Dialogue tag line: Bill said -or- said Bill

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Al Stevens

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(I considered putting this in "Ask the Editor," but those discussions are all about getting published, not how to write.)


The possibilites for tag line positioning when the tag noun is not a pronoun:
  1. "I'm going home. It's where I belong," <tag line>.
  2. "I'm going home," <tag line>. "It's where I belong."
  3. <tag line>,"I'm going home. It's where I belong."
  4. "I'm going home," <tag line>, "to be where I belong."
<tag line> in this exercise is either "Bill said" or "said Bill" (without the quote marks, of course, in which "Bill" can be a noun, such as "Bill," "the piano player," etc.)


I raise this question for two reasons.
  1. Whenever I find tag lines discussed, the discussion uses "he said" and "she said," in which case the order is obvious.
  2. Although this issue is rarely addressed, I have found differing opinions in tutorials about the correct usage, and the writers of those tutorials are always adaant.
Here are the adamant opinions:
  1. It has to be "Bill said."
  2. It has to be "said Bill."
  3. It can be either, but use one or the other sparingly.
Possibility 3 should be "Bill said." But how about the others?

Opinions?
 
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maestrowork

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Either way.

I favor "he said." But occasionally "said he" could be useful: "I'm going home," said he who should remain nameless.
 

Dr.Gonzo

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I prefer 'Bill said'. It flows better; whenever I read something that does it the other way, for some reason I pause.
 

Lost World

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The truth: it really doesn't matter. They're all correct, and it's nice to mix up tag placement now and then. Keeps things interesting.
 

dpaterso

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Here are the adamant opinions:
  1. It has to be "Bill said."
  2. It has to be "said Bill."
  3. It can be either, but use one or the other sparingly.
That's the thing, adamant or otherwise they're still only opinions, not gospel. Use whichever you prefer. I lean towards "Bill said" in this case. When I'm writing fantasy, sometimes I go the other way. And I use "said" as often as needed, i.e. whenever the speaker's identity needs clarified.

-Derek
 

RobJ

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Al, you mentioned tutorials, but you haven't mentioned published fiction. Have you checked the usage in the books you've read? If so, what did you find?
 

Al Stevens

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Al, you mentioned tutorials, but you haven't mentioned published fiction. Have you checked the usage in the books you've read? If so, what did you find?
No, I haven't, although I should. The few fiction books I've read lately break so many rules that I would not trust them for usage guidance. I use "Bill said," but I recently read online that it is incorrect. Which is why I raised the question here. Thanks everyone for your responses.
 

RobJ

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The few fiction books I've read lately break so many rules that I would not trust them for usage guidance.
Perhaps it's the so-called rules you shouldn't trust. Read some more books. See what you find.
 

Al Stevens

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Perhaps it's the so-called rules you shouldn't trust.
And maybe I should. They've been in place for a long time, contemporary commercial fiction notwithstanding.
 

Jamesaritchie

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No, I haven't, although I should. The few fiction books I've read lately break so many rules that I would not trust them for usage guidance. I use "Bill said," but I recently read online that it is incorrect. Which is why I raised the question here. Thanks everyone for your responses.

I've found very, very, very, very few published novels that break any rules. Published novels ARE the rules. When someone tells me published novels are always breaking rules, it tells me they don't know the rules. If you don't read novels constantly, you'll play hell writing one that's worth reading.

In this case, it isn't about which is correct, it's about which sounds better, and which is used most often. Reading a few novels would have answered this question, along with a million others.

Said Bill is common in books for very young children, but extremely uncommon in adult novels. It simply does not read well to most adult ears, especially if they read very much.

The word "said" is supposed to be invisible, but when you put it first, it becomes all too visible. It throws everything out of kilter. When I find a slush pile manuscript that does this, it tells me the writer is probably not much of a reader, and, worse, it throws me out of the story. This usually means a rejection.

"Correct" is what works, what the common convention is, not most of the silly "rules" you find all over the Internet. Published novels tell you what works. Good advice that also tells you what works is always based on published novels, not on opinion.
 

Al Stevens

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I've found very, very, very, very...
This would be a good place for me to rest my case. :)
When someone tells me published novels are always breaking rules, it tells me they don't know the rules.
Perhaps you should check the credentials of such folks before forming such assumptions.
Reading a few novels would have answered this question, along with a million others.
Sounds like you think I don't read. :)
...especially if they read very much.
Yep, that's what it sounds like. :)
The word "said" is supposed to be invisible, but when you put it first, it becomes all too visible. It throws everything out of kilter.
At last. Something not ad hominem, without attitude and informative. Thank you.
...it tells me the writer is probably not much of a reader...
There you go again. I knew it was too good to be true. :)
This usually means a rejection.
Publishers used to employ editors for that. Michener credits his long-standing editor with his successes, saying he's a terrible writer but a good storyteller. But I guess publishers don't do that any more. Shows you how things have gone to hell. Michener wouldn't have gotten past your transom.
"Correct" is what works, what the common convention is, not most of the silly "rules" you find all over the Internet.
I go back a little earlier than that. Used to keep copies of Chicago Manual of Style, Elements of Style, etc, within easy reach, a shelf full of such rulebooks. But I guess that's old school. I guess we'd rather let James Patterson define what's correct.

I don't always trust common convention, which provides de facto rules that evolve from common abuse. There's a reason it's called "common," and it has given us, like, whoa, dude, a new language that I, y'know like don't find awesome.

Seriously, as an editor I had to wade through lots of invented, contrived jargon. Geek speak. Techo-babble. "Architected," "media" as a singular, misplaced "onlys," "inputting," etc. My job wasn't to reject the imperfect; it was to find the substance and fix the writing.

But, language morphs. It broke my heart when "data" got into the dictionary as a singular noun. It is our job to fight strenuously against such abominations, to stand up and yell "horse hockey" at the top of our lungs until it either goes away or into law (paraphrasing Robert Townsend.)
 

Rhubix

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From my experience most people speak in invented, contrived jargon, geek speak, and techo-babble. Not to mention colloquial jibber jabber and creative swearing. IMHO I think there's definitely a place for it in mainstream fiction. A book with a little rule bending and realism can bring life to a story that perfection might not.
It's not always appropriate but I don't think it's fair to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Also I think you've overreated to Jamesaritchie's post. If you are writing commertal fiction than published commertial fiction is the best place to look for contemporary conventions. That's not arrogant or misleading. All the books you pick up at the store are published, so they are valid examples of what people will publish.
If 100% of novels published this year break the rules and your goal is to publish a novel, best start breaking the rules. Correct doesn't always win.

As for the original question, I like answer 3. It can be either, but use one or the other sparingly. I prefer 'Bill said' but you never know when a 'said Bill' might flow better with the dialogue. Never say never.
 

Al Stevens

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From my experience most people speak in invented, contrived jargon, geek speak, and techo-babble. Not to mention colloquial jibber jabber and creative swearing. IMHO I think there's definitely a place for it in mainstream fiction.
Certainly in dialogue. Otherwise, I prefer a book that uses good English narrative.
A book with a little rule bending and realism can bring life to a story that perfection might not.
Perfection well-crafted is always a better choice. :)
Also I think you've overreated to Jamesaritchie's post.
My reaction was punctuated with smilies. Maybe they don't mean the same thing here.
Part of his response was helpful. The rest came across as juvenile posturing. I probably should have ignored it.
If 100% of novels published this year break the rules and your goal is to publish a novel, best start breaking the rules. Correct doesn't always win.
You're talking to a guy who has refused for fifty years to play junk music that others advise me to play because it is mainstream, wildly popular and would make more money. I don't think there's hope for me. But I appreciate your concern.
(Getting published is not a problem. I've done it countless times. If only they wouldn't keep changing the rules. :))
As for the original question, I like answer 3. It can be either, but use one or the other sparingly. I prefer 'Bill said' but you never know when a 'said Bill' might flow better with the dialogue. Never say never.
Thank you.
 
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Rhubix

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I probably should have ignored it.
Usually the best course of action.
You're talking to a guy who has refused for fifty years to play junk music that others advise me to play because it is mainstream, wildly popular and would make more money. I don't think there's hope for me. But I appreciate your concern.
(Getting published is not a problem. I've done it countless times. If only they wouldn't keep changing the rules. :))
I wont pretend I've any manner of wisdom, (I'm only 25) but If someone doesn't really care if they get published they could do just about anything that suited their fancy, rules be damned. They could cut all the letters out of decorative fabric and fill a warehouse with their quilt manuscript. If nothing else they'd make a good fluff piece for the news.
At first glance they might come across as a basket case, but you never know. It could be the best story you've ever read if you could suffer through it.

I'm sure there are worse sins in the library than a bit of bad grammar. At least I hope so. I've never had a knack for it but I can scratch together an okay story.
Maybe I'll be lucky and my manuscript will find a generous editor. ;)
 

Bufty

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Ad hominem stuff usually only exists in the mind of the reader looking for it.
 

dpaterso

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Question asked and answered, methinks.

It's often best just to say thanks to posters for taking time to reply, then privately go apply whatever advice you think fits.

-Derek
 
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