Hyphens used in halves of compound words

boron · Mar 30, 2011

Cereal-, yeast- and mushroom-derived fiber.
or
Cereal, yeast and mushroom-derived fiber.
?

PeterL · Mar 30, 2011

Drop the hyphens. Those aren't compound words.

Cereal, yeast, and mushroom derived fiber.
or

Click to expand...

Fiber derived from cereal, yeast, or mushroom.

dawinsor · Mar 30, 2011

It looks to me like the hyphens are needed for clarity. Otherwise the reader might read "cereal" and "yeast" as unconnected from "fiber." My Chicago Manual of Style tells me that a noun and participle combination is often hyphenated when used before a noun.

ETA: You don't know how much I wanted to say noun-participle. Hyphens are an art, not a science, and they're a pain in the butt.

boron · Mar 30, 2011

Yes, I guess they are not called compound words, so maybe....combined words?

Google search across pubmed.gov gives yeast-derived with a hyphen. But should I use a hyphen also when I use only one half of the term as in the first post? So, Dorothy says yes...

Purple Rose · Mar 30, 2011

Definitely yeast-derived with hyphen if it is British English, 100% no question. As to whether you also hyphenate the preceding words, cereal and mushroom, I think it is debatable.

"Yeast derived fibre" does not make sense to me. It makes me want to ask "Yeast derived fibre from what?"

Best book ever written on punctuations is Eats Shoots and Leaves by Lynn Turss. There's a panda on the cover. Put a comma after Eats and it's quite a different!

dawinsor · Mar 30, 2011

boron said:
Google search across pubmed.gov gives yeast-derived with hyphen. But should I use the hyphen also when I use only one half of the term as in the first post? So, Dorothy says yes...

Oh. That one's easy. Yes. If the normal term in that field is yeast-derived (and cereal-derived), then when you use the modifiers in a series like that, you put the hyphen in.

RIFF · Mar 30, 2011

Fibre derived from cereal, yeast and mushrooms.
with hyphens it's a bit much.
Cereal-yeast-and-mushroom-derived fibre. The mind boggles.

Lil · Mar 30, 2011

Hyphens are generally out of fashion these days, but they remain when needed for clarity. There is, for example, a difference between a fast-moving van and a fast moving van.

I think you need all those hyphens in your first example because without them cereal and yeast are parallel with fiber, not mushroom.

I also think it would be a good idea to rewrite the sentence because all those hyphens look just plain ugly.

boron · Mar 30, 2011

Yes, I'm going to use a hyphen-free version.

Purple Rose · Mar 30, 2011

What Lil said. That, for sure.

Maryn · Mar 30, 2011

boron said:
Yes, I'm going to use a hyphen-free version.

Again I believe Peter is incorrect.

I hope you don't mean you intend to use this: Cereal, yeast and mushroom-derived fiber. While I agree the hyphenated version of that is awkward and ugly, simply dropping the hyphens changes what it means to cereal and yeast and fiber derived from mushrooms, which is not what you mean to say.

I'm good with RIFF's Fibre derived from cereal, yeast and mushrooms, though. How you spell fiber will depend on your intended readership.

Maryn, sure on this (and seeing that someone else has the St. Martin's Handbook)

Chase · Mar 30, 2011

Boron,

To have a go at your specific question, your first example of serial hyphens is correct:
Cereal-, yeast- and mushroom-derived fiber.

Granted, it’s not the prettiest phrase. Even worse is another correct version with the final serial comma:
Cereal-, yeast-, and mushroom-derived fiber.

But the second example would be wrong. Also unwieldy is the hyphenated string: "cereal-yeast-and-mushroom-derived fibre."

As Lil and others advised and you decided, a hyphen-free version is probably best, but recasting the sentence is necessary, as you can't just "drop the hyphens." How about something on the of order of: Fiber derived from cereal, yeast, and mushrooms?

"No passion in the world is equal to the passion to alter someone else’s draft." --H. G. Wells

Late edit: Sorry to duplicate Maryn. I was composing and didn't see her excellent post.

scarletpeaches · Mar 30, 2011

I agree with Maryn. The hyphens are correct.

SP, agreeable.

Terie · Mar 30, 2011

PeterL said:
Drop the hyphens. Those aren't compound words.

Wrong. Individually, the hyphenated compounds are:

Cereal-derived fiber, yeast-derived fiber, and mushroom-derived fiber.

Therefore, if the sentence weren't recast, the hyphens are absolutely required.

I realise that the OP has decided to recast the sentence, but I think it's worthwhile to look at what real grammar sources on the subject say.

Gregg Reference Manual said:
When a series of hyphenated adjectives has a common basic element and this element is shown only with the last term, insert a suspending hyphen after each of the incomplete adjectives to indicate a relationship with the last word.

long- and short-term securities
private- and public-sector partnerships
single-, double-, or triple-spaced copy

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary said:
[A hyphen s]uspends the first element of a hyphenated compound or a prefix (hyphenated or not) when the second element or base word is part of a following hyphenated coumpound or derived forms.

a six- or eight-cylindar engine
pre- and postadolescent trauma

Seriously, PeterL, do you ever look anything up before spouting off in this forum? Your perpetually wrong answers aren't helpful to people who need actual facts as opposed to unsubstantiated opinion that is actually wrong.

PeterL · Mar 30, 2011

In that situation "cereal", "yeast", and "mushroom" are used as modifers of "fiber", and as long as they are separated with commas they need no further punctuation.

Terie · Mar 30, 2011

PeterL said:
In that situation "cereal", "yeast", and "mushroom" are adjectives, and as long as they are separated with commas they need no further punctuation.

You are wrong. They are adjectives modifying 'derived'. Hence the compound.

Let's recast the original sentence into bullets to make it clearer:

Cereal-derived fiber
Yeast-derived fiber
Mushroom-derived fiber

That doesn't mean the same thing as:

Cereal
Yeast
Mushroom-derived fiber

If the OP had meant the latter, he wouldn't have put the hyphens in in the first place.

maestrowork · Mar 30, 2011

Yes, you need the hyphens.

maestrowork · Mar 30, 2011

PeterL said:
In that situation "cereal", "yeast", and "mushroom" are adjectives, and as long as they are separated with commas they need no further punctuation.

Those are not adjectives. Those are nouns, but used with derived, they are compound adjectives, so the hyphen is needed: cereal-derived.

Kenn · Mar 30, 2011

Fibre derived from cereal, yeast and mushrooms

I think this is wrong. It implies one fibre derived from a mixture of the three. I think it should be 'fibres' if you go down that route, but that does not specify how many fibres you get from each. I prefer the hyphens. They are clear even if they look a little awkward.

CaroGirl · Mar 30, 2011

boron said:
Cereal-, yeast- and mushroom-derived fiber.

Despite its looking awkward, this is the clearest, most accurate, representation of your meaning. Go with this.

Terie · Mar 30, 2011

Kenn said:
Fibre derived from cereal, yeast and mushrooms

I think this is wrong. It implies one fibre derived from a mixture of the three. I think it should be 'fibres' if you go down that route, but that does not specify how many fibres you get from each.

When talking about fibre as food, it's a collective noun (like 'rice'). Thus you get a sentence such as, 'Bran is a source of dietary fibre.' You wouldn't say, 'Bran is a source of dietary fibres.'

Kenn · Mar 30, 2011

Terie said:
When talking about fibre as food, it's a collective noun (like 'rice'). Thus you get a sentence such as, 'Bran is a source of dietary fibre.' You wouldn't say, 'Bran is a source of dietary fibres.'

So the advertisers would have you believe. I think you'll find there are soluble and insoluble fibre types (in food).

absitinvidia · Mar 30, 2011

PeterL said:
In that situation "cereal", "yeast", and "mushroom" are used as modifers of "fiber", and as long as they are separated with commas they need no further punctuation.

This is wrong. They are modifiers of "derived," not "fiber." The hyphens are essential to the meaning of the sentence.

blacbird · Mar 30, 2011

boron said:
Cereal-, yeast- and mushroom-derived fiber.
or
Cereal, yeast and mushroom-derived fiber.
?

There's a clearer way to say what you mean here, which I would recommend:

Fiber derived from cereal, yeast or mushrooms.

Avoids the hyphenation problem altogether. That having been said, "mushroom-derived" is most definitely a compound word, and requires a hyphen. Leaving the hyphens out of the other prefixes leaves a sentence that doesn't mean the thing you intend:

cereal, yeast, and mushroom derived flavor"

doesn't say the same thing as

cereal-, yeast-, and mushroom-derived flavor"

In summary, I don't much like these artificially constructed compound adjectives, and it's almost always better, and easier, to write in such a way that they are avoided.

boron · Mar 31, 2011

Maryn said:
Again I believe Peter is incorrect.

I hope you don't mean you intend to use this: Cereal, yeast and mushroom-derived fiber. While I agree the hyphenated version of that is awkward and ugly, simply dropping the hyphens changes what it means to cereal and yeast and fiber derived from mushrooms, which is not what you mean to say.

I'm good with RIFF's Fibre derived from cereal, yeast and mushrooms, though. How you spell fiber will depend on your intended readership.

Maryn, sure on this (and seeing that someone else has the St. Martin's Handbook)

I intend to use: Fiber derived from cereals, yeasts or mushrooms. Several types of cereals, yeasts...are included in the context, so all in plural. Except the fiber.

It's for the U.S. readers and I once decided for fiber from fiber, fibre, fibers, fibres options.

I was quite sure my first all-hyphenated sentence was correct; I was mainly worried how it looked.

Hyphens used in halves of compound words

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