finding an editor

I don't know why a copyeditor would be giving a detailed analysis. That sounds like more of a freelance editor's job. But, if it's a copyeditor you are looking for, here are some thoughts on the matter:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1225116&postcount=16

If you're looking for a freelance editor, try here:
http://www.the-efa.org/

Kinds of editors

I would like to know what others have experienced when seeking an editor.[/QUOTE]

I used an editor the summer before last who went through my manuscript and made notes---on grammar, plausibility, possible changes. It was interesting---I had no idea what to expect. Since then I hired proofreaders who checked for spelling and also continuity (meaning if the hat was red in the last chapter, then it better be red in the next.)

However, from talking with other writers I am of the opinion that even editors don't know exactly what the lines are in different kinds of editing. Some will do copy editing and check for spelling and typos and (some do grammar). You also have the continuity editor (see above). You have the developmental edit where the editor looks at the story as a whole and tells you what is not working.

The other thing I have learned is that these editors all ask for different rates of pay.

I definitely recommend (1)getting a sample edit, (2)making sure you know EXACTLY what the editor plans to do regardless of what name he or she calls the editing, (3)get a couple of references because some editors are MEAN and this should be a nurturing relationship (learn from my mistake), (4) actually look at published work that has been edited AND (5) in the genre that you write within. You definitely don't want an editor who hates romcom if that is what you do---they won't get it. I talked to several editors I really wanted until I saw what they had edited---that speaks!

Are you looking for a developmental editor, a line editor, or a copyeditor? Those are very different things.

What do you have right now and what are your goals? One big question is whether you're writing fiction or non-fiction. The right answer for you will depend strongly on that.

Before turning to any for-pay editor, I'd examine beta readers and our own Share-Your-Work section. (I note you have enough posts here to enter that sub-forum.)

I'd also pick up a copy of Self-Editing for Fiction Writers and The First Five Pages.

Pepperman said:

I sent samples of my writing to four different editors. I am more confused than ever. The editing was completely different with each.

#1 changed only one word. Fee for complete ms... $500.00

#2 thought the flow was very good and recommended only punctuation changes. Fee...$1245.00-$3500 depending on extent of editing.

#3 said he didn't take everyone who requested editing because he didn't need the business. He then proceeded to write 2 pages (single spaced) telling me why he didn't do free sample evaluations. His fee (if he accepted me.)1.25 cents/word

#4 Changed so much in the sample page that I thought he was writing the story. His fee...$3500.00

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I agree about Self-editing for Fiction Writers---very good. I have not read the First Five Pages, but I want to check it out.

I totally understand your frustration. I would LOVE to have a great editor who would do it all and I sort of think you may be feeling that way, as well. As I think I said, I now have divided this up into parts and I use different people for different things. I have two proofreaders---you can get this on the cheap---who just check typos and continuity and whether things sound clear. I found these people through friends.

I would LOVE to have a developmental editor who would look at the big picture and tell me what is working and what isn't. And i would love to have someone look at each and every sentence and see if I have expressed it as clearly as I could. Finding the right person feels (to me) like looking for a needle in a haystack.

First (and easiest), do these editors have experience in your genre (what is your genre?).

Second, if someone won't do a sample edit, will they give you a list of the published books they have edited? This is a biggie and it will tell you a lot. I found an editor I loved---we had great rapport and the price was right and he was willing to do the big picture and go sentence by sentence also. But I went to Amazon and bought the book he had just edited (you can read a sample for free on Amazon.) Now, you have to be clear about this because if all the editor did was correct grammar and spelling, then that is all you can look at. His sentence structure in places was really poor, so I didn't go forward with him.

You have to know exactly what you want them to do AND how the process is going to work. In other words, are you going to get pages back by mail or is s/he going to edit on your manuscript electronically and email it back. How often will you talk by phone and for how long and who is in charge of scheduling this?

I had an editor I hired to correct every sentence and she did not do it in a different color, so it was an absolute nightmare to tell what she had done. I paid for it, but I was steaming mad. YOU have to go through and check every single change. She hyphenated everything she could find and some things that would never, ever be hyphenated. It took me hours and hours to work through it. I also had a nutzoid editor who didn't do anything---I paid for that one, too. Which is why I say---pay a little bit and see what they do, then pay a little bit more, and see.

I am absolutely certain that a bad editor can harm you---make you really unsure about your writing. It has to be a nurturing relationship and you do not want someone who is MEAN (you also definitely don't want a yes-person). It's almost like a marriage---it takes time to know if this is the right person so pay as you go.

I have sent pages to more editors than I can count and they all come back with totally different things, which is why I say that a bad editor can harm you. Once you narrow it down by (1) genre and (2) looking at what they have edited that's been published (I have to laugh at these editors who have these big fees and have nothing published) (3) get references and ask the editor's clients what they are like. You know what you can and can't handle emotionally and that discussion should ferret that out. You will also get a good idea of the work flow---how often and in what way you will work with this editor. Then you have to figure out the pay---learn from my pain---pay in small increments.

JL_Benet said:

I don't know why a copyeditor would be giving a detailed analysis. That sounds like more of a freelance editor's job. But, if it's a copyeditor you are looking for, here are some thoughts on the matter:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1225116&postcount=16

If you're looking for a freelance editor, try here:
http://www.the-efa.org/

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Excellent post. Thanks so much! The thing that bugs me about copy editing is that I have a voice and I don't want my manuscript "comma'd up." Is that fair? I had a fight with an editor (a very good editor, for what that's worth) who insisted that I had to use commas to separate independent clauses. You know, if I don't hear it, I don't want it. Is that wrong? My book moves and all those commas slow it down to a crawl.

Would someone please tell me the difference between a line edit and a copy edit? Is line editing basically proofreading?

One more question---I have a friend who has an editor who takes a percentage of the book. I really don't want to give an editor a percentage, but I am more than willing to pay a MUCH larger fee if I can take it out of the proceeds from the book---has anyone found such a person? I UNDERSTAND that this is speculative, but a good editor ought to be able to tell what is worth her/his time and what isn't---in other words, what is likely to be published and what isn't.

Which brings me to a second question? My friend just hired and then left an editor who took gross advantage of the situation. My friend had REALLY hoped this editor had connections and could move the manuscript along. I know that the first editor I used did put me in touch with a publisher who I had failed to impress with queries. After this editor (who freelanced for this publisher) told them about me, they immediately wanted to talk to me. Does anyone know how to locate editors with those connections?

pen said:

The thing that bugs me about copy editing is that I have a voice and I don't want my manuscript "comma'd up." Is that fair? I had a fight with an editor (a very good editor, for what that's worth) who insisted that I had to use commas to separate independent clauses. You know, if I don't hear it, I don't want it. Is that wrong? My book moves and all those commas slow it down to a crawl.

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Editors only make suggestions, they don't make changes. If the author agrees with the suggestions, he makes the changes; if he doesn't, they don't get made.

All writers have their own voice; editing should enhance it, not hide it. If your good editor suggested that you needed to use more commas then it's possible that your writing isn't clear enough, and needed those commas to make it more readable. Just a thought.

Would someone please tell me the difference between a line edit and a copy edit? Is line editing basically proofreading?

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No. Line editing is NOT proof reading. Here's a page on my website which gives a brief overview of the stages of editing; and here you'll find a post on my blog which discusses the same thing.

pen said:

I know that the first editor I used did put me in touch with a publisher who I had failed to impress with queries. After this editor (who freelanced for this publisher) told them about me, they immediately wanted to talk to me. Does anyone know how to locate editors with those connections?

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They're all over the place. The thing is they don't like to be exploited; and they won't put all writers in touch with publishers, only the ones they think are appropriate and good enough.

If your query didn't attract good attention then there's a problem with it; you might want to work on that a bit more before spending any money at all on an editor.

Thank you for the response and the link to your website. I do think this is illustrative of the problem---because your structural/line edit is what many editors refer to as distinct processes. Many call the structural edit a developmental edit---I only know this because I have talke to so many of them. But those folks do not want to work with individual sentences and from looking at another link posted on this thread, that writer referred to the line edit as making sentences shine.

Believe me, I have NO DESIRE to take sides or start an argument on any of this---just pointing out what I originally said and still think---that even editors don't agree on what is what. So it is confusing for mere mortals. ((-:

As for the publisher, I don't think the query was the problem. I have a friend who is an agent and she will look first at people who come recommended---it's just that simple when someone is overwhelmed.

I am not interested in exploiting anyone, so I'm not sure where that comes from. I am interested in finding someone who has a similar disposition to mine and who can recognize the value in what I do. If an editor thinks he or she has a good working relationship with a writer who can produce quality work, what more could you ask for? It certainly doesn't hurt an editor to be associated with a successful writer---to be able to say, "I edited this blockbuster." I haven't found very many editors who have edited anything that's been published. The web is FULL of would-be editors, but where is their track record?

I'd love to know where "all ove the place" is? ((-:

pen said:

I haven't found very many editors who have edited anything that's been published.

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There's a very simple reason for this: very few professional writers need outside editing. It's a skill a professional writer needs to have for him- or herself.

Terie said:

There's a very simple reason for this: very few professional writers need outside editing. It's a skill a professional writer needs to have for him- or herself.

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Also, the best editors do tend to prefer to work with trade publishers as they know that the books they'll edit are going to be of a certain quality. If they freelance, they usually freelance for trade publishers; if they have a day-job, they're not going to have much time to freelance.

Editors are out there, but the best ones are expensive, and booked up months in advance. Writers working alone are not going to find them easily, I'm afraid.

Working as a freelance copy editor, I find that the relationship between writer and CE is like a client with a hair stylist. You want to be on friendly terms, each should understand what the other wants, you should feel comfortable communicating with each other, and payment should be agreed on in advance, with possibly a tip at the end if you're really happy with the results.

Sometimes I have that sort of relationship with my client (and I make them look good!), and sometimes I don't. Most of my clients are people I've never met face to face, so they might not say much more than "Thanks! Here's your payment," and that's it. Just like you, CE's like feedback. I'm negotiating a book editing job with a client right now who told me what he DIDN'T want me to do, and I respect that. It gave me an edge over another CE who edited his sample chapter into oblivion.

There's a lot of word-of-mouth in this business. I get most of my work that way. Ask people you know, even if they aren't writers. They might have a friend who has a friend who is the perfect CE for you.

Spec editor

I would really like to find someone reputable who would work on spec. I don't know how to find one, and it sort of surprises me that editors think it's beneath them---because lawyers do this ALL THE TIME! If they think you have a case, they want it. It seems like a smart editor would feel the same way---if the book is good, being associated with it would bring more work their way, plus they could command a lot more money on spec.

Just my thoughts.

pen said:

I would really like to find someone reputable who would work on spec. I don't know how to find one, and it sort of surprises me that editors think it's beneath them---because lawyers do this ALL THE TIME! If they think you have a case, they want it. It seems like a smart editor would feel the same way---if the book is good, being associated with it would bring more work their way, plus they could command a lot more money on spec.

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Pen, it just ain't gonna happen. Your analogy with lawyers simply doesn't work. A lawyer can have a fairly good idea of what cases will succeed. No one EVER knows whether a manuscript will get picked up until it actually does.

Professionals don't do work for others on spec unless there's a sure payoff. Also, why would someone do work on spec when there's more than enough properly paying work to keep them busy? Further, why would someone take on spec work that, even if they do get paid, it won't be for a few years? (That's the typical amount of time from the beginning of querying until the first check is received -- IF the manuscript sells, which, frankly, is unlikely: Only 2% to 3% of queried manuscripts get picked up.)

Would you do a month's worth of work for a stranger that you probably wouldn't ever get paid for? Would you do a month's worth of work for a stranger right now that, if you did get paid, it wouldn't be until sometime in 2013, 2014, or beyond? Why would you expect others to do so on your behalf?

What I see here is that you are very ignorant of how publishing works, and instead of learning from our responses, you keep arguing with us about why we're wrong. I would suggest that instead of arguing, you spend time learning how publishing works.

Also, to reiterate what I said earlier: professional writers don't get outside editing. What you're asking is for someone else to do $5,000 to $10,000 of work (work that you should do yourself) with no guarantee of getting paid. And you're questioning why no one would do that.

Here's the real deal: learn how to edit your own work, just like the rest of us have done.

pen said:

I would really like to find someone reputable who would work on spec. I don't know how to find one, and it sort of surprises me that editors think it's beneath them---because lawyers do this ALL THE TIME! If they think you have a case, they want it. It seems like a smart editor would feel the same way---if the book is good, being associated with it would bring more work their way, plus they could command a lot more money on spec.

Just my thoughts.

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1. Wait a minute... Who said it was "beneath" them?
2. By working on spec, I assume you mean the editor does not get paid unless your book sells first? That means putting in a lot of unpaid hours for what amount to very little or no pay. Somehow that really doesn't sound appealing. Maybe I misunderstood.
3. How do you know the book is good? What are your determining criteria?
4. Lawyers and editors are not in the same business.

You want someone reputable, but are YOU someone reputable? How does a prospective editor know this?

pen said:

One more question---I have a friend who has an editor who takes a percentage of the book. I really don't want to give an editor a percentage, but I am more than willing to pay a MUCH larger fee if I can take it out of the proceeds from the book---has anyone found such a person?

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This concerns me, because I think you have an unrealistic expectation about how much money a novel will sell for. Advances for traditionally published books are MUCH lower than they used to be, averaging $5K-$10K. Are there books that make more? Of course! But I sure wouldn't go in expecting it. At a conference I attended I heard an agent say, "10 is the new 50," implying that books that used to get $50K advances now were getting only $10K. Note that there are books getting less than $5K too, and many small presses give only royalties, no advance.

If you self-publish, the chances of making even $5K are exceedingly slim. Again, it happens, but I sure wouldn't want to make a bet on it. I believe I read a stat that the vast majority of self published books sell fewer than 50 copies.

Now factor in the price of editing. If you learn to edit yourself, you lose NO MONEY and you gain an extremely valuable skill -- one traditional publishers will expect you to have, by the way. But let's say you pay $3500 for editing. If you make a $10K advance, that's 35% off the top of your profit. If you make a $5K advance, it's 70% of your profit.

I'd say the odds are stacked much more in your favor if the editor asks for a percentage. Yes, there comes a point where it would go in the editor's favor, but statistically, the risk is worth it.

pen said:

My friend just hired and then left an editor who took gross advantage of the situation. My friend had REALLY hoped this editor had connections and could move the manuscript along.

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That's not an editor's job. That's an agent's job. If an editor has industry connections -- and, as has been pointed out, many freelance editors are not industry insiders -- the editor may make a recommendation, if he truly believes the manuscript is ready for publication.

Here's the thing, though: The majority of manuscripts are not ready for publication, even after editing, because they were too far from ready when the editor got them. Editors are not magicians. They cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear. A good editor can make a manuscript a LOT better, but that doesn't mean it is publishable. Some manuscripts simply will never be at the level required for traditional publishing.

So, knowing that, look at it from the editor's POV. He has a manuscript that isn't at the level he knows the traditional publishing industry requires. He has contacts in the industry. Does he risk his reputation with those contacts by recommending something he doesn't believe is ready? I sincerely doubt it. Recommendations are hard won in this industry because reputation is IMPORTANT.

Spec editor

I appreciate all the replies (kind and otherwise). If, however, there is someone who is interested in a spec or know someone, feel free to contact me.