'of the'

cooeedownunder · Jun 20, 2011

I've been reading a little editing guide today and I am not understanding why we don't use possessive for some nouns in the following examples. The guide basically says that with few exceptions, the words of the are not needed. It says to take an adjectival or possessive approach to nouns

examples

the manager of the bank
better as
the bank manager

the president of the company
better as
the company president

the cover of the book
better as
the book cover

the owner of the horse
better as
the horse's owner

I was fine until I hit the last one. Now, I don't understand why they all don't have 's

I have a few sentences which I changed based on the above and don't understand what requires the 's or why only the horse one has it?

The doors of the hospital
The hospital doors?

The records of the hospital
The hosptial records?

Xelebes · Jun 20, 2011

The only difference I can see is that a horse is animate. No idea if that has anything to do with it.

lastlittlebird · Jun 20, 2011

I could be wrong (and probably am) but I think you can do any of those sentences both ways:
the horse's owner and the horse owner.
The first sentence puts emphasis on a particular horse. The big horse's owner. So the horse is a big horse.
The second sentence puts emphasis on the owner bit. Perhaps this owner has lots of little horses, for example instead of one big one. All we know is he is an owner of horses. The big horse owner. He might also be a sizable person.

Same thing works for other sentences: The white hospital's doors. The white hospital doors. The terrible book's cover. The terrible book cover.

Again, I am mostly guessing, so take it with a grain of salt.

Sharii · Jun 21, 2011

To me, 'the horse's owner' sounds like you're talking about this particular horse, and you're identifying its owner. While 'the horse owner' sounds like you're just talking about a guy who happens to own horses.

But this is just my guess, and a standard ESL disclaimer applied.

Kenn · Jun 21, 2011

I think there are inherent dangers in using simple rules like these. For example, 'the bank manager' identifies a person by his job title, but 'the manager of the bank' identifies a person by his position in a given bank. You might be able to use the former, but then again you might not.

As for the horse, then a 'horse owner' owns a horse (any horse). The 'horse's owner' identifies the owner of a particular horse. By the same line of reasoning, you might say 'the bank's manager', but most banks I come across have a couple of hundred of these

Bufty · Jun 21, 2011

It is an editing guide to which the OP is referring.

It's not stating writing rules of any sort.

It's totally subjective to my eye.

No one way is 'better' than another.

Depends on context and what the objective is in considering removal of 'of the'.

One may be seeking to improve clarity or reduction of word count.... or whatever.

Puma · Jun 21, 2011

My 1960's vintage college handbook says not to use the possessive case with inanimate objects - use a phrase beginning with of instead.

And looking at your examples, I think this is the rule they're using to back up the advice they're giving.

And, I don't think you'd always want the possessive on horse in your example of horse's owner. If you were speaking about a particular horse - then yes. If you're speaking about any old horse (and are really speaking about the owner), then no. Examples:

The horse's owner took him to the stables.

The horse owner will want to make sure the girth is not too tight.

And both of those fit into your "of the" question. Puma

Jamesaritchie · Jun 21, 2011

None of the others are written as possessives. A possessive doesn't automatically mean owning something, of course, and we've all seen such things as a day's travel, but a company president is seldom going to be written a company's president, simply because it isn't necessary to show possessive.

The horse, on the other hand, does have an owner who is in possession of the horse.

IceCreamEmpress · Jun 21, 2011

cooeedownunder said:
I've been reading a little editing guide today

When you say "editing guide" here, do you mean a specific organization's guide to its preferred house style, or a general handbook on editing and usage?

On the difference between "the horse's owner" and "the horse owner," I can see how context would determine which to use.

"After my car was stomped by a runaway stallion, the damage was paid for by the horse's owner."
"Entry fees for the show are the responsibility of each horse owner."

Susan Coffin · Jun 21, 2011

For each example, the second phrase is cleaner than the first--two words to say the same thing as the longer phrases.

Rufus Coppertop · Jun 21, 2011

It's easier and more succint to use appositional phrases in most of these cases. "Bank manager". Two nouns, one gives more info about the other.

It wouldn't be incorrect to say "the bank's manager" or the "manager of the bank" both of which obviously are in the possessive case.

It surprises me that your editing guide says of the is usually not needed, then tells you to take a possessive approach to nouns.

Using "of the" is actually taking a possessive approach!

cooeedownunder · Jun 22, 2011

Thank you. I realise after your comments why I was confused, there wasn't a reason to be. I thought he'd thrown in a curve ball, which isn't the case.

I was suprise to discover I had so many 'of the' phrases and replaced quite a few, but then got caught up on the 's

The guide is an Australian guide called Editing Made Easy - by Bruce Kaplan. I found it extremely easy to understand and follow because it doesn't really go on about correct gramma and such, but things that are usually caught by editors and altered for various reasons, like Bufty said, for better clarity, sharper sentences, or reducing word count.

All the sentences I changed I believe are better for the loss of those two little words, which were slowing the pace. Others I didn't change but it's beyond me to explain easily why, except to say they didn't fit the examples in the same manner.

Rufus Coppertop · Jun 22, 2011

cooeedownunder said:
it's beyond me to explain easily why, except to say they didn't fit the examples in the same manner.

Sometimes we just know intuitively whether something's working or not or whether it can be improved or needs improvement.

cooeedownunder · Jun 22, 2011

That's it boy

RobJ · Jun 22, 2011

cooeedownunder said:
I've been reading a little editing guide today and I am not understanding why we don't use possessive for some nouns in the following examples. The guide basically says that with few exceptions, the words of the are not needed. It says to take an adjectival or possessive approach to nouns

examples

the manager of the bank
better as
the bank manager

the president of the company
better as
the company president

the cover of the book
better as
the book cover

the owner of the horse
better as
the horse's owner

I was fine until I hit the last one. Now, I don't understand why they all don't have 's

Most of the ones you've listed are effectively compound nouns. There may be other contexts in which you'd express them in the possessive form. It's usually clear from the context.

Jonathan Dalar · Jun 22, 2011

Both versions are genitive constructions in the English language. Both are correct in usage.

Style varies. I have heard that "the bank's owner" rather than "the owner of the bank" is preferred the majority of the time, but simply for brevity. It falls under a similar usage as all those "extra thats" people sometimes go on about.

The difference is that it sounds awkward with the apostrophe construction with certain word combinations. I personally use the construction that flows off the tongue the best.

'of the'

cooeedownunder

Grateful for the day

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

lastlittlebird

avem narrans

Sharii

I draw comics, lots of comics.

Kenn

New kid, be gentle!

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Jamesaritchie

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

Rufus Coppertop

cooeedownunder

Grateful for the day

Rufus Coppertop

cooeedownunder

Grateful for the day

RobJ

Jonathan Dalar

Science fiction, horror and fantasy