writers' groups and politics

[jbmm]

hi all, new to this. Okay, I'm in a writers' group. It's a very good one. But here's my gripe: the underlying (and very far to the left, I might add) politics that seems to creep into everyone's work, not to mention in conversation before and after meetings, and during breaks. What is up with this? I'm not an extreme right wing. But neither can I stand listening to and being around these political whiners when we should be there to discuss the craft of writing. I try not to let it get to me, but after a year of this, it is about to make me crazy. I feel like the only one, the lone cheese among them, that doesn't hold such vicious and vile contempt against the evil "current administration." They need to keep this to themselves!

Help! What do I do?

[Euan H.]

[In order of preference]

1) Find another writers' group
2) Change your politics
3) Grin and bear it

[mesh138]

I get sour about politics too. Whether your a liberal or conservative, it's better to let your morals (or lack thereof) shine through in your work, and rather subtley... I'd say get a new group.

the sad thing is that everyone thinks an artist or writer is automatically leftist. People come up to me and just start bitching about George Bush, like I'm one of them. It's my pet peeve

[Sage]

Maybe start w/ a polite request that they keep politics out of the writing discussion unless it has something specifically to do with a specific piece of writing (& then to try & keep it on topic). If it's still a problem, I'd say try & find another writer's group.

Personally, I can't stand too much political discussion even if I agree w/ it. I'd just smile & nod for a while, & would probably just end up leaving if I got too fed up w/ it (off the net, I'm not very vocal). But if you feel comfortable w/ it, I'd suggest trying the request first. It could be that they don't even realize that they're doing it so much, or assume that since the discussion about it seems to get a positive response (it sounds like not many people are disagreeing w/ each other), that it's a good way to get people talking. A simple mention that not everybody enjoys it might be enough to make them more self-conscious about it.

[My-Immortal]

Quite a few of the members in my writing group are not of the same political mind as I but we've agreed to disagree and respect that each person has a right to their own beliefs. Occasionally, the topic of politics may come up - but for the most part we try to keep that and religion out of our 'writing discussions'. (None of us has the same religious backgrounds at all).

Perhaps a friendly reminder that you are all gathered to discuss writing (and not politics) might help. If not, then like the others suggested earlier, perhaps it is time to find another group.

Good luck with your problem - hopefully it is resolved soon - and welcome to AW. :)

[FolkloreFanatic]

Ask them (politely) to leave politics at the door without implying that you agree or disagree. If they refuse, find another group.

With things so bitter these days, many people find it hard not to bring up poltics, religion, etc. But there's no need to use a critique circle as a soapbox. They need to cut it out.

[reph]

If you get along particularly well with one or two others in the group, it might be worthwhile to approach them first, privately, with the idea that too much time supposedly set aside for writing-related talk is diverted to general discussion that people can have anywhere. Try to enlist these individuals' help with keeping the group on course. Let the emphasis be on the off-topic nature of the conversations, not on your disagreement with their political content.

[zornhau]

A crit group is a reciprocal arrangement based on mutual self interest, not a love in. You don't even have to like your colleagues, as long as they give good (as in useful) crits, and as long as you do the same in return. Nobody's doing anybody a favour.

If their politics interfere with how they crit your work, just say.

If you want to do it politely, try along the lines, "my target audience is broadly socially conservative, so it's not very useful to critique this from a more liberal perspective."

If you find yourself critting work with an abhorrent (to you) political message, that's fine - it's a technical exercise. You can always start your remarks: "Of course, I'm not the target audience for this, so I can comment on whether it makes an appropriate political point. Plot and style however....."

(In my group, I'm the token Baen-reading semi-libertarian who writes blood-drenched Sword and Sorcery of the kind Frank Frazetta used to illustrate. I'm surrounded by old and new left, PC feminists, possible anarchists, tree huggers and peaceniks. One of my best critters freely admits he hates my protagonist because "all he ever does is kill things, or shag them". In return, I slag him off for gaming his plots to support his naive optimism.)

[KTC]

I have to tell you, I never hear talk of politics unless I'm here at AW. I am surprised by how involved Americans are in their politics. I am in a writers group that meets once a month...about 200 people. I have never once heard talk of politics in it. I hear it every day here at AW. I'm sure it's normal for Americans to discuss it, since you do it a lot on boards of this type. I don't know what to suggest. Just grin and bear it like somebody else said...or start talking about writing...I find that writers love to talk about writing with other writers. Just try to change the topic of conversation. I know I would. I'm so politically blind I have to think before I can tell you who our Prime Minister is.

[jst5150]

Smile. Listen. Absorb. Use it as fodder for later writings. Be happy you've learned something about people's characters you can use another time. Remember there's 6 billion people in the world; all different. The ones you meet are all opportunities for your writing to grow.

Oh. And if someone steps too far over the line, punch him in the face.

[azbikergirl]

I would agree with others have posted, however, I would reiterate the advice to first talk it over with them before you decide to leave. If they don't know this is a huge issue for you, they can't change their behavior. If they're using the crit group as an outlet for their need to express their politics-related gripes, then they won't change and you'll know what you need to do.

I once read a dog training book in which the author, Myrna Milani, said that when there's a problem between you and your dog, you have four choices. I find this is true of human-human, human-job, etc relationships too:

1. Do nothing
2. Change the behavior causing the problem
3. Change the way you feel about the behavior
4. End the relationship

[Celia Cyanide]

1) Find another writers' group
2) Change your politics
3) Grin and bear it

I agree with all of the above. I respect the fact that you don't care to hear what they have to say, but I don't think it's right for you to call them "whiners," just because you don't agree.

They are allowed to express whatever political views they want in their work. That's what writing is for, to express yourself. If you don't want to read it, all you can really do is leave, because you can't ask them to stop writing it.

Before and after the group and during breaks, they can discuss what they want, as well. It's how people get to know each other. I know you are there to discuss the craft of writing, but if you even know that they express liberal political views in their work, then you must be also doing what you came there to do.

If I were in a writing group on the political right, or a writing group who talked about bands like Linkin Park all the time, I would be rather annoyed. But I would leave before I would tell them to keep themselves to themselves.

[jbmm]

Thank you all for some very interesting and diverse opinions on my dilemma. What I am most relieved about is that you all have demonstrated that I am NOT the lone cheese. My fear of leaving this very talented group of writers and facilitators is that I will go to another one just to find the same problem. Like it or not, the left leaners have taken the arts and our universities hostage. Seems, if you don't think like they do, you can't possibly have a love for words, or art of any kind. To reiterate, I am not myself a way right winger, either. I think too far in either direction can lead one astray. I guess the bottom line is, if I want to stay I will have to "grin and bear it," as one suggested.


Thanks, again.

[Jamesaritchie]

I've only belonged to one writing group, but it had a wide diversity of political and religious opinion. I am right wing, if you want to call it that, though only a bit to the right of Reagan. So were three other members of the group. But the majority were democrats, and two or three were as far to the left as you can get.

As a whole, we found grin and bear it didn't work at all. What did work was letting every know how everyone else felt and believed.

When democrats learn there are republicans in the room, and when republicans learn there are democrats in the room, politics tne dto get left at home. Or that's how it worked with us.

If, however, you're the lone wolf in a group, I'm not sure how to handle it. I'd just state my case and let the wood chips fly where they might.

[Valona]

the sad thing is that everyone thinks an artist or writer is automatically leftist. People come up to me and just start bitching about George Bush, like I'm one of them. It's my pet peeve

If you think that's bad, try being a professional environmental biologist. That's what I do for my day-job. Nearly everyone I associate with professionally is a left-leaning socialistic type, and thinks I must be a left-winger like them. It gets awkward, and since I'm in the vast minority among these people, I tend to just "grin and bear it."

As for my writing group; I have a wonderful writing group. We have 6 members and I think we're all pretty much conservative politically, even though one of the members is from Canada.

We conservative writers are out there. Have faith.

[henriette]

perhaps if you let go of the "left wingers have taken the arts and universities hostage" attitude you might find yourself open enough to consider ideas that are different from your own. stating they are "vicious and vile" because they don't support the bush government shows you aren't willing to accept their ideals and are solid in your own, which is fine. but don't expect others to stop talking about current affairs because you disagree.

[zornhau]

People sometimes assume that one view entails others from the same camp.

A fellow critter - in his cups - said more or less, "Oh, you can't be a right-wing nut because your novel has positive gay characters."

Because my anti-collectivism is often regarded as a right wing stance, he'd vaguely assumed that I should also hold other "right wing" views, including the socially conservative ones.

Thing is, Left and Right is a simplification of something more complex. The best attempt I know of to express this is at http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Suggest you take the test on that site, and get them to do the same. At worst, if you're lucky, you'll get the Left Wing Authoritarians fighting with the Left Wing Anti-Authoritarians. :box:

Otherwise console yourself that though many writers are left leaning, the biggest audiances are probably closer to your position.

[Jamesaritchie]

perhaps if you let go of the "left wingers have taken the arts and universities hostage" attitude you might find yourself open enough to consider ideas that are different from your own. stating they are "vicious and vile" because they don't support the bush government shows you aren't willing to accept their ideals and are solid in your own, which is fine. but don't expect others to stop talking about current affairs because you disagree.

It's difficult to let go of the truth. Nearly all colleges and universities are controled, tightly controlled, by left-leaning professors. I don't know about vicious and vile, but they can get incredibly nasty when anything approaching a right wing idea is even mentioned.

I don;t mind others talking about current affairs, but they must allow me the same freedom, and I've found this is very seldom allowed.

Writing groups should be about writing, not politics. If they want to talk about current affairs, they can do it on their own times.

[FolkloreFanatic]

Like it or not, the left leaners have taken the arts and our universities hostage. Seems, if you don't think like they do, you can't possibly have a love for words, or art of any kind.

Reading back, I'm unsure if it was what the group was discussing or what the group was WRITING that bothered you. If it's the former, try to steer the conversation back to writing or point out that, with the utmost respect of people's views, you'd rather discuss in line with the original intent of the group.

I want to reiterate what henriette said here, in case you missed it: someone simply discussing politics does not make them a 'whiner,' nor does it imply that the educated have been 'hijacked.'

I know I would be just as insulted if someone makes an assumption that just because I'm Christian means I'm a conservative. People do it all ofthe time, and it's just as naive an assertion as stating that educated people are all left-wing.

I hope that wasn't too off-topic. I just wanted to make sure no one thought I was advocating someone to censor political expression in their writing.

[jbmm]

jamesaritchie, thank you for what you said about colleges and universities. It was getting pretty bad when I went back in the mid eighties. Nowadays, it's downright scary. I totally agree. People can have their opinions. But that should extend to us, too. When it doesn't, something is wrong.

[Celia Cyanide]

It's difficult to let go of the truth. Nearly all colleges and universities are controled, tightly controlled, by left-leaning professors.

Saying that "arts and our universities have been taken hostage" is very different from stating that most people in universties are liberal. I would agree with the latter, but I can assure you, we did not go out and say, "Hey! Let's all get jobs as college profs and become artists, so conservatives won't want to write anything!" I do agree that most universities, especially in the arts, are left leaning, but that's the way it is. Using the word "hostage" implies it was done intentionally, and perhaps even a bit maliciously.

I don;t mind others talking about current affairs, but they must allow me the same freedom, and I've found this is very seldom allowed.

True. But I've been the minority in the group many, many times, and I find that this is often the case. Whether you're talking about politics, or even art. It's a sad truth.

Writing groups should be about writing, not politics. If they want to talk about current affairs, they can do it on their own times.

The original post was regarding politics before and after, during breaks, and in writing. People are going to talk about other things at these times. If you are not comfortable with it, you can say so. But as far as writing goes, people are going to write what they want.

[NeuroFizz]

It's difficult to let go of the truth. Nearly all colleges and universities are controled, tightly controlled, by left-leaning professors. I don't know about vicious and vile, but they can get incredibly nasty when anything approaching a right wing idea is even mentioned.

I don't mind others talking about current affairs, but they must allow me the same freedom, and I've found this is very seldom allowed.

Writing groups should be about writing, not politics. If they want to talk about current affairs, they can do it on their own times.
Truth? Whose truth? Those on each of the extremes of our two-party system tend to view moderates as "belonging in the other camp."

First of all, university professors don't control crap, except for their classrooms and their research/creative activities. Most professors outside of political science departments (and a few other areas) are conscientious enough to avoid percolating their personal politics throughout their classrooms.

I've been associated with the "other side of the university desk" since 1973, and I've seen the same spectrum of political views I've observed in a large rooms of strangers. This relates to politics in general. Many of my colleagues take stances on individual issues instead of going party-line on all issues. What mobilizes most professors are issues that concern state funding of universities and federal research funding--issues that directly impact our livelihoods. How would your politics line up if you were subjected to six straight years of no raises, in addition to hiring freezes preventing the replacement of retirement positions, in a time when the stock market was booming and the mean income of most other occupations was increasing at a significant, regular rate? How would you like it if the states considered their university systems a SOURCE of money when the state economy goes bad, and the response of the legislature is, "tough s**t, increase the sizes of your classes and feel lucky to have a job?" It would tend to bend your political involvement on that issue, I bet. A person can be politically conservative, except on issues that directly impact his/her livelihood, and yet catch one of those "left wing" labels because of their stance on those isolated issues. I should know...

I think if anyone here polled a university faculty about their political views in a way that avoided the black-or-white labels of the political parties, I bet that person would be really surprised at the outcome. Maybe not in the sixties, seventies, or even the eighties. But now, yes.

[virtue_summer]

I'm confused. What is it that's really bothering you? Would you feel the same if they were writing about or discussing views that were similar or the same as yours? Is it being the "lone wolf" that's bothering you? No real cure for that except to find another group. I'd say agree to disagree about politics, but I'm not sure from the tone of your posts that this would be possible. On the other hand, if the problem is that they're discussing politics during writing time, then tell them you see this as a problem and work out a way to try to keep the discussion on track during this time. They can talk about politics and other stuff before or after you meet, or possibly during a break (and I'm sure there'd be at least one person who didn't want to talk politics, and you could discuss something else with them, or do something on your own during this time).

[Euan H.]

Nearly all colleges and universities are controled, tightly controlled, by left-leaning professors. I don't know about vicious and vile, but they can get incredibly nasty when anything approaching a right wing idea is even mentioned.
Do you have any evidence to back this up? At all?

I work at a university (not in the US though), and my experience has been similar to Neurofizz's. The spectrum of political opinion in the collge where I work goes from a hardline Marxist (he teaches political science) to several small-government conservatives (mainly in the business dept.).

I don;t mind others talking about current affairs, but they must allow me the same freedom, and I've found this is very seldom allowed.
Really? So how do these university professors (you know, the vicious and evil left-wingers who control nearly every college and university) stop you speaking? Do they come round your house and throw books at you until you stop?

[jbmm]

Evidence? Anyone with half open eyes and ears, knows this to be true. There is no denying it.

And no, they don't throw books at our houses until we stop. They're much more subtle.

[emeraldcite]

It's difficult to let go of the truth. Nearly all colleges and universities are controled, tightly controlled, by left-leaning professors. I don't know about vicious and vile, but they can get incredibly nasty when anything approaching a right wing idea is even mentioned.

I don't think this to be true. Of course, conservatives are focusing on this now and you see it in the news quite a bit. There are liberal professors. There are conservative professors. I recall two distinct episodes at my campus. There was going to be a very liberal speaker at graduation. The conservative supporters were up in arms and many of the professors refused to go. They boycotted. Same thing with the liberal professors. They did it too when there was a big conservative speaker.

Campuses have always been a hot bed of politics. I teach college courses where we discuss hot button topics. We pretty much play a game all semester: guess my affiliation. I tend to always play devil's advocate and students can never tell that I'm really very liberal. I have lots of social liberal leanings and some more moderate liberal stances on governance. But my kids never know it even though we talk about traditional families, gay marriage and adoption, abortion, political ethics, etc.

I think many responsible professors keep their politics out the classroom for the most part. I remember very few professors being vocal in my six years as a student in academe. I do remember a few on both sides of the political fence, and they were all quite radical and easily ignorable.

I think the media, both liberal and conservative, are playing up liberalism on campuses. It has the same political leaning density as business. No one's lobbying for more liberal CEOs and business magnates.

Moderates tend to be less vocal while those at the extreme ends tend to bang their drums the loudest. Maybe that's why people notice them so much.

I admit, that the older you are and the more involved in politics, the more sensitive you will be.

In terms of a writing group, I'd head for the hills and find a new group. If I couldn't stand them anymore, I'd move on. No time wasting time being angry or upset.

[maestrowork]

Let me ask this question: What if all your group members agree with you politically -- that they're conservative/right-leaning? Would you have the same problem? If the answer is:

No: then it's not really about writing vs. politics. It's really about you not being able stand being with people who don't share your views, conservative or not. And that you either feel left out or you feel uncomfortable in their presence. In that case, I'd suggest you leave the group. When you deal with people, you deal with them as whole people, not just bits and pieces of them as you see fit. Even if they don't discuss politics at all, you would judge these people or dislike them simply because they're "liberals" or communist or whatever. People socialize, and sometimes political commentaries are part of that socialization, especially if the issues affect them personally (education, taxes, war, corporate welfare, etc.)

Yes: then you really do believe that writing and politics don't mix (however, I wonder how true it can be. A lot of writing, fiction or non-fiction, deals with political views one way or another, or world views/philosophies that are either left or right leaning). How would you be able to objectively critique a person's work if it deals with political or particular world views? One thing to do is to set up guidelines to disallow discussions, even in a social setting, of politics. And to disallow work that deals with politics. At the social functions I attend with my friends, we usually have a "law" stating that no politics or religions would be discussed, or else the people would have to leave the gathering. It works pretty well once everyone knows the "law."

[maestrowork]

I don't think this to be true. Of course, conservatives are focusing on this now and you see it in the news quite a bit. There are liberal professors. There are conservative professors. I recall two distinct episodes at my campus. There was going to be a very liberal speaker at graduation. The conservative supporters were up in arms and many of the professors refused to go. They boycotted. Same thing with the liberal professors. They did it too when there was a big conservative speaker...

People always whine when someone don't agree with them. I mean, if JAR (not to pick on you, but your post came off just as prejudiced as the people you're talking about) happens to be a liberal, I bet he wouldn't be complaining about the "liberal" academia... Or, if campuses happen to be filled with conservative types, someone like JAR who is a conservative wouldn't complain at all.

I mean, no conservative people were complaining about the Clinton witch hunt... or no liberal is complaining about the GWB witch hunt... or vice versa...

Human nature.

But to call that "truth" is really stretching it. Like someone else said, "Whose truth?"

[Lyra Jean]

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/images/bothaxes.gif


I took the test. Does being near the center mean you have no views?

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/images/axeswithnames.gif

So am I most like Gandhi, Stalin, or Hitler? Can I choose Gandhi? I don't like the other two. Anyway how did everyone else score?

[maestrowork]

I'm pretty close to the middle... hmmm... economically leaning a bit to the right, and socially leaning toward libertarian. Just what I thought ;) A social liberal and a fiscal conservative. ;) I should run for the Governor of California...

[jst5150]

Weren't we discussing solutions for writers' groups?

Seems like that's more productive for the person asking the question rather than dickering with personal politics. Besides, there's probably a better forum for that here or elsewhere.

As for other thoughts about choosing/selecting writer's groups, I've always been disappointed with the character and makeup of any live writers' groups I commit to. They don't meet my writing or social needs.

To be fair, I have an agenda going in. I want to offer help and be helped. If something socially occurs, great. However, the purpose of attending the meet is two-fold: help others and help myself.

The dynamics discussed within the thread up to now are exactly the sorts of landmines best avoided. A good writing group would have a tightly focused agenda with a strong moderator/leader to keep things on track. If the banter skewed and people started talk about politics (or anything else that merely mires rather than facilitates), then it would be up to the moderator to steer the group into a productive direction.

Members of the group also have that responsibility. For the two hours (or however long the thing is), they need to commit to the meeting's goals, commit to others and commit to themself. Then, afterward, if someone wants to whack someone else's politcal views around like a Weeble Wobble, fine. Coffee shops litter the landscape and political discussions (or whatever distraction may have sidetracked the thing in the first place) can be haggled on then.

However, while the writers' group is head-shedding, it needs to condense the nonsense, find the focus and move forward.

[Euan H.]

Evidence? Anyone with half open eyes and ears, knows this to be true. There is no denying it.
I deny it. There y'go. I just did it. Are you going to offer any evidence, or is all that you have the tired old saw that your argument is so obvious that anyone who disagrees with you is being deliberately obtuse?
And no, they don't throw books at our houses until we stop. They're much more subtle.
Really? Please do explain. I would love to know how left-wing academics have restricted your freedom of speech.

Personally, I would have thought that the continued existence of Fox news would be enough to prove that the secret left-wing-neo-communist conspiracy that controls, like, EVERYTHING, is not actually very powerful at all. But there y'go.

Anyway, we've moved a little far afield from writer's groups. Sorry. I will try not to drag this thread any more off-topic.

What JST said above sounds like generally good advice to me--but I think it depends on what people see the purpose of the writing group as. Writing groups can be about more than just critiquing. There can also be an element of mutual support present, which could be as important (if not more important) for some people than the writing element. If the people in the group generally agree on the purpose of the group, then no problem. But when you've got people with differing ideas, well, then you've got problems.

[clintl]

I took that test a year or two ago, and the results didn't really surprise me: very slightly to the left of center on economics, and way to the libertarian side of the authoritarian-libertarian axis.

[jbmm]

Euan, left wing academics has the power to mold young minds. Having teenagers myself, this scares the hell out of me. I'm a college graduate. It was all around me. And that was some twenty years ago.

As for Fox, do you ever watch it? They are often criticized for being too right leaning, when the fact is that they always have one person from each side. This is something that ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS seldom, if ever, do. The left has dominated the media for years. So, what about Fox?

[Celia Cyanide]

As for Fox, do you ever watch it? They are often criticized for being too right leaning, when the fact is that they always have one person from each side. This is something that ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS seldom, if ever, do. The left has dominated the media for years. So, what about Fox?

According to Walter Cronkite, Fox news does not operate the way that any legitimate news source, who wishes to be unbiased, should operate.

Euan, left wing academics has the power to mold young minds. Having teenagers myself, this scares the hell out of me. I'm a college graduate. It was all around me. And that was some twenty years ago.

By the time we enter college, we are adults, and we should be able to think for ourselves. And Euan asked if you were going to offer any evidence. "It was all around me" is not evidence. Most of us are also college graduates, and we don't agree.

[My-Immortal]

Just a thought...

Whether teachers or professors are right or left - a student is stuck with that person for the duration of that class...

Fox TV on the other hand may or may not be biased, but a student can quite easily change the channel to find the news that more correctly matches their political affiliations.

The sad thing is that the media taints the news with THEIR right or left beliefs rather than report JUST THE FACTS AS IS.

And the other sad thing is that "we" feel better when we watch the tainted news - we can either nod our heads and agree with the same political minded stories or shake our fists at the TV and slam the reports as being wrong because it doesn't follow along our political views.

That's all we need in this world, isn't it, more discontent...

Hey - whether you're left or right...have a good day. :)

[clintl]

Young people are more capable of forming their own opinions and thinking for themselves than a lot of people give them credit for. And, with respect to academia, I think the prevalence of liberalism really depends quite a bit on the course of study. And there are plenty of conservative student groups to counter the liberals (at least there were, and are now, at my alma mater).

I really don't think the prevalence of liberalism in academia is any worse than the prevalence of conservatism in the corporate world. To a certain extent, I think there's a self-selection process at work, where liberals are more likely to pursue academic careers, and conservatives are more likely to pursue corporate careers, and there's really not a lot anyone can do to change that because the reasons for the self-selection are pretty tightly tied to fundamental values.

[FolkloreFanatic]

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21935

I've started an overflow thread, because this is way off your original topic, Jbmm. It's a good conversation, but frankly, I'm sensing that you're a bit more conservative than apolitical, and there's no point in continuing the conversation in the Writer's section.

[jbmm]

Thank you, everyone. This is all great food for thought. I've learned a lot from this thread and will try and sort it out in my head. In the meantime, FolkloreFanatic is right. And I need to get back to my novel. It's really the most important thing to me right now.

Thanks again.

[Euan H.]

... And I need to get back to my novel. It's really the most important thing ...
Right on. Here, I agree with you. :)

[fallenangelwriter]

to the OP: I'd second the suggestion that you ask them not to discuss politics socially. obviously, if they write political pieces, you'll have to critique them, but you needn't discuss the views expresse,d only how effectively it expresses them.

to whomever said that the OP shouldn't refer to his co-writers as whiners just because they were left-wing, i would sya that likely they were whiners. I'm pretty far left, but i've noticed among my fellow left-wingers a strong tendency towards whininess. thus, i'd give him the benefit of the doubt when he says they're whining, which really drives home the point that they shouldn't be discussing it in the first place.
to those who argued that colleges can't be liberal-dominated becaus ethey've known conservative professors and students groups: remember that the more in the minority a group is, the more vocal it becomes. you may know equal numbers of outspoken individuals from both parties, while the quieter types are overwhlemingly to one side or the other.

EDIT: incidentally, i find it odd that your writing gorup's political views would come through so strongly and frequently in their writing. most of my work is tengential to modenr politics, but even my political themed pieces have not consitently conveyed my political views. my most political piece features a main character who's downright authoritarian.

[Celia Cyanide]

to whomever said that the OP shouldn't refer to his co-writers as whiners just because they were left-wing, i would sya that likely they were whiners. I'm pretty far left, but i've noticed among my fellow left-wingers a strong tendency towards whininess.

I've noticed a strong tendency toward whininess among my parents Christian Conservative friends when they get together, too. And among non-voters who are sick of hearing people talk about politics. And people who are having trouble working on their books, and just about anybody for all sorts of reasons. I think the main point was: when you're trying to ask someone to change their behavior, resorting to name-calling will not win their respect, so it's probably best to avoid that attitude. :)

[KTC]

I laugh at the direction this thread took. It proves my original post. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Americans and their politics. I'm actually quite fascinated by the whole thing. I listened over the last couple of days. The number of times politics came up in my earshot...outside of tv and radio of course...0/nil/nada/nyet/nonce. I know it's best that we are politically involved and know what's going on etc...but I really don't see that here in Canada. I'm 39 years old and the last time I voted was for the next book to read in Grade 8 English class.

[Mike Coombes]

Oh. And if someone steps too far over the line, punch him in the face.

It's the Republican way.

[the debster]

As the moderator of a writers' group which meets 2x's per month with an average of 16 members per meeting, I feel it is my position to keep everyone on point.

If you have a problem with your group, go to the moderator. If he/she feels your request is inconsequential, find another group.

I have often had to divert attention away from politics and off-point chatter. It can be done--and must be in my opinion as the whole intent of a writers' group is specifically to discuss what is be offered for critique. However, if the moderator does not know your concerns they cannot be addressed.

[My-Immortal]

I laugh at the direction this thread took. It proves my original post. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Americans and their politics. I'm actually quite fascinated by the whole thing. I listened over the last couple of days. The number of times politics came up in my earshot...outside of tv and radio of course...0/nil/nada/nyet/nonce. I know it's best that we are politically involved and know what's going on etc...but I really don't see that here in Canada. I'm 39 years old and the last time I voted was for the next book to read in Grade 8 English class.

I think there is a huge difference in discussing politics online relatively anonymously vs discussing politics in a real world setting. We may know a little about some of the posters here (depending on how long you've been apart of AW and how much you post about yourselves), but for the most part it is a discussion among relative strangers. I doubt if many people would walk into a coffee house for example and engage everyone in the place in a political debate as we've done here.

[Euan H.]

... Americans and their politics. ...
Just so y'know, not all of us are American. I'm a self-exiled Brit.

Calling me a septic tank, are you? :box:

[jbmm]

KTC--that's pathetic.

This thread has gone crazy. I'm going to try not to look at it again.

[KTC]

What's pathetic? I don't get it?

And I wasn't saying that Americans talking about politics was a bad thing. It's almost as though I envy it. But when I hear politic talk something inside me shuts off. I just can't be bothered. Which means I cannot complain when my government does things which I oppose, obviously. Oh well.

[jbmm]

Sorry, KTC. I think this thread has made me a little contentious. I just meant that, well, that you should vote. It makes me sad to see that so many people have become so complacent nowadays. Left, right, or in between, everyone that can vote, should.

That's my lecture. Again, sorry. I didn't mean to be nasty. Have a great night.

[KTC]

I understand completely. I've had this discussion in the past. I know it's some kind of crime to not use your free rights. I don't blame you, really. I am probably about the most complacent out there. Like I said, my brain just kind of turns off when politics come up. I don't even know what a conservative is compared to a republican or democrat or liberal or whatever other parties there are out there. I couldn't even guess at a definition of any of the above...because I would get them wrong. I just don't know and I never will. I believe people should use their rights to vote. I also believe that votes should be informed. I think the Liberals run our country...but I would have to google it to find out for sure. (I evoke frustration in others all the time...politics is just the tip of the iceberg!)

[jbmm]

I understand, too, to a degree. However, this can't simply be just a given fact about yourself. You say you "don't know and never will." But you have the power to change that about yourself, if you want. Your in Canada? Yes, the country is largely liberal, socialist for the most part. I'm not saying that in a bad way. It just is.

But really, KTC, there's so much to learn, and so much at stake when you don't vote, when you don't stay at least somewhat informed of the issues of the day. Think how many people have died so others could vote. It's happening today. It will probably always be that way.

If it's not too painful, try watching the History Channel (a fairly painless way to get informed). Why? Because so much of the past is still so much of what is happening today.

I don't know you at all. And I realize I'm probably beating my head up against a wall, so to speak. I don't want to lecture you. I just want to make you think.

[stupidmansuit]

Hm. I'm new, but I found this discussion interesting- about politics in writers' groups. If it were me, I'd just do as some others said, and use the experience as writing fodder... I took that political scale quiz once, and I ended up farther left than Ghandi, so I do lean very left, but I always HATE it when people bring up politics in situations like that. I have close friends (of varying political persuasions) that I disucss politics with, but in a writers' group with so many people I would never... It's just too devisive. Unless (any kind of) politics came up in the writing- that I wouldn't have a problem with.