Professionally edited before submission?

IMHO the only time when it is worth considering professional editing (unless you are self-publishing) is when you have consistently received feedback suggesting that the manuscript is 'nearly there' and you have exhausted the free options of beta readers/writing groups.

There have been so many threads on this topic that we really should have a sticky for it.

I'll tell you what I tell most authors who approach me about editing:

I'm always hesitant to sell my editorial services to authors, especially if you're going the traditional publishing route (vs. self-publishing). First, your agent, and eventually your publisher, are likely going to offer you some editorial suggestions and hire their own copyeditors as well. Second, hiring a professional editor is not cheap. Even with affordable rates like mine, you could be talking about a minimum of $500 *for copyediting to $1,000 for editing. Even for an indie author making an investment in his work, that can be a hefty chunk of change. You can read a little more about my philosophy here as well as a few recommendations for free and much cheaper alternatives to hiring an editor.


Writer Beware also has an excellent article on the subject here, which I highly recommend reading.

Arcadia Divine said:

Does it make any sense to have a novel professionally edited by an outside editor before submitting it to a publisher (or even an agent)? Would it increase the chances of a contract or does it even matter?

I hear about people doing this often, but since the book will get professionally edited anyway if accepted, I was wondering if there was a point.

Click to expand...

Don't waste your money. Enlist some beta readers and then polish it up yourself.

Arcadia Divine said:

Does it make any sense to have a novel professionally edited by an outside editor before submitting it to a publisher (or even an agent)? Would it increase the chances of a contract or does it even matter?

I hear about people doing this often, but since the book will get professionally edited anyway if accepted, I was wondering if there was a point.

Click to expand...

That's like saying, "Does it make sense to have something professionally edited before you send it to a professional editor for editing."

The only editor out there who knows how a piece should be written is the one who buys it.

Beyond what's already been said, if you sell the work, you'll have to make changes, and the publisher's editor will expect changes to be made to the same standard as the manuscript they contracted. If you can't edit to a publishable standard on your own, you could find yourself in a bind when your publisher wants changes.

I chose to have my current work out on submission professionally edited by my crit partner, whom I know and trust. Bearing in mind this was a business type request, we agreed on a price and I sent her the manuscript.

I asked her to look for specific things, such as continuity, reaction-before-action sounding constructions, lack of clarity in dialogue (lack of tags/beats), and flow. Since she's read enough of my stuff to know all my bad habits, it was a no-brainer for me. I love this story and I want it to have the best possible chance of finding a good, caring home. Her edits have been spot-on. As I say, she can spot every glitch I make. There's no hiding anything from the Eagle Eye!

I do, however, expect to make changes when I get an offer from a publisher. This goes without saying. For this particular story of mine, it wasn't a matter of either/or. I wanted both. Hopefully the story will undergo further edits -- once a nice advance check changes hands.

Deb Kinnard said:

I chose to have my current work out on submission professionally edited by my crit partner, whom I know and trust. Bearing in mind this was a business type request, we agreed on a price and I sent her the manuscript.

I asked her to look for specific things, such as continuity, reaction-before-action sounding constructions, lack of clarity in dialogue (lack of tags/beats), and flow. Since she's read enough of my stuff to know all my bad habits, it was a no-brainer for me. I love this story and I want it to have the best possible chance of finding a good, caring home. Her edits have been spot-on. As I say, she can spot every glitch I make. There's no hiding anything from the Eagle Eye!

I do, however, expect to make changes when I get an offer from a publisher. This goes without saying. For this particular story of mine, it wasn't a matter of either/or. I wanted both. Hopefully the story will undergo further edits -- once a nice advance check changes hands.

Click to expand...

If you can't make the original changes, and do the original editing, without hiring it done, why should anyone, such as the editor at a big publisher, believe you can do all the editing and rewriting required during the publishing process?

Either you're capable of doing the work, or you aren't. If you are, you don't need to hire an editor. If you aren't, you're going to be in a world of hurt when you see how much editing, revision, and rewriting you'll have to do after a publisher shows interest. And as a new writer, this editing, revision, and rewriting will probably have to be done before you actually receive a contract.

There's also another problem. No matter how good a hired editor is, as often as not he or she will make changes that the editor at a publishing house hates. Editors do not all think alike, and do not all want the same thing, or share a belief in what's good and what's bad.

It's also been my experience that even the best hired editor often turns a poorly edited, but wonderful story into a wonderfully edited, but poor story.

Using a hired editor is not something I'd mention in a query letter.

Professionally edited before submission?

Click to expand...

Waste of time, waste of money, and a big-ol' red flag that the author isn't yet ready for prime time.

If you're self-publishing you can (and maybe should) hire an editor (and a copyeditor, and a proofreader, and a cover artist...), but if you're submitting to a publisher, no. Publishers have editors on staff.

Jamesaritchie said:

Either you're capable of doing the work, or you aren't. If you are, you don't need to hire an editor. If you aren't, you're going to be in a world of hurt when you see how much editing, revision, and rewriting you'll have to do after a publisher shows interest.

Click to expand...

I certainly wouldn't recommend hiring an editor. (Except in unusual cases) But this statement makes no sense. Editors bring a perspective and fresh eye to a ms. If that were not the case, no book would ever need to be edited in the first place -- which is patently untrue. Even great writers benefit from good editors. An author can be too close to his or her work to see it clearly.

And as a new writer, this editing, revision, and rewriting will probably have to be done before you actually receive a contract.

Click to expand...

That certainly has not been my experience. Editors are mostly too busy to take on a "project," spending valuable time working on a book that they may or may not end up buying.

Editors who work for publishing companies seldom work on spec.

Some of it has to do with comfort level. Are you comfortable enough with your grammar and spelling to say, "Hey. A publisher is going to read this and not cringe."?

I've come to terms with my strong and weak points. I am great at creative writing, terrible at technical writing. With that in mind, I will most likely hire an editor for my current novel before I begin submitting it.

randi.lee said:

Some of it has to do with comfort level. Are you comfortable enough with your grammar and spelling to say, "Hey. A publisher is going to read this and not cringe."?

I've come to terms with my strong and weak points. I am great at creative writing, terrible at technical writing. With that in mind, I will most likely hire an editor for my current novel before I begin submitting it.

Click to expand...

Well, it depends on what one means by editing.

A good editor will provide valuable suggestions -- such as, "In this scene I don't quite buy he would go off alone to the haunted house. You need a more compelling reason why he would do something like that."

Editors don't rewrite your text -- they point the way toward a better story, and sometimes identify clumsy passages, but fixing it is up to you.

Grammar, spelling, and punctuation are the basic building blocks of writing prose of any sort. If you're not comfortable with your mastery of such things, you need to study and become comfortable. Getting someone to do it for you is ducking the work, and a bad way to go

rugcat said:

Grammar, spelling, and punctuation are the basic building blocks of writing prose of any sort. If you're not comfortable with your mastery of such things, you need to study and become comfortable. Getting someone to do it for you is ducking the work, and a bad way to go

Click to expand...

This. As I mentioned upstream, if you contract a manuscript, the editor will expect any rewrites to be done at the same standard as the rest of the manuscript. What if you need to add a whole new chapter? How do you think it will look if the new material is filled with basic errors? Here's a clue: it'll look unprofessional.

If you want to be a professional writer, you have to master the tools of the trade. Period. You wouldn't hire a carpenter who didn't know how to use a hammer or a measuring tape. You wouldn't hire a car mechanic who didn't know an alternator from a generator. Why would you expect a publisher to 'hire' a writer who doesn't know grammar, spelling, and punctuation?

I think the only editor you'd want to work with is one who has edited books that have been accepted by major presses. Also, what Mr. Macdonald said is a bit old school. I thikn there are lots of agents and publishers that want books and authors to work wtih editors first. Or at least lots that welcome them with open arms knowing that they used editors before comeing to them. Need examples?

Michener was "old school," too. He said he was a good storyteller and a terrible writer. He credits his editor with making his work readable. She worked for the publisher. His "James A. Michener's Writers Handbook" discusses the process with examples of his chapters in various stages of editing.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0517197138/?tag=absowrit-20

I recommend it even if it is "old school."

MarieSalvros said:

Also, what Mr. Macdonald said is a bit old school. I thikn there are lots of agents and publishers that want books and authors to work wtih editors first. Or at least lots that welcome them with open arms knowing that they used editors before comeing to them. Need examples?

Click to expand...

Yes, please. What Bix 6 editors or top agents can you name that want books that have been edited by someone other than the writer?

randi.lee said:

I've come to terms with my strong and weak points. I am great at creative writing, terrible at technical writing. With that in mind, I will most likely hire an editor for my current novel before I begin submitting it.

Click to expand...

The problem with this theory is, what will happen once the book is purchased and the REAL editing begins? If the editor at the publisher says you need to completely re-write chapter 4, change the interaction between character A and B throughout and rewrite the ending (and oh, by the way, the edits have to be on her desk in two months) . . . well, you've got a problem. If you have to rely on a third party to produce a shelf-quality product on a time schedule, you'll struggle and the publisher might give up on you.

It could be the first and only deal you get.

Terie said:

Yes, please. What Bix 6 editors or top agents can you name that want books that have been edited by someone other than the writer?

Click to expand...

Okee dokee. here's jsut a few. Feel free to look up their agents. I've listed their publishers. All of them speek very openly about using an editor for at least their first books and a couple of them credit their editors for helping them break into the industry. I think it was yardley that said she made multiple passes with an editor for 2 years before her book was ready to take to agents.

Jon Mayhew : Bloomsbury.
Sarwat Chadda: The Devil’s Kiss, Disney Hyperion & Puffin
Joanna Kenrick, Red Tears, Faber and Faber
Ava McCarthy, The Insider, HarperCollins (six figure deal)
Ellen Renner, Castle of Shadows, Orchard Books (Hachette)
E.V. Seymour, The last Exile, Mira
Jane Yardley, Random House

Terie said:

Yes, please. What Bix 6 editors or top agents can you name that want books that have been edited by someone other than the writer?

Click to expand...

Good question. And not only Big Six. I had books published by Prentice-Hall, Henry Holt, IDG Books, Wiley, and some small presses too, and none of them ever expected edited manuscripts.

Al Stevens said:

Good question. And not only Big Six. I had books published by Prentice-Hall, Henry Holt, IDG Books, Wiley, and some small presses too, and none of them ever expected edited manuscripts.

Click to expand...

No one said "expected" they said, "accepted" It was implied that using an editor is a mark of an amateur and should not be done. I was showing that there are presses and agents who knowingly accept authors who usd editors before submission.

MarieSalvros said:

No one said "expected" they said, "accepted" It was implied that using an editor is a mark of an amateur and should not be done. I was showing that there are presses and agents who knowingly accept authors who usd editors before submission.

Click to expand...

The ones who accept "professionally edited" manuscripts generally aren't in the first tier, or even the second.

MarieSalvros said:

I think the only editor you'd want to work with is one who has edited books that have been accepted by major presses. Also, what Mr. Macdonald said is a bit old school. I thikn there are lots of agents and publishers that want books and authors to work wtih editors first. Or at least lots that welcome them with open arms knowing that they used editors before comeing to them. Need examples?

Click to expand...

MarieSalvros said:

Okee dokee. here's jsut a few. Feel free to look up their agents. I've listed their publishers. All of them speek very openly about using an editor for at least their first books and a couple of them credit their editors for helping them break into the industry. I think it was yardley that said she made multiple passes with an editor for 2 years before her book was ready to take to agents.

Jon Mayhew : Bloomsbury.
Sarwat Chadda: The Devil’s Kiss, Disney Hyperion & Puffin
Joanna Kenrick, Red Tears, Faber and Faber
Ava McCarthy, The Insider, HarperCollins (six figure deal)
Ellen Renner, Castle of Shadows, Orchard Books (Hachette)
E.V. Seymour, The last Exile, Mira
Jane Yardley, Random House

Click to expand...

The list you've provided doesn't support your original contention.

You said that editors and agents 'want books and authors to work wtih editors first.' What you provided as evidence of this is a short list of authors who openly admit to having used an editor before submission.

This list does not prove that the editors and agents involved in these deals knew in advance that the authors used third-party editors, much less that the editors and agents want work that has been edited by a third party prior to submission.

So let's go back to your original statement. Please name some top-tier editors and agents who say they want authors to have their work edited by a third-party editor prior to submission, rather than naming authors who got deals having used a third-party editor.

Terie said:

The list you've provided doesn't support your original contention.

Click to expand...

Actually it does.

Terie said:

You said that editors and agents 'want books and authors to work wtih editors first.' What you provided as evidence of this is a short list of authors who openly admit to having used an editor before submission.

Click to expand...

Want, as in, don't not want.

Terie said:

This list does not prove that the editors and agents involved in these deals knew in advance that the authors used third-party editors, much less that the editors and agents want work that has been edited by a third party prior to submission.

Click to expand...

Had you looked up any one of those authors, you would have found evidience that the at least all of their agents knew. A couple of them openly talked about it.

Terie said:

So let's go back to your original statement. Please name some top-tier editors and agents who say they want authors to have their work edited by a third-party editor prior to submission, rather than naming authors who got deals having used a third-party editor.

Click to expand...

You're reading "want" as in request. I'm writing "want" as in it doesn't bother them and they're happy to work with. It was said up thread that using an editor means you're not ready for the big time. That list I gave you is of very successful authors, with very big agents, who were deemed ready for the big time despite openly using an editor.

MarieSalvros said:

You're reading "want" as in request.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's right. Because that's what the word 'want' means: it's an active desire.

MarieSalvros said:

I'm writing "want" as in it doesn't bother them and they're happy to work with.

Click to expand...

What you mean, then, is 'don't mind'. Which doesn't mean the same thing as the word 'want'.

This goes to the very heart of what I mean about writers needing to know how to use the tools of the trade themselves so as to convey their meaning accurately.

Terie said:

Yes, that's right. Because that's what the word 'want' means: it's an active desire.



What you mean, then, is 'don't mind'. Which doesn't mean the same thing as the word 'want'.

Click to expand...

Those agents had a desire to possess the manuscripts that were brought to them. They wanted them even though they knew they had been edited. They. Wanted. Them.

interviewer: Hi mr agent, do you want manuscripts that have been professionally edited by a third party?

Agent: Sure. I also want manuscripts that aren't edited by a thrid party.

Terie said:

This goes to the very heart of what I mean about writers needing to know how to use the tools of the trade themselves so as to convey their meaning accurately.

Click to expand...

And writers need to know how to read a paragraph, and not cherry pick a sentence and base an entire argument over one line.

Originally Posted by MarieSalvros
I think the only editor you'd want to work with is one who has edited books that have been accepted by major presses. Also, what Mr. Macdonald said is a bit old school. I thikn there are lots of agents and publishers that want books and authors to work wtih editors first. Or at least lots that welcome them with open arms knowing that they used editors before comeing to them. Need examples?

Click to expand...