may not have as much demand, they may order from the wholesaler or publisher direct. But those books probably physically exist somewhere, and Amazon surely does have warehouses.

I find it strange that in business it is easier and more acceptable to lie to a customer than to tell the truth.

And yet, there you are, hooked up to the company where lying happens more than several times a day.

Thank goodness for Willime Meiners who had the guts to stand up and tell the truth.

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[Nexusman]

Ah, I see. You always believe everything you read? Willie's book should be sheleved in the Fantasy section.

As a fantasy author, I take offense to the association.

Hey Willie, here's a review for you: :e2moon:

-Nick

[LloydBrown]

Not to mention that Amazon is a retailer, not a manufacturer. They're not supposed to stock every item deeply, and yet I'm sure they get restocked daily.

[Christine N.]

As a fantasy author, I take offense to the association.



Me too, but, but ya know, what else can we call it? It's not SF...

I know, I know.... Horror!

[ResearchGuy]

...I have to wonder about the mentality of those who willfully put out such misinformation like "I do not go to bookstores as they do not benefit me at all, or any other author for that matter." ...
Perhaps that statement reflects the difference between self-described "authors" and working writers. The latter understand the need to be familiar with what is in the market, what is selling, and what the public -- esp. the target audience -- is buying.

How sad not to browse bookstores, not to discover what is new, what is interesting, what is timely, and what is timeless. How can anyone who does not love (or at least respect!) books and the places that sell them (especially bookstores) and lend them (libraries) write books, let alone books anyone will want to read?

--Ken

[Sassenach]

Well, he's apparently too busy curing homosexuals in Oklahoma.

And then there's this poor schnook:

I thought this would be a paying proposition. I don't know why I had that idea. I actually thought I would write a book, I would be chased after for newspaper, radio and tv interviews. People would be lining up for my signature. Books would be running off the shelves. I would be the envy of my friends and family. Thud. Nothing. No newspaper stories or tv or radio or sales (well, a few). Friends complain about the price of the book and are waiting to borrow mine. They won't even tell their friends that I am an author until they read it to be sure they should recommend it. It's like it's a shameful secret instead of a matter of pride. I'm well-known in my communities and someone should have taken notice. Nope. Business as usual. So, I don't feel any different, either. The one good thing is the messageboards. I have learned plenty and continue to learn. That is good.

[SC Harrison]

Amen, well said. Yes.. I lost money on my PA book and sadly.. yes I was my biggest customer.

Maybe so, Spar, but your words of advice have kept a few PA authors (including me) from making the same mistake, so please keep that in mind. It might not put any vittles on the table, but your karma's in good shape. :)

[xhouseboy]

The one good thing is the messageboards. I have learned plenty and continue to learn. That is good.

Only problem there being it's a steep learning curve (almost vertical) and it's in the wrong direction.

[James D. Macdonald]

Amazon did indeed buy a POD vanity press. It's Booksurge, one of the more expensive, less reliable ones (which might explain why they were for sale).

Amazon has also experimented with publishing.

Nevertheless, the vast majority of the books Amazon sells are printed by others, and warehoused and distributed in the usual way.

[James D. Macdonald]

...I want out of PA. How can I do that? They are totally dishonest.

They release people at random. Telling them that you are not going to promote the book and promising that you are not personally going to buy any copies sometimes works.

The actual reliable way to get released is to go to arbitration. This is especially useful if you have proof (receipts etc.) that your book sold more copies than they accounted for.

[Steven Pollack]

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people

H. L. Mencken

[TwentyFour]

If someone does NOT buy the copyright when PA says to, will PA drop them?

[SeanDSchaffer]

If someone does NOT buy the copyright when PA says to, will PA drop them?


I seem to remember someone not registering their copyright, and PublishAmerica printing the book anyway. I think that was shortly after I joined this board in March of 2005. Exactly when or who it was, I do not remember.

[Maddog]

Hope this format is okay. I'm on my laptop and cut and paste is cumbersome. I cannot believe the misinformation being tossed around here. Bah!


Publish America stated that the books are order on demand, however if the Barnes and Noble website states your book is out of stock it cant be ordered online. If it is ordered on demand then how can it be out of stock. Also Barnes and Noble stores here in Florida are not being very nice about book signings I am basically going through pure hell trying to get a book signing. Every time I call a store they say to send a letter telling what the title is, ISBN number and what the genre of the book is and the target audience. Well I have done all that. The Comunity Relations managers are basically rude and I am considering trying to go out of state to see if I can get better results. I have done everything they have asked and still no book signing. I would think they would be delighted that any author would want to come to their store but it seems that they are being very rude about it. I am at my wits end with this. Any help from anyone before I am bald from pulling my hair out. I have been more than curtious to them, done everything they have asked and I know that the genre of my book is more than marketable and is selling well. In the first three weeks it was released I sold over 50 copies and that was just to associates and coworkers. So its not like the book is not selling. Anyone else having any problems from barnes and noble.
_________________


No.

_________________

Go through the "search" feature on the PA message boards and type in "Bookstores". I think you will find what you are looking for there.

Best of luck to you!
_________________


Don't feel to bad many bookstores will not ever carry our books PERIOD. There are various reasons that I will not go into right now but if you contact me via my website I will explain them to you.

To be honest with you, it is not practical to have your book on their bookstore shelves. If your book retails for $17.95 you will only make .87 cents for each one sold.

Yes just because barnes and Nobles says your book is out of stock does not mean that someone cannot order it because they can. It simply means that they don't have any on their shelves, and probably will not.

PA alone has over 17,000 authors not to mention the ones from other publishing companies. If Barnes and Nobles was to carry one copy of each new book they would have to add 17 feet of board space per day for a year and even then they would not be able to handle the books.

_________________

Our books are available for purchase online, which is pretty big business these days.

Tom is right. Imagine if you will a mega bookstore that carries all new books released by every publisher, including us. You would need a GPS or compass just to find your way in and out, and what direction you are in.

While I would love to have my work available coast to coast in any of the major bookstore chains, I actually prefer to conduct business online.

_________________

Everyone is not reading what I posted. I am strictly talking about Barnes and Noble website not the stores. I dont expect the store to carry my book however it says online it is out of stock and you cant even order it from online. That is the problem. I appreciate all your feedback but I am talking about the B&N Website. If you cant order the book from the website then you cant order it from the store either because they use the same way to order through their website.
_________________
You've got more than that to worry about - your web site also doesn't work.
If you have a problem with B&N, why don't you contact them?
_________________


Cheryl,

Barnes & Nobles, Borders and Waldenbooks DO NOT have websites. Let me explain

If you will notice their websites say Barnes and Noble has teamed up with Amazon. Borders has teamed up with Amazon, etc. I made the mistakes of telling an owner/manager that my books were listed on their website. When he was through laughing I felt like a fool.

What has happened is that those websites are owned by Amazon and those stores, like many of us authors are ASSOCIATES of Amazon. When someone goes to the B&N website they are actually ordering from Amazon and B& N receives a percentage of the sales back so do all the other stores.

Don't worry if it says unavaiable that does not matter in the least. You are worrying about something that does not need to be worried about. I assure you that Amazon will take the order and have it filled. Both of my books are listed as out of stock but I know for a fact that people have ordered them from those websites. What it is saying is that your book is POD and means it has to be ordered thus it is out of stock. In stock means that it is on their shelves waiting to be sent.

I hope this clarifies some of this. Don't worry about the what the bookstore website says. I would make sure that your website has a link to Amazon and to Publishamerica and of course you should have one where someone can order directly from you.

__________________

A week or so ago I looked in on Amazon and saw that they lhad my book listed as only available through other sellers. I immediately contacted both Amazon and PA, and the problem was not only resolved, but Amazon added more features. Amazon told me that they had probably just sold out what they had in stock and were waiting to be sure it could be restocked. PA emailed me to reassure me that my book was listed as available again - and it was. It was all fixed in a little over 24 hours. Have you contacted either B&N or PA?


_________________




If Amazon told you that they did not have your book in stock they LIED to you. You might be interested in the following quote.

"Amazon bought its own vanity, pay to publish company that uses print on demand. And, Amazon, is providing products to consumers in much the same way that PublishAmerica is providing books to amazon and other customers. From Amazon's point of view, it acquires product only as the demand arises Amazon has no warehouses storing clothing, jewelry, musical instruments or books. Like Publishamerica, Amazon provides its products on demand." That quote was takedn from "How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz" written by the founder and CEO of PublishAmerica, Willem Meiners.

So, as Paul Harvey would say Now, you know the rest of the story. When someone orders from Amazon the item is printed on demand just like PublishAmerica. PublishAmerica does not have your book on the shevles of their bookstore and neither does Amazon.

I find it strange that in business it is easier and more acceptable to lie to a customer than to tell the truth. Thank goodness for Willime Meiners who had the guts to stand up and tell the truth.

You really need to purchase his book it has a wealth of information.



_________________


My point was that the situation was corrected immediately when I contacted PA and Amazon.

I'm not that concerned about where the books are stocked, so long as Amazon sells them at the list price.

_________________

Thanks Tom for clearing that up then I should tell people to order from Amazon then instead to save a hassle. Thanks for clearing that up.
_________________


I did contact them Dick I havent heard from them yet and yes I know my website is down right now. Im in the process of redoing it so that is why it is not available. Im sure by the weekend I will have my website up and running.
_________________

[Gravity]

Said it before, said it again. My compassion level for the PA cheerleaders is rapidly draining out. When someone is willingly dense, that's hard to get past. Lurkers, repeat this mantra: "Google is my friend."

[army_grunt13]

Hope this format is okay. I'm on my laptop and cut and paste is cumbersome. I cannot believe the misinformation being tossed around here. Bah! All I can say is "Huh?" I've read some of her other postings, which makes me feel even worse for her. Where I'm confused is first she's complaining about B&N not doing any booksignings for her (hence going to the actual stores), but then she states that it is the website she has problems with. Also, last time I checked, B&N and Amazon were NOT partners in any way that I am aware of.

[Maddog]

This poor lady just asked a simple question and they all jumped down her throat. This quote is laughable. Real publishers know how many books are selling. If what this guy says is true, what hope does an author have at getting an accurate royalty check???http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=199480)

I imagine I've seen this question on book sales posted over a hundred times and evidently the answers go un-read or un-noticed.

If anyone out there is able to find out how many books have been sold, I'm sure the publisher would really like to hear from them. The publishers and distributers, bookstores, clerks, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Borders in fact, no one knows how many books have been sold!

Books may have been ordered from a publisher but they aren't sold until the bookstore has money in hand and usually the publisher doesn't count them as sold until they have been paid, a process that can take up to 90 days. Also, if the publisher has a return policy, they can't even count the books ordered as truly 'sold'.

Distributers such as Ingrams are only able to give an idea of how many books have gone through their system. There are other distributers and none of them indicate how many books are returned to their warehouses from bookstores as un-sold.

Every writer should forget about trying to find out how well their book is selling, since it is an exercize in futility. Your time is better spent on promoting your work and constantly striving to better your creative writing skills.

Good luck anyway. I've gotta stop writing, now. I want to check how well my books are doing on Amazon! http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[SC Harrison]

Lord have mercy. I'm actually glad PA blocked me from even looking at their website, as I'm not tempted to keep reading such nonsense.

PA lurkers, every time you have to redirect someone to an alternate source to purchase your book because they can't get it where they want to, this should set off alarms. What about your friends who are members of B&N's discount program? Or Borders'?

Availability was one of the key issues that caused me to give up trying to sell my PA book. If you can imagine how embarassing it is to have to continually explain that "out of stock" doesn't really mean out of stock, and "not available" is just some clever code that distributors use to designate Print On Demand technology, and waiting four plus weeks for delivery is normal , even when the book has been out for only a few months, blah blah blah.

For those who can't seem to get a sensible response from the PAMB, let me help: your concerns are legitimate, and they will seriously impact your ability to promote your expensive book. When you find yourself deciding that the only way it will work is to be your own distributor, so you'll always have a copy available if someone is interested, you have just taken a step deeper into Vanity Publishing.

You know what? Just say no. Tell yourself, "I never wanted to be a salesperson. That's not why I wrote the book in the first place, and I'm not going to allow circumstances to change my mind. I'm not writing a check or using my charge card to buy my books."

Once you make this decision, your life will get better, I promise.

[Susan Gable]

Just to prove that the one PA poster has no clue what he/she is talking about, and also obviously no internet search skills, here are a couple of photos of Amazon's "non-existant" warehouses that I pulled up via a very quick (i.e. 2 minutes) search:



http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.discoverbedfordshire.co.uk/images/jun04-amazon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.discoverbedfordshire.co.uk/article.php%3Fissueopen%3D1%26id%3D10&h=223&w=240&sz=9&hl=en&start=15&tbnid=U8t5Siuvk-2RwM:&tbnh=102&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAmazon%2B%2526%2Bwarehouse%2B%2526%26 svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39191000/jpg/_39191178_amazonpa_203.jpg&imgrefurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3009600.stm&h=152&w=203&sz=10&hl=en&start=25&tbnid=zEPvTSy_OO40XM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=105&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAmazon%2B%2526%2Bwarehouse%2B%2526%26 start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr %3D%26sa%3DN

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/holidayshopping/stories/online.shopping/story.warehouse.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/holidayshopping/stories/online.shopping.html&h=168&w=220&sz=14&hl=en&start=35&tbnid=_w5T9r18T2Rd4M:&tbnh=82&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAmazon%2B%2526%2Bwarehouse%2B%2526%26 start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr %3D%26sa%3DN

I'm sure there are plenty more.

And I know that generally when I order any books from Amazon (non-PA books, books from commercial publishers) they show up very quickly - like two days later. Meaning they have the books IN STOCK on a shelf somewhere, waiting for my order.

Susan G.

[army_grunt13]

Even most POD books seem to show up rather quickly from Amazon. Granted, I have never bought a PA book that I am aware of, so I don't know how it works for them. I do know that when I ordered Christopher Harvey's "The Kirya Solution," which is a POD published through iUniverse, it showed up in a relatively short period of time. I think it was about a week and a half, but that's in part because I elected to go with their super-slow free shipping.

[xhouseboy]

My emphasis.

Then using the suggestion, I had my manager, publicity manager, and all the other jobs my wife has, stand by the door and hand each person a bookmark that came through the door. (She use to work at Wal-Mart, so she already had training). Now not everyone came up to the table and asked about the book. But almost everyone of them stopped and read the bookmark. I also watched as people left through the check out, and could see the bookmark sticking out of pockets. We didn't bring enough with us unfortuately, and we ran out with about half an hour left. So my wife went around the store to pick up any that people tossed away. She didn't find any, not even in the trash. Well we wound up selling seven books, and my website has had thirty hits since.


To partners of authors everywhere - eat your heart out. It doesn't get any better than this.

[Sassenach]

I had my manager, publicity manager, and all the other jobs my wife has, stand by the door and hand each person a bookmark that came through the door. (She use to work at Wal-Mart, so she already had training).

Handing out bookmarks--a job that requires that special Wal-Mart training.

[ByGrace]

Listen, I think most of us have been there. A lot of us here were once PA authors and we handed out bookmarkers, too. I wouldn't slam this guy's wife for what she did. I bet they are seniors...since it implies she was a greeter at Walmart. And when with a publisher that does nothing to help, can you really blame them for handing out bookmarkers?

Anywho, there is another thread of interest at the PAMB. A new author who has not gotten a royalty check wants to know how to track book sales. The responses are interesting reading. http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=17233&sid=811dab55b314810ff351ca5200860f96

Is there a way she can track her sales? Calling Ingram is one way. Other than that there is no other way for a PA author to know, right? What about commerical publishers? Can they track sales?

My cousin who is the best selling romance writer in America doesn't have to wait around until a royalty check arrives to know how a book is selling.

I believe telling authors they cannot track their sales is another way for Publish America to keep them in the dark. Royalty checks come in the mail and the author is shocked.

PA's info guy avoids the question.

Shelegh leaves a snotty response to the writer...like she knows and response by saying.
It would seem that the publishing business is like working in education: it is always the poor students, not the good students, who require a great deal of help and take up all your time.

Another writer --- If anyone out there is able to find out how many books have been sold, I'm sure the publisher would really like to hear from them. The publishers and distributers, bookstores, clerks, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Borders in fact, no one knows how many books have been sold!

Another --- For vanities sake, the best way to check on your book is to go to Barnes and Noble and crank in your author name as a search. That will give you a list of authors with similar names and their books.

[LloydBrown]

Publishers have to know how many copies they've sold. Think about it: how do they bill their resellers if they don't know how many they sold them? Imagine this conversation:

Mary: "Hey, Bob, it's Mary from PA. Looks like you owe us for 4 or 10 books or something from last month. Would you mind cutting us a check to catch up?"
Bob: (looking at phone) Did I hear you right? Is it 4 books, or 10? Or something in between? Call me back when you know. (reaches to hang up receiver) Wait a second--did you say PA? You guys are POD. I have to pay you before I get my books. Bite me!

You can use off-the-shelf accounting software for keeping track of sales. It ain't difficult, folks. Any trained monkey capable of scooping ants with a stick can do it.

Not to mention that at the sales volume they're doing per author, they could keep track of individual sales with hash marks on an index card. The author's name will in all caps because it's the largest source of sales.

When Publish America tells you they don't know how many books they've sold, they're lying.

[allenparker]

When Publish America tells you they don't know how many books they've sold, they're lying.

No, they don't.

First, PA doesn't bill anyone. LS does.

Second, Pa does not track that inventory. LS does.

They only know what LS tells them.

As an aside, when you audit their books, you have to have copies of the LS monthly reports to know what is going on. HINT HINT HINT.

The biggest problem becomes one of attaching guilt. Who stole from who?

Did LS report to PA a low number?
Did LS report it right, but PA entered a low number?
Did someone at LS slip out a few copies?
Did someone slip out a few copies to someone?

The whole process is so full of holes, everyone has an equal opportunity to steal.

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, yes and no.

The publishers know how many they printed, they know how many they shipped, they know how many reorders they're getting -- but they don't know precisely how many have sold until the returns come back.

That's why we have such things as reserves against returns.

They aren't entirely blind, though. Bookstore owners talk to sales reps who talk to publishers. They also have Nielsen Bookscan (http://www.bookscan.com/) which tells them, week by week, title by title, how many bar-coded ISBNs have passed over the scanners at cash registers at bookstores all over America.

The people who know, day by day, exactly which books have sold in exactly what numbers are the buyers at the major bookchains. They live and die by sales numbers. And they have access to excellent data.

If I wanted to know how one of my books was doing I'd call my editor on the phone or email her. I'd get an answer right away.

[LloydBrown]

I would submit that fewer than 5% of PA titles are purchased with the returnability option.

I imagine that most books sold by bookstores are sold by special-order, which means they go straight out the door (or, more likely, get drop-shipped). Returning a PA book is more expensive than just throwing it away. I think we can eliminate returnability's effects on PA's sales.

I think the rest of bookstore purchases come directly from the author.

Also, I can't imagine Lightning Source underreporting sales. They bill by sales! Underreporting sales is giving up income, and that doesn't make sense. Also, Google shows no complaints anywhere of LS underreporting sales to publishers.

Someone at LS slipping out a few copies? That's doesn't even make sense.

Jim's statement about how many they printed & shipped should cover it. We're talking about an average of 75 books sold per title, at least half of those sold to the author. Again, you can track where 20 or 30 books are going by hand.

[spike]

Listen, I think most of us have been there. A lot of us here were once PA authors and we handed out bookmarkers, too. I wouldn't slam this guy's wife for what she did. I bet they are seniors...since it implies she was a greeter at Walmart. And when with a publisher that does nothing to help, can you really blame them for handing out bookmarkers?

-

There is a fine line between mocking an author and pointing out the futility of there action.

It's hard to stay on the good side.

[xhouseboy]

Listen, I think most of us have been there. A lot of us here were once PA authors and we handed out bookmarkers, too. I wouldn't slam this guy's wife for what she did. I bet they are seniors...since it implies she was a greeter at Walmart. And when with a publisher that does nothing to help, can you really blame them for handing out bookmarkers?



Not at all.

But if they are seniors, and if that was, say, my mother, I'd be taking my father aside for a right good talking to. It wasn't the handing out of bookmarkers, but that he sounded unmoved that his wife was raking through trash in order that he might sell more books - no one should be reduced to that.

And if he can't see that as a reason as to why he should no longer have dealings with this excuse for a publisher, then there's no hope.

[James D. Macdonald]

And all this just to sell seven books (leaving 23 still in the hall closet?) and get thirty hits to his website (which, I'll wager, lead to zero sales).

PA convinces folks that this is how the game is played, that even the big-name authors started out doing exactly the same things with their first books. Lies, lies, all lies.

[ByGrace]

Would Lighting Source give an author sales figures if the author asked?

I think the only way PA authors can know what their sales are is to call Ingram...at least that is for online and bookstore sales. It's shameful that PA won't devulge to an author how many books have sold through direct orders from them and will only let them know come royalty time. From what my sources tell me their accounting department is a mess.

[LloydBrown]

Would Lighting Source give an author sales figures if the author asked?

Most companies treat their customer information as private. They'll tell PA how many copies they've sold, but they shouldn't (and to my knowledge, haven't) share the information with anyone else.

Even if you have an account with LSI, I think they'd actually be less likely to share PA's information, because then you'd be an active competitor rather than just a curious party.

If you self-publish through LSI, of course they'll give you the information. You'd get everything you currently get from PA, except the nasty attitude and the sales pitches.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Listen, I think most of us have been there. A lot of us here were once PA authors and we handed out bookmarkers, too. I wouldn't slam this guy's wife for what she did. I bet they are seniors...since it implies she was a greeter at Walmart. And when with a publisher that does nothing to help, can you really blame them for handing out bookmarkers?



The thing about bookmarks is that PA suggests you hand them out--or they used to, anyway--as a way of 'helping' their authors to market their book. I also tried to do that, but whenever I saw the cover of my book on a bookmark, I cringed and decided not to even really make the bookmarks.

What saddens me the most about this particular thing, is that PA makes things that are not acceptable by many businesses' standpoints, seem like legitimate ways of winning over people to buying your book. I don't know about Wal-Mart, but I am told that some businesses look down upon people within their own ranks, handing out bookmarks as they walk into their stores.

It bothers me that this company that supposedly is 'Traditional' in nature, is using non-traditional methods of marketing the authors' books. If they did things the way most publishers did things, they would market the books for the authors, and not expect the authors to do all the work themselves.

This is not to say that the authors should not make themselves known. Rather, it is to say that the authors' job is writing, not pushing a book in someone's face and saying, "Will you buy my book?" The main thing is getting your name out there, not harassing others or, worse yet, being humiliated by people who tell you off because of the said harassment.

[James D. Macdonald]

Would Lighting Source give an author sales figures if the author asked?

No, because LSI doesn't have a contract with the author. They have a contract with PA.

The only way to get those reports is from PA during an audit, or from LSI with a subpoena.

[Sheryl Nantus]

I cannot for the life of me imagine any sane person believing that a company doesn't have sales figures at their fingertips. Sure, it may take a few minutes and a few taps on a keyboard, but how could ANY company work without having an accurate accounting of their sales and inventory?

[SC Harrison]

I cannot for the life of me imagine any sane person believing that a company doesn't have sales figures at their fingertips. Sure, it may take a few minutes and a few taps on a keyboard, but how could ANY company work without having an accurate accounting of their sales and inventory?

They may have much easier access to those numbers than they let on, but there's no way they're going to admit to it. Can you imagine the deluge of daily Author Support e-mails asking for sales updates? They would have to hire 3 or 4 more college kids just to keep up with that, much less the normal, "How's my book doing?" type queries.

[Sheryl Nantus]

yes, but it's one thing to say "we'll give you that on a monthly/bi-monthly/every six months" basis, and another to say that they "just don't know"!

my mind is still boggling from the amount of PA authors on the PAMB and elsewhere who accept this as fact. As if any business can't tell at any time what's in the warehouse.

"Hey, Bill! How many ferret masks do we have?"
"I dunno..."
"Okay, order some more!"

[allenparker]

Also, I can't imagine Lightning Source underreporting sales. They bill by sales! Underreporting sales is giving up income, and that doesn't make sense.


No, you are backwards. LS sells 50 books. If they report to PA that they sold 25, collected money for 25 and transferred residual for 25 books, they would be keeping the residual for the other 25 books.


Also, Google shows no complaints anywhere of LS underreporting sales to publishers.

I agree, but it is still one of the possibilities, however remote it might be.



Someone at LS slipping out a few copies? That's doesn't even make sense.


Still, it is one of the possibilities. The trick is not to pick one possibility and claim that is the only good choice. The trick is to list all the possibilities and then weed through them to find the best choice.




Jim's statement about how many they printed & shipped should cover it. We're talking about an average of 75 books sold per title, at least half of those sold to the author. Again, you can track where 20 or 30 books are going by hand.

But the point I was making is that PA does not track the orders and delivery. It is a function of LS.

Now, with this, it is easy to see that discrepencies in totals can come from the above mentioned places. The most likely result of a shortage in any other publisher is an error. In the case with PA, my assumption, until proven otherwise, would be a manipulation of the books. just my opinion.

[PVish]

If the POD I've used can send out a monthly statement telling me how many copies my book has sold (and telling me how much I've accrued in royalties), why can't PA do the same?

Oh, I'll bet it's because Infinity is a reputable POD and PA is a (ahem, cough*cough* "traditional") less-than-reputable publisher.

[TwentyFour]

Lulu has a way to tell you how many they sold and how much royalties you will recieve.

[LloydBrown]

and transferred residual for 25 books, they would be keeping the residual for the other 25 books.

Transferred residual? What is that?

Still, it is one of the possibilities. The trick is not to pick one possibility and claim that is the only good choice. The trick is to list all the possibilities and then weed through them to find the best choice.

It seems to me infinitely more likely that PA is lying to authors, which has been proven, than that LSI is shorting PA, which is an accusation that hasn't even been made.

But the point I was making is that PA does not track the orders and delivery.

PA absolutely has a physical and/or electronic copy of statements given to them by LS. You can't tell me they shut their eyes, plugs their ears, shout "La-la-la-la!" when LSI tells them how much they've sold and shreds their mail unread. That's not plausible.

[James D. Macdonald]

Lulu tells you on a daily basis how many copies have been sold. They post brick-n-mortar stores once a month (a few days after the end of the month).

[SC Harrison]

yes, but it's one thing to say "we'll give you that on a monthly/bi-monthly/every six months" basis, and another to say that they "just don't know"!



Yeah, it sounds pretty bad, and it's probably a lie. I would imagine they receive a monthly e-statement from LS in some sort of spreadsheet, detailing sales per individual book, possibly alpha-numeric by ISBN.

In addition to the actual work involved in giving out real-time sales numbers, the more important reason to not do this is to keep the authors guessing about their success until the second royalty statement shows up. After this (from what I've seen) a large majority realize they've wasted their time and give up. Unfortunately, by this time many have also tried to prime the pump by purchasing one or two lots of fifty books (or more) to get around the availability issue.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

PublishAmerica’s operation reminds me of the age old “Ponzie (I don’t know if I spelled the word Ponzie, right) scheme.” The huge difference between an actual criminal Ponzie scheme and PublishAmerica, is that no money or product(s) exchanges hands. In fact, PublishAmerica skirts the law by stating that “we do not charge a writer a single dime to produce their manuscript into a Trade Paperback book. In addition, we even give the writer a “token $1 advance, just like the major publishing houses do.” Okay, bear with me for a moment.

The average individual concludes that there is no risk involved on their part - due to the fact that the only item they have to relinquish is the manuscript that they have been working on for one to ten years (or longer) to PublishAmerica for seven years. The average individual rationalizes that PublishAmerica must have an incredible amount of faith in their work - to not only publish the book, but - keep the title in their inventory for seven years. Sounds to good to be true - right?

The fact of the matter is, that the average individual has no clue as to the actual operations of reputable publishing houses. There is an enormous amount of “man hours” that go into bringing a book to market. The publishing houses employee’s meet with the acquisitions managers who intern, must “sell” the manuscript to the acquisitions board. If the board sees a glimmer of profitability and or the subject matter has hot news that is contained in the manuscript, and there is an “opening” in their operation for a new project - the manuscript is then “green-lighted” and an offer is made to the writer.

When PublishAmerica receives a submission, they give it the “once over eye test” (to see how much time it will take to convert the submission format into a PDF file, assign it to a college graduate who knows absolutely nothing about the publishing industry, then runs it through spell check, corrects any obvious spelling errors, and then proposes a selection of “stock” photographs (which PublishAmerica owns - and have used repeatedly as front covers of other books) to the anxiously waiting writer. I recall seeing the same red headed woman holding a rose at least six times on six different new releases.

The entire PublishAmerica operation is based on “production”. “How many books can we “green light” today - to be completed in four to six weeks?” If an employee does not make their quota of “green lights” in a particular week, that employee is dismissed due to “lack of production”.

Meanwhile, the writer is so overjoyed that their book is finally in print - they start calling all their friends and relations - “My book has finally been released! Please buy a copy from my publisher at the incredible discount they are offering (usually $5.00) before the official release date.”

The writer soon becomes disillusioned when they have exhausted all their friends and relations - and then tries desperately to have their book shelved in bookstores. When their mind can no longer handle the multitude of “No, we do not carry POD - PublishAmerica books,” - and then finds out that respectable book reviewers will not even give the writer the time of day, the writer finally realizes that they have been dealing with a “reverse vanity publishing house”.

This “teaching moment” completely mentally throws the writer into the bottomless pit of despair. Along with that, all their hopes and dreams of fame, accolades, glory, reviews in newspapers & magazines follow suit. The last crushing blow, is when the writer realizes that their book is locked up, along with others - in the data files of PublishAmerica for SEVEN YEARS!

I am not kidding folks, the scenario I have outlined above occurs every time an aspiring writer signs on the dotted line - with PublishAmerica. PublishAmerica is held blameless because there is plenty of information on the Net, regarding their operation. PublishAmerica also claims to be held blameless due to the fact that in their view, the writer did not fully read and absorb the information that is clearly outlined in the contract that the writer signed. There was no pressure from PublishAmerica perpetrated on the writer - because they did not promise that the book would be a top seller if the writer signed with them. They also fully admit that any book that is produced by PublishAmerica has the same chance of success as any other book that is published by more established publishing houses.

The difference between PublishAmerica and more established publishing houses, is that PublishAmerica completely abandons their writers and they do not place their books in distribution channels, or sends out “New Releases” booklets to major booksellers. PublishAmerica shoulders the responsibilities of marketing, advertisement, and nationwide distribution on to their writers.

This entire PublishAmerica reeks of the business plans of all the Ponzie schemes that have been “outed” by the media. The only thing that shields PublishAmerica from being completely shut down - is the fact that PublishAmerica promised nothing, printed the books for free, and even gave a symbolic one dollar advance to their writers when the book was accepted for publication.

There should be a law that shields the public from being duped and that their book be snagged for seven years. Even if PublishAmerica changes their contract duration to two years - that is still too long. I believe that PublishAmerica’s contracts should only have a duration of six months. After that term has expired and an agreement can not be reached between PublishAmerica & the writer - all rights should revert to the writer. I also believe that royalties should be paid to the writer when a “used” PublishAmerica book is sold through Amazon, Barns & Noble, and other used book selling oulets.

Argile Stox

[ByGrace]

From Lightning Source's website concerning whether a publisher can get sales records https://www.lightningsource.com/index.htm

How does a publisher get paid?
For each book sold, either as an "on demand" title or as an ebook, publishers receive payments as well as detailed sales reports monthly. These reports can be sent electronically or as a hard copy - whichever you prefer. For wholesale book orders, LSI pays the publisher the wholesale price of the book, less the cost of printing the book. The cost of printing is based on a unit cost for each book plus a cost per page.

[spike]

Am I reading this right? http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=17355

hey http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif ,

I am trying to do a proposal(spelling) for national chain to carry my book. PA told me that the did not want them to carry my book and so on. How can I write a propsal. I tried to do one before and it is so hard for me.

Any way I have so many people that want me to succeed they want me to do well....... we are working out deals good deals that will get my name out there http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif and PA do not want a great retailer to carry my book.

Can you help me to write a proposal (sp)
please I googled it and Oh my gosh to much information confused me


thank you in advance

PA says it wants its authors to market their own books, but they balk at an enterprising writing trying to get a retailer to carry it? I guess they really do only want to sell to their own authors.

Uncle Jim, do you ever get tired of being right?

[James D. Macdonald]

Alas, while the person who responded to her means well, the information given isn't what she needs.

[PVish]

On the PAMB (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=17351), some folks lament what a hard sell poetry books are. For instance:
Poetry is not a big seller unless you are a well known poet. If you sell four books a year that is good unless you are buying them and selling them yourself. Thats just the way it is. My poetry book has been out for a year now and I only sold 6 books total.
Some others echo the above sentiment. They're starting to get a clue. However, the, uh, "Pulitzer-nominee" chimes in to tout his success:
I have to disagree with you to a point. Poetry has changed over the years and has fallen out of the public’s eye somewhat because of the different styles that are now confined to certain groups. I have two poetry books published and I can tell you, I have been having a lot of fun. The public loves my books and they are selling very well. I've had many signings and they all were very successful. I have not had to buy any books to sale myself unless I had an event at a school or a speaking engagement. You sound like you are not giving yourselves a chance. I will never say my book is a hard sale because the way I see it, there is something for everyone and we have to find our target audience and let them know we are here. My sales numbers are growing and I am very happy with the way things are going. I will not say what they are here because I don’t want to come off like a cheese ball or something, but I can tell you if you truly believe in your work and you do the promotion and marketing required, you too will see a big difference. I encourage you all to continue to spread the word and things will change for the good. I congratulate you all for your courage and strength to be able to make your words available to the world. Now go out and have fun.

PA must love this guy. He's certainly got the PA dogma/propaganda down pat.

[TwentyFour]

Maybe he was paid by PA, an HB second coming. I wonder if some of those that never get banned, tout PA and their greatness, and lie continually are really just PA employees who recieve a free couple of copies of their book for the cheers.

[spike]

On the PAMB (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=17351), some folks lament what a hard sell poetry books are. For instance:
Quote:
Poetry is not a big seller unless you are a well known poet. If you sell four books a year that is good unless you are buying them and selling them yourself. Thats just the way it is. My poetry book has been out for a year now and I only sold 6 books total.
Some others echo the above sentiment. They're starting to get a clue. However, the, uh, "Pulitzer-nominee" chimes in to tout his success:
Quote:
I have to disagree with you to a point. Poetry has changed over the years and has fallen out of the public’s eye somewhat because of the different styles that are now confined to certain groups. I have two poetry books published and I can tell you, I have been having a lot of fun. The public loves my books and they are selling very well. I've had many signings and they all were very successful. I have not had to buy any books to sale myself unless I had an event at a school or a speaking engagement. You sound like you are not giving yourselves a chance. I will never say my book is a hard sale because the way I see it, there is something for everyone and we have to find our target audience and let them know we are here. My sales numbers are growing and I am very happy with the way things are going. I will not say what they are here because I don’t want to come off like a cheese ball or something, but I can tell you if you truly believe in your work and you do the promotion and marketing required, you too will see a big difference. I encourage you all to continue to spread the word and things will change for the good. I congratulate you all for your courage and strength to be able to make your words available to the world. Now go out and have fun.

PA must love this guy. He's certainly got the PA dogma/propaganda down pat.

He doesn't want to say his numbers because he'll come off as a "cheese ball"? I would love to know those numbers!

[endless rewrite]

He doesn't want to say his numbers because he'll come off as a "cheese ball"? I would love to know those numbers!

The numbers are going to be impressive. First take into account the regular and extensive lists of signings he does, where each and every store buys in a good supply of his poetry books, which always sell well. Sometimes bookstore managers have to bring out extra suplies from the storeroom, sometimes customers are so happy they sing and dance around the store. Then you have to add in all the books his fans buy to carry around on the off chance of seeing him eat in public (was it 10 or 20 the last time?) Then his website sales, plus the ongoing regular sales in the many stores carrying his work. Then his readings and book tours, he also gets asked to give numerous talks to book clubs, confrences and universities where he too sells books. His numbers must be bloody high - off the scale. What a story!

Reading such an inspiring success story will surely spur on other less dynamic and lets be honest, clearly lazy PA authors, to up their game. After all, if this poster can do it with poetry books, what's your excuse?

[Sheryl Nantus]

is it a PA illness that makes most of their posters confuse the word "sale" with "sell"?

I've never seen so many abuses of the words as I have on their boards over and over again...

[CaoPaux]

is it a PA illness that makes most of their posters confuse the word "sale" with "sell"?

I've never seen so many abuses of the words as I have on their boards over and over again...Alas, such stipid errors are part of the zobmification process, leaving little choice but to grow a spline or ball the eyes out. :e2stooges

[spike]

He doesn't want to say his numbers because he'll come off as a "cheese ball"? I would love to know those numbers!

The numbers are going to be impressive. First take into account the regular and extensive lists of signings he does, where each and every store buys in a good supply of his poetry books, which always sell well. Sometimes bookstore managers have to bring out extra suplies from the storeroom, sometimes customers are so happy they sing and dance around the store. Then you have to add in all the books his fans buy to carry around on the off chance of seeing him eat in public (was it 10 or 20 the last time?) Then his website sales, plus the ongoing regular sales in the many stores carrying his work. Then his readings and book tours, he also gets asked to give numerous talks to book clubs, confrences and universities where he too sells books. His numbers must be bloody high - off the scale. What a story!

Reading such an inspiring success story will surely spur on other less dynamic and lets be honest, clearly lazy PA authors, to up their game. After all, if this poster can do it with poetry books, what's your excuse?

Oh...I didn't realize that was resturant-man.

[Joanna_S]

Oh...I didn't realize that was resturant-man.


Yes, I always enjoy his comments so I can learn about his legions and legions of fans following him around like the rock star poet he is.

I always find it amazing that according to the PA boards, it is impossible to sell a single book if you're a new author unless you personally hard sell every single possible buyer. I didn't know this when my first book came out and made the stupid move of going with a publisher that placed the books in bookstores (those empty, useless things when it comes to 'sale'ing books) and who marketed it to strangers. I'll never have the cheese ball numbers of Rock Star Poet who must be selling in the tens or hundreds. Stupid bookstores.

-- Joanna

[army_grunt13]

Yes, I always enjoy his comments so I can learn about his legions and legions of fans following him around like the rock star poet he is.

I always find it amazing that according to the PA boards, it is impossible to sell a single book if you're a new author unless you personally hard sell every single possible buyer. I didn't know this when my first book came out and made the stupid move of going with a publisher that placed the books in bookstores (those empty, useless things when it comes to 'sale'ing books) and who marketed it to strangers. I'll never have the cheese ball numbers of Rock Star Poet who must be selling in the tens or hundreds. Stupid bookstores.

-- Joanna So do I have to do something drastic to achieve this level of greatness? Perhaps grow my hair out, forget to shave or bathe for a while, and then rhyme some lyrics in front of a mic at a local coffee house? Hmm, or how about I try something daring like door-to-door sales while wearing a speedo?? :D

[spike]

Yes, I always enjoy his comments so I can learn about his legions and legions of fans following him around like the rock star poet he is.

I always find it amazing that according to the PA boards, it is impossible to sell a single book if you're a new author unless you personally hard sell every single possible buyer. I didn't know this when my first book came out and made the stupid move of going with a publisher that placed the books in bookstores (those empty, useless things when it comes to 'sale'ing books) and who marketed it to strangers. I'll never have the cheese ball numbers of Rock Star Poet who must be selling in the tens or hundreds. Stupid bookstores.

-- Joanna

I don't think I should call him Mr. Resturant-Man. I think Mr. Cheese-Ball is a better name.

[LloydBrown]

Now sounds like a fine time for this
There is one overriding rule on this board, and that is "Respect your fellow writers."

[Sparhawk]

Maybe Uncle Jim could run a check on Mr. Cheeseball's book. Do we know the name of his great poetry tome?

What does this author consider mass success? A hundered books? Two Hundred perhaps? When the vertical bar is set at six inches, a leap of a foot seems spectacular.

Just my musings

[TwentyFour]

I stand behind my other post, some of those cheerleaders are working for PA.

[TwentyFour]

If someone does NOT buy the copyright when PA says to, will PA drop them?
I was asking this from the idea of PA told many authors to send them copies of the Copyright.

[PVish]

. . . Do we know the name of his great poetry tome?

What does *** consider mass success? A hundered books? Two Hundred perhaps? When the vertical bar is set at six inches, a leap of a foot seems spectacular.

How about ISBNs? He has two PA books, both published in 2005:
ISBN: 1413792545 ($19.95 for 135 pages) has an Amazon ranking of #2,029,396. The other one, ISBN: 1413761151 ($12.95 for 60 pages) has an Amazon ranking of #1,954,338.

Well, he's sold some, but these rankings don't indicate a runaway best-seller.

[spike]

Now sounds like a fine time for this
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaglatzer
There is one overriding rule on this board, and that is "Respect your fellow writers."

__________________





I'm sorry if it sounded like I was name calling. But that particular author referred to himself as a cheese ball.

[endless rewrite]

Most agents receive 15% of all you make.That is the lowest price. Their job is to sell your book to a publisher. The publisher takes the chance on you, by what the agent says, and guesses how many books will sell and he pays advance royalties on that number. He pays the agent. You will not get any more royalties until all the money you have received is used up. When you begin to make more royalties the agent gets 15% of everything you make. Even if you have an agent and a publishe you still have to market your book. Bob Woodward is on TV advertising his book all of the time. President Clinton and Hillary, each spent a year traveling around advertising their books. The only thing the agent does is sell your book to the publisher.and get you higher royalties. Once you sign the contract with the agent, he is in control of your book. Wonder if he takes a long time selling the boook? PAMB

Not so much the blind leading the blind as the deaf, dumb and blind.

I know it shouldn't but I feel my sympathy oozing away when I see crap like this spouted as fact and going unchallanged.

[James D. Macdonald]

Even if you have an agent and a publishe you still have to market your book. Bob Woodward is on TV advertising his book all of the time. President Clinton and Hillary, each spent a year traveling around advertising their books.

Yeah, right, like no one would even have heard of them if they didn't.

The game is played differently when you're at the front of the store. J. K. Rowling didn't have to start to do booksignings and all the rest until after she was a mega-bestseller.

[PVish]

Even if you have an agent and a publishe you still have to market your book. Bob Woodward is on TV advertising his book all of the time. President Clinton and Hillary, each spent a year traveling around advertising their books.

So, does Hillary put the flyers under the windshields in mall parking lots while Bill stands at the door and hands out book marks, or is it the other way around?

[Christine N.]

Wow, that really is sad. You'd think, with all the agents that blog, these people would be able to find out that what an agent can get for you, and they earn their 15%, and that the advance many times equals or is close to what you'd get in royalties anyway. And if your book doesn't 'earn out' you get to KEEP the money.

Wow again. This internet thing is full of useful info, isn't it?

[Nexusman]

Besides, when dealing with PA, what kind of agent wants 15 cents?

-Nick

[ByGrace]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=3184&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Someone asks where are all the 'old timers' and that the authors in the early days of PA could share a lot of things with them.

Where are they? Most of them are here, on Mindsight, and other message boards talking about their PA experience. Most of them have moved on, never to publish another book with PA again, and have gone on to get real publishers. Many have gotten out of their contracts.

The reason you do not hear from us on the PA message board is a lot of us were banned.

[Saundra Julian]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=3184&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Someone asks where are all the 'old timers' and that the authors in the early days of PA could share a lot of things with them.

Where are they? Most of them are here, on Mindsight, and other message boards talking about their PA experience. Most of them have moved on, never to publish another book with PA again, and have gone on to get real publishers. Many have gotten out of their contracts.

The reason you do not hear from us on the PA message board is a lot of us were banned.

...and have happily gotten our rights returned to us!

[SeanDSchaffer]

Wow, that really is sad. You'd think, with all the agents that blog, these people would be able to find out that what an agent can get for you, and they earn their 15%, and that the advance many times equals or is close to what you'd get in royalties anyway. And if your book doesn't 'earn out' you get to KEEP the money.

Wow again. This internet thing is full of useful info, isn't it?


Sure it has lots of useful info. But you've got to remember how PA tells its potential authors not to look up other sites, partially because of the Great Publishing Conspiracy that is out to misinform authors and keep them from getting published.

PA is especially fond of talking about 'watchdog sites' in such a manner.

[Nexusman]

Sure it has lots of useful info. But you've got to remember how PA tells its potential authors not to look up other sites, partially because of the Great Publishing Conspiracy that is out to misinform authors and keep them from getting published.


Exactly. Part of PA's existence depends on them steering their clients away from every resource that could help them. Old news, but still relevant: http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm#agent

-Nick

[Sassenach]

More great advice from Warrior Tom:

Do not be too upset when you will discover that many bookstores will not even carry your book. Bookstores are really a waste of time and effort to have your book placed on their shelves simply because the only people making the money is the bookstore and the publisher and many times it cost you more than what it is worth.
Your book is already in their store catalogue simply because it is in their online bookstore. So why duplicate the effort?

[Patricia]

???? Absolutely boggles my mind. How ANYONE can come to those conclusions is unbelievable.

[AnneMarble]

I'm usually patient about aspiring writers, but sheesh! If anyone believes that, they deserve to be shaken. Hard. And I'm respecting my fellow writer while saying that, really. :D

Come on, writers! Just. Do. Your. Research. Aaargh! And keep in mind that something that works for one guy on the PA board (or any other, for that matter) might not work for you at all. Sure, maybe he was able to tell books outside of bookstores, but he was selling to a very specialized niche audience. Most writers want to reach wider audiences. And with PA (and similar publishers), you won't reach those audiences.

Even if you had the means to reach them, most people wouldn't want to spend those high prices for the books. I mean, would you? When you go into a store looking for a novel, do you buy the $7.99 mass market paperback or $14 trade paperback by someone published by a big house, someone you might even know about, somneone whose book gets edited and has a great cover? Or do you buy a $20 trade paperback by a complete unknown with a cover that was made from clipart and bad editing?

[zizban]

More great advice from Warrior Tom:

Do not be too upset when you will discover that many bookstores will not even carry your book. Bookstores are really a waste of time and effort to have your book placed on their shelves simply because the only people making the money is the bookstore and the publisher and many times it cost you more than what it is worth.
Your book is already in their store catalogue simply because it is in their online bookstore. So why duplicate the effort?


I want whatever he's smoking.

[TwentyFour]

I've been chatting with a PA author for some time...she asked me why other authors will not buy her novel. I told her that it was because they would not support or pay PA anything. It bothered her, but it was only the truth. She said it would be supporting the author, why not? I said because PA is known to "NOT" pay for the books an author sells.

[janetbellinger]

I would buy a PA book nonethe less if I happened to come across it and it compelled me to read it. I wouldn't buy any book though, just because an author I know wrote it. In return, when I succeed in getting published, I only want people to buy my book who truly feel drawn to it. I wouldn't want anybody buying it just because they thou ght they should. Been there, done that with P.A.

bquote=SouthernWriter1978]I've been chatting with a PA author for some time...she asked me why other authors will not buy her novel. I told her that it was because they would not support or pay PA anything. It bothered her, but it was only the truth. She said it would be supporting the author, why not? I said because PA is known to "NOT" pay for the books an author sells.[/quote]

[Sheryl Nantus]

considering you'll never see one in a bookstore, how could you even have the choice?

besides all those glowing five star reviews put down by other PA authors on Amazon, that is...

*shakes head*

[janetbellinger]

I was speaking from emotion rather than intellect. I just meamt to share my feelings about books, which is that I will read what appeals to me, regardless of who published it I believe everybvody on these forums knows well enough Publish America books are not available in bookstores and hopefully everybody here knows me well enough to realize I wouldn't order a Publish America book based on what the reveiws said. I know too well who writes those reviews. I've written them myself in another lifetime.

[army_grunt13]

I'm not against buying a book simply because it's a PA book. By the same token, I agree with all on here who said they wouldn't want anybody to buy their book just because somebody's friends with them. If people choose to buy my books, I want it to be because they want to actually read them, not because they feel bad or think that I "need the sales." I have a day job (as much as I wish I didn't), so I'm not exactly one of those "starving artists." If someone thinks my writing is atrocious, they should tell me, and believe me, plenty have. I take note of their advice and apply it where applicable, unless of course they just hate the entire concept of my work, in which case I wonder why they even read it in the first place?

IF my books were to ever become the next big thing, which I'm not counting on since I'm self-publishing, then yes I would be ecstatic and quit my day job in a heartbeat. At the same time, I don't need a bunch of glowing reports from other so-called "unpublishables" telling me how great I am and that it's a corporate conspiracy or something. If people don't read my book, it's either because I wasn't able to market it well enough, or it really is dreadful! I posted an excerpt from my first book on the "share your work" page, just to see. . .

[spike]

I hit fertile ground in a recent Soroptimist Club meeting. Kiwanis, Rotary, etc. have international connections. If you join, you can access their membership lists.

That is just a great idea. [/ sarcasim]

Join groups to get to their membership list. Are you sure this isn't Amway?