What makes for a great fantasy novel... [Archive]

Saanen

11-06-2005, 06:41 AM

In my mind, a great fantasy novel is like any other novel--if the characters don't engage me, the novel isn't successful. But if you're thinking about things specific to fantasies, I'd say I like inventiveness the best. I don't want to read about the same old "noble elves, evil orcs" or other cliches unless the author has a good twist on them. And I like fabulous creatures in fantasies, but only if they act like real creatures and not like people with funny suits on. That is, if the author has an intelligent lizard-man as a character, say, that lizard-man should look at the world and react to events differently than the human characters. And, of course, human characters should react to the lizard-man differently than they do fellow humans.

brokenfingers

11-06-2005, 07:36 AM

I agree with Saanen.

I think the most important things for me as far as a good fantasy/sf book are originality, believability and thoroughness.

Originality: I want to read about new worlds, not rehashed old ones. I can't be bothered with stories that just recycle the old tropes and standbys. Elves, orcs, evil overlords, even dragons. If there's a new twist or facet that is explored - fine. But too many new writers just want to use the same old stuff that's been done so many times before.

Believability: The writer has created a world AND shows it in such a way that I half believe it. Not BELIEVE it, of course, but the suspense of disbelief comes easily. I enter the world the author has created and am borne through it on their words alone. It's a fun ride and while I'm on it, that particular world is real to me.

Thoroughness: I love it when an author has covered all the bases. I don't stop in the middle of a scene and think: "Why?"

The author has constructed a world, society and characters that act naturally within their framework and also interact naturally. The author makes me feel like there's an actual world still out there.

Bad stories have gaping holes in logic, in the world's infrastructure, society etc.

Some pet peeves: When an author creates a society of drones or clones. Everyone in X society is a stable, hardworking upright citizen and everyone in Y society is no-good, evil etc.

When the characters are unbelievable - as in goody goody's with no bad qualities, no errors in judgement, who show none of the baser human qualities that every human being on this planet was born with.

Yes, I want heroes but I want them to be believeable and find it more interesting when they perform heroic feats despite the fact that they sometimes feel lust or jealousy or greed or whatever.

I have to say that I think the face of fantasy today is changing. 5, 10 years ago I felt like fantasy was in a la-la land with all the cookie-cutter hero archetypes, the connect-the-dots storylines, the same old, same old cast of characters, villains and monsters.

HConn

11-06-2005, 10:10 AM

First of all, I want all the stuff I expect from any novel. Reasonably well-written, characters I care about, tension, pacing, yadda yadda. Everything you'd want in any good story.

Next, I want mystery. I love it when the characters to face something they don't fully understand.

I don't need to have originality in characters or settings. That's nice, but not as crucial as other the things.

bylinebree

11-13-2005, 05:52 AM

Ok, you all have some good ideas and opinions! Helps to see what the readers want and like, since I am writing fantasy as well as reading it some after a twenty year hiatus.

Now as a reader, I agree on the originality thing, except for elves. Darn it, I just love the elf-idea, especially the Tolkien type of elves who are as big as we are and don't sit around on toadstools in gossamer wings. They are sexy, intriguing, and still have a lot of untapped potential for stories. I personally love the idea of the immortal-mortal relationship thing, regardless of how the immortal race is portrayed; elves or whatever.

I HATE ponderous, hard-to-read language, no matter how intriguing the author's ideas are! (no offense to Janny Wurts, but YOW - hers is one example)

Last, I'd say that it's the characters. Make me care, make them engaging and flawed and unusual. Make me cry, laugh, get angry.

Good stuff!

WVWriterGirl

11-13-2005, 07:27 AM

Thanks for posting this question, MI. I've been thinking about the same thing as of late.

I've been wondering, if all the elves and gnomes and dwarves are erased from fantasy, then what is fantasy? I tend to like all those wonderful creatures that I can't find walking the streets of my home town (although I will admit to knowing one or two trolls in my life). Characterization's great. Setting's great, too. But without some fantasy creatures, even the occasional talking dragon, fantasy seems to loose it's flavor. It's like spaghetti sauce with just tomatoes and nothing else...you need the spice to make it spaghetti sauce.

Beyondian

11-13-2005, 10:28 AM

As a fantasy writer, I am very very relieved to hear that other people are just as tired of the old elf-good, orc-bad, and there is no way that any dwarf is ever going to get in a boat cliches.
Me and my older brother made a fantasy role playing game for our younger brother;s birthday once, and an older friend who does a lot of wargaming came to play it with us. He told us afterwards, that you couldn't have good orcs (we had made it possible for a gameplayer to have an orc as their character) and dwarves couldn't be sailors.
Of course, I'm a little rebel at heart, so I instantly changed my 'good guy lost races' in my novel from Trolls and Goblins to Trolls and Orcs. But my dwarves were sailors before he even mentioned this, so there wasn't much I could do there.
Oh - and one of my bad guys is a dark-skinned, deaf, female, elf. How's that for unusual?
But, to continue with the topic, I see a good fantasy as being something with gripping characters, adventure, a story-line I can be brought to care about, and writing skills that don't make me wince.

SeanDSchaffer

11-13-2005, 11:13 AM

I think originality is all fine and good, but if the characters and storyline are not believable, the work suffers as do I when I'm reading it.

On the subject of Elf-good, Orc-bad, I like to throw concepts like that out the window myself. In my previous work, the main protagonist was a dragon, and the main antagonist was a unicorn. I've always thought that using stereotypes for evil vs. good characters ought not to be done, because to me that smacks of the old 'same old, same old' that someone mentioned earlier in this thread. I enjoy very much being different from the norm.

loquax

11-13-2005, 01:13 PM

Diana Hignutt

11-13-2005, 03:33 PM

Great story, great characters, great conflict, and a dash (or more) of something lost from this world... and oh yeah, great writing...

My-Immortal

11-13-2005, 05:38 PM

I really haven't used elves or orcs etc in my fantasy stories - but I think rather then having one specific race "good" while one is "evil" it would be more believable to have good and evil in each race (just like humans). And an evil elf doesn't have to be a 'dark' elf either. I have nothing against RPGs - I used to play them often when I was younger and really enjoyed the games - but I think having specific races labeled 'good' or 'evil' really can stunt the ability of some to 'think outside the box'. For so long elves had to be good and orcs had to evil that not many people have gone beyond that and looked at those shades of gray in between in their writing.

What makes a good fantasy? This is just my opinion but I think a good fantasy book has the ability to make you forget about 'real' life for a while, yet still contains a great deal of reality. The reader actually cares about the characters because they seem very real - even if they can cast magic, or fly, or do things a normal human cannot.

Take care all - and good luck with your writing endeavors. :)

preyer

11-13-2005, 10:16 PM

we must have played different RPG's, MI. the ones i played as a kid had an entire race of 'dark elves.'

naturally, it has to be a good, well-written novel with all the care given to characters and setting as any other book. my personal preference doesn't lean towards dragons.

a little mystery, a little romance (though that's hard for some fantasy writers, it seems). i like a little familiarity, yet not cliches. i prefer anti-heroes and books who aren't afraid to 'go there,' wherever that there is. there's got to be something in the book that i can relate to. i also greatly appreciate a fantasy that begins and ends within one book: trilogies turn me off and so do hugely open-ended finales.

as far as whatever magick system there is, i'm really not interested in stories that go to great lengths to describe how it all works. show me a few examples of what extents magick in that world can go to and that's all i need. i don't care from which god magick is given, less about that god's history.

i like to learn a few things while reading. doesn't have to be anything grand, just perhaps something silly like the parts of a saddle or the type of a castle or how a peasant's life really is. there has to be at least a pseudo-science behind how the world operates that's discernable.

i like authors with life-experience. this is especially true of fantasy authors. since the genre seems to me to attract beginning writers, that really stands out more often than not.

basically i like the kind of stories i write, lol. which, incidentally, is a driving force behind why i write because i think most stories are crap. keep your tolkein tales with a twist. give me a story written by an adult who's not so desperate to be different (as mentioned, going against the grain of cliches for the sake of 'uniqueness' is cheating, rather akin to being a 'rebel' by getting a tattoo-- geez, what a statement of conformity it is to be under 25 with a tribal around your bicep. way to go, dumbasss) that he avoids *all* cliches.

also as mentioned are mary-sues. hate 'em. they're not even real characters.

i'm also not too hep on main characters who aren't human. call me crazy. or characters who are the chosen ones. prophecies in general suck. too, characters with super-powers i'll never have don't appeal to me. remember in the original star wars how the force was something a kid could feel as if he could have?

i've never cared for speaking creatures that shouldn't speak.

Leanan-Sidhe

11-13-2005, 10:43 PM

I think everyone's made really good points so far. There isn't just one quality that makes a good fantasy story. Stories can have have fascinating, original plots, but if I don't care about the characters then it's only a mediocre book in my opinion. I like fantasy that's original, but originality alone will not make a story, and there is a point where an author can go overboard. I also appreciate a little comedy thrown into a serious struggle of good vs. evil, but again, that alone will not save a story. I agree with the above comments that Mary Sues and perfect characters can kill off a novel completely. I also don't like damsels in distress, just because I'm a feminist like that and the concept is way overdone.

DaveKuzminski

11-13-2005, 11:53 PM

Make sure you have great troll names if you have any troll characters. I suggest using Willem, Larry, Miranda, Erica, and Marleen. Okay, forget Larry. That's more suited to a lounge lizard. But the others could be really good troll names. ;)

SeanDSchaffer

11-14-2005, 12:34 AM

Then again, you don't want to deliberately go against the grain for the sake of reversing a cliche. That would be a cheating way of acheiving originality, and I don't think you'd be fooling anyone. The hero's home is an iron citadel inside a volcano, and the antagonist's is a bucolic little hamlet? Nah.

I know where you're coming from, loquax, but at the same time I hold to the old belief that 'looks can be deceiving.' What better way to make the bad guy more evil than to have him live in a quaint little hamlet? To add open deception to his evil ways.

I think of the movie 'Beauty and the Beast' made a number of years ago by Disney. The Beast lived in a dark, forboding castle, but in the end turned out to be quite the good guy, and a perfect gentleman. I personally like fantasy stories that turn looks on its head. They intrigue me quite a bit.

loquax

11-14-2005, 01:02 AM

SeanDSchaffer

11-14-2005, 01:28 AM

Well, there you're slipping into the realms of anti-hero and anti-villain, which I think are great. But I'm saying it's bad when people do it for the sake of originality and nothing else - where the story actually suffers because they've deliberately tried to be different.

I think of good fantasy as fresh and original angles on time old concepts and cliches.

I think I get what you're saying now.

I had heard the terms 'anti-hero' and 'anti-villain' before, but I never really understood them correctly. My mistake.

And I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that changing a traditionally evil character to good, and vice-versa, for originality's sake and nothing else, is a bad thing. I believe each character should be his or her own person, not just a photocopy of what others of his or her race or species are deemed to be like in a story. That just bothers me, to think that no one within a particular race or species cannot be different from others within their same race of species.

My-Immortal

11-14-2005, 06:17 AM

we must have played different RPG's, MI. the ones i played as a kid had an entire race of 'dark elves.'

Oh no, one of the RPGs I played had dark elves too (drow) - but my point was that it shouldn't JUST be a 'dark elf' that is evil. It seems unrealistic that ALL the elves of the typical "good" race should be "good". Wouldn't it seem more realistic to believe that an elf has the potential for evil just as much as a human? And wouldn't it also seem possible that at least some of those elves with the potential for evil actually were evil?

The Scribbler

11-15-2005, 01:03 AM

Oh no, one of the RPGs I played had dark elves too (drow) - but my point was that it shouldn't JUST be a 'dark elf' that is evil. It seems unrealistic that ALL the elves of the typical "good" race should be "good". Wouldn't it seem more realistic to believe that an elf has the potential for evil just as much as a human? And wouldn't it also seem possible that at least some of those elves with the potential for evil actually were evil?

Intersting you hould say that. One of the characters in my book is an Elf gone bad.

loquax

11-15-2005, 01:47 AM

Making non-human races more human isn't necessarily a good thing...

bylinebree

11-15-2005, 04:53 AM

...I don't know if giving non-human races human qualities is bad or good - it just gives them more depth, I think.

An example: In one of my stories, part of the plot-intrigue is putting an immortal, pure Elf in a situation where he has to lie for some reason to save someone, although it is not his nature to do so normally. But he goes for the 'higher good' and does it, though it's hard for him (and he even gets the girl, in the end!) Think of the people who hid Jews from the Nazis - they had to lie, steal at times, etc, in order to save innocents & fight evil.

I mean, what other role model do we have for humanoid-type races, other than ourselves - or the animal kingdom? Since we are fascinated with ourselves, we model them after our best, our worst, and in-between.

And since elves are fantasy creatures, anyway, who's to say what, exactly, they are or aren't? The writer, the creator who puts their own "spin" on their characters. It's our job to make them credible and suspend disbelief.

Creating new worlds and making people believe, and care...:idea:

My-Immortal

11-15-2005, 05:32 AM

Making non-human races more human isn't necessarily a good thing...

I'm not saying that non-human races need to be more human - perhaps just more realistic. To have an ENTIRE race of individuals (elves, dwarves, whatever) ALL having similar morals doesn't make them very unique, does it? Say there are 25,000 elves in your world - not a single one is evil - or even has a slight inclination toward evil? I know it's fantasy, but wouldn't you like to have a bit of realism mixed in with your fantasy? I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer to this - this is just my opinion, take it or leave it. I personally like to have a mixture of characters that have faults that occasionally mess up and aren't all "good" all the time.

On a side note - the concept of good or evil may be different for different races too. What we (humans) may consider evil may not be evil to an elf or dwarf or whatever. Just for example - say you want to have your elves be immortal. They cannot die (unless they are killed in a very specific way). Now let us say that an elf is horribly crippled....as a human, we'd most likely believe killing that elf as an "evil" act - but what if to the elf that is considered a "good" act? The elf believes that ending the crippled elf's immortal life is a merciful and decent act. It's still fantasy - but now it has some depth of story in it too.

I know - people will say fantasy stories shouldn't have that. They should be pure escapism.....but I guess I prefer my fantasy with a little dose of realism and depth mixed in.

take care all - and good luck with your writing endeavors... :)

loquax

11-15-2005, 12:31 PM

Saanen

11-15-2005, 05:06 PM

My personal opinion is that human traits would be wasted on other races if you already have humans to express them. If all of a sudden elves can die, lie, cry, and make pie, they lose that extra dimension that separates them from Men, which in turn robs your humans of their uniqueness.

But by that argument, there's no reason to have elves (or any other fantasy race) in the first place, because humans can be good and noble and beautiful as well as everything else. I don't think it's possible to rob humans of their (perceived) uniqueness--after all, we're naturally rather absorbed with ourselves. :)

I think fantasy races are often used to point out different aspects of human culture, but it's basically an exercise in stereotypes these days. When I say "elves," "dwarves," "orcs," or "Klingons," I'm sure you get a pretty static image in your mind. But when I say "vampires," that image may be less static, because of all the vampire fiction that examines vampires as complex characters who aren't necessarily all evil (or all good). A good writer can make a character of any race well-rounded without making the character seem like just another guy you'd meet in the street.

loquax

11-15-2005, 06:15 PM

badducky

11-15-2005, 07:48 PM

What makes a great fantasy novel?

Easy.

I wrote it.:wag:

My-Immortal

11-15-2005, 07:56 PM

What!? Humans aren't immortal! Humans don't suck blood! Humans aren't uncapable of evil!

That's what makes fantasy races so cool... their separation from people. I'm saying that when you take these special traits away from them - make them more human and less fantastical, there's no reason for having them in the first place.

If I've ticked anyone off because their MC is a vampire who doesn't suck blood , has no super strength, can live in daylight, and who isn't immortal, then remember - that's okay as long as it's done well.

Loquax - you make some very valid points. If you are going to include fantasy races in your world there should be a reason for it - and to use the "elf" example, they shouldn't be just "humans with pointy ears". I think an "elf" can have all those 'cool' traits, but STILL be 3-dimensional too (if you work at it). 3-dimensional doesn't mean "more human" either - at least not to me.

Even if ALL of your elves are "good" (let us say that "goodness" is the cool trait that you're worried about loosing) - wouldn't you think there is still a varying degree of goodness in each? Instead of your scale running from: evil-neutral-good, you might have: basic good - very good - extreme godlike good. To an elf that is in the 'basic good' range - couldn't he possibly think he's less of an elf than the others with more goodness? Or perhaps an elf is good - but he suffers from greed (if you're going to live forever wouldn't you want to live well?). All I'm saying is you can definitely keep the 'specialness' of a fantasy race - but I prefer ALL my characters (especially my heroes) to have some sort of flaw. Fantastical characters don't have to be "humanized" - but they do need to be relative. You want your readers to be able to connect with them somehow and a flawless character is difficult to relate to.

Take care all - and good luck with your writing endeavors.... :)

loquax

11-15-2005, 08:16 PM

I agree. I hope I didn't make it out that all fantasy races should be 2 dimensional!

HourglassMemory

12-31-2005, 12:20 AM

what happens if you take the the typical stuff out of a fantasy novel? the elves the orcs the profecies...the weird names and languages? Because I'm writing a book like that...and I don't know if it should be considered fantasy...If you go to check the posts that i've writen you can find one that says "I dont know if this is fantasy or not" and I put my first entire chapter there...it's crappy, but if you coul dgive me your opinion that would be great.

azbikergirl

12-31-2005, 12:37 AM

Originality is nice, but to me the story must be engaging and the characters sympathetic. I'm thinking in particular of A Game of Thrones, a very successful novel usually classified as fantasy. The world isn't original, the people are regular humans, there are no weird/fancy creatures, but the book is excellent. It's extremely well-written, the characters are richly drawn, and the plot is engaging.

China Mieville and George R.R. Martin are very different writers, but both highly successful. Some people prefer one over the other, and those readers would probably answer this question differently. I write what I like to read -- more focus on character and story, less on trying to conceive worlds and beings that nobody's done before.

Vuligora

01-01-2006, 12:40 AM

I like a fast paced fantasy that makes it impossible for me not to turn the page. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, the whole...farm boty is really king thing. And then he's all like "But I don't want to be King." That is BS. Of course he wants to be king. His dream isn't to shovel cow manure his whole life. And so he goes on this annoying crusade, meets a friendly wizard, a dragon, and a princess in disguise and goes against someone whose honest enough to admit, "Yeah, I want to be king, cool." And then there is this battle and the villian is so stuck up that he forgets this tiny detail and then there is peace and three hours of my life was just drained away. Why does it have to be a king in disguise? Can't the guy be a hero without a prophecy or a disguise. Can't he battle evil and be awesome because that is who he is not what he is? Okay, I will now proceed to shut up. Now, the above does have it's exceptions. Every so often someone with a brain does this and does a good job. The rest woke up one morning and decided they think they'll write a novel.

I like orignality, through and throiygh. And awesome creatures. And a villian that actually intimidates me. I can't stand a wimpy badguy, that's just annoying. I like badguys, they are interesting.

bylinebree

01-02-2006, 01:55 AM

Well, I agree with much of what the last post said. There are plenty of stories about "the hidden heir" or "boy who turns out to be a king." That's what so cool about fantasy - it is all "what if..." and you take it from there. As long as your world is consistent internally, there ARE no limits. Yahoo!

In my novel, the protag is a prince, right off the bat. It never occurred to me to make him any other way...that's just what he is, from my first image of him. But he's the youngest in his family and likes being a warrior, and really doesn't want to govern his country; his older brother has been groomed for that. The hero takes his royalty as a normal part of life, but still has a journey to complete where he learns of his weaknesses, and where love & strenght are really found. (I think universal themes are vital to any story to appeal the human spirit.)

But when his older bro is assassinated then the warrior has to shift his perspective and goal to becomiong a ruler, one day - the unwanted position thrust upon him among his other problems (a main one being his lovel life...

My novel is a fantasy because it's set in an imaginary kingdom, where the people are half-human --- the other identity of the "other half" isn't clearly stated in the book since I'm still not sure myself where they came from. Possibly in the sequel, I will reveal it (when I know for sure, myself!) I've also created a state religion for this story, which has been an interesting trip.

Thank god that in fantasy, the reader does not NEED all the answers. That's a great deal of the fun.

I think fantasy creatures need a small element of humanity in them if we want the reader to identity with them, somehow. It's the mix of the "fantastic" with the human that makes a new being, one different and yet similar to us. In my novel, for ex, I also allude loosely to European races and countries, but name them differently - and create an alternate history for them. This has been done by authors like Kate Elliott, whose book "King's Dragon" I recently read. She did this well.

In my book, there is only one fantasy critter -- a cold water type of manatee that pulls boats. The people of the kingdom also live longer and have a peculiar kind of "life energy" that enables them to do certain things - special healing, bonding with those they're intimate with, etc. But I felt no compulsion to create or to use "standard" fantasy creatures; dragons, trolls and so forth. There are none in my story.

So what do ya'll think?

Hope rambling on about my novel isn't too boring! (just because I love it...well...!)

Bree

glutton

04-25-2006, 02:24 AM

There's a young soldier in one of my novels, who turns out to be a prince AND is prophesized to kill the great dark god. :) He doesn't want to be king at first, but when he's forced into the position, he grows to like it and refuses to give it up to his half-sister, who wants it for herself.

But he isn't actually the main character, and not only is he never able to prove his royal blood and gain popular acceptance, he also fails to kill the villain. So the real hero(ine), the indestructible female warrior I love to harp on and on about fights the dark god, and well... he dies. (There's more stuff after that, but yeah, she kicks his ***.)

As for orcs, elves, and prophecies, I don't have any of those except the dread prophecies which tend not to come true- because the heroine breaks them. :D There are dragons, but they are pretty different from what you would normally think of (ie. they are ascended human mages) and there is magic.

One of the first things that makes me like a fantasy is a real kick ***, credible, hardcore warrior with an interesting personality, along the lines of any David Gemmel character. One of my primary reasons for writing are that there aren't enough female MCs in this vein, the closest I've seen would be Troy Denning's Alusair from the Cormyr novels.

In short, I love my hardcore legendary warriors. Just my taste.

DaveKuzminski

04-25-2006, 03:41 AM

In my book, there is only one fantasy critter -- a cold water type of manatee that pulls boats.

What kind of boat do they pull?

sunandshadow

04-25-2006, 07:57 AM

Some things I like to see in fantasy:

- People getting magically put into an unfamiliar body (animal, very different humanoid race, or opposite gender) and having to learn how to cope with it.

- Spells gone humorously wrong, or spells gone right but to the humorous annoyance of the person they are cast on. For example a necklace whoch can only be worn by the necklace-maker's soulmate, and when they put it on they are compelled to go toward the necklace-maker... only problem is, there's a wall in the way. But they can't just back up and go around to the gate, because they can only go towards the necklace-maker. Or shoes which have been magically animated decide to kick the spellcaster. Or, a potion explodes and two people are temporarily turned blue, or glued together, etc. :)

- Treat the fantasy world as an alien world and do the worldbuilding with science-fictional thoroughness - alien biology, alien culture - but with magic instead of technology, so it's fantasy.

- I like the kind of mental magic where one character ends up wandering through someone's 'mental landscape' and trying to accomplis things using the dream-logic that operates there.

Taurus Rising

04-25-2006, 09:02 AM

A good fantasy novel needs the same elements as any other good novel, good writing, good pacing, good engaging characters, and so on. Beyond that it's really a matter of taste. The issue of "good elf/bod orc" homogeneous races is a real issue, but at the end of the day it comes down to personal preference. In my circle of RPGers I've got three differing definitions of what makes good fantasy. There's certainly more for readers of fantasy novels.

For me, if a fantasy novel avoids three elements I'll read it:

No Orphans as main characters!
I'm just so incredibly sick of the main character being a young orphan. Yes I get that young people get orphaned and that puts them in a position to maybe go have adventures while gaining some quick sympathy from the reader, but for such a long time I saw so many of these characters that I'm still tired of it.

No Prophecies!
They usually end up being right, even if in a way different than expected. But when a prophecy comes up early in the book, I always feel like the characters are just going through the motions, even if they work against the prophecy in some way. I just know it's all going to turn out with the prophecy being fulfilled in the end.

No plots where the main character/s are 'the only ones' that can do the critical deed!
If they're the only ones that can do it, and we're presuming the bad guys don't end up winning, then gee - I wonder what's going to happen? No matter what threat or challenge the heroes face, I already know they're going to come out at least okay enough to go on and do the deed.

Beyond those points, I'm game for anything. If your world has elves that are all morally upright ninja vampires clones that like bingo, okay - so long as you can make it work in your story. If your elves grow like flowers in a garden and barely look or act alike, I'm good with that too.

What I want from fantasy races are internal consistancy throughout the book or series and some feature that makes them profoundly different from humans.

narselon

04-25-2006, 10:52 AM

I agree with the whole no prophecy, elves, bad orcs, and most of what is said. What I'm not so sure about is the brave hero. I find it harder to relate to. I like the idea of a hero who is afraid, makes mistakes, and is by no means prepared for stuff he did not dream of before.

Admittedly, I reach back to some cliches. I have an orphaned character, but this happened at an age he can remember. He is forever scorned by the incident and is consumed by revenge. It takes such a high priority he doesn't care who he hurts. He doesn't even indulge his own desires.

My protagonist is the descendent of a great legacy, but does not know of it. There is no prophecy or than the other guy making one up for his own purposes. At one point it is said he is the only one who can do stuff, but that is a lie based on a character's ignorance. He is reluctant in that he has no interest trying to take down the powers that be, as he doesn't see anything wrong with the so-called enemy. He finds more problems when discovering the true nature of his ancestry. As he is a normal guy, he is no expert swordsman. He is very afraid in every battle he faces and only survives because of the other character's 'cheating.' A regular policeman could defeat him easily.

I don't have any fantasy creatures other than terrifying beasts called Zuku which are fought on live television in order for the hero to reach heaven. There's a subplot involving their true nature and the purpose of the Zuku fights. There are also Gods, who look like humans except they do not experience emotion and are completely immortal. I also reference Titans, who are somehow mortal, but none are ever shown.

Magic is accepted as possibly existing. Nobody has ever seen it. It is forbidden, but that doesn't stop people from talking about it. I try to stay away from it. I think magic duels end up being contrived in who has higher power level and spells for obstacles are like reaching into a goodie bag to find shark repellent.

glutton

04-25-2006, 06:45 PM

No Prophecies!
They usually end up being right, even if in a way different than expected. But when a prophecy comes up early in the book, I always feel like the characters are just going through the motions, even if they work against the prophecy in some way. I just know it's all going to turn out with the prophecy being fulfilled in the end.

It depends on how strong a force you think destiny is, as in "is human will capable of overriding fate?" For me, it is. The prophecies in my works have never come true so far. They tend to foretell bad things (prophecies of DOOM), and the characters fight to outright defy fate (and win!)

bylinebree

04-26-2006, 12:11 AM

What kind of boat do they pull?

Hi Dave,
It's a boat with curved-up ends called a "leem." The creature's harness is kind of like a horse; the "leemer" (driver) stands in a sort of box at the front to "drive" the boat.

Thanks for asking :) Do you have any cool fantasy critters in your book/s?

Silverhand

04-26-2006, 03:49 AM

Well thought out pantheons or usage of dieties.

Nothing annoys me more then mortals slaying gods, and gods that are not really omnipotent.

DaveKuzminski

04-26-2006, 04:09 AM

Hi Dave,
It's a boat with curved-up ends called a "leem." The creature's harness is kind of like a horse; the "leemer" (driver) stands in a sort of box at the front to "drive" the boat.

Thanks for asking :) Do you have any cool fantasy critters in your book/s?

I'm asking because you'll probably have control problems. First off, your creature has to make a turn and than requires having someone also turn the rudder. Otherwise, your vessel will be very unwieldly and put more stress on the creature than intended. Also, if your creature is ever injured, it will tend to swim favoring one side. That will cause vessels to tend to circle. So, you either need to make sure that your creature is very obedient and somehow link the steering to it or come up with a better design. You also have to remember that momentum will cause the critter to hit a dock if he's stopped too soon and if the harness is too loose when he stops, then the vessel will collide with him.

Also, keep in mind that storms will pose another problem. So will attacks since your vessel will have a significant vulnerability. Hit the beast and you're stalled at sea. You'll also need to provide food for ocean crossings since oceans have large areas that are the equivalent of salt water deserts.
Something else to remember is that your vessels can't back up. These should also give you some ideas for problems your characters can encounter and deal with.

Yes, I have two books out now with critters that resemble plesiosaurs used to power vessels, but the vessels have twin hulls like a catamaran so that the critter is sheltered in between thus removing the control problem. You don't have to teach the critter to turn. The rudder does the turning for both the critter and vessel at the same time.

Taurus Rising

04-26-2006, 11:26 AM

It depends on how strong a force you think destiny is, as in "is human will capable of overriding fate?" For me, it is. The prophecies in my works have never come true so far. They tend to foretell bad things (prophecies of DOOM), and the characters fight to outright defy fate (and win!)

Now *that* I like. The prophecies that irritate me are the ones that read something like, "two sons of Adam and two daughters of Eve will come and over throw the evil Snow Queen." When the main characters are plainly the subjects of the prophecy, I'm pretty sure they'll live at least long enough to see the prophecy through.

I'm not saying that any of the three points on my list can't be done well, your example shows they can. However, I've just seen them done so many times with no twists or tweeks that I'm still burnt out on them.

Destiny now, that I'm using in my own work and in a very different way than prophecy. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

glutton

04-26-2006, 04:49 PM

Well thought out pantheons or usage of dieties.

Nothing annoys me more then mortals slaying gods, and gods that are not really omnipotent.

Well, many gods in traditional mythology *weren't* really omnipotent, in the full Judeo-Christian sense.

It depends again on how you define "god", as in, with a capital G, or just a "really powerful being"?

Another REALLY important issue is how people in your setting define gods. Think Conan "gods".

Also, if mortals in your world can *ascend* to godhood, then it should also make sense that they could bring about a god's downfall.

What if the mortal has another deity's help?

"If it bleeds, then it can die"- or something. :)

-Your Fantasy/Sci-Fi Board Devil's Advocate, Glutton

MadScientistMatt

04-26-2006, 06:38 PM

Now *that* I like. The prophecies that irritate me are the ones that read something like, "two sons of Adam and two daughters of Eve will come and over throw the evil Snow Queen." When the main characters are plainly the subjects of the prophecy, I'm pretty sure they'll live at least long enough to see the prophecy through.

I'm not saying that any of the three points on my list can't be done well, your example shows they can. However, I've just seen them done so many times with no twists or tweeks that I'm still burnt out on them.

Destiny now, that I'm using in my own work and in a very different way than prophecy. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

It's kind of funny, as I was just thinking about C.S. Lewis's use of prophesies in the Narnia series. A prophesy that has an all-to-clear meaning, and comes about exactly the way it sounds, certainly can be pretty boring. At least when C.S. Lewis got started, the genre cliches weren't too well established.

But it's interesting how his use of prophesy started to change. In The Silver Chair, there's prophesy, but it is a set of sometimes cryptic directions based on future events. And then the characters go and miss the first one entirely, get into several arguements about whether they actually fulfilled the third one, and when the situaution to use the fourth sign pops up, it seems to be suicidal to obey it. Now that's a more interesting use of prophesy.

bylinebree

04-27-2006, 11:12 AM

Ah, ha! You know something about boats & I do need the input! Due to my slight ignorance with this forum, I hope I can use your quotes below and reply to them properly. NOTE: My comments are in the QUOTE box after dashes-- WITHIN the quote, I didn't know how to make separate boxes for each. Sorry!

I'm asking because you'll probably have control problems. First off, your creature has to make a turn and than requires having someone also turn the rudder. Otherwise, your vessel will be very unwieldly and put more stress on the creature than intended.
-- OK, I forgot the rudder to turn the stern, 'tis true. If I add foot pedal/s to the leemer's box where he/she stands or sits, perhaps this will solve that.

Also, if your creature is ever injured, it will tend to swim favoring one side. That will cause vessels to tend to circle.
--They don't use injured creatures, but if one is hurt while traveling they have oars & a small mast & sail system stored at the side of the boat for emergencies.

So, you either need to make sure that your creature is very obedient and somehow link the steering to it or come up with a better design.
--They breed and train the creatures for years from "pups" so yes, they are very obedient...usually.
You also have to remember that momentum will cause the critter to hit a dock if he's stopped too soon and if the harness is too loose when he stops, then the vessel will collide with him.
--You mean, stopped too late? There is a yoke at the front of the leem that will prevent this, if I am thinking of boat craft correctly. They don't dock directly but pull alongside the quay or dock. The leemer jumps out to tie it up, then gets into the water to unharness the creature as soon as passengers disembark. Their rein & harness system is very efficient.

Also, keep in mind that storms will pose another problem. So will attacks since your vessel will have a significant vulnerability. Hit the beast and you're stalled at sea. You'll also need to provide food for ocean crossings since oceans have large areas that are the equivalent of salt water deserts.
Something else to remember is that your vessels can't back up. These should also give you some ideas for problems your characters can encounter and deal with.
--The creatures and leems don't travel by sea, they are isolated on a large, freshwater lake. The emergency sail takes care of unusual problems. In storms, which are usually not severe due to their protected climate, they harbor at the nearest island asap. The leems have retractable rain covers, too.

Yes, I have two books out now with critters that resemble plesiosaurs used to power vessels, but the vessels have twin hulls like a catamaran so that the critter is sheltered in between thus removing the control problem. You don't have to teach the critter to turn. The rudder does the turning for both the critter and vessel at the same time.

-- That idea sounds really interesting! My critters aren't reptilian, they are mammals. You beat my design by thinking of a catamaran, very cool. I will keep designing, thanks again.

Taurus Rising

04-28-2006, 11:43 AM

It's kind of funny, as I was just thinking about C.S. Lewis's use of prophesies in the Narnia series. A prophesy that has an all-to-clear meaning, and comes about exactly the way it sounds, certainly can be pretty boring. At least when C.S. Lewis got started, the genre cliches weren't too well established.

But it's interesting how his use of prophesy started to change. In The Silver Chair, there's prophesy, but it is a set of sometimes cryptic directions based on future events. And then the characters go and miss the first one entirely, get into several arguements about whether they actually fulfilled the third one, and when the situaution to use the fourth sign pops up, it seems to be suicidal to obey it. Now that's a more interesting use of prophesy.

:) Now That I also like. If you folks keep this up I'm going to end up scratching that point off my list.

Silverhand

04-28-2006, 09:31 PM

Well, many gods in traditional mythology *weren't* really omnipotent, in the full Judeo-Christian sense.

It depends again on how you define "god", as in, with a capital G, or just a "really powerful being"?

Another REALLY important issue is how people in your setting define gods. Think Conan "gods".

Also, if mortals in your world can *ascend* to godhood, then it should also make sense that they could bring about a god's downfall.

What if the mortal has another deity's help?

"If it bleeds, then it can die"- or something. :)

-Your Fantasy/Sci-Fi Board Devil's Advocate, Glutton

Hi Glutton,

That is the thing. In the past...mentioned gods...werent really gods. They may be immortal beings of nearly supreme power, but are lacking in actual godhood, even if they are defined as a god.

By this I mean that if something is immortal...and a god...by its nature it should not be able to die. I am the kind of person that believes if a work of art lays down a groundwork or absolutes...then those absolutes should not be broken. It just happens that the absolutes I hold on too are part of a monotheistic view of the world. Thus the Greek Gods do not really equal gods. They might have been powerful...and primal...and all other things. But, if you believed in God...then he allowed them to exist...and thus they arent really gods...by any definition.

Anyways, anyways, my own world uses a pantheon. My catch, however, is that the gods do not realize that they are really just angels. And, when God comes back around...their whole existence will be called into question.

/shurg

glutton

04-29-2006, 05:15 PM

So really, what you're saying is that you don't consider any "gods" who aren't pretty much God to actually be gods. But does that mean you dislike any works that feature such false "gods", or just that you look at those beings and conclude, "Oh, those aren't really gods" and leave it at that?

Silverhand

04-30-2006, 07:08 AM

It is not really that I dont like worlds that use 'gods'. I really like The Forgotten Realms, for example. It just really irritates me when the universe these gods exist in are....either portrayed as omnipotent...and then killed. Or, they are hampered in some way. Like I was saying if the author sets down rules that say the gods are....THE GODS....then let them stay that way. Really, the only thing that should be capable of killing a god is another god. I dunno if that makes total sense or not, but it has really become my pet peeve...lol

glutton

04-30-2006, 05:00 PM

So you're fine if the author doesn't establish the "gods" as all-powerful, right? Best example of this I can think of is sword and sorcery "gods" that are worshipped by humans, but turn out to be big animals... Or how about the Silmarlion, where one of the most powerful elves was able to give Morgoth, a godlike being, a really close fight?

Also, how do you decide whether the rules the author lays down are really rules for his world, or just the rules the characters in the setting believe (but might not actually be true)? For example, the snake cultists might think their big serpent is an all-powerful deity, but how does the reader know it's really a big snake? You won't, and you may conclude it is a real god. Then say somebody kills it- would that be bad? The author's intention all along is that it is not a real god, but a snake, but how would the reader know that when the people who establish the snake's power are its worshippers?

I guess my real question is, how can you say the author has really defined the gods as omnipotent unless you actually talk to him/her personally? How are the "rules" defined? Sure, the narrator may say they are all-powerful, but narrators can be imperfect, especially in first or limited third POV. And the gods may have big feats, but how big=omnipotent? In Greek and Norse mythology, even the beings that created the world weren't totally all-powerful.

Or a situation where the character think the gods are omnipotent at first, and find out that isn't the case?

Where is the line drawn where you will say, yes, the author says they are omnipotent, or no, they are just really powerful?

Aries Walker

05-05-2006, 06:49 PM

Well, I'm a little behind in this thread, but I'll throw in my tuppence.

I think the best use for the fantasy or science fiction genre is to use it to say something about the "real" world. Wide, sweeping statements can be said about nuclear proliferation, the destruction of the environment, over-industralization, power, racism, treachery, and greed, to name but a few, by showing their reflections in a fantasy world.

Although it's not a literary source, few have done this as well as Star Trek. Roddenberry was able to explore what it means to be human a lot by including Spock and Data in the universe he created. Klingons served as the parallels to the Soviet Union - militaristic and grim-jawed in the 60's, adapting to a new world in the late 80's.

Along the same lines, the fantasy/sci-fi writer can do the same with elves, dwarves, dragons, goblins, and wizards in their own world. Tolkien definitely did with the whole Isengard-gouging-the-environment-until-the-environment-fights-back thing, and the wolves in Narnia had something to say about secret police.

Regarding magic, there exists a tendency supernatural events as simply, "because it's magic!" That sort of thinking is best left to role-playing games, and is a main reason (in my mind) why novels derived from RPG's are generally not as good as fantasy novels which are not. It's like explaining a flashlight to a Neanderthal by the same method; the world in which fantasy novels are set becomes much more intriguing if the magical equivalent of the switch, bulb and batteries are present, even if they are not fully explained.

MattW

05-07-2006, 08:33 AM

I'm not sure of SF/F as a vehicle for overt political commentary. And Star Trek is about as transparent in that as it gets.

Deep discussion of the human condition and character interaction can make for a great story, but nothing turns me off more than heavy handed lecturing from a biased position.

RTH

05-08-2006, 09:55 PM

Ah, the curse of the fantasy writer: how NOT to re-hash Tolkien? I bet 95% of the fantasy novels I read failed on that line...

some that didn't? Stephen King's Dark Tower Series, George R.R. Martin's Fire & Ice books, and most anything by Neil Gaiman. Those are great fantasies, I think, because the authors just went out and did what they wanted without trying to live up to ol' J.R.R.

In a way, I think that reading fantasy books is the worst thing a fantasy writer can do for him/herself. Tolkien certainly didnt have access to a lot, and neither did C.S. Lewis (with a few exceptions). I think the reason they were able to be so original is because they didn't have any prior experience to limit their imaginations...

argenianpoet

05-14-2006, 09:58 AM

I must say that fantasy is any place that you can see, taste and feel with your literary senses. The most important aspect of fantasy is originality, and that is not confined to any 'one' definition. I write realistic/fantasy, because I feel that people relate more to stuff they already know, (cars, trains, houses, etc.). The trick is to write it in such a way that it is yours, and you do that by digging deep inside yourself. Stories, worlds, and characters come from experiences in our lives, articles of our memories and deepest emotions. Draw from that well and forget the ogres and orcs and magic. Allow the story to breath its own mysticism and you might be surprised with the end result. I just finished a 250k action/adventure fantasy set on a world in a far away galaxy, but I made people feel like they were on Earth. I write because I enjoy it; it takes me to another place whether that place is full of destruction or full of peace...the beauty is that you get to decide. Fantasy comes from the heart of the writer I believe and from his deepest most inner secrets. My advice is to use the skeleton key and enter the gates of imagination; inside is a garden display unlike any you have ever seen before...

Merricat

05-14-2006, 08:48 PM

Oh no, one of the RPGs I played had dark elves too (drow) - but my point was that it shouldn't JUST be a 'dark elf' that is evil. It seems unrealistic that ALL the elves of the typical "good" race should be "good". Wouldn't it seem more realistic to believe that an elf has the potential for evil just as much as a human? And wouldn't it also seem possible that at least some of those elves with the potential for evil actually were evil?

I've been playing Warcraft 3 lately, which is based on a strategy game called Warhammer, and two of the heroes (human and elf) turn into bad guys at the end of their particular story arcs.

You also get to play a story arc where the main characters are good, misunderstood Orcs.

Summonere

05-20-2006, 12:06 AM

Q: I'm just curious to hear what makes for a great fantasy novel to you.

A: Something I haven’t thought of. Something intellectually and emotionally engaging.

I think too many people have the idea that fantasy is what is commonly sold on bookshelves when, in fact, fantasy encompasses much more than what is usually seen there. And what is usually seen there? Books of epic quests, talismans of this or that, elves, dwarves, giants, wizards, sword-swinging barbarians, pseudo-medieval settings, dragons, witches ... and so on.

But fantasy also includes work by writers such as Ellison, Borges, Calvino, Twain, Miéville, stories in which you will find none of the usual “fantasy” artifacts listed above.

The farther a writer moves from the “usual” kinds of fantasy, the better I like the work. But that’s because I spent a lot of happy time as a wee tyke reading what musta been a million of those “usual” fantasy stories. So much so that I reached a critical mass of oversaturation from which I never recovered. (Well, not yet, anyhow.)

Thus do I seek the new, the “something I haven’t thought of” yet, something that is most unlike what I once, and perhaps still, knew oh so well.