Need Some Guidance...

Clay · Jan 22, 2012

It has been a dream of mine to get a book published since I was a kid in fifth or sixth grade. Last summer, on the first of July, I at least partially realized my dream and got my first book published through a site called Lulu (a POD, self-publishing website). Now, I have no complaints against the site: I did all the work for my book (which is what I wanted), and they didn't charge me a penny beyond what I've spent ordering copies of my book to be distributed among friends and family.
Now, however, I've reached the point where I want my book to achieve something more. I want to try and get it submitted to a reputable publishing house so that more people can find out about it. I want people to hear about my books (including that which I've already published, and those that are still in the works), and to simply take delight from reading them. Furthermore, I want people to be inspired to write; I want my works to have the same effect on others that the works of J.R.R. Tolkien had on me when I was younger: to draw people into that realm of fantasy and to make them intrigued by it and want to, essentially, create worlds of their own derived from their own interests in religious or mythological concepts.
As of last September, I finished the copyrighting process for my book and received the certificate of copyright from the Copyright Office. In it the whole of my book, from cover to cover, is material owned exclusively by myself — and that's just how I want it to be. What I'm wondering now is this: would it be possible to find a literary agent who would even consider working with me to submit my book, as it is in its present form (with only minimal alterations, if any), to a publishing house with a good reputation? If that is not possible, or at least not probable, would I have any more luck if I tried to submit my work to a publisher by myself? And how might I go about by doing this? If it would be helpful in this regard, I'd be happy to post a link to my book. Thank you in advance!

Drachen Jager · Jan 22, 2012

Clay said:
would it be possible to find a literary agent who would even consider working with me to submit my book, as it is in its present form (with only minimal alterations, if any), to a publishing house with a good reputation? If that is not possible, or at least not probable, would I have any more luck if I tried to submit my work to a publisher by myself? And how might I go about by doing this? If it would be helpful in this regard, I'd be happy to post a link to my book. Thank you in advance!

Publishers rarely accept pre-published material unless it was very successful. For that reason Agents generally won't look at pre-published material unless it was very successful.

I cannot give an exact figure where a publisher or agent might look at your book, but I suspect it would have to be five figures or more in sales volume at a price approaching normal retail.

I'm afraid you wasted your time and money in the copyrighting process. It really doesn't help you at all.

Eli Hinze · Jan 22, 2012

Securing a literary agent is a difficult thing to do, though highly recommended. Many publishing houses won't even accept an unsolicited manuscript, (that is, one not represented by an agent), so if you want a shot at a brick-and-mortar store that's likely what you're looking for. It probably wouldn't be the smartest way to go about it either. Since the publishing house is in it for themselves, they'd try to get the best deal out of it, even if it means skimping out on what you get.
I'd recommend looking up some articles or books on how to submit to a literary agent. It gives you great experience and tougher skin. Again, it is very difficult to find representation, but can be well worth it. Once you know the process of how to submit to an agent, I'd recommend picking yourself up a copy of Writer's Market 2012.

P.S. An easier way to get an official copyright to your work is to send the manuscript to yourself. Since it has a government seal & date on it, it works the same as the official copyright. At least, that's what I've been told. I've never actually tried it myself. It's not a necessary step, but if it makes you feel that much more secure about putting it out into the open, have at it.

Best of luck!

DreamWeaver · Jan 22, 2012

H. E. Hinze said:
P.S. An easier way to get an official copyright to your work is to send the manuscript to yourself. Since it has a government seal & date on it, it works the same as the official copyright. At least, that's what I've been told. I've never actually tried it myself.

At the risk of getting a bit OT, I'm afraid that's an urban myth, though very popular and extremely widespread. Mailing something to oneself unfortunately doesn't provide any protection (for one thing, it's quite easy to mail an empy unsealed envelope to oneself).

Copyright exists from the moment one writes the work, and the best proof is one's drafts and working papers. One always has the right to sue for actual damages, should someone steal one's work, whether or not said work has been registered.

However, in the US registering copyright gives one the ability to sue for punitive damages in addition to actual damages, should one's work be misappropriated.

US only--don't know about other countries. Plus, IANAL, so if I've misstated anything, I'm sure a real lawyer will be along soon to correct me.

Back OT: Clay, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that you might get an agent interested. You won't know unless you try. To maximize chances, you should realize any publisher is going to want to edit any manuscript. Not to totally change it--just to tighten it up and help make it better. Think of the editors as Army drill sergeants, making your MS be all that it can be

.

Cyia · Jan 22, 2012

Clay,

The sad fact is, your book's been published. You've burned first rights, and while that's not an automatic rejection across the board, it's going to cause most agents/publishers to say no. Now, if you never made the book public (never offered it for public sale), and ONLY bought copies yourself, it's not likely to be considered published.

Even if you got someone to look at your book, and they liked it, it would still need to be edited, then re-edited, the more editing would come in other stages.

Copyrighting material before submission is the mark of an uninformed writer. It doesn't help you, and can actually hurt you. You already owned the copyright on your book before you had it registered. Publishers register copyright in the year a book is released, so you don't end up with a 2014 release, copyright 2012. Also, the second you edit, that registered copyright is useless for the new version.

And no, you're not going to have more luck without an agent. Even with the few publishers who will look at unagented submissions, the wait can take months-years for even a no without an agent. Agented submissions get priority, and those submissions aren't going to have a history attached to them. And you're still going to need to edit the book.

Even a bestseller like Amanda Hocking (who I use as a comparison because you self-published) was edited prior to re-release through her publisher when they bought the rights to her trilogy. New material was also added.

It's HIGHLY unlikely that your book is going to be in publishable shape as is. The overwhelming majority of self-published books aren't. There are exceptions, and you may well be one, but the odds are against it.

Mr. Anonymous · Jan 22, 2012

You've gotten good responses. I'll simply add that at this point, it may be more to your advantage to concentrate on your future works. I'm not sure about having to sell in the five figures, but certainly to interest an agent/publisher in a self-published manuscript you need to at least be selling in the thousands (at a price approaching retail.)

I'd set this book aside and query agents with your next one. I'd also encourage you to post bits of your writing here at Share Your Work to get feedback and work on your craft. With rare exception, first novels aren't very good.

Eli Hinze · Jan 22, 2012

Mr. Anonymous said:
You've gotten good responses. I'll simply add that at this point, it may be more to your advantage to concentrate on your future works. I'm not sure about having to sell in the five figures, but certainly to interest an agent/publisher in a self-published manuscript you need to at least be selling in the thousands (at a price approaching retail.)

I'd set this book aside and query agents with your next one. I'd also encourage you to post bits of your writing here at Share Your Work to get feedback and work on your craft. With rare exception, first novels aren't very good.

^ This. I'd written an entire trilogy, queried it for months, invested my time, heart, and effort into it, but eventually self published it. Why? It was a first novel. (Well, there are three novels, but they're all connected, so more like a fire project really). Everyone loves their own work or else they wouldn't have stuck with it for so long. But there comes a point where you have to say that it stays in the past and serves as a great learning experience. And if you still want to reach a wider audience? Make it available as an eBook as well and promote it! It's worked well for quite a few people.
That being said, everyone comes to that time where they must move on from their first writing love and move onto bigger and better things.

Clay · Jan 22, 2012

Thanks for the input everyone! This raises another question for me, though: having published a book (even though it is only a self-published work), will that be more helpful to me in searching for an agent with my forthcoming books? The problem I ran into before choosing to self-publish was that the whole process is, for a first-time writer, a catch-22 type of situation. Most literary agents won't work with anyone who hasn't already achieved publication, regardless of what they tend to say about being open to new writers (I know this partly from my own experiences, and partly from the countless hours spent browsing the internet trying to figure things out). But if an aspiring writer can't (as it seems to me) get a book published without an agent, or at least if it is so very unlikely to get published without an agent, how then does anyone get anything published? The main thing I'm wondering is whether or not an agent would view my self-published work in a positive light. Or would it just look like another rejected work that couldn't find a home in the conventional publishing world, and therefore ended up being self-published? Sorry if I sound redundant, but to be even simpler: could I use my self-published work as a steppingstone to publish my next book (of which I am probably at this point a little more than halfway through with the initial drafting) through more traditional means?

suki · Jan 22, 2012

Clay said:
Thanks for the input everyone! This raises another question for me, though: having published a book (even though it is only a self-published work), will that be more helpful to me in searching for an agent with my forthcoming books?

No. Not unless you sold significant numbers.

The problem I ran into before choosing to self-publish was that the whole process is, for a first-time writer, a catch-22 type of situation. Most literary agents won't work with anyone who hasn't already achieved publication, regardless of what they tend to say about being open to new writers (I know this partly from my own experiences, and partly from the countless hours spent browsing the internet trying to figure things out).

This is flat out not true. Sorry. There are many, many, many people on these forums alone who signed with agents without any publishing credits. It's a total myth that you can't get an agent if you are unpublished.

But if an aspiring writer can't (as it seems to me) get a book published without an agent, or at least if it is so very unlikely to get published without an agent, how then does anyone get anything published?

Some sell without an agent, but many, many sign with agents.

The main thing I'm wondering is whether or not an agent would view my self-published work in a positive light.

some won't care at all, and some will see it as a strike. But unless you had significant sales, it won't be a "positive" in terms of helping your query.

Or would it just look like another rejected work that couldn't find a home in the conventional publishing world, and therefore ended up being self-published? Sorry if I sound redundant, but to be even simpler: could I use my self-published work as a steppingstone to publish my next book (of which I am probably at this point a little more than halfway through with the initial drafting) through more traditional means?

You need to do some research. Spend some time reading some of the heads here, becaus simply put, you need to re-educate yourself regarding the realities of the market and trade publishing.

The good news is, you are here, and can do just that. So...go read some of the threads posted by others.

And welcome to AW.

Cyia · Jan 22, 2012

Clay said:
Thanks for the input everyone! This raises another question for me, though: having published a book (even though it is only a self-published work), will that be more helpful to me in searching for an agent with my forthcoming books?

No. While self-publishing makes a book "published", it doesn't count as a professional publishing credit.

The problem I ran into before choosing to self-publish was that the whole process is, for a first-time writer, a catch-22 type of situation. Most literary agents won't work with anyone who hasn't already achieved publication, regardless of what they tend to say about being open to new writers (I know this partly from my own experiences, and partly from the countless hours spent browsing the internet trying to figure things out).

This is pointedly not true. Agents sign new writers all the time. I'm among the several members of this site who had never published a thing when they were signed by their agents. Agents will and do read submissions from unknowns on a daily basis.

ALL writers start off as unpublished. If agents didn't sign the unpublished, no writer would ever get an agent.

could I use my self-published work as a steppingstone to publish my next book (of which I am probably at this point a little more than halfway through with the initial drafting) through more traditional means?

Not unless you sell enough copies to be newsworthy.

Mr. Anonymous · Jan 22, 2012

EDIT: I see Cyia and Suki beat me to it, ha.

Thanks for the input everyone! This raises another question for me, though: having published a book (even though it is only a self-published work), will that be more helpful to me in searching for an agent with my forthcoming books?

Agents do not consider self-publication a legitimate publishing cred, because there is no hoop to jump through. Anyone can do it. Now, again, if your self-published novel sold in the thousands, that would be worth mentioning. But ultimately, an agent will take you on (or not), based on the quality of the manuscript you submit to them (and again, hard as it may be to hear this, very few people manage to reach this level of writing on their first try. It took me four years and four novels, and the novel that got me an agent might not even get published.)

The problem I ran into before choosing to self-publish was that the whole process is, for a first-time writer, a catch-22 type of situation. Most literary agents won't work with anyone who hasn't already achieved publication,

This is simply untrue. Every writer was once a newbie. I got an agent as an unpublished writer, and so have many others on this site. Literary agents work with people who produce work they deem publishable. Granted, it's a subjective business, but chances are, if you've achieved a certain level of writing, then you'll find an agent who's interesting in repping you.

. But if an aspiring writer can't (as it seems to me) get a book published without an agent, or at least if it is so very unlikely to get published without an agent, how then does anyone get anything published?

See above. It's not a catch 22. Yeah, agents perk up when you say you've been previously published, because it means someone has vetted you in the past, and chances are you're going to be a notch or three above most of the other queriers. But agents also reject previously published writers ALL THE TIME.

The main thing I'm wondering is whether or not an agent would view my self-published work in a positive light. Or would it just look like another rejected work that couldn't find a home in the conventional publishing world, and therefore ended up being self-published?

You answered your own question. Unfortunate as it is, that's exactly what lit agents will think, unless, as I said, your book sells well.

Filigree · Jan 22, 2012

Clay, I second what has already been noted: you published the book, you cannot offer first rights on it to an agent or publisher, and unless it turns into a word-of-mouth bestseller, it's going to stay on Lulu.

That's not a bad thing. Take heart from having the tenacity to write it, edit it, and publish it yourself, then consider it one of your training novels. Write something else. Polish it obsessively, then get some objective feedback on the mms before you even *think* about querying an agent or publisher. Or self-publishing again - the Hocking story illustrates how important professional editing and formatting can be, to improve a book's chances in the marketplace.

Don't lose that first love of writing, but arm yourself with some knowledge, too.

Clay · Jan 22, 2012

All right. Thanks again to all of you for the help! While it is definitely nice to read that things aren't nearly as hopeless for a first-time author as they've seemed before (what with the whole "catch-22" scenario I described above), it does make me wish I'd found out about this site a lot sooner than I did. Still, your contributions are much appreciated.

Drachen Jager · Jan 22, 2012

Things aren't hopeless for a first time writer at all. You just have to remember you're competing with 1,000 other people for that publishing deal. Fortunately 90% or more of competing manuscripts are complete crap, but you still need to be better than the other 99.

It's a tough hill to climb, you just have to look at ways to improve your standing, get your manuscript noticed (preferably in a good way), and with a bit of luck, timing and persistence you might even make it.

I'm a little ray of sunshine aren't I?

kaitie · Jan 23, 2012

I agree with what's been said above and would add that your best bet would be to work on a new book and submit that. Not only will it not have a history (which will set the bar higher for you), it will also be better than the one you've already written.

The reason it's so difficult to get published has nothing to do with being first-time and everything to do with the fact that it's just incredibly difficult for an author to learn to write at a professional level. It takes years of work and hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of words for most writers to get their work to the level required.

This site has a ton of information about writing as well. I'd check out Uncle Jim's thread in the novel's section and browse through here and check out the SYW area once you have enough posts. This will help you learn more of the ins and outs of being a professional-level writer, how to write queries, and will teach you more about the industry, all of which are important if you want to be a success in this field. Good luck.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 23, 2012

I would also add that publishers don't give a damn about first rights where novels are concerned. First rights really applies to short works, not novels.

The reason most won't go near a self published novels has nothing at all to do with first rights. It's purely, 100% a case of sales numbers. By self-publishing, you put your book on the market. The question then becomes how did the market respond?

If you sold one hundred copies, publishers have no reason to think they can sell more.

If you sold 10,000 copies, one publisher or another will grab your book, and nowhere will first rights even be mentioned. Publishers care only about market potential. How many copies will it sell if we publish it? That's it.

shaldna · Jan 24, 2012

Clay said:
Now, however, I've reached the point where I want my book to achieve something more. I want to try and get it submitted to a reputable publishing house so that more people can find out about it.

If you have already published the book then publishers are less likely to be interested. Of course, if the book sells massive amounts (like 10,000 copies in six months) then they might be interested, but in all likelyhood they aren't going to want this book.

As of last September, I finished the copyrighting process for my book and received the certificate of copyright from the Copyright Office. In it the whole of my book, from cover to cover, is material owned exclusively by myself — and that's just how I want it to be.

That was a complete waste of time and money. Your work is automatically protected by copyright as soon as you create it. Registering it is a waste of time and money.

What I'm wondering now is this: would it be possible to find a literary agent who would even consider working with me to submit my book, as it is in its present form (with only minimal alterations, if any), to a publishing house with a good reputation?

Probably not. For reasons answered in part one.

If that is not possible, or at least not probable, would I have any more luck if I tried to submit my work to a publisher by myself?

Probably not.

And how might I go about by doing this?

Have a look around these forums, read the stickies - you'll find out pretty much everything you need to know.

But in all reality, and I don't want to put you off, but your book has already been published, this makes it much less desirable to publishers and agents. My advice is to write a new book.

Jennifer_Laughran · Jan 24, 2012

Jamesaritchie said:
I would also add that publishers don't give a damn about first rights where novels are concerned. First rights really applies to short works, not novels.

The reason most won't go near a self published novels has nothing at all to do with first rights. It's purely, 100% a case of sales numbers. By self-publishing, you put your book on the market. The question then becomes how did the market respond?

If you sold one hundred copies, publishers have no reason to think they can sell more.

If you sold 10,000 copies, one publisher or another will grab your book, and nowhere will first rights even be mentioned. Publishers care only about market potential. How many copies will it sell if we publish it? That's it.

Amen.

CrastersBabies · Jan 26, 2012

I have never had an agent tell me that they've refused a query/manuscript based on having no publications.

SOME agents might see some short story publications in your past and think, "okay, this person is taking their writing seriously," but it in no way will sell your manuscript for you. The work still has to shine and sparkle and capture/maintain their attention.

A friend of mine had a piece published in a lit-mag and an agent approached him about representation. Pal wrote a book (giving pieces to agent as he went for editing) and sold the book a few months ago, but those instances are very rare.

As for editing, yeah, even if you're snapped up by an agent, you'll have edits. Then, you'll get to the publisher and have even more edits. I've known authors who have gotten to the Barnes and Noble level and had to make minor alterations. If you are dead-set against editing and revising and rewriting, then self-publishing may be your avenue.

I would imagine agents and publishers alike get a good chuckle whenever they hear, "I don't want my work edited."

IceCreamEmpress · Jan 27, 2012

Yes, it's not so much "first rights" issues with self-published books, it's that the book already has a track record in terms of sales. If you've only sold a hundred or a couple of hundred copies, that's not an encouraging track record.

When you think of the people who have transitioned from self-publishing to being published by a commercial publisher, they're almost always people who knocked themselves out to sell thousands of copies. Amanda Hocking, Brunonia Barry, E. Lynn Harris, Zane, etc., etc.

As a certified lazy person, I suggest it's probably easiest to move on to your next project and query agents who can sell the work to a commercial publisher. Unless you love self-publishing and marketing and promotion and all that, as some authors do!

Stacia Kane · Jan 27, 2012

CrastersBabies said:
As for editing, yeah, even if you're snapped up by an agent, you'll have edits. Then, you'll get to the publisher and have even more edits. I've known authors who have gotten to the Barnes and Noble level and had to make minor alterations. If you are dead-set against editing and revising and rewriting, then self-publishing may be your avenue.

I would imagine agents and publishers alike get a good chuckle whenever they hear, "I don't want my work edited."

I'm always confused when I hear writers say they don't want to be edited. You don't want input from experts on how to make your book better, really? You don't want the advice and opinions of people who love your work and are highly invested in it, really?

I think it stems, at least in part, from a belief that editors just change stuff willy-nilly and authors have to just sit back and take it. We don't--not at any decent publisher, at least (amateur or unprofessional houses may work differently). The author always has final say. I've accepted a lot of suggestions from my agent/editors and I've accepted a lot of suggested changes from my copyeditors. I've also declined to make a lot of suggested changed from my editors/agent and and stetted a lot of changes suggested by copyeditors. It's up to me, and nobody else.

The author's name goes on the book. The author gets final say. If an editor or agent or publisher tells you different*, run.

(*The exception comes with some house style issues, which are usually presentation-based rather than editorial. Like replacing / with -.)

shaldna · Jan 28, 2012

Stacia Kane said:
I'm always confused when I hear writers say they don't want to be edited. ......

......
I think it stems, at least in part, from a belief that editors just change stuff willy-nilly and authors have to just sit back and take it.

I also think a huge part of it is that some people are so damn PRECIOUS about their work.

I've heard it so many times from new writers that they don't want to change anything because it's 'perfect'

Gold word syndrome.

Need Some Guidance...

Professor of applied misanthropy

Snuggler of Cats & Writer of Things

Shakespearean Fool

Rewriting My Destiny

Just a guy with a pen & a delusion

Snuggler of Cats & Writer of Things

Opinionated

Rewriting My Destiny

Just a guy with a pen & a delusion

Mildly Disturbing

Professor of applied misanthropy

With great power comes

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

knows what she's looking for when she finds it!

Burninator!

Hapless Virago

Girl Detective

The cake is a lie. But still cake.