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Mayusan

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I know this is being discussed in the Agent forum, (but as it relates to agent representation)

So I thought I'd ask here.

For grins and giggles, let us say I queried a few publishers about my book, and after 3 rejections and 2 no-hear froms (after several months of waiting) I decided it was time to try self e-publishing (like on Kindle).

Now, let us say all goes well and I publish the book myself on Kindle, and then a month or so later, a publisher I queried finally replies and decides that they would like to see the full manuscript, or (as is the case with one publisher) already has the full manuscript and they decide to take on the project (most likely unaware I've decided to self e-publish).

What would be the appropriate response on my part? Also, if I decide to self e-publish, do I stop querying publishers in hopes of one day getting the book in print?
 

kaitie

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I think the appropriate response would be to withdraw the manuscript from consideration before self-publishing so that they don't waste their time on it. And yes, I would stop querying. If you want to see the book published and in print, exhaust those options first. Don't jump the gun and self-publish because once you do you've raised the hurdles for commercial publishing even more. If you've exhausted those options you still have self-publishing on the table.
 

Filigree

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What Kaitie said. Withdraw the book and stop querying on it, if you are determined to self-publish it. Though the rules have relaxed a lot in the last few years, you will still be taking that book off the gameboard until you can show a decent sales record for it. Otherwise, most agents and editors won't look at it: it's already been published! That's okay if you have another, unrelated mms to query. But if this is your best work, I'd give it a little longer.

Here's what I'm doing, for my own mms. After it was finished and polished, I entered it or parts of it in some genre-related contests. Didn't win, but placed high enough to use that in my query letters. I re-tooled my bad query letter completely, based off suggestions here in SYW. I've queried six of my dream agents, and one has asked for a partial. If none of those pan out, I'll query the next 20 great agents on my list. If that gets me nowhere, I'll query those large genre publishers and the smaller-but-respected ones that still take unagented submissions. Then and only then, (and about three years from now, given publisher response times) would I consider self-publishing. It takes a lot more marketing and promotion than many people understand, and I'd rather be writing my next book.
 

Susan Coffin

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Mayusan:

My question to you just for giggles and grins :D: why would you want to self publish after not hearing back on only five queries? With only five, you are barely scratching the surface.

However, should you choose to do self publish, the prior answers seem correct.
 

Mayusan

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For grins and giggles... its not that I want to stop after a few rejections, a few no hear backs...

I'm just hitting a brick wall. I have not been able to find many publishers for my genre. I've found a lot of Paranormal erotica, or Paranormal Romance (fiction), a lot of non-fiction new age paranormal as it relates to the spiritual or metaphysical, but not non-fiction "ghost hunting". Those I have found that do publish non-fiction ghost hunting type books are more interested in collections of stories from all over the country (and/or world), and not one specific localized area.

Same goes with agents. I tried querying a few agents when the agent working on my pet care book stated he has no resources for this genre as it's not his expertise. I got nowhere there either which is why I decided to keep going it alone.

So its not that the book doesn't have merits. I've passed it out to unbiased samplers (readers who don't know me personally and have no problems stating if they like the book or not) and they seemed to find it interesting and unique... and I'm proud of the work. I'm just having problems with finding the right publishers to get the word out to.

That's my main issue at the moment and why I've got a shaky finger on the kindle publish button. lol
 

Alwaysinspired

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I know this is being discussed in the Agent forum, (but as it relates to agent representation)

So I thought I'd ask here.

For grins and giggles, let us say I queried a few publishers about my book, and after 3 rejections and 2 no-hear froms (after several months of waiting) I decided it was time to try self e-publishing (like on Kindle).

Now, let us say all goes well and I publish the book myself on Kindle, and then a month or so later, a publisher I queried finally replies and decides that they would like to see the full manuscript, or (as is the case with one publisher) already has the full manuscript and they decide to take on the project (most likely unaware I've decided to self e-publish).

What would be the appropriate response on my part? Also, if I decide to self e-publish, do I stop querying publishers in hopes of one day getting the book in print?


If you decide to self-publish, you need to let those you queried know and withdraw your work. It's an all or nothing proposition, because once you self-publish, an agent definitely won't want to see it. However, in the future, if you sell a ridiculous amount of your self-published copies, then the possiblity exists that might make a difference when seeking representation.
 
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Cyia

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If your story is localized non-fic, then you might make a go of it self-publishing and selling the book locally (like in local shops, if there's an interest in your subject) That's a winning formula for a few well placed and presented non-fiction projects.

If you want commercial publication, then don't self-publish. Assuming a publisher DID want it, and you'd already put it up to self-publish without their knowledge, you could have problems. (INAL, though, so take it for the worth of an opinion.)
 

Mayusan

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I can not afford self-publishing. I was only thinking of Kindle because the direct publishing is no-charge. Though again, I'm still not quite ready to push that "submit" button. I'd still like to try to go through a traditional publisher... but again, it seems most publishers these days are publishing erotic fiction, paranormal romance fiction, Scifi/Fantasy.

I've gone through over 60 pages on the beware and background checks page, and haven't found one that deals with the non-fiction paranormal genre. It seems mostly "Erotic" this and "Erotic" that.

It's almost like the few I have queried were pretty much it. lol.
 
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Mayusan, putting your book up on Kindle yourself is self-publishing it. You need to be clear about this before you proceed.

And there are plenty of publishers and agencies which publish esoteric non-fiction: I know, I used to work for them.

I think you're focussing too narrowly on the word "paranormal" and not thinking laterally about how such books are defined.
 

shaldna

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let us say I queried a few publishers about my book, and after 3 rejections and 2 no-hear froms (after several months of waiting) I decided it was time to try self e-publishing (like on Kindle).

Now, let us say all goes well and I publish the book myself on Kindle, and then a month or so later, a publisher I queried finally replies and decides that they would like to see the full manuscript, or (as is the case with one publisher) already has the full manuscript and they decide to take on the project (most likely unaware I've decided to self e-publish).

What would be the appropriate response on my part? Also, if I decide to self e-publish, do I stop querying publishers in hopes of one day getting the book in print?

The first thing you need to do is to inform them that the book is already self-published. What happens next depends on the publisher. Many will simply not want to know after that, some will still be interested. In that case you would take it down straight away.
 

areteus

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You say that agents are not interested because of the genre? Ok, I can see how your cat strory agent may not want it for very good reasons (and it was professional of him to reject it on those grounds) but there are many agents out there who do all sorts of genres. It sounds to me as if they haven't read it but only read your query letter - and therefore how you describe your genre. So it may be that your query letter needs work, particularly with respect to your synopsis and how you describe it.

And before considering self publishing, I would lower my sights and look at small press. There is often a lot of variety in what is bought by small press in terms of genre and it is usually a far better (in terms of sales and overall coverage and publicity) than self publishing.

But yes, you do need to inform anyone who has the manuscript that you are taking these steps towards self publishing so that they can withdraw your manuscript from consideration. Remember that many publishers and agents can take months or years to get through thier slush piles and therefore get to your manuscript so there is a chance that those that have not replied yet have simply not yet read it and may be really keen when they do read it. Also, 5 agents is not a large number of queries to have done at this stage.
 

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Mayusan, you need to look harder. Go to the bookstore, get on the web. Start hunting down books on ghost hunting (there are a ton), and figure out who's publishing them. Most of the time these are small presses, so you're right, agents may not want your book based on your query. If you're going to get a $3-5,000 advance, and sell a couple thousand copies, an agent may feel more like, "Eh, this person should pitch directly" and they're right.

So if I were you, I'd get your book proposal together, and start subbing to some small presses who publish in your genre. Like Old Hack, I also used to work for one. I assure you, they exist.

Self-published books are being considered more and more by agents and publishers, true, but you should still go into self-publishing feeling that you would be 100% happy if nothing more ever came of the book. It sounds to me like that isn't the case for you yet, so I'd keep working.

Also, did I read correctly your original post that one of the five publishers already has a full manuscript? A 20% response rate off a query is great. Don't quit. Like Old Hack said, I think you may just need to broaden your sights a little.
 
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Susan Coffin

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For grins and giggles... its not that I want to stop after a few rejections, a few no hear backs...

Well...seems there's a lot of grinning and giggling going on here... :roll::poke:

I'm just hitting a brick wall. I have not been able to find many publishers for my genre. I've found a lot of Paranormal erotica, or Paranormal Romance (fiction), a lot of non-fiction new age paranormal as it relates to the spiritual or metaphysical, but not non-fiction "ghost hunting". Those I have found that do publish non-fiction ghost hunting type books are more interested in collections of stories from all over the country (and/or world), and not one specific localized area.

Yeah, but a few publishers are not many. Here's an idea. Go to the bookstore or library, look up ghost hunting books, and see who their publishers are. See if the authors list their agents.

Same goes with agents. I tried querying a few agents when the agent working on my pet care book stated he has no resources for this genre as it's not his expertise. I got nowhere there either which is why I decided to keep going it alone.

A few agents? Go to query tracker and start looking there.

So its not that the book doesn't have merits. I've passed it out to unbiased samplers (readers who don't know me personally and have no problems stating if they like the book or not) and they seemed to find it interesting and unique... and I'm proud of the work. I'm just having problems with finding the right publishers to get the word out to.

That's my main issue at the moment and why I've got a shaky finger on the kindle publish button. lol

Excellent. Good luck!
 

kaitie

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I was going to agree with looking up books about ghosts and see who published those. I wouldn't even limit it to ghost hunting in particular. I'd look for anything that ran in the paranormal range of weird that might be similar and submit to them.

Same for agents. Look up non-fiction agents and submit to them. You can try to find out who agents were for specific books, or you can look at other books they've represented. I'm the sort who will send to everyone who doesn't specifically say they don't represent it. I had a weird, genre bending book that I sent out, and my agent is calling it something different than what I did in my queries. That's okay with me.

Point being, I imagine if I was making up a list, I'd be able to come up with at least fifty or sixty agents and quite a few publishers. No guarantee that the publishers would accept unsolicited queries, but they're definitely out there. It's better to err on the side of too loose than too specific in this case. The worst that happens is you get a few more rejections.
 

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my suggestion is to start with agents (you haven't so far, but that's fine, you haven't queried many publishers). If you exhaust those, try publishers. If you exhaust those, and you still want the book out there, self-publish.

And now's an excellent time to look for similar books. A lot of book stores have stands for ghost stories and hunting books
 

Mayusan

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Mayusan, putting your book up on Kindle yourself is self-publishing it. You need to be clear about this before you proceed.

And there are plenty of publishers and agencies which publish esoteric non-fiction: I know, I used to work for them.

I think you're focussing too narrowly on the word "paranormal" and not thinking laterally about how such books are defined.

um... I don't know where you get that I'm not clear about putting the book on Kindle being self-publishing... in my original post I did state, "I decided it was time to try SELF e-PUBLISHING (on Kindle)"

I also know there are non-fiction publishers... but you can't deny there is a LOT of erotic fiction. I'm going through the background checks thread, and after now nearly 70 pages, the majority of publishers I've found (at least that have good standing with members here), publish Erotic fiction and do not deal in non-fiction. Not all, but most.

I've also not simply defined my genre as paranormal, at least not originally. I defined it as Non-Fiction "other", non-fiction "New Age", I've even looked into Gothic and horror (Though I found little non-fiction in those genres). However, if you look at the submission guidelines, few of them are interested in "ghost hunting" books. Those that don't make that clear state so in their rejection letter. (One told me their vision of new age is more as it relates to a metaphysical and/or spiritual journey. She would have been more likely to consider it if I had a psychic on my investigative team and focused on his or her findings).
 
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Terie

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um... I don't know where you get that I'm not clear about putting the book on Kindle being self-publishing...

I'd imagine it was from this, in the post immediately before the one you quoted:

I can not afford self-publishing. I was only thinking of Kindle because the direct publishing is no-charge.

:D
 

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The great think abut Kindle is that you can publish a book and then take it off the market at anytime, unlike being tied to a contract with a publisher. I tried to kindle a book and had little succes in terms of sales and deicded, cap in hand, to tell my publisher about the failed indie venture. The publisher sent me a contract for the book, published it and we made a bit more money with it than I would of the going the indie route, so I guess in my case it wasn't a case of being shunned by a trad publisher after having had a shot at going indie. It's the marketing that is the biggest headache, but with a niche market like ghost-hunting you may be able to make an impact without using an agent, major pub.
 

kaitie

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um... I don't know where you get that I'm not clear about putting the book on Kindle being self-publishing... in my original post I did state, "I decided it was time to try SELF e-PUBLISHING (on Kindle)"

I've also not simply defined my genre as paranormal, at least not originally. I defined it as Non-Fiction "other", non-fiction "New Age", I've even looked into Gothic and horror (Though I found little non-fiction in those genres). However, if you look at the submission guidelines, few of them are interested in "ghost hunting" books. Those that don't make that clear state so in their rejection letter. (One told me their vision of new age is more as it relates to a metaphysical and/or spiritual journey. She would have been more likely to consider it if I had a psychic on my investigative team and focused on his or her findings).

That's why I was saying don't look for someone saying "I'm interested in ghost-hunting." Look for people accepting anything similar, and then as long as they don't say "I don't accept ghost-hunting" they're a candidate. You might get more that say, "This isn't really what I represent," but very, very few agents are going to be specific enough to say they're looking for ghost-hunting books. I always say in regard to novels that it's frustrating how many agents will say, "I'm looking for a great novel that's well-written and has interesting characters" in their guidelines because it's just so vague as to be meaningless. That sort of thing is very common.

You're better off looking at other books they've placed as a starting point, but as long as they don't say they're opposed to ghost stories, they're still a viable option in my book.
 

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I have looked up Ghost books. I went to my local book store, I looked them up on Amazon.com... the ones I found either were ones I did submit too, were not accepting submissions, or at least, unsolicited submissions, or were self-publishing ventures themselves.

My proposal is pretty solid. I worked on it for months before starting to submit it to anyone. Although my agent is not knowledgeable in this genre, he was able to help me with a template he found most successful with publishers he worked with, and from there I adhered it to my book.

I spent months researching the profitability of this book theme, the world-wide appeal of this theme, the popularity of ghost themed reality shows (world wide), I did a comparative analysis of similarly themed books, how much they sold for, how many copies they sold, how mine is different and/or better in certain ways. I included how I, as the author, would help in getting the word about the book out. I also include 3 sample chapters.

So I really feel the proposal is solid.
 

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My thing about looking to get an agent at this point... I will obviously have to disclose how many publishers I've queried, how many rejections I've received and how many no-answers I have had.

I was basically told a while back that this information could be a serious deal breaker to any reputable agent. They don't want to have their resources lessened by having a potential writer already be rejected by some of the resources.

So I don't know how far I would get at this point looking for an agent.

Not only that, but I would also have to explain that I am currently with another agent for this book. Despite the fact that agent gave the okay to find an agent who can better represent this book (since he has no resources for this genre), other agents may not be as cool with me already having an agent.
 
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If you explain the situation clearly, you should be okay. I did a quick search for authors of non-fiction esoterica, and found at least five agents interested. In a minute of searching. Granted, these may be agents you've already contacted. This isn't my area of expertise, at all, but I think you've got a wider field than you think.
 

kaitie

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My thing about looking to get an agent at this point... I will obviously have to disclose how many publishers I've queried, how many rejections I've received and how many no-answers I have had.

I was basically told a while back that this information could be a serious deal breaker to any reputable agent. They don't want to have their resources lessened by having a potential writer already be rejected by some of the resources.

So I don't know how far I would get at this point looking for an agent.

Not only that, but I would also have to explain that I am currently with another agent for this book. Despite the fact that agent gave the okay to find an agent who can better represent this book (since he has no resources for this genre), other agents may not be as cool with me already having an agent.

Did your agent have anyone to recommend? I'd be upfront with the situation in the query letter. Actually having an agent might not be as much of a detriment as you think. It could also knock you up a level and have you taken more seriously because it shows that you're already at a publishable level.
 

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I don't know. If you've established extensive connections with the paranormal community, self-pubbing a nonfiction account might not be a bad idea. Before you hit that button, though, make sure you've devised a solid marketing and promotion plan and are ready to put it in motion.

And, yes, either wait until you hear back from any publishers with the MS or withdraw the book before moving forward on your own.
 
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Mayusan

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Did your agent have anyone to recommend? I'd be upfront with the situation in the query letter. Actually having an agent might not be as much of a detriment as you think. It could also knock you up a level and have you taken more seriously because it shows that you're already at a publishable level.

He gave me 2 that he believed could help me, despite them not specifically saying the deal with that genre, however, one did say they are unable to take any new clients at the moment, and one did not reply.

I may try to see if I can look into an agent and hope that having an agent for my other project, and the fact I've already queried publishers for this one, won't cause me to be tossed out on my tushy.

This afternoon my mom just birthday gifted me the "2012 Writers Market", and "Guide to Book Publishers, Editors, and Literary Agents - 2011", both of which have agent and publisher listings. So I may peek through their list of agents and give it a go... but I'm going to hold the self e-publishing on Kindle as a final option.

Thanks for all your advice everyone. I'm still not quite ready to give up on the project and seeing it published traditionally. I really feel this is the best work I've ever done. It's unique, there is nothing like it on the market currently (at least not on this particular topic), and right now the genre is really hot thanks to shows like "Fact or Faked" and "Ghost Hunters". (Which is on the Syfy channel, seen in over 50 countries).

So I'm not quite ready to give up. I'm just so new at this. That's my problem. I should probably never have tried it alone in the first place. I'm too green.
 
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