Creative Writing Programs

[WerenCole]

Hi everybody. It has been quite some time since I last posted on anything relevant, but that does not mean that I have not been observing with regularity. I have a question to bounce of the members of our esteem panel: What do you think of university creative writing programs and their ability to shape a writer in either a positive or negative regard?

After many years of toiling in the workforce, along with many manuscripts started and finished (including my novel, if some of you remember my excitement from a few years ago on the old boards when I finally nailed the thing down) I have decided to go back to school to get my under graduate degree once and for all. My doubts about entering the creative writing program stem from my ideas of how the script for teaching creative writing in this country may try to force me to conform to what people think a writer should be. I do understand that to deviate from the so called proper forms of writing you should have mastered those forms, though I am not sure if I would rather go to the writing program and see what it can do for me or go more of the route of a literature or history major and fill my head with knowledge that I can later draw on for my writing.

Maybe I am just being silly and my misgivings are misguided, but I would like to hear the verdict of this court for my own consciousness.

Thanks
Weren

[katiemac]

I know a few people enrolled in creative writing courses at my university, and they do enjoy it. The course is mainly structured in a workshop fashion, which I assume most courses are. The 100-level (beginner) and advanced course descriptions for my university are as follows:

INTRODUCTION TO CREATIVE WRITING. The course is designed to give students an occasion for writing fiction or poetry, some practical guidance, and a sympathetic critical audience on whom to try out their work. A series of exercises and workshop discussions will explore the tactical problems writers encounter. The course will also address the meaning of the "creative process" and the nature of literature.

ADVANCED FICTION WORKSHOP. In an environment both rigorous and supportive, students will hone their skills as fiction writers and critics. The emphasis will be on revision, one or two stories worked through numerous drafts during the semester.

I opted out of these classes for a few reasons. One, I'm not interested in showing my writing to others, for read or workshop, until I'm completely finished.

Two, writing prompts and exercises do not appeal to me. I took creative writing courses in high school and didn't enjoy the stories we were required to write. They felt forced. I'd rather spend the little writing time I do have on something I feel is more worthwhile, like the current novel.

Three, I'm not a big fan of poetry but I like writing it even less. Since "creative writing" also encompasses poetry, in my experience part of the curriculum is based on all forms of writing poetry -- usually a bigger portion of the semester than I would like. There are also specific courses designed for writing poetry, so I would assume it is less involved in these fiction classes.

With regards to conformity, I'm not sure that's a problem. Most, if not all, of the English professors I've crossed in my lifetime tend to be of a fairly liberal mind. It's only been in technical writing or journalism courses where it's necessary to "conform" to the writing standards -- grammar, structure, etc.

I would hope that someone teaching you has an open mind, especially since writing is so relative.

Edited to add: I love my major(s) -- not English -- and find them helpful in terms of useful knowledge to create stories. History as well as sociology, anthropology and psychology could give you some real insight into the ways a human being really operates.

[Greer]

I can only speak from my own experience, but I don't think that majoring in creative writing, particularly at the undergraduate level, is necessary or even recommended. You can ALWAYS take creative writing courses as an elective, and majoring in another field -- whether it is in the humanities or in the sciences -- will give you a unique angle from which to approach your fiction, should you choose to do so. I majored in history and cultural theory -- I have found this base of knowledge has served me immensely in my writing since then. Other writers, like David Foster Wallace or Richard Powers, were math or science majors who applied their interests in those fields to their novels, to wonderful result.

In terms of the helpfulness of workshops, as many people have stated, they aren't going to teach you how to become the next James Joyce or Stephen King. What they will do is force you to write for a deadline, and force you to share your work with a group of (mostly) like-minded peers. You will receive a lot of feedback, much of which will be utterly useless, but which may contain a few nuggets that will help your revision. What will help, however, is the active critiquing you will be doing of other work -- seeing the same mistakes in other writers' stories, and explicating them, will (hopefully) help you see those mistakes in your work. Finally, there is something to be said of the communal aspect of it -- the mutual encouragement and the knowledge that you're not the only one with this foolish idea of being a writer.

Now, MFA programs are a different story, and if anybody is interested in hearing my experience with those I'd be happy to elaborate.

[inanna]

I majored in English in college and took the creative writing course they offered. Given that these classes usually encompass poetry and playwriting aswell as fiction, time constraints often make it a pretty superficial overview. Unless your instructor was some kind of tyrant, I doubt you will find it terribly constraining--just not very in-depth.

I went on to take advanced fiction classes when I was admitted into their writer-in-residence program. This was run in an MFA-style workshop format. At that level (but admittedly, this applies more to a post-graduate program) you may encounter a little more pressure to conform to a certain type or style of writing. If the group is small, it could be peer pressure; if the instructor is someone you admire, it could be more of a self-imposed thing. But I'm just speaking for myself here. I'm sure it varies widely.

Some of the best instruction I've received has been through the novel writing classess I've taken at my local community college. Because the rules of good writing apply to everyone, all genres were embraced, and I learned layer upon layer of craft in those courses.

I would inquire about the instructor at your school, because as long as he/she is open minded, I imagine it will go well. Good luck!

[Jamesaritchie]

Writing programs are like anything else in that some are extremely valuable, and some are worthless. An MFA can open doors for you, especially in the literary field, and with publishers, should you want to work in that area.

But no two colleges have creating writing programs that are exactly alike. They have different instructors, different goals, different requirements, and you name it. No two MFA programs are exactly alike, either. Some are lousy, some good, and some wonderful.

No program, whatever its makeup, can teach talent, but the good programs can develop talent much faster than the average writer can do so alone, and they degree can and does open doors.

Writers come from all walks of life, but whatever the walk of life, you can bet the writers you've heard of have either taking university courses, of have managed to learn the same things on their own.

Run down the list of the 100 bestselling writers in the country and take a look at the education levels, and what they have degrees in. It's no coincidence that English and journalism degrees are extremely common.

[WerenCole]

Thanks for the responses so far. You have expressly voiced my misgivings about the actual value of an emphasis on creative writing. It is a direction I am being pushed in, though I feel more of the line to be an literature major with a minor in history, in my mind this is the best way to round out my knowledge for what I hope to create as a writer. I often view creative writing programs (not just classes, but entire programs) to be instructive, though a touch fluffy. I am not much of a poet, I like my poetry and maybe if given a chance I will one day publish some type of chapbook, and from what I understand most creative writing programs deal at length with poetry and revising poetry. Furthermore I am a type of literature fanatic and would more prefer to chose that road. The only reason I am asking this particular question is because, though I am more or less certain of my decision, outside forces are pursuing me to enter this university with a creative writing emphasis and I was wondering what peoples experiences and thoughts were considering the subject. If any one else has some thoughts, please share.

Thanks

Weren

[Fishmonkey]

Just to offer an experience from the opposite end... I've never took a single creative writing or English class. Not much time for or interest in workshops either. Reading a lot seems to be more helpful, at least to me, than specific courses teaching you how to write. That is not to suggest that creative writing programs should be avoided.

I think that if that's what you want to do then do it; but don't feel that you MUST take creative writing in order to write.

[Richard White]

All I can offer is my current experience, (since I'm a tech writer by trade, my company is paying for me to get a BA in English).

I'm taking two classes this semester:

English Composition I: Not enjoying this class. Instructor seems like a nice enough person, but I hate the readings we're basing our writing on. Also, I hate being told "in the first half, do this, and be sure to use proper transitional sentences at the end of your paragraphs, and so on." However, it's one of the only two manditory classes in the program, so I'll survive.

Writing for TV and Radio: My instructor is a 26 year veteran of TV and Radio, has won two Emmys and currently works for Maryland Public Television doing documentaries as well as some on-air work. He constantly adds to the class discussions by talking about what he's seen and done in the industry lately. Needless to say, I can't wait to get to class on Monday nights.

There's something to be learned from any class you take (even if it's "don't do it this way"). However, if you get a class with someone who's got cred, it makes the class a lot more educational beyond the books.

[Old Hack]

I am in the UK, where things might be different.

I took an MA in creative writing, which I finished a couple of years ago.
I thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't learn much which I wouldn't have learned eventually by writing on my own BUT I learned it much more quickly than I would have done otherwise. So it was a way to accellerate myself through some of the apprenticeship.

Over the last five-ten years, MA courses in the UK have proliferated. There are so many MA courses out there now though that you do need to take care. Find out about who will be teaching you: are they suitably qualified and experienced in the genre which they teach? do you like their work? have they worked widely in the publishing industry, rather than just in an academic field?

My agent told me recently that when writers with MAs first started appearing she, and her editor- and agent-friends, were impressed. It meant something then. Now there are so many MA writing courses, and so many people taking them, the qualification is becoming less special. There is a core of a few Universities running MAs which do still have some clout: but most of them are not regarded with much respect.
So: I'd encourage everyone who wants to take an MA in writing to do so. It's a fabulous course and there are enough different courses out there for everyone to be able to find just the right course, and tutor, for them. It'll speed you along your journey, and it will improve your work. But don't expect it to help you in the scramble for publication unless you take your MA at one of the more prestigious Universities.

[debraji]

As an undergrad (many years ago) I majored in history and tried to schedule one creative writing course every semester. That allowed me to devote time to writing during college that I might not have managed otherwise. I found a good writing teacher and took whatever courses she offered. Finding a good teacher is key.

Aside from my history courses, I took classes in mythology, philosophy, literature, biology, economics, archaeology, and theater. I still think it was a wonderful education for a writer.

I understand some creative writing programs discourage genre writing--so if you want to write outside of the mainstream box, make sure you don't sign up for too restrictive a course. Try to talk to the instructors in advance.

[zornhau]

I met one graduate of a postgrad creative writing course. They were - well - creative (very), but had no control over the technical aspects of their writing; merry headhopping, violations of POV, mixed metaphors etc etc, and all without realising they were doing it.

I'm not saying these are rules you should never break, but I would have expected a formal course to introduce you to them. Seems like they spent a year rummaging in their pysche and indulging in collective backslapping.

So, before considering a course, I'd want to know whether they were going to cover the technical basics - creativity you either have or have not.

[The Numinous One]

Ultimately the decision is yours, but if I had the time and resources to go back to grad school, I'd skip the MFA programs and get an MA in Comparative Literature or perhaps an individualized degree, concentrating in history, religion and literature. Since I'm already in a private writing workshop, I think a humanities degree would be a good compliment to what I'm already accomplishing outside of school. However, I'd probably apply to Clarion or Odyssey for one of my summers in between the two-three years of the grad program. Assuming I could get in, I'd then register with my school to get credit for the writing program so it could be applied toward my degree. That's just another option you might want to consider.

[Greer]

I am in the UK, where things might be different.

I took an MA in creative writing, which I finished a couple of years ago.
I thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't learn much which I wouldn't have learned eventually by writing on my own BUT I learned it much more quickly than I would have done otherwise. So it was a way to accellerate myself through some of the apprenticeship.

Over the last five-ten years, MA courses in the UK have proliferated. There are so many MA courses out there now though that you do need to take care. Find out about who will be teaching you: are they suitably qualified and experienced in the genre which they teach? do you like their work? have they worked widely in the publishing industry, rather than just in an academic field?

My agent told me recently that when writers with MAs first started appearing she, and her editor- and agent-friends, were impressed. It meant something then. Now there are so many MA writing courses, and so many people taking them, the qualification is becoming less special. There is a core of a few Universities running MAs which do still have some clout: but most of them are not regarded with much respect.
So: I'd encourage everyone who wants to take an MA in writing to do so. It's a fabulous course and there are enough different courses out there for everyone to be able to find just the right course, and tutor, for them. It'll speed you along your journey, and it will improve your work. But don't expect it to help you in the scramble for publication unless you take your MA at one of the more prestigious Universities.

This is applicable in the US as well. There are maybe twenty MFA programs consistently producing good writers and respected by agents and publishers -- out of how many? A couple hundred, it seems like. For some of the lesser schools, the MFA programs are cash cows for people who want the degree, but I guarantee that listing an MFA from SE South Dakota St. College isn't going to turn any heads. One thing to bear in mind is that most good MFA programs fund their grad students -- meaning you don't have to pay to go. (This is a common argument from those who don't like MFA programs -- that they are for elitist wealthy people who can afford it. Well, no, not really with most of the good programs.) You may have to work as a TA or undergrad instructor, but it is better than mortgaging your future for a non-marketable degree.

[Jamesaritchie]

Two things. If you hunt around, some of the new programs do teach genre writing, do teach commercial writing, and do teach teh business side of publishing. They also have real, selling, genre writers in residence.

But one big point. It's often said that writers can succeed on their own, and it's true, some can. It's said a writer doesn't need such things as college and writing programs. It's true, some do not.

But when you look at the numbers, it seems to me most writers do not succeed on their own. Most writers fail on their own. Just about 91% of all who try writing will never be paid a dime for anything they write, no matter how long and hard they try. And only about 1% will earn anything better than minimum wage.

You can certainly point to this writer or that writer or the other writer and say he did just fine without anything college has to offer. But you'll be point at the exceptions, and it's always a huge risk to count yourself as an exception until after you prove you are one.

Now, the number for those who go through creative writing programs, or who major in English Lit., or who major in journalism, aren't spectacular, either, but they're a heck of a lot better than the numbers for those who do not. A heck of a lot better.

Education never, ever hurts, and lack of education never, ever helps. You do have to shop around and find the program that's right for you because they are not all alike, and sometimes not anything at all alike. And I do think an English Lit major, or a journalism major, can be just as good as a creative writing major, particularly if you take the occasional writing course now and again.

But I do think you greatly up your odds of becoming a successful writer if you major in something that puts you inside the world of literature and writing.

Having said this, while I think everyone should have a college degree, that degree should really be in the thing you most love to do, whether it's writing, accounting, or tennis.

[dragonjax]

It depends on what you're looking for, I suppose. Having taken five creative writing workshops at the undergraduate level, as well as launching my own after I graduated, I can honestly say that I learned much more actually submitting to agents and by joining writing workshops geared toward publication, not creativity. So I, personally, wouldn't recommend it if you're looking for help in getting published.

Separately, I think there's a world of difference between being a literature major and being a creative writing major. Reading is essential if you want to write seriously.

But what I sincerely doubt you'll learn at a college or university program is HOW to get published. How to study the markets, analyze trends, craft a winning query letter, sweat through a brief and detailed synopsis, whether chapter outlines are necessary, surviving rejection, starting another project. All that neat stuff that suddenly, and forever, turns the art of writing into the business of writing.

[Jamesaritchie]

It depends on what you're looking for, I suppose. Having taken five creative writing workshops at the undergraduate level, as well as launching my own after I graduated, I can honestly say that I learned much more actually submitting to agents and by joining writing workshops geared toward publication, not creativity. So I, personally, wouldn't recommend it if you're looking for help in getting published.

I would, on the basis of the numbers alone. And the better writing programs around now are geared toward publication.

Now, I majored in English Lit and in journalism, and only took writing courses on the side, but even though I'd already had three short stories and one novel published, and had an agent, before I started college, I learned more about actual writing in six months at college than I'd learned in the five years before college.

A big part of this learning came from the journalism courses. . .any course that makes you write every darn day is going to teach you something, but the English Lit courses also involved both intensive writing and intensive reading. So, of course, did the writing courses.

Conversely, I'm not real big on workshops that supposedly teach writing. Ones that teach publication, teach the business side of writing, yes, but not ones that try to teach writing. Most are far too short to do any real good, and many do some serious harm.

[Old Hack]

I thoroughly enjoyed my MA and learned a lot. But little about the mechanics of how publishing works, or how to write a synopsis.

What I did learn was how to deal with criticism, and how to improve my work even after I was convinced it was all ready as good as it could be. Having spent countless sessions workshopping novel extracts, short stories, and poetry (my own work and work from the other students), I no longer mind when someone says negative things about my work. I'll listen, and see what I can salvage from the wreckage. If I disagree with them I don't (as my nieces say) go off on one; instead, I have the confidence to know when my work is good or not. It's a useful thing.

[Hang of Thursdays]

Also, if you find the intro to creative writing courses too...shallow, I guess, spread too thinly to cover any ground in detail (and, of course, intro courses aren't really *meant* to cover everything in depth. An I. to C.W. class will introduce you to all aspects of it, poetry, fiction, plays, etc...) then how about looking into the Advanced Fiction class at your university, if it's offered? Some schools have prerequisite courses (namely, the Intro course) but this can sometimes be waived at the permission of the teaching professor. If you go and talk to him/her and tell him/her that you're REALLY interested in writing fiction, but don't want to spend time working in genres you've really got no interest in, I'm sure he'll acquiesce. Be prepared to bring writing samples.

[Steve 211]

All I can give you is my own experience, having gotten a degree in Creative Writing at Emerson College, home of the literary journal Ploughshares. I had classes with Dennis McFarland and Jack Gantos among others, and while I liked them a good deal as people, what I didn't know going in was that the college focuses on literary writing. As in Eudora Welty, Paul Bowles, Flannery O'Connor, John Cheever, and so on. Works I wasn't interested in at all, and which actually kept me back from writing in the style I liked to read.

Many colleges offer more than that now, fortunately, so just be aware of who's teaching and what genres will be covered. (For a humorous look at sci-fi writers at the Iowa Writer's Workshop, check out Joe Haldeman's site and read his extended biography.)

http://home.earthlink.net/~haldeman/biolong.html

In short, if you want to write literature, or work in publishing or journalism, then yeah, college is almost a necessity.
But if you just want to write well, and read great works that resonate with you, then find where your passion is, what books you enjoy the most, and go to the author's websites and find where and how they learned. All the information is there. I did it all before the internet, and you can, too. There's a great lineage there that you can discover on your own, such as how James Herriot learned from reading Conan Doyle and Conan Doyle learned from reading Bret Harte.

Louis L'Amour also learned from Conan Doyle, and he dropped out of high school because "School was interfering with my education." As he worked in the merchant marine and rode railroad cars, he read everything he could put his hands on. Same with Jack London.

Of course, without determination, a clear eye on the world, a talent for words, an understanding of people, and a skillful way at portraying drama, they wouldn't have made it anywhere, but that goes for those in college as well.
The best thing about college is the camaraderie and being exposed to books, music, and cultures that you wouldn't ordinarily know. But you can save yourself much money and time by getting an apartment in a college city or travelling and going to youth hostels and so on. Then you'd actually have something to write about than your experience in slogging through term papers on "Industrialism in 19th Century Novels."

So yeah, a great deal of writers have gone to college, and many, like David Morrell and Michael Cunningham, teach at universities. But many of those, including John Grisham, Conan Doyle, Keats, and recent Nebula winner Elizabeth Moon, studied law or medicine or science, which gives their works a breadth and depth that sets them apart.

There's also many writers who went to college and then dropped out, including Anne Lamott, August Wilson, Cormac McCarthy, Gordon Parks, John Muir, Mark Twain, Richard Bach, Sam Shepard, Tom Stoppard, Walt Whitman, and Woody Allen.
To sum up, it all comes down to applying yourself. Focus and discipline and getting your work out there. You can do that in college or on your own, but in the end that's the major determining factor of whether you'll succeed in what you start.


No university exists that can provide an education. What a university can provide is an outline, to give direction and guidance. The rest one has to do for oneself.
- Louis L'Amour

I don’t think a college degree is necessary to become a good writer. I’m not even certain it’s an advantage. College probably won’t hurt you – if you don’t take it too seriously. But far more important, I believe, is broad general experience: living as active a life as possible, meeting all ranks of people, plenty of travel, trying your hand at various kinds of work, keeping your eyes, ears, and mind open, remembering what you observe, reading plenty of good books, and writing every day – simply writing.
- Edward Abbey

[inanna]

I don’t think a college degree is necessary to become a good writer. I’m not even certain it’s an advantage. College probably won’t hurt you – if you don’t take it too seriously. But far more important, I believe, is broad general experience: living as active a life as possible, meeting all ranks of people, plenty of travel, trying your hand at various kinds of work, keeping your eyes, ears, and mind open, remembering what you observe, reading plenty of good books, and writing every day – simply writing.
- Edward Abbey




To me, that quote right there is the perfect advice. Spot-on :Thumbs: