Sally sat as Jill combed her hair

tko · Mar 19, 2011

Whose hair is being combed?

Say Sally is a little girl, her POV, and her mom, Jill is combing her hair. I'm having problems coming up w/a clear sentence for this simple activity.

Sally sat as Jill combed her hair.

Whose hair? Maybe Jill was combing her own hair.

Sally sat as Jill combed Sally's hair.

Clear, but stupid sounding.

Jill combed Sally's hair?

Not really Sally's POV any longer.

Sally felt Jill's comb move through her hair.

Well, that was struggle. But still ugly. And doesn't really say what I wanted.

About the only way you can solve this is by context.

Sally sat as Jill combed her hair. Her mom was going out and wanted to look nice.

Sally sat as Jill combed her hair. Sally loved the feel of the brush.

This is bugging me.

Prawn · Mar 19, 2011

You are right, the only way to solve this is with context. How about

Sally sat still has her mother combed her hair for her.

mscelina · Mar 20, 2011

Put 'Jill combed her hair' in a descriptive phrase referring to Sally.

While Jill combed her hair, Sally sat *then you add the rest of the sentence, describing either the scene, the protag's feelings about having her hair combed, or something else within the context of the scene.*

While Jill combed her hair, Sally sat still and hoped that for once her hair would cooperate.

bonitakale · Mar 20, 2011

Agree with mscelina. Add something.

"Hold still!" said Jill. How can I comb your hair if you jerk your head all over?"
Sally twisted around to look at her mother, and the comb found another knot. "Owww!"

PVish · Mar 20, 2011

The problem is the simultaneous action. Something happens as something else happens, so the reader is jerked in two different directions.

I agree with the "add something" advice above. Bonita's addition of dialogue makes clear what is happening to whom. The reader can easily picture the action.

kborsden · Mar 20, 2011

Sally sat quietly, so Jill could brush her daughter's hair.

I'm guessing here that the rest of the written work makes clear that Sally and Jill are related?

Lillie · Mar 20, 2011

Sally sat so her hair could be combed by Jill.

Bufty · Mar 20, 2011

If you have a clear idea of what you are trying to get across to the reader the problem will disappear.

maestrowork · Mar 20, 2011

Context is key here. That sentence probably should not stand alone. I also don't like the "as" in this construct. I'd prefer a simpler and clearer one:

Sally sat while Jill combed her hair.

or reverse the sentence to make the context even clear:

While Sally sat, Jill combed her hair.

I disagree with this in your OP:

Jill combed Sally's hair?

Not really Sally's POV any longer.

How is it not Sally's POV? As long as Sally KNOWS Jill is doing it, it's still in Sally's POV.

Sally felt Jill's comb move through her hair.

Well, that was struggle. But still ugly. And doesn't really say what I wanted.

You're confused that POV means you have to filter everything. There's absolutely no reason to do that "felt" stuff. It's stupid and unnecessary.

Blue236 · Mar 20, 2011

How old is Sally? The reason I ask is because 8 year olds or younger simply do not sit still for hair brushing.

Sally ran from Jill's hairbrush.
or
Jill chased Sally with the hairbrush.

Might be more apt for a younger Sally.

Jill brushed Sally's hair.

blacbird · Mar 20, 2011

The sentence originally questioned is obviously ambiguous. There must be a hundred better ways of clarifying what is actually meant.

maestrowork · Mar 21, 2011

Sally sat, and Jill started to brush the girl's hair.

PinkAmy · Mar 21, 2011

"Come here, Sally, your hair is a mess," Jill said before attacking the tangles on her daughter's matted hair.

tko · Mar 21, 2011

here's the problem

It's POV of the little girl Sally. You're written it omniscient point of view, I think. I'd like it through the viewpoint of Sally, that's what makes it hard.

Whose is "her?" Her mom's or Sally's? I think you can only make this clear in context.

The english language only has so many ways to refer to yourself.

kborsden said:
Sally sat quietly, so Jill could brush her daughter's hair.

?

tko · Mar 21, 2011

interesting POV about POV

Interesting comment about POV. This is something I'm struggling with. What you say is technically true. How could it not be her point of view?

However, it seems like there are different strengths of point of view, for lack of a better word.

You can be very intimate, very inside the characters head. The spider's leg tickled the fine hairs on the back of her arm. Must be POV, no other interpretation possible, because no one else can feel that except the character. Strong POV, the reader knows exactly whose head you're in.

The spider crawled up her arm. Could be anyone's POV who is standing in the same room. Weak POV, it doesn't draw the reader in, and it's not unambiguous from the character's viewpoint.

For this scene I need a strong POV.

maestrowork said:
How is it not Sally's POV? As long as Sally KNOWS Jill is doing it, it's still in Sally's POV.

tko · Mar 21, 2011

not Sally's POV

That's the rub. It should be strongly from Sally's point of view. As Maestro pointed out, while the below sentence could possible be interpreted as Sally's POV, it's not very strong in that regards.

PinkAmy said:
"Come here, Sally, your hair is a mess," Jill said before attacking the tangles on her daughter's matted hair.

kborsden · Mar 21, 2011

Sally sat as still as she could as/while Jill's brush ran through her hair.

Blue236 · Mar 21, 2011

I am kind of wondering if you couldn't just ditch the sentence altogether. Does the reader really need to know that Sally's hair is getting brushed? Is it relevant to the story or is it just an extra little piece of information thrown in just because?

Bing Z · Mar 21, 2011

Still pouting, Sally sat down as her mother grabbed a comb. The (evil) comb brushed through her hair and little Sally bit her lower lip. I'll shave my head when I grow up.

blacbird · Mar 21, 2011

Blue236 said:
I am kind of wondering if you couldn't just ditch the sentence altogether. Does the reader really need to know that Sally's hair is getting brushed? Is it relevant to the story or is it just an extra little piece of information thrown in just because?

That was my instant thought, too. But, lacking context, it's hard to say. It does, however, strike me as a pretty meaningless detail. What is significant, for the story, about Sally's hair getting brushed?

kborsden · Mar 22, 2011

blacbird said:
That was my instant thought, too. But, lacking context, it's hard to say. It does, however, strike me as a pretty meaningless detail. What is significant, for the story, about Sally's hair getting brushed?

Mutated, man-sized, radioactive head lice?

PinkAmy · Mar 22, 2011

One question, if this is written from a child's point of view, why is she referring to her mother by first name instead of Mom?

Nick Blaze · Mar 22, 2011

PinkAmy said:
One question, if this is written from a child's point of view, why is she referring to her mother by first name instead of Mom?

I highly agree with this. Even though it does not address the problem (I say either get rid of the line or go with maestro's advice) it's still a good question.

Nick Blaze · Mar 22, 2011

Oops, double post.

maestrowork · Mar 22, 2011

Even if it's "her mother" or "Mom" it still has the same ambiguity issue without context:

Sally sat while her mother brushed her hair.

This is really not a POV issue, but a context issue. To make the sentence stronger and clearer, it should have a stronger context, or be clear about whose hair Jill is brushing (in my example... "Jill brushed the girl's hair.") I also like "Sally sat as still as she could while her mother brushed her hair." In that case, the context is clear... we can infer that Jill is brushing Sally's hair.

Sally sat as Jill combed her hair

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