How Much Do Publishers Edit?

eablevins

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I've gotten the impression out and about online that modern publishers don't do much in the way of editing/revision anymore. How true is this? (With the understanding that it's probably different for different publishers.)

Example:

One of my favorite writers as a kid recently published a few new books, and the quality was extremely downgraded from her older stuff. My thought is that perhaps her publisher's editing and revision process isn't as thorough as it used to be. Which would make sense, given the economy.
 

Deleted member 42

Trade / commercial publishers edit. Editors are amazing in terms of improving the overall structure of the book, as well as the copyeditor who deals with sentence level editing, and finally the proof reader.

Generally, a commercial publisher will have at least three levels of editing.
 

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Example:

One of my favorite writers as a kid recently published a few new books, and the quality was extremely downgraded from her older stuff. My thought is that perhaps her publisher's editing and revision process isn't as thorough as it used to be. Which would make sense, given the economy.

Some authors, after establishing a fanbase, become... um, less receptive to edits.
 

Allen R. Brady

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I don't know whether the proofreading process is getting sloppier in publishing these days, or whether I'm just getting better at spotting typos. I read a major new release by one of the biggest authors in fiction just a few months ago, and was surprised to find fairly frequent errors--maybe one noticeable typo every ten to fifteen pages.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Some authors, after establishing a fanbase, become... um, less receptive to edits.

Can you name a couple of these? I keep hearing they're out there, but in thirty-two years, I still haven't actually met one.

What usually happens is the opposite. When the writer gets famous enough, some editors stop doing the job as well. Stephen King even made one publisher give him a different editor because the one he had wasn't doing the job.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I've gotten the impression out and about online that modern publishers don't do much in the way of editing/revision anymore. How true is this? (With the understanding that it's probably different for different publishers.)

Example:

One of my favorite writers as a kid recently published a few new books, and the quality was extremely downgraded from her older stuff. My thought is that perhaps her publisher's editing and revision process isn't as thorough as it used to be. Which would make sense, given the economy.

You can read this all over hell and gone. I suspect most of it was started by self-publishers trying to lure clients away from the commercial publishers, and by book doctors trying to transfer money from writer's pockets into their own.

Editors edit as much as the book needs editing. It's just this simple.

Which is NOT an excuse to turn in a sloppy, error-filled manuscript.
 

Little Ming

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Can you name a couple of these?

Off the top of my head, Anne Rice.

http://www.annerice.com/sh_MessagesBeach2.htm

www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/books/11rice.html

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81276

"If and when I can't write a book on my own, you'll know about it. And no, I have no intention of allowing any editor ever to distort, cut, or otherwise mutilate sentences that I have edited and re-edited, and organized and polished myself. I fought a great battle to achieve a status where I did not have to put up with editors making demands on me, and I will never relinquish that status."
 

Deleted member 42

Can you name a couple of these? I keep hearing they're out there, but in thirty-two years, I still haven't actually met one.

Laurell K. Hamilton. Incubus Dreams. Here's a snippet of a review I posted:

She misspells her own character's names. Now, I've noticed that Hamilton's books are poorly copy edited in general. I expect things like "alright" for "all right," and "midmorning" for "mid morning," but in this book we have, more than once, diety for deity, ardeur spelled in a number of interesting ways, Damian as Domain, and Damain, sauve for suave, put for but (a dyslexic marker, which makes me wonder), libility for liability, particliar for particular, hoptial for hospital, retch and wretch are confused (and, like discreet and discrete, not for the first time in one of Hamilton's books), and a cornucopia of continuity errors, and contradictions of facts presented in previous books. The grammar is, well, let's just say I'm used to reading the work of under prepared freshmen, and even they aren't this bad. Even the grammar and style checker in Microsoft Word will catch its/it's and you're/your, and would of/would have errors. Was there an editor involved? I'm talking about comma splices, and not just in dialogue, commas sprinkled as if they were a seasoning, apostrophes in plurals, and not in possessives, sentence fragments, and Hamilton's long-term problems with irregular verbs, especially lay and lie. We'll skip the creative use of French and German.

The subsequent books aren't really any better in terms of basic problems with spelling and grammar.
 
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absitinvidia

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I keep hearing they're out there, but in thirty-two years, I still haven't actually met one.

They're definitely out there. I'm not going to name names, but as a copy editor, I've been given some pretty ridiculous from-the-author restrictions regarding what I can and cannot do. Were I independently wealthy, I might have sent a couple of them back with a note saying that if I can't do my job properly, I don't want to do it at all.
 

Mustafa

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Interesting. I'm not sure what I read, but something gave me the wrong impression. Wonder what that was? *tilts head*

Ah well, good to know I was wrong.

Likely you read that on a site dedicated to the promotion of self publishing. It's entirely false. Publishers have editors and those editors are amazing, top notch and hard working. I have nothing against self publishing, but I have a real problem when people spout off about things they don't understand. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the following:

"Oh, I went the self publishing route, because the major publishers today don't edit and don't promote their titles anyway."

That single sentence translates into a woeful level of ignorance about this industry. When I hear it now, I just shake my head and move on. It's not worth my time trying to educate people who say things like that.
 

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Some authors, after establishing a fanbase, become... um, less receptive to edits.

Yep. I may be wrong, since I've not been edited for publication, but I understand the author gets the final say as to whether something stays or goes. If the author STETs it, it stays, even if it's wrong and then the editors seem to get hammered with the bad editing cudgel when it was the author's final say.

I would suppose too many instances like that and the author stands a chance of finding themselves without a publisher unless they are making money hand-over-fist for the publisher. I guess it would get a little dicier after that.

As I stated, I could be completely wrong in this and am willing to be disabused of my ill-considered notions. :D

You can read this all over hell and gone. I suspect most of it was started by self-publishers trying to lure clients away from the commercial publishers, and by book doctors trying to transfer money from writer's pockets into their own.

Editors edit as much as the book needs editing. It's just this simple.

Which is NOT an excuse to turn in a sloppy, error-filled manuscript.

And even though I said what I did above, I was thinking this, James said it.

Perhaps a little of both, these days.

When I hear it now, I just shake my head and move on. It's not worth my time trying to educate people who say things like that.

Honestly, I think far less-kind things. I also keep them to myself. :evil:
 

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In all my editing experience (epublisher) I can put a strong front up as to something staying or going but I don't have final say. It's in my contract. Lucky for me I've never had anything major. Just a typo here and their. Recently my editor wanted me to take out a rape scene because she felt it was titlating. I disagreed, but after submission I changed it because I felt that character needed his own story and I didn't want that on his record in a romance. My editor would have final say, but we agreed.

I've been told by them that if I don't agree we can discuss it.
 

shaldna

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Anne Rice is an example of a writer who was very public about how she would never let anyone else touch or change a single word of her work.

Sometimes what you'll find is a writer who makes it big - big enough that they could write their next novel in crayon and it would still be published with as little done to it as possible - which is why you end up with crap like Breaking Dawn.

Good editors are worth their weight in gold.
 

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Laurell K. Hamilton. Incubus Dreams. Here's a snippet of a review I posted:

She misspells her own character's names. Now, I've noticed that Hamilton's books are poorly copy edited in general. I expect things like "alright" for "all right," and "midmorning" for "mid morning," but in this book we have, more than once, diety for deity, ardeur spelled in a number of interesting ways, Damian as Domain, and Damain, sauve for suave, put for but (a dyslexic marker, which makes me wonder), libility for liability, particliar for particular, hoptial for hospital, retch and wretch are confused (and, like discreet and discrete, not for the first time in one of Hamilton's books), and a cornucopia of continuity errors, and contradictions of facts presented in previous books. The grammar is, well, let's just say I'm used to reading the work of under prepared freshmen, and even they aren't this bad. Even the grammar and style checker in Microsoft Word will catch its/it's and you're/your, and would of/would have errors. Was there an editor involved? I'm talking about comma splices, and not just in dialogue, commas sprinkled as if they were a seasoning, apostrophes in plurals, and not in possessives, sentence fragments, and Hamilton's long-term problems with irregular verbs, especially lay and lie. We'll skip the creative use of French and German.

The subsequent books aren't really any better in terms of basic problems with spelling and grammar.

And how do you know any of this is because of Hamilton? I've seen copy editors ruin more books, and make more mistakes, than the writer ever could.

The problem is often that the writer knows very little abut grammar and punctuation, and the copy editor doesn't care.

I've read only a couple of Hamilton's books, but neither was poorly edited.

Either way, I'd be willing to be that Hamilton does not tell copy editors to ignore poor grammar and poor spelling.
 

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And how do you know any of this is because of Hamilton? I've seen copy editors ruin more books, and make more mistakes, than the writer ever could.

The problem is often that the writer knows very little abut grammar and punctuation, and the copy editor doesn't care.

As a full time freelance and copy editor, I find your remarks more than a little offensive.

I'd ask you to back up your insulting assertions with hard, cold facts but, as usual, you'd just ignore the request.

Tell me, James, when was the last time you actually had something published?
 

Jamesaritchie

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Anne Rice is an example of a writer who was very public about how she would never let anyone else touch or change a single word of her work.

Sometimes what you'll find is a writer who makes it big - big enough that they could write their next novel in crayon and it would still be published with as little done to it as possible - which is why you end up with crap like Breaking Dawn.

Good editors are worth their weight in gold.

Anne Rice never let anyone touch her writing, even when she wrote her first story, so she isn't an example of a writer who made it big, and then started telling editors to leave her alone. And none of her books are poorly edited.

And, no, you end up with books like Breaking Dawn because they're good books that most readers love.

I really don't where this notion comes from that when a writer makes it big that writers stop wanting his or her books to be as professional as possible. It simply isn't true, and doesn't even make sense on the surface.

It may be true that some writers could get published if they turned in a manuscript written in crayon, but these writers also know doing so would mean losing readers. The writer almost always takes the blame, not editors, and anyone who thinks there are no bad editors and copy editors out there just hasn't been published enough.

The truth is often that when a writer gets big enough, editors stop doing their job because they know the book is going to sell, even if they don't touch it. I've heard a dozen writers complain about editors not doing the job they used to do, which is precisely why King made the publisher give him a new editor.

Most published writers, no matter how big, take pride in their work, and want it to go out in the best possible shape. Which often means telling a copy editor to leave things the hell alone.

A good editor is a wonderful thing, and so is a good copy editor, but I've seen both completely destroy novels. And even then, the writer gets Te blame because too many new writers have never been through the editorial process, and think all editor and copy editors know what they're doing. It just isn't true.

There are many, many instances when writers should tell editors to STET the whole damned thing.

In the end, it's the writer's book, and editors and copy editor do screw up routinely. When an editor or copy editor is good, and gets it right, I've never heard a writer complain, but any writer who automatically lets editors and copy editors do whatever they want to a book is almost certainly going to be disappointed somewhere down the line.

When a book by a big name writer is published with poor editing, the writer always gets the blame. Readers point and say, "Look at that. He gets a big name, and now he won't let editors do their jobs."

The truth is more often that the editors simply aren't doing their jobs, even when the writer wishes they would.

Though it's also true that when editors and copy editors do enough damage over the years, thee is a strong temptation to tell them to leave everything they way it is. Though this almost always means story and content. When a book comes out with serious errors in grammar and spelling, it's almost always the editor's fault, not the writer's.

I've never, ever met a writer who told editors to leave a misspelled word in the manuscript.
 

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Anne Rice never let anyone touch her writing, even when she wrote her first story, so she isn't an example of a writer who made it big, and then started telling editors to leave her alone. And none of her books are poorly edited.

And, no, you end up with books like Breaking Dawn because they're good books that most readers love.

I really don't where this notion comes from that when a writer makes it big that writers stop wanting his or her books to be as professional as possible. It simply isn't true, and doesn't even make sense on the surface.

It may be true that some writers could get published if they turned in a manuscript written in crayon, but these writers also know doing so would mean losing readers. The writer almost always takes the blame, not editors, and anyone who thinks there are no bad editors and copy editors out there just hasn't been published enough.

The truth is often that when a writer gets big enough, editors stop doing their job because they know the book is going to sell, even if they don't touch it. I've heard a dozen writers complain about editors not doing the job they used to do, which is precisely why King made the publisher give him a new editor.

Most published writers, no matter how big, take pride in their work, and want it to go out in the best possible shape. Which often means telling a copy editor to leave things the hell alone.

A good editor is a wonderful thing, and so is a good copy editor, but I've seen both completely destroy novels. And even then, the writer gets Te blame because too many new writers have never been through the editorial process, and think all editor and copy editors know what they're doing. It just isn't true.

There are many, many instances when writers should tell editors to STET the whole damned thing.

In the end, it's the writer's book, and editors and copy editor do screw up routinely. When an editor or copy editor is good, and gets it right, I've never heard a writer complain, but any writer who automatically lets editors and copy editors do whatever they want to a book is almost certainly going to be disappointed somewhere down the line.

When a book by a big name writer is published with poor editing, the writer always gets the blame. Readers point and say, "Look at that. He gets a big name, and now he won't let editors do their jobs."

The truth is more often that the editors simply aren't doing their jobs, even when the writer wishes they would.

Though it's also true that when editors and copy editors do enough damage over the years, thee is a strong temptation to tell them to leave everything they way it is. Though this almost always means story and content. When a book comes out with serious errors in grammar and spelling, it's almost always the editor's fault, not the writer's.

I've never, ever met a writer who told editors to leave a misspelled word in the manuscript.

Seriously James, stop it.
You're damning an entire profession with your bloody minded ignorance.
 

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And once again I wonder if I live in a different world to Mr Ritchie.

James, you make a couple of interesting points, but much of that post was just bizarre.
 

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Which publisher on which day? In general, publishers edit as much as necessary.

I've had all kinds of copyeditors, one of whom I never want to see again, ever, one who I'd have a sex-change operation just so I could bear her children, and a lot in-between.

The copyeditor's job is to make me look smarter than I am, and most of 'em do a darned fine job of it.
 

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And how do you know any of this is because of Hamilton? I've seen copy editors ruin more books, and make more mistakes, than the writer ever could.

The problem is often that the writer knows very little abut grammar and punctuation, and the copy editor doesn't care.

I. Beg. Your. Pardon.

I have been a copyeditor for 28 years. I assure you, Mr. Ritchie, that copyeditors care deeply about grammar and punctuation. Without it, we don't earn money and our reputation plummets.

I don't pretend to know about content editing, so I don't make blanket statements about content editors. Unless you, Mr. Ritchie, are a copyeditor, perhaps you might want to refrain from making blanket statements about copyeditors.
 

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And how do you know any of this is because of Hamilton?

1. She makes the same errors in her posts and email.

2. She's publicly stated that she refuses to be edited.

I've seen copy editors ruin more books, and make more mistakes, than the writer ever could.

Really? I'd like some citations please.

The problem is often that the writer knows very little abut grammar and punctuation, and the copy editor doesn't care.

I've read only a couple of Hamilton's books, but neither was poorly edited.

Go look at any of her books published after Incubus Dreams in 2004.

Go look at any of the reviews of those books, and you'll find many people noticing the same problems I note.

Either way, I'd be willing to be that Hamilton does not tell copy editors to ignore poor grammar and poor spelling.

You might want to actually talk to people at her publisher, as I have.

It's not a pretty story.
 

Deleted member 42

I really don't where this notion comes from that when a writer makes it big that writers stop wanting his or her books to be as professional as possible. It simply isn't true, and doesn't even make sense on the surface.

Mr. Ritchie the world does not work the way you want it to work. There's a little thing called reality that interferes.

I'm not sure why you think you know any of this; do you work as an editor? Are you currently employed by a publisher? Have you edited books that you can point to?

I realize that you've written four books in the '90s, but really, the author is not going to know the inner workings of production.

It's not their business.

It may be true that some writers could get published if they turned in a manuscript written in crayon, but these writers also know doing so would mean losing readers. The writer almost always takes the blame, not editors, and anyone who thinks there are no bad editors and copy editors out there just hasn't been published enough.

What have you published? When?

How many books have you edited?

Which publishers have hired you as a editor?

Have you had a best selling author call you and scream over the phone at you because they objected to the copyeditor correcting their egregious errors? Errors like comma splices, subject-verb agreement and changing a character's name midway through the book?

Errors made by the author.

The truth is often that when a writer gets big enough, editors stop doing their job because they know the book is going to sell, even if they don't touch it. I've heard a dozen writers complain about editors not doing the job they used to do, which is precisely why King made the publisher give him a new editor.

I'd like some actual citations.

Most published writers, no matter how big, take pride in their work, and want it to go out in the best possible shape. Which often means telling a copy editor to leave things the hell alone.

A professional writer who knows what he's talking about would know that a commercial publisher will honor stet.

You've just managed to gratuitously insult an entire profession.

The truth is more often that the editors simply aren't doing their jobs, even when the writer wishes they would.

Oh, please, editors who screw up get fired. Writers who screw up just don't get published, eventually. It takes three or four books sometimes, but it will happen.

I grow tired of you making assertions without anything to support you, other than your personal pocket reality.

What actual credentials do you have?

Anything since your book in 1997?

I've never, ever met a writer who told editors to leave a misspelled word in the manuscript.

I have. There are writers who really do think their every word is golden.

And when such a writer pisses off the editor—or the typesetter—enough, the editor or typesetter or both will in fact bow to the writer's demands and leave the copy as the writer wrote it.
 
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absitinvidia

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Dear Mr. Ritchie:

There's a basic rule on this board: Respect your fellow writer.

This does not mean it's just fine to insult everyone else.

I have been a copy editor for 20 years. I have worked with more than one big-name author who provided the editor with a specific list of things that I was not to touch (i.e., things the author KNEW were wrong but did not want corrected).

I care about grammar, spelling, and punctuation. I'm passionate about it. I also care about preserving the voice of the author. If I did not care about these things, I could not be a successful copy editor.

I'm accustomed to hearing readers blame any error in a book on the editor. I'm amazed and angered to hear it from someone who's involved in publishing, who should know the power of "Stet." I would suggest that perhaps you don't know as much about this particular subject as you think you do.