What is the Point of Kindle/eBooks?

[FranOnTheEdge]

E-Books & Kindle seems to be taking over the world, now back when it first came out I heard that Amazon could take your books away from you if the publisher went bust.

Not something that can happen with a paperback or hardback.
Not unless they jimmy the door and filtch them from your bookshelves.

I've seen their current advert - can't avoid it, unfortunately - and the very idea of reading on any kind of screen makes me cringe, I get enough headaches from the PC, thanks.

I hate not being able to flick through pages.

I'd hate something like that to hit me in the eye as I begin to drop off to sleep - and how the heck would you have two or three books open at once to refer back and forth?

And how can you put little coloured sticky notes on various pages?

The screen may be big compared to other handheld devices, but compared to a book it's tiny. In order to get even a paperback's page content onto one screen, you'd need the text to be too small for me to read it.

....I have a really nasty feeling that this is going to be the inevitable future that I will go to my grave being the grumpy old woman grumbling about.

.... however I can also see a point in the future where my own work finally makes it to publication only to find that it's on Kindle only....

No, I haven't got one, so probably eveything I've said is just rubbish, but I've vented some angst, so that's good.

ggg

What do you think?

Is the future already here?

Are books doomed?

[mccardey]

I have a love/hate relationship with my kindle. I travel a lot, and it's terrific to be able to pack a kindle full of books. On the other hand, when I really, really love a book, I bite it. (Yeah, I know, Doctor. I don't know why. Since I was about four years old...) And I'm here to tell you that biting a kindle is singularly unrewarding.

[Alwaysinspired]

I didn't like the Kindle, so I bought a Nook Color. I absolutely love it. While I do love holding a book in my hands, I realized that eBooks are indeed taking over the world and I needed to get with the program. The fact that I can download a book from B&N from the comfort of my home and have that book arrive instantly amazes me. I also live in a small home and was running out of space for traditional books. I still buy them occasionally, but not like I used to.

[mirandashell]

Can you back up what is on your Kindle/ebook? Computers always break at some point.

[BenPanced]

Barnes & Noble keeps your library online so you can download items anytime you need to. I had to do a system reload on my nook once and after reinstalling the system software and rebooting, it automatically went out to my B&N account through its wi-fi connection and pulled everything back in.

[mirandashell]

And what if B&N go bust?

[Perks]

On the other hand, when I really, really love a book, I bite it. (Yeah, I know, Doctor. I don't know why. Since I was about four years old...) I have the same inclination with really cute things - babies, puppies, hamsters...

I resist, but I'm not sure that erases the evil of the urge and nets out to my being a decent human being.




As for ebooks, I absolutely love my Nook ereader. The e-ink is nothing like reading on a computer and my favorite part is that if I hear of a good book, I can buy it instantly - no remembering required. I can also download samples to browse before buying so it's like having a bookstore in my purse.

Still love bookstores and paper books, but my Nook is one of my prized possessions.

[kuwisdelu]

Can you back up what is on your Kindle/ebook? Computers always break at some point.

I don't have a Kindle, but I read using iBooks on my iPad. Anytime I buy anything on the iPad, it's also automatically downloaded to my laptop and iPhone.

My only problem with ebooks remains the DRM and the Amazon vs. ePub format wars.

[DancingMaenid]

I have a Kindle and really like it. I don't like it as well as reading from a physical book, but it does have its uses. For me, the big advantage is space. I have limited room right now, and would have run out of space by now if I only bought physical books.

Selection is a huge advantage. The Kindle allows me to buy short stories, novellas, and anthologies that wouldn't be sold in bookstores near me, and that sometimes aren't even released as physical books at all. I like that ebooks have made novellas more marketable.


I've seen their current advert - can't avoid it, unfortunately - and the very idea of reading on any kind of screen makes me cringe, I get enough headaches from the PC, thanks.

The Kindle uses "e-paper" technology that is supposed to be easier on the eyes and more akin to reading actual paper, so it's not exactly like reading on a PC.

Nothing wrong with not wanting to read off a screen, though. That's perfectly understandable.

I'd hate something like that to hit me in the eye as I begin to drop off to sleep - and how the heck would you have two or three books open at once to refer back and forth?

Your first point is a disadvantage for me. I don't want to fall asleep with my Kindle since I don't want to damage it or have my cat do something to it while I sleep. I don't usually fall asleep while reading, though, so taking a moment to put my Kindle in my nightstand drawer isn't a huge deal.

And how can you put little coloured sticky notes on various pages?

I believe you can make notes and place digital bookmarks on the Kindle. You can also highlight things, I think. I haven't done this myself, though.

The screen may be big compared to other handheld devices, but compared to a book it's tiny. In order to get even a paperback's page content onto one screen, you'd need the text to be too small for me to read it.

I haven't really found this to be a disadvantage, or noticed much of a difference when it comes to most things. The only problem I have is that since there aren't page numbers and those numbers won't match up to a physical copy, it's hard to use ebooks for school.

I don't think books are doomed anytime too soon. As for the Kindle, it's a tool, not a replacement. It, like all e-readers, has its disadvantages. But it also has advantages. There are still books where I'll prefer to get a physical copy, but for other things, the Kindle has served me well.

I remember when the iPod came out. I didn't see any reason to get one when I had my CDs. Then I got one, and now I find my digital music collection much more enjoyable and practical. Sometimes your feelings change.

I don't think ebooks are the same, in that I don't think they'll replace physical books very soon. There are still too many advantages to paper copies. But ebooks can be handy.

For example, I love that my Kindle comes with dictionaries. Those books are huge and heavy. My Kindle is light, and I can search for the word I want.

ETA: As for the backing up thing, I've had no problem keeping my Kindle ebooks saved on my computer. I don't connect my Kindle via wi-fi; I use the USB cable, which requires me to have my purchases saved on my computer.

[mirandashell]

What if you don't have a laptop or an iPhone?

Can you back it yourself onto a seperate flipdesk?

[Perks]

What if you don't have a laptop or an iPhone?

Can you back it yourself onto a seperate flipdesk?Not with a Nook. All your purchases are backed up with them, but I suppose if they went out of business, I have no idea what would happen to my digital library.

[kuwisdelu]

What if you don't have a laptop or an iPhone?

Can you back it yourself onto a seperate flipdesk?

With iBooks and the iBookstore at least, if you have any kind of computer running iTunes, you can backup to that computer, and from there copy the files to a flash drive or whatever. I doubt Apple will be going out of business anytime soon, though, so I'm fine with the iCloud for my own purposes.

As always, the problem is the DRM. Anything from iBooks can only be read in iBooks, anything from Amazon can only be read on Kindle software, anything from B&N only on Nook software, etc.

[mirandashell]

Hmmmm... that does put me off getting one. When you have a book, you know it's on the shelf and it's yours. You're not dependent on someone else holding it for you.

[kuwisdelu]

Hmmmm... that does put me off getting one. When you have a book, you know it's on the shelf and it's yours. You're not dependent on someone else holding it for you.

As far as that goes, I'd worry more over DRM than backup options.

[Soccer Mom]

I love my Kindle. Just checked it and I have 375 ebooks on it. That's a whole library on one little device. And they dont automatically take your books if a publisher goes under. I have stuff from the now defunct Aspen Mountain Press and it's still on my reader.

The text isn't tiny. You can size it however you want which is a win for me. I don't see well and make my text the size of a large print book but without a giant, expensive book to carry around.

If you don't want one, don't get one. They still make print books. I think you're panicking over nothing.

[mirandashell]

Yeah, I see what you mean.

But we had the same thing with computers, didn't we?

I guess it will work itself out eventually.

[mirandashell]

If you don't want one, don't get one. They still make print books. I think you're panicking over nothing.

Who says I'm panicking? Bit rude.


I'm just asking a question. I question all new products before I buy one. Just to make sure I'm making an informed decision.

That's normally considered an intelligent action.

Obviously, in your case it's not.

Edit: Just realised you might be speaking to the OP and not me. Soccer Mom, it's always a good idea to quote the bit you're answering.

And yeah, it was still a little bit rude......

[mirandashell]

I'm off to bed. Thanks for the advice, everyone.

[Matera the Mad]

Screen reading can be made much more bearable by using decent fonts and zooming webpages or docs to a comfortable font size. If width of window can be changed to shorten line length, that helps a lot. Your browser will let you specify what font is default and whether or not web pages can go against your wishes. And you can adjust brightness and contrast settings of your monitor to east eyestrain. PDF is often impossible, only extracting the text can make most of them readable. Reading ebooks on a computer usually sucks. E-readers have a different kind of screen, not so glary.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm in the market for a Kindle, and will be soon and when it comes to ebook format, yep, you guessed it -- I mostly read smut.

I buy from AllRomance or direct from the publishers which means I have a copy of the ebook saved on my computer. Easy to copy from that onto the ereader.

But, if I were to buy a book directly from Amazon.co.uk and have it sent to my Kindle, could I then copy the file from my Kindle to my computer, as a back up?

[Alessandra Kelley]

Ebooks so far make lousy art books. Those aren't going away without major improvements in ebook tech.

--Alessandra, who is a crummy visual arts bigot

[Jersey Chick]

I just ordered a basic Kindle. It's my first foray into e-reader territory. I don't know how I'll like it vs print books, but I decided I needed one when I spent half a day at the car dealership and finished my book with another 2 hours left to wait. I got a few weird looks when I just flipped back to the beginning of the book and started re-reading (it was our own Stacia Kane's City of Ghosts, :D)

I had a bunch of ebooks on my old laptop and lost them when it died. **sigh**. :(

[Sarah Madara]

I prefer paper books in general, especially now that Kindle prices are not much better in some cases. However, I love my Kindle because I am in love with the sample feature. I almost never buy a book without downloading a sample to my Kindle first. Especially with the romances and UF I read, I have pretty specific tastes and the Kindle lets me sample different authors and find the ones I want to read with a few clicks on my computer. LOVE LOVE LOVE the samples.

I do not find notes on the Kindle convenient to enter, and I hate "flipping" through pages - it is very, very slow compared to paper. Also, I have a sort of visual memory, where if I remember a good line in a book I can usually find it just by flipping pages and I'll recognize the right page when I get to it. No similar experience on Kindle. I have to use search feature, which often gives too many hits or takes too long to process.

[PeteDutcher]

What if you don't have a laptop or an iPhone?

Can you back it yourself onto a seperate flipdesk?

If you mean can you backup your books, the answer is yes on a nook. It takes a 32 gb memory card...and you can always switch out cards to store more.

Kindle ONLY backs up to the Cloud...and to your PC I think.

I prefer Nook for one reason...Kindle does not take a MicroSD card to expand memory. You can only back up to the cloud (online) for free IF you purchased from Amazon.

And I already have 4,000 books in my collection.

[PeteDutcher]

I prefer paper books in general, especially now that Kindle prices are not much better in some cases. However, I love my Kindle because I am in love with the sample feature. I almost never buy a book without downloading a sample to my Kindle first. Especially with the romances and UF I read, I have pretty specific tastes and the Kindle lets me sample different authors and find the ones I want to read with a few clicks on my computer. LOVE LOVE LOVE the samples.

I do not find notes on the Kindle convenient to enter, and I hate "flipping" through pages - it is very, very slow compared to paper. Also, I have a sort of visual memory, where if I remember a good line in a book I can usually find it just by flipping pages and I'll recognize the right page when I get to it. No similar experience on Kindle. I have to use search feature, which often gives too many hits or takes too long to process.

I (think) Nook lets you highlight text and attach notes to it.

[scarletpeaches]

Before my Sony ereader went tits-up I used to read a lot of novellas on it. Those took me just a few hours. I called it research, given the genre in which I write. :D

You get a lot of free books with ereaders these days -- Bronte, Dickens, Austen, Shakespeare and so on; all the obvious ones. But I still order print copies of those off Amazon because longer books mean there will be more chance of me wanting to flip back and check something and as has been mentioned, this takes an age on an ereader.

And it uses battery charge.

[Sarah Madara]

I (think) Nook lets you highlight text and attach notes to it.
Kindle does, too, but I find it a pain. Also, I often don't know that I'll want to find a line or scene again until something else comes up later. I like to flip through real pages. It's just much, much easier for me.

[thothguard51]

Hmmmm... that does put me off getting one. When you have a book, you know it's on the shelf and it's yours. You're not dependent on someone else holding it for you.

Scenario...

You wake up, smell smoke, discover your house is on fire. Will you save your books, (after the children and pets of course.)

With a e-reader, even if its lost in the fire, you can get another and all your books are stored in a cloud from B&N, Kindle, or Amazon. You do not have to repurchase your own paper libray.

[cbenoi1]

> could I then copy the file from my Kindle to my computer, as a back up?

Backups seems to be a recurring question.


I have a Kobo eReader, which is based on Adobe's Digital Edition (a stripped down version of Adobe Reader with eBook DRM) as its software core. It also sports an integrated SD card reader.

Main memory (DRM'd books)

The books I paid from Kobobooks (eq. to Amazon) are stored on the Kobo's main memory, which is managed through Adobe's DRM. Should I lose my eReader or should it break for some reason, then I have to deauthorize the device and re-authorize the newer one. The DRM'd books get uploaded on the next sync. So I don't have to backup anything. My risk here is if Kobobooks goes belly up...

SD Card (DRM-free books & PDF documents)

The ePub books I have, which don't have any DRM attached, are put on an SD Card. The Kobo recognizes those books and documents and show them like any other book. But I have to make sure I have a copy of that SD card somewhere. Adobe's DRM won't sync that. So all the non-DRM books I want on my Kobo are put on the SD card first, then I put the card into the Kobo. This is a PC -> eReader thing, so the backup is performed on the PC. Should I lose the eReader or the SD card fails, then everything I have was already on my PC to begin with.

I don't know how Kindle manages its books, but I suspect its DRM works pretty much the same way.

ETA: The way the Kobo / Kobobooks / Adobe DE works in my case, is that I also have a license for two more devices (three in total). So I can also read the DRM books on - say - an Android-based phone and an iPad, as well as the Kobo eReader.

-cb

[Sarah Madara]

If one were truly concerned about an e-book seller removing the content from the cloud or the device, one could conceivably use a program like calibre and some associated drm-removing scripts to back up one's books in alternate formats. Were one not *too* concerned about the legalities, of course.

[scarletpeaches]

I have heard tell of such nefarious deeds, but my question was regarding having books sent from Amazon, through Wi-Fi, directly to your ereader.

Can you then copy the book from the Kindle to your computer as a back-up? If you plug it in to your computer, does the book show as a transferable file on the "external drive", i.e., your ereader?

[Sarah Madara]

I have heard tell of such nefarious deeds, but my question was regarding having books sent from Amazon, through Wi-Fi, directly to your ereader.

Can you then copy the book from the Kindle to your computer as a back-up? If you plug it in to your computer, does the book show as a transferable file on the "external drive", i.e., your ereader?

Yes.

[scarletpeaches]

Spanking.

Right. A Kindle it is, then. Seems obvious to me; copy everything over to your computer for extra back-up, and screw Sony up the wazoo for their crappy customer services. :D

I assume there'd be a problem reading DRM books on another Kindle, but I only buy DRM-free smut anyway. Everything else? Print.

[Al Stevens]

You can add notes, highlight text, and set bookmarks.

You can copy files from your Kindle to your hard disk and back.

You can read a book you've purchased once on multiple devices that you have registered with amazon, including iPad, iPhone, Mac, and your PCs.

Your archives are available to you on all your amazon-registered devices.

If you have an epub file, you can convert it to the kindle format with free software.

DRM is treacherous territory. I don't know another way they could have done it, though.

[Al Stevens]

I assume there'd be a problem reading DRM books on another Kindle, but I only buy DRM-free smut anyway. Everything else? Print.If you have two Kindles, registered under your account, the DRM files are shared. You can also digitally lend some books to friends.

[Amadan]

DRM is treacherous territory. I don't know another way they could have done it, though.


By giving up on DRM, which more and more authors and publishers are doing.

If one were to be interested in removing DRM from your legally-purchased ebooks and thereby guaranteeing that your legally-purchased ebooks will be available from now until the end of time (or the end of the Internet, at least) without worrying about the lifespan of any publisher, manufacturer, or cloud hosting service, one could very easily find the means to do so with Google.

All of my legally-purchased ebooks are DRM-free about ten seconds after I download them.

Note: I'm not sure about laws in other countries, but in the U.S., it's not illegal to strip DRM from your legally-purchased ebooks for personal use. It may be a violation of the publisher's TOS (the same way you don't technically "own" any software you buy, you just buy a license to use it), but they can't actually do anything to you unless you distribute DRM-stripped files.

[Becky Black]

I have heard tell of such nefarious deeds, but my question was regarding having books sent from Amazon, through Wi-Fi, directly to your ereader.

Can you then copy the book from the Kindle to your computer as a back-up? If you plug it in to your computer, does the book show as a transferable file on the "external drive", i.e., your ereader?

Yes. The Kindle comes with USB cable supplied and you just plug it in and it mounts. Documents are all in one big folder on the Kindle, so you can just copy over that entire folder to your PC. Or you can go and copy specific files for that book. They have sensible names, so you can find them okay. You can also copy from your PC, say compatible format books you got from places other than Amazon, and you can also put on personal documents. PDFs and text documents can just be copied over without any kind of conversion in between. It's dead easy. One of the Kindle's big selling points is how easy it is to manage. Even my Dad hasn't managed to screw his up yet and that's saying something.

[Becky Black]

The main point of an ereader for me is that if I didn't have one then many of the books in my genre just wouldn't be available to me. Some of them I might be able to get with print on demand, or by importing, but at an inflated price for a paperback compared to a paperback I could buy in a shop.

This gives small presses a long reach. People all over the world can access books from a small press which couldn't possibly afford to distribute paper books internationally.

They keep books available that would otherwise have disappeared and only been possible to find second hand.

They're good for writers in that they give them longer to build up a readership, freeing them from the need to make it in six months or whatever before the book stores stop stocking the books.

My paper book collection had reached a "one in, one out" stage. There's no more room for more bookshelves, never mind room ON my bookshelves. There's certainly not room to add another hundred or so books to my house every year.

Large print books for the visually impaired are expensive and the range is restricted. With Kindle someone with bad eyesight has access to the same books as everyone else, and doesn't pay any more for them. I don't have to read large print books, but even with only minor short-sightedness so far I appreciate the ability to tweak the font and spacing to what's compfortable for me.

I haven't stopped buying paper books, by any means. Some books are things of beauty in themselves that I want to own for those qualities as much as for the content. But for most fiction then what matters is the text and the Kindle gives me that just fine and once I'm into the story it makes no difference to me that I'm reading on a screen, or pressing a button instead of flipping a page.

The range of books available is fantastic. Okay, so you can order books at a book store if they're not on a shelf. But how, at a book store, could you, for example, compare samples of several different translations of a foreign language book, to see which one you prefer? They've probably only got one version of the book, so that's the translation you're lumbered with.

[Christine N.]

I have the Fire. It's not eink, so if you hate screen reading it might not be for you. I love it. Not just books, but apps, internet, email, and a small office program if the writing mood strikes, though I'm not convinced I'd love typing on it for any period of time. Pandora radio even!

You can book mark and highlight, and while your library is saved in the cloud, you need to download any book you want to read to the device. But it can be removed to save storage. I also have Kindle on my netbook, so I COULD download it to my Netbook and save it there, in case I was away from the internet and needed to transfer a book to the Fire.

I have also emailed docs to the device, like lecture notes from grad school. THAT is handy. You can read any .pdf or doc on it, and it's a simple matter to increase the font size if it looks small.

[mirandashell]

Hmmm... interesting stuff.

I'm coming around to the idea. It's just that I love paper books. I love to curl up in bed with a book. It helps me sleep.

I guess I need to actually hold and try out an ereader before I make my mind up.

[CobraMisfit]

I prefer paper books and hardbacks, however a couple years ago I found myself traveling a lot. My wife got me a Kindle 3G and it's been a boon companion. It's great for the daily bus commute to the office or for domestic/international travel.

One of the features that I came to love was the "experimental" web browser. Thanks to Amaz0n's Whispernet, I was able to surf the Interwebz for free on any 3G signal in any country. During a two week stint in Brazil earlier this year, my co-workers were spending $50 a day on hotel internet while I was able to surf for free. The capabilities were extremely limited and the web-browsing was clunky, but it worked in a pinch. It'd be like buying a Porsche that can make waffles. Sure it can do it, but is that what it's really designed to do?

That said, if I'm not traveling or commuting, my go-to is still a tangible book. But the e-reader certainly has appeal and it's come in handy more times than I can count.

My two coppers.

[scarletpeaches]

My Sony had 'collections' which I divided up into folders for Loose Id, Total-e-Bound, Samhain and other publishers.

Is it true there's no folders/collections function on the Kindle? That's not entirely necessary but due to the fact I have hundreds of ebooks, it was a way of organising my smut.

[Al Stevens]

True, SP, Kindle did not implement folders in their original e-readers and archives. I don't know about the newer ones. They'll have to eventually. It was a common complaint.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm anal enough to keep a catalogue of my print books in MS Word, colour-coded as to which I've read, and which not, so I can easily do the same with my ebooks. Just to keep a record of "Whut smut?" :D

[Al Stevens]

All of my legally-purchased ebooks are DRM-free about ten seconds after I download them.

Which of the DRM removal procedures did you choose?

[Amadan]

Which of the DRM removal procedures did you choose?

The python script and calibre plug-in from Apprentice Alf's blog.

[Al Stevens]

I'm anal enough to keep a catalogue of my print books in MS Word, colour-coded as to which I've read, and which not, so I can easily do the same with my ebooks. Just to keep a record of "Whut smut?" :D
You can also delete a book you've read from the Kindle. Amazon puts it into your archives, which are accessible any time. I guess that's a kind of a folder.

[Sarah Madara]

My 2nd gen Kindle does have folders ("collections"). There is only one level. You cannot create sub-folders. However, I think you can add a book to multiple collections - so it's more of a tag than a folder.

Archived items is useful for the smut if you want to let your mother look at your kindle, since "Archived" always shows up at the very bottom of the list.

[Al Stevens]

The python script and calibre plug-in from Apprentice Alf's blog.
Thanks. I didn't know about that one. I was using command line python scripts, which is a pita. This way is seamless.

[veinglory]

Some people like ebooks and find ways to do all the things they want to do with them. I don't see a reason for getting upset about other people using a format you don't happen to want to use. Thats like saying chocolate cake should even be on the menu because you don't happen to like chocolate.

[DragonHeart]

I love my Nook. Honestly as soon as I got it I lost any desire whatsoever to read print books, though I still have plenty for collector/display purposes. And textbooks, of course. Being able to carry an entire library around with me is a huge advantage, especially considering my reading speed. Not to mention how much lighter it is. ;) I use it for personal reading and also schoolwork, as it's a lot easier to throw PDFs on the Nook and bring it with me than it is to read them off the computer, where I have so many other distractions.

I actually ended up buying my mom one for Christmas last year and she loves it. She has rheumatoid arthritis so holding something like a large hardcover can be difficult at times. The Nook is so light it doesn't bother her to use it for an extended period of time. And yes, she does make the font bigger so she can see it too. :D She especially loves it for her doctor's appointments, she has to get her medication through an IV once a month so it gives her something to do.

For me the main plus I get out of it is convenience. The nearest brick-and-mortar bookstore is twenty minutes away on a good day and I rarely have time to drive over there, especially if I don't have any particular book in mind. It's so much easier for me to throw a bunch of recommended book samples on the Nook and pick one, read the sample and if I like it download it in less than two minutes.

I'd say it's worth checking out before you dismiss ereaders out of hand. Research the different brands and models, go to a store and look at them, play with them, see how they feel in your hand. Maybe you still won't want one, maybe you'll say, hey this isn't so bad after all. My mom wasn't interested at all until she saw mine and I let her play with it a bit, now she's a total convert lol.

I picked the Nook over the Kindle in particular after doing quite a bit of research on things like batteries, backups, file formats, etc. I did not go into the store to look at once (mine's a launch model anyway) and I wish I had because the Nook was a bit bigger than what I thought, but it worked out just fine. There are a few operational things I don't like about it that will hopefully be changed in a future update but overall I am extremely satisfied with what I got.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm thinking of buying the latest Kindle -- WiFi, on-screen keyboard, smaller memory than the Kindle Keyboard. They're £89 here, so I should have the money saved soon.

Collections would have been nice, but not essential. I just hope Amazon's customer aftercare is better than Sony's!

[DragonHeart]

I will say one major advantage the Nook has over the Kindle is that the Nook uses the .epub format. Kindle has its own. This means that you can buy say, a novella from Ellora's Cave or download from Project Gutenberg in its .epub format and upload it to the Nook straight away. I don't know if this has changed with newer models but on the original Kindle you couldn't do that, you had to convert your .epub book to their proprietary format first.

[Jersey Chick]

We bought my FIL a Kindle for Christmas last year. About 2 weeks ago, he started having trouble with the connector on it. Amazon shipped him a new one right away (it was still under the warranty) w/out any hassle.

[Al Stevens]

The new $79 Kindle marks the beginning of price drops on e-readers, I hope. I like the size. Fits into my jeans pocket.

[mirandashell]

So is it the size of your average paperback but thinner?

[Medievalist]

What if you don't have a laptop or an iPhone?

Can you back it yourself onto a seperate flipdesk?

Yes.

[mirandashell]

Ah cool! Glad to hear that. I've had enough puters die on me not to trust them.

[kuwisdelu]

Ah cool! Glad to hear that. I've had enough puters die on me not to trust them.

Have you considered investing in an external?

[Medievalist]

Do check reading on the screen of any device you buy.

I note that for some of us--like me--eInk doesn't really work. I can't see the edges of the letters.

As much as many people can't abide a back-lit lcd screen, the iPad was a much better option for me. I also like that I can read pretty much any kind of document or ebook format on it. And I can locally backup or backup to the iCloud, or Strongspace, or DropBox or SugarSync or email . . .

But whatever you pick, absolutely hold one in your hands before buying.

[kuwisdelu]

As much as many people can't abide a back-lit lcd screen, the iPad was a much better option for me. I also like that I can read pretty much any kind of document or ebook format on it. And I can locally backup or backup to the iCloud, or Strongspace, or DropBox or SugarSync or email . . .

I do like that page turning in iBooks, too. The large size is much better for PDFs as well.

The Nook Tablet also looks pretty damn nice to me as a cheaper option.

[mirandashell]

Have you considered investing in an external?


Yep. Everything important is backed onto something else. Some of it twice.

[mirandashell]

Med - I'm definitely going to try out all the ebooks if I decide to buy one. My sister has just had a Kindle so I'll try hers out and ask what she thinks. And I'll try the others in a shop.

I've also been waiting for the price to come down. Like most electronics, they were overpriced when they first come out.

[Becky Black]

The newer Kindles have "collections" to get your books off the front screen. They're actually more like tags than folders, as you can add a book to more than one collection. Like Scarlet's ones for the different publishers, but you could also tag it with something like "Sci-Fi" and "M/M" (said she as an entirely random example) and cross reference things that way.

[scarletpeaches]

I will say one major advantage the Nook has over the Kindle is that the Nook uses the .epub format. Kindle has its own. This means that you can buy say, a novella from Ellora's Cave or download from Project Gutenberg in its .epub format and upload it to the Nook straight away. I don't know if this has changed with newer models but on the original Kindle you couldn't do that, you had to convert your .epub book to their proprietary format first.Um...yeah. Or you could just buy it in a Kindle-compatible format in the first place.The new $79 Kindle marks the beginning of price drops on e-readers, I hope. I like the size. Fits into my jeans pocket.It always makes me laugh when Americans (I assume you are, due to mentioning dollars) grump about the price of things. I'd love to pay $79 for an ereader. Try £89 for a Kindle, though.

[Brindle Chase]

It always makes me laugh when Americans (I assume you are, due to mentioning dollars) grump about the price of things. I'd love to pay $79 for an ereader. Try £89 for a Kindle, though.


*lol* The funnier thing is about us Americans is if Amazon gave away the kindle for free, most of us would still bitch about it... like, ohmigod, is that all the bigger the screen is? This sucks, I want the font to glow red! What a piece of sh*t... it only reads ebooks??? Why can't I play Call of Duty on this slab of junk... etc... etc...

[Al Stevens]

It always makes me laugh when Americans (I assume you are, due to mentioning dollars) grump about the price of things. I'd love to pay $79 for an ereader. Try £89 for a Kindle, though.
I wasn't grumping. I was being glad. "You want grump? I'll give you grump..."

[Al Stevens]

*lol* The funnier thing is about us Americans is ...
Brindle posting on a Kindle thread. I feel a limerick coming on.

[scarletpeaches]

There once was a man called Brindle,
who wrote books which were read on a Kindle.
Around seventy-six
included nude pix
Which soon caused his sales to dwindle.

Ba-doom TISH! :D Rep points welcome, I'm here all week. Try the veal!

[Brindle Chase]

*cringe*

[kuwisdelu]

Um...yeah. Or you could just buy it in a Kindle-compatible format in the first place.

I'd be happier if everyone settled on DRM-less ePub rather than Amazon's format. I have little faith that Amazon will force the publishers' hands into going DRM-less, so I shan't be supporting them.

It always makes me laugh when Americans (I assume you are, due to mentioning dollars) grump about the price of things. I'd love to pay $79 for an ereader. Try £89 for a Kindle, though.

I'm not sure about the eInk models, but they're selling the Fire at least at a loss with the idea being to make it up on content sales.

[scarletpeaches]

A Kindle doesn't just read mobi or prc (I think it's called). It also reads pdf files and rtf, I think.

[kuwisdelu]

A Kindle doesn't just read mobi or prc (I think it's called). It also reads pdf files and rtf, I think.

What does that have to do with reading .epub?

And yes, yes I am also upset with Google's attempts to supplant H.264 with WebM.

It just makes for a messy digital world.

[scarletpeaches]

Oh, wait. You were using epub as an abbreviation for epublishing? I thought you meant .epub files.

[kuwisdelu]

Oh, wait. You were using epub as an abbreviation for epublishing? I thought you meant .epub files.

Huh? I did mean .epub files. Can Kindle software read .epub now?

[Cliff Face]

I don't know enough about ebooks to talk about DRM and file formats...

However, I am considering getting a Kindle soon. One thing that bothered me in this thread is that with Kindle, I can only buy books supported by Amazon... Not B&N or anything else.

So basically... What happens if I throw myself into a genre with reading abandon, hear about this great book, and then it's only available on B&N, not Amazon? And what if the print book isn't available in Australia?

I mention this because the main main reason I want an ereader is for AWers' books. A very large portion of them aren't available in Australia in print, which sucks, but what can I do about it? Download the ebooks, or order the print books online from America/UK/Canada I suppose.

Now, I do love print books, but I am aware of the advantages of an ereader, which is why I'm asking this question before I blindly go out and purchase a Kindle. (The Nook isn't even available in Australia, as far as I know.)

Thoughts?

[kuwisdelu]

I don't know enough about ebooks to talk about DRM and file formats...

However, I am considering getting a Kindle soon. One thing that bothered me in this thread is that with Kindle, I can only buy books supported by Amazon... Not B&N or anything else.

So basically... What happens if I throw myself into a genre with reading abandon, hear about this great book, and then it's only available on B&N, not Amazon? And what if the print book isn't available in Australia?

I mention this because the main main reason I want an ereader is for AWers' books. A very large portion of them aren't available in Australia in print, which sucks, but what can I do about it? Download the ebooks, or order the print books online from America/UK/Canada I suppose.

Now, I do love print books, but I am aware of the advantages of an ereader, which is why I'm asking this question before I blindly go out and purchase a Kindle. (The Nook isn't even available in Australia, as far as I know.)

Thoughts?

If you don't mind reading on an LCD screen, you can try to find a cheap Android tablet on which you can download both the Kindle and Nook apps. An iPad would also work, of course, and would also give access to iBooks.

It's *possible* to buy the book from B&N and read it on a Kindle, but you'll have to remove the DRM and convert it to .mobi format, which may to may not be a trivial task depending on your tech-savviness.

[Cliff Face]

Android tablet with apps, huh?

Don't know anything about them. Isn't Android what the Smart Phones use? I've never used that...

Basically, the big points for me are access to the largest number of books (whatever course I need to take) plus a decent screen and an actual keyboard on the bottom of it.

A salesperson showed me how to get the digital keyboard up on the basic Kindle, and it looked so awkward to type on! Like, arrow left, right, up, down, just to get to the right letter, then enter, then more arrowing...

No thanks. I want a physical keyboard please.

Do these Android tablets come with keyboards on the bottom of them?

[Amadan]

I still like my Sony.

[movieman]

However, I am considering getting a Kindle soon. One thing that bothered me in this thread is that with Kindle, I can only buy books supported by Amazon... Not B&N or anything else.

So long as you don't buy books with DRM, you can convert them into any other appropriate format.

[Cliff Face]

Okay... I was under the impression that most of them will have DRM though?

[SummerSurf57]

I kind of prefer the old traditional books.

[Al Stevens]

You can strip the DRM. There are programs available to do that.

[kuwisdelu]

Android tablet with apps, huh?

Don't know anything about them. Isn't Android what the Smart Phones use? I've never used that...

Like iOS, Android is an operating system for both smartphones and tablets. There are plenty of tablets these days that use Android, though the often-asked question is whether they measure up to the iPad. The typical answer is "no," but there are some that are cheaper and do offer a good experience nonetheless (and most will include access to both the Amazon Kindle and B&N Nook apps that will offer you access to both bookstores).

Basically, the big points for me are access to the largest number of books (whatever course I need to take) plus a decent screen and an actual keyboard on the bottom of it.

A salesperson showed me how to get the digital keyboard up on the basic Kindle, and it looked so awkward to type on! Like, arrow left, right, up, down, just to get to the right letter, then enter, then more arrowing...

No thanks. I want a physical keyboard please.

That is the lowest-end Kindle, which doesn't have a touchscreen and virtual keyboard. Virtual keyboards via touch screens can be pretty decent, at least for basic entry. And on the iPad, for example, it is nearly the size of an ordinary keyboard, allowing touch typing.

Do you want a keyboard to better enable you to look up and read ebooks more easily, or for a browsing/writing/tablet experience? If it's the former, the touchscreen Kindle or Nook should be fine for your use. If it's the latter, you will want the Fire, Nook Tablet, or another Android tablet, or an iPad. I don't believe the Fire has Bluetooth, and I'm not sure about the Nook Tablet, but most other Android tablets and certainly the iPad support Bluetooth keyboards for typing on a full-size keyboard whenever you like. I wouldn't recommend a tablet smaller 9-10" for touchscreen writing though.

Do these Android tablets come with keyboards on the bottom of them?

See above. Few tablets these days will come with a physical keyboard, but any tablet will come with virtual keyboard that's far better than what was demoed to you with the low-end Kindle. Whether that's enough for you is a far different question, but a true virtual keyboard (especially a larger-size one like on an iPad or any other 9-10" tablet) is a far, far cry from what you tried out.

Okay... I was under the impression that most of them will have DRM though?

Amazon, B&N, and Apple all have DRM on their ebooks, yes. That's not so much their own fault as much as the fault of the publishers with whom they've made agreements. There are many sources of DRM-less ebooks, but they may not offer the books in which you're interested (which is often my own case).

Seeing as Apple is largely responsible for the music industry giving up DRM, I'm hoping that down the road, they will attempt to force the publishing industry's hand with ebooks as well. However, as things currently are, they have far less influence than they did with music. Amazon is a large force, and I have very little faith that they will strong-arm the industry into DRM-less ebooks. I hope to be proven wrong, of course, but those are my current feelings.

In the long run, DRM is not sustainable, and I hope the industry will realize that. It is evil and undesirable in the market. I can only hope that becomes obvious to them eventually, but I expect that Amazon, B&N, or Apple will have to force their hands before they accept it.

[Cliff Face]

Hmm, okay.

Well, I can rule out an iPad. From what I've seen of them, they're too big for me (for portability and use), the way I imagine I'll use a tablet. Plus, too expensive.

[STKlingaman]

the point?

For some large corporation to make money.
Push out the small independent publishers.

I love the idea of a paperback. Read it, love it
pass it on to a friend. If you don't love it, you
can still pass it on, donate it to a library or school
or sell it in a yard sale for .50 cents.


... but what the heck.
things change, not always for the better though.

[Becky Black]

the point?

For some large corporation to make money.
Push out the small independent publishers.

...

Sorry, I think you're totally wrong there. It's small presses who are embracing ebooks, specialising in them and leading the way. And in many cases booming as a result. It's mostly the big publishers who are unable to figure out what to do about ebooks - with a few notable exceptions, like Mills & Boon, romance publishers in the UK.

Now the small independent book shops as opposed to huge corporate retailers like Amazon, that's a different story. But that would be happening if ebooks didn't exist at all, so you can't blame ebooks for that either. They're just a new and additonal factor in that process.

[scarletpeaches]

*headdesk*

Jesus, do I have to spell everything out?

People were complaining about Kindles not reading epub format.

Well...don't buy books in epub format, then. Buy them in .prc, .mobi or .pdf.

Or do what I did with all my Sony-compatible files. Just convert them all. All 400+ of them.

[Becky Black]

Basically, the big points for me are access to the largest number of books (whatever course I need to take) plus a decent screen and an actual keyboard on the bottom of it.

I've got the Kindle with the keyboard (they call it the Kindle Keyboard now - imaginative these Amazon dudes, aren't they?) and it is definitely better if you want to make notes and do a lot of searching of the Kindle store from the device. There's a on screen bit for accessing various symbols and even just for that it's a PITA, so for all input it would be a 'mare. Sounds like you definitely want the keyboard one.

Amazon certainly have a huge range - including loads of free classics, and often freebie promotions on newer books.

Basically a good test to see if it's worth your while getting an ereader, take the last ten books you bought/or ten unbought books from your To Read list (assuming they're the type you'd buy as ebooks anyway!) and go and see if they're available in a wide range of formats from a wide range of retailers. If you could have easily obtained most or all of the books at a decent price from various sources and in various formats, then you can assume that the books you want are generally going to be available to you and your ereader.

Having a particular device doesn't mean you're stuck with buying from the retailer of that device. You should be able to buy the book in the format for it at other retailers or direct from the publisher's site.

There are also programs for converting from one format to another. I hear people rave about Calibre, though I haven't had to do that stuff myself, so I couldn't comment on that.

[ShadowFox]

There are also programs for converting from one format to another. I hear people rave about Calibre, though I haven't had to do that stuff myself, so I couldn't comment on that.

It's a very easy to use program.

[Thump]

I do a lot of reading on my iPad. It's not as good as a Kindle or other E-ink readers (I'm interested in Kobo and Nook...) because it's a proper computery screen and is completely useless if the light hits it directly (grrr!) but it's really convenient when I'm commuting, it's early morning so I don't know what my name is, let alone what I want to read on the train.

iPad lets me highlight, bookmark, write notes about things... Things I wouldn't do to a paper book! I love that about it. I can highlight a particularly good bit of text and quickly refer back to it when I want. Oh and if I don't know a word or the precise meaning, tap on it and tada! dictionary!

I do love paper books but now I only buy them when I've already read the ebook and loved it so much I want the paper version to hold and kiss and nibble on...
I live in a tiny studio too and already have too many boxes of books, I need to stop acquiring them...

[jr7110]

I don't know if anyone has touched on this yet, but my biggest question about e-books is (if books do eventually become digital only and the physical book goes the way of the Dodo bird) how in the world is an author supposed to do a book signing?

[Becky Black]

There is this thing called a "Kindlegraph". But obviously that's not quite the same. I do like my signed books (mostly Pratchetts.)

Maybe in the future we'll see more author readings and Q&A sessions rather than signings. Maybe authors will prefer this since that's less RSI-inducing!

[ShadowFox]

I don't know if anyone has touched on this yet, but my biggest question about e-books is (if books do eventually become digital only and the physical book goes the way of the Dodo bird) how in the world is an author supposed to do a book signing?


Same way some people give away their books? You have a book card (i.e. a card with promotional art, a blurb, and a code which you can use to download the book) which the author can sign, it's the same idea as the ones they use for iTunes.

Some of them are already quite beautiful.

[jr7110]

Same way some people give away their books? You have a book card (i.e. a card with promotional art, a blurb, and a code which you can use to download the book) which the author can sign, it's the same idea as the ones they use for iTunes.

Some of them are already quite beautiful.

That is a great idea - I was wondering more about the absence of brick and mortar stores because if there are no bookstores, there will be no physical venues for a book tour where the signings could take place, even with a book card.

[Al Stevens]

That is a great idea - I was wondering more about the absence of brick and mortar stores because if there are no bookstores, there will be no physical venues for a book tour where the signings could take place, even with a book card.
Rent a kiosk for a day in the mall.
How about an autograph app? Depends on how sensitive the touch screens are. Or will be.

[FranOnTheEdge]

Wow! I just posted the question a day ago, and already 4 pages! That's amazing! It seems then that this is a subject that's interesting to many of us.
I'm glad, I was hoping someone would know more than I did about it - it looks like everyone does. Lol!
And it's fascinating to see what people think of them, such a lot of interesting information, it's great!
Those of you who use eBooks (of whatever format) have made me look on them with different eyes, I am more hopeful, less dismissive at least.
I don't have enough money to just dash out and buy one, but I will at least be open to looking at them, seeing what they are like in reality – instead of dismissing them because of the advert.
If it's true that you get lots of books free with them when you first buy the machine – can you choose what you get? Or is that a set thing, like Shakespeare, Dickens, Trollope, dictionaries and thesaurus?

I would hate to get an American English dictionary and not an British English one, (being British myself) although I wouldn't mind both. That would be useful. In MS Word you get both, and I have a few paperback and hardback ones too. I would prefer a Roget's over some other kind of thesaurus, but again don't mind others as well.

Obviously the free fiction would be only classics that are out of copywrite – yes? No?

On the difference between Kindle and other eBook forms, it is a pity that the betamax wars look set to continue in this fashion, and a shame that compatibility doesn't go both ways, did someone say there was a way to get around this? Something about stripping out Digital Rights Management – I think? Is that legal? I think someone said that it's okay if you do it for yourself, but not if you then pass the stripped books on to others?
Is the difference then just the titles that each format has available? (as well as the difference between the actual machines?)

I also notice people saying that they love the ability eBooks give them to just buy whatever they feel like and be reading it in seconds... sounds okay but doesn't that cost an absolute fortune?
Even second hand I only buy a book very, very occasionally. And I have to sneak it into the flat and hope he won't notice – but that's another entirely different issue. Lol.

And that's a very interesting question about book signing....

Another question:
My first book shows the impression of a missing page in a diary – I'd prefer to see such things, than try to keep them in my head while reading on...

So, do eReaders still give you cover art? And illustrations? A diagram of the murder scene? A family tree showing why a killer might have bumped off so many family members? A timetable of the alibis and suspects??? The ability to see what the torn, partially readable letter the dead girl had in her pocket actually looks like?

[ShadowFox]

Obviously the free fiction would be only classics that are out of copywrite – yes? No?


No, actually not, (assuming you are American). If you have Amazon prime, they offer a lending library with 5,000 modern books.

Even if not, there are a lot of publishing companies that offer books for free for a short period, in order to promote new releases.

So... of course, you can get pretty much any classic book for free, but you can get a lot of modern books free.

I think kindle comes with a dictionary to look up words in the book.



Something about stripping out Digital Rights Management – I think? Is that legal? I think someone said that it's okay if you do it for yourself, but not if you then pass the stripped books on to others?


It depends which jurisdiction you are in. It is legal within the UK to get around DRM for your own private use. Not sure about the American situation.

You can google how to do it.




Is the difference then just the titles that each format has available? (as well as the difference between the actual machines?)


Different formats can do different things, this is particularly important in the next generation, where you are formatting for magazines. For books, it doesn't make much difference.



I also notice people saying that they love the ability eBooks give them to just buy whatever they feel like and be reading it in seconds... sounds okay but doesn't that cost an absolute fortune?


It depends. There are an awful lot of very cheep books available, but if you are buying bestsellers it can soon add up.



So, do eReaders still give you cover art? And illustrations? A diagram of the murder scene? A family tree showing why a killer might have bumped off so many family members? A timetable of the alibis and suspects??? The ability to see what the torn, partially readable letter the dead girl had in her pocket actually looks like?

We're at the earliest stages of the revolution. Cover art exists, of course, and so does basic black and white art on most devices. Colour devices are coming.

Look forward five years, and I can imagine a time coming where it costs no more to stuff a book full of colour images than it does to have one plain text.

[Becky Black]

If it's true that you get lots of books free with them when you first buy the machine – can you choose what you get? Or is that a set thing, like Shakespeare, Dickens, Trollope, dictionaries and thesaurus?

I would hate to get an American English dictionary and not an British English one, (being British myself) although I wouldn't mind both. That would be useful. In MS Word you get both, and I have a few paperback and hardback ones too. I would prefer a Roget's over some other kind of thesaurus, but again don't mind others as well.

With the Kindle you have the dictionaries preloaded and get both and American and British English one. You can set which one to use as the default in the settings.

You don't have other free books preloaded (at least not when I got mine, about a year ago now.) You just go and get whichever ones you want from Amazon or elsewhere. Amazon doesn't presume to preload what they think you should have. And going and downloading some free ones is a good way to get to know how figure it all out without accidentally spending money!

Obviously the free fiction would be only classics that are out of copywrite – yes? No?

I also notice people saying that they love the ability eBooks give them to just buy whatever they feel like and be reading it in seconds... sounds okay but doesn't that cost an absolute fortune?

Even second hand I only buy a book very, very occasionally. And I have to sneak it into the flat and hope he won't notice – but that's another entirely different issue. Lol.

Most of the free books are out of copyright classics, but they also have modern books free, sometimes as temporary special offers, sometimes on a permanent basis. You could easily read for a year without ever buying a book - and that's just from Amazon. There are other sources of free (legally free!) books out there.

And it certainly can be very easy to go nuts buying books... :D I keep a record on a spreadsheet so I don't get a shock when my credit card bill shows up.


Another question:
My first book shows the impression of a missing page in a diary – I'd prefer to see such things, than try to keep them in my head while reading on...

So, do eReaders still give you cover art? And illustrations? A diagram of the murder scene? A family tree showing why a killer might have bumped off so many family members? A timetable of the alibis and suspects??? The ability to see what the torn, partially readable letter the dead girl had in her pocket actually looks like?

That's all still definitely in flux. You get the cover art with a Kindle book, but on the Kindle itself it's obviously not in colour. Illustrations likewise are tricky. Any book that has a lot of art or photographs I'd still buy in print, because the ebook just can't compete with that yet.

[DancingMaenid]

I have the Kindle app for my Android tablet, and that's really convenient for being able to read my books on the go. I like the actual reading experience better on the Kindle, though, and the Kindle's battery life is much better (seriously, I love that I can go weeks without charging my Kindle).

My 2nd gen Kindle does have folders ("collections"). There is only one level. You cannot create sub-folders. However, I think you can add a book to multiple collections - so it's more of a tag than a folder.


The only bad thing is, I think you can only create and manage collections through a wi-fi connection. I've never connected my Kindle to wi-fi, so I haven't been able to do anything with them. Maybe I'll give it a try, though.


If it's true that you get lots of books free with them when you first buy the machine – can you choose what you get? Or is that a set thing, like Shakespeare, Dickens, Trollope, dictionaries and thesaurus?

You don't get any pre-loaded on the Kindle. That may be different for other e-readers. My Acer tablet with Android actually came with a couple free ebooks (but I'm sure I could delete them if I wanted).

But it's pretty easy to find free content in the Kindle store.

You do get two dictionaries. I have the OED as my default, but there's an American one, too. No thesaurus. I haven't looked into whether you can download one.

Obviously the free fiction would be only classics that are out of copywrite – yes? No?

Not necessarily. A lot of free ebooks are classics, and that's mainly what I've gotten.

There's a lot of other free stuff, but it is limited. I'd say most of it is from unknown writers, and a lot is romance. So if you're a romance or erotica fan, you could find some gems. And sometimes Amazon offers free books as a promotion.

There's other stuff, too, but you have to be a little careful because a lot of free books are actually free samples of longer books. It's not always clear from the product description, so I usually read the user reviews. Of course, since it's free, the only real cost is maybe some inconvenience if a sample isn't what you wanted.

Is the difference then just the titles that each format has available? (as well as the difference between the actual machines?)

Pretty much, I think. Though, I find that a lot if not most ebooks are offered in multiple formats. But you may not be able to buy all formats from every site. For example, if I want to buy an ebook in Kindle format, I usually need to wait until the publisher puts the book on Amazon.

The machines themselves can be a little limiting. I love my Kindle, but I do get a little frustrated at times because while it can read things like PDFs, it takes more effort and isn't as smooth or an experience as it is with mobi files.

I also notice people saying that they love the ability eBooks give them to just buy whatever they feel like and be reading it in seconds... sounds okay but doesn't that cost an absolute fortune?

Depends on how many books you buy. Personally, I don't buy that many, and I don't usually buy stuff that I wouldn't have strongly considered buying in paper form, anyway. A lot of the books I have on my Kindle are free, too.

I think you do have to watch how much you spend with digital stuff, because it is easier to spend and impulse buy. I find that more with stuff like music on iTunes, though. I haven't had the problem with ebooks.

So, do eReaders still give you cover art? And illustrations? A diagram of the murder scene? A family tree showing why a killer might have bumped off so many family members? A timetable of the alibis and suspects??? The ability to see what the torn, partially readable letter the dead girl had in her pocket actually looks like?

I think it depends. My Kindle does have cover art, but it's not as prominent and visible as it would be with a physical book. And this is an area where not all e-readers are equal. I haven't gotten any Kindle books that feature illustrations or tables, and I'd be a little hesitant to do so. Also, my Kindle doesn't have color.

But the Nook Color was marketed as something you could use to look at picture books and whatnot, and I think the iPad has also been considered good for more visual books. But it depends on the device and also how the book was converted.

Personally, this is one area where I see e-readers as being a tool but not a replacement. If a book featured illustrations, I would probably buy a paper copy.

[Becky Black]

The only bad thing is, I think you can only create and manage collections through a wi-fi connection. I've never connected my Kindle to wi-fi, so I haven't been able to do anything with them. Maybe I'll give it a try, though.

I have a 3G Kindle and only very rarely connect it with Wi-Fi. I can use collections just fine, so have a go. :)

[Christine N.]

The Fire does do cover art, and in full color. It has been marketed for use with children's books, though I haven't bought any yet.

[JimmyB27]

If there were a way for me to get the physical book and the ebook without paying twice, I would buy an ebook reader in a second. I would like the ebooks for when I'm travelling, but I still want the real book.

[VoireyLinger]

I love my Kindle, actually. The e-ink screen is easy on the eyes and the adjustable font means I can set the size to suit a variety of lighting and reading conditions. I can have a new book on it in just a couple of seconds without leaving the house and I currently have 1500+ books and a few games for the kids on it. I read and deleted about 500 this year, so had I been working with print, my shelves would be very cluttered.

Like B&N, books purchased through Amazon are backed up online so if there is a problem with the Kindle or you buy a new one, you can reload or send your book to a new device. Books purchased off-Amazon I keep backed up on my computer until I've read them.

Ebooks also have an advantage for us as writers. Print books have a limited shelf-life for the average writer. This is because book stores have limited shelf space. Their goal is to get books off of the shelves, and if it isn't purchased, the book will likely be stripped and pulped. No sale and no money earned. Ebooks can be 'shelved' longer because no physical warehouse or shelf space is needed for them. Instead of a few weeks on the shelf, you have a years on the website.

Ebooks aren't perfect for all applications. For research, where I would need to reference pages or study images, I would need a print book, and for 'keeper' books I want a hard-copy book on a shelf. Ebooks are great for people like me who read a lot but don't want to keep every book we read.

[scarletpeaches]

What's the battery life like on the Kindle?

I've discovered that my problem with the Sony was a common one. After a few months, it would refuse to charge -- the red 'charging' light wouldn't come on. I could leave it plugged in to the laptop for hours, and when I unplugged it, the battery bar would show as half full, and the ereader lost what remained of its charge within ten minutes.

Sony aren't interested in helping me out because they're not making ereaders any more, so who cares?

[Shara]

I'm going to wade into this because I'm an ebook convert.

Between us, hubby and I have two e-readers. Theoretically the Sony e-reader is mine and the Kindle is his, but some e-books are only available in epub format or Kindle format, so having the two devices means we have a broader range of e-books available to us (yes, I know there's conversion software out there. Haven't gone down that route).

The Sony is the pocket version, about two years old. It came with a cover that makes it look more like a traditional book. I like the e-ink. I can take it on holiday and sit by the pool in blazing sunshine, and still see the screen. I think the Sony is more aesthetically pleasing than the Kindle. However, epub e-books in general are more expensive than Kindle books. Though this is why my royalties from Kindle sales are far less than those from epub sales...

My Sony will not 'annotate'. The Kindle will. You can put as many notes and marks as you like on Kindle versions.

Both devices let you put bookmarks in. So it possible to have a dozen books open at once, with your place marked in each. But you do have to remember to 'remove' the bookmark when you start reading again, or else it will still be holding your place there.

I like the fact that both devices are compact and light. I do most of my reading on my commute, and the e-reader is far easier to carry around than a book is. And if I finish a book on the way to work, I can just start the next one, without having to carry around a second book, just in case.

They are also much more convenient for taking on holiday. We used to pack a dozen books between the two of us for a 2-week break, which got rather heavy. Now we just take the two e-readers (and maybe a paperback each, just in case).

I like the fact I can lay the e-reader flat on the table when I read during my lunch hour. No more spilled soup because I'm trying to eat one-handed.

Buying books is very convenient, the Kindle more so than the Sony. The Kindle is literally one click. Go to amazon and click on the 'buy' button of the e-book you want. Next time you turn on your Kindle, the book is waiting for you. Or, if you have a wifi Kindle, you don't even need a computer - just go to the Amazon page on your Kindle, and buy books directly through the device.

The Sony's slightly more complicated, as you get 'reader library' software with it. To buy an epub book, you have to click on the book you buy to download it into your 'reader library', then plug the device into the PC through a USB port, and drag and drop the book from the reader to the device.

The reader serves as a backup, as all books stay there unless you delete them. With Kindle, your purchased books remain in cyberspace, on your Amazon account, so you never lose them.

Being mistrustful of technology, I also have other backups. All ebooks for both Kindle and Sony are backed up in files on our main home PC, and also on the external hard drive we have (just to be extra cautious). So what I tend to do when I've read a book is remove it from the device and keep it stored on the backup PC and external drive, just to avoid scrolling through hundreds of books for the one I want to read.

However, I will also say I haven't stopped buying print books. I'll go to a signing session and buy the signed copy. I'll browse through Waterstones and find three books in the 3-for-2 sale I think look good. Or, the e-book is more expensive than the print book (this is down to the publishers - some of them decide to price the e-book at the hard cover cost. I think this will change as the publishing industry becomes less suspicious of the digitial publishing age).

But space is a genuine issue. Our house is literally full of books and we are running out of space. The e-readers allow us to carry on buying all the books we want, without having to find space on one of the already-groaning book shelves (not counting the boxes of books in the attic).

Yes, buying e-books can be expensive. The books themselves are mostly cheaper than print, but you see so many books that are less than a pound, and they are so easy to buy, you end up taking chances on books that you probably wouldn't if you saw a paperback version priced at £6.99.

A lot of people dislike the concept of e-books, before they've actually tried them. Generally, when people discover the joys of e-readers, they realise they are not such evil things after all.

But in my view, there's still room in publishing for both print books and e-books.

Shara

[ShadowFox]

What's the battery life like on the Kindle?

I've discovered that my problem with the Sony was a common one. After a few months, it would refuse to charge -- the red 'charging' light wouldn't come on. I could leave it plugged in to the laptop for hours, and when I unplugged it, the battery bar would show as half full, and the ereader lost what remained of its charge within ten minutes.

Sony aren't interested in helping me out because they're not making ereaders any more, so who cares?

Ranges from one to two months between charges (with normal use), if you have any problems with your kindle for the first year Amazon will fix it without charge.

I've had no problems with the battery, neither has anyone else I know.

[scarletpeaches]

I don't usually buy extended warranties but with a Kindle I will. I've been burned by Sony too badly to take the risk.

[JWNelson]

Can you back up what is on your Kindle/ebook? Computers always break at some point.

fwiw, my Kindle experience tells me that backups etc are unnecessary because I can always "recall" a book I have deleted from my archive and have it sent by Amazon for me to enjoy again.

[Becky Black]

On my Kindle, with maybe an hour to two hours reading a day the battery lasts a week if the WiFi is left on and three weeks (even a little more) if the WiFi is off.

Amazon are very good about replacements. I think they just want everyone to have a Kindle, so in the first year especially they'll replace it with barely a quibble if something goes wrong. I'm on my second one after the first developed some kind of strange mark on screen, like the e-ink had been damaged. Possibly it had been knocked - though I don't know how, it's in a sturdy case and I'm very careful. But they replaced it with nary a whisper and I've heard others say the same thing about their experiences.

Geez, I sound like such a Kindle pimp in this thread. I don't work for Amazon, I promise! But I think Amazon have seriously thought through the whole thing, from the device to making it as easy as possible to manage. It's pretty idiot proof. And it's followed through with the customer service, which is great. (How often can you say that about customer service?) Like I said above, they really want people to have Kindles and tell their friends to get Kindles and buy the next Kindle, so they're working hard to make it happen. There is nothing half-assed about any part of the Kindle system. When it was first launched in the UK last year I read up all about it and said "this is going to blow the Sony and the rest out of the water." It was an incredibly strong entry into what was a very small market at that time in the UK.

[ShadowFox]

I don't usually buy extended warranties but with a Kindle I will. I've been burned by Sony too badly to take the risk.

I think you are in the UK? Did you try taking it back to the store you bought it at (this includes online shops)? They would be legally responsible under the sale of goods act 1979 anyway, and would be required to replace it, repair it or refund it at your choice if it broke after 3 months.

[scarletpeaches]

I think you are in the UK? Did you try taking it back to the store you bought it at? They would be legally responsible under the sale of goods act anyway, and would be required to replace it, repair it or refund it at your choice if it broke after 3 months.No they wouldn't -- it was out of warranty. Never mind the fact I'd had it repaired for the same fault twice while it was in warranty. Sony wanted £30 just to look at the damn thing.

So I'll write a letter of complaint, enclosing photocopies of all documentation, proving the fault first occurred less than six months after I bought it and if they had fixed it right back then, I wouldn't be in this position now.

£30 my arse. That's one third of a Kindle just to investigate the fault.

[kuwisdelu]

I'm not surprised. Sony has become incredibly consumer-hostile in recent years.

[JWNelson]

My wife bought me a Kindle a couple years ago and, before that, I was negative about the concept. After my first 3-4 books, I was a total convert.
Sure, it didn't have color and a map or illustration may not appear exactly where it should, but, considering I had a 600 page history book in a device that weighs next to nothing, I was very happy to not lug around that heavy book while traveling.
Sooner or later, we'll go the tablet route, too, maybe the new "Fire," and bring color into our ebook experience. If the day ever came where I didn't have to pay a 30-40% premium to have a little apple logo on a device, I'd consider those, too.

[ShadowFox]

Sony wanted £30 just to look at the damn thing.
.

That's ridiculous. A new battery only costs £8-£12 from amazon.

Sounds like shockingly bad customer support.

[scarletpeaches]

So, general opinion is, the Kindle shits on the Sony from a very great height, and if I order one, I won't regret it?

[kuwisdelu]

If the day ever came where I didn't have to pay a 30-40% premium to have a little apple logo on a device, I'd consider those, too.

What premium? Competitor tablets haven't really been able to undercut the iPad yet. At least none of the ones with the comparable performance and user experience. The only ones that are much cheaper make compromises or only became cheaper when put on sale at a loss to clear out inventory after not selling.

[kuwisdelu]

So, general opinion is, the Kindle shits on the Sony from a very great height, and if I order one, I won't regret it?

I'd say you can count on better customer service from just about anyone other than Sony these days.

I don't much like Amazon (I'd get a Nook if I were interested in an eInk reader), but the Kindle is a good choice for those interested in the Amazon ecosystem.

Either will shit on Sony right now.

[scarletpeaches]

I just want an ereader to read my dirty books on.

[kuwisdelu]

I just want an ereader to read my dirty books on.

If they're .mobi, get a Kindle. If they're .epub, get a Nook.

[scarletpeaches]

They were all epub, but I mass-converted them to mobi and/or prc.

I don't think the Nook is available in this country anyway. It's B&N affiliated, and there are no B&N stores over here.

[Becky Black]

I've never had a second of buyer's remorse with mine. It doesn't replace paper books entirely, it's a complement to them, so it doesn't have to be an either/or thing.

[ShadowFox]

The Kobo is available from WH Smiths now, but Kindle is by far the market leader in the UK. I am going out on a limb, I don't think you will have trouble with either of them, but I bought my mother a Kindle just last week because I think it is simple to use, and will last.

[kuwisdelu]

They were all epub, but I mass-converted them to mobi and/or prc.

I don't think the Nook is available in this country anyway. It's B&N affiliated, and there are no B&N stores over here.

Well, there you go. Get a Kindle. It'll shit on the Sony.

You still have to choose which Kindle, of course...

Here's a review of the new low-end one (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/reviews/2011/11/cant-touch-this-the-new-keyboard-free-kindle.ars), here's a review of the eInk touchscreen one (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/reviews/2011/11/ars-hands-on-the-kindle-touch.ars).

[scarletpeaches]

I pretty much kept my Sony for my erotic romance books. Everything else I would buy in print. Course, with a Kindle it's so easy to go to the website and have a book sent to you immediately, so...

Yeah. My bank account weeps already, and I haven't even ordered the thing yet!

[scarletpeaches]

Heh. Kuwi said shit.

[JWNelson]

What premium? Competitor tablets haven't really been able to undercut the iPad yet. At least none of the ones with the comparable performance and user experience. The only ones that are much cheaper make compromises or only became cheaper when put on sale at a loss to clear out inventory after not selling.

:) Knew I would step on an Apple fan's toes with that comment. http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn101/bigheadx-ca/icons/icon_take_cover.gif
Usually I preface such comments with "for my needs" just to preempt that long-standing debate. I've seen the iPad1/2 and its competitors and, for my needs, I can't see spending the extra money. That said, I bought my wife an iPhone 4 and she has a MacBook. ;)

[kuwisdelu]

:) Knew I would step on an Apple fan's toes with that comment. http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn101/bigheadx-ca/icons/icon_take_cover.gif
Usually I preface such comments with "for my needs" just to preempt that long-standing debate. I've seen the iPad1/2 and its competitors and, for my needs, I can't see spending the extra money. That said, I bought my wife an iPhone 4 and she has a MacBook. ;)

No problem. The Nook Tablet looks like a very nice device to me, but neither it nor the Fire really compete in the same space as the iPad, and the fire sale prices of the Touchpad or the Playbook aren't exactly sustainable as a business model.

If I were looking into getting a non-iPad tablet, the Asus Transformer and Transformer Prime look good to me, but they fall into a pretty comparable price range.

[ShadowFox]

erotic romance books.

This is completely off topic, but what is erotic romance?

[JWNelson]

No problem. The Nook Tablet looks like a very nice device to me, but neither it nor the Fire really compete in the same space as the iPad, and the fire sale prices of the Touchpad or the Playbook aren't exactly sustainable as a business model.
I should dig out the review a pretty knowledgeable tech friend did comparing the new "Fire" to the other e-readers. Pretty much echoed your comments. But I also think Amazon can continue to lose a few bucks on the "Fire" considering its function as a feeder for other purchases.

If I were looking into getting a non-iPad tablet, the Asus Transformer and Transformer Prime look good to me, but they fall into a pretty comparable price range.Good points!

[kuwisdelu]

Heh. Kuwi said shit.

It's true. I generally prefer sexual to scatological profanity.

This is completely off topic, but what is erotic romance?

It's a dangerous and dirty addiction with which people like SP are afflicted.

I should dig out the review a pretty knowledgeable tech friend did comparing the new "Fire" to the other e-readers. Pretty much echoed your comments. But I also think Amazon can continue to lose a few bucks on the "Fire" considering its function as a feeder for other purchases.

I believe a tear down revealed Amazon actually is selling the Fire at a loss, with the intention of making it up in content sales.

Here are the Ars reviews of the Kindle Fire (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/11/dont-call-it-a-tablet-the-kindle-fire-reviewed.ars) and the Nook Tablet. (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/reviews/2011/11/lean-mean-consuming-machine-reviewing-the-nook-tablet.ars?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss) Their conclusions are more or less that the Fire is a good window into Amazon's content ecosystem, but the software isn't very polished otherwise. The Nook Tablet has generally better hardware, smoother software, and is an all-around better experience, but the sustainability of its app ecosystem is questionable.

[scarletpeaches]

It's a dangerous and dirty addiction with which people like SP are afflicted.I CAN QUIT ANY TIME I WANT!

[kuwisdelu]

I CAN QUIT ANY TIME I WANT!

Why don't I believe you?

[Reservoir Angel]

I don't really like the Kindle idea. I understand it, but I just don't like it. Call me old fashioned, but what was wrong with print? It worked perfectly fine for hundreds and thousands of years.

I mean, I did consider buying one and I suppose in the long run it saves money, but I just don't like reading off of a screen. Never have, probably never will. I mean, forum posts and stuff I'm fine with, but reading entire novels on a handheld screen? I'll pass thanks.

I foresee a bleak future where anyone caught reading a proper book, as in words printed with ink onto paper and bound together, will be mocked viciously for being behind the times in the age where everyone can access 50,000 books on their handheld device. But I like my books. If I didn't I wouldn't have bought so many of them that incorrect weight distribution of them broke my gigantic shelf.

I'm aware I sound like someone's un-hip dad right now, but damn it sometimes those crotchety old blighters are right about stuff! I'm not too big on iPads either now I think of it.

[scarletpeaches]

I don't really like the Kindle idea. I understand it, but I just don't like it. Call me old fashioned, but what was wrong with print? It worked perfectly fine for hundreds and thousands of years.And yet you're typing posts on a computer, rather than carving hieroglyphs on a cave wall.

[Reservoir Angel]

And yet you're typing posts on a computer, rather than carving hieroglyphs on a cave wall.
I realise this flaw in my logic, but I am nothing if not a master of irony and contradiction so I embrace this failing.

Plus I never said I have a big problem writing on a computer, but reading novels or just big chunks of text off a screen for prolonged periods of time just messes with my eyes.

[Williebee]

I don't really like the Kindle idea. I understand it, but I just don't like it. Call me old fashioned, but what was wrong with print? It worked perfectly fine for hundreds and thousands of years.

Your post reads as if you are buying into someone else's argument -- namely the idea that this is an either/or proposition.

It isn't. It's more a question of, as a reader, which method works best at whatever given time and situation we are in or are going to be in (vacation, school, traveling, home.)

Related to that is: Which format(s) will best suit our readers, most often, and then most cost effectively? This is also not an either/or discussion.

Forex:
Reader me likes book in hand, but on the couch, on a rainy day. Reader me also likes a stack of books at my fingertips when I travel.

There is no good reason, as yet, to give up either one.

[kuwisdelu]

I don't really like the Kindle idea. I understand it, but I just don't like it. Call me old fashioned, but what was wrong with print? It worked perfectly fine for hundreds and thousands of years.

I mean, I did consider buying one and I suppose in the long run it saves money, but I just don't like reading off of a screen. Never have, probably never will. I mean, forum posts and stuff I'm fine with, but reading entire novels on a handheld screen? I'll pass thanks.

For me, it's just easier to carry my phone and tablet than a phone, a tablet, and a book.

And when I can only carry my phone, my place in my book is wirelessly synced to that, so I can keep reading where I was on my phone if I want.

But yeah, all of that really depends on not minding reading off a screen, which I don't.

[Amadan]

I don't really like the Kindle idea. I understand it, but I just don't like it. Call me old fashioned, but what was wrong with print? It worked perfectly fine for hundreds and thousands of years.

So did wooden cartwheels. And cooking things on a stick over a fire.

I mean, I did consider buying one and I suppose in the long run it saves money, but I just don't like reading off of a screen. Never have, probably never will. I mean, forum posts and stuff I'm fine with, but reading entire novels on a handheld screen? I'll pass thanks.

You realize that reading an e-ink screen is not like reading a computer or phone screen, right?

I'm aware I sound like someone's un-hip dad right now, but damn it sometimes those crotchety old blighters are right about stuff! I'm not too big on iPads either now I think of it.

No, you just sound like that guy who always shows up in these threads talking about how nothing can replace the smell of paper and bathtubsbatteriesreadingonabeachAmazonwilldeletemy libraryohnoes!

[alleycat]

Just a suggestion (actually, more than a suggestion), let's keep the debate on friendly terms.

I hate to delete other people's posts, but I will.

[Medievalist]

I don't really like the Kindle idea. I understand it, but I just don't like it. Call me old fashioned, but what was wrong with print? It worked perfectly fine for hundreds and thousands of years.

Well, no, print didn't work "perfectly fine for hundreds and thousands of years."

Print in the West is less than a thousand years old. Even if you want to look at Chinese block printing with reusable "type," it only goes back to the 11th century.

And for a lot of people with vision problems, print doesn't work at all.

The printed codex book isn't going to disappear soon—though the paperbacks you buy this year might be in very bad shape in ten years.

[Becky Black]

I've found that with the E-Ink screen rather than a backlit screen the difference between that and a page of actual ink printed on paper really makes little difference to me. It's a page of text and it's the content that matters, rather than the fact I'm pressing a button rather than turning a page. If I'm thinking more about the medium than the content isn't holding my attention in the way it should be.

[scarletpeaches]

I'd stake every penny on my bank account on my migraines being the worst of anyone on AW, but I still manage to read okay on an ereader.

E-ink is nothing like a backlit computer screen, which can play havoc with my head, especially my vision (ability to focus, depth perception). There is no glare on an ereader; it's just like reading a normal book.

[ShadowFox]

I agree, in fact with the ability to increase the text size, it is easier and often less migraine inducing for me to read via an e-reader.

I still read printed books, and I read ebooks, but not enough of either. I want more :)

[scarletpeaches]

She who dies with the most books wins.

[Jupiter]

One good thing about e-readers or reader apps is that they make reading more comfortable. I have MS and on bad days the act of holding a book can be extremely painful. Having books on the Kindle app on my laptop means that I can read for as long as my eyes can take it, without causing me discomfort. I'm re-reading Lord Of The Rings at the moment and it's one big-ass book to hold for any length of time.

Another good thing about e-readers is that I find that I'm reading a wider variety of genres and authors than ever before, thanks largely to cheap and free e-books. If I've enjoyed a free ebook I'll make a concerted effort to seek out further (paid for) works by that author.

The format debate will continue for as long as different formats exist, but I doubt that paper books are in any danger of dying out in the foreseeable future. I love browsing in bookshops and the smell of books (maybe I'm just weird). This is something that e-readers cannot replace.

[Cliff Face]

We don't have Nook or B&N here either...

I'm still considering a Kindle, but for the price, I can't justify it right now, not after just getting a new laptop.

I also can't justify it when I have about 40 books in my TBR pile - so buying 20 $1 books won't mean they actually get read, you know?

[Jersey Chick]

My Kindle just arrived this afternoon and I'm already loving it. :D

[Cliff Face]

I'm a little weird on the print vs. e-book debate of principles...

Like, yes, I love my print books. But then, I've never read an e-book on an actual e-reader. I've read a few AWers books on my computer, but that isn't an eInk screen, and it's not the same "hold and press button to turn page" thing as an ereader. On a computer, I'm invariably reading in .doc or .pdf format, where it's a HUGE screen of text (the worst part being left-to-right width) and having to use a mouse to go from page to page.

So I'm sure an ereader will be more pleasurable than reading from a computer.

My sense of smell is pretty weak. Generally, I only smell really strong smells... So the smell of paper isn't something I'm really accustomed to.

Having to hold open a book to the right page makes it hard for me to grab a drink or whatever when I still want to keep reading. An ereader can just be put down, no messing about with bookmarks.

But then, an ereader doesn't have cover art (Note: I mean, the Kindle itself doesn't take on the art of the book you're currently reading), and it's harder to browse your TBR pile... Like, you'd have to navigate an ereader's display to see what hasn't been read yet. With my bookcase, I can just stand back and take it all in.

But then there's my anal obsession with order. On an ereader, all books are the same dimensions (though different number of pages) and it's easy to keep an ereader in order - you find a spot for it in your house, and that's where it lives when you're not using it!

But with print books, they're often different dimensions. So for instance, I have all 8 books in a series by Maryjanice Davidson. 7 of them are trade paperback sized. 2 of those are the American version (had to order them) with different style of art on the covers. 1 of them is so much bigger than the rest, the collection looks wrong overall. It's too tall and wide. It doesn't help matters that this is book 7 of 8, so it's not even on the end of the collection!

My collection of print books is rife with these sorts of issues. So even putting books in order by author and series and genre and size where the others aren't relevant... Well, it still looks messy.

And some books just plain won't fit on some of my shelves.

Those 8 books I mentioned used to be on the top shelf. Or rather, 6 of them did. Then I bought book 7, and because it's bigger, it didn't fit. So they moved down a shelf. This required reorganising the bulk of 2 bookcases!

So there are definite psychological advantages to an ereader, I suppose, for me at least.

But would I give up on print books? I doubt it. It'd be both formats for me, in different situations.

Especially as some books by AWers are only available on the Internet, and not in Australia, so I can just buy them on a Kindle instead of going on the computer and waiting a week or more for them to be delivered to my house.

[Rhoda Nightingale]

I strongly prefer print books, and completely understand most of the arguments against ebooks and ereaders.

HOWEVER.

Many of the folks on here have published ebooks that simply aren't available in print form. I'd like to have something smaller and more portable than my computer on which to read them.

That's the only selling point of an ereader for me, but it's a big one.

[Cliff Face]

Yeah, at this point my main impetus for getting an ereader is AW ebooks.

I think with most readily available books, I'd still get the paper version. But then I'm saying this having never used an ereader...

Although... Take my music collection for an example of the way my mind works. I want to have a big collection of CDs. I also want to have an mp3 player so I can listen to vast quantities of music on the go. But I don't use iTunes, because I want the physical CD and because I see no point in buying a single song when pretty much whenever I've bought a CD by a band whom I've only heard the one song from - every time it seems I've fallen in love with some of the other songs, moreso than the one that prompted me to buy the CD.

Can we extrapolate this to ebooks vs. print books? Not sure... But I do love to ramble!

[JimmyB27]

Although... Take my music collection for an example of the way my mind works. I want to have a big collection of CDs. I also want to have an mp3 player so I can listen to vast quantities of music on the go. But I don't use iTunes, because I want the physical CD and because I see no point in buying a single song when pretty much whenever I've bought a CD by a band whom I've only heard the one song from - every time it seems I've fallen in love with some of the other songs, moreso than the one that prompted me to buy the CD.

Can we extrapolate this to ebooks vs. print books? Not sure... But I do love to ramble!
See, I buy CDs, and then immediately rip them to iTunes - best of both worlds. If there were a way to do that with a book, I'd have an eReader in a flash.

[Cliff Face]

Well, I immediately rip my CDs too - only I do it to my computer, in a certain file archive place thing, not iTunes.

I have to rip my music, or else I can't get the songs onto my mp3 player.

I'm assuming an iPod of some development would be linked to your iTunes account, but I can't justify spending $150-200 for an iPod when I only spent about $20 on my mp3 player, which has served me well for the past 3 or 4 years.

[Shara]

Agree with those others who've said that reading an e-Ink screen is nothing like reading off a computer. E-reader screens don't play havoc with the eyes, they allow easy page turns and book marking, and they can be read in direct sunlight. I have read my e-reader lying by the pool on holiday. Can't do that with my NetBook.

I want to add one point to the Kindle vs Sony/Nook debate though. A lot of people I know with Kindles have had problems with the screen stopping working after a short period of time. I know someone who's been through three in a year.

We've had our Kindle a year and never had problems, but it does have a hard cover which protects the screen. I have a feeling that the screen damage problem comes in if you carry your Kindle around in your bag unprotected. The screens are delicate and can't take pressure or knocks of any kind.

Unlike Sony, Amazon do not provide an e-reader cover free of charge, but if you buy a Kindle, it's worth investing in one to protect your Kindle's screen. At least until Amazon create a more robust Kindle screen.

As for the Nook - I hear rumour this will be available in the UK next year through, I think, Waterstone's. The Kobo is Canadian (the 'Chapters' e-reader, I believe?) and that's now available in the UK through WH smiths.

[scarletpeaches]

Unlike Sony, Amazon do not provide an e-reader cover free of charge...Sony didn't either.

As for the Nook being available in the UK, Waterstone's are making their own version like the Nook, but as they're not B&N, it'll be called something else.

[Shara]

ScarletPeaches - my Sony came with a free cover, but maybe it was just the model I got. It was a pocket Sony, from an independent retailer via Amazon.

The Nook thing I heard was a rumour. Clearly not accurate!

Shara

[scarletpeaches]

I spoke to someone in Waterstone's last week when I went to pick up my (still-broken) ereader. They said they'd had so many complaints about the Sony ereaders they'd decided to stop selling them as it wasn't a quality product and not something they wanted to be associated with. As it happens, Sony are halting production of their ereaders anyway and concentrating on their equivalent of the iPad.

I can't remember what the woman said the Waterstone's reader would be called, but she compared it to the Nook and said "We'll be selling it like B&N do the Nook in the States."

[tjwriter]

I am really looking into buying an ereader, but I am not sure what to get. Opinions?

[scarletpeaches]

Stay the hell away from Sony.

I'll be ordering a Kindle this week so I'll let you know how it goes. (Trying to time it so it arrives at the weekend.)

[tjwriter]

My dad has a kindle. The only thing I am leery of is the proprietary formatting. The Nook uses the more standard format and therefore has a few more options.

But I do like some of the features of the kindle, including the 3G.

I've been having this internal debate for weeks now.

[Becky Black]

We've had our Kindle a year and never had problems, but it does have a hard cover which protects the screen. I have a feeling that the screen damage problem comes in if you carry your Kindle around in your bag unprotected. The screens are delicate and can't take pressure or knocks of any kind.

Unlike Sony, Amazon do not provide an e-reader cover free of charge, but if you buy a Kindle, it's worth investing in one to protect your Kindle's screen. At least until Amazon create a more robust Kindle screen.

I know I still managed to end up with some apparent damage to mine, even though it had a sturdy cover and I'm ridiculously careful. Amazon replaced it anyway. It freaks me out when I see people using them naked. (The Kindle naked, not the people.) Or at least shoving them in a bag unprotected. It's like seeing someone riding a motorbike without wearing a helmet.

I definitely say get a cover or case. There's a huge range available. There are even waterproof ones so you can read it in the bath. (I would never ever dare do that. :D)

[Amadan]

Stay the hell away from Sony.

I'll be ordering a Kindle this week so I'll let you know how it goes. (Trying to time it so it arrives at the weekend.)


My Sony has been working fine for a couple of years now. I'm only thinking of replacing it because the newer models are more lightweight.

Also, mine came with a free cover, but it was a cheap cloth one.

I'm opposed to Kindles because they are wedded to a single company's ecosystem and I don't want to have to jump through extra hoops to de-Amazon Kindle books. Stripping DRM from epubs sold by Kobo and independent publishers is annoying enough.

(That said, I've already bought into Apple's ecosystem, since iPods + iTunes + Audible.com is so damn convenient.)

[scarletpeaches]

Honestly, I wouldn't bother. Sony are doing away with their ereaders so it's not in their interests to help out customers when existing models go wrong.

[Shara]

Just about all other e-readers - at least in the UK - take epub formats, so there are plenty of alternatives to Sony. It's only the kindle that requires a different format.

I think we're going to see other devices hit the market in the next couple of years.

I'm interested in what you're saying about Sony readers being discontinued, SP. I've had mine a couple of years and never had to contact customer services - maybe I've been lucky.

I guess when it goes kaput I will be buying a Kobo, as I like the look of those and I will be able to read my epub books on it.

Shara

[ShadowFox]

Personally, given I already use Calibre, I find the conversion from epub format to mobi format is completely painless. Whether a reader has Mobi or epub format is irrelevant to me.

You'll end up messing around when you change ereaders anyway, getting around the DRM (which calibre does very well too).

[Jersey Chick]

My Kindle came Saturday afternoon. I'm halfway through my second book on it as of this morning. I avoided buying one for the longest time, but I'm a total convert already.

[scarletpeaches]

None of my ebooks have DRM anyway; they're all smutty ones from places like Loose Id and Samhain. :D

[Cliff Face]

LOL. Just had a thought...

I suppose an ereader full of smutty books is less conspicuous than carrying around a Playboy. :tongue (Not the same thing, I know.)

[Becky Black]

LOL. Just had a thought...

I suppose an ereader full of smutty books is less conspicuous than carrying around a Playboy. :tongue (Not the same thing, I know.)

It's no joke, this seems to be a very significant factor in ereader popularity - you can read something in public that you wouldn't be seen dead with if other people could see what it is. :D

[scarletpeaches]

Well. I are about to order my Kindle. I'm a bit nervous 'cause it's a lot of money, but it's still far cheaper than my Sony was.

[Cyia]

Honestly, I wouldn't bother. Sony are doing away with their ereaders so it's not in their interests to help out customers when existing models go wrong.


Are you sure? Rowling was supposed to be doing a special packaging deal with them to pre-load the HP books onto new ones starting next year. Until the store opens, it's the only legal way to get them as ebooks

http://www.pcworld.com/article/239221/hands_on_with_sonys_lightweight_lowcost_reader_wif i_prst1.html

[scarletpeaches]

They'll be selling a Sony-equivalent of the iPad, so I was told. So you can read ebooks on it, but it won't be a dedicated ereader. :Shrug:

I'm not of a mind to buy another Sony product anyway. As you'll have guessed!

[A.R. Starr]

My Sony will not 'annotate'. The Kindle will. You can put as many notes and marks as you like on Kindle versions.

Shara

That's strange. My Sony Pocket allows me to annotate as much as I like. It's often how I do my novel editing.

What version of the Pocket do you have?

[The Lonely One]

E-Books & Kindle seems to be taking over the world, now back when it first came out I heard that Amazon could take your books away from you if the publisher went bust. Could take away physical files on my physically owned electronic device? If a publisher folds do I also have to give back all the paperbacks I bought at B&N?

Not something that can happen with a paperback or hardback.
Not unless they jimmy the door and filtch them from your bookshelves. Maybe kindle does that but I have no idea. I have a sony reader.

I've seen their current advert - can't avoid it, unfortunately - and the very idea of reading on any kind of screen makes me cringe, I get enough headaches from the PC, thanks. e-ink just keeps getting better, with better non-reflective screens. My sony pocket is as easily readable as a page in a book, no eye-strain beyond the usual from reading. Easy peasy.

I hate not being able to flick through pages. touch screen, baby. *flicks page.

I'd hate something like that to hit me in the eye as I begin to drop off to sleep - and how the heck would you have two or three books open at once to refer back and forth? Well, that is a drawback but a somewhat trivial one to me.

And how can you put little coloured sticky notes on various pages? I can not only annotate highlighted sections which are saved as links in a folder, I can also use touchscreen to write directly on the page, circle crap, draw genitals, etc.

The screen may be big compared to other handheld devices, but compared to a book it's tiny. In order to get even a paperback's page content onto one screen, you'd need the text to be too small for me to read it. zoom in. You can make it so big and legible there's literally like a handful of words per page. Plus the increase resolution/contrast option.

....I have a really nasty feeling that this is going to be the inevitable future that I will go to my grave being the grumpy old woman grumbling about.

.... however I can also see a point in the future where my own work finally makes it to publication only to find that it's on Kindle only....

No, I haven't got one, so probably eveything I've said is just rubbish, but I've vented some angst, so that's good.

ggg

What do you think?

Is the future already here?

Are books doomed?

One time a professor told me "Those (ereaders) are nice, but I prefer paper," in a somewhat condescending way seeing that I had one. I kind of wanted to say, stone tablets are kind of cool but no one publishes stone tablets. There's a reason ebooks are emerging, and it's a good thing for keeping people reading in an internet age. In the beginning stage of reader technology I could agree with you, but it's only getting better and the differences to paper more trivial. You sidestep entire steps in the book-making process, such as paper production, book binding, printing, and can offer information with a click.

[fivetoesten]

I may have missed it as I read through this thread, but what the heck is a flipdesk? :-)

[HLWampler]

I've had my Kindle for two years now, I love it.

Plus, Amazon is amazing with it. Mine broke for whatever reason and they had a new one to me in two days. I was one happy camper.

[scarletpeaches]

I only ordered mine last night and it's been dispatched already. I thought I timed it so it would arrive on Friday, but it might even get here before then.

[ShadowFox]

I only ordered mine last night and it's been dispatched already. I thought I timed it so it would arrive on Friday, but it might even get here before then.

Good luck with it. You'll probably need to charge it up for a while before you use it anyway.

[FranOnTheEdge]

I have a Kindle and really like it. I don't like it as well as reading from a physical book, but it does have its uses. For me, the big advantage is space. I have limited room right now, and would have run out of space by now if I only bought physical books.


Er... I already HAVE run out of space, I now have books in stacks that I am trying desperately to keep away from the mould growing on the walls of our flat that is gradually creeping closer and closer.

Selection is a huge advantage. The Kindle allows me to buy short stories, novellas, and anthologies that wouldn't be sold in bookstores near me, and that sometimes aren't even released as physical books at all. I like that ebooks have made novellas more marketable.



The Kindle uses "e-paper" technology that is supposed to be easier on the eyes and more akin to reading actual paper, so it's not exactly like reading on a PC.

Nothing wrong with not wanting to read off a screen, though. That's perfectly understandable.

I admit that I hadn't heard of this 'e-ink' stuff that makes the e-book screens better until I asked in here, but about reading from a screen, the handheldness (Is that even a word?) of e-books could be a distict advantage since a lot of my neck problems are probably because the screen on the desk is at a bad angle. Handheld would take care of that.

Mind you it would also take care of any ability I might debatably have to actually write.



I don't usually fall asleep while reading, though, so taking a moment to put my Kindle in my nightstand drawer isn't a huge deal.
Oh I do, often. After this has happened a few times I then wake up enough to put the book on the Bedside table.



[/QUOTE]I believe you can make notes and place digital bookmarks on the Kindle. You can also highlight things, I think. I haven't done this myself, though. [/QUOTE]
I would want to do that.
I'm doing that right now with the book I'm reading now: Catching Fire; How Cooking Made Us Human. Only the notes are on post-its.



For example, I love that my Kindle comes with dictionaries. Those books are huge and heavy. My Kindle is light, and I can search for the word I want.

We used to have both dictionary and thesaurus with Word, but now that all that's dealt with online (and thus much, much slooooooower) – we don't, but although you could add to the dictionary, you can't add to the thesaurus, and Word's thesaurus used to be abysmal, It's not brilliant now, but at least it gives you options for searching in other places.
It would be nice if you could have both UK and US Dictionaries AND an addable Thesaurus. If you could with an e-book and would be another advantage. (for me)

ETA: As for the backing up thing, I've had no problem keeping my Kindle ebooks saved on my computer. I don't connect my Kindle via wi-fi; I use the USB cable, which requires me to have my purchases saved on my computer.

Oh that's good news!

I love my Kindle. Just checked it and I have 375 ebooks on it. That's a whole library on one little device. And they dont automatically take your books if a publisher goes under. I have stuff from the now defunct Aspen Mountain Press and it's still on my reader

Very VERY good news!

If you don't want one, don't get one. They still make print books. I think you're panicking over nothing.
Oooh I'm not panicking, I'm asking. You'll be able to tell when I'm panicking, I make a whole heap more noise in a panic, rushing around and flailing about, shouting, screaming, yelling, fainting... the whole works!


I prefer paper books in general, especially now that Kindle prices are not much better in some cases. /////

//// and I hate "flipping" through pages - it is very, very slow compared to paper. Also, I have a sort of visual memory, where if I remember a good line in a book I can usually find it just by flipping pages and I'll recognize the right page when I get to it. No similar experience on Kindle. I have to use search feature, which often gives too many hits or takes too long to process.

Yes I have that sort of memory too. Hmmm.

Kindle does, too, but I find it a pain. Also, I often don't know that I'll want to find a line or scene again until something else comes up later.

Exactly!


I'll weigh in on this one. I'm 48 and resistant to ebooks. Not because I have issues with technology but because I love the feel of a real book in my hand.

Having said that, I work for a publisher who is transitioning to ebooks--not entirely but realizing they have to adapt to a changing market. Not just many but most of their customer base is comprised of seniors and they don't want to hear about ebooks.

At first.

My job is not chock full of glamour and intrigue--I work in customer service, not the publishing side of things. And who's making the switch to ebooks? All these seniors. Here's why:

1) They go from large print to larger print to largest print until they run off the map and out of options. With an ereader, they find they can make the font size as large as they need it to be. They're loving that.
//////but they can't do the largest print because the book is bigger, is hardcover, and it just hurts their hands to hold. Um, ereaders weigh about as much as a deck of cards. They don't have to apply pressure to hold it open--just hold the reader and scroll from page to page to page.

As resistant as most seniors start out about ereaders, they grow to accept them and even rely on them and quickly. Why? Because as much as seniors love the look and feel and even smell of a real book in their hands, they love reading even more. With an ereader, they don't have to give that up. Ereaders are ideal for seniors. Ideal.

I just don't want to get to a time when paper books are no longer being printed anywhere. I want choices and yeah, I want to see my story come out as a real live book.

Oh yeah, I agree with that last, nice to hear about the rest because I have osteoarthritis, and one day it sounds like I'll nead an e-book.

I don't know if anyone has touched on this yet, but my biggest question about e-books is (if books do eventually become digital only and the physical book goes the way of the Dodo bird) how in the world is an author supposed to do a book signing?

Very good point!
I suppose they'll just have to incorporate the 'sign my electronic proof of work done, screen' here thingie that some firms are using nowadays.

And yet you're typing posts on a computer, rather than carving hieroglyphs on a cave wall.

Well, if you think about it, the cave wall hieroglyphs writer could be quite lonely sticking to his cave, as there aren't a lot of other cave writers about, the beggers have all beggared off and bought computers and ebooks, it seems. (lol)

I realise this flaw in my logic, but I am nothing if not a master of irony and contradiction so I embrace this failing.

Plus I never said I have a big problem writing on a computer, but reading novels or just big chunks of text off a screen for prolonged periods of time just messes with my eyes.

Yes, it's the long periods that are doing it to me too.

I'm a little weird on the print vs. e-book debate of principles...

Like, yes, I love my print books. But then, I've never read an e-book on an actual e-reader. I've read a few AWers books on my computer, but that isn't an eInk screen, and it's not the same "hold and press button to turn page" thing as an ereader. On a computer, I'm invariably reading in .doc or .pdf format, where it's a HUGE screen of text (the worst part being left-to-right width) and having to use a mouse to go from page to page.

So I'm sure an ereader will be more pleasurable than reading from a computer.

My sense of smell is pretty weak. Generally, I only smell really strong smells... So the smell of paper isn't something I'm really accustomed to. ./QUOTE]

Oh! Did you know that according to QI, (of which I am a great fan) the smell we all love of old books – actually is the smell of the books mouldering away, and the moulds are very slightly halucinogenic – I want my first book coming out of one of those!!! Do you think these moulds could improve your book's salability??? Lol!

///////
But then, an ereader doesn't have cover art (Note: I mean, the Kindle itself doesn't take on the art of the book you're currently reading), and it's harder to browse your TBR pile... Like, you'd have to navigate an ereader's display to see what hasn't been read yet. With my bookcase, I can just stand back and take it all in.

But then there's my anal obsession with order. On an ereader, all books are the same dimensions /////
But with print books, they're often different dimensions. So for instance, I have all 8 books in a series by Maryjanice Davidson. /////1 of them is so much bigger than the rest, the collection looks wrong overall. It's too tall and wide. It doesn't help matters that this is book 7 of 8, so it's not even on the end of the collection!

/////. So even putting books in order by author and series and genre and size where the others aren't relevant... Well, it still looks messy. .[/QUOTE]

You would hate our local charity shop, some daft begger has sorted all the books into order of size and colour – you can't find anything, no alphabeticalisation at all... grrrrr!!!!!!! (is that a word?)

[/QUOTE] ///// This required reorganising the bulk of 2 bookcases!

So there are definite psychological advantages to an ereader, I suppose, for me at least.

But would I give up on print books? I doubt it. It'd be both formats for me, in different situations.

/////[/QUOTE]

Sorry about cutting the quotes down folks, but I only just figured out the multi quote thingie, managed it once by accident then lost it until now. So I had a lot to reply to.

[kuwisdelu]

I find it interesting that some prefer flipping through a book to searching. With print books, when I recalled something I wanted to look back to or quote, I would never be able to find it. I could spend an hour trying to track down a page with a scene I was looking for. With my iPad, I just search for a keyword or two, and I'm there in seconds. Much easier, IMO.

[The Lonely One]

re:Sony so far I've had zero issues with my new pocket edition. I originally had an older model periodical edition or whatever it was (the bigger one with 3g) but realized I was never visiting the sony store on the go, so when I cracked my screen I bought the smaller, cheaper one without internet connectivity. The e-ink is 100 percent more readable on this model, the screen like 75 percent less glossy, and though it's a smaller screen you can make the font size anything so I don't care really.

Didn't know they were gonna stop with them but I love mine and they did the touchscreen before Kindle so that's what really drew me to it. It also isn't hard to read with the new touch screen, which was a problem with the other/visibility issues in certain lighting.

Now that I say that the thing is gonna explode on me, but I am a back alley brand-whore to Sony. Yes, they're a big giant douche company. But they make electronics I swear by.

[Sarah Madara]

I find it interesting that some prefer flipping through a book to searching. With print books, when I recalled something I wanted to look back to or quote, I would never be able to find it. I could spend an hour trying to track down a page with a scene I was looking for. With my iPad, I just search for a keyword or two, and I'm there in seconds. Much easier, IMO.

That works if I remember a keyword or two, and they are distinctive enough not to return a thousand results.

Sometimes, though, I remember a scene or a line so vaguely that I have a hard time searching for it. I often have a sort of visual idea of where it was on the page, how far through the book, how close to the end of a chapter, whether the page was densely packed with long paragraphs or had lots of white space and dialogue, etc... Those cues are absent for me on the Kindle.

[Bubastes]

Rachelle Gardner blogged about e-books vs. print books today. Judging from the 150+ comments, people have strong feelings about it. I agree with Rachelle's view that it's a "both/and" issue, not an "either/or" issue:

http://www.rachellegardner.com/2011/11/e-books-vs-real-books/

[The Lonely One]

I like the blog post. To me, the stupidest argument for paperbacks is "I like the FEEL of books." Yeah, I like to pet kittens but it doesn't mean I'm going to go murder one and carry it around with me to caress at my leisure. There is something to be said about reducing consumption of natural resources in the book industry, the (I hate to utter these words, trust me, but...) green initiative. I get some people like tape hiss and the warmth of vinyl records. Some people prefer darkroom photography (I like that stuff, too but all of it is lesser, outdated quality stuff that has its main value in nostalgia). A digital camera now takes the kinds of pictures film could never dream of, and couple that with digital editing, man it's just amazing. Audio recording, while a little colder sounding than the classic listening modes, do not contain imperfections. You can do practically anything to sound, without cutting up and reattaching ribbons of tape. That could be fun, as a hobby. But why eschew new forms that are more efficient? I'm just going to only read from scrolls from now on, dead ones. From the sea. I will reconstruct them from the caves I discover them in. I'm going Biblical hipster...

EDIT: I know I'm going to get flak for this. Just wait for me to put on the bulletproof vest.

[kuwisdelu]

That works if I remember a keyword or two, and they are distinctive enough not to return a thousand results.

Sometimes, though, I remember a scene or a line so vaguely that I have a hard time searching for it. I often have a sort of visual idea of where it was on the page, how far through the book, how close to the end of a chapter, whether the page was densely packed with long paragraphs or had lots of white space and dialogue, etc... Those cues are absent for me on the Kindle.

I tend to completely forget those kinds of details. I'll generally think I have an idea what the page looked like, or where in the book or where on the page it was, only to find I'm completely and totally mistaken. In high school, when we had in-class essays over a book, this was particularly troubling, since I could never find the quotes I was looking for. If I'd had a search function, I could have, since I can generally remember enough unique words or phrases to find anything that way.

[scarletpeaches]

My Kindle arrived around half an hour ago and I've connected it to my home WiFi network, got it up and running, shunted all my ebooks onto it, job done.

I love that you can read while charging. You couldn't do that with the Sony.

[JWNelson]

if you only have the wireless feature on when you need it, you will be very happy with how long the battery holds a charge. Congrats!

[The Lonely One]

I love that you can read while charging. You couldn't do that with the Sony.

Yeah that is really annoying. And my sony seems to die while sitting in my backpack over a few weeks.

[Alessandra Kelley]

You would hate our local charity shop, some daft begger has sorted all the books into order of size and colour – you can't find anything, no alphabeticalisation at all... grrrrr!!!!!!! (is that a word?)

Sounds like it was sorted by an interior designer. That's how they think of books: two shelf feet of 12" to 15" high books in green, please.

Seriously, secondhand book dealers get some freaky orders.

[juniper]

I often have a sort of visual idea of where it was on the page, how far through the book, how close to the end of a chapter, whether the page was densely packed with long paragraphs or had lots of white space and dialogue, etc... Those cues are absent for me on the Kindle.

I have that sort of visual reading memory too. I can remember if it was on the left or right side page, and at the top, middle or bottom ... middle of paragraph or beginning or end.

My 87-year-old father-in-law just bought himself the $379 Kindle DX. He's losing his eyesight due to macular degeneration and hasn't been able to read print easily for awhile. This will be such a great thing for him.

I imagine I'll have an ereader of some kind in the next year or so. I'm not fond of Amazon's business practices toward the literary community so am reluctant to buy a Kindle, but I don't know. I may just get an iPad instead, which I am drooling over would like to have.

[wampuscat]

I have a Nook and I love it so much that my husband also bought one. I've only got about 30 books on it, but that'd be a lot of shelf space in my house. My husband travels a lot for work and loves that he doesn't have to pack around multiple books with him.

I also love that I can download samples and buy books wirelessly. My local library even lends ebooks.

I put a lot of bookmarks and notes into books if I want to reference things.

[sky warrior books]

Lots of people who don't "get it" tell me that they'll never make the change over to e-books.

I'm sure that's what was said when writing on paper was invented instead of using rocks or clay tablets ("Papyrus? Are you kidding? That won't last.") Or when the Gutenberg press produced the Bible. ("I can't stand this newfangle print! Gimme a room full of monks!")

My thoughts are along the lines of that whether or not you approve or disapprove, like or dislike, or whatever, books are going to e-book route for the following reasons:



The cost of materials and production is cheaper, enabling smaller publishing houses and self-publishers the ability to produce a nice product for a lot less.
Producing e-books are a green alternative to producing dead-tree books.
The playing field is currently level. It doesn't matter whether you're a big press, small press, or author, you have the same distribution and may be able to snag a large readership.
Book hoarders, such as myself, finally have a way to have thousands of books without needing the shelf space.
It's easy to carry an entire library with you while traveling.
E-books have opened up a realm of out-of-print books that were in clumsy text formats, requiring you to read online or print out reams of paper.
For those of us a little (ahem) older, e-books have made it easier for us to read by giving us multiple print sizes and even text-to-voice processing.
E-books from the non-NYC houses tend to be lower cost, thus making them into the paperbacks of the 21st century.

There are other reasons, and yes, quite frankly, NY publishers will argue that producing an e-book costs the same as producing a paperback. That's true if you have the huge overhead NY has (building, salaries, advances, etc). Smaller presses may not (mine included).

[scarletpeaches]

Yeah that is really annoying. And my sony seems to die while sitting in my backpack over a few weeks.Apparently the battery runs down even when it's switched off. You have to shut down the device entirely. There's a menu option for that which I've completely forgotten in the near-fortnight since I've had my Kindle.

I charged my Kindle when I got it, and again around a week ago, and I've read in total, twenty-six books on it so far.

That would never happen on my Sony. I could read maybe three or four books on it maximum before the battery was dead.

[Bubastes]

Ok, I have to pick a nit -- can people stop saying that e-books are a green alternative to dead tree books? Manufacturing e-readers uses a lot of natural resources and, unlike books, they're not biodegradable.

I love e-books (and paper books, and audio books, and...), but I don't kid myself into thinking they're environmentally friendly. Electronic devices rarely are.

[kuwisdelu]

Ok, I have to pick a nit -- can people stop saying that e-books are a green alternative to dead tree books? Manufacturing e-readers uses a lot of natural resources and, unlike books, they're not biodegradable.

I love e-books (and paper books, and audio books, and...), but I don't kid myself into thinking they're environmentally friendly. Electronic devices rarely are.

The e-readers themselves actually can be more "green" (http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/are-e-readers-greener-than-books/) than dead tree books, with the use of recyclable materials and efficient electronics, depending on how much you read and how long you keep it. It's not the e-readers themselves, but the data centers that host all the books and cloud computing resources they use (http://news.discovery.com/tech/is-the-ipad-green.html) that may lead to them being less environmentally friendly. I imagine that if the the power sources for these data centers could transition to greener alternatives, then e-books as a whole would indeed represent a better solution.

[sky warrior books]

Ok, I have to pick a nit -- can people stop saying that e-books are a green alternative to dead tree books? Manufacturing e-readers uses a lot of natural resources and, unlike books, they're not biodegradable.

I love e-books (and paper books, and audio books, and...), but I don't kid myself into thinking they're environmentally friendly. Electronic devices rarely are.

Hmm, you have a point there, but I wonder what is more costly?

If I remembered the exact number of paper books published yearly (I'm sure some clever person who is less lazy than I am can look this up again) and could come up with a general number for how many total printed (my print runs at major publishers ran anywhere from 5000 to 20,000), I suspect the numbers of dead-tree books printed are in the hundreds of millions each year. Many of these books are printed in China with costly inks and are shipped via boat before arriving in the US or wherever they go. Shipping and transportation costs are pretty darn expensive.

Now, let's look at an e-reader. Yes, it is made in China and shipped to wherever with not so green components. You've got me there. However, unlike a paper book, it can hold about 1000 to 5000 books.

So, if a person buys an e-book reader and hangs onto it for five years, buying their books from e-book sellers, they save that number in cost, PLUS the cost of distribution and the cost of printing inventory. No book languishes on the shelves of brick and mortar stores. Most people already have a computer or smart phone, so even if they didn't buy an e-reader, they can read it on their computer or phone.

Now, I have absolutely no real numbers to back it up, but I suspect--suspect--it is greener than paper books.

Just my thoughts...

[movieman]

Ok, I have to pick a nit -- can people stop saying that e-books are a green alternative to dead tree books? Manufacturing e-readers uses a lot of natural resources and, unlike books, they're not biodegradable.

My Kindle cost about $150 and holds around 4,000 books. I'm not sure of exact costs but if we assume a paperback costs $1 to print and ship to a store, then that's equivalent to $4,000 of paper. Given most of that cost will be raw materials and energy, I'd say that e-readers are clearly a more 'green' alternative.

As for data centers, our servers use about 400W under full load and could store millions of e-books. The power usage is miniscule compared to shipping a book from China to a store and then driving there to buy it... an e-book that sells one copy a week would use around a thousandth of a cent of power per copy.

[sky warrior books]

The e-readers themselves actually can be more "green" (http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/are-e-readers-greener-than-books/) than dead tree books, with the use of recyclable materials and efficient electronics, depending on how much you read and how long you keep it. It's not the e-readers themselves, but the data centers that host all the books and cloud computing resources they use (http://news.discovery.com/tech/is-the-ipad-green.html) that may lead to them being less environmentally friendly. I imagine that if the the power sources for these data centers could transition to greener alternatives, then e-books as a whole would indeed represent a better solution.

I think that might have been true back in the 90s and early 00s with server farms (and me as a Sys Admin, in my other life), but most computers nowadays are made to be efficient. Heck, I've got a cloud server in my house and a terrabyte hanging off it and it sits on my bookshelf.

Most companies are trying to keep energy costs down. It makes sense for business, not just because it's "green." I think this is pretty much a moot point because one box can usually handle serving hundreds of thousands of files. They most likely have offsite backup and storage, but again, it's just a replica of the computer. I don't see how this would be more than the myriads of computers and machines used to produce paper books. Many books have inks that are petroleum-based, and don't get me started on the color books.

So, I stand by my statement. E-books are greener than paper books.

[kuwisdelu]

It's true I don't think my sources took into account the carbon cost of flying print books from overseas warehouses. That does probably change things quite a bit.

That said, comparing home servers to the kinds of data centers we're talking about is... we're talking about data centers that corporations have to consider whether the towns in which they build them have enough power to spare to support them. The scale is totally different.

However, that said, the proportion of power from iTunes' and Amazon's data centers that go toward hosting and sending books versus movies and music is probably quite small.

[movieman]

However, that said, the proportion of power from iTunes' and Amazon's data centers that go toward hosting and sending books versus movies and music is probably quite small.

Bingo. The power usage for storing e-books is minute when you consider how many books a single server can store; those rent-a-movie servers will be using vastly more power.

And my home server takes around 120W when running flat out. I'm talking about the servers we use for our installed systems in my day job, which run 24/7 with multiple CPUs and RAID arrays of high-speed disks.

[kuwisdelu]

Bingo. The power usage for storing e-books is minute when you consider how many books a single server can store; those rent-a-movie servers will be using vastly more power.

True, but it's not like Amazon or Apple have separate data centers for movies versus books as far as I know.

[movieman]

True, but it's not like Amazon or Apple have separate data centers for movies versus books as far as I know.

But that's irrelevant, and building a new data center for e-books would be silly when you'd probably only need one rack of servers to handle all the e-books Amazon currently sells.

The power usage of the data center is a combination of the power usage of the servers in it and the services required to support them (e.g. cooling). As long as it's reasonably well utilised the total power used to keep a server running is probably going to be 1.5-2x the power consumption of the server. Including all the overheads you're still talking thousandths of a cent per copy even for an unpopular book; far less for a best-seller.

[Cliff Face]

Am I wrong here? It was my understanding that there isn't a direct "less money used = greener" correlation.

Like, isn't it about physical scale of resources combined with used non-green energy, and not "it only costs a few cents"?

For instance, if I was getting electricity from 2 sources, a nuclear power plant and a traditional electric tower thing, wouldn't the cost in money to me be the same from either source, whereas the electric tower is greener because the nuclear byproducts are very bad?

Just a thought. :)

[Cliff Face]

And then there's the information I've heard, whereby recycled products can often be more expensive than just making new stuff.

[Sarah Madara]

"Green" is really complicated when you take into account not only resources used, but pollution and landfill factors. Recycling is not always cost-effective or environmentally effective, but you have to take it on a case by case basis.

My completely uninformed guess is that an e-reader is quite green if you keep it a while, but considering the appetite people have for the latest and greatest electronics, the life of an e-reader probably isn't as long as it should be. There was an article in The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/replacement-therapy/8609/) about how people can't wait to replace their gadgets. That's probably where the e-reader might lose on the environment.

[JMFreely]

I'm writing specifically for Kindle, so - I bought the Touch 3G to understand how they work. I had the PC App for Kindle, but I wasn't allowed as many free books. That's the best thing about owning a Kindle or a Nook IMHO.. the chance to have tons of free books stored in the cloud ready for my next reading.
Plus, since I read and write erotica - no one can tell what I'm reading when I'm doing more research waiting for my tires to get rotated.

[WordCount]

I have a Nook simply because there isn't a B&N within 45 minutes of my house. If there was, I doubt I'd have bought it.

[dpaterso]

I've seen their current advert - can't avoid it, unfortunately - and the very idea of reading on any kind of screen makes me cringe, I get enough headaches from the PC, thanks.
It's the opposite for me, I can read much more on my Kindle, for longer periods of time, and not get eyestrain headaches because I have naunce-level control over the screen angle and how light falls on it. Also, font size adjustment, total win.

I'm not abandoning hardcopy books. But I also like reading on my Kindle. The last 3 books I bought are sitting on it, waiting to be read... and yet the Kindle doesn't weigh any more than it did originally! Amazing! :)

-Derek

[L M Ashton]

We've abandoned paper books entirely several years ago.

It's a bit different for us. Living in Asia, we don't have access to the same paper versions of books that y'all in the US or Canada or Europe have. In Sri Lanka, in particular, we get only a very very tiny fraction of English language books. It's painfully ridiculous. With ebooks, though, we have a huge range available to us.

Also, we have silverfish, an insect which eats paper and bindings and even hard covers for books. They eat through, leaving holes behind them. Oops, can't read that paragraph? Too bad! We've had dozens to hundreds of books destroyed by those insects.

Then there's the mold/mildew/smell issue of books in a tropical environment. And not being able to read the paper book because it makes you sick.

Just that alone, never mind being able to carry around thousands of books in my purse and being able to adjust font size for aging eyes and all the rest, makes it worthwhile for us to abandon paper entirely.

[blacbird]

Then there's the mold/mildew/smell issue of books in a tropical environment.

Obviously you need the eleven feet of snow my abode has received (so far) this season.

caw

[L M Ashton]

Obviously you need the eleven feet of snow my abode has received (so far) this season.

caw
I would *love* to see some snow. And make snow angels nekkid. Oh, would I love that. :D