In praise of professional editors

Purple Rose · Mar 20, 2011

Much has been said on AW, especially recently, about the value of editors. Now broke but clear-headed and more optimistic, I’d like to share my experiences with three editors – yes, three - in the last couple of months.

Background: I completed a memoir set in Asia which, for various reasons, I feel will appeal more to the American market than anywhere else. I had doubts about the structure of my first two chapters and learned it was possible to get only my first 50 pages edited. When I received the report, I started to have doubts about the whole ms. While writing my query letter and proposal, I struggled with what angle to take. I researched editors and learned there are various areas of specialization – developmental, genre, etc. I decided on a developmental editor with memoir experience for my manuscript and an experienced proposal editor for my query and proposal.

Editor # 1. Started by editing the first 50 pages. Comprehensive report, helpful comments. Resulted in introducing a new chapter and moving an existing towards the back. Revised entire ms and sent full ms for a complete edit. Using some textbook rule, she asked me to move chapter two much further back. Asked for more detailed information and pointed out many “show don’t tell” areas. Overall, good and detailed feedback, at least half of which I have incorporated in my revised ms. Very complimentary about my writing and material. Total cost $2,000.

Editor #2. Unsure if one opinion was enough, I searched for another editor. Again, comprehensive report and helpful feedback. Suggested several options for the opening. Asked for more emotion to be conveyed and also pointed out many “show don’t tell” areas. Overall, good and detailed feedback, and again, at least half of which I have incorporated in my revised ms. Complimentary about my writing and about my material. $3,000.

Editor #3. Very good track record for proposals. Sent her my proposal and query letter. Detailed feedback, very helpful. I sensed the documents were approached with an intelligence that went beyond literary experience. Questions raised in the chapter outline forced me to review some chapters and I ended up adding a few more events. Extremely complimentary about my writing and material (love her!!!) $1,100.

Still a lot of work required on my ms, the status of which has now gone from completed to WIP. Spent the last four days overhauling my proposal and query letter.

So other than having strangers read my work and spending money I could not really afford, what does this mean? For a start, those strangers are professionals, experts in their fields. Thanks to them, I am nearly ready to send out a tight query letter and, where required, a meaty proposal which will hopefully land me an agent this year. In two weeks, my ms should be ready, made more engaging with their suggestions. I have gained invaluable lessons in the process.

Please note that with both developmental editors, I did not use all their comments. Sometimes, I used instinct to leave a thought or event in or remove it instead of filling it out. And what of Chapter Two? It is now Chapter One, despite one editor asking me to move it further back and one saying to leave it as is.

Knowing what I know now, I would still contact the pros, except that I would only use one developmental editor (not necessarily the cheaper one) and a proposal editor. A second editor is an indulgence and great if money is not an issue.

Sorry for this ultra-long post. Hope this helps.

PinkAmy · Mar 20, 2011

I'm glad you shared your experiences. I hate to see part of the publishing community trashed.

Purple Rose · Mar 20, 2011

Me too. Admittedly I felt compelled to "defend" them in a way and was able to be objective because of my experience. As an avid reader who even reads the acknowledgements pages, I used to wonder how much an editor contributes. Now I know - he or she can make anything from a little to all the difference, depending on circumstances.

aruna · Mar 21, 2011

What struck me most are the prices.
Ten years ago I used the editor H*lary Johnson, who helped me enormously with the book and then helped me find an agent. I remember not paying more than about £300 for a full ms back then. I got a full report, extremely helpful.
She is still in business, and from someone I know who used her I know that she's still not that expemsive. Her current fees are:

£3.50 per 1,000 words for the whole typescript, or, for the usual dreaded first three chapters and synopsis, £120 . If the material is emailed, there is a small charge to cover printing costs, £10 for a complete typescript, £5 for a partial.

That's quite a difference to the US fees quoted in the OP! I suppose you could call her a developmental editor. She specialises in mainstream fiction and romantic fiction.

Old Hack · Mar 21, 2011

A good editor can make an enormous difference to a book. The question to ask is, is it worth the high costs involved? If you treat it as a learning experience which will affect your whole writing career then often, you get your money's worth and more; if you hope to end up with a published book at the end of the journey then you're very likely to be disappointed.

Some of AW's members have done very well paying for a professional editor (Aruna comes to mind); others, not so well. There are so many factors to consider.

My advice to anyone else considering paying for an editor: make sure you've clarified your goals in doing so, and that they're realistic; don't expect it to lead to fame and fortune; be prepared to receive some very blunt criticism of your work, and do your best to work with that; agree on the cost before work commences; and make sure you employ someone with the right experience to work on your book.

PinkAmy · Mar 21, 2011

Old Hack said:
If you treat it as a learning experience which will affect your whole writing career then often, you get your money's worth and more;

Yes. If you look at the cost of taking a grad school class, then consider than the editor is basically a private tutor, the price seems worthwhile (for those who have the money, sadly, I do not.)

Skippy75 · Mar 21, 2011

Just a note on cost, in relation to Aruna's comments.

For structural or developmental editing, I tend to base my quote on the amount of hours I think the job will take. I work that out based on a sample edit of 1000 words (which I don't charge for — if I don't get the job, that time is wasted). I have always been a fast reader, and have always been praised (as an inhouse editor) for being able to do a thorough job rather quickly when compared to some of my colleagues, but for most of the large structural jobs I work on it still takes me about an hour to get through 1000 words. Of course, that's including checking facts (yes, even in a novel things need to be credible and real place names, dates etc need checking); checking points of style and keeping a style sheet to ensure character names, place names and spellings are consistent; cross-referencing to other mentions or chapters in the ms to ensure there aren't errors in logic or timing; correcting spelling, grammar, and punctuation; and making comments for the author about my changes or ways to strengthen their writing or avoid common peccadilloes. And that's just a first pass through!

I do at least two passes of the entire manuscript, but usually two and a half (the half is a skim when I quote to enable me to get an idea of plot, climax, conclusion and general structure). So, charging a little over three quid an hour (assuming that that editor is also spending an hour on 1000 words) seems way too cheap to me to be able to make a living.

Here in Australia, I charge anywhere from $35 to $50 an hour, depending on the scale of the edit (with the lower range being proofreading or light line-editing). This, of course, also has to account for some administrative time, e.g. the 1000 word sample edit I do as part of the quote, ongoing communication and liaison with the author (and often a considerable amount of explanation, as well as advice on getting published and submitting too), and the administrative time of keeping a business running, overheads, stationery, tax, filing, and the like.

Given that here in Oz a pedicure (taking a bit under an hour) costs $40, a massage will set you back at least $65 for an hour, and the bare minimum legal wage is $15 an hour, I don't think that's too much to ask for a degree-qualified professional with nearly 15 years' experience. Of course, the challenge is that much has been said and written about how authors should be able to edit their own work, and they should, to a degree. Many authors see editors as unnecessary critics. The old chestnut is that editors are failed writers, which may be true in some cases, but, as TS Elliot said "so are most writers".

I maintain it is near impossible for all but the most remarkable of authors to edit their own work objectively, or to the level a professional, trained and experienced editor can. That "theory" also applies to just about any other trade. You can bake your own bread. You can change your own brake pads if you know how to read a manual. You can colour you own hair. But do you? It all depends on your peception of what those services are worth compared to the time and expense of teaching yourself how to do them (or potentially doing them and coming up with an inferior version). Editing is no different, and certainly no more expensive (for the time it takes), than any other professional service IMO.

Purple Rose · Mar 21, 2011

PinkAmy said:
If you look at the cost of taking a grad school class, then consider than the editor is basically a private tutor, the price seems worthwhile (for those who have the money, sadly, I do not.)

Spot on Pink Amy! I am happy with what I gained from private tuition. On top of that, I got to produce a better manuscript. I had to use money meant for other things but still it was money well spent indeed!

Chris P · Mar 21, 2011

[Bias disclaimer: I conduct copy editing for a contract company that also does book critiques, although I now pass on fiction jobs]

The prices are not trivial. The client should consider this as seriously as any purchase of that magnitude; major appliances, furniture, stock investments, etc. On any edit I do, I explain any errors the writer makes repeatedly, and if something doesn't make sense I explain how it might be misunderstood and suggest alternate wording in a comment. If I can be instructive rather than just make the corrections I feel I've helped the writer improve.

Purple Rose · Mar 21, 2011

Skippy75 said:
I maintain it is near impossible for all but the most remarkable of authors to edit their own work objectively, or to the level a professional, trained and experienced editor can

Totally agree especially when writing memoir. It's too easy to get caught up in emotions or to try and avoid too much emotion and ending up with a too soppy or too bland ms. My editors spotted gaping holes and suggested they be filled. Little things like that. Memoir writers tend to be too close to their projects, I think, to be objective.

@Aruna and Skippy, I researched editors in both countries and while they had excellent credentials and were way cheaper, I felt that it was essential to work with an American editor as my target audience is primarily American. As it turns out, the reports I received asked me to explain certain things, expand on certain scenes and remove certain sections because that's what an American would or would not want to know. Only an American editor could point that out. Tres helpful!!

aruna · Mar 21, 2011

Oh, I agree that a good professional is always worth the money; trouble is, I could never ever afford anything going into the thousands, and so Hilary was fine for me. I can only assume that her work (she now uses trusted free-lance editors who once worked in publishing houses) is in less detail than the more expensive ones, but still enormously helpful.

And yes, the comparison with a private tutor is most apt. I once started an MA in Creative Writing, and the class workshopped one of my novels -- at least, the opening chapters of it, not the whole thing. Our tutor was BRILLIANT. I mean, just fantastic. I know he did private editing as well, which would have been much better than workshopping in-class. But I couldn't afford it.

Purple Rose · Mar 21, 2011

Loved your first novel so you obviously did well with both your own writing and Hilary. I will start on your second one when I'm done sending out queries by middle of next week. Can't wait to start on it, such an interesting premise. I know I won't be disappointed. can't believe I bought the book some time ago and forgot about it. Hrrrrmmmph!

PinkAmy · Mar 21, 2011

Purple Rose said:
Totally agree especially when writing memoir. It's too easy to get caught up in emotions or to try and avoid too much emotion and ending up with a too soppy or too bland ms.

Ditto. Additionally with me I've done so many rewrites I can't even tell which end is up.

Skippy75 · Mar 21, 2011

Editing is definitely a luxury only some can afford, and I think that's where a lot of the opposition to it comes in from some authors. They kind of see it as a cheats game. Either that, or they've had a bad experience (and, unfortunately, there are some charlatans out there who will do a bad job, swindle authors out of their money,make grandiose promises they can't keep or crush a writer's confidence).

It's a shame, because I can see so much potential in some manuscripts with a little more dedication to editorial and developmental work. As I know many authors can't afford a full, substantive copyedit with changes made in track changes in Word, I offer a manuscript appraisal service which provides advice and where I mark up only real clangers, repeated errors or general comments on ideas to correct major problems on a PDF copy (so the authors would have to take in changes themselves) for a few hundred dollars. But I have found that I am really prone to putting too much effort into these appraisals — it's just so hard to see errors and not correct them! I find it hard to hold back, but not doing so blows my appraisal time out of the water. I am so used to doing large substantive edits, that I really struggle to do a "lite" version. That's a great thing for my authors, but it means that I often end up doing a lot more work than its worth for me. So I try to keep them to the number of appraisals I do to minimum, or heaven knows how I'd pay the mortgage or have time to live!

A solid appraisal, though, particularly in conjunction with using friends or betas, might also be really helpful to some writers. Other writers find they learn the craft in their own good time, using writing advice books and classes. Overall, I think the clever writer doesn't rule anything out, but also works within their means to produce the best manuscript possible before submitting or self-publishing.

Susan Coffin · Mar 22, 2011

Purple Rose, my eyes fell out when I saw the amount of money you used on professional editors (not literally fell out

). I don't know, for me spending any money on editors I pay for out of pocket would not work for me. I just want to know how to edit myself. When I do get an agent and changes are needed, I want to be able to make those changes. However, what works for me does not work for everyone else.

My friend wrote a non-fiction book years ago and worked on and off for about five years with a developmental editor. She said there were a lot of pluses and minuses and she learned a lot, but she probably would not work with one again.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Purple Rose · Mar 22, 2011

Susan Littlefield said:
Purple Rose, my eyes fell out when I saw the amount of money you used on professional editors (not literally fell out

Ha ha, so did mine and my heart, wallet, fridge contents and the paintings on the wall. But as I mentioned on most of my posts - my work is memoir, I am an Asian writing for an American market and I wanted to get it right.

Yes there were minuses but due to the pluses, I would still do it again if the clock were turned back. Just one editor, though, for the ms.

Believe me, I am going to be dirt poor for a while but it doesn't matter. I am happy. More than paying for an edit, I have paid for some solid private tuition in writing

. I made all the changes myself.

Oh and just to clarify - I got advice not edits. Precious and very helpful words and comments but still, they were just suggestions. The edits are still mine.

Skippy75 · Mar 22, 2011

Purple Rose, your experience is definitely atypical, in using three different editors (and spending a lot of cashola!), but I'm so glad that it worked out for you and that you learned a lot from the process and found it useful. Having said that, yeah, maybe just one next time.

I would say to any author who is looking to work with a professional editor, either as a learning tool or to polish a manuscript for submission, to ensure that the editor will do a free sample of at least 500 words for them when they provide a quote for services. Also seek an editor whose quote is fixed, e.g. price does not vary if the actual hours vary (unless, of course, in negotiation with the author if, say, the author adds an extra 20,000 word chapter or rewrites the middle section after the edit has taken place and wants it checked again, or something!).

I've met a lot of editors who are very reluctant to provide a free sample edit, on the basis of "why work for free if I don't win the job", but I've found the sample edit is the best way to demonstrate your editing style to the client, and the only way for the client to see exactly how well you'll work together as a team, and just how much work you think their manuscript might need. I've had some timewasters (I used to advertise a free sample edit on the first chapter — until I had some sneaky authors send me 100 page "first" chapters. Lol! Seriously!), but for the most part the free sample edit is a safeguard for me (enabling me to quote more efficiently) and for my clients, as if some of them get the sample and totally freak out at the amount of changes or comments, then they're probably not mentally ready for the long and laborious process anyway or for the difficult task of accepting constructive criticism. How obliging an editor is in providing a sample is, I think, a good indicator of their approach to helping authors and whether they do what they do because they love and enjoy it or whether it is all about the moolah.

thothguard51 · Mar 22, 2011

Skippy,

I like your style and the fact that you use/keep a style sheet. A lot of freelance editors I have seen on line don't even know what one is.

Too bad you're not in the U.S... Or, maybe that is a blessing for you... lol.

Deleted member 42 · Mar 22, 2011

thothguard51 said:
Skippy,

I like your style and the fact that you use/keep a style sheet. A lot of freelance editors I have seen on line don't even know what one is.

This is a such basic tool for editing of every sort, that it's a dead giveaway if they don't.

There's a super post on AW from HapiSofi about what to look for in an editor; I'll have to find my bookmark for it and make it an FAQ.

thothguard51 · Mar 22, 2011

Good point Medi.

I learned about the style sheet issue and other things to look for from the HapiSofi post. It's one of the best I have read on what to look for in an editor and I have it marked I believe. I will have to search for it again and see if I can provide the link.

thothguard51 · Mar 22, 2011

Thinking more on this style sheet issue, is there a site where a non-editor could down load style sheet or see one to understand all it entails? Or is that a editors thingy and if non-editors got a hold of them they would have to kill us and feed us to the zombie writers...

Deleted member 42 · Mar 22, 2011

thothguard51 said:
Thinking more on this style sheet issue, is there a site where a non-editor could down load style sheet or see one to understand all it entails? Or is that a editors thingy and if non-editors got a hold of them they would have to kill us and feed us to the zombie writers...

Make your own!

There are the Really Big Style Sheets like Chicago Manual of Style--which often will say these are the three standard ways to do this--pick one--and MLA (Modern Language Association) and APA (American Psychological Association).

Browse a couple at your library. Find what works for you. There are things that one simply picks and adheres to . . . like the serial comma yay or nay. These are the equivalent of religious issues like whether one stands at a rail or sits at a pew to take communion; there are preferences more than definitive rights or wrongs.

Other things: whether em-dashes have a leading and a trailing space — like this one (APA style) or are closed—like this one (MLA style).

Whether you spell out time, how you spell it out, or use numbers. Whether AM and PM are upper or lower case.

It's also a good idea to have, as an author, a list of character's names correctly spelled, and any idioms or non-English phrases or complicated place names that might puzzle an editor.

thothguard51 · Mar 22, 2011

I am pretty good with creating my own forms in MS Office excel, like time line sheets, character logs, and even maps. Thanks for the advice on the Chicago style sheet as it might give me an idea of what to include.

You're a dream come true...

Skippy75 · Mar 23, 2011

I'd be lost without a style sheet, Thothguard. Totally! It's the only way to ensure consistency across a manuscript, unless you've got a photographic memory.

I make up my own Style Sheet and customise it for each job. It incorporates standard elements and usage for the most commonly used style for the language in which the author is considering publishing, e.g:

Manuscript to be submitted in the US or for US market — I'll generally follow Chicago MoS and Merriam-Webster dictionary for general word usage, unless otherwise instructed. I've also used AP (but I don't like it!).

Manuscript to be submitted in the UK: Oxford all the way, style guide & dictionary, plus Pam Peter's Cambridge Guide to English Usage for discrepancies or some odd word choices. Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors is useful too.

Manuscript to be submitted in Aus — Wiley (Snooks & Co) 6th Edition and the Macquarie Dictionary. Plus Pam Peter's Cambridge Guide to English Usage if I can't find it in Wiley or to assess popular usage in some instances. (Popular usage and "editor usage" isn't always the same).

Having said that, if an author knows which publisher they want to submit to, I'll check out their submissions guideline for any style points too. So, basically, the bigger issues, e.g. single or double quotation marks, spaced or unspaced ems, punctuation in or out of quotes will all be covered by the style guide I'll choose to follow (or submission guidelines of publishers) and I put that in the style sheet to remind me.

I then also have a section for keeping track of words that appear in the ms that might be tricky, hyphenated or need to be set solid or sneaky ones like oestrus and oestrous that change depending on context. I add place names and any foreign language words or phrases I need to keep track of or look up.

Another section lists all characters names and spellings (as well as made up place names and cities, countries etc in spec fic) so I can easily check if I come across inconsistencies.

If a manuscript is particularly epic, I might even keep a bit of a timeline going on in the style sheet.

Basically, it is a pretty fluid document that changes depending on the manuscript I'm assessing, but I'd be constantly rechecking the same thing in the style manual or dictionary over and over again, or doing a lot of "finds" in word to double check without it.

So a great tip, Thoth! Make sure your editor keeps a style sheet. Also, if they give you a copy at the end then you can use it for any subsequent novels in a series.

thothguard51 · Mar 23, 2011

Skippy,

Thank you so much for the advice. It appears I have been keeping style sheets all along without even knowing what I was doing. I visited the Chicago Style website last night and got some idea of what you guys are talking about. Very interesting...

Kudo's to you and editors everywhere...

In praise of professional editors

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Deleted member 42

A Gentleman of a refined age...

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Deleted member 42

A Gentleman of a refined age...

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A Gentleman of a refined age...