permission to quote

Yes, you need permission before you submit. Contact the poetry pub and let them know what's going on. They should be able to help you one way or the other.

There's a good chance that you will be asked to remove the quotations.

And yes, you write for permissions only once you know when, where, how, and how many copies will be published, because that determines the licensing fee, if there is one, and sometimes, whether or not you may have permission at all.

WildScribe said:

Yes, you need permission before you submit.

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No, you don't. You don't seek permission until you have a contract and the publisher wants to seek permission rather than cut the material. Why pay for licensing only to find out the publisher doesn't want to keep it anyway?

Cuz, yanno, this:

Medievalist said:

There's a good chance that you will be asked to remove the quotations.

And yes, you write for permissions only once you know when, where, how, and how many copies will be published, because that determines the licensing fee, if there is one, and sometimes, whether or not you may have permission at all.

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Terie said:

No, you don't. You don't seek permission until you have a contract and the publisher wants to seek permission rather than cut the material. Why pay for licensing only to find out the publisher doesn't want to keep it anyway?

Cuz, yanno, this:

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Huh, okay. I've quoted books and things in magazines, and the magazines wouldn't even touch it unless I had permissions already acquired. Perhaps poetry works differently. Or magazines. Or... oh, I don't know. Thanks for the correction.

squeaky pram said:

... the poetry quoted is from the 19th century...

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If the poetry is that old and if isn't a translation, it's well out of copyright. If it's a translation, that translation might still be in copyright, though.

squeaky pram said:

the poetry quoted is from the 19th century

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If it's a poem originally published in the USA and was first published in the 19th century, it should be in the public domain, in which case permissions are not needed.

http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm

But make sure it was indeed published way back then.

When in doubt, ask a lawyer. Editors are not qualified to advise you on legal matters. However, they usually have access to lawyers. Have them ask their lawyers.

squeaky pram said:

(also, woops and darn it. I've already sent the story to a couple of journals. the poetry quoted is from the 19th century and it just didn't occur to me that it would be a problem until today when I decided I better look into it to be sure. Well, better late than never? I just hope I don't piss those editors off.)

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19th century poems are long past copyright. Quotes, as long as they are attributed, do not normally need permission.

Jeff

squeaky pram said:

Thanks everyone for the quick advice!

As to public domain, yeah, I'd assumed that, too, given the age of the work. Sadly, I seem to have chosen a 19th-Century poet for whom permission is needed. What are the odds!

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If the poem was written over a hundred years ago then you shouldn't need permission to quote it. Why is permission still needed? Can you explain?

Permission could be needed if the poem was not published until 1923 or later irrespective of when it was written.

Terie said:

If the poetry is that old and if isn't a translation, it's well out of copyright. If it's a translation, that translation might still be in copyright, though.

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The edition of the poem might not be out of copyright.

What is the poem?

WeaselFire said:

19th century poems are long past copyright. Quotes, as long as they are attributed, do not normally need permission.

Jeff

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This is false.

You need permission. You may not have to pay, but you do need permission, unless the text or image or audio is in fact clearly public domain.

squeaky pram said:

ETA: Medievalist: I just now saw your response. So do you think it would be a waste of time to contact the poetry publishers now? Do I just sit tight and wait?

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Yep. But in the meantime, you can perform due diligence.

Is the text really under copyright? Or is it just an edition of the text?

This can get tricky, and baffles people, but if an editor creates a new edition of Hamlet, not only are the notes and introduction under copyright, so is the text.

Because the act of comparing versions of the play, and adding modern punctuation and spelling, and deciding which version to follow are not seen as derivative. The play is a new thing, and has a new copyright.

But.

If I take the Bad Quarto version of Hamlet from a single printed copy, and don't add anything to it, it's public domain.

If I take the Bad Quarto version of Hamlet from a single printed copy and add an introduction, glosses, and notes, the new material is under copyright.

You may simply have to find a public domain version of the text, if there is one.

squeaky pram said:

Thanks everyone for the quick advice!

As to public domain, yeah, I'd assumed that, too, given the age of the work. Sadly, I seem to have chosen a 19th-Century poet for whom permission is needed. What are the odds!

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The odds are zero. Anything published in the 19th century is out of copyright.

A book containing this poetry may be under copyright protection, but the poem itself is not.

1923 is the cutoff date.

Medievalist said:

This is false.

You need permission. You may not have to pay, but you do need permission, unless the text or image or audio is in fact clearly public domain.

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Quotes, with attribution, generally fall under the fair use doctrine. Even without attribution they can be argued as fair use, though you may not win.

Jeff

[EDIT] Wait, are we talking about quoting the entire poem? That wouldn't be fair use, I was thinking about quoting a line, what is considered an insubstantial amount. Though in this case, copyright isn't an issue due to the date of the poem. [/EDIT]

WeaselFire said:

Quotes, with attribution, generally fall under the fair use doctrine. Even without attribution they can be argued as fair use, though you may not win.

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That is not what "fair use" is. Suggest you look it up.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

WeaselFire said:

Quotes, with attribution, generally fall under the fair use doctrine. Even without attribution they can be argued as fair use, though you may not win.

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Fair use is a safe harbor granted by the courts. You'd still have to pay court fees and attorneys even if you win.

Moreover, the first thing the rights holder will use as proof that the author and publisher did not exercise due diligence is point out that they did not seek permission from the rights holder, even if they do offer attribution.

That's why you'll see "used by permission" statements. Because they did in fact ask for permission, which may have been granted at no cost.

To reiterate what others have said, if you're using a quote in a book then you must seek permission to use that quote no matter how small or insubstantial it seems to you.

I'm assuming the same goes for lyrics.

You definitely need permission to quote lyrics in a book, even if you're using only a line or two. And it's highly likely you'll have to pay a steep fee if you quote lyrics from a well-known song. I've seen such fees run to thousands of pounds.

squeaky pram said:

Thanks everyone for the quick advice!

As to public domain, yeah, I'd assumed that, too, given the age of the work. Sadly, I seem to have chosen a 19th-Century poet for whom permission is needed. What are the odds!

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Just curious-where did you find information that you need permission to use a poem which is in the public domain? What poem is it?
It seems to me that there could be a more current version of the poem where you might need permission.