A Dance with Dragons by George R. R. Martin

[Parametric]

SPOILER THREAD for discussion of A Dance with Dragons, the fifth book of George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, released on the 12th of July. You may encounter HIDEOUS UNMARKED SPOILERS for anything up to and including A Dance with Dragons, including the TV series and the tie-in Dunk & Egg short stories.

[Parametric]

So...

Holy shit. :eek:

Just about every crackpot Targaryen theory either came true or was strongly hinted at. We now have two living Targaryens, plus two suggested Targaryen bastards: Tyrion and Jon. A Targaryen finally invaded Westeros, but not the one everyone was thinking of.

Jon has been stabbed repeatedly and appears dead.

Stannis is also supposedly dead.

The northmen are staggeringly badass. Wyman Manderly killed three Freys and cooked them in pies and laughed as he ate them. Also the north apparently creates badass girls: Alys Karstark, the Manderly kid, and Lyanna Mormont, the She-Bear, to name but three.

Barristan Selmy and Davos Seaworth are vying for the title of nicest guy most in need of a hug.

Cersei was ritually humiliated, and Qyborg-Gregor is going to be her champion in her trial by combat.

Poor Theon has won back my sympathy by dint of being wretchedly abused and traumatised.

Did I miss anything?

[BunnyMaz]

Some thoughts.

I do not trust this Karstark bastard's claim to having killed Stannis. Undoubtedly, Stannis was a complete idiot, but I would not have expected even an ignoble death of his to happen off-page. Not to mention the bastard seems a tricksy sort of fellow. I do hate his wife with a burning passion though, so would quite like to see her brought low.

I do not believe that Jon is dead. But if he is, I expect an opening chapter in the next book to be from Snow/Ghost's POV. Wildly unsupported fan wankery follows! All the Starks die. Except maybe Sansa. All are reborn wargily into their wolves. Except Sansa who is too much of a pussy to be a warg. Stark direwolf pack grows into the hundreds and transforms the North into an uninhabited waste, slaying any Southron men that dare set foot near there. Children of the forest, giants, wildlings and wargs retake the North in their stead. The wall falls when whoever tries to replace Jon finds the wildlings are a- less happy to meekly fall before some arsehole who thinks they're savages and b- much harder to fend off when on both sides of the wall.

I totally get where people are getting the Jon-is-dragon thing. We know nothing of his mother, but we do know his aunt was raped and butchered by the last Targaryen king. But whenceforth this theory of Tyrion-is-Targaryen? We know for a fact that Tyrion's father was the late Tywin Lannister and his mother was the same mother shared by Cersei and Jaime.

Three headed dragon may need a rethink. We have two definite heads- Dany and her suddenly reappeared brother. If Snow is one, he definitely isn't dead, but if he is dead then I don't see how Tyrion can be one. He knows a shit-ton about dragons for sure, but I don't see how he has any more dragonsblood in him than any other blonde-ish noble in Westeros. I absolutely do not want any of the Greyjoys or other Ironborn getting a dragon. I hope Dany laughs in pirateface pork-scratching-hand's face when he comes to her to try and take her for his own.

I slightly mislike where ADWD is headed. A major player (previously thought dead Targaryen prince whose name I have forgotten) turns up in the latter half of the game, just as the only current pretender to Tommen's throne apparently dies. I don't like having my many books worth of theorising made worthless by deus ex machina, so I dearly hope that isn't what this new lad will turn out to be.

Cyborg Gregor! Undead like Mrs Ned whose name I have also temporarily forgotten? Headless and undead, with his skull actually really for real being sent to the Dornish?

I wanted more Sam! Poor, poor scared Sam Tarly. How is he?

Also, Children of the forest still live! People turned into tree-root zombies in totally creepy ways!

Theon totally had his genitals flayed and cut off as well as fingers and toes. They never said it out loud, but he blatantly did.

[BunnyMaz]

Another thought.

Has anyone else noticed how MESSILY everyone in the books eats? I mean, everyone from the lowest peasant to vain Queen Cersei is described at some point as eating meat in such a way that liquid fat and blood drips down their chins. Even fruit gets sprayed across their faces. Every time we have a scene where some nobles are gathering to discuss issues of political intrigue and they decide to have a working lunch, I have this image of them doing it all covered in grease and gravy and blood. I dread to think how they look after their apparently semi-regular breakfasts of porridge.

Can you imagine what would happen if you gave them spag bol for dinner?

[Emerson]

I loved the book.

Best thing in it was Wyman Manderly and his Frey pies.

[MkMoore]

Manderly was awesome! I laughed so hard...

As far as JON....It doesn't make ANY sense for him to be dead. There are just too many unfulfilled promises. If GRRM has just killed him off to MESS with us, then I will lose most of my respect for him. He either has to live through it or be revived.

I wouldn't necessarily count on Aegon for a dragon. He's a wild card at the moment.

Not sure how Tyrion could be a Targaryen (some theory I've missed?), but I've always thought it would be badass if he got a dragon. I totally called him joining up with Dany. I'm annoyed he never actually got there, since he could have completely fixed everything she screwed up.

I have to wonder, though, what was the point of Quentyn Martell? A whole plotline just to end with death by dragonfire?

[Parametric]

The fans have been theorising for years that Tyrion is the bastard son of Aerys Targaryen and thus one of the three heads of the dragon. As I understand it, the evidence is:

(1) Tyrion is obsessed with dragons and often dreams about them;
(2) Tyrion is often referred to as a bastard, such as his frequent refrain that "all dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes"; and
(3) it would be awesome.

In the latest book Barristan confirmed that Aerys was interested in Tyrion's mother, Joanna Lannister, taking "liberties" at her wedding. It's not proof, but I think it's a strong hint that one of the fandom's favourite theories may in future be confirmed.

[MkMoore]

That makes sense, I guess...I'll have to look for that when I reread. It would be awesome.

[BunnyMaz]

In the latest book Barristan confirmed that Aerys was interested in Tyrion's mother, Joanna Lannister, taking "liberties" at her wedding.

Problem there is, Tyriom is the youngest child. That would make a better argument for Jaime and Cersei, depending on how soon after the marriage they were born, than for Tyrion.

[Parametric]

Problem there is, Tyriom is the youngest child. That would make a better argument for Jaime and Cersei, depending on how soon after the marriage they were born, than for Tyrion.

Oh, I know. I'm not suggesting that Aerys slept with Joanna on her wedding night - that would have been a scandal of apocalyptic proportions. I just think that after Barristan's story, it's a lot more likely that Aerys was involved with Joanna in some way, possibly leading to Tyrion. It's not a rock-solid theory at the moment, but I could definitely see the series going that way.

[dragonjax]

Part of the problem with reading ADWD for long nights this week is that I clearly missed some big things. Case in point: Frey pie. DAMN IT. I'd say I need to reread, but no. No!

The Tyrion-as-Targaryen possibility is AWESOME. Oh MAN. That would be fabulous.

Here's the thing, though: if that's the case, the dragon would then have four heads: Dany, Aegon, Tyrion...and Jon. Because Jon has to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Not a rape. A secret love. And when Lyanna lay dying, she got her brother Ned to swear to raise Jon as his own bastard, to protect him from the wrath of King Robert, who would have slaughtered baby Jon. And we're going to witness this a la Super Bran, who now has the spiffy ability to see the past. It's gonna ROCK!!!

So yeah - the dragon would have four heads. Which we can't have. I'm thinking that Aegon won't be long for Westeros. He's too new to the series, and throws everything off. He's also, clearly, perfect, as per the Spider: he sounds like the ultimate Gary Stu. (Or maybe that's a Targaryen thing; there are times when Dany is borderline Mary Sue.)

And OMG. Jon is SO not dead. Nope. No way. Nuh uh. But PLEASE don't bring him back from the dead a la Gregor/Robert Strong. Or Berric. Or Catelyn. Jon deserves more than that. (But then, Ned deserved more than getting his head chopped off in book one.)

Coldhands has to be Benjen. Right?

And goodbye, Kevan and Pyrelle. Dude. Just...dude.

[Parametric]

My secret theory is that Aegon represents the classic fantasy hero. He's the secret heir to the throne, raised in exile by loyal retainers, trained to be a king - he's basically Garion from the Belgariad. And he's going to be eaten alive. :D

[jgold]

Yeah. Jon can't be dead. That white dragon was just made for him.

So, about the epilogue... which I loved. So nice to get a clue about Varys' motivation after all this time. And I can't help but wonder if Varys is in service to the same temple where Arya's been?

I agree that Aegon is going to die a horrible freaking death.

[NoGuessing]

I don't think Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys. Tywin would have killed him.

[NoGuessing]

Also, Wyman Manderley is the first Mafia boss of Westeros.

[NoGuessing]

My secret theory is that Aegon represents the classic fantasy hero. He's the secret heir to the throne, raised in exile by loyal retainers, trained to be a king - he's basically Garion from the Belgariad. And he's going to be eaten alive. :D

You think Manderley will be the one to get him?:tongue

[Parametric]

I don't think Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys. Tywin would have killed him.

I'm not so sure he would have cold-bloodedly murdered the infant son of his beloved wife. We do know that Tywin visited some serious wrath on Aerys, slaughtering his entire family and brutally sacking his city. Moreover, we know one major reason Tywin was so pissed off was that Aerys raised Jaime to the Kingsguard, deliberately leaving Tywin with only Tyrion as his heir... which would be an insult on a whole new level if Aerys had fathered Tyrion himself. I'm not a hundred percent wedded to the theory, but I do find it increasingly plausible.

[Parametric]

You think Manderley will be the one to get him?:tongue

Ha! I would find that most excellent. :tongue

[Irysangel]

Oh, I know. I'm not suggesting that Aerys slept with Joanna on her wedding night - that would have been a scandal of apocalyptic proportions.

Really? I thought it was a nod to the droit du seigneur:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

[Parametric]

Really? I thought it was a nod to the droit du seigneur:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

I don't think so. We know from the Barristan Selmy scene in A Dance with Dragons that the droit du seigneur had been abolished prior to the wedding of Tywin and Joanna Lannister. We also know from A Storm of Swords that during the bedding the newlyweds are basically carried upstairs by all the guests, so it wouldn't be possible to sleep with the bride on her wedding night without everybody knowing about it. That's why I'm saying that Aerys can't have slept with Joanna on her wedding night - people would have known, it would have been illegal, and there would have been a scandal. None of the above happened.

[MkMoore]

And OMG. Jon is SO not dead. Nope. No way. Nuh uh. But PLEASE don't bring him back from the dead a la Gregor/Robert Strong. Or Berric. Or Catelyn. Jon deserves more than that. (But then, Ned deserved more than getting his head chopped off in book one.)

Coldhands has to be Benjen. Right?



Coldhands is probably Benjen. He kept his face covered while he was with Bran, and I always thought it was weird that he just "vanished."

If Jon is alive (or is reborn), then he's probably Azor Ahai. I was kind of mad when I finished the book, but I'm pretty much convinced this is where he's heading now. If he really is dead, I'm going to be furious.

[thothguard51]

Very few characters in this series are really dead it seems. They keep popping back up in one way or another...

[TCnKC]

I felt like it was hinted at that Jon was Azor Ahai well before his final scene in ADWD. IMO, Stannis was always just a red herring.

And wow, that was a great scene at the end.

[NoGuessing]

Does anyone else think AFFC and ADWD could have been one book? I also don't believe Martin can finish this in two books unless people get moving quick smart.

Ser Barristan was the star of the book for me.

[TCnKC]

Does anyone else think AFFC and ADWD could have been one book? I also don't believe Martin can finish this in two books unless people get moving quick smart.

Ser Barristan was the star of the book for me.


AFFC & ADWD definitely could've been structured better. I think even Martin himself would admit that. The first 300-400 pages of ADWD were basically just rehashing events of AFFC in different character POVs.

With that said, ADWD was still a much better read than AFFC IMO. There's so many exciting things set up for the next book.

[NoGuessing]

ADWD was full of awesome little things, but I think the book lacked some real oomph. The first three are structured perfectly, whereas the last two have been full of lots of fluffing around.

The revelation of the fake (imo) Aegon and Jon Connington was memorable, along with Barristan being awesome and Jon's "death" right at the end, but I didn't like the book as much as I wanted to. Tyrion one liners do not a book make (though it's a great start).

[dragonjax]

I felt like it was hinted at that Jon was Azor Ahai well before his final scene in ADWD. IMO, Stannis was always just a red herring.

Agreed that Stannis is a red herring. Considering his devotion to being just, shouldn't he abdicate his claim to the Iron Throne to Danaerys? Or, truly, Aegon?

If Jon is Azor Ahai, then the red comet at the end of AGOT heralded Jon's coming? Meh. I dunno -- I still think that Dany is Azor Ahai. Didn't they say in either AFFC or ADWD that the interpretation of the AA legend had falsely assigned AA a gender -- when dragons are either genderless or can change genders (I don't remember which), so instead of it foretelling a prince, it could easily have foretold a princess? Or am I completely misremembering?

[BunnyMaz]

I thought Azor Ahai was the red god avatar, unrelated to the dragon legend. Are they the same thing?

Personally I hope Jon isn't. Only because I detest absolutely everything to do with the red god and the faith that surrounds it.

[robeiae]

It would make a lot more sense--to me--if Jaime and Cersei were the children of Aerys. 'Twould explain their passion for incest, no? Tywin might not have ever known.

Beyond that, I found the Brandon storyline to be rather pointless. So, he's gonna be a tree? Whoopee.

And what I want more of are the Sand Snakes...

[Emerson]

ADWD was full of awesome little things, but I think the book lacked some real oomph. The first three are structured perfectly, whereas the last two have been full of lots of fluffing around.

The revelation of the fake (imo) Aegon and Jon Connington was memorable, along with Barristan being awesome and Jon's "death" right at the end, but I didn't like the book as much as I wanted to. Tyrion one liners do not a book make (though it's a great start).

I think between AFFC and ADWD it's obvious that GRRM never really wanted to write these books in the first place. Now that we're past this period of time I bet he'll be right back on track.

[dragonjax]

It would make a lot more sense--to me--if Jaime and Cersei were the children of Aerys. 'Twould explain their passion for incest, no? Tywin might not have ever known.

Beyond that, I found the Brandon storyline to be rather pointless. So, he's gonna be a tree? Whoopee.

And what I want more of are the Sand Snakes...

Dude. That would be fabulous if Aerys and Joanna had the twins, and Joanna and Tywin had Tyrion. Fabulous!!! I think I have to root for that. :D

Yeah, I'm not into the Bran POVs either, but I figure this will be the only way readers will get to learn the truth about characters who are now long (long) dead.

Agreed: the Sand Snakes ROCK. And now, one of them is going to be on the Small Council, no? The poisoner, IIRC...

[DreamWeaver]

I felt like it was hinted at that Jon was Azor Ahai well before his final scene in ADWD. IMO, Stannis was always just a red herring.At one point Melisandre complains that she's looking for Azor Ahai in the fire, but she just keeps seeing Jon. :D

[dragonjax]

At one point Melisandre complains that she's looking for Azor Ahai in the fire, but she just keeps seeing Jon. :D

Well. Yeah. Okay. Unless it's another red herring. Remember: the signs aren't incorrect, only the interpretations. :D

[zander]

Okay - my thoughts.

In general, I much preferred this book to AFFC. It still needed some editing, and I found the Dany chapters extraordinarily frustrating. Go back to kicking ass already! Still, a really strong read, a great immersive experience, and enough action to keep me on my toes. Not quite as jaw-dropping as the first three, but solid. I hope for a return to jaw-dropping in six and seven.

I'm of two minds about Stannis. On the one hand, I don't trust Ramsay Bolton's account (and I don't think there is a single villain in literature I have wanted more dead than this guy - I really, really hate this guy) - my first thought was that he actually captured Mance and the spearwives, and learned of Stannis' magic sword from him. Or he has just one or two spearwives and that's it.

On the other hand, Stannis has been a moron for a while now, and he clearly isn't going to win the game of thrones, so there's no reason to believe he's unkillable. We've got a nice fight brewing between the wall and Winterfell (who woulda thought?) so Stannis is a little beside the point. He could easily be dead. Although that would eliminate the Bank of Braavos thread, which is intending to bear fruit later, I'm sure.

I think Jon will be back, either resurrected by Melisandre, or in Ghost, (what an appropriate name now) or some combination thereof. He's now released from his vows so he can do whatever he wants, right?

I totally didn't get that Manderly was cooking Freys. Where was this? Specifically, what page? I want to read it again.

I think Dany becomes Khaleesi of this new Khal after killing the guy in combat and goes on to destroy the Yunkish army before heading on the Demon Road. We have to see the Demon Road, or Valyria, there's been a lot of build up there.

I think that Aegon will be toast at some point.

I also think Bran is going to inhabit a dragon and blow the hell out of some Others.

The Quentyn Martell thing is vexing. I'm not sure it's not all part of Doran Martell's grand plan though - he's been so cautious and sly this whole time, I can't believe sending six guys to wed Danaerys to his uncharismatic son was his whole point.

We shall see. In five or six years. Sheesh.

[thothguard51]

I agree about Bran inhabiting a dragon. The 3 eye'd crow said he would never walk again, but he would fly...

[DreamWeaver]

I agree about Bran inhabiting a dragon. The 3 eye'd crow said he would never walk again, but he would fly...I was thinking he'd ride a dragon, but I have to say I like this whole idea...

[Alouette]

I quite liked the book, didn't love it as much as the first three and missed some of my favourite POVs but it was well written, if a bit bloated. It annoyed me that there was very little conclusion to any of the story lines, some of which have been around since Feast. The multiple cliffhangers made for an unsatisfying end. I find I'm liking Dany less and less with every book and found her chapters pretty boring. Loved the Theon chapters - shows what a great writer GRRM is that I went from hating him to feeling really bad for him. Liked the Arya chapters, found the Melisandre one really interesting and liked the Jon chapters more than I have in previous books. I don't really see how he can finish the series in 2 books though. Dany hasn't even started heading towards Westeros, nor does it seem like she will any time soon. I'm hoping that the next book will be more like the first 3 in terms of action. I don't think I can stand anymore travelogues!

Well. Yeah. Okay. Unless it's another red herring. Remember: the signs aren't incorrect, only the interpretations. :D

He also had a dream of himself on the wall with a burning red sword that sounds like Lightbringer in one of the previous books.

Also, the prophecy says Azor Ahai will be reborn under a bleeding red star:

Jon was stabbed while WunWun was waving around the body of Ser Patrek and the sigil of his house is a star, plus his outfit had stars, covered in blood.

From amidst salt and smoke:

- His wound was "smoking"
- Bowen Marsh's tears = salt


It could obviously be a red herring but it's an interesting idea...

[Emerson]

Personally based on my experience with the series I think there is no Azor Ahai period, and this was just the most elaborate red herring yet. Really if you think about it, having such a mythical and prophesied person actually come true doesn't mesh with the world as we know it.

[thothguard51]

Personally based on my experience with the series I think there is no Azor Ahai period, and this was just the most elaborate red herring yet. Really if you think about it, having such a mythical and prophesied person actually come true doesn't mesh with the world as we know it.

Well, Bran and Dani have already disrupted the world as it was...

I haven't finished ADWD yes, but where in the hell is Ricken? He has never been a major POV, but I suspect his story line is very closely related to Bran's.

[Emerson]

Well, Bran and Dani have already disrupted the world as it was...

I haven't finished ADWD yes, but where in the hell is Ricken? He has never been a major POV, but I suspect his story line is very closely related to Bran's.

Yes, there's obviously supernatural elements, but it would still be wholly against the theme and style of GRRM's work for a long-prophesied hero to arise just as foretold.

[thothguard51]

I suspect it will not be exactly as foretold though...

[dragonjax]

I haven't finished ADWD yes, but where in the hell is Ricken? He has never been a major POV, but I suspect his story line is very closely related to Bran's.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere, some time ago, that GRRM split Ricken away from Bran (and effectively sidelined him) because he hated writing such a young character. So maybe he'll pop up again in the sidelines...or maybe he will have mysteriously aged so that he's no longer such a young child.

[thothguard51]

Makes sense, to a point. But Ricken had dreams like Bran and if Bran can change skins...

[Emerson]

I've seen GRRM say that Rickon would never be a POV because he couldn't possibly write that young. But I don't think he would ever say that he hated writing any of his characters. And it's pretty clear that he'll be back in the next book, I think.

[dragonjax]

In a terrific EW interview (http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/12/george-martin-talks-a-dance-with-dragons/), George says Osha returns in book 6 (The Winds of Winter), so it stands to reason that we'll be seeing Rickon in book 6 as well. He should be 5 now. Will be interesting to see how he and Shaggydog are doing.

Ooh -- book 7 title: A Dream of Spring.

[Libbie]

HEY-YO! My hell-divorce has left me with little time for reading, but I finally finished the book last night while standing in line to get it signed by Mr. Martin (yay!) so here I am in the spoiler thread to share my worthless opinion! (Not so worthless, methinks, since I am one of the biggest ASOIAF fans you'll ever meet and I've read all the books but this one seven or eight times. I am mighty familiar with 'em.)

Manderly was awesome! I laughed so hard...

Dude. Let's hear it for the Titus Andronicus moment! I loved it! I also loved that Manderly's fatty-fatness saved him from death. And I loved that he (so far) hasn't confessed to making everybody eat Frey Pie. It makes it somehow more awesome, like it's a secret we all share with him.

As far as JON....It doesn't make ANY sense for him to be dead. There are just too many unfulfilled promises. If GRRM has just killed him off to MESS with us, then I will lose most of my respect for him. He either has to live through it or be revived.

This is as far as I've read so far in this thread, so hopefully somebody else has pointed this out already, but...Melisandre. Jon is in direct, friendly contact with the most powerful Red Priestess in the world (that we know of.) She seems very intent on communicating with Jon and on keeping him alive in spite of his subtle moves against Stannis. She knows he's important.

If Thoros of Myr, a shoddy and half-hearted Red Priest, could bring Berrick Dondarrion and Catelyn back from the dead so many times with the Red God's Kiss, then Melisandre can surely do the same for Jon without any trouble...if he died at all. He may well have been badly injured and may pull through on his own, with the help of his warginess.

The interesting spin on this is how it might potentially change him if he's brought back from death by R'hllor's power. Hmmmm.

And yes, I do believe Jon is too important to kill before the big final battle against the Others. The series is titled A Song of Ice and Fire, which is shown to be a direct reference to Jon when Dany is in the House of the Undying, having all those crazy-ass visions. It's not out of the realm of possibility that GRRM would kill off a character that important, but Jon's death now would seem to serve little purpose. Ned's death early on was the catalyst that set all the rest of the subplots in motion, so it served a major purpose. Jon would appear (at this point) to be of more use to the plot alive than dead. But it is GRRM, so we'll see.

Anyway, speaking of GRRM, somebody asked him last night as the reading/signing if it's hard for him to kill off his characters. He got a tiny bit emotional explaining how it is very, very difficult to do so -- how he spends chapters, sometimes whole books thinking and feeling through these characters' POVs, and he doesn't kill any of them off lightly. IF Jon is actually, permanently dead, then I think you can trust that it was done because the author felt it was the best way to serve the story, and not just to throw a curve-ball at his fans. He really doesn't seem like the kind of guy to do that to his readers.


I wouldn't necessarily count on Aegon for a dragon. He's a wild card at the moment.

My initial impression of Aegon is that he's too good and too perfect, with all his careful Varys-led training, to last in GRRM's world. More likely he'll be a martyr than a hero. He went west instead of going to find Dany, and now Dany's strength is scattered and she's only got one partially-trained dragon. Two more are still out of her reach and certainly out of her control, since she made it plain that the dragons will only allow certain riders. Now Aegon's got a long, treacherous wait for his dragon to show up...


Not sure how Tyrion could be a Targaryen (some theory I've missed?), but I've always thought it would be badass if he got a dragon. I totally called him joining up with Dany. I'm annoyed he never actually got there, since he could have completely fixed everything she screwed up.

...Meanwhile, Tyrion is quite close to the dragons. Nobody ever said that a person has to have the dragon's blood to ride a dragon. That is, the dragons won't necessarily reject a rider because he's not a Targaryen. What do dragons care about human society? Rather, the implication was that people with the blood of the dragon are fearless around the dragons, and that helps the dragons accept them. Tyrion would likely be more drawn to the dragons than fearful of them.

And yes, he is certainly the right kind of mind to assist Dany and balance her soft side. And Selmy's. I think the popular prediction that Tyrion will prove to be one of the heads of the dragon will turn out to be true.


I have to wonder, though, what was the point of Quentyn Martell? A whole plotline just to end with death by dragonfire?

No...now Aegon is in or near Dorne (I can't recall which), and Dorne will be mighty pissed that their prince is returning to them as a sack of charred bones, with the rumor that Dany laughed at his offer of marriage. Quentyn's death will be a catalyst for Dorne to turn against Daenerys, possible to spell the demise of Aegon, which will further fuel Dany's feeling that Westeros has wronged her and needs to be dragon-baked. My guess is that they'll use Myrcella against her, setting her up as a child queen...Dany has a serious reluctance to kill little children, and having a cute, somewhat pathetic, earless little girl with a sweet little boy husband on the throne will be like Kryptonite to Dany.

The Quentyn thing will prove to be more important than it seems at first blush. I think it will spell the end of Aegon, personally.

[Libbie]

And we're going to witness this a la Super Bran, who now has the spiffy ability to see the past. It's gonna ROCK!!!

We might witness it that way, but how will Jon find out? Bran can't communicate via the trees, except for a word here and there.

(Answer: Howland Reed. He's the last living person who definitely knows about Jon's true birth, and he's still hanging around the marshes somewhere. Once Jon recovers from this minor...ahem...setback, he plans to go south...and that will take him to or near Moat Cailin.)


So yeah - the dragon would have four heads. Which we can't have. I'm thinking that Aegon won't be long for Westeros. He's too new to the series, and throws everything off. He's also, clearly, perfect, as per the Spider: he sounds like the ultimate Gary Stu. (Or maybe that's a Targaryen thing; there are times when Dany is borderline Mary Sue.)I think you're right. I think Aegon is a lamb led to the slaughter.

And OMG. Jon is SO not dead. Nope. No way. Nuh uh. But PLEASE don't bring him back from the dead a la Gregor/Robert Strong. Or Berric. Or Catelyn. Jon deserves more than that. (But then, Ned deserved more than getting his head chopped off in book one.)Oh, Berric was still a good guy when he was brought back. Death changed his perspective a little, but he was still good. and he only said that it got harder to keep himself together with repeated bringings-back. Jon ought to be fine (relatively) with just one.


Coldhands has to be Benjen. Right?Obv.


And goodbye, Kevan and Pyrelle. Dude. Just...dude.:( I actually kind of liked Kevan.

My secret theory is that Aegon represents the classic fantasy hero. He's the secret heir to the throne, raised in exile by loyal retainers, trained to be a king - he's basically Garion from the Belgariad. And he's going to be eaten alive. :D

I think you are absolutely right about that, in all respects.

GRRM talked a bit last night about how typical fantasy, with the regular cast of characters and the predictable outcomes for all the good guys, is "comfort fiction." Just like comfort food, it's all you want sometimes, it's a good thing, and everybody indulges in it, even him. But that's not what he's interested in writing. He wants to write uncomfortable fiction.

That right there is the biggest clue to me that Aegon is going to meet his end. Aegon is too "comfort fiction" for ASOIAF.

I'm not so sure he would have cold-bloodedly murdered the infant son of his beloved wife.

I think he would have if he'd thought for a heartbeat that Tyrion was Aerys's bastard. Remember, Joanna died birthing Tyrion. That's why Tywin hated Tyrion so much, not because he thought Tyrion was the product of cuckolding. No man is as accursed as a kinslayer...so as long as Tywin had reason to believe Tyrion was his biological son, he wouldn't kill him, even though he hated him for "killing" Joanna. It would be easy to smother an infant with a pillow if he believed it to be not his own blood and the cause of his beloved wife's death.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced yet that Tyrion has Targaryen blood. But that won't stop him from becoming a dragon rider, methinks.

If Jon is alive (or is reborn), then he's probably Azor Ahai. I was kind of mad when I finished the book, but I'm pretty much convinced this is where he's heading now. If he really is dead, I'm going to be furious.Seems pretty obvious to me that Dany is Azor Ahai. Melisandre has already proven -- and in ADWD actually admitted -- that she's not precise with her reading of prophecy. She gets a lot right, but important details are often blurred. Such as, perhaps, the gender of Azor Ahai.

AFFC & ADWD definitely could've been structured better. I think even Martin himself would admit that. The first 300-400 pages of ADWD were basically just rehashing events of AFFC in different character POVs.


They were originally written as one book, and were intended to be one book. But he got up to 1500 manuscript pages and his editors had a little sit-down with him and convinced him to split it into two books. That was, in part, what delayed both books coming out. He had to figure out where and how to separate all that intermingled plot, all taking place within the same time frame, and organize it into two logical volumes that felt "right" together. The total ms pages for AFFC ended up being 1000 (or close to it) an ADWD ended up being over 1700 before editing.


Although that would eliminate the Bank of Braavos thread, which is intending to bear fruit later, I'm sure.

I think the Bank of Braavos is going to pay somebody with an iron coin. Just not sure who yet. ;)


I think Jon will be back, either resurrected by Melisandre, or in Ghost, (what an appropriate name now) or some combination thereof. He's now released from his vows so he can do whatever he wants, right? Yep -- if he dies and is brought back, he's free from his vows. The watch ends at death. Though whether Jon will see it that way is iffy.

I totally didn't get that Manderly was cooking Freys. Where was this? Specifically, what page? I want to read it again. You know that scene where Ramsay marries "Arya," and they have a big wedding feast, and a whole lot of pork dishes are served, and Manderly gets all excited about eating a lot of meat products...? And Lady Dustin is kind of rolling her eyes over how this is supposedly THE BEST PORK PIE IN THE WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD according to Manderly? And a few Freys are said to be missing? It's never said outright that Manderly cooked and served them, but the implication is pretty clear.


I also think Bran is going to inhabit a dragon and blow the hell out of some Others. That seems like a good possibility. I also don't see Bran committing himself to being a tree-dude long-term.

The Quentyn Martell thing is vexing. I'm not sure it's not all part of Doran Martell's grand plan though - he's been so cautious and sly this whole time, I can't believe sending six guys to wed Danaerys to his uncharismatic son was his whole point. No, no...Quentyn knew that, too. He said somewhere in one of his last chapters that the road was never TO Daenerys, but THROUGH her. Quentyn's real mission was to loose the dragons...to bring the dragons to Dorne if he could. The surest way to do that would have been by marrying Dany, but she rejected him...but his mission still stood.

Poor Quent got them out of the pit, at least.

Also, the prophecy says Azor Ahai will be reborn under a bleeding red star:

Jon was stabbed while WunWun was waving around the body of Ser Patrek and the sigil of his house is a star, plus his outfit had stars, covered in blood.

From amidst salt and smoke:

- His wound was "smoking"
- Bowen Marsh's tears = salt

Ooh! Okay, that comes closer to convincing me. That's the kind of subtlety GRRM uses. All right, I am open to either Jon or Dany being Azor Ahai reborn. Although Jon is too strong a personality to just be whatever Melisandre wants him to be. If he is AA, my guess is he takes control of the prophecy and turns it into his own thing.

[Parametric]

I think he would have if he'd thought for a heartbeat that Tyrion was Aerys's bastard. Remember, Joanna died birthing Tyrion. That's why Tywin hated Tyrion so much, not because he thought Tyrion was the product of cuckolding. No man is as accursed as a kinslayer...so as long as Tywin had reason to believe Tyrion was his biological son, he wouldn't kill him, even though he hated him for "killing" Joanna. It would be easy to smother an infant with a pillow if he believed it to be not his own blood and the cause of his beloved wife's death.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced yet that Tyrion has Targaryen blood. But that won't stop him from becoming a dragon rider, methinks.

They'd still be related. Tywin and Joanna were first cousins (http://www.towerofthehand.com/reference/t/lannister.html), so any child of Joanna's would be Tywin's first cousin once removed.

I definitely think there's been way too much bastard stuff about Tyrion for it to be a coincidence. Tywin is continually telling him that he's not his son, Tyrion makes comments about all dwarfs being bastards in their fathers' eyes, etc.

[DreamWeaver]

I definitely think there's been way too much bastard stuff about Tyrion for it to be a coincidence. Tywin is continually telling him that he's not his son, Tyrion makes comments about all dwarfs being bastards in their fathers' eyes, etc.I don't. I think it's the perfect cosmic comeuppance that Tywin "wasted" the talents of the only child who inherited his intellect.

If Tywin had loved Tyrion, he would have raised Tyrion in his own image, vicious self-serving Machiavellian value system and all. Since Tywin hated Tyrion and seems to have ignored him, Tyrion actually got to grow up as a decent human being. If Tyrion were a bastard, the story would lose so many levels of irony and so much insight into the blind stupidity we humans are capable of--even the schmott vuns like Tywin Lannister.

So--I think Tyrion is legitimate. YMMV, and I'm sure we'll find out within the final books...or not :D.

[Kaiser-Kun]

I got this theory... the red comet appeared right after Dany's dragons hatched, right? And winter arrived right before Jon's stabbing. Maybe those are their "heralds"? One of fire, one of ice?

Anyway, I just finished the book today. After reading Jon's last chapter, I think Martin must've thought this:

"A powerful, moral, clear-headed, charismatic and popular protagonist takes an important, morally-correct choice against an asshole that's gotten away with his evilness for three books, and he has the means to achieve it. STAB THAT GUY."


Oh yeah! Reading about Patchface's rants about life underwater, a certain song came to my mind...

Under the sea
Under the sea
Nobody invade us
Sack us and rape us
With impunity
We think the royal folks all suck
Under the sea we off their Mooks
We got no troubles
Life is the bubbles
Under the sea
Under the sea
Since the Drowned God rules over here
We don't hear the Rains of Castamere
Naturally
Even the Mountain an' the Hound
They start playing all day round
No sign of Others
No one shall bother
Under the sea

[playground_king]

I didn't see this discussed in this thread, but does anyone else think that woman/girl that is going to take Cercei's spot is Sansa? That might be an obvious theory around, I don't surf the web too much on this series (finally caught up) so if it's been talked to death I apologize.

*EDIT*

I was also thinking, maybe Bran will use the trees and learn about Jon Snow's true parentage since Ned probably prayed to the trees in trying to figure out what to do with Jon Snow.

[gypsyscarlett]

I didn't see this discussed in this thread, but does anyone else think that woman/girl that is going to take Cercei's spot is Sansa? That might be an obvious theory around, I don't surf the web too much on this series (finally caught up) so if it's been talked to death I apologize.

*EDIT*

I was also thinking, maybe Bran will use the trees and learn about Jon Snow's true parentage since Ned probably prayed to the trees in trying to figure out what to do with Jon Snow.

Yes. On both accounts. I've had strong suspicions that Sansa would end up on the throne since very early in the series. Lots of folks seem to underestimate her because she's quiet and outwardly passive. But her subtlety and her hesitations (Ned and Cat were always too rash) are probably her biggest strengths. She managed to stay alive
while held prisoner by the Lannisters, and now she's with Littlefinger, who I'm pretty sure will continue to teach her the arts of cunnery.

And yes- I hope, and think, we will see flashbacks of Jon's parents: L and R!

[Mark W.]

Finally read ADWD.... some thoughts.

Jon>> He ain't dead yet. Either Mel will bring him back or he will survive the knives. If he is Azor, then does that mean Longclaw will become the real Lightbringer? As you recall, the original Lightbringer needed the blood of Azor's wife to come to life. Who will Jon kill to bring his sword to life? Asha?

Any one else think that the Red God is really evil? Mel said that every time she asks the fire to reveal himself, all she sees is "snow". Does that mean the Red God is really with the Others? If he is the God of Fire, would she not see flames or a fire instead of snow? Also why is Mel's power so strong in the coldest place on the planet? Or is that due to the dragons? Either way, I got a bad feeling about R'hillor.


Danny>> Thank God she got out of that city. She got so caught up in being Queen that she forgot who she was. She is the Mother of Dragons and Rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Not Queen of Pyramids and scented baths. Maybe she will start to rock again with Drogon by her side.



Anyone else think that the books will go through a time jump in the next book or two? GRRM has hinted strongly that this Winter will be a "long winter" which could last 10-20 years. Also the Stark kids are all placed to become their uber-selves but for them to be that, it will take years of training. Sansa learning her state-craft from Littlefinger and ultimately besting him. Arya learning the tricks of the Faceless Man and returning to be uber-assassin. Bran as the mystic and treedude. Rickon will obviously be the uber-warrior in the Northman fashion but being only 5 years old, that will take at least 10-11 years to mature/train. All this training and maturing is still 10 year out for all of them. That makes me think that WoW will span many years. (not to mention that Danny has to march her army across a continent, battling all along the way, first)

Who will fight Franken-Mountain at Cersei's trial by arms? I am thinking Lancel.

All for now, more later...

[egoodlett]

Regarding Jon: I agree! He's not dead yet. I refuse to believe this. His parentage wasn't revealed yet, I think if he is going to die it can't happen until after that at least...

R'hllor is creepy as hell, but I dunno if it would be evil in and of itself, or just like... some sort of force that people misuse?

And I kind of thought Dany might be the one who will take Cersei's place on the throne? But Sansa annoys me, so that could be why I didn't even take her into consideration....

[gypsyscarlett]

Regarding Jon: I agree! He's not dead yet. I refuse to believe this. His parentage wasn't revealed yet, I think if he is going to die it can't happen until after that at least...

R'hllor is creepy as hell, but I dunno if it would be evil in and of itself, or just like... some sort of force that people misuse?

And I kind of thought Dany might be the one who will take Cersei's place on the throne? But Sansa annoys me, so that could be why I didn't even take her into consideration....

I think Jon as we knew him might be dead. But his story is definitely far from done. He'll come back changed somehow.

And I think we shall see the truth about his parents via Bran who can now see into the past. Can't wait! I'm so looking forward to seeing Lysanna and Rhaegar. (at least that's who I think his parents are)

Regarding Dany- she always seemed the most likely ..which is why I have a feeling she won't be.

[Arclight]

Agreed that Stannis is a red herring. Considering his devotion to being just, shouldn't he abdicate his claim to the Iron Throne to Danaerys? Or, truly, Aegon?

If Jon is Azor Ahai, then the red comet at the end of AGOT heralded Jon's coming? Meh. I dunno -- I still think that Dany is Azor Ahai. Didn't they say in either AFFC or ADWD that the interpretation of the AA legend had falsely assigned AA a gender -- when dragons are either genderless or can change genders (I don't remember which), so instead of it foretelling a prince, it could easily have foretold a princess? Or am I completely misremembering?

I agree - I always thought Dany would be Azor Ahai. She matches everything in the prophecy. She was born on Dragonstone, and she also was born amidst smoke and salt when she walked into Drogo's funeral pyre. She awoke the dragons out of stone (petrified eggs), and a comet heralded her rebirth. The legend of Azor Ahai said that he killed his wife to forge his great sword Lightbringer. Dany killed Drogo, but she received the dragons in exchange for his life. The sword of fire could mean the dragons, not a literal sword. As for the whole issue of Azor Ahai being male, as dragonjax said, dragons in ASOIAF are actually genderless, so maybe the gender of the hero doesn't matter.

However, it seems too obvious that Dany would be Azor Ahai. I keep thinking back to the scene in the House of the Undying - one of the coolest scenes in the whole series, by the way - and how the Undying said "the dragon has three heads". Some of the other predictions they made have already been fulfilled, but maybe there are actually three people who will wield the sword of fire and fight against the darkness. Dany and Jon Snow are obvious, but who knows who the third head of the dragon will be. Aegon seems too obvious, and I have trouble believing that he's actually the real Prince Aegon. Maybe it will be Bran, since Bran was the first person south of the Wall to know anything about the Others, and he also has a gift for prophetic dreams?

[thothguard51]

Stannis is not dead. How do I know...

http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

[playground_king]

Stannis is not dead. How do I know...

http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html


Yea I read that too. Very interesting.

[Esmeralda]

Thank you for that. Only God knows how long we'll have to wait for the next book!

[thothguard51]

Preview for season 2, as narrated by Vary's...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/29/game-of-thrones-season-2-trailer-_n_1240667.html?ref=tv&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D131127

[playground_king]

Preview for season 2, as narrated by Vary's...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/29/game-of-thrones-season-2-trailer-_n_1240667.html?ref=tv&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D131127


I saw this and am BEYOND psyched. I think this might be one of the few times I like the show/movie as much as the book. The show is just so solid.

[thothguard51]

I saw this and am BEYOND psyched. I think this might be one of the few times I like the show/movie as much as the book. The show is just so solid.

I have to agree. Not sure how much Martin has influence on the writing and storytelling in the HBO series, but I do know that he has some hand in it...

What a great April 1 it will be. AW funnies all day and season 2 of, A Game of Thrones...

[thothguard51]

Cast pictures from season 2...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/14/game-of-thrones-season-2-teaser-hbo_n_1277560.html#s680179&title=Tyrion_Lannister

Check the pictures of Millesandre and Stanus. I am not sure I agree with casting Stephen Dillane as Stanus. I imagined him bigger, broader, hairier...

I like Liam Cunningham as Davos Seaworth, (The Onion Knight), he looks the part...

April 1st, HBO, 10pm...

[Camilla Delvalle]

Finished the book today.

Poor, poor Tyrion. :(

... and Ramsay Bolton really knows how to write scary letters.

[playground_king]

I always envisioned Millesandre as sexier. Stannus I envisioned bigger too and with longer hair. Davos looks perfect. Brienne I always envisioned bigger and very unattractive.

It doesn't really matter though, I still can't wait for April 1st.

[Parametric]

Unfortunately, I imagine it's hard to get actresses to respond to a casting call for really ugly women. :tongue

[CrastersBabies]

Finished the book today.

Poor, poor Tyrion. :(

... and Ramsay Bolton really knows how to write scary letters.

I just found this thread! Yes, poor Tyrion! And poor Jon.

Ramsay, yeah, I pretty much assumed his letter was all poo-doo. But, he is a very intimidating man. What he did to poor Jeyne Poole.

[Libbie]

I always envisioned Millesandre as sexier. Stannus I envisioned bigger too and with longer hair. Davos looks perfect. Brienne I always envisioned bigger and very unattractive.

It doesn't really matter though, I still can't wait for April 1st.

The actress who's playing Brienne is 6'3". That's pretty darn big. She's almost as tall as the guy who's playing The Hound!

I remember GRRM posting a cool story on his blog about when she did her audition for the part. She came in with her face all made up to look zitty and awful, with some (well-made) false bad teeth in her mouth, so she really looked the part. I'm sure they'll use sufficient make-up to make Brienne look less pretty than the actress is in real life. :)

[thothguard51]

So Martin sits in on the casting calls? Now that is interesting...

[playground_king]

I kind of hope Millesandre is more of a main character in the next book. She seems really interesting. Oh and Martin, don't forget about Arya! She has a dang interesting story too!