How do you know when to research?

[Celia Cyanide]

This might be better in the research forum, and if so, please move it. I posted it here because it seems to get the most traffic.

I wanted to get some of your opinions on research, and when to do it. We were talking about it in my class tonight, and my teacher mentioned that in one of his books, he got the name of one of the streets wrong that he drove down every day.

It occurs to me that you might be writing a story and think you know something, when you actually don't. For example, say I was writing a story about paramedics. I had an experience in college when I ODed, and the ambulance came. There were two paramedics there, and one of them was incredibly rude to my roommate, and her mother. I always thought it was because they just aren't nice to you when you OD. But if I wrote a story about this, and included that, how would I know that this was typical behavior for them? And if I interviewed a few paramedics, they might tell me that something like this would never happen in real life, when in fact, it did.

If my teacher forgot the name of that street, I might forget things I think I know. Like if I were writing about First Avenue where I work. I would never think to myself, "better check that with Nate." Anybody who knew me would probably read it and assume it was correct. But then someone else might read it later and say, "No, The Jayhawks didn't play the first night First Ave reopened. Gwar did."

So how do you know when you're treading into territory where you need to do some research and fact checking? You could always say "all of it," but when you're writing a novel, is that really practical?

[Lyra Jean]

I'm going through this right now. My novel takes place mostly on Tundra/Steppe terrain surrounded by mountains with alot of earthquake/tornado activity. I live in Florida. So I don't have any expertise. I just write the novel and if I'm not sure about something then I just make something up that sounds plausible then I write a note in the margin like (how are rivers formed?) (What are prisoners uniforms made of) It's a penal colony and it being on Tundra well I need to know what they can wear and it still looks like the government doesn't care if they live or die. (Exactly how long can a person go without food or water?) (Can you move a person who is a coma safely?) Then when I rewrite I know what to look for.

[PeeDee]

This was an ironic thread to come on and see. For the first time in my writing career, I'm actually facing the need for major research, just to get the particulars of the story right. it's one of the things that seems so daunting to me right now (which hardly stops me, mind).

For whatever reason, this wasn't an issue till now. Either the details were irrelevant (irrelevant by and large means "not there") or else the story dictated another world, or perhaps just a shelled out version of this world.
So far, I'm using it as an excuse to phone people up and say, "Hey, I'm writing a book, I don't want to sound like a total dope, can I come and look around, ask questions, so forth?"

By and large, people like to talk, so they say yes. I've gotten a guided tour of a rock quarry, a magnificant house-on-top-of-a-pile-of-rocks, got to chat with paramedics briefly (will chat with them further) and I have to admit, I'm beginning to think of excuses I can use to "research."

I mean, what could be more fun?

[Linda Adams]

This might be better in the research forum, and if so, please move it. I posted it here because it seems to get the most traffic.

I wanted to get some of your opinions on research, and when to do it. We were talking about it in my class tonight, and my teacher mentioned that in one of his books, he got the name of one of the streets wrong that he drove down every day.

It occurs to me that you might be writing a story and think you know something, when you actually don't. For example, say I was writing a story about paramedics. I had an experience in college when I ODed, and the ambulance came. There were two paramedics there, and one of them was incredibly rude to my roommate, and her mother. I always thought it was because they just aren't nice to you when you OD. But if I wrote a story about this, and included that, how would I know that this was typical behavior for them? And if I interviewed a few paramedics, they might tell me that something like this would never happen in real life, when in fact, it did.

If my teacher forgot the name of that street, I might forget things I think I know. Like if I were writing about First Avenue where I work. I would never think to myself, "better check that with Nate." Anybody who knew me would probably read it and assume it was correct. But then someone else might read it later and say, "No, The Jayhawks didn't play the first night First Ave reopened. Gwar did."

So how do you know when you're treading into territory where you need to do some research and fact checking? You could always say "all of it," but when you're writing a novel, is that really practical?

Tess Gerritsen talks about this in her blog (see the entry on 11/20): http://www.tessgerritsen.com/blogs.cfm. She got one of the streets wrong, too. It happens.

[Jamesaritchie]

I do most of my research when final draft time rolls around. Mistakes in the first draft are seldom important. They can be fixed. Before starting a first draft, I sit down and read a couple of thick books that cover the basic subject matter and area of the novel. I also get a territory map and of the area the novel is set in, along with a street map of any town or city. It's darned hard to get street names wrong if you're using a street map and paying attention.

At this point I write the first draft. If I come to a point where research that can't be answered in two minutes is needed, I insert a note, then go on writing. When fial draft time comes along, I go through these notes and do whatever research is needed for each.

Things such as whether or not paramedics may treat people rudely really don't need research. As long as your paramedics are human, you can give them whatever personality you wish.

I have a nephew who's a paramedic. He's sometimes very rude, even though he's the nicest guy in the world outside the job. But when he's rude on the job, it's for a reason. He says rudeness is usually the best and quickest way to make people shut up, back off, and let you do your job, which is saving a life.

[James D. Macdonald]

You always research everything, and hope it's enough.

It won't be.

[SusanR]

I've had two areas of research to do with my WIP, because there are two parallel stories being told, one contemporary and the other set circa 1800 Albany, NY.

The contemporary section's MC is a medical examiner. I'm a psychiatrist. The last time I had much truck with a corpse was during Gross Anatomy in med school. Not to mention I knew next to nothing about crime scenes, ancient DNA, or fetal bone, all critical story elements. So I found myself a couple of generous experts and picked their brains.

The historical section was MUCH harder for me. At least with the medical examiner, I share a common technical language--I speak "medical." In writing history, I had to make the past come alive: the sights, sounds, and smells; the manners and speech of another time; the whole zeitgeist. What I did was to read widely until I had a grasp of that zeitgeist. Then I started writing, and when I hit an impenetrable snag, I stopped and found out what I needed to know. For example, a couple of chapters had to take place on a boat going up the Hudson River from Tarrytown to Albany in the year 1798. I had to find out what kind of boats did that sort of run, what they looked like, how fast they traveled, what kind of crew was needed, etc, etc. That took a couple of weeks to get under control!

You research until your setting becomes vivid in your own mind. Then you fill in details as you write, or rewrite.

I think an isolated tiny imperfect detail, like getting a street name wrong, won't bother most readers. (Maybe a real nitpicker who lives on the street will care.) But you want to keep them to a minimum, of course.

The real issue is how much detail is needed to create the illusion of specific place and time? It's kind of like a stage setting. The set has to support the action, characters, and atmosphere of the story, but not overwhelm or become the story.

Or maybe it's more like a foundation garment. Makes and keeps a shape, but is hidden......

Or maybe......I should quit with the analogies while I'm ahead, if I am!

SusanR, who really, really loves research.

[Aconite]

You always research everything, and hope it's enough.

It won't be.
And that is why good publishers have copyeditors, bless them.

[Jamesaritchie]

I'd add to all this by saying how much you research depends largely on how much you already know. So reading nonfiction widely, and as a matter of course, helps greatly. I have to do almost no research on any small arms weapon used before 1980 or so because I've not only spent years studying them, I've actually used most of them. Likelwise, I need to do very little research on the ighteenth and nineteenth century because I've read hundreds and hundreds of books dealing with them. I have to look up minor details, and sometime sdates that I've forgotten, but by and large, I need very little research for these time periods.

But if I want to write a story that contains current pop culture, I'd have to study for a month before I could begin to write.

And too much research can be as bad as no research. Fiction is about the story and the characters, and knowing what to leave out is at least as important as knowing what to put in. Research is important, but the background of a story is there for verisimilitude. It's flavoring, or better, it's spice, and it doesn't take a great deal of spice to flavor food.

I don't think there's ever an excuse to get things wrong. Street names are easy, and should never be wrong. All you have to do is look at a street map and copy the name, for heaven's sake. But when you leave something out, you aren't getting it wrong.

You don't have to know how to build a watch in order to tell someone what time it is, you don't have to know how to build a car in order to have a character drive one, and you don't have to know what's inside an ambulance to write "The paramedics arrived at ten-fifteen. They pronounced John Doe dead exactly eight minutes later."

Research is a good thing, but a writer can get so wrapped up in research that the novel never gets written. If a bit of research can wait until the final draft, then let it wait. Getting the novel written is the most important thing.

[blacbird]

And that is why good publishers have copyeditors, bless them.

And if you rely on such, you're probably already in trouble. If you want an example, check out Tony Hillerman's recent novel The Sinister Pig, which features such things as blatantly erroneous dialogue attributions and a consistent egregious misspelling of the name of a famous historical figure. This, from a primo big-name writer published by one of the most prominent publishing houses on the planet.

caw.

[Aconite]

And if you rely on such, you're probably already in trouble.
I did not say that you should rely on the copyeditor to catch your mistakes. I replied to JDM's comment that you research to the best of your ability and hope it will be enough, although it won't. The copyeditor is supposed to be one more chance to catch the inevitable mistakes, and most of them do a fairly good job, egregious exceptions notwithstanding.

[Celia Cyanide]

Things such as whether or not paramedics may treat people rudely really don't need research. As long as your paramedics are human, you can give them whatever personality you wish.

I have a nephew who's a paramedic. He's sometimes very rude, even though he's the nicest guy in the world outside the job. But when he's rude on the job, it's for a reason. He says rudeness is usually the best and quickest way to make people shut up, back off, and let you do your job, which is saving a life.

That may be the case, as far as rudeness is concerned. But one thing I forgot to mention is that my teacher told me that when he interviewed a paramedic, he was told that four of them come at once. "I thought there were only two," he said. "No, that's just on television," came the reply. But when they came to get me, there were only two. It may not seem important, but it's an example of a detail that a person in that field might think I got from television, when in fact, I got it from real life. It's also an example of something I would assume I don't need to research, because I actually experienced it. Does that make more sense?

[Avalon]

And that is why good publishers have copyeditors, bless them.

I'm a professional copyeditor, and when I do a job, it's not expected that I do any fact checking or research into content. I am required to make sure that everything is consistent -- not Green Lane in one chapter and Green Street in another. Even then, according to the "letter of the law," I shouldn't try to look it up but should only point out the inconsistency to the author.

Of course, I've done a lot of reading in my field, so I occasionally pick up on something that I think is probably wrong. I query it so the author can doublecheck.

I also tend to go above and beyond the frank job description. I don't look up the names of all historical figures mentioned (unless the spelling seems really funky to me), but I do some other research on occasion, just because I like things to be right. I have to be careful, though. Research takes time. If my output falls below a certain number of pages per hour, the publisher will be angry, and potentially won't use me again. They'd prefer me to stick to grammar and and spelling and overt inconstencies, doing as many pages of that as possible in an hour, and leave anything that can be construed as a content issue in the author's hands.

Sad, isn't it?

[Aconite]

Sad, isn't it?
It is.

I know at least one mystery writer who praised his copyeditor to the skies for catching that juniper is a shrub, not a tree; that Oslo was not a big city at the time of the novel's events; and that you "shoot," not "fire," an arrow. I would worship any copyeditor who did that for me. Worship, I tell you. Toe licking could be involved, or chocolate, according to preference.

[MadScientistMatt]

That may be the case, as far as rudeness is concerned. But one thing I forgot to mention is that my teacher told me that when he interviewed a paramedic, he was told that four of them come at once. "I thought there were only two," he said. "No, that's just on television," came the reply. But when they came to get me, there were only two. It may not seem important, but it's an example of a detail that a person in that field might think I got from television, when in fact, I got it from real life. It's also an example of something I would assume I don't need to research, because I actually experienced it. Does that make more sense?

Some things may depend on the circumstances and location. I'm trying to remember how many paramedics arrived one time when I called 911 after I'd accidentally stabbed myself with a box cutter. I seem to recall that three people showed up. The first was someone from the fire department who arrived in his own car, then two people showed up in an ambulance. I'll bet the number of paramedics and EMT's who show up may depend on local policy - and even places that normally send four may very well have days when they are shorthanded.

If you want to see a really amusing example of the sort of criticism an author can get for sticking in botched technical details, take a look at a bunch of car guys making fun of Dan Brown for confusing polycarbonate with polypropylene. (http://www.grmotorsports.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=12948&sid=34dbbac3792ef2bc99318d27834d6f04) Better to leave out unnecessary technical details than put in the wrong ones.

[zarch]

My WIP takes place in New Orleans during the Jazz Age...I consult a street map every couple of minutes and hope that the streets are the same as eighty years ago (which I doubt they are).

[JerseyGirl1962]

Interesting topic.

My earlier WIP, which I put aside recently (but will go back to) involved the 1970s and then a travel back in time to Los Angeles and San Francisco in 1942. Now, I grew up in the 70s (I was a teenager, so you figure out the math :tongue), so I have some knowledge of that decade, but I've still done a little research into fashions, sayings, etc., at that time (I certainly can't remember every last thing!).

As for the 1942 part - I managed to find (and buy cheaply) off Ebay an old map of San Francisco from the late 1930s (must be 1939, because it shows has an arrow pointing to the Golden Gate Bridge), and a street map of L.A. from the late 40s, also off Ebay. I did have one mistake about San Francisco (from 1941 to this day, no one can be buried in S.F. proper; they're buried in a town nearby - the name escapes me at the moment). I had to rewrite a few scenes because this was information was important to the story.

I've done other research as well, because the characters take a train out of California to Nevada...

In my current WIP, I decided against using the name of real town - I'm basing it on a real town nearby, but I'm using a made up name and made up names of streets. To save on research? Not necessarily; I love doing research, but I really want to write! I do mention a couple of nearby towns, so people who live in the area may get an idea of what town is the template.

However, I am doing some research on my current WIP because one of my characters is hooked on coke, and I wasn't sure if my scenes with her going through with withdrawal were realistic. I did some basic research, that's all. I'm now part of an online crit group, and once I start getting to those scenes (in the coming chapters), it's going to be interesting to see how good (or bad) those scenes are.

I'm not going to be surprised if a lot or most critters think they're either total make believe or wildly over the top - but I want to get an idea before I submit this to an agent or a publisher, in case there are questions (my guess is you never know what an editor might know...)

~Nancy

[PeeDee]

because so much of my current piece is fantastical, I'm trying to be careful to stay as solidly grounded in reality as I can, for the pieces where that's called for. The only iffy thing is, it starts out in a town just by me, and I didn't like transposing it directly into the story. The rest of the world I intend to, and I may shift this town into reality later on, but for now, it's a magical-mystery-town.

[reph]

...no one can be buried in S.F. proper; they're buried in a town nearby - the name escapes me at the moment.
Colma. That's the city full of cemeteries.

The rapid-transit tracks have been extended south from SF to Colma. Now, on some lines, when you board an SF-bound train, the operator intones "Our final destination is Colma." Yes, we know, we know.

On other matters: (1) In my experience, paramedics travel in pairs. (2) As Avalon said, copy editors aren't expected to check all your facts.

[Kasey Mackenzie]

Some things may depend on the circumstances and location. I'm trying to remember how many paramedics arrived one time when I called 911 after I'd accidentally stabbed myself with a box cutter. I seem to recall that three people showed up. The first was someone from the fire department who arrived in his own car, then two people showed up in an ambulance. I'll bet the number of paramedics and EMT's who show up may depend on local policy - and even places that normally send four may very well have days when they are shorthanded.

When my husband called 911 the first time I had a bout of anaphylactic shock (nasty, that, especially since so far it's ideopathic which means we don't know what causes it and it happened twice in less than a year), I believe that a police officer (maybe 2) showed up first, and then 2 paramedics arrived very shortly after that. We live in a rather large city and that's the only personal brush with paramedics we've had (so far) so I don't know if you can extrapolate anything from that. =)

[blacbird]

My WIP takes place in New Orleans during the Jazz Age...I consult a street map every couple of minutes and hope that the streets are the same as eighty years ago (which I doubt they are).

In New Orleans (I lived there back in the 1980s) I can almost guarantee they are. Nothing ever changed significantly in that city, until Katrina. And even on that, the jury's still out.

caw.

[JerseyGirl1962]

Colma. That's the city full of cemeteries.


Yes - that's it! :) Ack, :Smack: I knew it started with a "c."

The rapid-transit tracks have been extended south from SF to Colma. Now, on some lines, when you board an SF-bound train, the operator intones "Our final destination is Colma." Yes, we know, we know.


:roll:

~Nancy

[popmuze]

Interesting topic.

My earlier WIP, which I put aside recently (but will go back to) involved the 1970s and then a travel back in time to Los Angeles and San Francisco in 1942. Now, I grew up in the 70s (I was a teenager, so you figure out the math :tongue), so I have some knowledge of that decade, but I've still done a little research into fashions, sayings, etc., at that time (I certainly can't remember every last thing!).

As for the 1942 part - I managed to find (and buy cheaply) off Ebay an old map of San Francisco from the late 1930s (must be 1939, because it shows has an arrow pointing to the Golden Gate Bridge), and a street map of L.A. from the late 40s, also off Ebay. I did have one mistake about San Francisco (from 1941 to this day, no one can be buried in S.F. proper; they're buried in a town nearby - the name escapes me at the moment). I had to rewrite a few scenes because this was information was important to the story.

I've done other research as well, because the characters take a train out of California to Nevada...

In my current WIP, I decided against using the name of real town - I'm basing it on a real town nearby, but I'm using a made up name and made up names of streets. To save on research? Not necessarily; I love doing research, but I really want to write! I do mention a couple of nearby towns, so people who live in the area may get an idea of what town is the template.

However, I am doing some research on my current WIP because one of my characters is hooked on coke, and I wasn't sure if my scenes with her going through with withdrawal were realistic. I did some basic research, that's all. I'm now part of an online crit group, and once I start getting to those scenes (in the coming chapters), it's going to be interesting to see how good (or bad) those scenes are.

I'm not going to be surprised if a lot or most critters think they're either total make believe or wildly over the top - but I want to get an idea before I submit this to an agent or a publisher, in case there are questions (my guess is you never know what an editor might know...)

~Nancy

Speaking of San Francisco in the forties, I seem to recall that before Candlestick Park was built (It's going under another name now), there was a crossroads where a street named after my first name intersected with a street named after my last name. I always wanted to get ahold of those street signs.
But while you have your old map out, could you verify that there's actually a Bruce Street and a Pollock Avenue (or it could be vice versa). It would resolve an ancient obsession.

[zeprosnepsid]

This reminds me of one time I talked with a Star Trek writer who said that for a lot of the writers they'd just do this:

Picard: What was that?
LeForge: The [technical jargon] is broken. I think the [technical jargon] caused the [technical jargon] to overheat.

And then they had hardcore Trekkies whose job it was to supply the technical jargon. I always thought that was so funny.

Anyway, from being a freelance writer and occasionally getting facts wrong and then getting 100 angry e-mails I've always taken a similar approach. I always put in brackets anything I'm not 100% sure of. "[Meryl Streep] also starred in the [French Lieutenant's Woman]." 'Meryl Streep' because even though I think that's how I spell it, I'm not 100% sure. and 'French Lieutenant's Woman' because I think she starred in it but I haven't seen it in years so I'm no 100% sure.

I would say write your first draft and don't worry about the details. Make some kind of note of things you're not sure of. And do a fact check read through of the whole manuscript when it's finished. It's easier to catch things that way then to vaguely look for them whenever you're looking at the novel.

[Jamesaritchie]

That may be the case, as far as rudeness is concerned. But one thing I forgot to mention is that my teacher told me that when he interviewed a paramedic, he was told that four of them come at once. "I thought there were only two," he said. "No, that's just on television," came the reply. But when they came to get me, there were only two. It may not seem important, but it's an example of a detail that a person in that field might think I got from television, when in fact, I got it from real life. It's also an example of something I would assume I don't need to research, because I actually experienced it. Does that make more sense?

How many arrive depends entirely on where you are. If four paramedics arrived at once where I live, the city would then be completely out of paramedics, and any other call would go unanswered. The only way you get four paramedics here is if the call rates it. Shootings, car accidents, and heart attacks get four. Ordinary calls get two. Sometimes heart attacks and car accidents get only two. Sometimes serious calls get none.

The city where my nephew works is large than the one where I live, and most of their calls only get two paramedics, as well. Some cities, even some fairly large cities, can only afford a limited number of paramedics and associated equipment,

Details such as this are why they invented the telephone. I always call the police, or paramedics, or whoever I need to call, in any city I'm unfamiliar with befor eputting teh information in a story.

And, of course, if you write "The paramedics arrived at ten-fifteen. They pronnounced John Doe exactly eight minutes later," it doesn't matter whether or not two or four or eight arrive. You didn't say how many arrived, so your bases are covered.

[Celia Cyanide]

"[Meryl Streep] also starred in the [French Lieutenant's Woman]." 'Meryl Streep' because even though I think that's how I spell it, I'm not 100% sure. and 'French Lieutenant's Woman' because I think she starred in it but I haven't seen it in years so I'm no 100% sure.

You are corrent on both counts, FYI :)

[Celia Cyanide]

How many arrive depends entirely on where you are. If four paramedics arrived at once where I live, the city would then be completely out of paramedics, and any other call would go unanswered.

Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, I am not writing anything about paramedics. I just used it as an example of an interviewee who described something different than was my experience, and something I had experience with that I would not have thought to interview anyone about.

[JerseyGirl1962]

Speaking of San Francisco in the forties, I seem to recall that before Candlestick Park was built (It's going under another name now), there was a crossroads where a street named after my first name intersected with a street named after my last name. I always wanted to get ahold of those street signs.

But while you have your old map out, could you verify that there's actually a Bruce Street and a Pollock Avenue (or it could be vice versa). It would resolve an ancient obsession.

Popmuze,

I actually wrote that from work - my map is at home! What I can do is when I get home later tonight, I'll look it up for you.

Speaking of maps, it was *because* of that map that my hubby got the idea to take a vacation to SF this year - which we did! Although that story is in a different era, it was nice to go there and get a feel for it anyway. (And we had an absolute blast there - SF is a wonderful city!)

BTW, I believe Candlestick is now Monster Park (for the jobs website, monster.com).

~Nancy

[JerseyGirl1962]

Speaking of San Francisco in the forties, I seem to recall that before Candlestick Park was built (It's going under another name now), there was a crossroads where a street named after my first name intersected with a street named after my last name. I always wanted to get ahold of those street signs.
But while you have your old map out, could you verify that there's actually a Bruce Street and a Pollock Avenue (or it could be vice versa). It would resolve an ancient obsession.

Popmuze,

I just checked the map, asking my hubby about where Candle, er, Monster Park would be. It might be at a site called Bay View Park. I don't see any streets named either Bruce or Pollack, but that doesn't necessarily mean those streets aren't there - some of the street names are so tiny, I can't even read them. And there isn't a listing of street names, alas.

Sorry I can't help you out, unless I remember one day to pick up a magnifying glass.

~Nancy

[reph]

My 1972 map shows a Bruce Ave. in the wrong part of town, near City College, far from what was then Candlestick Park. There's no Pollock anything.

[cwfgal]

And, of course, if you write "The paramedics arrived at ten-fifteen. They pronnounced John Doe exactly eight minutes later," it doesn't matter whether or not two or four or eight arrive. You didn't say how many arrived, so your bases are covered.

Not necessarily. Many towns and cities don't have paramedics, they have EMTs. And depending on where a story is taking place, they may not be able to legally pronounce death.

There are any number of little details a writer can get wrong, particularly if he or she isn't intimately familiar with the subject matter. It's going to happen sooner or later no matter how much research you do. Often it will be things you don't know you don't know.

Beth

[Jamesaritchie]

Not necessarily. Many towns and cities don't have paramedics, they have EMTs. And depending on where a story is taking place, they may not be able to legally pronounce death.

There are any number of little details a writer can get wrong, particularly if he or she isn't intimately familiar with the subject matter. It's going to happen sooner or later no matter how much research you do. Often it will be things you don't know you don't know.

Beth



Sure, we have EMTs here, as well as paramedics. But I was talking numbers, not types. Getting such details right means you must make a phone call or two to any city you don't live in.

A phone call or two makes sure you get all the details right. I nearly always make several. I always read newspapers from the town or city, get maps, a telephone book, a travel guide, and when necessary, talk to the police, the tourist board, if there is one, a couple of bar owners, taxi company, a hospital, etc.

If I reach a place in a story where I don't know the answer, and can't find it quickly online, I pick up the phone.

Some little things may get past your research, but if you use the phone it greatly reduces the chances, and it means no large ones will slip through, and you'll certainly get things like street names correct.

I think the key to good research is "If you don't know and can't find out, call someone who does know." There's always someone who knows, and who will be more than willing to talk to you about it.

[popmuze]

Hey, Bruce Ave is a start!
Wonder how far it stretches. Maybe it heads toward the Candlestick area, where Pollock St. would have been demolished in 1955.
Anyway, it is a completely useless quest.
Unless I somehow turn it into a symbol for my next novel.