he would have had to have put

missesdash

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So my grammar is usually pretty solid, but I've realized that writing a book makes me question a lot of the things I say.

I'm writing my MS in first person past tense. Every so often, she'll discuss something that happened before and I lapse into this strange past past tense. I know there's a technical term for it.


But it's like this.

Narrating: He had a good time
flashback: he'd had a good time (he had had a good time?)

Is this wrong? Is there something basic I don't understand?
 

Snick

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It is the pluperfect or superperfect tense. I don't know which term is more popular, but pluperfect is what I learned in school.
 

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But it's like this.

Narrating: He had a good time
flashback: he'd had a good time (he had had a good time?)

Is this wrong? Is there something basic I don't understand?
It's not wrong, but you can end up with a significant number of instances of 'had' in the flashback if you stick with that tense. To overcome this, it's not uncommon to use that tense as you transition into the flashback, then to revert to plain past tense for the bulk of it, and to transition through that tense on the way back, to guide the reader.
 

missesdash

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It's not wrong, but you can end up with a significant number of instances of 'had' in the flashback if you stick with that tense. To overcome this, it's not uncommon to use that tense as you transition into the flashback, then to revert to plain past tense for the bulk of it, and to transition through that tense on the way back, to guide the reader.


Ahhhh, Okay, I understand. I hadn't noticed that at all. It is much more attractive that way. Thanks for the tip.
 

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'had had', like Snick sez,is pluperfect (past perfect too): it's mixes tense 'had' and 'aspect' 'had' (i.e. a specific time ('had' past) + an action that had already occured at the time of that past verb (had had)). contrast it to tense and aspect where the action is continuing in the past: Feeling his way, he made his way home.

You say you use this one frequently?
 

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I've never heard it called pluperfect or superperfect before. I've always heard past perfect.
 

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Ahhhh, Okay, I understand. I hadn't noticed that at all. It is much more attractive that way. Thanks for the tip.

Isn't that a great tip? Usually it's just the first sentence or two that includes the hads. Then the last sentence or so of the section that's in the different timeframe goes back to having hads. It's almost like framing a mini-flashback.
 

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I've never heard it called pluperfect or superperfect before. I've always heard past perfect.

They keep changing terms. Perfect means completed. Past perfect means that something was completed in the past (have walked) in contrast to the past imperfect, continuing action in the past (was walking or used to walk) and the simple past (walked). Pluferfect is for past actions that occurred before something else in the past, as in: "I had walked before my leg was amputated." Apparently they are calling the past perfect something else these days, if the pluperfect is being called "past perfect".
 
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Two of my books were in First Person, past tense and man o man the "was's" and the "had's" I was stuck having to fix. Present tense is the easiest for me. (just my take)
 

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So my grammar is usually pretty solid, but I've realized that writing a book makes me question a lot of the things I say.

I'm writing my MS in first person past tense. Every so often, she'll discuss something that happened before and I lapse into this strange past past tense. I know there's a technical term for it.


But it's like this.

Narrating: He had a good time
flashback: he'd had a good time (he had had a good time?)

Is this wrong? Is there something basic I don't understand?

I don't think it's technically wrong, but it's a bit awkward and unwieldy.
I'd find a different way to phrase it.
 

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"On your trip to Boston, did you get scrod?"
"That's the first time I've heard it put in the pluperfect subjunctive."
 

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"On your trip to Boston, did you get scrod?"
"That's the first time I've heard it put in the pluperfect subjunctive."


You beat me to this New England joke.
 

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They keep changing terms. Perfect means completed. Past perfect means that something was completed in the past (have walked) in contrast to the past imperfect, continuing action in the past (was walking or used to walk) and the simple past (walked). Pluferfect is for past actions that occurred before something else in the past, as in: "I had walked before my leg was amputated." Apparently they are calling the past perfect something else these days, if the pluperfect is being called "past perfect".

Could just be that we're in different regions. I'll ask my linguistics teacher about it. He's fairly knowledgeable.
 

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Could just be that we're in different regions. I'll ask my linguistics teacher about it. He's fairly knowledgeable.

I am curious about it. I wonder if some people aren't distinguishing between the perfect and the pluperfect, or it might just be a misunderstanding. I can't think of any reason why the pluperfect would fall out of use. I is useful and different from the other tenses. I can't imagine it being regional.
 

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I am curious about it. I wonder if some people aren't distinguishing between the perfect and the pluperfect, or it might just be a misunderstanding. I can't think of any reason why the pluperfect would fall out of use. I is useful and different from the other tenses. I can't imagine it being regional.

Don't get too confused about it. "Pluperfect" and "past perfect" refer to the same construction. The terms have a different theoretic context, but that's not too important for writers.

Pluperfect is a latinate term. There is a tense (an inflection of the verb) in latin called the "plus quam perfectum" (or similar), which morphed into "pluperfect" in English (and "Plusquamperfect" in German, for example). Traditional grammar treats it as a tense of its own.

Most recent grammars distinquish between tense and aspect: It's past tense, and perfect aspect (for short "past perfect" and you can add the term "tense" to that that).

The aspects are: simple, perfect and continuous.

The "imperfect aspect" you mentioned does exist, although it's a different distinction: "perfective vs. imperfective aspect". The perfective aspect is roughly equivalent with the simple aspect, and the imperfective aspect is roughly equivalent to the continuous aspect. (I say roughly, because theories never quite match.)

To confuse matters further, there is an "imperfect tense", which is latinate, too. In English that would be "past continuous" or "past imperfective", but in Latin it's a tense of its own.

Using the latinate terms like this is sort of controversial, though the fit, as far as I understand it - I'm not really that qualified, is better for the pluperfect than the imperfect.

In the end, it doesn't matter much which terms you use, as long as your understood. "Pluperfect" is less common than "past perfect", but it's still not obscure.

I've never heard "superperfect" and a superficial google search only gives me this thread.
 

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I am curious about it. I wonder if some people aren't distinguishing between the perfect and the pluperfect, or it might just be a misunderstanding. I can't think of any reason why the pluperfect would fall out of use. I is useful and different from the other tenses. I can't imagine it being regional.

I'm used to past perfect, although pluperfect came in with my (painfully awkward) Latin taster course. Maybe it's just down to diachronic/synchronic changes to lexis...? Linguists love to shift the goal posts every now again just to make sure we're awake.
 
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Don't get too confused about it. "Pluperfect" and "past perfect" refer to the same construction. The terms have a different theoretic context, but that's not too important for writers.

Pluperfect is a latinate term. There is a tense (an inflection of the verb) in latin called the "plus quam perfectum" (or similar), which morphed into "pluperfect" in English (and "Plusquamperfect" in German, for example). Traditional grammar treats it as a tense of its own.

Most recent grammars distinquish between tense and aspect: It's past tense, and perfect aspect (for short "past perfect" and you can add the term "tense" to that that).

The aspects are: simple, perfect and continuous.

The "imperfect aspect" you mentioned does exist, although it's a different distinction: "perfective vs. imperfective aspect". The perfective aspect is roughly equivalent with the simple aspect, and the imperfective aspect is roughly equivalent to the continuous aspect. (I say roughly, because theories never quite match.)

To confuse matters further, there is an "imperfect tense", which is latinate, too. In English that would be "past continuous" or "past imperfective", but in Latin it's a tense of its own.

Using the latinate terms like this is sort of controversial, though the fit, as far as I understand it - I'm not really that qualified, is better for the pluperfect than the imperfect.

In the end, it doesn't matter much which terms you use, as long as your understood. "Pluperfect" is less common than "past perfect", but it's still not obscure.

I've never heard "superperfect" and a superficial google search only gives me this thread.

I looked at a few places, including one in print and it did not differentiate between the past perfect (I have eaten) and the pluperfect (I had eaten).

Are you saying that you regard those two tenses as the same, or am I missing another distinction? Or am I making a distinction that some others do not?

I have only seen the term "superperfect" a couple of times, and those might have been in high school French classes; although the French term for the pluperfect is plus que parfait.
 
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Snick

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After looking some more I found that there is at least one more tense in the English language than there is in the one that is being written about these days. It appears that the distinction between the simple past (I ate) and the past perfect (i have eaten) is no longer being made, and the term "past perfect" has been shifted to the pluperfect.

On the other hand this might be evidence that I have been transported to a different planet; one where the languages are subtly different.
 

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It appears that the distinction between the simple past (I ate) and the past perfect (i have eaten) is no longer being made, and the term "past perfect" has been shifted to the pluperfect.

Um, "have eaten" has never been called "past perfect". It's always been "present perfect".

That's because in a two-verb construction the auxiliary verb carries the tense.

Perfect aspect:

Infinitive: to have eaten

"Eaten" doesn't ever change, but "have" inflects for tense:

Present tense: have/has eaten
Past tense: had eaten

In combination:

Present tense/perfect aspect ("Present Perfect"): have eaten
Past tense/perfect aspect ("Past Perfect"): had eaten

It's really that simple. Present/Past goes with the tense of the auxiliary verb, while the type of auxiliary verb + type of participle determines the aspect.
 

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Um, "have eaten" has never been called "past perfect". It's always been "present perfect".

That's because in a two-verb construction the auxiliary verb carries the tense.

Perfect aspect:

Infinitive: to have eaten

"Eaten" doesn't ever change, but "have" inflects for tense:

Present tense: have/has eaten
Past tense: had eaten

In combination:

Present tense/perfect aspect ("Present Perfect"): have eaten
Past tense/perfect aspect ("Past Perfect"): had eaten

It's really that simple. Present/Past goes with the tense of the auxiliary verb, while the type of auxiliary verb + type of participle determines the aspect.

If that is the case now, then I have definitely been moved to a parallel world.
 

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It not be such a bad place, Snick: beer's cheaper ;)
 

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It not be such a bad place, Snick: beer's cheaper ;)

The beer isn't cheaper, but there are some strange brands that I hadn't noticed before. Some of those brands are good, but some are not. I guess that it is a slightly better places, because there are moe brabds of beer and ale.
 

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I have nothing of value to add. I just wanted to say I love the word 'pluperfect'. Always have, always will. It's fun to say.

I also like 'had had', 'would have had' and all of that sort and probably overuse them in my writing.