Love Scenes?

[Celia Cyanide]

I was just working on a section of a novel, a scene between the main character and a minor one, and something unexpected has happened. I noticed that she wants to sleep with him. Since I am the author and all, I could probably stop her. Yet it occurs to me that he would probably want to sleep with her, too, and the only reason why I would not let her do it would be because I do not want to write a love scene.

I've never really written a love scene before, and I don't know if I'm comfortable with it, to be honest. To those of you who write/have written them, how do you decide if they are really "needed"? If they don't signify what the novel is really about (because, in this case, this book is not going to be about these two characters falling in love) how much detail do you feel you should to go into? Might it be better if I start a chapter from where the love scene would have just ended, so the reader would think, "Hey, what a minute! Did they just do it?"

This isn't another one of Celia's Stupid Questions [TM]. I really wanna know. I think maybe I'm a little concerned that someone might read it and think, "Of course she just had to throw a love scene in there," when, in fact, the opposite is true.

[azbikergirl]

Sometimes sexual tension creates good conflict. How long would they be willing to wait? If there aren't any opportunities for them until later, could that benefit your story?

I'm facing a similar dilemma in my WIP. The main story has nothing to do with romance, but there's a necessary subplot which does. For several reasons, I need to get two of my characters in bed together (thankfully, they are both willing!), but I'm not sure how explicit to make it. In my case, pulling the curtain wouldn't quite cut it, but I've never written anything so steamy before.

[AdamH]

I was just working on a section of a novel, a scene between the main character and a minor one, and something unexpected has happened. I noticed that she wants to sleep with him. Since I am the author and all, I could probably stop her. Yet it occurs to me that he would probably want to sleep with her, too, and the only reason why I would not let her do it would be because I do not want to write a love scene.

I suppose it all depends on how pivotal and important this "meeting" is going to be in the story. If it's going to be a one-night-stand type thing then I probably wouldn't waste too much time on it. Maybe mention something in passing...them waking up the next day...stuff like that. If it's more than that (like if she does influence him to make a decision he wouldn't normally have made before he met her) then I'd probably include more details.

But, personally, I try to avoid writing love scenes if I can because I'm so horrible at writing them. So take that for what you will. :)

[kristie911]

My advice...just go for it. Write it, walk away then come back and read it over. If it's too explicit you can edit. If it's not enough, keep going but you'll never know until you actually put it on paper. I've actually gotten compliments from my betas on my love scenes and I actually blushed as I wrote them! After a couple it just becomes like any other writing...

My coworkers actually find it disturbing that I can write a sex scene at work between answering phones! lol

[Storyteller5]

I've read a lot of books where it doesn't go into great detail on that. For example, the chapter ends with them heading to bed and the next chapter starts with either them lying in bed afterwards or one of them leaving thinking about what they had done. I can't think of an example off hand, but I'll try to find a title I can post for you.

If you aren't comfortable writing the sexual details and it's not integral to your story, don't go into it. There are ways to indicate it happened.

[emeraldcite]

Ask yourself what you need from the scene.

If the implication of sex is all that's important, then work around the scene. Show the characters going off to bed, but not necessarily in bed (or couch, or loveseat, or washing machine...)

If something happens during the sex or because of it, the use it.

If it's part of the genre, then it should, by all means, be juicy.

But it comes back around to the question: what should the reader take away from this moment and how do I best demonstrate it?

[inanna]

I've had to cope with this stuff quite a bit lately (my love scenes at the moment feel pretty cringe-worthy) but I'll share some of the best advice I've run across so far.

The rules of thumb for sex scenes are very similar to those for dialogue in that a love scene should serve to advance the plot, reveal character, or illustrate a transformation taking place in one or both characters. Ideally, it should do more than one of these things simultaneously. (the exception is probably straight-up erotica)

There's a well known "test" for determining if your sex scene is gratuitous (I forget who to credit for it): if you can substitute "and then they had sex" for your love scene in your manuscript without taking anything away from the story, then there is a good chance your scene is more of a titillating filler than a legitimate scene that advances the plot. (not that there's anything wrong with titillating--I have yet to achieve even that :))

Sara Donati is an author who did a great series about this on her blog. She has them indexed if you want to check it out:

http://www.tiedtothetracks.com/storytelling (http://www.tiedtothetracks.com/storytelling)

[Celia Cyanide]

Wow! You guys are awesome! That is very helpful! Thanks so much!

You brought up a lot of things I never would have thought of before. First of all, when I read, I notice that love scenes are only really interesting to me if they are very awkward, or uncomfortable. One thing I noticed when developing the male character was that when you look at him, he seems very suave and confident, but when you sit down and talk to him, he's a bit awkward. He doesn't make eye contact, he says strange things, and he doesn't really answer your questions. He knows a little more about what is going on than the main character does, so I think that if they became intimately involved, if only once, it actually could advance the plot, and reveal more about the characters. What he is like in that situation would probably reveal more about how weird he is, and how she reacts to it would reveal more about her.

As it now stands, he could probably take it or leave it, but she would not be willing to wait much longer. I noticed that another problem I would have with it would be that I would not feel comfortable writing them having casual, unprotected sex. I know that real people have that, but I am a firm believer in safe sex, and I would rather portray that as the right thing to do. Right now, she has no way to get condoms, or water soluble spermicidal lubricant. But he does. So if he gets a little more interested, maybe it will happen. :)

Thanks again, everyone for your advice. You're the best!

[Sage]

Yes, you should definitely decide whether it's going to add something to the story. Will the characters change due to this? Will it turn out to be important to the MC that they slept together? Will it make their relationship uncomfortable in other places, or will it turn out to be something that will come up again later in the story? I agree w/ pretty much everything that the others have said. And just remember that it doesn't have to be explicit.

Sadly I have written a love scene that I am very happy w/. It's not super-explicit, & when talked about later, it's euphenized (as another race has another way of describing sex). It is very important to the plot. Why am I worried about it, then? My novel's going to be a YA sci-fi/fantasy book, & I'm worried that I'm going to be told that there can't be any sex in it at all. :cry:

[scarletpeaches]

My love scenes make me cringe while I'm writing them but when I go back later, they don't seem too bad, and not as spicy as I at first thought. Distance calms the blood pressure and makes me more objective.

All those throbbing manhoods and blossoming flowers do take it out of me, though.

[TeddyG]

I was just working on a section of a novel, a scene between the main character and a minor one, and something unexpected has happened. I noticed that she wants to sleep with him. Since I am the author and all, I could probably stop her. Yet it occurs to me that he would probably want to sleep with her, too, and the only reason why I would not let her do it would be because I do not want to write a love scene.

I've never really written a love scene before, and I don't know if I'm comfortable with it, to be honest. To those of you who write/have written them, how do you decide if they are really "needed"? If they don't signify what the novel is really about (because, in this case, this book is not going to be about these two characters falling in love) how much detail do you feel you should to go into? Might it be better if I start a chapter from where the love scene would have just ended, so the reader would think, "Hey, what a minute! Did they just do it?"

This isn't another one of Celia's Stupid Questions [TM]. I really wanna know. I think maybe I'm a little concerned that someone might read it and think, "Of course she just had to throw a love scene in there," when, in fact, the opposite is true.

Interesting questions .. interesting remarks and answers. So before I even say anything...well, you call it a love scene, and immediately everyone assumed that you were talking of an explicit sex scene...or am I mistaken?

I think a love scene is one animal, an explicit sex scene another animal.
Even if the protoganist does want to "sleep" with her and she with him.
And there is nothing wrong, actually if done correctly it increases tension by letting the reader think "did they just do it?"

If it is explicit sex scene..then to my mind, it should entice and arouse the reader. If it can do that, with the poetry of passion and sex then great. I don't know and am not an expert on the moving of the plot. Sometimes, plot's do not have to move at the speed of light. Sometimes it is great just to enjoy the moment.

If it is a love scene then the language of romance and love must go with it, which kind of demands a deeper involvement of the characters I think.

If it is a combo of both...with all the above...all I can say is Wow! Let me read it! :banana:

Teddy

[henriette]

i've found that it's sometimes sexier to read the scene leading up to the moment of truth and the scene afterwards, but the actual sex is left out of it.

has anyone seen the movie "closer"? the entire film is about sex, sexual power, adultery, obsession etc. but there is not one real sex scene in it. yet, the film is incredibly powerful and sexy, as it leaves the actual sex to the viewer's imagination.

one person's sexy is another person's icky, so i think i'm going to let my reader imagine the sexiest scene possible in their own minds. besides, i giggle every time i try to type the word "manhood"... :)

[azbikergirl]

WRT terminology, I dislike the 'manhood' and 'flower' business as well as the more crass words such as the synonyms for male chicken and cat. Proper terminology is just too clinical. Any suggestions?

[Celia Cyanide]

one person's sexy is another person's icky, so i think i'm going to let my reader imagine the sexiest scene possible in their own minds. besides, i giggle every time i try to type the word "manhood"... :)

Tee hee...do you prefer "tingly naughty parts"? Hahaha! That's the problem I have with it, too...the emphemisms make me laugh harder than the real words! Fanny Hill was supposed to be great because it didn't use one dirty word...well, yeah, but I thought it was a masterpiece of comedy! I didn't think it was possible for one novel to use the word "engorged" so many times!

I think that's the problem with eroticism in books. It's kind of like humor in the sense that you can tell it's supposed to be sexy, but if it's not to you, then it just sounds embarassing. Like comedy that doesn't make you laugh.

I think I will write the sex scene, and have it be really awkward, because this guy becomes more awkward the closer you get to him. Then the reader will understand that this isn't really supposed to be hot. And if it really doesn't work out at all, I can begin from the point of right after it happened.

Sage, I think that would also be interesting to see how this effects what goes on afterward between the two characters. And TeddyG, I agree with what you say about how "sometimes the plot does not have to move at the speed of light." Because not everything that happens in a story is directly related to the final outcome. Sometimes, it's about every little thing that happens along the way.

henriette, I haven't seen Closer, but will have to check it out. My background is in film more that literature, so that would probably be helpful.

[henriette]

fanny hill! haha- i took it out of the library in high school and was i ever confused. i remember the librarian looked at me funny but didn't say a word about it. she must have thought i was a dirty little girl, but what did i know?

celia, if your character is awkward, perhaps you could write just the dialogue in the scene and leave out the descriptions? it might be kind of funny like:

he: "mmm...do you like that?"

she: "OW!"

he: "sorry...are you ok?"

she: "yes, i'm ok..."

he:"i can't get this thing to come off..."

she: "here, let me do it!"

[scarletpeaches]

I'm safe, because the two manly heroes of my next novel suffer from floppy spam javelin syndrome, and premature custard chucking, so no love scenes there!



Oh hell, I apologise for my immaturity. It made me laugh and it makes me look like a primary school kid, but hey...I'll stay away from this thread in future and behave. :)

[henriette]

please don't behave scarlet! :)

[inanna]

has anyone seen the movie "closer"? the entire film is about sex, sexual power, adultery, obsession etc. but there is not one real sex scene in it. yet, the film is incredibly powerful and sexy, as it leaves the actual sex to the viewer's imagination.

I lovelovelove that movie. So well done. No sex scenes, but so unflinching in the way it addresses all those issues mentioned that I still felt like I needed a cigarette at the end. That scene in the strip club's lap dance room? Pitch perfect.

Celia, I think your angle for your character sounds terrific. Sex scenes don't need to advance the plot in a way where the characters have to solve the mystery or crack the da Vinci code in the middle of it, but like any scene, they need tension and conflict, a reason for the reader to keep reading other than just the sex act itself (explicit or not). I know a lot of people (though I'm not one of them) who skim or skip sex scenes altogether because they think they're boring and unnecessary. My only pet peeve is manhoods and love tunnels--as long as I dont run across any wacky euphemisms, I'm cool with it.

[TeddyG]

laughing at the antics...
But seriously though..maybe its a "female" thing at AW board...

There are ways to use the "crass" words and make them incredibly erotic and sexy.. and I am not talking about "manhood"! (is the opp. to that "femalehood"?)

Nature gave us our plumbing. If you look at it in a crass way it comes out crass. If you picture in your mind...mmm..lets see

Remember Male perspective follows..though I think I could do it in female perspective as well (no comments from the peanut gallery please!)

Saying something like .. "her nipples were hard and I grabbed her.." yep that is crass...
but there are a million and one ways to describe that...

The fingers upon the flesh...dancing with light fingertips softly caressing the underside of the breasts, feeling her breath begin to quicken and watching as her nipples hardened before the graze of his fingertips even reached the rings around them...

Now that is not edited and it needs help...but just as an idea...

Anyway...continue on those lines I would think..and it comes out erotic not crass...

I would try and give a more detailed example but I don't know what gets X rated here at the AW board! (and of course I want to remain an innocent newbie!)

Don't know if any of this helps...but...sex is poetic..it flows..it is passion and poetry and raw animal instincts...

Use that it will be beautiful...or else you can always have your characters rip each other's clothes off and just "do it"!

Teddy

(am i gonna get in trouble for this post?)

[scarletpeaches]

If you wanted to be romantic, you could say "They played trains and tunnels all night long. No sooner had she let him put his pee-pee in her cookie, than he began to play her body like a violin [see what I did there? Cliche makes sex better. Fact.] and she..."

You see what I mean. Booker Prize material, obviously.

[TeddyG]

If you wanted to be romantic, you could say "They played trains and tunnels all night long. No sooner had she let him put his pee-pee in her cookie, than he began to play her body like a violin [see what I did there? Cliche makes sex better. Fact.] and she..."



Okay now that you have me breathless...WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

[kristie911]

Somehow I feel like we've taken a hard (no pun intended) right and landed in the gutter! lol

<still laughing at the phrase "trains and tunnels">

[TeddyG]

ears perk...someone say gutter????????

[jackie106]

Okay now that you have me breathless...WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

He eats her cookie?

[James D. Macdonald]

First, the master answer: If it works, it's right.

Second, the obvious: You won't know if it works until you write it.

Third, the necessary: HapiSofi's post on Sex Scenes (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82911#post82911) (if you haven't printed that one out and tacked it to your wall -- you should).

[Supafly]

Sex scenes should always involve more of delving into your characters pysches than anything else. The sex itself, unless its pornographic material, should not even detail every little thing that is happening. Its often much more sexier to imply what is happening whether than tell exactly what is happening. Some people have the propensity to write a sex scene and turn it into an anatomy lesson. Avoid this. Instead, describe what the characters are feeling with each touch, each little motion. Does it tickle when their fingers run along their skin? Does the man actually want this? The reader can learn a lot about the characters involved from a sex scene if it is done right. Afterall, human sexuality shows a lot about each person in real life.

[Celia Cyanide]

Wow! Thanks, Uncle Jim! That was helpful, not to mention an interesting read. This part was something I hadn't thought of:

"talk your sweetie into helping you stage these scenes in real life. See if they're actually erotic, not to mention feasible. If they aren't, don't write them."

Okay, that's it. I'm taking a break from my novel, and off to do some research...

[Monet]

I find that when I have several love scenes in the same novel, the words I use sound too much like I am just copying the scene from earlier in the book. It's different, but still too much the same. I tend to use flowery phrases and want to back away from that kind of language while still keeping it romantic instead of hard and forceful.

I don't have too much of a problem writing a 'sex' scene as it is a scene that seems like it should be hard and forceful in that they are diving right into it. (no pun intended)

Does anyone know of a writing 'guide' book that would spark some good ideas in the language area?

[aruna]

Sex scenes should always involve more of delving into your characters pysches than anything else. .

Exactly! Also, it is possible to write very intensive, heart wrenching love stories without so much as a kiss. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve, and what you want your reader to feel.

[Sharon Mock]

See-through lace-ruffled sex cozies! (Sorry, I just had to see that again...)

My two cents on love/sex scenes, because I'm ever so much an expert...

A self-described pornographer gave me excellent advice: sex is just an action sequence, not some disconnected scene cut and paste into the story. Language and tone should match the rest of the story, unless there's a very good reason for it not to.

Personally, I'd modify it somewhat... sex is just an action sequence with extra added embarrassment.

If a scene's important enough to be in the story, it's important enough to write through the squick. On the other hand, not all scenes are worth the trouble to either write or read. This is true not only for sex, but for anything painful or uncomfortable to write about.

When it comes to sex scenes, "explicit" can mean two things. One is "pornographic." The other is "written in such a way that it's always clear what's being done to whom, and in what manner." It's entirely possible for a scene to be explicit in one way but not the other.

Most of the time the details don't matter. Sometimes all that matters is that they have sex. Often the most important thing is why they have sex. But when how they have sex matters, you can't get away with eliding it.

Has anybody else in this thread seen A History of Violence?

[Celia Cyanide]

Has anybody else in this thread seen A History of Violence?

No, I haven't, but can I ask why you brought it up? David Cronenberg, IMO, is a genius, and I have seen, and own, all of his films up until this one.

[Writer2011]

I've never been able to write good sex scenes. However these posts have helped me some and I wanted to thank you all for that :)

[Sharon Mock]

Cronenberg does amazing things with using sex as a narrative tool. I want to write scenes like that -- where if they were elided to "and then they had sex," the whole story would fail. The whole movie is excellent. Highly recommended to anybody who can tolerate the violence (which is, IMO, solidly R-rated but not all that bad. The realism and context made it paradoxically easier to take. Sin City and Kill Bill were far more difficult).

My husband joins you on the Cronenberg worship bench. I have more delicate sensibilities -- no, really! -- so I have, for example, not yet gotten up the courage to watch Crash.

[MadScientistMatt]

WRT terminology, I dislike the 'manhood' and 'flower' business as well as the more crass words such as the synonyms for male chicken and cat. Proper terminology is just too clinical. Any suggestions?

Sure... what words would your characters use? I'm not sure how many people would ever use the word "manhood" in everyday conversation unless they wanted to be comical.

[azbikergirl]

That's a good question, MSMatt. My male character would tend toward the more unrefined words, but he's cognizant of how his lady might react to them. I do like the suggestion that the characters' inner experiences be more emphasized than the physical. What they do to each other is far less important than the bonding going on.

[James D. Macdonald]

No, I haven't, but can I ask why you brought it up? David Cronenberg, IMO, is a genius, and I have seen, and own, all of his films up until this one.

As it happens I did see A History of Violence this last weekend. I thought it was a beautiful little three-act play.

The violence, and the sex, was necessary to the plot. While graphic, it wasn't gratuitous.

(And it worked on a whole lot of levels, with mythic overlays -- when an old man with one eye shows up and calls you by your True Name, the ravens will feast before the saga is done.)

[emeraldcite]

It would be interesting to take the same love scene and rewrite it various ways. For example, take the scene and write it from the viewpoint of different styles of romance (think the sub-categories of harlequin), from the vantage point of smut, from the POV of the male or female (or written by a male or female author)...


Or, with much less work, take some scenes from these different POVs and compare them in terms of how they advance the plot or how they function in the text. Might be a good exercise, or an exercise in futility...

just another not-so-well-thought-out thought from me...lol ... too many hyphens...too many ellipses. I think I'm out of control. I'm giddy with all this love.:Hug2::kiss:

[Sage]

First, the master answer: If it works, it's right.

Second, the obvious: You won't know if it works until you write it.

Third, the necessary: HapiSofi's post on Sex Scenes (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82911#post82911) (if you haven't printed that one out and tacked it to your wall -- you should).

HapiSofi gets so many bonus points from me for citing Buffy :kiss:

Oh, & it's a very good & helpful read too.

[Celia Cyanide]

It would be interesting to take the same love scene and rewrite it various ways. For example, take the scene and write it from the viewpoint of different styles of romance (think the sub-categories of harlequin), from the vantage point of smut, from the POV of the male or female (or written by a male or female author)...

That sounds like a really fun writing exercise! Maybe someone should take it to games and prompts...:)

On the subject of Cronenberg, it just so happens that I watched Dead Ringers last night. It's so strange how all his films are about sex, in some way, and yet when he talks about them, he acts as if they are about something else entirely, and he's still right. Crash is pretty amazing, but a lot of people don't like it. The funny thing about it is that so many people who don't like it say, "I heard the book was better," but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, "I read that book, and it's better." I read the book. And J.G. Ballard loves the film. Cronenberg captured the weirdness and the images of the book perfectly. I think most of those people who didn't like the film wouldn't like the book either, because it's just the whole concept that turns them off. There isn't some hidden meaning in the book that the movie didn't capture. It's all there, and you either like it, or you don't.

It's interesting that you brought this up, Sharon, because I was thinking about Crash when I first wondered if I should put this sex scene in. Cronenberg was talking about the audience reaction at the premier screening. It starts out, bam, bam, bam, with three sex scenes right in a row. There was another in the original script, but it was cut out. He said the audience started laughing. His interpretation (which is probably accurate) was that the audience was used to sex scenes that were stuck in, resulting in no plot or character development. The sex could be easily removed for a TV version, and no one would miss it. In his film, the sex is the plot. But the audience wasn't used to that, and it was as if they were waiting for the film to start.

[MountainGirl]

I had to write one in my story and I was uncomfortable about writing it. I didn't want something that went into too much detail because I think our minds are capable of filling in the blanks, so to speak. So basically what I did was use some vague descriptions that you can picture how you want. Let the reader think for themselves.

Something like, "their bodies became one." (not the exact line mind you) Writing that is alot easier then going detail for detail as what actually happened. Some people can do that, more power to them, but for me I think they are better when the reader is left with a vague idea that they can elaborate on, on their own. But that's just my two cents!

[aruna]

I had to write one in my story and I was uncomfortable about writing it. I didn't want something that went into too much detail because I think our minds are capable of filling in the blanks, so to speak. So basically what I did was use some vague descriptions that you can picture how you want. Let the reader think for themselves.

Something like, "their bodies became one." (not the exact line mind you) Writing that is alot easier then going detail for detail as what actually happened. Some people can do that, more power to them, but for me I think they are better when the reader is left with a vague idea that they can elaborate on, on their own. But that's just my two cents!

If you are uncomfortable, maybe it's a sign that they don't belong in the book, not even in the vague form? Listen to yourself; don't think you HAVE to write a sex scene just because it's expected of you. It's only expected if you are writing erotica or similar genres, ie the readers are reading the book precisely FOR the sex scenes.

Many wonderful love srories have been written without a single sex scene. None of my books have a sex scene, even though they are all, in essence, love stories. I never once described people having sex, because it just doesn't matter; the description would hold back the story. Their LOVE is more important: how they feel for one another, their longing, their heartbreak. Describing a sex scene in a book where the "how" of the sex is not important is about as interesting as describing how a person eats a meal: "He piled the carrots onto the fork and placed it carefully between his lips. She twirled the spaghetti on her spoon, trying not to leave any tendrils hanging. The dessert was sweet; too sweet, she thought, and wondered if it was lacking in cinammon. He reached for the salt, and wondered if Carol would ever remember how he liked his omelette?"

OK, perhaps some literary readers like that kind of stuff; I tend to scan it and move on.

And what, for instance, if a man who is gentle in ordinary life is rough or neglectful at sex, and you want the reader to know? Simple. In one of my books I had my female character feeling empty, drained, afterwards, and angry at him; their relationship changed, and that was the main thing.

Some people enjoy writing sex scenes even in mainstream books, and then sure, they should go ahead. But if you don't enjoy writing it then be assured your reader won't enjoy reading it. It's perfectly OK to leave some things to the imagination. Don't ever believe you have to.

I have another reason for not writing sex scenes, but I'll get to that another time - gotta go now.

[banjo]

Sex is a necessary and natural part of life, whether it is with or without love. I think that writing should reflect that reality. I believe that the way sex is portrayed in a story should be consistent with the flavor of the story.

When I'm in the zone, writing first draft copy, the story is flowing naturally. I can always go back and edit later if I think it is too undiluted. But to censor myself during the creation process, interrupts the flow and detracts from the entire story.

I feel that if you find a vein of gold, you should follow the vein and keep the consistency homogeneous. Write the sex, if you opt to at all, consistent with the personalities of the characters and with the setting of the story.

Wartime battlefield sex will be very different from intimate love making of two soulmates who have finally found each other.

I don't have difficulty writing love or sex scenses. But if I did, I would learn what is needed to shore up that aspect of my writing, as I am now working on my adverb and adjective usage. Once secure in all aspects of my writing I could exercise the option to use whatever was necessary to write the best manuscript possible.

My 2 cents.

[maestrowork]

I think it's Stephen King who said this (paraphrase): have sex in mind when you write. It doesn't matter if your story is not about sex... think sex anyway.

As for sex scene, I agree with the poster who said it should show the psyches of the characters instead of just reporting who does what to whom. To have a sex scene because "oh the characters are in love and they must make love" is silly... but if the sex scene reveals how much they actually hate each other... now, that's interesting.

The most powerful sex scenes reveal so much about the characters and their relationships! Obviously, you don't have to have a sex scene if you don't want one, or if it's not necessary. But sex does sell. If you write these scene well, they do add to the story.

My $.002.

[scarletpeaches]

Sex is evil,
Evil is sin,
Sin's forgiven
So get stuck in.

My £00:02.

[Celia Cyanide]

As for sex scene, I agree with the poster who said it should show the psyches of the characters instead of just reporting who does what to whom. To have a sex scene because "oh the characters are in love and they must make love" is silly... but if the sex scene reveals how much they actually hate each other... now, that's interesting.

Well said, Maestro! If they love each other, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they have sex anyway, and you so don't need to explain it to me! It's like any other unnecessary detail. I think of it the way I would think of my friends' relationships. I assume they have sex, but I don't wonder what it looks like. They might mention it, but they don't go into detail.

[jst5150]

With "Violence," the sex scene lent credence to character -- on both sides of the coitus. When she discovered what she discovered about Viggo's character, she wanted to be immersed in it. It made sense. Whenever I see a film with a sex scene, I immediately wonder what its doing to tell me about the character (unless that film is "Friday the 13th Part 97. Then, I just figure it's sex that draws teens to the theater). Same thing applies for what's written. Is the passage about sex, or violence, or philanthropy, or insanity, going to lend depth and breadth to the characters involved. If not, then it's Jason Voorhees to the rescue.

Sidenote: William Hurt's in this movie. And he's not very good. In fact, Jon Lovitz could have played his role more skillfully

[Celia Cyanide]

(unless that film is "Friday the 13th Part 97. Then, I just figure it's sex that draws teens to the theater)

No way, dude! That sex is there to teach the moral lesson! What is the moral lesson? The same one it's been since the days of drive-in horror movies: Don't have sex, or you'll get killed by a giant Praying Mantis. Or a cat in a hockey mask. So you see, the sex in Friday The 13th really exists for the greater good of society.

[MountainGirl]

If you are uncomfortable, maybe it's a sign that they don't belong in the book, not even in the vague form? Listen to yourself; don't think you HAVE to write a sex scene just because it's expected of you. It's only expected if you are writing erotica or similar genres, ie the readers are reading the book precisely FOR the sex scenes.

Many wonderful love srories have been written without a single sex scene. None of my books have a sex scene, even though they are all, in essence, love stories. I never once described people having sex, because it just doesn't matter; the description would hold back the story. Their LOVE is more important: how they feel for one another, their longing, their heartbreak. Describing a sex scene in a book where the "how" of the sex is not important is about as interesting as describing how a person eats a meal: "He piled the carrots onto the fork and placed it carefully between his lips. She twirled the spaghetti on her spoon, trying not to leave any tendrils hanging. The dessert was sweet; too sweet, she thought, and wondered if it was lacking in cinammon. He reached for the salt, and wondered if Carol would ever remember how he liked his omelette?"

OK, perhaps some literary readers like that kind of stuff; I tend to scan it and move on.

And what, for instance, if a man who is gentle in ordinary life is rough or neglectful at sex, and you want the reader to know? Simple. In one of my books I had my female character feeling empty, drained, afterwards, and angry at him; their relationship changed, and that was the main thing.

Some people enjoy writing sex scenes even in mainstream books, and then sure, they should go ahead. But if you don't enjoy writing it then be assured your reader won't enjoy reading it. It's perfectly OK to leave some things to the imagination. Don't ever believe you have to.

I have another reason for not writing sex scenes, but I'll get to that another time - gotta go now.

Thanks for the input but its kind of an integral part of the story. Besides just because I am uncomfortable writing an explicit sex scene thats raunchy, doesnt mean I shouldnt inlclude a loving scene of two people experiencing something for the first time.

I read novels that include love scenes. I am not detered away from books that have it, I just dont feel comfortable describing detail for detail what occurs like some authors do. It's each person's own personal preference.

I think a strong powerful writer can get their point across without being vulgar as some stories I have seen are. But you are right if someone doesnt feel comfortable with the concept at all then they shouldn't write it into their stories.

[aruna]

It's true that sex sells, but it's not th eonly thing readers want. I came to certain conclusions through watching myself an dmy reactions to certain books. Two of my favourite books are Jane Eyre and Pride and Perjudice. Both are very moving love stories, yet without a single sex scene, and even without a single kiss. They don't suffer from that; in fact, they are both classics and P&P especially is more popular than ever. When reading books such as these, I get a sort of "sweet mushy" feeling inside. I feel that that mushy feeling comes mostly through the fact that the love is held back in a longing for the other; there is never the "volcanic outburst of lush exuberance"... oops sorry, getting carried away there...
I think it has to do with what someone said upstream, anbout not watching your friends having sex. If I walked into t aroom where a friend or my parents or whoever was having sex I'd back out again. Knowing "how" they have sex doesn't add one iota to how well I know them and their characters. In fact, it's intruding; I'd feel I'd crossed an invisible line somewhere. It's the same with characters in books. If I simply adore them, as I did, for instance, Elizabeth Bennet somehow it seems uncouth to intrude in them in such moments. It makes me feel like a voyeur; that soft, mushy feeling is gone.

I remember reading a book several years ago - this is the book that first woke me up to this observation, in fact. It was about an older woman, with flashback to her youth, when she was in love with someone she now met again after several years. I had grown to love this character. And then suddenly, near the end of the book, she was suddenly in the middle of a very graphic sex act with this guy, grunting and writhing. And teh emotional build-up just sort of collapsed for me, as if the air had been let out of a balloon. As if that very physical scene punctured the emotional bubble I was in.

I think, in mainstream novels, sex must be done very carefully and subtly. A good example - at least, it worked for me - was in For WHom the Bell Tolls. The characters did have sex - yet they kept that bitter-sweet aura; perhaps because you knew that they are going to be parted again, perhaps forever. The sex is never graphic - confined to things like "her long body" and the earth moving under them. The love was always stronger than the sex; it had me crying for days after I turned the last page. I think if the love story is really strong readers don't even notice the lack of sex. And for some reason I can't find strong love stories in today's books; they are all so cynical, so concerned with breaking the next taboo and avoiding the big feelings.

I know I'm not in the ranks of those authors, but they are the one I emulate. I want readers to feel the way I did on reading thier books.

[reph]

I remember reading a book...about an older woman....And then suddenly, near the end of the book, she was suddenly in the middle of a very graphic sex act with this guy, grunting and writhing. And teh emotional build-up just sort of collapsed for me.
Well, that's the peculiar thing about sex, isn't it? I mean there's so much distance between how it feels/what it means and what it looks like. An outside observer woud see and hear the physical action and miss the participants' experience. Maybe that writer fell down on the job and gave you a "grunting and writhing" scene without maintaining the character's POV as used in the rest of the book.

[aruna]

Well, that's the peculiar thing about sex, isn't it? I mean there's so much distance between how it feels/what it means and what it looks like. An outside observer woud see and hear the physical action and miss the participants' experience. Maybe that writer fell down on the job and gave you a "grunting and writhing" scene without maintaining the character's POV as used in the rest of the book.

Yes, maybe she just wrote that secene very badly - but maybe it didn't belong in th ebook inthe first place? "Seeing" them having sex certainly added nothing to the characters or the plot.

Yes, sex sells; but the opposite is also true. I have a friend who is a best-selling author in the UK: she always complains that Dan Brown with his 5 books in the Top Ten keeps her out of there herself. She told me she never has graphic sex scenes, and gets heaps of letters from people who thank her for exactly that. I believe the "sex sells" thing led to writers going overboard with their sex scenes. A backlash will come, and sooner or later it will all swing out to what is normal: if it's needed, it'll be there, if not, it won't. No "must" about it.

[maestrowork]

Like I said before... sex for sex's sake is boring and unnecessary. But if done well, and if they reveal characters or develop plot, sex scenes could be extremely powerful, evocative, provocative. Sex taps onto our primal levels of being human. Like everything else -- description, dialogue, violence, action, etc. -- "done well" are the key words. The problem with sex scenes is: it's difficult to do well. Either it's too graphic, or it's too ornate/flowery/sugar-coated/beat around the bush (puns not intended).

But by all means, if you don't want to write sex into your story, don't. It is your book. It is your story. Just don't say sex is a bad thing to write about... ;) I mean, I don't like to write about elves and won't put one in my books, but it doesn't mean elves are bad. ;)

[aruna]

Just don't say sex is a bad thing to write about... ;)

Oh, I didn't say that! Just (in novels), very often, overdone and gratitiuous! I think I said right at the begining, it all depends; on the writer's aim, and the intended reader response. And as you say, it's difficult to do well, and rather than let down your readers it might be better to shut the bedroom door. Always keeping in mind that I'm talking about books where the sex is not the main theme.

[pianoman5]

It's often said that sex is the best fun you can have without laughing. Although, in my experience, laughter does heighten the overall pleasure and connection, assuming you get the timing right. :Ssh:

When I first told friends I'd written a novel, a (very) common question was: 'Does it have lots of steamy sex in it?'

I wasn't sure how to interpret that. Was it a comment on myself - that they expected that kind of thing from me? (Understandable). Was it an expression of their own taste for depravity? (Equally understandable). Or was it merely their implicit understanding that if you want to sell a sh*tload of books and own a Ferrari, you'd better pepper your work with unbridled lust to entertain people on a beach, in the air, or curled up in bed on a Sunday morning?

As it happens, in my first novel there was no need for it, other than a couple of coy references without much explicit detail. And anyway, I have sensitive parents and impressionable teenage daughters, and am therefore a little squeamish about writing full-on raunch for public viewing.

But there's no doubt in my mind that sex sells and is to some extent expected, certainly by the mainstream market. In my teen years, it was just beginning to make an overt appearance in books. Lady Chatterly's Lover had been banned in England until 1960, and it rapidly became a best seller. Ian Fleming's James Bond books then became the next big thing, and paperback copies were passed around with a wink and a leer. There was no need to look for the saucy bits; they fell open at the well-thumbed pages. Perhaps I'm imagining it, but I believe I even encountered copies where the pages were stuck together.:poke: The combination of secrets, derring-do and casual sex certainly financed Fleming's retirement to Montego Bay.

I guess I'm still wrestling with the dilemma of whether to include such stuff, strictly where it belongs. Being abstemious in that respect would suit my 'artist's' persona. But as one who would perhaps not be ashamed to have a best-seller on the strength of it - by giving a prurient public what it so obviously desires - in future work I'm toying with the idea of including some gratuitous heat. I wonder, would that make me a bad person, a shameless hack with the morals of a pimp, or a shrewd author addressing the needs of a grateful public?

[Celia Cyanide]

Always keeping in mind that I'm talking about books where the sex is not the main theme.

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel about it. Like that comment I made about your friends, and their sex lives. Every now and then, you and a close friend might go off and have that conversation. Just like every now and then, you go off and read Fanny Hill. That's fine. If the book is about sex, then a sex scene is moving the plot along, because sex is the plot. But some sex scenes in novels seem to be there just because it's expected. It would be like reading Venus In Furs, and all of a sudden, Severin gets kidnapped by aliens.

When I started this thread, I was concerned about writing a scene like this, because I didn't know if it would fit in, or if I should do it. Having said that, if I intended to write a book in which sex was the main theme, I don't think it would bother me at all.

[AncientEagle]

Like I said before... sex for sex's sake is boring and unnecessary.

You're just talking about in books, right?

[aruna]

You're just talking about in books, right?

Well, I don't know what Celia's talking about but I personally find that statement right on in real life as well as in books! Sex for sex's sake IS boring and unnecessary, IMHO!!! (And now I run from the flying rocks...)

And in real life, as in books, I often find it a substitute for the real thing. In books, for instance, when an author is to lazy to build up a tender, subtle love relationship, she just chucks them into bed and have the couple having fantastic sex; that's supposed to show how much they love each other. That's the kind of thing that leaves me totally frustrated; if you would remove the sex scenes, there would be no indication of how much they care about each other. A good love story should be able to stand alone; if it needs sex as well, fair enough, but if the relationship is beautifully done - as for instance in Pride and Prejudice - the reader is so engrossed and enchanted and too busy wiping away the tears they don't even notice there's no sex!

And how many people in reallife think that just because they've found a great sex partner, they've found true love? And how often does it fade?

[Celia Cyanide]

You're just talking about in books, right?

Well...while I agree with everything Aruna just said...one thing I've learned since starting this thread is that when you're a writer it's not just sex for sex's sake. You can consider it research!

[maestrowork]

Every experience is great FOR a writer. Even just mindless sex (what's wrong with that? ;) ) Writers experience, then write about these experiences. However, is it worthwhile for the readers to experience it? That's the question a writer must ask. Sex for sex's sake is boring to read. However, if there's a point (if the character is such a person and the sex scene shows how pathethic she is), then write it.