"What the..." he said -- OR -- "What the... " He said.

irmo · Apr 1, 2011

I'm have a question concerning how to punctuate and capitalize when a character ends a quotation with an ellipsis.

Consider this example --

"What the... " he exclaimed.

is "he" properly in lower case? Also, was I correct to leave a space between the ellipsis and the end quote?

Also, consider what happens when the ellipsis is not followed by a tag like "he said' but instead by a full sentence. For example --

"Joe, are you paying attention to me?" Sue asked.
"Sure, honey, I ... " The phone rang.

Should "I" have been followed by four dots, indicating an ellipsis and period? Also, should ther be a space between "I" and the first dot, or should they be flush?

dpaterso · Apr 1, 2011

Ellipsis usually indicates thoughtful pause or trailing off. Consider using em-dash instead, e.g.

"What the--?"

"Sure, honey, I--"

-Derek

FennelGiraffe · Apr 1, 2011

The content of the quoted dialog is irrelevant. Sentence, phrase, single word, question, exclamation, trailed-off partial sentence (ellipsis), abruptly interrupted partial sentence (emdash), whatever. When there's a tag, the quoted dialog and the tag are one sentence together. So no capitalization on the tag.

maestrowork · Apr 1, 2011

It doesn't matter if it's ellipse or question mark or exclamation point or an em-dash... you do not capitalize the tag after a dialogue. Like Giraffe said, the punctuation is irrelevant. The fact that it's a tag that follows is the key.

The only time when you capitalize is when it's NOT a dialogue tag but a narrative:

"What the... " He pounded his chest.

absitinvidia · Apr 1, 2011

Is there a way to add this question to the FAQ? It appears about once a week.

maestrowork · Apr 1, 2011

The FAQ would simply say: Pick up a few books and read...

blacbird · Apr 1, 2011

maestrowork said:
The FAQ would simply say: Pick up a few books and read...

No . . . ya think that might work?

Maryn · Apr 2, 2011

blacbird said:
No . . . ya think that might work?

It hasn't so far.

Maryn, sighing

Lapinou · Apr 2, 2011

maestrowork said:
The FAQ would simply say: Pick up a few books and read...

This sort of response on forums really annoys me. What's the point of specialist interest forums like this if it's not to be able to ask questions and get answers from people who are more experienced? Sometimes people need things to be explained in a certain way to really understand it.

It makes sense to be in an FAQ if it's often asked, but it's a bit unfair to say 'go and find out elsewhere because, despite this being a writers' forum, we can't be bothered to provide an answer to a writing question.'

Sorry! Bugbear of mine!

maestrowork · Apr 2, 2011

No, what annoys me is that this kind of questions REALLY can be answered QUICKLY if the person just pick up a book, or two, and check. Takes 1 minute.

This is not the same as, say, "What is POV?" or or "how long is a chapter" or even grammar questions, which could be confusing. There's nothing confusing about punctuating dialogue. Everyone (well, except may be Cormac McCarthy or Charles Frazier) does it the same way. You don't have to check reference books. You just need to read.

Chase · Apr 2, 2011

Lapinou said:
This sort of response on forums really annoys me. What's the point of specialist interest forums like this if it's not to be able to ask questions and get answers from people who are more experienced?

You make an excellent point.

I'm certainly guilty of the tired, jaded response and will try to do better. Even the most basic discussions have often been eye-openers.

It's the same with a gun site and deaf site I belong to. Reminds me of the faculty lounge where we scorned the students, without whom we wouldn't have a job.

Jersey Chick · Apr 2, 2011

A question like this is doesn't require the knowledge of experienced people. It's very easily answered by, as maestro said, picking up almost any book.

Lapinou · Apr 2, 2011

maestrowork said:
No, what annoys me is that this kind of questions REALLY can be answered QUICKLY if the person just pick up a book, or two, and check. Takes 1 minute.

This is not the same as, say, "What is POV?" or or "how long is a chapter" or even grammar questions, which could be confusing. There's nothing confusing about punctuating dialogue. Everyone (well, except may be Cormac McCarthy or Charles Frazier) does it the same way. You don't have to check reference books. You just need to read.

A question like this is doesn't require the knowledge of experienced people. It's very easily answered by, as maestro said, picking up almost any book.

Fair enough. I think it's just that I've been put off forums as a newbie in the past by asking a 'basic' question and being told to google it. Maybe I'm just a bit defensive!

dpaterso · Apr 2, 2011

absitinvidia said:
Is there a way to add this question to the FAQ? It appears about once a week.

Sure thing, done. (Forum mods may modify/improve.)

Everyone should read the FAQs stickied at the top of the forum, of course, but a couple of quick friendly replies to simple questions let new members get on with their writing instead of having to scroll through dozens of threads trying to catch up.

-Derek

IceCreamEmpress · Apr 2, 2011

Lapinou said:
Fair enough. I think it's just that I've been put off forums as a newbie in the past by asking a 'basic' question and being told to google it. Maybe I'm just a bit defensive!

I hope you can see the other side, though--that there are folks who come here (like maestrowork) who are experienced writers making time to help others, and who are answering the same questions over and over as though nobody reads any of the other threads in the subforum? Sometimes the same question comes more than once a day!

In any case, dpaterso's timely modliness should help make everyone happier.

maestrowork · Apr 2, 2011

Lapinou said:
Fair enough. I think it's just that I've been put off forums as a newbie in the past by asking a 'basic' question and being told to google it. Maybe I'm just a bit defensive!

Understood, but if you stick around, you'd see that people are good with answering basic questions. I do, too. I have answered countless questions from basic grammar to "how long is a chapter?"

But writers should read. That's my point. There are many questions that we won't have to ask anymore, simply by paying attention to what we read. That's all.

DeaK · Apr 2, 2011

Also, was I correct to leave a space between the ellipsis and the end quote?

This question of Irmo's was not answered, and I fear, it was even complicated further with the examples (note: I am not meaning to pick on anyone, just questioning the whys of your examples)

IMO, answers to this specific question of Irmo's can be hard to find in books. Could take a long time to find ellipses and em dashes as end sentences in dialogue.

My assumption would be that the answer is the same regardless of the type of punctuation. However, as an aspiring writer, it can be hard to know, and there can be many doubts. I can certainly empathize.

I do not believe there should be a space (or a period) after the ellipses because they function just like any other type of punctuation. Personally, I don't think there should be a space after an em dash either, but it is fairly confusing to me, because usually you do put spaces before and after em dashes.

Not to pick on anyone, but to show that this is actually confusing, Maestro's example:

"What the... " He pounded his chest.

Has a space.

But Derek's examples:

"What the--?"

"Sure, honey, I--"

Did not.

Lapinou · Apr 2, 2011

IceCreamEmpress said:
I hope you can see the other side, though--that there are folks who come here (like maestrowork) who are experienced writers making time to help others, and who are answering the same questions over and over as though nobody reads any of the other threads in the subforum? Sometimes the same question comes more than once a day!

Oh definitely I can! I don't get put off forums easily any more, don't worry, and have certainly been on the other side of it myself, so can understand, of course.

Maestro - I'm sticking around for sure! I am loving this place, and am endlessly grateful for the kind, helpful comments that this board is full of. And it's so welcoming! I guess I've been on too many forums where older members roll their eyes and say 'been there, done that'. But, like I say, I jumped the gun because of my defensiveness and I can see that in this situation what you wrote was sensible and justified. Sorry!

Chase · Apr 2, 2011

No space before the end quote mark--ever that I can recall.

Maryn · Apr 2, 2011

I never insert a blank space between the final character in dialogue--whether it's a comma, ellipses, or a dash--and the quotation mark, either.

That said, if for some reason an author chooses to insert a blank when using ellipses between the last dot and the quotation mark, as long as s/he's consistent no agent or editor is going to mind, really.

Maryn, high-fiving Chase

maestrowork · Apr 2, 2011

No space between the ellipse and end quote.

The only time when I leave a space between a quote and something else is the single quote -- and it's because of my publisher's house style. It's darn difficult to tell them apart if you don't:

" 'Call me Ismael' is a good opening sentence," he said.

DeaK · Apr 2, 2011

maestrowork said:
The only time when I leave a space between a quote and something else is the single quote -- and it's because of my publisher's house style. It's darn difficult to tell them apart if you don't:

" 'Call me Ismael' is a good opening sentence," he said.

Oh – cool! I've wondered about that one too

irmo · Apr 2, 2011

Thanks, all. I think my question is answered; also, in my defense, I have never seen the particular example of the ellipsis asked, so I didn't think I was wasting anyone's time with asking something that is redundant. I did not expect to see it addressed at all in the FAQs. But I've only been here a week so for goodness sake, cut me some slack. Here's why it's so complicated:

The tree is green.
--- becomes ---
"The tree is green," he said.
--- so the period becomes a comma, although ---
Is the tree green?
--- becomes ---
"Is the tree green?" he asked.
--- where the question mark remains, so the options for ---
The tree was...
--- are ---
"The tree was... " he muttered.
--- or ---
"The tree was..," he muttered.
--- ok, we all know that one is wrong, but what about ---
"The tree was...," he muttered.

This question may stem from my legal writing, where we often have to make quotations that clearly indicate the end of a sentence after the omitted portion, with ellipsis plus period, i.e. 4 dots, or just an omitted portion within one sentence, i.e. 3 dots.

I'm probably way off the plantation now but now it's just becoming a question for curiosity's sake.

Thanks all.

absitinvidia · Apr 2, 2011

maestrowork said:
No space between the ellipse and end quote.

The only time when I leave a space between a quote and something else is the single quote -- and it's because of my publisher's house style. It's darn difficult to tell them apart if you don't:

" 'Call me Ismael' is a good opening sentence," he said.

When I typeset a book, I actually do searches for quote/apostrophe combos, so that I can increase the spacing to make them easier to see.

maestrowork · Apr 2, 2011

"The tree was green..." he muttered.

No comma. No space.

Imagine the ... as ! or ? and you can see it makes sense. Ellipses in dialogue mean trailing speech or omission.

"What the..." he said -- OR -- "What the... " He said.

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