Further Confusion

Maryn · Jan 11, 2006

I've long known that farther applies to distance and further to degree, but what's correct in my WIP feels wrong. (So maybe it's not correct, eh?) Which is right when you're using analogy?

I've got a student working a complex mathematical problem. He's made an error early in the process and carried it to its illogical conclusion, which is how he knows there's a mistake. It would be like a demical point mistake in balancing your checkbook giving you ridiculous wealth--you know it's wrong solely from the final answer.

So does he backtrack--a distance word--farther and farther, or further and further, until he finds his mistake?

Maryn, adept at confusing herself but unwilling to do the simple thing and just reword it

DaveKuzminski · Jan 11, 2006

I'd use further.

IggytheDestroyer · Jan 11, 2006

DaveKuzminski said:
I'd use further.

I'd go one step further and not use farther.

katiemac · Jan 11, 2006

I prefer "further."

Maryn, adept at confusing herself but unwilling to do the simple thing and just reword it

The suggestion to reword was going to be mind. But I'll push a little further: if it's written right, but still sounds wrong, maybe you should give it a shot?

By reading it too much in this thread, "further" no longer seems like a real word.

Aconite · Jan 11, 2006

Maryn, I'd say he "goes farther and farther back," so he "backtracks farther and farther." But I agree that it sounds wrong.

loquax · Jan 11, 2006

If he's looking through something, but not moving, then its "further". If it were a giant book, and he had to run across the words to read them, then it would be "farther".

That would also be awesome.

Aconite · Jan 11, 2006

loquax said:
If he's looking through something, but not moving, then its "further".

But, as Maryn pointed out, it's an analogy: he's "backtracking," which is motion/distance.

loquax · Jan 11, 2006

From Dictionary.com:
back·track (b

k

tr

k

)
intr.v. back·tracked, back·track·ing, back·tracks

To go back over the course by which one has come.
To return to a previous point or subject, as in a lecture or discussion.
To reverse one's position or policy.

Aconite · Jan 11, 2006

Yes, loquax: It's an analogy.

Flapdoodle · Jan 11, 2006

Maryn said:
I've long known that farther applies to distance and further to degree, but what's correct in my WIP feels wrong. (So maybe it's not correct, eh?) Which is right when you're using analogy?

I've got a student working a complex mathematical problem. He's made an error early in the process and carried it to its illogical conclusion, which is how he knows there's a mistake. It would be like a demical point mistake in balancing your checkbook giving you ridiculous wealth--you know it's wrong solely from the final answer.

So does he backtrack--a distance word--farther and farther, or further and further, until he finds his mistake?

Maryn, adept at confusing herself but unwilling to do the simple thing and just reword it

Further.

Use Farther if you are talking about physical distance.
Use Further if you are talking about some sort of "advance" that isn't a physical distance.

loquax · Jan 11, 2006

No, Aconite: it's a definition. You can move through a story. But that doesn't mean you're using the word "move" as an analogy. It's the non-physical definition.

reph · Jan 11, 2006

From the OED: "In standard Eng. the form 'farther' is usually preferred where the word is intended to be the comparative of 'far,' while 'further' is used where the notion of 'far' is altogether absent; there is a large intermediate class of instances in which the choice between the two forms is arbitrary."

From me, though the OED agrees: "Far" isn't limited to spatial distance. It's commonly used for time, "Books take us far back in history," and nonliteral distances, "The work is far from finished," "Her guess was not far from the truth."

"Farther" sounds better to me for the math example. The student looked far up the page (literal distance), or he traced his reasoning far back to earlier steps (figurative distance).

Aconite · Jan 11, 2006

loquax said:
No, Aconite: it's a definition. You can move through a story. But that doesn't mean you're using the word "move" as an analogy. It's the non-physical definition.

"Backtrack" itself is an analogy. The definition is based on the analogy. And we're not talking about physical distance, necessarily, but distance as opposed to degree.

ETA: Metaphor. For "analogy," above, read "metaphor." Argh.

zeprosnepsid · Jan 11, 2006

I'll throw my 2 cents in and says that 'further' just sounds right. But I have nothing to back that up.

No wait, I take it back, I will. Dictionary.com says this:

fur·ther P Pronunciation Key (fûrthr)
adj. A comparative of far.
More distant in degree, time, or space

and he is as much 'backtracking' in time (although, not literally) than distance. He's going back to where he was a few minutes ago, not going back a few feet.

CaoPaux · Jan 11, 2006

Hmm. With "backtrack" I'd probably use farther for the figurative emphasis. Then again, I'd probably reword it to avoid the problem, like...um...uh...he retraced his steps [a pun, w00t!], unraveling the tangled formulae until he found a speck in the paper he'd mistaken for a decimal point.

Cabinscribe · Jan 11, 2006

How about saying that "he backtracked until he found his mistake", or, "he kept backtracking until he found his mistake"?

Then you can forget the further/farther dilemma for now!

AncientEagle · Jan 11, 2006

To be sure and not offend anyone, I recommend you place a foot firmly in each camp and say he backtracks farther and further. And then, to add emphasis, reverse the position and repeat: Further and farther.

pdr · Jan 11, 2006

Farther

Definitely farther, for the same reason we say: 'It's far from the truth."

But I like AncientEagle's suggestion.

Albedo of Zero · Jan 11, 2006

pdr said:
Definitely farther, for the same reason we say: 'It's far from the truth."

But I like AncientEagle's suggestion.

We only say "it's far from the truth," because saying "it's fur from the truth" gives the saying an entirely different meaning.

I like further in that context, Maryn...where its more abstract than it is physical.

Flapdoodle · Jan 12, 2006

pdr said:
Definitely farther, for the same reason we say: 'It's far from the truth."

But I like AncientEagle's suggestion.

You're more likely to be further from the truth, though.

Maryn · Jan 12, 2006

Who knew I'd get this level of response?

Just to muddy the waters, I'm writing the student in first person (since he was flat and dead in third), so getting his voice right matters as much or more than getting grammar right...

The character's a 'science guy' who probably never once thought about when to use further and when to use farther.

We havin' fun yet?

Maryn, thanking everyone for a non-contentious debate for once

cyberwraith · Jan 12, 2006

loquax said:
If it were a giant book, and he had to run across the words to read them, then it would be "farther".

That would also be awesome.

Yes THAT WOULD be SO awesome!

Further.

Elwyn · Jan 12, 2006

Hi Marn

I'd use further because: http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=further

Further Confusion

Maryn

Not Any More

DaveKuzminski

Preditors & Editors

IggytheDestroyer

katiemac

Five by Five

Aconite

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

Aconite

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

Aconite

Flapdoodle

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

reph

Fig of authority

Aconite

zeprosnepsid

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless

Cabinscribe

Often ignored by muses

AncientEagle

Old kid, no need to be gentle.

pdr

Albedo of Zero

That didn't hurt

Flapdoodle

Maryn

Not Any More

cyberwraith

Mumbling darkly

Elwyn